[3dogmom]

Thanks, pugmomsandy, I appreciate the feedback. Should I give the chicken raw and with the bone? Sorry, but I am new to the raw diet and want to make sure I get it right!

[3dogmom]

Hi all,
I have recently switched my 3 hounds to a raw diet – Bravo performance dog food. I transitioned them slowly from their kibble and they have now been on the raw diet only for about 6 weeks. They LOVE the food!! The problem is that 2 of the 3 are having severely loose stools. The third has looser stools than usual, but not as bad as the others. I have added a probiotic to the mix, Purina Fortifore, which I am giving them each one packet once a day with their meals. I also supplement with Salmon oil, but I am not giving the the recommended dose of that yet because of the loose stools and gurgling tummies. I am wondering if the beef based food is too fatty for them? Should I switch to another protein source? They are a pure basset, a basset-beagle mix, and a blu etick basset mix (he’s handling the switch the best). I have scoured the net looking for help/suggestions, and so far this is the most knowledgeable forum I have found. Any and all help is truly appreciated!

[Shasta220]

Yes! definitely avoid any grains…. Where did you get this pup? Was it a breeder?! If so, that person has ZERO right to be breeding wolf dogs without knowing about the wolf’s nutritional needs! Any proper WD breeder would encourage a raw diet, or at least stress the GF and high-protein needs. DN is not a super protein-rich (animal based, not grain/plant based) and is a lousy choice for a wolf.

Sorry about the rant on wolves…. But if you have a Facebook, then try finding the group “For Sale Wolf Puppies.” I have a friend (wolf dog breeder…she breeds between about 60 and 90% WDs) who is the main admin for that page (she calls herself “Obie Wolf” on there)… I’d suggest trying to get into that group, then shoot Obie Wolf a message. She will give amazing tips on where to get meat and how much to feed.

I also agree with Hounddogmom’s suggestion about that book. It’s a very good read 🙂

[Ron M]

I was reading last week from a site called The Dog Press and one of the editors had a list of ingredients to avoid. She had on the list most of the meat meals. The reasoning
was high levels of fluoride due to the manufacturing process. I have no clue on the validity. But will pass along the link. They do seem to favor a species appropriate diet, in this case raw and variety.
She listed other ingredients that are inappropriate that I have a hard time agreeing with.
One was probiotics, I can understand in certain situations that they may be contraindicated.But I’m not sure I would throw out the baby with the bath water.
Anyways here is the link if you would like to take a look.
http://www.thedogpress.com/DogFood/Ingredients_Liquorman.asp

[Hound Dog Mom]

I would agree with Shasta220 about considering a raw diet. The book “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown would be a great starting point. If not – the only food on your list that is appropriate for large breed puppies (to my knowledge) is Wellness CORE Puppy.

[Shasta220]

Out of those options though, I’d probably go with Blue Wilderness or Core (I’m guessing it’s Wellness Core, right?). But you really should, at the very least, top with a minimum of 20-50% raw meats. Or even canned food. I still am leaning very very strongly on raw for a wolf’s diet…

[Shasta220]

Is this your first WD (wolf dog)? Wolves have different dietary needs that dogs, and kibble is usually a bad idea for them. I know some WD breeders personally, and they say that kibble containing grains can be disasterous.

I’d definitely suggest looking into a raw food. If you don’t want to take the time for that, then definitely make sure the food is grain free and has a large amount of meat…

[Wanda F]

Yes..just after I ordered Orijen on-line someone on here recommended See Spot Live Longer. I checked it out and will absolutely find a way to incorporate that into his diet either with the Orijen or without. I’ve read that Orijen is so high in protein, it can cause disgestive problems and even liver problems all though that seems doubtful. Sooo, I’m mixing current kibble (Nutrisca) and raw in hopes of getting him used to a higher level of protein. He kind of ignors the Nutrisca and waits for raw..that should be a hint. Anybody need a bag of Orijen?

[USA]

I agree with Betsy. For a dog with cancer who is not already eating a raw diet and doing well on it I would not want to add the additional bacterial load that comes with raw food. A lot of healthy dogs do very well on a raw diet and this is something worth trying in dogs who are not fighting cancer or other serious illnesses.

Kibble is highly processed and the way it is made and the ingredients that it uses are the furthest from a NATURAL diet for a canine that you can feed your dog. The fact that kibble is a dry food adds additional stress to a dog’s kidneys and liver.

If a homemade lightly cooked diet is not an option a high quality low carb canned food would be much more beneficial for all dogs than kibble but especially for a dog dealing with a serious illness.

[Danni D]

Ugh…if you can get your dog off of the Pedigree.
It’s just not good for them.
I can vouch for Pure Balance, I rotate that in my Rottie’s diet, he also gets raw, freshpet and canned. I change his kibble every bag though. But he has done well on it.
Here is a controversial one to some but I have had great luck and health- Diamond Naturals not the plain cheaper Diamond. I fed my last rot this food for 15 years along with Raw and he did fine- it is also in my current rotation. It is not a bad food but Diamond has had a history of recalls. Many other Pet food makers have had recalls. Many are skiddish about Diamond because of this but it’s not a bad food. They make many other brands as well.
You can get Diamond Naturals of all kinds for great prices at Menards.
I wish I could tell you about 4health but living where I live we don’t have many feed stores. I do want to try it though as well as Eagle Pack.
Victor is a great food for my Rot, he likes it. My Pom got sick on it but he has a sensitive belly- kibble doesn’t sit well.
I bought Authority once and found maggots so ugh…not one I would feed but I know many do.

Hey Betsy- if you don’t mind little hijack- where do you get raw meaty bones? Butcher?

