[anonymous]

Hope this article helps some of the readers
https://www.petmd.com/blogs/nutritionnuggets/jcoates/2012/mar/dogs_bones_dangerous_combination-13528

Dogs and Bones: A Dangerous Combination

Dogs have been chewing on bones for thousands of years. This is what nature intended, right? Well maybe, but it’s an activity that is not without its risks.

As a veterinarian, I’ve seen the ill-effects of feeding dogs bones more times than I can count. The risks are significant enough that the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has even gotten involved by posting the following “10 reasons why it’s a bad idea to give your dog a bone” on their Consumer Updates website.

Broken teeth. This may call for expensive veterinary dentistry.

Mouth or tongue injuries. These can be very bloody and messy and may require a trip to see your veterinarian.

Bone gets looped around your dog’s lower jaw. This can be frightening or painful for your dog and potentially costly to you, as it usually means a trip to see your veterinarian.

Bone gets stuck in esophagus, the tube that food travels through to reach the stomach. Your dog may gag, trying to bring the bone back up, and will need to see your veterinarian.

Bone gets stuck in windpipe. This may happen if your dog accidentally inhales a small enough piece of bone. This is an emergency because your dog will have trouble breathing. Get your pet to your veterinarian immediately!

Bone gets stuck in stomach. It went down just fine, but the bone may be too big to pass out of the stomach and into the intestines. Depending on the bone’s size, your dog may need surgery or upper gastrointestinal endoscopy — a procedure in which your veterinarian uses a long tube with a built-in camera and grabbing tools — to try to remove the bone from the stomach.

Bone gets stuck in intestines. This will cause a blockage and it may be time for surgery.

Constipation due to bone fragments. Your dog may have a hard time passing the bone fragments because they’re very sharp and they scrape the inside of the large intestine or rectum as they move along. This causes severe pain and may require a visit to your veterinarian.

Severe bleeding from the rectum. This is very messy and can be dangerous. It’s time for a trip to see your veterinarian.

Peritonitis. This nasty, difficult-to-treat bacterial infection of the abdomen is caused when bone fragments poke holes in your dog’s stomach or intestines. Your dog needs an emergency visit to your veterinarian as peritonitis can kill your dog.

I look at feeding bones in the same way I do letting dogs run loose. Is it natural? Yes. Do dogs like it? Yes. Are there some potential benefits? Yes … until misfortune strikes. There are many ways to safely satisfy your dog’s desire to chew (e.g., toys made out of twisted rope fibers or dense rubber), to promote dental hygiene (e.g., daily tooth brushing or dental diets), and to provide your dog with the high-quality foods and balanced nutrition he needs to stay healthy.
Dr. Jennifer Coates

[Ania V]

Hello,
At first, thank you for this conversation which I read and has helped me a lot. Please, excuse my english as I am from Greece. My dog Maya is 16 years old and has kidney disease for 1,5 year (May 2018) with her BUN at 70 and Creatinine at 3.2 in her latest tests. Creatinine has been stabilised all this time around 3 but BUN has unfortunately increased. It was 56, around 4 months ago. I cook and feed her home food with beef all this 1,5 year with white bio rice, bio vegetables like butternut pumpkin, carrots, cale, green beans, sweet potato, bio apples and bio eggs (no yolks at all). I also give her carbonate calcium in her food and omega-3. Also, my vet subscribed PRONEFRA for the kidneys which Maya takes from the beginning and HEMOVET the last 4 months because her haematocrit (HCT) was a bit low (39). Now it is 42.4 again but the vet suggested to keep giving them. Her PHOS is normal at 4.6, never high or low.
My question is what can I do to reduce BUN. I read that you suggest Probiotics and Acacia Fibers. Would that help Maya’s case? I would appreciate any suggestion and help as I am doing all this time a massive effort to keep her as healthy as I can. My vet has unfortunately confused me sometimes. For example, she told me when we had the latest tests that I should reduce the beef in her food in order to reduce protein. Is it a good idea to reduce protein now? She also told me to give Maya brown rice and not white, but I ‘ve read that this is not a good idea. I am confused and in need of advice regarding BUN’s latest increase.

Thank you in advance.

Ania

[GSDsForever]

What do we know about coconut flour or coconut as an ingredient in dog foods?

Obviously, it’s a more recent ingredient in pet foods, so novel.

I realize some are wanting to avoid ALL more novel ingredients at this time, along with legumes (or legumes and potatoes) and exotic proteins, with the most sweeping definition of novel or exotic from Lisa Freeman DVM DACVN at Tufts, and stick with the most traditional carb & meat ingredients. (Other veterinary nutritionists do not include things like salmon/fish among “exotic” ingredients.)

But I just wonder what is known about coconut flour as used in dog food — and what we should know. My understanding had been that, for all the potential health benefits of coconut or as a hypoallergenic alternative carb, that it has very high fiber. I would have thought too high for use in dog food.

So how could it work in a formula as a primary ingredient? How can a formula keep a low fiber %? Does combining it with an almost pure starch balance it out enough? Is there a refined version?

• This topic was modified 4 years, 6 months ago by GSDsForever.

[GSDsForever]

Joann,

I would work *with* your vet to select a food that your dog will do well on. You need to have open, two way dialogue, and discuss your concerns and questions.

I think that it’s wise that your vet recommended avoiding high legume/potato foods in light of DCM concerns and ongoing research. My vets recommended similarly. It’s just an unnecessary risk for most dogs at this time.

Ditto foods with the most unusual/exotic proteins, like kangaroo or rabbit. (Lamb, either lamb & rice or lamb & legumes, especially low meat protein and high ash or fiber, also are riskier.) All of this is especially true in foods from sketchier companies, ones with less safe long term history for their formulas and/or less nutritional expertise in formulating.

Dogs need nutrients. Dogs DON’T need to eat any *particular* food ingredient, whether legumes (like peas or lentils) or potatoes or a grain like corn or any particular meat. So they lose nothing by ditching one or more of these ingredients and choosing an alternative at this time.

Yes, you can find a number of foods without chicken, dairy, or eggs. I’ve been feeding grain inclusive and free of all 7 top dog food allergens (which include chicken, dairy, eggs ), following a food allergy diet elimination trial. Currently, I’m feeding fish based foods. You can look through these forums for chicken-free foods, especially under DCM threads, and then check to see if they include eggs. (Dairy is far less common an ingredient in dog foods.)

How well do you know your vet? I think that if you don’t trust your vet, have confidence in your vet, that’s a problem. In that case, you need to either find a different vet or work on building your relationship with your vet in order to have good discussions, which you then can feel good about, trust in. Talk things through with your vet. Express your concerns. My vet and I discuss everything and reach decisions together.

On the other hand, I wouldn’t just go see ANY vet or blindly trust what any vet says just because he is a DVM. There are good and bad vets out there, and ones with more and less experience/knowledge and passion.

p.s. Looking toward the long term, I would talk to your vet about issues you believe your dog to have with chicken, eggs, dairy in foods. Do a strict diet elimination trial and re-challenge at some point, using a prescription food or homemade, to confirm that you must avoid these foods. It will make your life easier.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 6 months ago by GSDsForever.

[Susan]

Hi Genevieve,

Oh poor Ollie, video was hard to watch,
I called this the Gulps.
yes this is BAD acid reflux coming up into the throat/mouth, please give either liquid Mylanta or Slippery Elm – 4mls so it soothes Ollies esophagus & pushes the acid down, or I give a dry biscuit “Jatz” wafer biscuit.
I wonder if Ollie has LES??
Have you done Endoscope & Biopsies??
My Patch suffers with IBD – Helicobacter, LES, Environment Allergies, Food Sensitivities.

