[Hound Dog Mom]

I personally don’t use any chemicals on my dogs. I use Sentry Natural Defense topical which has pepermint oil, lemongrass oil, cinnamon oil and thyme oil and I put Earth Animals No More Ticks herbal tincture in their food 6 days per week during flea/tick season. My dogs are outdoors a lot, I comb them with a flea comb daily during flea/tick season and have never found a flea or tick on them. All their snap tests have always come up negative for lyme as well. Dogs with weak immune systems are more likely to attract parasites (both internal and external) – so the best and safest way to prevent flea infestations – imo – is building up their immune system. When my dog ate low quality kibble I always had flea issues (I used Advantix on him and he had a flea/tick collar purchased from the vet during the summer). Since I’ve switched to a grain-free raw diet, eliminated chemical flea and tick preventatives, eliminated chemical wormers and limited my use of heart worm preventative and vaccines – I’ve never had any of my dogs get fleas, ticks or intestinal parasites.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Jens –

Check out the “Transitioning to Raw” thread and the “Suggested Raw Dog Food Menus?” thread – there are a lot of tips on getting started and some recipes there. Dogaware.com is a great resource for beginners and I would also recommend purchasing a copy of “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown – it’s a very comprehensible and quick read, a great book for raw newbies. As for a grinder, I personally don’t use a grinder for my RMBs – your dogs miss out on the dental benefits if you grind the bones. I know a few people here do use grinders though, maybe one of them will pop in with what kind they have.

[Jens]

Due to having a life besides my dogs, but having the desire to feed them a healthy raw diet, I was wondering what is a simply reciept to feed them daily the same food home made mix. I have two old Malamute/Retriever mixes and two young 3 months old puppies. All are currently on Orijen (large breed and adult) dry food, which they like and do well on. Also, how do you grind your meat, especially the bones and does anybody have a recommendation for a meat grinder.

[aimee]

Beth,

I just wanted to say I admire your strength and courage for being a responsible and loving owner to your dear dog. We as a society recognize that some people are too dangerous to live among us. There are dogs that simply are not safe to live with either. We want so desperately for these dogs to be normal which is why we grasp at any straw, like diet change, to fix them. But sadly it is not the case.

[Shawna]

I’m not understanding your post? They know lectins cause disease (including diabetes). What they don’t know is to what extent and why one has this issue and one has that. I have a friend whose dog is intolerant of green beans. I know others that have issues with strawberries and cucumbers. I am intolerant of dairy lectins and my husband reacts to pinto bean lectins.

The difference between us and our dogs —- we eat a varied diet while we (many of us) force our dogs to dine on the same cuisine day in and day out. Our dogs are more suseptible to the damages of lectins—if in the diet they are eating day after day..

I’m ALL FOR species appropriate diets by the way.. BEFORE illness sets in especially 🙂 Five of my dogs get raw including my dog born with kidney disease. The foster dogs (which will likely be with us for life) get 5 star kibbles with raw and high protein canned toppers.

[soho]

Hi Everyone,

I would like to discuss diet and diabetes. Diabetes is a huge subject to tackle whether it is in regard to people or to pets. I wanted to start the conversation with the question;

“What should I feed my Diabetic dog?”

Without going into the science of Diabetes which would be a very long and complex conversation let’s just discuss what you can do in regards to your dog’s diet to help them live a longer and healthier life.

I have been dealing with my own diabetes for 28 years now and I worked for a Doctor of Osteopathy as a diabetes educator in her Manhattan, NY office. For the last eight years I have counseled many dog guardians on the subject of canine diabetes. I have seen literally thousands of dogs with every kind of health issue through my work with the non profit FreePlay which educates the public on the benefits of off leash recreation areas and with The Pet Wash a local grooming and retail establishment.

The good news is you can really make a difference in your diabetic dog’s well being through their diet. The bad news is diabetes is an insidious disease that can rob your dog of their sight and their life if left unmanaged.

The Canine Ancestral diet which is approximately 55% protein 25 to 30% fat and 15% carbohydrate or on a calorie weighted basis 50% of calories are from protein, 44% from fat, and only 6% from carbohydrate is a good starting point to consider in trying to help the diabetic dog through diet.

The ancestral diet is so low in carbohydrates that it is tailor made for a diabetic dog. You can prepare this type of diet at home using human grade meats and vegetables which we will discuss in another post or you can try to feed your dog a similar diet using commercial foods. I would recommend starting with a balanced raw diet that does not contain bones and lightly cooking it. I would cook it lightly because a lot of diabetic dogs are not in the best health and their ability to deal with the bacteria and microbes that are in the raw food is probably compromised.

Second choice would be a dehydrated food such as The Honest Kitchen. THK is a quality food that uses only human grade ingredients in all of their formulas. The problem with THK is it is lower in protein that what I would suggest. This can be remedied by adding about 20% lightly cooked meat to each of the recipes. I would stick with similar proteins like fowl for the turkey or chicken formulas, fish for the fish formulas and red meat for the beef formulas.

Next would be a canned food that has no grains or other starches like potatoes. I would look for a canned food that was mostly meats with a little vegetables.

Lastly would be kibble. Kibbles require starch to bind the ingredients. They also are the most processed of all the commercial diets available for dogs. They also are dry and nutrient dense. I would suggest that a diabetic dog be fed a high moisture diet like a fresh food or a dehydrated after it is rehydrated or a canned food. Moisture helps ease the burden of the kidneys which are one of the organs that are affected by diabetes.

If you must feed a kibble for whatever reason then I would look to a kibble like EVO which is only 12 percent carbohydrates. The lowest carb highest protein kibble would be the only kibble I would consider feeding a dog with diabetes. Unfortunately once a dog has diabetes the controlling of this disease would be of paramount importance to me and I would no longer be as concerned with considering all of the qualities of an individual dog food and I would mostly focus on feeding a high protein, low carbohydrate and high moisture diet

Questions anyone?

• This topic was modified 11 years, 3 months ago by soho.

[Shawna]

Hi Lizemma ~~ I missed this post earlier.. My dog, Audrey, was born with kidney disease. She started showing symptoms of excess drinking and urinating at about 6 weeks of age. She came to me at 9 weeks of age. She was officially diagnosed at her one year check up.

Audrey was weaned onto a raw diet and has been eating raw her whole life. She is now 6 and 1/2 years old and still very healthy. She still has kidney disease but unless you look at her blood work or see her drink/urinate you wouldn’t know she was not completely healthy.

Raw isn’t for everyone but it is VERY VERY VERY important to feed dogs with kidney disease a high moisture diet. If raw isn’t an option consider home cooked or canned.

In the earlier stages of kidney disease (despite what your vet says) you do NOT need to lower protein. In fact, they now know that lowering protein too early in the disease actually does more harm than good. I don’t even feed Audrey a low phosphorus food but it is wise to begin to lower phosphorus. The amount to lower is completely based on the stage of the disease.

An EXCELLENT website for all things involving canine kidney disease is nutritionist Mary Straus’ website. She has accurate and current info with research articles linked to back up her comments. She also has a list of lower phosphorus kibble/canned/dehydrated etc foods. http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidney.html

If your vet hasn’t talked to you about “nitrogen trapping” I HIGHLY recommend researching it. Utilizing nitrogen trapping can help significantly (by up to 10 points) clean BUN out of the blood and routing it through the colon sparing the kidneys from having to filter it. Nitrogen trapping involves probiotics and a certain kind of fiber to feed those probiotics. I use acacia fiber — it’s called Sprinkle Fiber and the brand is Fiber 35. It’s made for human consumption but I had the most positive results using this brand with my Audrey.

Best wishes for many more healthy years with your pup!!!!!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Can’t say I agree that adding tapioca to raw would be a good idea. I wouldn’t reduce the protein content of my dogs’ food, up the carb content and glycemic load to add pre-biotics when there are much more species-appropriate pre-biotics that can be added without altering the protein and carbohydrate content and glycemic load. Chicory root, burdock root, dandelion root and garlic are all pre-biotics. Many can be purchased in concentrated tinctures specifically for pets that add appreciable amounts of pre-biotics to the diet. I’ve used Prebiotic Plus herbal tincture from Animals’ Apawthecary before and I also add minced raw garlic 2 or 3 times a week. With kibble a starch is obviously necessary, so it’s great to use a starch that has some sort of benefit (such as the pre-biotics in tapioca) because you have to have it, but a raw diet gives the opportunity to completely eliminate starches and that (in my opinion) is the beauty of a raw diet and why I think dogs thrive so much more on raw than on kibble.