• This reply was modified 11 years, 10 months ago by Danni D.

[DogFoodie]

Hi Ally,

You’re right, Omega 3’s are a great way to help with your dog’s coat and dander issues. Another great way to add Omega 3’s is with a sardine every few days. I’m talking about sardines in water that are packed in a small tin with a pull back top. You can usually pick them up at Wal-Mart for about a buck. Fresh whole food ingredients are perfect to add to your pups diet.

Also, a great way to fill up your pups tummy without adding extra calories is with frozen green beans. Because your dog’s first tract is so short, your pup will mostly eliminate the beans (poop), but the beans will create the feeling of fullness.

Here is a really great little download a friend shared with me about adding fresh whole food ingredients to your dog’s diet. It’s written by Steve Brown, a man who many feel is an expert in animal nutrition and raw feeding. The download costs $2.95, so you’ll need to ask a parent about it first. http://www.seespotlivelonger.com/home/sll/page_41/see_spot_live_longer_the_abc_way___electronic_down.html

Good luck with feeding your pup! You’re obviously a very loving and attentive pet owner!

[DogFoodie]

I’d opt for a lightly cooked diet over a raw diet and I’d choose canned over kibble, for a dog with cancer.

[LexiDog]

If you are not into making a homemade food (I am not at this moment but may later consider it), you can try commerical raw dog food. Stella & Chewys and Primal are wonderful. Those are what I feed my dog.

Kibble – Dogswell Live Free has a low glycemic impact becuase they use peas and chickpeas for their starch. Compared to Science Diets W/D (Glucose Management formula) which has 51% carbs, Live Free looks pretty good. Their canned food is supposed to be even lower in carbs.

I just emailed them to find out their carb & ash content. Below is what they replied with:
Carbs
LIVE FREE Puppy Chicken 21%
LIVE FREE Adult Chicken 23%
LIVE FREE Senior Chicken 24%
LIVE FREE Adult Lamb 21%
LIVE FREE Adult Salmon 22%
LIVE FREE Adult Turkey 22%

Ash
LiveFree Puppy Chicken 7.8%
LiveFree Adult Chicken 7.7%
LiveFree Senior Chicken 8.8%
LiveFree Adult Lamb 8.7%
LiveFree Adult Salmon 8.7%
LiveFree Adult Turkey 9.7%

Hope this helps!

[Bobby dog]

Marie: For ticks you use it like a flea powder

Akari:
I used to buy Shoo Flea by the Natural Vet, really liked it but just didn’t fit into the budget anymore. The main ingredient in Shoo Flea is food grade DE and it is scented with a capsule of herbs and essential oils. I began using plain food grade DE several years ago as a flea powder and for treating pet beds, floors etc with good results. Keep in mind it does not kill them immediately.

I have seen warnings about DE clogging vacuums, it has never happened to me. I just make sure I take their bedding outside to shake them out then throw them in the washer. I have only had to use DE on the floors in my basement so I swept the floor well before vacuuming.

Be careful not to inhale the dust or let your pets inhale the dust.

I have never fed it to my cats or dogs.

The one drawback I found using it as a flea powder is that it can dry their skin. I always use organic unrefined coco oil as a food supplement when using it. Fish oil would probably be a good choice also. I use CVS 1000 mg fish oil capsules for Bobby and the cats. The good thing about coco oil is it can be applied externally. As a flea deterrent I had the best luck using coco oil applied directly to the skin, but it can be messy for your furniture. Coco oil does very well at soothing skin irritations like flea bites. I apply DE first, then coco oil if needed in certain areas. I used coco oil daily on Bobby last summer. Hopefully I won’t have to treat flea bites this year because his yeasty smell is gone and his skin is healthy since I have improved his diet. So far so good!

Good thing I checked the links I saved on DE, some of them no longer existed.

http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/degen.html
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/benefits-diatomaceous-earth/
http://www.vetinfo.com/using-diatomaceous-earth-to-worm-pets.html
http://www.diatomaceousearth.com/?gclid=CJ2Dt8S5p74CFaQF7Aod5g4AcA
http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/parasites/a/Diatomaceous-Earth-For-Flea-Control.htm
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://wolfcreekranch1.tripod.com/defaq.html&sa=U&ei=9l5xU7PaKPLHsATEvYCQCA&ved=0CB0QFjAA&sig2=DCYxeQKLHzMoXm6BYZtcxw&usg=AFQjCNHLDmVU6sLMs22UbzqWxC0OnCzAVw

[jakes mom]

The See Spot Live Longer site has a booklet called the ABC diet. One day a week is all fresh/raw food, the other days are the usual diet, dry, canned whatever you’ve been feeding. He also mentions that instead of one whole day you can spread the fresh menu items over the course of a week, just adjusting the kibble amounts. So apparently he doesn’t see a problem with mixing kibble and raw.

[Shawna]

Great advice BCnut!! 🙂

Hi Kayley L,

BCnut is absolutely correct. Kibble is the absolute WORST thing you can feed a dog with kidney disease. My dog was born with kidney disease, diagnosed at age one and will be eight years old next month. She has been on HIGH protein raw her whole life. Much higher than 30% even. Her raw diet (I rotate between proteins and brands) ranges from 45 to 54% on a dry matter basis.