Same as you we tried most things…
Vet Diets – didn’t help cause of the high Omega Oils, Beet Pulp & Pre-biotics Patches acid reflux seem to get worse.
Carafate made him feel sick, he’d gulped grass after taken Carafate.
Zantac, – taken 18months it worked then it didn’t work like it wasn’t strong enough.
Slippery Elm Slurry 4ml works & helps soothe the esophagus & settle stomach..
Buy Slippery Elm powder, put 1/2 a teaspoon in a cup, boil jug & slowly add boiling water & quickly stir till you have a slurry, not too thick or too thin so you can pull up 4ml into a syringe, make sure its not hot when you give to Ollie, it cools quickly.
Omeprazole-20ml for 1 yr the Omeprazole helped then it didn’t some days.
Patch went down hill November 2017 after we moved, I nilly put him to sleep but before I put him to sleep I woke up 1 morning & thought i’ll do another Endoscope & Biopsies to see if he has stomach cancer?? His other vet quickly admitted him for the next day 10am, he had gingivitis back molars from the acid coming up esophagus into his mouth he eats kibble 🙁 wet foods makes his LES worse, he gulps up wet digest food, wwhere dry kibble stays down better & when it digest it moves onto his small bowel instead of being burped back up, he doesn’t have Megaesophagus.
His Endoscope showed he had red inflamed esophagus & red wind pipe this is what made him really ill & not his happy go lucky self, when I heard his vet say he has red inflamed throat & wind pipe, it broke my heart, he was suffering like this & Staffys are bad for telling you they are in pain, they hold a lot of pain my vet said 🙁
I thought the Omeprazole was reducing his Hydrochloric acid?? his Helicobacter had come back mildly not bad like it was 6 yrs before when I had rescued him, the vet said the Omeprazole must of kept it at bay, then the vet said he thinks his Lower Esophageal Sphincter Flap in between his stomach & esophagus isn’t closing properly & the acid is washing back up into mouth causing Gulps, red esophagus etc
I suffer with GORDS, LES & Barrets Esophagus & I take Pantoprazole twice a day, my Gastro Specialist said Pantoprazole seem to work best for people who suffer with LES & GORDS so I told Patches vet Simon can we PLEASE try Pantoprazole instead of the Omeprazole, Patch has 2 vets his easy going lady vet who has a more Holistic approach & then Patch has Simon who does Patches Endoscopes, Biopsies & removes Patches lumps, he’s very very good vet educated all over the world but he agrues with you & says all PPI – acid blockers are ALL the same BUT they’re NOT I agreed back lol we argued for 1 hour, Omeprazole didn’t agree with me, neither did Parriot & Pantoprazole worked straight away so all PPI must work in different ways, even my Gastro specialist said people all react different with PPI – acid blockers but Simon said its just a way the big drug companies make more money.. Oh well I have proven him wrong cause
my Patch started to get better & hasn’t vomited in 20 months since taking Pantoprazole, he started on 20mg taken in morning, morning is best to take a PPI my Gastro special told me, a PPI doesn’t have to be before breakfast but it is better, so as soon as Patch wakes up around 6.30am I give his 20mg-Pantoprazole with a syringe with water so the tablet goes down his esophagus then he eats 10-15mins later.
End of Summer every March cause of Patches Allergies all thru Spring & Summer Patches Immune System is over worked & then it crashes & he has a IBD Flare EVERY March (I live Australia) causing bad acid reflux again so I had to increase his Pantoprazole last Summer so now he has 20mg-Pantoprazole every 12 hours

He’s a new dog, no more vomiting, no waking up early hours of morning wanting to gulp grass, no more Helicobacter..
I feed 5 smaller meals, Kibble 7am-1/2 a cup kibble, 9am-1/2 a cup kibble, 5pm-1/2 a cup & 7pm-1/3 a cup kibble & at 12pm lunch he gets wet food but not much 1/3 of a can at the moment he loves his Royal Canine Intestinal Low Fat wet can food but I get Paper towel & soak up all the oils when I get out the loaf from the can, as omega oils can cause acid reflux & Dr Judy Morgans old dog who has just passed age 18 yrs old kept having Pancreatitis Flare & it was the fish oils she was adding to his diet..

You will find Vets cant diagnose & wont be able to really help when it comes to the Stomach problems, my vet tells me Susan you know there’s no tests or blood test to know what’s happening with Patches stomach unless you have Endoscope & Biopsies, Biopsies will give us answers to what’s wrong with stomach/small bowel, this is probably way no vets have any answer & have to guess what’s happening with Ollie 🙁
Have you ever done the Triple Therapy meds?
Metronidazole, Amoxicillin every 12 hours with a meal & a PPI once a day in morning taken for 3 weeks.
Keep diet low in fiber, low in carbs, low/med fat & med protein & feed small meals & ask vet about LES a lot of aging dogs suffer with LES but we think Patch had LES when I rescued him age 4yrs old..

[GSDsForever]

For Robert B:

For your list of 13 Australian Shepherd cases from the FDA’s 560 DCM-Diet case reports, here are the 3 you missed:

1)Wegmans GF Nature Natural Dog Food Turkey & Pea
*grocery brand, made for them by Ainsworth Pet Nutrition (now under Smuckers)

Dried Peas, Tapioca, Pea Protein (Ingredients 3, 4, 5) . . . Pea Fiber (11)
Also includes legume Alfalfa Meal (14) — + Flaxseed both boosting protein (7)

2)Pure Balance GF Wild & Free (Unspecified Variety)
*Walmart brand, made for them by Ainsworth Pet Nutrition (now under Smuckers)

Formulas E.G. Salmon, Trout, Beef & Boar
Dried Ground Peas, Tapioca, Pea Protein (Ingredients 3, 4, 5)
Lentil Powder, Pea Protein . . . Dried Peas, Ground Potato Ingredients 3, 4 . . . 6, 7)
Pea Starch . . . Chickpeas, Peas (Ingredients 3 . . . 6, 7)

3)Taste Of the Wild GF High Prairie
*Diamond’s own brand, manufactured by Diamond

Sweet Potatoes, Peas, Potatoes . . . Potato Protein, Pea Protein
(Ingredients 4, 5, 6 . . . 14, 15)

• This reply was modified 4 years, 7 months ago by GSDsForever.

[GSDsForever]

Hi Melissa.

You do have some options among veterinary therapeutic/prescription diets for your dog’s medical needs. Hills, Purina, and Royal Canin all offer options for pancreatitis and digestive issues, and they differ from one another.

When you mention Hills prescription diets, encountering all chicken based formulas, did you happen to try this one:

https://www.chewy.com/hills-prescription-diet-id-digestive/dp/54523

THIS lowfat formula for pancreatitis is primarily turkey and pork organ meat + egg, along with highly digestible (easy on the GI system) white rice. I can see that there is a bit of “chicken flavor”. . . but honestly, it’s pretty far down the ingredient list at #14, AFTER even the start of minerals & vitamins.

The protein is about 22-23% dry matter minimum, but remember that it’s the overall amino acids complete profile, high quality ingredients, and high digestibility that’s important vs a crude protein minimum. Those ingredients genuinely do look high quality, and like they could really help your dog, and taste pretty good to him too!