[BrothersDogFood]

Toxed

Thanks for such a comprehensive look at Cassava root to help dismiss some of the negative hype that’s been circulating lately. So allow me to add my 2 cents to the discussion.

One of the things about Cassava that is often overlooked is that as much as 50% is in an insoluble form that feeds the good bacteria in the gut and doesn’t really contribute to the Glycemic index load in the blood stream. So it’s a carbohydrate that binds the meat and fat part of the formula while half of it is used to strengthen the immune system and feed the good bacteria in the gut to keep the system healthy. In effect one half the carbs in the cassava root are not really used by the regular system nor do they effect it directly.

They are basically “encapsulated” so the main system doesn’t have access to them and delivered to a sub-system in the body – which is the bacterial colony in the gut – and this bacterial colony (which has 10X the number of cells than the entire rest of the body combined) is essential in maintaining the immune system and the healthy functioning of the rest of the system. Actually, if you were to replace the Cassava with some more meat it wouldn’t be nearly as healthy for the system as a whole. THe work that the Cassava does in maintaining gut health is far more beneficial than some additional amino acid sequences in extra protein.

All carbohydrates are NOT created equal – some are actually very beneficial – even to a dog. Dogs may not have a “need” for carbohydrates but that doesn’t mean that certain carbs in proper quantities can’t be used judiciously to benefit the dog’s system. In fact even if I were to feed an all raw diet, knowing what I now know about Cassava root and gut biology, I would add it to the raw food. While many of us have a tendency to want to see life in black and white terms, me included, because it simplifies everything and reduces the complexity to manageable levels….it seems that life is actually mostly composed of shades of gray.

This years Nobel prize in Physics went to 2 men who found a way to design an experiment that proved that one aspect of the Quantum world, which is the basis of our physical reality, is so strange that Einstein died convinced that what they just proved was absolutely impossible. I won’t go into it but what they proved to be quite real is 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times stranger than the idea that a certain carb source, in proper proportion, might actually be more beneficial to a dog than if it weren’t in the dogs diet. Just a little food for the open mind.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Got this in my email today:

“Urgent: If you believe in Homeopathic Therapies for Pets, PLEASE READ THIS”

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/01/04/homeopathic-therapy.aspx?e_cid=20130104_PetsNL_art_1

[Toxed2loss]

I’m sorry James. Just a typo probably, and my auto correct substituted Jack. It was not intentional.

I didn’t do “a quick web search” on diabetes, as you assumed. I have a more holistic approach than you, not a limited one. I first started studying it 25 years ago. It is a very complex issue. I ran a quick search to see what some of the diabetic sites were currently saying about tapioca. My daughter has diabetes, and she eats carbs, including tapioca. So I checked, since I wouldn’t consider my daughter’s personal decisions an appropriate source on diabetes…

I chose to discuss meat based proteins being a superior canine diet and a natural segue of that is why I feed Brother’s, when I prefer balanced raw. You are the one focusing on the fact I talked about Brother’s, more than you are paying attention to everything else I said. Your comments seemed to imply that ANY tapioca was bad, and therefore any dog food with tapioca is bad. I’m explaining that its not. And since this is still a dog food forum discussing dog food ingredients, and no dog food is tapioca based, you’re obviously objecting to a proportionally very small amount of tapioca being used. That begs the question, why get all het up about that tiny bit of tapioca when grain based dog foods have a whole lot higher net GL…?

FYI I’m free to give my opinion of Brother’s Complete when ever I feel inclined.

[Toxed2loss]

Hi Jack,
Its a good thing tapioca is used minimally in high end kibbles then, – just as a binder. Not like the corn based kibbles, which are mostly high glycemic starches. Though it is interesting that there is research showing animal fat & protein mediates glucose spikes & that endocrine disrupting hormones have a greater impact than modest carbohydrate consumption.

I ran a quick search and diabetics are allowed to eat some tapioca… It just has to be balanced.
Here’s a quote from a diabetes support site. Granted its from a human type I site, but the research said that because there wasn’t much on dogs, it was acceptable to correlate human diabetes Type I information to dogs.

“- Vegetables that should be consumed in limited quantities by diabetics are: High sugar vegetables and root vegetables like carrot, potato, beetroot, colocasia, sweet potato, yam, tapioca and other vegetables like artichoke, green plantain, tender jackfruit, broad beans, double beans, cluster beans.”

So limited quantities, not none. I certainly wouldn’t feed any of my dogs any predominantly starch based diet, tapioca or not. They weren’t designed to eat starch, as a staple. I prefer to feed a balanced raw, according to Steve Brown’s book, and Dr. Becker & Beth Taylor’s book. I feed raw & kibble because I can’t count on my health being stable. Like today, I started out great, but had a bad crash at 2:00, recovered and had a major crash at 6:00. Luckily I got on top of that one and am recovering fairly well at the moment. So I picked the absolute best kibble I could, for my girls, because I know my husband. He’s not going to feed raw if I croak over. I want them to all go on with as minimum disruption as possible. I feel the percentages of carbs, including the tapioca, and their combined glycemic indexes as compared to the meat, fat, bone, ratios & the ratios of other ingredients of Brother’s Complete Fish formula is the best. I also like how it doesn’t have the toxins that I see in a number of other “high end” kibbles. And according to some research papers, those dietary toxins are being recognized as having a much greater influence on promoting diabetes Type I (the kind that dogs typically get), than previously thought. My2¢

[Shawna]

Hi Bill 🙂

1. The reason plant based proteins are combined, as you know, is that some are deficient in one essential amino acid or another. By combining you can get representation of all essentials. My problem with this is that if not done well it can still cause an excess of others making the entire protein content less bioavailable. Bioavailability is the ability of the body to use the amino acids from the proteins we eat. Egg has 100% bioavailability — ALL the amino acids in an egg are used leaving none to become blood urea nitrogen for the kidneys to have to filter. When we combine foods we’re bound to have an excess of some and a proper representation of others. The body is then going to have an excess of some that it can’t use and these become blood urea nitrogen. This isn’t a bad thing unless the eater has kidney disease.

All animal based proteins already have all essential amino acids so combining is not really as necessary. However some have more of one and less of another — turkey, as an example, is a good source of tryptophan. Adding animal based protein to any kibble is a good idea and mixing up the proteins makes sense (different amino acids, different fat representations etc). You can not over feed protein to a healthy dog. What they can not use they will safely eliminate causing no harm.

It’s best to feed eggs raw as cooking them can denature the protein in the whites and destroy the omega 3 in the yolk. If feeding whites only you must cook them as the avidin in the white binds to the B vitamin biotin and can cause a deficiency. The yolk is high in biotin so when feeding together avidin is now believed to not be an issue.

2. I don’t think that carbs reduce the benefit of protein (with an exception) but rather they take the place of the much more needed protein. It is well known, and mentioned in the teaching books like Waltham, that dogs have NO nutritional need for carbs. Adding carbs displaces the macronutrients they do need — fat and protein. Dogs can derive glucose from protein and fat. Carbs (starch) is added to kibble more because kibble can not be made without starch than a dietary need. I do think that in our modern world the antioxidants, vitamins etc in high quality carbs (veggies and fruit) can be of great benefit when used in small amounts though.

The exception I mentioned above — there is a theory that carbs and proteins digest at different rates, and more importantly, at different acid/base levels. Lou and Marilyn Diamond had a very interesting book out in the 80’s called “Fit for Life”. From memory, the theory is that carbs (starch) digest in an alkaline environment and protein in acid. This is true but I don’t know if one impedes the other. Example — if a high starch diet prevents the stomach from producing enough HCL to activate the pepsin protein in the stomach that digests the protein.. If this is true than excess, or any, starch can make protein digestion more difficult. Carbs could be eaten but not at the same meal as protein and visa versa. Fruit had to be eaten alone and non-starchy carbs (aka certain veggies) could be eaten with protein or starchy meals. I tried this and I do think it improved digestion considerably but it was difficult to maintain and after about 8 months I gave it up never to retry.