The original research suggesting protein was problematic was actually done on rats not dogs or cats. Later research, done on dogs, has disproven the original research but for some reason vets cling to this original research. Nutritionist Mary Straus has some different sources discussing the protein myth on her page here http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidneyprotein.html

Phosphorus can be a probelm at any stage of the disease but it isn’t always a problem in the earlier stages. Audrey, in her eight years with kidney disease, has never been on a lower phosphorus diet. Mary lists generally accepted amounts of phosphorus in the diet for the different stages of the disease on this page. http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidneydiet.html#start

When digested, proteins break down into amino acids. The body uses those amino acids to make antioxidants (glutathione), enzymes, new cells etc. What the body doesn’t use ends up as blood urea nitrogen. How well the body uses the amino acids in any particular protein is called bioavailability. I noticed last night that Dr. Foster’s and Smith website has a good explanation of protein bioavailability. They write
“Can I tell which proteins are better than others?
Not all proteins are created equal, and some are better for pets than others. Every protein source contains different levels of amino acids and each protein is different in its ability to be broken down into amino acids. The ability of a protein to be used by the body and its amount of usable amino acids is termed biological value. Egg has the highest biological value and sets the standard by which other proteins are judged. Egg has a biological value of 100. Fish meal and milk are close behind with a value of 92. Beef is around 78 and soybean meal is 67. Meat and bone meal and wheat are around 50 and corn is 45. Things like hair and feathers would be very high in protein but would be down at the bottom of the list for biological value.” http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?aid=459

Removing chemicals in the environment that have to be cleared through the kidneys can help too. These chemicals may not be harmful but as another thing for the kidneys to clear they still can be problematic. Anything that could be inhaled or get absorbed through the paw could be potential problems. Giving clean (filtered) water can be very important too.

Mary has some really good info on her site if you get a chance to read through it all. Nutritionist Lew Olson of b-naturals.com also has some data on her site (along with a couple recipes). Darwin’s has a high protein, lower phosphorus raw diet that was formulated by Dr. Barbara Royal DVM if interested in raw but not wanting to have to prepare it.

There’s so much more that you can do as well. Let us know if you are interested in the additional info.

Thanks BCnut! 🙂

• This reply was modified 11 years, 10 months ago by Shawna.

[theBCnut]

Dogs with kidney issues need to be on canned or raw food. Getting moisture into their diets is most important. The reason that vets always jump on the protein issue is that protein contains phosphorus and excess phosphorus can cause problems in advaned stages of kidney disease. You do not need to restrict protein in early stages, but the protein needs to be good quality and less processed, which kibble is not. I’ll see if I can get Shawna to come to the forum side and help you.

[RescueDaneMom]

I have no clue why it was removed from the list but if your dogs are doing well on it, I wouldn’t stop feeding it because it is not on the Editor’s List. Keep in mind that the list is the opinion of a few people (granted they are knowledgeable). If I had to guess, I doubt it’s because of their company or practices. It may be because of price or availability issues. I really can’t think of any other issues that would keep it from the list. They are an impeccable company.

I have been feeding HK for 6 years. I first started using it as a topper. Now I use it as the base of my dog’s diet. I feed Max 50% HK (Embark, Love, and Keen). The other 50% is made of raw and additions like eggs and kefir. Occasionally I will make homecooked food for a change. In my personal opinion, HK is better for your dog than any of the kibbles on the EC list because it is less processed than kibble. It is dehydrated so it is exposed to low heat but dehydration is a much gentler process than extrusion which is what it takes to make kibble. I made the switch to feeding half HK because I didn’t want to feed kibble anymore and it is so much more convenient than homemade food.

I hope that this post is helpful to you. Also, if you are a regular user, I would contact HK about buying directly from them. They give a bulk discount as well and you earn points toward free food with every purchase.

[LexiDog]

So, I am learning that canned food is better than kibble. Right now my dog is on Stella & Chewy’s frozen raw but I like to switch it up, so I was giving her kibble. Now, I am thinking of adding canned in the mix. I have also had samples of Grandma Lucy’s and my girl liked those, but I have yet to feed a whole bag. That is also something I want to try too.

Couple questions, is it safe to switch foods, including forms of food (raw, canned, freeze dried and kibble) often? I have read the Rotating Food posts, so it is good to switch foods/proteins, but how much is too much? If my girl is doing ok, no loose stool, vomiting, ect..then is this acceptable? Is there anything that I should worry about?

I have really only given her raw or kibble. I want to maybe throw a couple cans of food in here and there to mix things up. The brands I was thinking about are: Weruva Human Style, Tiki Dog and ZiwiPeak. Anyone have input on these? How did your dog do on them? They all seem to be top notch and are all rated 5 starts.

Any thoughts on the “Extreme Rotational Diet” or the canned foods is appreciated!!

[Janie]

I wrote articles about raw diet in my blog essentiallydogs.com. It is great to hear that others are learning the importance of a proper diet. About switching brands, there is really no need to do that. I simply switch the formulas. For example, one day beef, next day chicken… I feed my girls Barfworld. B stands for biologically, A stands for appropriate, R is Raw, F is Food. I have arranged that people who mention essentiallydogs.com will get free shipping for a year. In order to get that promotion, you have to speak directly to Al. I made the arrangement with him. 1-866-282-2273. Vital Essentials DOES look like a good one, but my dogs have done so well with Barfworld. I DEFINATELY prefer raw to dehydrated or freeze dried.

[Janie]

My biggest issue with dog food (most dry & canned), is the vitamin premix. If the ingredient label contains a list of vitamins & minerals, it is EXTREMELY likely that those vitamins are sourced from China. China is contaminating products with melamine which is why dogs are becoming ill and dying. It is NOT salmonella. Dog food manufacturers are not required to disclose the sources of ingredients. ONLY where the product is manufactured. I stick with a raw food diet. i wrote extensitely about these issues on my website essentiallydogs.com. You can type keywords on the website search bar. Raw, salmonella, and FDA are good keywords to search.