But if that doesn’t work for you, Royal Canin’s can formula does NOT contain chicken and is 25% protein, lower fat at 4% Min to 10% Max than Hill’s. (Purina’s is 32% Min protein dry matter in the canned, but has chicken.) See below, for therapeutic diet examples:

https://www.petmd.com/dog/what-you-need-know-about-dog-food-pancreatitis-0

As far as OTC diets go, when you start adding multiple specific medical condition needs — lowfat pancreatitis suitable, limited ingredient, good for colitis and sensitive GI system, no chicken — along with additional preferences such as high protein for senior life stage, or let’s say you want only a dry food (vs can), it becomes pretty difficult to impossible to find that “unicorn” OTC food. OTC foods are primarily made for healthy, average dogs without particular medical conditions, let alone multiple.

But if you want to expand your options to OTC formulas, try asking your vet to give you the fat level he is recommending for pancreatitis, ask him whether he thinks you need to avoid chicken in formulas (and why or why not) and discuss what issues you believe your dog has with eating chicken, and review a product you pick with him.

For example, the fat minimum and maximum of the Hill’s Lowfat I/D has a pretty big range listed, just under 8% Min. to about 16% Max. Ask about recommended fiber level too. Discuss what your vet thinks you should look for in protein level for your senior and why.

For example, brands make lowfat foods including higher protein ones, and you may find some that don’t contain chicken. Solid Gold, just for one example, makes a “Fit & Fabulous” very lowfat formula (6%), with ~29% minimum protein on a dry matter basis. Fiber is 9% max. The formula may not be as digestible as the Hills & your vet’s recommendations, or have the right nutrient profile features. Then again, your vet may think it’s worth trying this one or another.

[Ja M]

I found the same issue with my Yorkies….one in particular. But he also has a sensitive tummy… its common in the breed. What resolves it, regardless of the brand he is on… is adding fiber. I add a heaping tablespoon of canned pumpkin to every bowl that has any kibble in it, for all 3 of mine. I also do not feed straight kibble. They need fluid to digest kibble well. Its dry. Imagine feeding dry pasta noodles to your kids. 3 meals a day, let alone even once would be awful! IMHO. So, add water to kibble always if you do feed it. And do so especially if you top it with anything freeze dried or dehydrated. Dogs need fluid to digest dry foods. Last, wont hurt to mix some cooked fresh food, some good canned food or diced up soft chilled roll, to kibble. FYI: Kibble was only invented because during WW2 when the US Govt needed all available aluminum for weaponry and aircraft the pet food companies had to come up with another way to package cat/ dog food. Our Dog /cat food was in cans or dehydrated, b4 that. And, folks fed table scraps and leftovers to their pets back then, and whatever they could catch on their own on the farm. City dwellers generally didnt have dogs unless wealthy. PS… I work in the industry. Read. Your. Labels.

[joanne l]

First off weight management foods for dogs have high fiber, which may make them poop too much. So I would fine a dry food that has low fat and low calories. Calories about 350 to 380 per cup and fat no more than 12%. Anytime you see high fiber in dog food you may also see more stools. Also look for about 4% fiber. When fiber goes pass 5 or 6% it is too much. That is my opinion.

[Patricia A]

Melissa regarding CJ and IBD..Inflammatory Bowel Disease in Dogs
What is inflammatory bowel disease?
Inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) is not a specific disease. Rather, it is a specific reaction that the stomach or intestines have to chronic irritation.

What are the clinical signs of IBD?
If the stomach is involved, your dog will have chronic vomiting. If the intestines are involved, chronic diarrhea will occur. This is the most common form. In some dogs, both parts of the digestive tract are involved, so both vomiting and diarrhea occur. If the disease occurs for several weeks to months, weight loss and poor appetite are common.

When does IBD generally occur?
IBD is most common in middle-aged to older dogs, but it can occur in younger dogs as well.

How is IBD diagnosed?
The chronic irritation that causes IBD stimulates the body to send cells from the immune system to the affected area. The most commonly found cells are lymphocytes and plasmacytes. Occasionally, eosinophils and neutrophils will be found. Thus, the disease is diagnosed when these cells are identified in abnormal levels in the tissue. A pathologist is responsible for this part of the diagnosis; his/her report usually calls the disease lymphoplasmacytic gastritis (relating to the stomach) or lymphoplasmacytic colitis (relating to the colon).

In order to obtain these cells, a biopsy is required. In most cases, an endoscope is passed into the dog’s stomach or colon (while the dog is under anesthesia). A tiny biopsy instrument is passed through the endoscope and used to take small samples of the lining (mucosa) of the affected organ.

Is this the only test required for diagnosis?
The tissue reaction that occurs in the stomach or colon is diagnosed with a biopsy. However, determining what causes the tissue reaction to occur requires further testing. Tests or treatments should be performed to rule out stomach and intestinal parasites, cancer and infections. Diseases such as diabetes are also considered. In addition, diseases of the kidney, liver and pancreas should also be ruled out.

How is IBD treated?
The ideal way to treat this problem is to diagnose the underlying disease that is causing the reaction. Sometimes the above mentioned tests will do that and sometimes a cause cannot be found. In the latter situation, the disease is called idiopathic. That means that a disease is present, but there is no known cause. Many cases of IBD are considered idiopathic.

Some dogs with IBD respond to a change in diet. This is done in two ways. First, a food is chosen that contains a protein source that the dog has never had, such as duck or fish. If that is not effective, a high-fiber diet is tried. Unfortunately, a true food trial requires that the test diet be fed exclusively for four to six weeks. If dietary therapy is not successful or feasible, drugs are used to suppress the inflammatory reaction.

Do corticosteroids cause side effects in dogs?
Corticosteroids, like prednisolone, are notorious for causing a variety of side effects in humans. However, this is rarely the case in dogs.

To minimize any possible adverse effects, our goal is to use the lowest dose that is effective and to give it on an every other day schedule. It will be necessary to begin therapy with a rather high dose, but once response occurs, the dose is tapered to a minimal level.

Does this mean that I will be medicating my dog for the rest of his/her life?
Long-term therapy is required for many dogs. Generally, a dog is treated for a few months before prednisolone is discontinued to see if it is still needed. If the signs of vomiting or diarrhea recur, medication is resumed.

Are other anti-inflammatory drugs used?
Prednisolone is the most effective anti-inflammatory drug with the least side effects. However, it is not effective in all dogs. Sometimes a stronger drug is used initially to gain control of the disease. Then, prednisolone is tried again as a maintenance drug.

Could stomach infections be a cause of IBD?
Some spiral-shaped bacteria can cause vomiting in dogs. The most common are helicobacter pylori, which have been shown to be the cause of disease (including stomach ulcers) in humans and are also pathogens in dogs. However, they are also found in many normal dogs and humans. Therefore, finding spiral-shaped bacteria on biopsy is not always meaningful. It is considered a pathogen only if an associated inflammation is in the stomach mucosa.

What is the prognosis?
If a response occurs to diet change, the dog can be maintained on a this diet for the rest of his/her life (as long as it is balanced). If the dog responds to medication for stomach bacteria, a good prognosis is justified. If response occurs to corticosteroids, the long-term prognosis is also good if administration of the drug is feasible. However, if there is no response to diet or corticosteroids, the prognosis is more guarded. At that point, further testing is suggested to see if an underlying disease can be found.