3. I’m sure there’s a way to easily figure out the percent but math is not my strong suit so I’ll leave that to someone with stronger math skills :). I will say however that I don’t think you need to worry about it. Those of us that feed raw, myself and Toxed included, feed protein amounts in excess of 50%. What you do want to be congniscent of is not to add more than 20% of ANY food that is not balanced to an already balanced diet. Doing so can throw off the calcium to phosphorus ratio and that could be bad..

I am HORRIBLY sorry if this post makes little to no sense…?? I’m watching my 1 and 2 year old grand kids and they make concentration and focus near impossible.

Thank you Toxed for your vote of confidence!!!!! 🙂 Love you girl!!

[Toxed2loss]

Tapioca is one of the alternative starches being used in higher end kibbles. Its gluten free, non-GMO, and when properly processed, non-toxic. In order to make, and bind kibble you must use a certain amount of starch. Tapioca is a good choice in that it is nontoxic, gluten & lectin free.

There is a lot of misinformation being disseminated about tapioca, so lets review the facts and set the record straight. There are no poisonings from properly processed tapioca flour. In fact, most poisonings occur in famine stricken areas where the starving individuals try to take short cuts in processing the raw cassava or manioc root. This is well documented. Tapioca has been safely consumed for thousands of years and is the main staple starch in African, Indonesian and South American diets. “500 million people rely on cassava as their main source of calories, among them subsistence farmers in Sub-Saharan Africa…”Richard Sayre, a professor of plant biology at Ohio State University
—-

“The Culprit in Cassava Toxicity: Cyanogens or Low Protein?
by G. Padmaja

The starchy roots of cassava (Manihot esculenta Crantz) are already a staple for about 500 million people of tropical Africa, Asia, and Latin America, but countless others might also benefit from this food if it were not for the sensationalism that sometimes surrounds the crop’s potential toxicity.
The cassava plant carries two cyanogenic glucosides, linamarin and lotaustralin, in its edible roots and leaves. The amounts of these potentially toxic compounds vary considerably, according to cultivar and growing conditions. “Sweet” varieties usually have such small amounts as to be innocuous, whereas “bitter” varieties have sufficiently high levels to require domestic processing to remove most of the toxins.

In situations where famine or extreme poverty may force a population to eat poorly processed cassava in a diet that is also deficient in nutrients such as protein, the plant’s cyanogenic glucosides can lead to poisoning. A classic case was the infantile kwashiorkor epidemic in famine-stricken Biafra in 1968, but there have also been recent examples of spastic paraparesis, or konzo, in drought-stricken regions of Mozambique and Tanzania.

Detoxifying cassava

Farming populations who cultivate cassava have developed many methods of detoxifying cassava. Boiling and drying are sufficient to make low-cyanogen cultivars safe for consumption, but more rigorous procedures such as grating, fermenting, and sun-drying, are necessary to effectively remove cyanogens from cultivars of higher toxicity.

The protein link

Whenever a chronic disease has been linked to cassava consumption, the victims have also been found to suffer from protein deficiency, suggesting a relationship between the two.

Protein is essential for all the body’s vital functions, and for eliminating certain dietary toxins. With the help of the enzyme rhodanese, the human body detoxifies cyanide by forming thiocyanate. When the body is regularly exposed to cassava cyanogens, the increased synthesis of rhodanese makes extra demands on the body’s reserves of amino acids, the building blocks of proteins. To detoxify 1.0 mg hydrocyanic acid (HCN), the body also needs a daily supply of about 1.2 mg of dietary sulfur (S) from S- containing amino acids (SAA). If the demand for rhodanese and SAA is prolonged, as in the regular consumption of cassava, and the diet is inadequate, the synthesis of many proteins vital for bodily functions may be impaired, leading to the development of protein deficiency diseases.

Cassava – low protein source

Cyanogens alone cannot be blamed for toxicity because other cyanogenic crops, such as sorghum and Lathyrus bean, which are widely used as food, cause few toxicity problems. But the protein contents of these two crops (11.0% and 18.7%, respectively) are higher.

Many cassava products contain very low amounts of cyanogens, which can be efficiently eliminated by the body, if the protein intake is adequate. Cassava roots, being bulky and rich in carbohydrates, free dietary proteins from having to meet the body’s energy needs, thus allowing them to be used more efficiently. However, the level of protein in cassava lags far behind the levels found in rice, wheat, and tuber crops (Figure 1). An adult consuming 1 kg of cassava has to ingest 52 g of protein from other sources to obtain the U.S. recommended daily allowance (RDA) of 65 g protein per adult. In contrast, 1 kg of wheat supplies 121 g of protein and rice, 61 to 64 g of protein.

If protein intake is more than adequate for both general metabolic requirements and cyanide elimination, toxic effects are lessened or even eliminated, even if cassava is improperly processed. (Fatal poisoning can result from ingestion of large amounts of unprocessed or poorly processed high-cyanogen cassava.) Hence, the lack of protein in cassava roots is probably responsible for most non-fatal cases of cyanide poisoning associated with cassava.”
http://www.worldbank.org/html/cgiar/newsletter/Oct96/6cassava.html
——-
Notice it was cassava and not tapioca, that caused the poisonings. Notice also that they weren’t in the US, but in impoverished areas, in developing nations, and there was a lack of sufficient dietary protein.
——-

Nutritional profile of cassava
Cassava root is essentially a carbohydrate source.[27] Its composition shows 60–65 percent moisture, 20–31 percent carbohydrate, 1–2 percent crude protein and a comparatively low content of vitamins and minerals. However, the roots are rich in calcium and vitamin C and contain a nutritionally significant quantity of thiamine, riboflavin and nicotinic acid. Cassava starch contains 70 percent amylopectin and 20 percent amylose. Cooked cassava starch has a digestibility of over 75 percent.
Cassava root is a poor source of protein. Despite the very low quantity, the quality of cassava root protein is fairly good in terms of essential amino acids. Methionine, cysteine and cystine are, however, limiting amino acids in cassava root.
http://www.ask.com/wiki/Cassava
——

THE HEALTH BENEFITS OF TAPIOCA
Aug 5, 2011 | By Kristi Wray

Conventionally, tapioca, derived from the cassava plant, is best known as a creamy pudding dessert with little sustenance. However, in some in areas like Africa, Asia and South America, tapioca is known better for its nutritional benefits than as a sweet treat. When eaten raw or incorrectly prepared, the plant releases poisonous properties. Thus, tapioca must be prepared correctly to prevent harm and ensure safe eating.

STARCH EQUALS ENERGY
The cassava plant is a root vegetable and a healthy source of carbohydrates. In many countries, it serves as a main dish because of its high starch content. Even better, it is considered a healthy starch because it is low in cholesterol and unhealthy fats. Tapioca can be included in dietary plans to promote healthy weight gain.

GLUTEN-FREE
People suffering with Celiac disease or other conditions that restrict the use of gluten-based foods can use tapioca as an alternative to recipes that use wheat flour. Tapioca flour, which does not contain any gluten, is a healthier alternative to wheat flour. Both tapioca flour and tapioca starch can be used as a thickening agent in cream-based sauces and gravies.

MINERALS
Calcium, phosphorous, potassium and magnesium can be found in tapioca in varying amounts. If you are preparing a more processed form of the root, like a pudding mix, you will receive a smaller amount of these minerals than if you were to consume tapioca starch or flour. Tapioca is also a good source of iron, and, in particular, dry tapioca pearls contain up to 13 percent of your daily value of iron. B-vitamins, including folic acid, which is extremely vital for pregnant women, are also found in tapioca.

DIETARY FIBER
Over the years, the U.S. Department of Agriculture has placed extreme importance on the consumption of dietary fiber on a daily basis for a healthier lifestyle. The cassava root has a significant amount of dietary fiber in its natural form. According to the USDA, foods high in dietary fiber can help lower cholesterol, decrease the rate of colon cancer, and lower the risk of diabetes and heart disease.” http://www.livestrong.com/article/509033-the-health-benefits-of-tapioca/
—–

So there you have it. A factual picture of tapioca starch, without the scare tactics.

[husky3]

Thank you for your response, Pugsmom & Patty!