[Gloraidy R]

I’m also looking for a free of synthetic vitamins and minerals, grain free/good for sensitive dogs to allergies, and i can make it into a rotational dry kibble diet(cans are too expensive to feed to large dogs and i dont have the fridge space for a raw/home made diet). I recently heard of different studies (done with humans, not dogs so it might/not apply) where the researchers compared the health of people who took synthetic vitamins from pills and those that took their vitamins from their diet(vegetables, fruits, meats ect.). They found that those that took synthetic vitamins had higher occurrences of cancer than those who ate their naturally occurring vitamins in foods. Here are two sources where you can get this info from: http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/selenium-vitamin-e-supplements-increase-decrease-prostate-cancer-risk-201402287059 , http://www.cancer.org/healthy/eathealthygetactive/acsguidelinesonnutritionphysicalactivityforcancerprevention/acs-guidelines-on-nutrition-and-physical-activity-for-cancer-prevention-diet-cancer-questions
“Can nutritional supplements lower cancer risk?
There is strong evidence that a diet rich in fruits, vegetables, and other plant-based foods may reduce the risk of cancer. But there is no proof at this time that supplements can reduce cancer risk. Some high-dose supplements may actually increase cancer risk.”

so please help me find one >.< for my very special adopted senor furbabies.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 11 months ago by Gloraidy R.

[Danni D]

I just wanted to say thanks (from Osux) to the both of you and your advice. I feel like you guys along with my vet (who loves premium foods) will get down to the bottom of my little Pom’s belly aches. You guys turned my frustration around. I was about to give up and give in to the Purina/Science Diet temptation.
So thank you and I appreciate all the advice. 🙂
Danni

[Steven K]

Please provide input/suggestions, and if possible, those with German Shepherds. Thank you very much!

A quick intro-wife and I used to raise Rotties. I always had German Shepherds growing up. We are now 80% empty nesters and recently bought a GS puppy-male. On Monday he was 10 wks old. I am currently mixing Taste of the Wild High Prairie and Fromm Four Star Nutritionals Grain-Free (Dry) Beef Frittata. I wet it w/ warm water. He loves it, clean bowl at every meal. For reward treats we’ve been using Orijen & Zukes and baby carrots, both cooked and raw. I know raw don’t get 100% digested, but he loves crunchy on those. He loves Orijen, but they are expensive.
Again, wanting opinions and suggestions from those that have been raising Shepherds as we are new to the game-been some time since we’ve had a puppy!
Thanks

[theBCnut]

Three meal a week is how many unbalanced meals you can feed if you feed twice a day. That keeps the unbalanced portion to under 20% of the diet.

Dogs do just fine on one meal a day or one meal every other day or one big meal one day and a small one the next, or whatever as long as they get the right number of calories. You can do whatever works for you and your dog.

I was talking to a prey model raw feeder a few months ago and he said that if he had a four lb chunk of meat for his dog, he gave it a four lb chunk of meat and then figured out how many days he should wait to feed it again. Same with an eight lb chunk of meat. It sounded like he was talking about wolf sized dogs, so maybe four or eight lbs of meat wouldn’t go quite as far with his dogs as it does with mine, but the idea is the same, dogs were made to gorge and fast, it’s people that have a problem with that.

[CSollers]

IMHO, many vets do not endorse a raw diet because they dont sell it. Canine nutrition is not a major portion of veterinary training.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Ray C –

I think most of us here would agree that when it comes to feeding dogs the most important thing is feeding a wide variety of species-appropriate foods. Species-appropriate foods will be high in animal-derived protein, high in moisture and minimally processed. For this reason the best option is a balanced raw diet (home prepared or commercially prepared), the next best option is a fresh cooked diet (home prepared or commercially prepared), followed by dehydrated and freeze-dried foods (many commercial raw products – such as Stella & Chewy’s, Primal, etc. – are available in both frozen form as well as freeze-dried form and there are dehydrated products such as The Honest Kitchen and NRG that are great), canned would be the next best option and kibble would come in last as the worst thing to feed. If you do have to feed some kibble for budget or time related reasons don’t fret – there are some decent kibbles one the market and you can always “top” the kibble with a more species-appropriate food form to increase the overall quality of the meal. For a puppy you will want to make sure the food that you feed is either approved for “growth” or for “all life stages” (may also read approved for “growth and maintenance”). Head over to the review section of the site and look through the 4 and 5 star foods to find some you want to try. And remember – don’t pick just one food! Rotating is very important, feeding just one food over time will lead to a weak gut (these are the dogs you hear about that get diarrhea/upset stomachs when their owners try to switch their food – don’t let that be your dog!).

Good luck and congrats on the new puppies! 🙂

• This reply was modified 11 years, 11 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.
• This reply was modified 11 years, 11 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Wanda F]

Didn’t even realize there were premixes. Thanks so much for the info. The veternarians Brewer has seen don’t know as much about canine nutrition as you guys do; best $19.99 I’ve ever spent. Why is it most vets. recommend/prescribe corn based food, typically Purina? I walked out of one office with a 6 pound bag ($26.99) and the first 3 ingredients
were rice, corn gluten and whole grain corn. Another vet wouldn’t even discuss a raw diet; thought Brewer would choke on the raw bones and get Ecoli or something.
I think the pre-mixes are a good idea; one meal raw, one kibble. What do you know about Nutrisca/Dogswell?I was surprised it wasn’t listed in Editor’s Choice.