[Patricia A]

Melissa I’m confused with your vet after all the testing and specifically a biopsy that he can’t give a definitive diagnosis of IBD? Ask for a copy of the test results also. Did he mention CJ needing to go on any meds such as steroids? Which food did the vet suggest Melissa?

Before you switch the food he suggests, try one more time of the just WHITE meat boiled chicken and white rice. NO VEGGIES at all just a few days and see how he does. I don’t believe in prescription diets myself for reasons here: https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/worlds-biggest-dog-food-scam/
I’m curious of which food he will suggest now. Please keep me updated.
Once IBD has been diagnosed, Wakshlag favors gradually switching a dog’s diet, if the main proteins have been common ones such as beef, chicken or lamb. The dog would be then fed a novel protein or hydrolyzed diet.
Yogurt is high in calcium and protein. It also can act as a probiotic, which can be good for the digestive system. If you are going to feed your dog yogurt, it should be plain and free of any added sweeteners, both natural and artificial.

Diet vs. Medicine

IBD cannot be cured and is often treated with antibiotics or other medicines designed to stop the gastrointestinal immune system from overproducing antigens. Most vets, however, prefer to manage the condition through diet and may prescribe a commercially made food or give you recipes to home-cook your dog’s food. Each dog is different and some will require a specific diet with only a few ingredients. Consult your vet before feeding your dog any homemade meals designed to manage his IBD.

A Proper Balance

Cooked meals for dogs suffering from IBD need to contain a good mix of proteins, fats and fiber. Foods rich in omega-3 fatty acids, such as fish and flaxseed oil, may help decrease intestinal inflammation and thus ease symptoms. Fresh meat or dairy protein sources, such as cheese, rabbit, venison and duck contain proteins that are broken down into more digestible nutrients.

Fiber and Fat

While some dogs with IBD do better when they eat more fiber, others do better when fiber is reduced. Vets often recommend fiber supplementation when IBD affects the colon, as fiber improves stool consistency and reduces the growth of harmful bacteria in the colon. Typically, high fiber foods, such as vegetables, are lower in fat. While fiber can trigger more bowel movements, the lower fat content from higher fiber diets often reduces diarrhea in dogs with IBD.

No People Treats

An important part of treatment for your dog’s IBD is keeping her away from people food. That means no table scraps, no bites of your sandwich and no feeding her bits of food that happen to fall on the floor. Also, avoid giving her most commercial dog treats, such as biscuits, which can be full of fillers and ingredients that will aggravate her stomach. Natural chew toys, or rawhides, also are out, as she likely will swallow pieces that flake off while she chews.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by Patricia A.

[GSDsForever]

Jessica,

Hi. Cool to hear from another German Shepherd lover. I’m a lifelong owner and really passionate about the breed.

You might consider Annamaet & Holistic Blend (division of Eagle Pack).

A few Annamaet grain-inclusive formulas, without gluten grains, that might work for you are the Extra & Ultra. (Along with Small Breed, these don’t include barley.)

One HS grain inclusive formula that I know, without gluten grains, is Sardine, Anchovy, & Salmon. The carb base is rice (brown & white) & oats for grains, plus pumpkin & flaxseed. No legumes and no potatoes.

Like you, I’ve been trying to find good, safe foods that are grain inclusive and without peas/lentils/chickpeas/legumes in the top 10 ingredients, also not potato heavy. Lamb & rice formulas have also been linked to DCM, as have high fiber diets.

While not needing gluten-free in our case, on my exclusion list for now are the top dog food allergens — beef, chicken, dairy, egg, wheat, corn, and soy. I have a food allergy dog and we haven’t entirely worked out what all her allergies include. So you can probably imagine it’s been challenging as well!

Both Eagle Pack Holistic Blend and Annamaet have long, excellent reputations for high quality foods and safety.

Annamaet, in particular, has been outstanding in their communication with me verbally & in writing, as they’ve fielded Qs about their feeding trials and testing of their products, their research including published peer reviewed, and their nutritionists who’ve formulated and oversee their formulas. (I would stick to their grain-inclusive for now though.) Their website lists online places to purchase their foods.

If I think of or come across any other foods that might work for you, I will pass the info on. Good luck!

• This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by GSDsForever.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by GSDsForever.

[Nadia K]

I agree that it is so confusing. Every time I think I might have found a good choice of kibble, someone will point out that it has an ingredient in it that is questionable. I have had my puppy on Farmina Ancestral grain lamb. She seems to like it but now people are saying to be careful because it has alfalfa in it which is a legume. It is not in the top five ingredients but it is still there. I subscribe to Whole Dog Journal. They recently sent an email with some updates to the whole DCM issue. This is the paragraph that I am paying the most attention to when choosing a food:

“For now, we would strongly recommend avoiding foods that use peas – including constituent parts of peas, such as pea starch, pea protein, and pea fiber, and especially multiple iterations of peas (such as green peas, yellow peas, pea protein, etc.) as major ingredients. If any one of these appears higher than the 6th or 7th ingredient on an ingredient list, for now, we’d switch to foods that do not display this trait.

Same goes for chickpeas (may be referred to as garbanzo beans), any other type of bean, and lentils.

We’d switch away from any foods containing more than one of these ingredients (peas, beans, or lentils).”

[Susan]

Hi Ashley,
sounds like he had bad acid reflux, what he had eaten for breakfast was still in stomach not digested properly & it would of smelt awful so imagine the taste when he brought it up, you should of let him eat some grass not much about 1 mins worth or gave 1 piece of very brown dry toast. .. or give ant acid med Zantac/Pepcid, or 5ml liquid Mylanta would of relieved discomfort straight away…
Why Magnus wanted to eat & eat was to take away the acid taste in his throat & the bad taste after vomiting acid & undigested food that came up his esophagus, bad acid reflux can cause stomach ulcers, burn throat/esophagus & wind pipe when bad..
Next time this happens do you have liquid Mylanta, get small bottle keep in the fridge give him 5mls in a 20ml syringe this helps straight away, then after 20-30mins give him a few plain dry biscuits, or white breed made into toast cut in pieces, or buy Slippery Elm Powder make into a slurry..
Put 1/2 a teaspoon slippery Elm powder in a cup, boil the jug, then slowly add boiling water & stir quickly till you make a slurry, don’t make it too thick cause you need to pull up into a syringe.. you make it thin but not too thin or thick, you don’t make a paste…
Give Slippery Elm Slurry when dog has nausea, has just vomited to line his esophagus & stomach, when he’s mouth licking, swallowing, has upset stomach or diarrhea..

With kibble you don’t want Protein % too low under 25% as the carb % goes up when protein & fat is low low.. High carbs can cause acid reflux as well.. I feed 25% + Protein, 13% max -Fat & Fiber-5% max, Carbs -30% & under.

Have a look at “Wellness Core Large Breed Adult” Patch does really well on Wellness Core L/B & Canidae Pure Wild formula’s for his Acid reflux…
https://www.wellnesspetfood.com/natural-dog-food/product-catalog/core-large-breed-large-breed
Wellness have their “Wellness Simple” formula’s, Patch did well on the Simple Turkey & Potato kibble, I have found Patch does best on Potato Grain Free diets for his acid reflux you just have to work out what agrees best with your dog
Also be careful with Omega Oils, Fish Oil, Salmon, Oil, Coconut Oil, Linseed Oil these oils can cause acid reflux, same with high fiber diets, some of the low fat weight management kibbles are high in fiber low in fat.. make sure you check the fiber stay under 6%
also High Kcals kibbles are very dense & harder to digest, so stay under 370Kcals per cup

also feed 3-4 smaller meals a day, so his stomach isn’t empty too long
I feed 7am, 12pm, 5pm & a very small meal 7-8pm-1/4 a cup kibble..