I just looked into the body condition score, and I think she would fall somewhere between a 6 & 7 on the scale of 1-9, or a 4/5 on the other scale. She does have a little bit of a waistline when standing above her looking down, & an abdominal cut when looking from the side. Her ribs are “palpable with difficulty” closer to the spine, but can be slightly felt on her belly. I can not quite feel her hip bones, and the fatty deposit between the hip bones is a bit thick for my liking. It’s difficult to tell through all her fur, maybe I should giver her a bath to get a better idea! 🙂

We’ll work on getting the ideal Body Condition score rather than looking at the scale, as I just kept getting disappointed and frustrated with the increased effort & lack of results.

I’m still going to look into a possible allergy/toxin, but continue our regimen of increased exercise and decreased calories. She just may be a real “husky” Husky after all! Oh, and we’re doing more research in hopes of starting them on the raw prey model diet.

If there is a way to post pictures, let me know and I’ll post one for comparison.

Thanks again!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi crazy4cats –

Long term supplementation with probiotics and enzymes is very safe and healthy, in fact many posters here supplement their healthy dogs’ diet with probiotics and enzymes. My dogs get 1/2 c. kefir every other day and green tripe almost daily (loaded with naturally occurring probiotics and enzymes). The Vetri Probiotic BD looks okay but it only has 3 strains of probiotics – I’d personally look for something with more strains. NWC Natural’s makes a digestive supplement for dogs called Total Biotics with 14 strains of probiotics, prebiotics and enzymes. Mercola also sells a good probiotic supplement with 14 strains and Garden of Life Primal Defense has 12 strains. A dog’s natural diet (raw prey) would naturally contain probiotics and enzymes so when feeding a processed kibble diet it’s good to add supplemental enzymes and probiotics. DGL is deglycyrrhizinated licorice and is often used by holistic vets to help heal the lining of the digestive tract. I’d assume this would only be need while your dog is healing and wouldn’t be supplemented long term, but you can talk to your vet about it.

[crazy4cats]

Hi All-
My dogs (lab/retriever mix) have been off and on antibiotics for the last year due to arriving with giardia. I had never even heard of it before. My first vet explained they would be carriers and never totally get rid of it after 3 treatments. After their next episode of green diarrhea, I went to new vet and he said that wasn’t true and we tried a stronger treatment of metronidazole and dewormer. He also suggested pre/probiotics, digestive enzymes and DGL. I was happy that he was trying something new. We have had 2 negative fecal tests so far. What a relief! He also recommended food change. I was using Kirkland. He liked raw best and suggested blue or nature’s variety. Wow! A vet that didn’t recommend science diet. So, anyway doing all of the above now. We have had a huge improvement in stools. Not perfect yet, but much better. I’m guessing after reading this website, it could take 6 months to totally recover from all the antibiotics they have taken and having parasites in their guts. My question is; is it safe to use these supplements long term? Will they become dependent on them? Also, wondering if anyone has heard of using DGL for dogs? Im using Vetri-probiotic BD right now. It has pre/pro and enzymes in it. I’m not sure about long term use.

[pugmomsandy]

Husky3,

Have you taken into account her body condition score? In your first post, you only mentioned she was overweight but not how she looked. So I just wanted to throw that out there. As my small dogs are on a low carb diet, they remain “overweight” but with good body condition scores. I’m going to say they are muscular versus fat. My two small ones are 24 lbs but look like ones that weigh less than 20. My gravatar is one of my small ones. For a pug he is considered overweight! He still has the same harness set at the same size for the past 3 years although he is heavier than 3 years ago. I’ve been feeding them at first low carb kibble and now kibble and raw foods and they just are heavy pugs but not fat. I haven’t figured out how to post pictures yet in this forum. If anyone knows how (using shutterfly) let me know!! For my group, if they were to lose weight to be more inline with the breed standard, they would have to be emaciated! Or lose all their muscles and become weaklings.

[husky3]

Wow, thank you for your response!! I have been searching for an answer for a very long time…

I was not aware of Potatoes having toxins… It’s interesting that you bring up allergies, I was just thinking the other day that she might be allergic to something. I noticed her lips/muzzle seemed a little more “plump” than normal… But I chalked that up to her being overweight, since she is not itchy, has a beautiful thick coat, and no skin problems.

She is up to date on all her vaccinations, and since seeing our new vet (who is wonderful, might I add), we’ve recently decided that we will only go with the mandatory Rabies vaccination which is due next month. They run a titer blood test to confirm they don’t need additional vaccines. She has never had any GI problems, and she gets Trifexis once a month for any possible worms/fleas. I’m not sure what other environmental things could be bothering her, what other environmental things were you referring to?

I have notice a slight change in her physique since we upped the exercise, but still no actual weight loss after 8 months of decreased calories and increased exercise. I will look into the Brothers Complete, and, quite frankly, I’m afraid to try the RAW diet, I’ve heard it’s difficult to make sure they are getting all the nutrition they need, in addition to the protein. I may have to suck it up and try it though, or at least incorporate it into their diet a couple times a week. 🙂

I am very excited to research all the great information you provided, and I think I will have an allergy test ran to see what foods she might be sensitive to. Hopefully we will finally find our answer!

Thank you again for your response, I really appreciate your input. 🙂
Hope you have a Happy New Year!

[Toxed2loss]

Hi Tay,
Looks like you’ve been working hard to get to the bottom of this. 🙂 Let me toss a few things out. Have you tried a potato & grain free, high protein food? I noticed Orijen had both potato & sweet potato. That’s a lot of starch. Starch is converted to glucose, which triggers insulin, which opens the ‘gate’ that says “make fat.” Were you aware that potatoes have toxins? They’re from the deadly nightshade family. If your pup is having immune system problems (too many toxins – dietary & environmental) she may be putting on fat, as a secondary defense mechanism. I’m toxically injured. When my primary detox metabolism failed, my body started creating fat out of my own body tissue, encasing the toxins and storing them in adipose tissue… So even when I was barely eating, I was putting on weight. Its very common with the Toxically Injured (TI), and pets have the same response. So, we can take a look at what your environment looks like, what you’re pup’s vaccine and worming schedule is and boost her immune system.

Personally, I like Brother’s Complete, as the best kibble. It has a unique encapsulated probiotic, that feeds the entire digestive system. The gut is the foundation of the immune system. It also doesn’t have the toxins that I see in a lot of other foods, even some of the “high end” ones. I also feed raw. You might want to look at that, to reduce the carbs. Dogs don’t have a dietary need for carbs. So reducing them won’t do him any harm. Steve Brown recommends 5-6% carbs, but more in the line of dark green leafies, or high antioxidants. I also like to give astaxanthin from Mercola(dot)com.

Any way, its a waste of money & your dog’s health to not clean up her environment, in addition to her diet, so read the “detoxing” and “vaccinating” threads, under “diet & health,” and then let me know if you need any more help. 🙂

[Hound Dog Mom]

I don’t think it matters which protein you choose, just go with one he’s never eaten before. You can give treats, but it should be simple single ingredient with just the protein you’re feeding him. So say you go with goat, any treat you feed should be just goat nothing else. Just during the period of time that you’re trying to figure out what his food-triggers are (if there are any). If you’re feeding, say, a raw diet with goat and starting giving a biscuit that has chicken and carrot and sweet potato and peas then he has a reaction, you would have no way of knowing if the reaction was caused by the goat, the chicken, the carrots, the sweet potato or the peas – you know what I mean? So during the ingredient trial period simple is best. Once you get past the 2-3 month period and start re-introducing other foods and figure out which (if any) ingredients are triggering his actions you can buy treats with safe ingredients – but before you can do that you need to figure out which ingredients are safe. And as, as I said in my previous comments, I would strongly encourage a high quality pro-biotic supplement (Mercola’s and Garden of Life’s Primal Defense are two of the best) because, like Toxed just pointed out, a healthy gut is the foundation of immune health.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi oceandog –

That’s great that you still feed your dog a meat based diet and are willing to feed raw even though you’re vegan, it must be tough to do! 🙂 While I completely respect vegetarians and vegans, I see too many that try to force their lifestyle on their dogs and cats and I personally don’t think it’s fair…

Hare-Today.com and Mypetcarnivore.com sell pre-ground mixes with muscle meat, bone and organs in the correct proportions – so you wouldn’t need to chop up any meat or anything, it comes looking just like a pre-made raw (it just doesn’t have the supplements or veggies). They have several novel protein sources. Hare Today sells goat, goose, llama, pheasant and quail and My Pet Carnivore sells alpaca, goat, muskrat and rabbit. I’d just recommend adding the supplements I listed in my previous post – vitamin e (a capsule for humans a couple times a week), fish oil (for omega 3’s), kelp & alfalfa (trace nutrients) and probiotics (to help strengthen his gut). I’d leave out any other ingredients and just keep it basic during the elimination trial so when you start re-introducing ingredients you can know what the issue is. Only feed one protein source and don’t give any treats.