[Steven A]

I switched my dogs from RAW diet to Wellness Brand Core Ocean without any problems. They went through 1 12 pound bag and for the most part enjoyed it. I decided to move them to Small Breed Core. I transitioned them from half and half Ocean and Small Breed. After a week they were on 100% Small Bread. That is when the SH*T it the fan literally.
After three days on Core Small Breed they had the runs bad 6 to 7 Bowel movements a day. All over the house. My poor wife was stuck with the situation while I was out of town. I returned the Small Breed today in exchange for a small bag Ocean and one of Wild Game. They ate a meal of the Ocean although my male is not to fond of it( he liked it at first but now is temperamental with it). He will not finish his dinner. I’m thinking of mixing the Wild Game and Ocean to get him a more palatable combination. For now it’s Ocean and wait and see if they get back to normal.

[Sue’s Zoo]

I have two large pups (10m, 95lbs; 7m, 68lbs). Thanks to this website I’m now raw feeding though I’ve stressed about it quite a bit (mostly unnecessarily I”m sure). But when I talked to my holistic vet she suggested if I needed more bulk in diet especially when problems occur, oats would be the way to go. I haven’t researched this further but thought I’d pass it along as something you could check further.

Good luck!

[theBCnut]

If you were starting a raw diet, I would recommend consumable bones and yes, we do feed raw chicken bones, as well as turkey, duck, quail, etc., just not cooked. But for a kibble fed dog that needs some chewing satisfaction and some teeth cleaning, I recommend rib bones, pork, lamb, goat, beef. These bones are pretty safe for your dog to eat the whole thing, if he really loves chewing, but they provide a bit more challenge, so do a great job on teeth. You can get a slab of ribs and ask the butcher to cut them into individual ribs. Whole beef ribs are probably a bit big for your dog so you would want to have him cut those in half unless you find short ribs. Give one a couple times a week.

[Shasta220]

Wolf shepherd as in wolf hybrid? I’ve never owned a hybrid (well, except for my 25% guy, but that hardly counts). But I have friends who raise and train hybrids for pets – they only feed their wolf hybrids a raw diet. They say kibble isn’t good for a Wolfdog at all, especially anything grain-inclusive.

Other than that, definitely check out the large breed thread. Lots of helpful advice on there 🙂

[T]

Hey, everyone! Glad to see this discussion… One of my favorite topics.

As for proteins, different people classify them in different ways, but in general:
Hot: venison, lamb
Warm/hot: chicken
Neutral: Beef, rabbit, duck
Cool: turkey, fish, pork

Some people say beef and turkey are also warm. Since most animals are eating chicken, or lamb when I meet them, I end up recommending beef, turkey, duck, rabbit and fish a lot. I am in Phoenix, AZ, very dry and hot much of the year. Seems like animals can tolerate the warmer proteins in the winter, though. Seasonality should influence food choice as well as the constitution of the animal (hyper/”fire” animals may benefit from cooler foods).

It’s OK to feed a little bit of warming food with the cooling diet! Balance is the key word. Also, the cooking method has influence on food energetics. For example, raw lamb would be cooler than boiled lamb. Boiled lamb would be cooler than baked lamb, etc. Green veggies are cooling, in general. Dairy is cool and damp (now I know why I get sinusitis from eating a lot of ice cream!).

I am dreaming of putting together a seminar on the topic of pet foods, food energetics, etc. one day.

Tabitha Thompson, DVM CVM
http://naturalalternativesvet.com

[Susan]

How do you know its food allergies?? You sure they dont have Enviornment allergies, My boy gets itchy red paws & itchy skin & he has enviornment allergies, only 1-5% of dogs will have true food allergies, Im reading a book at the moment & its rare for dogs to have food allergies, Dr Rob Zammit writes, the number of dogs that really have a food allergy is fewer than the number of dogs diagnosed with the condition, far too often, if a dog has a non-seasonal propensity to scratch it is diagnosed as having a food allergy without proper testing..the only way you’ll know if its food is you must do an elimination diet, A reasonable elimination diet is cooked rice & lamb, no snacking inbetween meals,.In the case of true food allergy improvement will be seen after 7 days with the dogs skin looking normal by the end of 3 weeks. If ur dogs improve on an elimination diet it could be useful to include additives such as polyunsaturated oil, omega oils & other natural oils found in various herbs, the critical thing is to add only 1 additive at a time. The best starting point is omega oils add this a the recommended dose for aleast 6 weeks , if there’s no deterioration in symtoms then add another additive can be given if the lamb & rice is working then the next additive should be in the form of raw bone, these must be sheep origin, so use mutton flaps, lamb necks or brisketbones from sheep again no other additives must be given for another 6 weeks. You may want to pick another meat, but only use the raw meaty bones from that animal….also bathing should be done weekly with a good oatmeal base shampoo too keep the oils in the skin, if ur using all those product they are not working maybe its a time for a change with products, I use Malaseb medicated shampoo & I saw an improvement within 3 weeks, skin started growing back also Blackmores has a excellent dog range called Paw (Pure Animal wellbeing) I also uses the Paw Nutriderm replenishing conditioner this can be left on the skin moisturising the skin weekly… The basis of the diet could become a good quality super premium dry food as long as the ingredients are similar to those used during the elimnation diet…

[Shasta220]

If this food is helping, then certainly stick with it. If not, then possibly try an elimination diet….not always are allergy tests accurate. Try to do a super simple home made diet, or stay with the food (making sure she has no more allergic reactions), then add chicken for a week or two. Then try rice, or potatoes, or any other suspect allergen food. It’s time consuming, but well worth it.

Most of the time, for allergy prone dogs, home made and raw diets do the best anyway. It’d also be better since you could know exactly what goes in her bowl, no more looking at the ingredient list!