Here’s the Wellness range, its often on special this is when I buy it, when I have my 25% off voucher.

For Dogs

Here’s the” Acid Reflux in dogs” F/B group, Acid Reflux is very common in dogs, my vet said she see at least 1-2 cases a week, owners don’t know what wrong or happening with their dog.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1635198406751056/

[joanne l]

For the most part Wellness is a very good food. I do trust them even with the DCM scare, for some reason there formulas are in tip top shape. I don’t feed grain free, I don’t like the pea protein and pea fiber that some companies use. I have noticed that all the foods mentioned on the FDA list for DCM, they all have one thing in common, it is Pea Protein!!! These companies cleaver use pea protein to increase the protein % on the bag. I hope they get what they disserve. Wellness doesn’t use pea protein or pea fiber I don’t think. However, some people do use the same brand b/c they trust it, I don’t see anything wrong with that.
https://eliandjojosbakerybites.com/pea-protein-pea-fiber-pea-flour-and-pea-starch-in-dog-food-why/

• This reply was modified 4 years, 9 months ago by joanne l.

[joanne l]

Well, my thought on this is I would rather feed a grain in food b/c it is tried and true, plus I think legumes and peas have too much fiber and possibly can prohibit a dog from absorbing their nutrients. Plus some dogs poop a lot more on grain free which is not good either. Mine did and he couldn’t gain weight. And I don’t like that some companies use pea protein, to increase protein percentages that is not good. Zignatures is one of them that use it. Plus I don’t think dogs should eat such legumes anyway. I think the grains absorb easier, this is my opinion. Good luck. And I think grain free is a fad. And it is revealing it self possibly not to be a good diet.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 9 months ago by joanne l.

[Robert B]

In light of the most recent update issued regarding FDA CVM’s Investigation between the relationship between diet and canine heart disease (DVM), I decided to review the 500+ case reports from the 5-year period studied. The published incidence rate including breeds with a genetic propensity for DCM is estimated to be between 0.1-0.2%.

We own a 9-1/2 year old, neutered Australian Shepherd who we have been feeding Orijen dry foods all of his life. When I look at Orijen (we feed Adult, Regional Red & Senior) I see lugumes and pulses, but well down the ingredient list by weight. That said, there a dozen cases of DCM associated with the brand. I do realize that the incidence rate is influenced on how widely a food is selling.

There were 10 case reports of Australian Shepherds (the summary shows n=13 but I could not find them) and DCM out of the 515 canine cases reported (or about 2%). The observed rate out of the dog’s within the cases is > 10x the general population rate for ALL dogs. This struck me as not happening by “chance”.

I reviewed the listed dog foods fed to the Australian Shepherds and then looked into what their current top 10 ingredients for legumes, pulses and tubers:

Case 1) Nature’s Recipe Easy to Digest Fish meal and Potato recipe dry dog food: Potatoes
Case 2) Zignature Kangaroo and Lentil: Peas, Chickpeas, Pear Flower, Red Lentils, Green Lentils
Case 3) Fromm Pork and Pea: Peas, Chickpeas, Pea Flower, Pea Protein, Sweet Potatoes
Case 4) Blue Buffalo wilderness natures evolutionary diet with chicken and lifsource bits: Pea Protein, Peas, Pea Starch, Pea Fiber, Potatoes
Case 5a) Farmina N&D Pumpkin Formula Medium and Maxi: Pea Starch, Dried Pumpkin, Pea Fiber
Case 5b) Kirkland Natures Domain Salmon and Sweet Potato: Sweet Potatoes, Peas, Potatoes, Pea Protein, Potato Fibre
Case 5c) Kirkland Organic Chicken and Pea: Organic Peas, Organic Lentils, Organic Garbanzo Beans, Organic Sweet Potatoes, Organic Potatoes
Cases 6 & 7) Pine Forest Canine Recipe with Venison & Legumes – Taste of the Wild Pet Food: Garbanzo Beans, Peas, Lentils, Pea Protein, Pea Flour, Fava Beans
Case 8) Earthborn grain free (specific variety not declared): Peas, Pea Protein, Pea Starch, Chickpeas
Case 9) Hill’s Ideal Balance Grain Free Chicken and Potato: Potatoes, Yellow Peas, Pea Protein, Potato Starch
Case 10) Acana (all flavors except Chicken or Lamb): Whole Red Lentils, Whole Pinto Beans, Whole Green Peas, Whole Green Lentils, Whole Chickpeas

I see a consistent use of legumes or tubers as ingredients among these foods (including Hills!). I work in R&D and while I agree the root cause may not be fully understood and the rates shown in the pareto chart are biased by how widely used a food is I can see why the Agency sent out the notification. Given the > 90% rate in the reported cases of grain free, legume formulated foods, I have made the decision to move our Australian Shepherd to a new dry food. So I have been trying to identify high quality grain inclusive dry foods to replace Orijen. So far I have identified:

Farmina:
N&D Ancestral Grain Chicken & Pomegranate Senior Mini & Medium
N&D Ancestral Grains Grains Chicken & Pomegranate Senior Medium & Maxi

Fromm:
Adult Gold
Reduced Activity Senior Gold

Nature’s Logic:
Canine Beef Meal Feasts
Canine Chicken Meal Feasts
Canine Lamb Meal Feasts
Canine Turkey Meal Feasts

NutriSource
Performance
Adult
Lamb Meal & Rice
Beef & Rice

We will begin to titrate him off Orijen onto some of these foods. We will first buy small bags to see how he a) likes them and b) his stool quality and general energy/health.

Do any of you have any experience with these foods or have any other suggestions for me to consider?

[Robert B]

In light of the most recent update issued regarding FDA CVM’s Investigation between the relationship between diet and canine heart disease (DVM), I decided to review the 500+ case reports from the 5-year period studied. The published incidence rate including breeds with a genetic propensity for DCM is estimated to be between 0.1-0.2%.

We own a 9-1/2 year old, neutered Australian Shepherd who we have been feeding Orijen dry foods all of his life. When I look at Orijen (we feed Adult, Regional Red & Senior) I see lugumes and pulses, but well down the ingredient list by weight. That said, there a dozen cases of DCM associated with the brand. I do realize that the incidence rate is influenced on how widely a food is selling.