[Toxed2loss]

Hi Oceandog,

Sounds like you’re on the right track diet wise. However, diet & environment go hand in hand. Both need to be addressed in order to eliminate your dogs issues. If you click “forums” again, then choose “Diet and Health Issues” you will see a number of threads. I’d encourage you to read the “Detoxing” thread on page 2, for a good understanding of how the immune system works, and the “Vaccinating” thread on page one. The symptoms you’ve listed for your pup are symptoms of vaccinosis.

Here’s the bottom line, when you remove all dietary & environmental toxins, and detox the body, the “allergies” go away.

I feed Brother’s Complete Fish formula, for the kibble portion of my girls diet (& raw). Brother’s has encapsulated probiotics. Gut health is the foundation of the immune system. I also use Mercola’s astaxanthin, a powerful antioxidant to help their detox.

[oceandog]

I have had him on raw until the vet prescribed a specialty anallergen kibble (not good stuff in my opinion). I have a kibble now because the raw I have been using does not have novel protein sources. They have turkey, chicken, duck and beef. I am going to be honest and since I don’t know anyone here yet I hope that readers will be kind. 🙂

I am a 22+ year vegetarian/vegan and while I cannot eat meat myself, I don’t believe that I should force that on my dogs as I believe they are carnivores. The reason I say this is I don’t believe I could make my own raw. Unless you eat the way I do you cannot imagine how truly difficult it is for me to deal with the raw on a daily basis. I have to slightly warm it or he won’t touch it, the smell is my undoing. Not to mention the mess. So, having said all of that? I don’t think I am up to making my own. If I read your post correctly, those two links above have novel protein in a raw form? If so, do I have to do anything to it or can I just feed it as it comes? I will look for this information on the sites, and I so appreciate your feedback. This has been quite difficult. I thought we had it figured out a couple of times but I think my error was not keeping him on a restricted diet long enough.

It is of course possible it is a habit or environmental. Yesterday though he was chasing his leg in circles to chew on it. So I just don’t know. I have the kangaroo kibble that I will continue on until I can review and possible order from the suggested sites. I have kept kibble on hand for training purposes. Do it seem reasonable to keep the kibble for this purpose if I can find an appropriate raw?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi oceandog –

When you fed raw did you use a novel protein source? Honestly, if he was experiencing these issues on a grain-free raw diet with a novel protein source, I would be inclined to think it’s more likely to be a compulsive behavior or something in the environment. Since raw is not an issue for you, rather than messing around with kibble I’d put him right on a raw diet. I’d personally go with a grind from hare-today.com or mypetcarnivore.com (the grinds contain muscle meat, organ meat, bone and nothing else) – pick one with a protein he’s never eaten before (they’ve got some pretty novel proteins like goat, duck, quail, rabbit, etc.). I’d feed him the grind with a vitamin e supplement, fish oil, kelp/alfalfa blend and a high quality multi-strain probiotic with nothing else for 2-3 months (no treats either!). After 2-3 months, assuming the issues have cleared, gradually start introducing new protein sources and other food items such as vegetables, fruits and eggs. Introduce each item one at a time and closely monitor his reaction. Keep a journal or something noting which foods cause reactions and which don’t. After you figure out which foods trigger his reaction you can start looking into pre-made raw foods (if you wish or you can keep making your own) that don’t contain any of his allergy triggers. If something like this doesn’t work, then I highly doubt his issues are food related.

[oceandog]

I actually do prefer a raw diet, and when I got him as a puppy, I started him on one. I still am having great difficulty finding one to suit. My favorite raw is Darwins, they are just amazing, but so far I haven’t been able to find a formula that works for him, which makes me wonder if it is not food but as you said an environmental one. I have tried an alternate diet, but I was unaware of the 3 month time line, perhaps that is where I have gone wrong? I have not given enough time between foods so I don’t have a realistic idea if it is food or not. I found a kibble (blech) that is kangaroo and red lentil, he seems to like it, it is me that doesn’t like to feed kibble. Perhaps I should keep him on that until say the end of March and then start reintroducing Darwins raw? Does that sound reasonable? And for what it is worth, thank you so much for your reply, it is difficult to feel so confused about the right thing to do. He isn’t a pet, he is family! 😉 I will look at the website you suggested in the morning. Thanks again!

[Hound Dog Mom]

If you truly believe his issues are food-related (keep in mind that while it’s definitely possible his issues are food related, it could also be something environmental or behavioral), I’d recommend doing a food allergy elimination trial. Identify the primary protein and carbohydrate source in the foods that have caused the issues and pick a new food that doesn’t contain these protein sources or carbohydrate sources. I’d also go with a high protein/low carbohydrate food and supplement with probiotics and enzymes as this will strengthen the dog’s gut, help to begin the detoxification process and allow for less opportunity for inflammation. I know Dr. Karen Becker recommends her patients keep their dogs that are experiencing food allergies on a hypoallergenic diet like this for three months. After the three month period, reintroduce other protein sources and carbohydrate sources slowly and monitor your dog’s reaction to find out which items cause issues and which don’t. Try to find at least two or three other foods with different protein/carbohydrate sources that you can rotate your dog to every few months to help prevent the development of other allergies later down the road. If it’s something your open to, a lot of dogs with severe food allergies thrive on raw diets. The food is less processed and easier on the digestion system and it’s much easier to tailor a homemade diet to your dog’s needs. Check out healthypets.mercola.com – this is Dr. Karen Becker’s website, she’s a holistic vet and has a lot of good articles. I’m sure others will chime in with more advice. Good luck!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi weimlove –

If you check out my menus for my dogs on the “Suggested Raw Dog Food Menus” you’ll see how I utilize a pre-mix for breakfast three mornings per week. Just follow the directions the pre-mix package and use boneless meat. You could omit veggies and all supplements, but I would still add fish oil as most pre-mixes don’t have adequate omega 3’s in the mix. In the evening I just feed some RMB’s and a little muscle meat (like hearts or gizzards) and occasionally some livers.Remember the 80-10-10 ratio doesn’t have to be exact at every meal, just over the course of a week or so you want the dog’s overall diet to roughly equal 80-10-10. It’s called balance over time.

[Melissaandcrew]

Hi billdoe-

I have 15 dogs that eat a kibble based diet of approx 33% protein. By the time we add canned, raw, dehydrated, home cooked etc, its higher than that. I have no brown spots on my lawn caused by urine-drought yes, urine no, lol. One thing I DO notice -Their urine used to have a stronger smell and we would periodically lime the yard to prevent odor, as well as assist with any browning that we thought might occur. I just realized that this year, we had no odor even on the hottest/most humid of days, and never limed once this year. For us, the increased protein has had a positive effect on the ‘output”

I am just as uncomfortable feeding a protein level higher than the 33%(for dry) as I would be feeding a protein level under 26% or so.

[Shawna]

In my opinion it is not the total amount of protein in a food but rather the quality of the protein (the bioavailibility — how much is used by the body and how much becomes waste (aka blood urea nitrogen)). Speaking as the owner of a dog born with kidney disease I know that high quality protein creates less nitrogen for her kidneys to have to filter (and thus less in the urine). And my dog with kidney disease actually eats a HIGH protein raw diet — ranging from 45 to 54% protein. In fact, I have 8 dogs all eating high quality kibble with raw and high protein canned toppers or exclusively high protein raw. I don’t have brown spots on my lawn — 8 dogs-high protein-no brown spots.

Additionally, they know that senior dogs actually need as much as 50% more protein than adult dogs as they are not as efficient at digesting their food.

I know you don’t want supplements but a trick used by those with dogs with kidney disease (and confirmed by science to work) is feeding probiotics and foods for those probiotics called prebiotics. This causes a “nitrogen trap” and routes some of the nitrogen in the blood through the colon instead of the kidneys. Gets pooped out instead of peed out.