About the treats, I am disappointed with natural balance treats since they add molasses (sugar)…. Try some home made treats (keeping em simple….fruits, veggies, meat, and coconut flour or something if necessary. Bake in the oven for about an hour until nice n dried)

[Bobby dog]

Hi Jakes mom:
Then you will really appreciate the download if you, like me, are not looking to dive into a full or partial raw diet. Commercial raws are expensive for both cats and dogs. My hypothyroid kitty likes NV medallions, but won’t eat it regularily. The cost of feeding all five cats commercial raw is something I could not afford.

I would rather prepare my own raw diet rather than use a commercial if I were to feed it anyway. I have been researching them and I need to gain more knowledge about the needed protein/fat/vitamin levels for dogs and cats to be sure I don’t over or under supplement and cause health problems. It is going to take much more time for me to research a raw diet to do it right and time is limited for me right now.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi katj813 –

It’s great that you’re adding wet food to your dog’s dry food. Wet food is actually much healthier than dry food – especially if you go with a good quality product. The reasons for this is that wet food more closely resembles a dog’s natural diet – high in moisture, higher in protein and less processed. Providing high quality (unprocessed) protein is especially important for seniors (such as your boy) because as dogs age they become less efficient at breaking down dietary protein yet their body’s need for the amino acids that protein requires doesn’t diminish.

Some reasonably priced and highly rated canned options you may want to consider are 4Health (sold at Tractor Supply), Kirkland Cuts in Gravy (sold at Costco), Pure Balance (sold at Walmart), Natural Life (sold at Walmart and some grocery stores), Whole Earth Farms (sold at Petco, specialty retailers and many online retailers) and By Nature 95% Meat (sold at specialty retailers and online retailers). All of these options are, to the best of my knowledge, around the same price or cheaper than Nutro’s canned food.

Some other options would be using a dehydrated food as a topper. Dehydrated foods, when re-hydrated, are similar in consistency to canned food and when re-hydrated tend to be cheaper on a cup per cup basis.

You could also consider adding healthy human food toppers such as leftover lean meats, tinned sardines or salmon (great source of omega 3’s), cage free eggs (raw or cooked – also a great source of omega 3’s), plan yogurt (probiotics) or kefit (probiotics). Just be sure that if you use unbalanced extras like these that they account for less than a quarter of the meal or else you could risk throwing off the nutritional balance of his food.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 11 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Shasta220]

It seems like I have heard around here that allergy tests are usually very inaccurate. You can take the same dog in for a test three different times and have each result differ. I’d try an elimination diet for a while, using these suspect foods (usually done by a home made simple diet and adding one suspect allergen at a time to see if a reaction occurs).

It’ll take a while for an elimination diet, but that’s about the only way you can tell for sure.

I don’t know too many foods’ ingredient lists. Seems like Victor uses Sorghoum instead of rice/barley as the carb source. I know a home made/raw diet is tricky to do, but it might be easier if you could possibly grind the meat/supplements and portion out daily meals in the freezer? Then when you take her to the pet sitter, you can just give her a container. This might be a possibility at least until you could find a food that works well 🙂

Also agree with aquariangt, there will probably be no easily accessible kibble that avoids all those ingredients (assuming that she really /does/ react to them all), so canned may be a better option since it’s much easier to avoid problem ingredients.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 11 months ago by Shasta220.

[Randi M]

Hey! I am looking for a little help. I recently had my 4 year old Boston Terrier allergy tested. I just got the results back and am having a very difficult time finding an appropriate food for her so I’m hoping others can help!

Her list of food allergies include
-chicken
-turkey
-peas
-carrots
-eggs
-barley
-tomato
-rice
-soybean
-corn
-white potato

Does anyone here know of any foods that don’t include these ingredients? I am having no luck with any of our local pet stores. It has been suggested I try a raw diet for her but I am hoping to avoid this! I work 12 hour shift work and have to take her to a “sitter” while I work so a dry food would be best.

My vet suggested “Iams Veterinary Diet Skin and Coat Plus KO”. I haven’t heard many positive reviews on Iams or this food so I am unsure.

I have just transitioned her to Nature’s Variety Instinct Lamb Meal. This one is free of all her allergens with the exception of peas. Peas are the third ingredient on the list. I had no idea she was allergic to peas and I had never noticed a reaction to them before. I would really like to keep her on a 4-5 star food.
Thank you in advance for any help!!

[Bobby dog]

Hey C4c:
K3 can be listed several ways, one way is Menadione sodium bisulfate complex. It is one ingredient that is a pet peeve of mine (among others). A few years ago in one of my anatomy classes my Professor discussed K3 and I guess it just stuck in my head. Here’s some good info about it being included in pet food recipes (they explain it better than I ever could). There are many other sites that have info too, but probably the dogfoodproject IMO explains it a little more in depth and keeps it simple.

/choosing-dog-food/menadione-in-dog-food/
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=menadione

My cats do eat some food with K3 in their rotation; Purina being one of them. If I could get them to eat better quality canned food all the time I would, but they are stubborn and we all know you can end up with terrible health problems if you starve a cat. One of the reasons I researched the food ingredients for my “grocery store list” of pet food. If they are going to be addicted to Purina, the least I can do is find the best recipes out of all of their lines.

I do feel bad about kibble ingredients, but not near as bad when I first found this site. I feel I am making more informed decisions about the quality of kibble I am feeding and now it is only half of Bobby’s diet and the cats are only getting at most 1/8 C /day of kibble. So as Jakes mom wrote, “when you know better, you do better.”