There were 10 case reports of Australian Shepherds (the summary shows n=13 but I could not find them) and DCM out of the 515 canine cases reported (or about 2%). The observed rate out of the dog’s within the cases is > 10x the general population rate for ALL dogs. This struck me as not happening by “chance”.
I reviewed the listed dog foods fed to the Australian Shepherds and then looked into what their current top 10 ingredients for legumes, pulses and tubers:

Case 1) Nature’s Recipe Easy to Digest Fish meal and Potato recipe dry dog food: Potatoes
Case 2) Zignature Kangaroo and Lentil: Peas, Chickpeas, Pear Flower, Red Lentils, Green Lentils
Case 3) Fromm Pork and Pea: Peas, Chickpeas, Pea Flower, Pea Protein, Sweet Potatoes
Case 4) Blue Buffalo wilderness natures evolutionary diet with chicken and lifsource bits: Pea Protein, Peas, Pea Starch, Pea Fiber, Potatoes
Case 5a) Farmina N&D Pumpkin Formula Medium and Maxi: Pea Starch, Dried Pumpkin, Pea Fiber
Case 5b) Kirkland Natures Domain Salmon and Sweet Potato: Sweet Potatoes, Peas, Potatoes, Pea Protein, Potato Fibre
Case 5c) Kirkland Organic Chicken and Pea: Organic Peas, Organic Lentils, Organic Garbanzo Beans, Organic Sweet Potatoes, Organic Potatoes
Cases 6 & 7) Pine Forest Canine Recipe with Venison & Legumes – Taste of the Wild Pet Food: Garbanzo Beans, Peas, Lentils, Pea Protein, Pea Flour, Fava Beans
Case 8) Earthborn grain free (specific variety not declared): Peas, Pea Protein, Pea Starch, Chickpeas
Case 9) Hill’s Ideal Balance Grain Free Chicken and Potato: Potatoes, Yellow Peas, Pea Protein, Potato Starch
Case 10) Acana (all flavors except Chicken or Lamb): Whole Red Lentils, Whole Pinto Beans, Whole Green Peas, Whole Green Lentils, Whole Chickpeas

I see a consistent use of legumes or tubers as ingredients among these foods (including Hills!). I work in R&D and while I agree the root cause may not be fully understood and the rates shown in the pareto chart are biased by how widely used a food is I can see why the Agency sent out the notification. Given the > 90% rate in the reported cases of grain free, legume formulated foods, I have made the decision to move our Australian Shepherd to a new dry food.

So I have been trying to identify high quality grain inclusive dry foods to replace Orijen. So far I have identified:

Farmina:
N&D Ancestral Grain Chicken & Pomegranate Senior Mini & Medium
N&D Ancestral Grains Grains Chicken & Pomegranate Senior Medium & Maxi

Fromm:
Adult Gold
Reduced Activity Senior Gold

Nature’s Logic:
Canine Beef Meal Feasts
Canine Chicken Meal Feasts
Canine Lamb Meal Feasts
Canine Turkey Meal Feasts

NutriSource:
Performance
Adult
Lamb Meal & Rice
Beef & Rice

We will begin to titrate him off Orijen onto some of these foods. We will first buy small bags to see how he a) likes them and b) his stool quality and general energy/health before settling on a new rotation of foods.

Do any of you have any experience with these foods or have any other suggestions for me to consider?

• This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by Robert B.

[Dennis M]

Hello. We are on our third Shih Tzu, Dory a female now 9 years old. None of our previous girls made it past 10 years old. We previously fed our dogs Nutro brand dog food. We’ve been feeding Dory Blue Buffalo Life Protection Formula since she was a puppy, and hoping she’ll be with us way past the age of ten. She’s now on Chicken & Brown Rice Recipe Senior for Small Breeds. She has always tolerated Blue Buffalo foods and treats very well. Our concern now is the FDA report on possible dangers of feeding grain-free diets. We realize the Blue Buffalo formula Dory is eating is NOT entirely grain-free, just doesn’t have any corn or wheat included. But the FDA warned of dog foods containing large amounts of legumes such as peas or lentils, other legume seeds, potatoes (including sweet potatoes), pea protein, pea starch, pea fiber, chickpeas, or beans. The ingredients of the Life Protection Formula Dory is now eating has several of these questionably high up in the ingredient list. We’re really at a quandary here. We’ve had great luck feeding Blue Buffalo products for nearly ten years, but concerned we might possibly be damaging our dog’s heart (DCM). Could you provide us a little guidance here? With the FDA concerns, is the Life Protection Formula we’re feeding the safest product line Blue Buffalo provides for this situation, or should we be considering another brand completely? I’m concerned and my wife is more than concerned. Please provide us with some sort of insight and direction to help us decide what may be best for Dory.

[aimee]

haleycookie,

I read through Champion’s response and in my opinion it is very reminiscent of and just as unbiased as the response of the tobacco industry when the first link was made between smoking and cancer. : )

In my opinion, very cleverly written to model after the response of the tobacco industry, “our science found no concerns” but as I read it I find that what they are reporting is very vague and appears to be poorly done.

For example what is “long-term feeding trials with enhanced DCM protocols” In regards to length was it 2 days, 2 weeks, a month, 2 months?? Considering it isn’t yet know how long is may take for dietary DCM to become apparent how are they confident that their trial would have been long enough to find any abnormalities.

What are “enhanced DCM protocols”. The only takeaway I got from their response is that perhaps they measured taurine. Considering most cases have normal taurine levels it seems silly to me to sound an “all clear” based on that test.

Champion likes to point out that dietary DCM appears to be uncommon. The true incidence isn’t known. But I think it is fair to say that not every dog/cat consuming a problematic diet becomes ill. In the Melamine crisis huge numbers of dogs and cats that were exposed didn’t become ill. Same with the association between renal disease and chicken jerky or between grapes/raisins and renal disease. So for illustration sake let’s say that for problem “X ” 1 in a thousand becomes ill. Is testing several dogs relevant? I would say it is not. And Champion hasn’t said what number of dogs participated in their trials. Hmmm

Let’s look at this statement…
“In the recipes Champion makes, we emphasize fresh and raw meat with total animal-derived ingredients ranging from 60 to 85 percent of the finished product. Legumes are not a significant feature in Champion’s recipes, and never have been.”

Take the finished product Acana Free Run Poultry chosen at random GA is 29% protein 17% fat and 12 % moisture and I’ll toss in 3 % ash. 100-29-17-12-3= 39% min plant based nutrient.

Looking at the ingredient list and removing the animal based ingredients , and discarding the ingredients after salt leaves us with whole green peas, whole red lentils, whole pinto beans, , chickpeas, whole green lentils, whole yellow peas, lentil fiber,

Those ingredients, except for the fiber, are in addition to being sources of carbohydrate are also sources of protein From USDA nutrient database an average of 1 part protein for every 3 parts carb. So of that 29 % protein 10 grams may be from the legumes.

Total plant content 39 % + 10% and you get 49% plant based ingredients which I consider a “significant feature”
Total animal based 19% + 17% fat for a total of 36%

In that example I made assumptions as I am using the GA which is just min values therefore the results are not completely accurate but it is very different from the claim of 60-85% animal derived content in the finished product.
Personally, the only thing I can figure that may be 85% animal content finished product would be some of the treats.

Several years ago I asked Champion if they did AAFCO feeding trials. They answered affirmatively. On further inquiry as I recall I asked how long they were for and they replied a few weeks. Hmm more questions and they report they test for palatability, digestibility and stool quality. Most would assume by an AAFCO feeding trial they were talking about a trial for nutritional adequacy but that is not the response I got.

I see this response from Champion as nothing more than a marketing piece . I urge caution whenever looking at any statements made by any food manufacturer in regards to their product.

Perhaps if Champion really wanted to contribute to the knowledge base they should hire veterinary cardiologists and hold free echo screening for DCM for dogs who have eaten their food as their primary source of nutrition. With all the frequent buyer programs it shouldn’t be too hard for retailers to track Champion’s customers.

