Hello. Just got a 7-8 month mixed large breed rescue. (They think German Shepherd/Labrador/who knows what else). I just purchased the Primal Raw frozen patties to start him on healthier food. I’m concerned about what we will do when we need to travel or if we want to take a road trip with him or something. I was considering alternating with a freeze-dried food so he gets used to both in case we need to board him or something one day. What is everyone’s opinion? Is it okay to alternate a few times a week between commercial raw, freeze-dried and throw in some cooked chicken or homemade turkey meatballs for snacks sometimes? Thank you!
My bichon currently eats kibble in the morning and Stella and Chewy freeze dried raw patties in the evening. She absolutely loves the Stella patties and not so keen on the kibble. I would like to transition her to all raw. Being that freeze dried food is so expensive, I am going to try frozen raw as it is a little better priced.
For those of you that currently feed or have in the past, which frozen raw do you like the best? Did your dog do particularly well with a certain brand? There are so many brands that it is hard to choose even after reading numerous reviews. Besides Stella and Chewy my local pet shop carries Primal, Answers, Tuckers, Small Batch, Instinct and a few others I believe. Thanks for your help.
This will be a long post.
So, with the new “grain free scare” I’ve been thinking about trying raw or freeze dried raw. I was looking at primal products but couldn’t figure out why the nutrition profiles were so different from their raw vs. freeze dried. On the website they state that their freeze dried is exactly the same as their raw except the moisture is removed. So I wrote them to find out more. Below is my e-mail exchange so far….
I’m new to raw and looking for a lower fat option. I’m on the fence between raw frozen and freeze dried and was looking over the products on your website to see if any fit the bill of what I was looking for.
I noticed your frozen raw rabbit formula was low fat at 17% protein and 5% fat.
I then looked at the freeze dry formula and was surprised to see the protein is listed at 50% and the the fat is 28%.
When I did the math to convert the frozen formula to a dry matter basis I got that the protein should be 58% and the fat should be 17%
17 / 29 x 100 = 58% for protein
5 / 29 x 100 = 17% for fat
Did I do the math wrong? I don’t understand why the protein and fat is so different on for your frozen vs freeze dried rabbit formula if the ingredient are the same.
If you could explain, that would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you for contacting us. I can see how the math can get confusing. The nutritional values on our site are listed on an as-fed basis. Of course you’ll see that when you compare the guaranteed analysis of our freeze-dried formula to our raw frozen formula, the protein and fat levels in the freeze-dried varieties appear to be elevated at first glance. However, the key to understanding this difference lies in the moisture content. Since the moisture has been removed in the freeze-dried product, this causes the protein and fat levels to increase. For best feeding results, we recommend rehydrating with water. The weight of a freeze-dried nugget weighs less than that of a raw nugget because moisture has been removed. Nutritionally, a raw nugget is the same as a freeze-dried nugget when rehydrated or consumed with water.
I understand that the values are listed on as fed basis…but my question is regarding why the math doesn’t add up from your raw to freeze dried formula. If you re-read my original email you’ll see I’ve done the math to convert you raw formula to a dry formula and the values don’t match what is listed on the freeze-dried product.
If you convert the raw rabbit recipe into a dry matter basis, the protein should be 58% and the fat should be 17%. However that’s not what’s listed on the product. So I’m wondering how did you determine the values for the freeze dried formula?
(EDIT: I didn’t get a reply to the above email, so I wrote to them again.)
I haven’t heard back from anyone regarding this. Maybe I’m not asking my question in a way that makes sense. Let me try to explain…
I understand that freeze dried food will always have higher nutritional values because the moisture is removed making it a higher concentration, however, the values on your freeze dried product don’t make sense compared to your raw frozen product from a mathematical stand point.
For example, your frozen raw rabbit has a 17% protein and 5% fat. If I convert these to dry matter based on the formula on your blog (https://primalpetfoods.com/blogs/news/guaranteed-analysis-what-does-it-mean) it should be 58% for protein and 17% for fat.
% guarantee ÷ dry matter x 100
17 ÷ 29 x 100 = 58% for protein
5 ÷ 29 x 100 = 17% for fat
However, on your freeze dried rabbit nuggets the protein is listed as 53% and the fat is listed as 28%.
There is no way the fat in the freeze dried product should be that high if it’s the same ingredients/formula as the frozen raw. I’ve noticed several other of your freeze dried formula’s are listing fat at a much higher percentage than it should be.
Please explain to me how you are getting the values for your freeze dried products.
I apologize for my delay in response but greatly appreciate your patience! Please see below for assistance with your conversion:
1. The Protein/Fat content printed on the packaging is usually the exact lab result, and may depend on the source and part of the rabbit tested*.
2. Approximate average figures are generally 3 X Frozen values:
PFF Calculated Frozen : Protein (17), Fat (5) – Approximate – Calculated Freeze-dried : Protein (51), Fat (15) – Approximate
– PFF Actual Freeze-dried : Protein (50), Fat (28) – Actual lab results*(Variability in raw source)
– Customer Calculated Freeze-dried : Protein (58), Fat (17) – Approximate
We suggest using PPF calculated amount to make the final decision.
Thanks for your response. I’d like to make sure that I understand this correctly. When the lab tested both the raw and freeze dried, they got different values for fat and protein for both formula’s (even though they are the same), because different or fattier parts of the rabbit could have been used in the freeze dried batch?
The approximate average figures are generally 3x the frozen value, but it this case it’s 6x the fat. ( 5% fat in the raw rabbit vs 28% fat in the freeze dried rabbit.)
Do you lab test each batch for protein and fat content, as it seems it can vary considerably.
On the freeze dried product it states that 28% is the minimum fat content, meaning it could be higher, but not lower.