Come on the raw journey with us!! lol At least I have Bobby the garbage disposal when my raw selections don’t go over well with the cats. Me and him will be finishing up the Kefir. lol

Also, on that Little Big Cat site I found an article about probiotics for cats. My kitty is starting to turn his nose up to Kefir. So I am researching what human probiotics I can supplement him with, nice site. 🙂

[crazy4cats]

Bobby dog-
While I thought the article was very informative. It makes me feel bad that I feel any kibble to my cats and it is the majority of what my dogs eat. 🙁 Moving forward, I have been working to improve all their diets over the past year. 🙂 You guys actually have me thinking about trying to add some raw to the cats diet. I do worry about their teeth. There is no way I would be able to catch 4 cats to brush their teeth! So, chicken gizzards, huh? Hmmm, gonna look in to it. I was wondering about the K3 in the cat food. Is that how it is listed in the ingredients? I don’t really know what it is.

Akari-
Yes, you are definitely turning in to a crazy cat lady. You are laughing at the cat taking food off the counter. Non cat people would be mad. I’m so proud of you! 🙂

[Susan]

Hello, Its the bowel that is rumbling not their tummy, My boy was suffering rumbling of the bowel (Tummy) & vet said it was Colitis & he needed a low fat diet, since Ive had Patch on a low crude fat & low fat diet he has not had rumbling of the tummy (Colitis)… Ive also read that dogs that suffer from Colitis, Pancreatitis & IBD are better off not eating kibble as kibble is harder to digest & some kibbles are high in crude fat & very hard, Ive read that dogs are better off on a Raw diet or cooked Diet, I boil chicken Breast boiled pumkin & 1/2 egg & mash it all up so it all digested.. I buy 1 kilo of chicken breast cook then freeze, I also do the same with the pumkin, I cut up in small pieces boil then freeze, the egg I boil every second day & just take out the chicken pumkin frim freezer the night before, I still give Patch his kibble at night only but its a low residue kibble made by Eukanuba called Intestinal it breaks up easy, but if ur in America they dont sell this vet diet, its called Iams but the ingredients are different not as good as the Eukanuba Intestinal..If you dont want to cook maybe look for a lower crude fat kibble that’s not as hard, I found if the kibble has Potato or sweet potato the kibble will be hard also the grainfree kibble seem to be very hard. Just add some water to a couple of kibbles in a glass & wait 1 minute then see if u can they crush the kibble inbetween 2 spoons. A good kibble should just break up.. I found the Holistic Select adult health kibbles aren’t hard when water is added they soften within 1 minutue then I drain the water this has also helped Patch..

[Anne R]

I have two rescue dogs – Millie (8years old, spayed female terrier mix) and Fonzie (3years old, neutered male cock-a-tzu (cocker/shih tzu mix)
I have issues with both, but the main one at present is with Millie who has a bout of mild/moderate pancreatitis. This is the second time she has had it, with a more serious incident two years ago. Her CPL reading is 360, which is way above the reference range of 0-200 ug/l and her Red Blood Cell count, hemoglobin, cholestrol and lipase readings are way up as well.
For the past 6 – 8 weeks I have been feeding them Natures Variety Raw Bites in the honest belief that I was doing the very best for them. They both seemed to like it and have shiny coats etc but the end result with Millie (who is the pickiest eater on the planet!) is pancreatitis and the end result with Fonzie is excessive weight gain – 2kg+ since I began this diet!! I am devastated as Millie was actually enjoying her food for the first time ever (she has always refused dry kibble) but what good is that if she is suffering illness as a result?! To make things worse I was over-feeding them up to a few days ago, which may have caused the pancreatitis to flare up – or maybe the food would have caused it anyway.
I desperately want to feed them a good, nourishing and wholesome food but I am completely frustrated by the choice available and the vastly differing opinions I get in the pet stores. To make matters worse I am leaving them in kennels for 12 days in just under three weeks time when I go to Ireland and I have to have them settled on a suitable food before I go. Please help!

[Ysabella J]

Hello all!

I have followed this forum for some time now but this is my first official post! Yay! Okay, so I am trying to do some research on Joint Supplements and Omega 3 fatty acids to give my 2 year old Golden Retriever (almost 3 on May 25th). We have her on a wonderful diet that consists of Orijen kibble and Merrick canned food for breakfast, a raw meaty marrow bone or a stuffed kong for a snack and a raw Stella & Chewy’s patty for dinner. Her diet does wonders for her health and we learned much about it from this website. As she gets older, I would like to put her on joint supplement. I notice from time to time her joints will pop when she gets up or stretches. We do live in an area that has all 4 seasons and in the winters it gets well below zero. Now that it is springtime we really enjoy taking her out for very long, extensive hikes. She loves to run and swim during our hikes and I would like to have her on some type of anti-inflammatory (omega-3’s?) and a joint supplement. Now I have been doing a ton of research but that just creates a million questions:

First and foremost – Should we give her joint supplements/anti-inflammatories year round? Or do we only give them on days when she will be more active than normal?

Secondly – Which joint/anti-inflammatory would you recommend? I have done research and am seriously considering the Wholistic Pet Organics product line. Has anyone used this and would they recommend it? http://www.thewholisticpet.com/products/canine-product-line/joint-support.html/ Also, does anyone give their pet krill oil vs. salmon oil for omega 3’s?

Thirdly – I am a big fan of holistic medicine and don’t usually like big brand dog medication distributors. Is there anything we can do for her joints, besides swimming and keeping her lean, that will help without any supplement?

And last but not least – if you do recommend a supplement and it’s human grade, what dosage would I give my 65 pound girl?

Thanks so much in advance for your help, I greatly appreciate it!

• This topic was modified 11 years, 11 months ago by Ysabella J.
• This topic was modified 11 years, 11 months ago by Ysabella J.