[Owen J]

Due to its texture, dry food has a positive effect on the condition of the dog’s mouth. Gnawing at the granules, the pet massages the gums and cleans the teeth from plaque. An important advantage of dry food is that it contains a large amount of fiber: once in the intestines of an animal, it stabilizes its performance.
https://herepup.com/abady-dog-food-reviews/

[Owen J]

Proper nutrition of dogs should be as close as possible to the diet of wild animals. Dogs should not be fed boiled dishes such as cereals, or high-calorie baked goods. In order for the intestinal microflora to be maintained in a normal state, and the body was able to perform protective functions, it is necessary to have raw foods in the dog menu. First of all, it should be meat and offal, less often should be given fish and fish products. Sources of vitamins and fiber are vegetables and fruits. After all, a decrease in immunity is a direct path to diseases such as obesity, allergies, cardiovascular disorders, and others.
https://herepup.com/best-dog-food-for-toy-breeds/

[Amber J]

Hi, everyone! I have three senior dogs (two are 13 years old, one is 9 years old), so it’s a bit tough to find reasonably priced senior dog food that works for all of them. Everyone is healthy but it’s hard to find dog food that works well for each dog’s bowels. They don’t have any grain or protein sensitivities that I’m aware of. Two of them have arthritis , but they are otherwise healthy. I use 6-8 cups of dog food a day, so super expensive food is not feasible for our household.

Since our two older dogs have arthritis, I like to see glocosamine, chondroitin, and omega’s in their food. I also like to see supplements that support muscle health, and plenty of fiber/digestive support ingredients. I was feeding them Victor Senior formula, but with Victor’s recent formula changes, all of the dogs are constipated and having a hard time pooping. I switched to Kirkland Senior formula, but their stools are a little too soft for my liking (especially as the person who has to scoop their poop out of the grass).

We have a wonderful local company who sells a senior dog food that seems like it might be okay, and is reasonably priced. I bought a 5-lb bag to test, and even my one picky boy loves it; he’s picking that kibble out and leaving the rest. Does anyone have thoughts on whether this food looks like it would be highly rated by Dogfood Advisor, or whether there are ingredients to avoid? Any other recommendations on reasonably priced senior/mature dog food that might work? I was looking at Fromm but it seems like they have some questionable history with their food.

Here’s the link to the local food: https://www.zamzows.store/products/grandma-zs-chicken-and-vegetable-senior-dog-food-35-lb

Any help would be most appreciated.

• This topic was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by Amber J.

[crazy4cats]

Fromm is also being implicated with causing DCM (both with and without grain) in Dr. Stern’s peer-reviews study and a group of veterinarians that are keeping track of the foods that are being fed when dogs are diagnosed. Zignature and Acana have the most cases so far. Fromm a pretty close third.

Check out: https://www.facebook.com/groups/TaurineDCM/

I feed my two Lab/Golden mix dogs Purina ProPlan Large Breed Weight Management with great results. It has 374 calories per cup, but is fairly low in fat and a little higher in fiber. They have several formulas that might work for you. The ProPlan salmon formula is a little higher in calories, but the Purina One Salmon may be a little lower.

Make sure you measure out the food carefully and cut back on treats. Royal Canin has large breed formulas that are lower in calories as well. Good idea to keep his weight down now. It is a lot easier on the joints and could possibly lead to a longer life if there are no other health conditions. Best wishes!

[Pinky L]

Sorry, I just saw your response. She was on Royal Cainin for years,I switched a couple of months ago to Ultra-chicken. I thought the royal was possibly the cause of her stomach issues. So I did get a week of antibiotics from the doctor, along with some Pro-pectalin. Her stools formed but remained soft,however to accidents in the house. Now 2 days post completing medication and diarrhea is back,non formed and accidents in the house. There is still mucus present in the stool. I feel hopeless at this point. She has never had duck (never) or lamb alone. Possible allergy to the following: chicken,eggs,beef,wheat,bran. Both goods had those ingredients.

I doubt the Purina EN is going to help. Her stools were not liquid on kibble. I am sure the vet wanted her system to rest,thus giving the wet food.

I am thinking about limited ingredients by Koha. It is very expensive. I have spent at least 400 on visits, food,medication since January.

My dog is itchy but vets have said she is just an itchy dog. It could be allergies. That is the reason I had started Royal Cainin (shih Tzu).

Some articles say high fiber is best and others say low fiber foods are best.

[aimee]

Hi joanne l

It seems to me oat groats is just another word for whole grain oats so yes the bran, germ and endosperm are included. From the USDA nutrient database it appears that the total dietary fiber for oat groats is similar to other whole grains.

Human nutritionists seem to agree that whole grains are more healthful than their refined counterparts. so it surprised me that the nutritionist you talked to seems to be advising against them.

In regards to digestibility I found one comparative study done in dogs and oat groats had high digestibility. on par with other grains commonly used in dog foods. Not sure what exactly you mean by “hard to digest”, I’m guess you mean low total digestibility. Perhaps you can post a link to the study that reported that.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/9fdb/1bb6f38f99956f823489c7980024aebfd216.pdf

from the abstract:

“Most dry dog foods are based on cereals, but very little published information and few comparative studies are available on the nutritive value of various cereals in dogs. To determine the apparent nutrient digestibilities and feed values of five different autoclave-processed and ground cereals: oat groats, barley, wheat, corn and rice, a digestibility trial was carried out on twelve adult huskies ac-cording to a 6 × 4 cyclic changeover design. Total tract organic matter (OM), crude carbohydrate and gross energy (GE) digestibilities were higher in rice than in all the other cereals. Apparent crude protein (CP) and acid hydrolyzed fat digestibilities of rice (80% and 94%, respectively) were as good as for oat groats (81% and 93%). However, oat groats had higher OM, CP and GE digestibilities than barley, wheat and corn. The amount of digestible crude protein (118 g kg-1 DM) was higher in oat groats than in the other cereals. Digestible energy contents (MJ kg-1 DM) of oat groats, rice, corn,wheat and barley were 17.1, 16.0, 15.7, 15.6 and 15.5, respectively. The quantity of excreted wet faeces increased and the percentage of dry matter (DM) in faeces decreased when oat groats, barley,wheat or corn were supplemented to the basal diet, in contrast to rice, which had the opposite effecton wet faeces excretion. Oat groats are good substitutes for rice or other cereals in dry dog foods.”

[anonymous]

I have had no problem with “oat groats” in dog food. Oat groats are also listed as whole oats and sometimes even as oatmeal on dog food bags. I believe…
I have never needed the services of a nutritionist.

https://www.holisticselect.com/discover/ingredients
Oatmeal is obtained in the manufacture of rolled oat groats or rolled oats and consists of broken oat groats, oat groat chips and floury portions of the oat groats with only such quantity of finely ground oat hulls as is unavoidable in the usual process of commercial milling. It must not contain more than 4% crude fiber. Oatmeal is an excellent source of highly digestible carbohydrates, protein and nutritional fiber.

[joanne l]

regardless of that, it still contains too much fiber. Some dogs can’t handle it and some can. You can ask your own nutritionist and you will see that this is so. As far as dog food companies go they will use cheaper stuff and oat groats are cheaper than oatmeal. It all comes down to the dollar.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by joanne l.

[joanne l]

Thanks I will call the vet, my dog just got a check up, I just called him and read the ingredients to him. He said too much fiber from bran. I thought so anyway. Some foods he switches fine and some he don’t. I have a German Shepherd they tend to have sensitive stomachs. He is tolerating the Holistic Select, but it is a choir making him eat it. If I put beef broth on it he eats it.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by joanne l.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by joanne l.

[Mike S]

I feed my dog a scoop of Orijen “Regional Red” with a soft boiled egg and a handful of frozen vegetables (corn, peas, green beans, and carrots) for breakfast.