[weimlove]

Hi folks,
I currently have my two year old weimaraner on Trifexis for fleas, heartworm, and other parasites. After doing some research, I am realizing that this medicine could be doing more harm that good. I am also about to switch to a raw diet. I have heard that many people who feed raw dont use any preventatives. Since I live in FL, there are always mosquitos so I plan on atleast using heart guard. Do any of you have an opinion on flea treatment? Do you think I need to continue treating for fleas? If so, do you know of any natural alternatives? Thanks!

[Shawna]

Anna,

LOL!! From what I’ve been told by vets as well as my own doctor is that the allergy testing is hit and miss. So your observational skills are probably a better bet than you might think :)…. I can always tell when my grandkids gave my Audrey something she reacts too as well.. Her immune system has calmed down enough that she doesn’t itch but her skin will get a little hot across her back and lower tummy. She can also get a little clingy.

If you end up going with raw you can do a real elimination diet and get to the bottom of anything that might be problematic.. With Audrey it ended up being 4 different foods.

Let us know if there is anything we can help with if or when you need it!!!

PS — vets are told that food allergies are rare (which is actually true). What some have not yet discovered is that food intolerances are quite common and can manifest in the same symptoms.

[annabeth]

Hound Dog Mom and Shawna and Pugdogmomsandy,

Just joined and wanted to thank you for all your very useful information!!!! I am in the research stage of trying to move my fuzzy babies over to a more healthy diet and ya’ll have been just priceless with the time and research ya’ll have been willing to share. I have a 7 month old great dane, and 2 shelter pups. I think the chihuahua mix is 7ish and my big girl (? part mastiff) is 5ish. They weren’t sure how old either wwas when I got them or and real guess on breed at the shelter.
Started checking out the different kibbles when Hercules (baby dane) was scratching himself raw and starting to look like a hairless Great Dane. Took him to the vet and had him checked for mange etc, though my other pups seemed fine. Thought mange was contagoius so didn’t know how only he could have it. After his tests she told me she didn’t know what was wrong with him and I figured he must be allergic to something so started switching out kibbles to see….this site has been a sanity saver with all the info on the kibble and …… and the info ya’ll have shared about feeding raw has been a god send.
Sorry about rambling and as I keep figuring it out I am sure I will drive ya’ll crazy with questions
Thank you
Ann

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi weimlove –

I completely agree with everything Shawna said. Basically those that feed prey model raw with the 80/10/10 ratio are feeding an approximation of a prey animal – rarely does the dog’s entire diet consist of actual whole prey animals. You need to consider everything your dog isn’t getting from a homemade diet. A dog in the wild would eat everything – fur, skin, sinew, glands, organs, marrow, bone, flesh, some of the stomach contents, fat, etc. etc. – there is so much of this that’s just not available (or not always available) for us to feed to our animals. You can feed, say, 1 lb. turkey Necks, 12 oz. ground beef and 1.5 oz. Liver and 1.5 oz. kidney and that would be “balanced” in terms of having an appropriate calcium to phosphorus ratio and adequate amounts of organ meat – but a whole prey animal doesn’t consist of only turkey neck, lean ground beef, liver and kidney – there’s a lot of other stuff in there that your dog is missing out on. The other thing to consider is that commercially raised meats generally have lower concentrations of nutrients than wild game and contain much higher levels of omega 6 fatty acids and much lower levels of omega 3 fatty acids. Adding veggies and supplements can help fill in these nutritional gaps in our modern interpretation of the dog’s “ancestral diet.”

[Shawna]

Hi skippy5761 ~~ just read your post to HDM so sorry for the delayed response. They now know that quality protein does not cause kidney disease. The original studies that set this myth in motion were actually done on rats. Rats DO get kd from high protein diets – dogs and cats do not.

High protein diets (quality high protein) actually have been shown to help the kidneys not hinder them. For this reason, I’ve been feeding my Audrey (pup in my avatar pic) a high quality raw diet since she was weaned. Audrey has had kidney disease from birth. She had symptoms of excessive drinking and urinating even before weaning. She was officially diagnosed when she had her 1 year blood work done. We modified her diet and rechecked blood work every 3 months for a year and when it was all said and done I had her back on her normal diet with added probiotics and prebiotics (which help trap nitrogen sparing the kidneys from having to filter it (referred to as the “nitrogen trap”). I used to home prepare the foods my dogs ate but I have less time right now so I use commercial raw. I use a combination of Darwin’s, Bravo and premixes with meats I supply right now. Audrey is now 6 and 1/2 years old and in VERY GOOD health.. She is not on any prescription medications (I give her nutraceuticals though). She never has to go to the vet for anything and has never once required sub-q fluids etc.

In my opinion, feeding kibble (any kind at any protein level) is far more damaging to the kidneys than a high quality, balanced raw diet. Audrey is living proof. She’ll turn 7 the end of June 2013.

[Shawna]

PS — HDM’s diet is one of the best I’ve seen aside from those that have been run through calculators to ensure completeness (like the recipes in Dr. Becker’s Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats). When I was home preparing I fed very similar to HDM’s diet.. I think she is a great asset to the home prepared raw feeding community as well as dog food community in general..

[Shawna]

Weimlove,

HDM mentions her thoughts about veggies in an earlier post on this thread. Here’s the first couple sentences but there’s more “Concerning vegetables, many don’t feel that they’re necessary. Vegetables aren’t part of a dog’s natural diet and I do agree that as long as everything else I described above is provided that they probably aren’t necessary, but I do strongly feel that when they’re provided in small quantities they can be a beneficial addition to the dog’s diet.”

I agree COMPLETELY with her. Our dogs are subjected to SO MANY MORE toxins than their ancestors and certainly more than wolves. Examples — formaldehyde is off gased from particle board furniture for the life of the piece, gas fumes from gas water heaters and vehicles, the chemical PFOA in tephlon pans and wrappers like those on microwave popcorn bags can actually kill a bird at the right concentration, fluoride in drinking water, vaccinations/heartworm/flea tick etc…

Not to mention, many don’t bother feeding organic. Bones from CAFO cattle can be high in contaminants like fluoride. The meat is higher in saturated fat than grass finished beef. The meat can be tainted due to the GMO corn and soy etc etc etc. Additionally, “prey” is going to include fiber from the small amounts of ingested fur, sodium from the blood of the animal, ALL the organs — brains are a source of omega 3 DHA, heart has taurine, pancreas has enzymes, tripe has more fiber (in the bits of ingested plant material that comes with) and probiotics and enzymes and on and on.. Many “prey model” enthusiasts don’t account for all these missing nutrients.

The extra vitamins, minerals and antioxidants in fruits and veggies just seem like a really good idea when we are subjecting our pets to so many toxins that would not be found in their natural environment (or their ancestor’s that is).

Veggies should be cooked or run through the blender or food processor. Running them thorugh the blender breaks down the cellulose layer without needing heat which can damage the natural enzymes within the food. If you would eat the veggie/fruit raw than you can give it to your dog raw too — cucumbers, peppers, berries, celery, zucchini (sp?), carrots, tomatoes etc. The finer they are blended they more nutrients are released. If you would cook it for yourself, cook it for pup — acorn squash, sweet potato etc. Best way to cook them is to steam them in a steamer (can be purchased for $40.00 or less). Add the water from the steamers drip tray back into the food as some minerals are leached during cooking and you can add them back by adding the water back.

Hope that helps :).

[weimlove]

HDM-
Thankyou so much for making that for me, it helps so much!I went to the local butcher yesterday and found some great prices. He has boneless beef chicken and turkey for .50 cents a pound. He also has chicken necks and backs for .60 cents a pound. He also carries whole chickens, chicken leg quarters, and a variety of organs. He does carry venison, but it’s 6 dollars a pound so thats a bit too much to spend on a regular basis. I think I will be able to get all the meat on the menu from him, but I plan on trying to find other sources of meat as well. I also looked on hare today, and they had alot of great meat too for ok prices. There is also a supplement store in town that I can get the vitamin E and alfalfa kelp mix. I already add salmon oil to his food now, so I can just put that on his raw food as well. Yesterday I was reading about the prey model raw diet, and they kept emphasizing that dogs dont need supplements and veggies if they are being fed the 80:10:10. What are your thoughts on that?

[lizemma]

I’m looking for suggestions on a dog food that is low in phosphorus and works for a dog with allergies to chicken, turkey, lamb and pork. Before switching to a renal LP dog food, she was on a salmon and potato dry dog food. My Vet has said that there are no LP dog foods that are not chicken based. Is this correct? I am willing to make her dog food, but want to make sure I don’t miss any essential nutrition. Also, my Vet, who I have high respect for, is against a raw food diet.