This is where I’m confused because if the raw frozen and freeze dried are essentially the same product (just with moisture removed) the freeze dried variety had a much higher fat content than the raw…meaning different batches have different fat content. So it’s impossible to say that the minimum fat in the freeze dried rabbit is 28%, right? There are batches that could have less fat depending on the source and part of the rabbit tested.
Please let me know if this is correct.
While we are required to list guaranteed analysis information in terms of minimums and maximums, the values we’ve chosen to post are not actually a minimum or a maximum. We list the actual values that we receive from our lab tests.
That doesn’t make sense to me. You’re required to list guaranteed information in terms of minimum and maximum, but you’re choosing not to? I’m not trying to be difficult, I just genuinely don’t understand. Should I disregard the minimum/maximum values on your packaging?
YOU didn’t answer my other questions. Do you test each batch for fat/protein content? How did you decide what is listed on the freeze dried package in terms of protein and fat? Did you test multiple batches and give an average or did you only test one batch and print those results on all of the packaging?
Based on your previous emails I’m assuming that the fat content on the freeze dried product is much higher than the fat listed on the frozen raw product because of “the source or part of rabbit.”
But that being said, in other batches of food a leaner rabbit source could be used making the fat content lower. So am I correct in saying the 28% fat is not the definite minimum and could be much lower in other batches depending on the rabbit source?
(I sent that last e-mail to primal on Aug 2nd, and I have not gotten a reply back since.
Does what they’re saying make sense to anyone? I thought they were required to list minimum or maximum values….any thoughts?)
Topic: Primal raw vs. freeze dry
I was looking for a lower fat raw food for my dog and noticed the primal raw rabbit recipe had 17% protein and only 5% fat. This looked like a good option. Since I don’t feed raw regularly, I thought I’d start with the freeze dried version but noticed that the protein listed was 53% and the fat was 28%. The ingredients were the same, the only difference is supposed to be that one is freeze dried.
I know that because the freeze dried product has no moisture that the values would be higher, but his seemed too high.
I calculated the raw version to a dry matter content as shown in this article: https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/choosing-dog-food/dry-matter-basis/
and I got that the freeze dried version should have 58% protein and 17% fat. Big difference from what’s listed on the freeze dried rabbit.
I email primal in a very detailed email explaining my question and asking how they determined the dry value as it didn’t match up to what I calculated. I got a very disappointing response back saying that “because the moister is removed, the value is higher in the freeze dried but both product were exactly the same.” It was very condescending and it seemed like they didn’t even read my e-mail as I had explained that I was aware of that.
Anyway, my question is, does the values that primal lists on their raw and freeze dried product make sense? Did I do the math wrong? Links for both products below.
Topic: Primal Frozen Raw Food
I’ve been giving Primal Raw to my little one for a couple of years now. I just recently noticed that although Primal Frozen Raw Food as a whole gets a 5 star and is enthusiastically recommended, the chicken, beef, and lamb only get 2.5 stars. My baby love the stuff, and has done so well on it I’m not going to change unless necessary. But I’m just curious why the 2.5 stars. Anyone have an explanation or thoughts on this. Thanks
Just started my close to one year old (Xmas day) puppy, Nick, on the Answers Beef. He was previously on Orijen Puppy for 8 months. I have brushed his teeth daily since I got him at 3 months old. Even with that he has some yellowing of a few teeth. I have to believe that is partially from eating kibble. I am hoping that the Answers will help in this regard. Nick loves their Goat’s milk and so far after two meals he loves the Answers Beef. I will be doing a slow transition over the next 7-10 days. He eats the Answers before touching his kibble which he has always seemed happy with.
I don’t mind the expense of the Goat’s milk and Raw food if it will help have a better, longer life. My last dog had horrible teeth and I know it contributed to his declining health and eventual cancer. I have started Nick on the recreational frozen bones from Primal since all he has had is Antlers. Not a heavy chewer. This is the easiest way for me to feed raw I think. Love to hear opinions.
Hello! I am a long time reader of DFA Forums but this is the first time I’ve actually posted anything. I have two dogs; a 4 year old minpin tripawd (Bean) and now a 4 month old Doberman/Rottweiler x puppy (Jax). Bean has done great on all and any premium food (wet, raw, kibble, he’s been on it all) but the more I read the more I want to just bite the bullet and switch fully to raw. Jax on the other hand, has had quite the hard time with kibble. I got Jax about two months ago and immediately put him on Orijen Large Breed Puppy. He’s had on and off diarrhea since I’ve had him. I figured the Orijen may have just been too much for his digestive system so I transitioned him (VERY) slowly to Natures Instinct Raw Boost Large Breed Puppy Kibble. His stools were firm for about three days until the diarrhea started again. I’ve had him tested for parasites and every malady under the sun with only negative results. Right now I just have him on cooked turkey and rice to settle his tummy until I decide on what to try next. I was hoping for some input from all of you lovely people!
I am concerned about putting a large breed puppy on raw so young, simply because I lack all of the knowledge about his nutritional needs. But so far, here are the options I’ve come up with.
Honest Kitchen Preference Base Mix mixed with a rotation of raw grinds/meats primarily from Primal and EcoPawz Raw (a local raw company in my area)
Stella and Chewy’s Frozen Raw (rotation of proteins)
Darwin’s Zoologics Line (a little out of my budget but they are sounding better and better)
No matter which I choose, I will definitely supplement with raw goat milk, yogurt, etc. I would also like some input on what kinds of meat I can buy at the grocery store. I’ve only ever bought dog raw from PFE. Sorry for the long post and I’m really looking forward to any and all input. You all rule!
Sally, Jax & Bean
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