[patvl246]

Our 3 year old English Mastiff (235 Pounds) has been on a raw diet all his life. We love him dearly and wouldn’t change a thing. I wonder how some of the raw feeders are doing with the expense of raw. We use Darwins, Hare Today, a local provider in NJ called Big Dog (Dehydrated Food) and we’ll buy chicken and some organ meat from our supermarket. Our guy eats 4 to 5 pounds a day, even a 4 pound daily diet is over $10 a day. How do you guys do it?? Do you supplement with canned or kibble, is the diet homemade?? HELP

[aimee]

Hi Mountainhound,

I take a different approach when evaluating a food. I start by looking at the company and evaluate if they have sound nutritional information. I want to know who formulates the food, what their nutritional training is and ask questions about quality control.

When I contacted this company I talked with Scott Freeman who formulates the diets. He holds a degree in marketing. He has no formal nutritional training and this is quite evident when talking to him. He doesn’t understand some very basic nutritional concepts. He is not someone who I’d want formulating a diet.

The diets fall way below AAFCO in some key nutrients (Vit D, E, Zn) and the company gets around this by feed trialing one formulation and then using the family rule to put an AAFCO statement on the foods.

The nutrient analysis on the website are not the analysis of the products. The same levels are reported for nearly every product and every nutrient. Scott said nearly 6 months ago that the website just needed to be updated. Three months ago he told me he had sent all the new info to the webmaster and it would all be posted within days, but the same numbers are still posted.

Some real head scratchers can be found in the NA. The Beef Ca is reported as 2.123% and the phos as 2.95% YIKES! An inverse ratio! Scott said these numbers are incorrect but months later the same numbers are still being reported/ posted as the actual analysis. I asked him if the Beef Ca level was ever actually 2.123 % (which is a calcium level reported in many of the diets) or was it actually higher than the 2.95% Phos. He said he had no idea where the reported 2.123% Calcium number came from.

I asked him about the ash levels in the venison meals and he said it was over 25%

I asked him about quality control. He doesn’t do any testing on any of the ingredients before going into production, he relies on the spec sheets that come with the shipments. Other companies I’ve talked to do their own analysis on incoming ingredients to verify the spec sheets are accurate. He seemed uncertain as to what post production testing was done by the co packers.

I think this company is good at one thing…. marketing which makes sense as that is the only field that this company’s formal education is in.

You can draw you own conclusions but I couldn’t ever recommend this food.

[John B]

Thank you for the replys. Is there some ratio of raw diet (chicken, deer, etc) to dry kibble? Is kibble the main diet and some raw mixed in? Or is one total meal raw then other meals are kibble. She is 11 weeks old now, and only been on dry kibble. I want to slowly introduce raw meat. We give her fruit (strawberries, apples, bananas with veggies carrots, sweet potatoes,) as treats and training food.

[ab1028]

I have a picky miniature poodle puppy (9 months) who I am currently feeding Acana Regionals. However, I also want to incorporate some raw food into his diet. 99% of the time with raw food he just sniffs it and walks away. Is there some way to make it more appealing to him?

[Susan]

You said that ur dogs itch none stop, you must start with an elimination diet, I started one about 1 month ago as my boy has Pancreatitis & enviornment allergies we dont know if he has food allergies that’s why I’d say the vet suggested an elimination diet, The vet said the first month just feed boil chicken but I knew my boy could eat boil chicken so I added cooked pumkin, then when I saw he wasnt scratching or rubbing his tummy on my beautiful white rug the next week I added sweet potato within 2 days Patch was rubbing on my carpet so I stopped the sweet potato & know he cant have sweet potato or a kibble with sweet potato…. then I added pasta another NO it made him itch then I read dogs with skin problems like yeast & bacteria shouldnt eat carbohydrates, potatos, sweet potatos etc, then I added half a boiled egg & he’s been good, Im thinking of adding broccoli next.. Im reading Raw & Natural Nutrition for Dogs by Lew Olson PhD she has help me understand alot of things & this group its a easy book to read & very easy recipes, she explains what foods aren’t good & what foods are good for certain illness, like Skin problems & what causes ur dog to itch, Pancreatitis Diabetes, Gastro problems, feeding senior dogs, getting a pup onto raw etc, she has cooked recipes & what supplements to add.. in the elimination diet you cannot give any treats nothing, just that one food for 2 weeks then 2 foods so on.. you must cook all vegetables so they are fully cooked, she even suggest to pulped vegetables as dogs digestive system weren’t meant to eat vegies, here’s one of her recipes for Skin allergies a Low Glycemic regular fats Diet..this is for a 50 pound dog to be divide into two or more smaller meals per day.
8 ounces 1 cup regular fat ground beef
2 ounces 1/4 cup beef liver or kidney
2 eggs scrambled or boiled
4 ounces 1/2 cup steamed or boiled broccoli
4 ounces 1/2 cup cooked yellow crookneck squash
4 ounces 1/2 cup whole milk yogurt
Serve meat cooked or raw combined with cooked vegetables eggs & yogurt if serving meat cooked wait until meat & eggs have cooled before stirring in the yogurt…..
What I do is I cook once a fornight & freeze everything except the egg then put in fridge the night before to thaw for next day…

[FreeholdHound]

Hi Nona – fellow Greyhound owner here, so sorry to hear about Halle’s issues. Hopefully some of the wonderful knowledgable people on this forum will offer some suggestions as I’m still learning the food ropes myself.

Harry has suffered from “milkshake poo” since I got him 2yrs ago. I think I tried everything that was suggested on the Greytalk Forum (Iams Green Bag, beet pulp etc) & endless bags of failed food. One allergy test & finding out about multiple food intolerances helped a lot. Probiotics / Digestive Enzymes have helped also. Things aren’t perfect 100% of the time but I can pick it up which is a major improvement. Harry also gets raw in his diet now and things are going well.