[Hound Dog Mom]

weimlove –

It’s great that Shadow loved the raw fish – but be careful about which types of fish you feed raw. Salmon, trout and steelhead that are caught in the Pacific can carry “salmon poisoning.” If you want to feed any of these types of fish from this region they should be frozen for a least 2 weeks to kill the parasite.

I make my own wholefood multivitamin/mineral. I order my ingredients from starwest-botanicals.com. I mix equal parts: kelp, alfalfa, spirulina, chlorella, bee pollen, turmeric and garlic powder. You can do this if you want or if you want to make it simpler you can just mix equal parts kelp and alfalfa and that should be plenty. I’d give a dog the size of yours about 1 1/2 tsp. per day. You’ll need to supplement with vitamin e, for a dog the size of yours I’d give 200 i.u. daily or 400 i.u. every other day. Any vitamin e for humans will do, but I order mine from vitacost – I use the “Vitamin E & Tocotrienol Complex” because it has all 4 tocopherols and all 4 tocotrienols (most vitamin e supplements just contain alpha tocopherol). For fish oil I’m currently using Iceland Pure Sardine & Anchovy blend and Carlson cod liver oil, but any quality fish oils will do (I like buying in liquid form so I can mix it in with the food, but you could certainly get capsules if your dog will eat them). This is optional, but I do give my dogs coconut oil every other day and a plant-based omega 3-6-9 on the opposite days as the coconut oil.

I’d love to make you a menu plan, but because I don’t know exactly which cuts of meat will be available to you it’ll be more like a “template”. I’ll give some options and just use what you can get. One of my dogs – Gertie – is an active 70 lb. 2 year old as well so I’ll give you measurements based on what I would feed her. Obviously metabolisms vary from dog to dog so if you find this is too much or too little food feel free to reduce or increase the amounts, just keep everything proportionate. I’m also not sure how many times a day you feed, but I’ll assume you feed two meals a day.

Breakfast:
-5 mornings per week feed 12 oz. boneless red muscle meat (beef, lamb, buffalo, etc. – can use lean ground, chunks, heart, tripe, or some combination of these). 2 mornings per week feed 6 oz. liver and 6 oz. of another organ or any combination of other organs (kidney, spleen, lungs, pancreas, brain, etc.)
-1/2 C. cooked & pureed vegetables (whichever vegetables you want, can add fruit a couple times per week).
-Optional: 1/4 C. cottage cheese, kefir, plain yogurt or goat’s milk (can do this every day or a few days a week)
-1 1/2 tsp. whole food supplement (like a kelp-alfalfa blend or my homemade blend)
-1 tsp. fish oil (alternate between a fish body oil and cod liver oil)
-Optional: 1/2 tsp. coconut oil or a plant-based omega oil (like flax or evening primrose)
-Once or twice a week: 1 tsp ground pumpkin seeds, pecans, almonds or sunflower seeds
-3/4 tsp. ground egg shell (cheap source of calcium, leave eggshells out to dry then put them through a coffee grinder the next day) or 600-750 mg. of a calcium supplement of your choice (if your butcher sells meat/bone grinds for large animals like beef you could certainly use these and omit the calcium, but most butchers don’t have the equipment to grind heavy bones, so the calcium will have to be added separately)
-200 i.u. vitamin e (or 400 i.u. every other day)

*You can feed this same meal for breakfast daily, just rotate in new protein sources, switch up the extras (cottage cheese, yogurt, nuts and seeds, etc.) and feed a variety of vegetables and fruits.

Dinner (I often alternate between these two dinners for my dogs):
-Chicken back or leg quarter
-8 oz. Gizzards or hearts or boneless chicken (ground or chunks)
-Whole egg with shell
OR
-2 Turkey necks (about 6 oz. each)
-8 oz. Turkey hearts or gizzards or boneless turkey (ground or chunks)

Remember the more variety you can feed the better! Feed as many different protein sources as you can, using as many types of organs as possible, different vegetables and different fats. Each meal doesn’t have to supply every possible vitamin and mineral your dog needs, but over time the diet should balance. So the more variety you can feed the wider variety of nutrients your dog will get.

[skippy5761]

Hi Hound Dog Mom,
Hi Hound Dog Mom,
Really appreciate you taking the time and all the info. Definitely will take the time to read all articles and do research on the raw diet Thread. My older is a finicky eater and has major joint problems, had both ACL repairs down at age 6, she is an American Golden Retriever, my baby is 2 an is an English Cream Golden. Goldens have a tendency to put on weight, so this is one of the reasons I’m looking at a raw diet along with the other benefits from it. My first golden passed from renal failure, so you can understand my concern about high proteins and kidney function. Feeding Core ocean and Merrick Buffalo, both above average kibble, but want to get away from it from everything I have been reading. Thank you again.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Skippy5761 –

You should check out the Raw Diet thread. I have three bloodhounds – including a senior – that all eat raw ranging from 45% – 55% protein at each meal. My senior is in excellent health. Senior dogs actually need up to 50% more protein than adult dogs, they just need high quality protein which you would get with a raw diet. Some believe high levels of protein stress the kidneys of older dogs but this isn’t true, low quality protein (like the rendered, high processed proteins in kibble) stress the kidneys.

Here is an article by Dr. Becker titled “Why 84% of Pet Owners Don’t Know What to Feed Their Aging Pets.”

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/05/05/surprising-findings-from-tufts-study-of-37-senior-dog-foods.aspx

Here’s a video from Dr. Becker titled “The Nutrient Your Pets need More of as They Age.”

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/04/26/make-this-mistake-with-your-pets-food-and-you-could-destroy-their-kidney-and-liver.aspx

Here is an article on the effects of a high protein diet on renal function:

http://files.championpetfoods.com/Effects_of_High_Protein_on_Renal_Function.pdf

Hope that helps 🙂

[skippy5761]

Need feedback on feeding older dogs(12) and higher protein foods. Considering switching
My 2 year old and my 12 year old to a raw diet. Concerned about protein levels. Was looking at the raw diets from Answers. Any suggestions, just starting to do some serious research into raw diets. Thanks

[Hound Dog Mom]

weimlove –

I would say that if you shop smart, homemade is without a doubt the cheapest route to go. I actually invested in some freezers – I bought one new and got two used off craig’s list – and order in bulk 300 lb. shipments. I get all my meat from a supplier that supplies grocery stores and restaurants, they’ll supply dog kennels too but have a 300 lb. minimum. For me it was worth it, my dog’s are large and eat a lot anyways so it really only takes me about 8 weeks to go through my 300 lb. order and the prices are so much cheaper than what I’d have to pay at the grocery store. If raw is something you really want to get into and continue it may be worth considering something like this – since you only have one dog you could even see if there’s someone else in your area interested in raw and you could go in on orders together to reach the minimum order quantity. I’m sure it’d be possible to find a wholesale distributor like this in most areas. Butchers are great too, if you can find an independently owned butcher (rather than a big chain grocery store) they’d probably be more willing to cater to your needs for certain cuts of meat as well – meaning you could probably get them to save things like kidneys, lungs, etc. etc. that usually get thrown out. Hare Today and My Pet Carnivore are two other great places to get supplies (they have very reasonable prices and shipping prices) – they sell whole ground animals and also hard to find items like certain organs and green tripe. In generally boneless meat costs a lot more than bone-in meat, which is what I think makes the pre-mixes pricey – you have to use all boneless meat then pay for the pre-mix on top of it. A final suggestion for keeping costs low would be that when you’re feeding boneless meat (you’ll have to feed some of course to balance out the phosphorus in the RMBs) go with things like gizzards, hearts and green tripe – I know these things sound a lot less desirable to a person but they’re quality protein for dogs and supply a lot more nutrients than things like boneless skinless chicken breast and extra lean ground beef and they’re way cheaper.

As for supplements to add, assuming you’re feeding a balanced mixture of 80% muscle meat, 10% organ meat and 10% bone I’d recommend adding vitamin e (200 i.u. or so a day or 400 i.u. every few days should be plenty for a dog the size of yours), greens (some variety of kelp, alfalfa, spirulina, etc. rotate if you want). I like to give cod liver oil every other day to ensure my dogs are getting enough vitamin d – use this sparingly though as most varieties have excessive levels of vitamin a, I use Carlson brand because it has the lowest amount of vitamin a and I give a sardine/anchovy oil blend on the opposite days that I give cod liver oil. Dairy is optional, I do find that it stretches out the food a bit though and cuts the cost and I like giving kefir a few times a week for probiotics. I think it’s beneficial to give ground nuts or seeds once or twice a week – every once in a while I just throw some pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds or pecans in the coffee grinder and give each dog about a tsp.

Concerning vegetables, many don’t feel that they’re necessary. Vegetables aren’t part of a dog’s natural diet and I do agree that as long as everything else I described above is provided that they probably aren’t necessary, but I do strongly feel that when they’re provided in small quantities they can be a beneficial addition to the dog’s diet. They provide a lot of antioxidants and with all the chemicals our dogs are exposed to in this day and age antioxidants can help the immune system a great deal. The important thing is that they need to be lightly cooked and pureed – dogs don’t produce the enzyme necessary to break down the cellulose in the cell walls of the plant matter, so cooking and pureeing in a sense “pre-digests” the veggies so that the dog can obtain the nutrients. I’d avoid any starchy vegetables (like potatoes and peas) and onion (toxic to dogs). Some of my favorites to use are are spinach, celery, carrots, kale, broccoli, collard greens, mustard greens, squash, pumpkin, etc. Fruit isn’t necessary either, but I think a small amount of berries or apple once or twice a week is healthy.

[weimlove]

Tox,
Wow! That was alot of information, but once i read it a few times and let it sink in, it was very useful and helpful. My dog received his one year booster last May, and I am about to transition him to a raw diet so that will definintly build up his immune system. I am also definintly going to consider titer testing, as I think that would be a great alternative to unnecessary vaccines. Thanks so much for posting all of the great information.

[Shawna]

Glad the recommended sites were helpful 🙂 The dog in my avatar (my Audrey) was born with kidney disease. She started showing symptoms as early as 6 weeks old and was officially diagnosed at her 1 year blood work. Audrey received only her first set of puppy shots (at the breeders before coming to me) and has never been vaccinated for rabies (she is exempt for life due to her disease). I truly believe in minimal vaccination, minimal toxic exposure (heartworm, flea/tick, yard chemicals, fluoridated water etc), species appropriate diets etc. Audrey is living proof. She is now 6 and 1/2 years old and still in excellent health (still has kidney disease but she’s not sick). She’s been raw fed since she was weaned. I used to home make her diet but life got busy and I don’t have the time to do it properly right now so I feed commercial raw.. I foster too and from this Audrey has been exposed to giardia, coccidia, ringworm, kennel cough etc. If she does get ill from these it is always short lived and she to date has not required medical intervention for anything… She’s VERY healthy despite having kidney disease. Imagine how healthy an already healthy dog can be with the right food and limited toxic exposures..? 🙂

[weimlove]

Ok, I think I will start with ground chicken, and use the higher amount of meat to pre mix version. I also will feed a rmb everyday and use chicken back, necks, etc. I will also be sticking to the smaller meaty rmb’s instead of the larger bones like the lamb one I fed yesterday. For now, I will use the pre mix just to begin a raw diet, but someday I would love to create my own raw meal and add the correct amounts of meat, organs, and bones. It is probably cheaper to create your own raw meal since you can get quality ingredients at the butcher for very cheap.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Weimlove –

Oftentimes when I fed my dogs more dense, weight-bearing bones from large ruminants (cows, buffalo, sheep, etc.) they threw up shards about 8-12 hours after chewing the bone. For this reason I now stick with raw meaty bones. There are two types of bones 1) Recreational bones – these are going to be your marrow bones, knuckle bones, etc. and will be from large animals like cows, buffalo and sheep. These bones are not completely consumable (meaning your dog shouldn’t be able to eat the entire bone) and don’t provide a whole lot of nutrition, they are more just for fun chewing pleasure. 2) Raw Meaty Bones (you’ll often see these referred to as “RMBs). RMBs are completely consumable (meaning your dog should be be able to eat the entire thing) and provide a lot of nutrition. RMBs typically include poultry bones (chicken necks, chicken backs, chicken feet, turkey necks, duck necks, etc.) but for some larger dogs that have more powerful jaws, non-weight bearing bones of large ruminants (such as pork or beef or lamb necks or rib bones) can be considered RMBs as well. I no longer give my dogs recreational bones because of the issue with puking up the shards (I believe that because the bones are so dense they aren’t highly digestible, which results in the puking) and because I’ve read several reports of dogs actually breaking teeth on them or wearing down their teeth over time. There’s also a chance that your dog may have puked after the bone due to high fat content. Recreational bones contain marrow and marrow is very high in fat, if your dog is just switching to a raw diet and isn’t accustomed to this it could have resulted in some stomach upset. I’d recommend getting some RMBs for your dog. Primal does sell some RMBs but you could likely get them for a lot cheaper at a butcher. I get chicken backs for $0.40/lb. and turkey necks for $0.60/lb.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi weimlove –

Great choice on switching to raw, you’ll notice a big difference in your dog’s health. I agree with everything Shawna said. I just wanted to add some info on a pre-mix I like. I feed mostly homemade (you can check out a weekly feeding schedule for my dogs on the “Suggested Raw Dog Food Menus?” thread) however I use Urban Wolf Pre-mix three mornings a week. What I like about Urban Wolf versus other pre-mixes is that it’s a fine powder and in my experience digests better (with pre-mixes like Sojo’s I notice an increase in stool volume and pieces of undigested veggies coming out) and that it relies on whole foods for nutrition – the only “vitamin” added is calcium, everything else comes from whole foods and I like that you have to add organ meat so your dog gets a lot of necessary nutrients from the organs rather than from added synthetic vitamins and minerals. You also need to add oil (but I’d recommend just adding an omega 3 and omitting the omega 6 oil they call for in the recipe, it’s not necessary to add the omega 6 oil and it results in the end recipe being too high in fat – you can see how I prepare it on the menus thread if you’re interested). The only downside of Urban Wolf, for me, is that it does contain white potato (although it’s pretty far down on the ingredients list and not a major component) – but I only use it a few mornings a week so it’d not of big concern for me. If you’re using only pre-mixes every day it’d probably be best to rotate and use several different pre-mixes. Here’s some good info on pre-mixes and it explains several of the options out there: http://dogaware.com/diet/dogfoodmixes.html . I’d recommend feeding an even rotation of white meat and red meat, don’t rely on one or the other as they have different types of fats and if you only feed one or the other it would throw off the fat balance in your dog’s diet. The more variety the better. I’d also recommend feeding raw meaty bones at least two or three times a week this way your dog can get the full dental benefits a raw diet has to offer. I have large dogs and usually feed things like turkey necks, chicken backs, chicken leg quarters, duck necks, etc. Chicken necks and chicken wings work well for smaller dogs. I’d avoid the weight bearing bones of large ruminants (such as marrow bones, knuckle bones, etc.) as they are too dense and can potentially chip a tooth or over time your dog can wear their teeth down – in my experience they also don’t digest well either, I used to feed them to my dogs occasionally and it seemed like they’d always puke up bone shards. Good luck! Be sure to come back if you have any questions, quite a few of us here feed raw and would love to help. 🙂

[Shawna]

Weimlove ~~ for clarification, The Honest Kitchen foods are dehydrated versus freeze dried. I personally like freeze drying better but I like the lack of potato in The Honest Kitchen and that they are guaranteed to use human grade foods. That being said, I think it is as important to rotate the starch etc as it is the proteins. I rotate through the premixes from See Spot Live Longer, Honest Kitchen, Grandma Lucy’s and Sojo. I will use others as they become locally available.

When using a premix, unless it specifies, you don’t need to add liver and shouldn’t add bone. Everything is in the premix to balance the meat you add. If you want to add liver I’d just do so in the form of treats. I dehydrate organic liver for my pups and they LOVE it. In a home made diet you only add 5% of the diet as liver (and 5% as other organs — heart, kidneys etc) so liver treats should be ample to an already balanced diet.

I also use complete and balanced commercial raw products in my rotation. I like Darwins and Bravo Balance. Bravo also has some meat only options that are great to add to the premixes (salmon, buffalo and venison are the options available).