For dinner, he gets another scoop of the same, with some kind of meat like chicken, ground turkey, ground beef, etc. and vegetables. Sometimes I add in cottage cheese, yogurt, or chai seeds.

I feel like he’s getting a great mix of a high quality food with a good kibble, a variety of protiens, and “fresh” (frozen) veggies for vitamins and fiber.

He loves his food and has picture perfect bowl movements. What could I do better?

• This topic was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by Mike S. Reason: spelling / typos

[Ana C]

You are correct that all dog food have something wrong with it. The lastet is that Hill’s Science Diet prescription food iD have elevated Vitamin D. It’s hard to imagine.

I don’t use Wellness Core because of the high fiber % and some other reasons from a study. In human food, we know that we are buying – chicken, beef, fish, green beans, potatoes… because we buy each ingredient separately. In dog food, we buy kibbles and there are at least 20-30 ingredients in the kibbles. Do anybody really know what we are buying? Who is responsible to verify those ingredients and what nutrients are left in the kibbles after the high temperature production?

I guess that’s why people are suggesting to rotate through a few different brand of kibbles so the dogs will not be getting the same toxins day in and day out.

[crazy4cats]

If you think it is the fiber in the Cheerios that is helping, you could try adding a little plain canned pumpkin. But, you want to be careful not to add too many unbalanced things to your dog’s diet. Only 10 to 15% of calories should be unbalanced toppers and treats. You could be feeding a little too much too. That will sometimes cause loose stools.

Also, I believe Orijen is a very rich grain free diet. I’m surprised you would feed it to a dog with a tendency to have pancreatitis. In addition, have you seen the FDA warning about grain free boutique foods?

It’s Not Just Grain-Free: An Update on Diet-Associated Dilated Cardiomyopathy

Best wishes!

[haleycookie]

You’re feeding him tons of sugar and you’re worried about the glyphosphate? Instead of the fruit yogurt and Cheerios use chicken broth, pumpkin purée for fiber, and add some cooked or raw egg, or chocked or raw chicken into his diet as a topper. You can also get freeze dried toppers or wet food. I would cut all that sugar from his diet if you can. Or if you’re insistent on having some type of yogurt try organic kefir or raw goats milk. It’s more appropriate for dogs than sugar filled fruit yogurt.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by haleycookie.

[Patricia A]

Anon Whole Dog Journal’s article regarding DCM sounds pretty science based to me. There are also articles in Whole Dog Journal regarding the negative effects of yearly vaccinations for our pets . Holistic is not voodoo science anyway. Where some vets will push everything the drug salesman brings to their practice, holistic vets questions the need and the worth of giving certain medications when at times the side effects are worse then the problem . Example flea and tick medicines. Some have devastating effects on the health of our pets and the vets don’t find out till it’s too late. Below is full Whole Dog Journals article .
DCM in Dogs: Taurine’s Role in the Canine Diet
What is taurine-deficiency dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM), and how can dog owners prevent it? (Hint: It involves more than just grain-free foods.)

By Linda P. Case – August 15, 20180

TAURINE FOR DOGS: OVERVIEW

Taurine Is Needed For:

1. Healthy heart function
2. As a component of bile acids
3. Retinal function
4. Reproductive health

Dietary Risk Factors for Reduced Taurine Status:

– Low-protein diet (limited taurine precursors)
– Heat-damaged or poor-quality protein sources
– High dietary fiber (i.e., rice bran, beet pulp, cellulose)
– Lamb and rice diets (speculated)
– Plant-based protein sources (peas, lentils, legumes) (speculated)

Possible Risk Factors for Taurine-Deficiency DCM:

BREEDS
American Cocker Spaniel
English Setter
Golden Retriever
Labrador Retriever
Newfoundland
St. Bernard

SIZE
Large-breed dogs
Dogs with slower metabolic rates

DIET
Factors that reduce taurine production
Factors that increase taurine-degrading microbes in the intestine
Factors that reduce bile acid production

In mid-July 2018, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) released an alert to veterinarians and pet owners regarding reports of increased incidence of a heart disease called canine dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM). This disorder is characterized by weakening of the heart muscle, which leads to a decreased ability of the heart to pump, and if untreated, to cardiac failure. The reported cases occurred in breeds that are not considered to be genetically predisposed to this disorder.

Further, a significant number of the dogs were found to have reduced levels of circulating taurine in their blood and have responded positively to taurine supplementation. It is speculated that these cases are related to the consumption of foods that negatively affect taurine status, leading to taurine-deficiency DCM. Foods containing high levels of peas, lentils, other legume seeds, and/or potatoes were identified by the FDA as potential risk factors. These ingredients are found commonly in foods that are formulated and promoted as “grain-free.”

As these things go, there followed a lot of hype and a fair bit of hysteria in response. Let us avoid this type of reaction and instead look at the evidence: What do we currently know about the role of diet and taurine in the development of DCM in dogs – and how is it that “grain-free” foods have been recently targeted as a possible dietary cause?

grain free dog food concerns
Signs of Dilated Cardiomyopathy (DCM) in Dogs

DCM is a disease of the heart, which causes the heart muscles themselves to weaken, which, in turn, reduces the ability of the heart to pump blood through the dog’s body as it should. The heart becomes enlarged and flabby, and fluid begins to accumulate in the dog’s lungs. As this condition progresses, it causes congestive heart failure.

Early signs of DCM may include:

– Lethargy, decreased energy
– A persistent cough
– Difficulty breathing, rapid or excessive breathing, or seeming shortness of breath
– Episodes of collapse
– Anorexia (chronic loss of appetite)

By the time these signs appear, the disease may already be fairly advanced. That’s why it’s important to make an appointment to see your veterinarian right away if your dog displays any of these signs, or more than one of these signs. Often, owners of middle-aged or senior dogs think that their dogs’ symptoms are “just old age,” but a quick diagnosis and treatment can restore an affected dog’s quality of life to nearly normal – and extend the dog’s life far past an untreated dog’s prognosis.

Treatment usually involves medications that help the dog’s heart to contract, slow his rapid pulse, help control the accumulation of fluid in his lungs, and dilate his blood vessels – all actions that will improve the heart’s performance.

What is Taurine? Why Do Dogs Need Taurine?

The nutrient taurine is a unique type of amino acid, called a beta-amino sulfonic acid. It is not incorporated into proteins but rather is found primarily as a free amino acid in body tissues and circulating in the blood. Taurine has many functions, but two that are important for this discussion involve its role in normal heart function and its presence as a component of bile acids, which are needed for fat digestion. Most animals obtain adequate taurine to meet their needs by producing it endogenously (in the body) from two other amino acids, methionine and cysteine.

This means that while most animals require taurine physiologically, most do not have a dietary requirement for taurine. The exception to this rule is the cat. Cats (but not dogs) always require a source of taurine in their food. If they do not have it, one of the diseases that they can develop (and possibly die from) is – you guessed it – DCM.

taurine structure
Taurine-deficiency DCM is well documented in cats. We also know quite a lot about the dietary factors that contribute to this disease in that species. In contrast, dogs (usually) do not require a source of dietary taurine. However, we know that some dogs still develop taurine-deficiency DCM. Why does this happen? The history of DCM in cats can help in untangling what may be occurring in dogs.

Taurine-Deficiency DCM in Cats

Looking back, I cannot avoid a sense of déjà vu. In the early 1980s, veterinarians began reporting increased incidences of DCM in pet cats. By 1987, a role for dietary taurine was suspected. In a seminal study, a veterinary researcher at UC Davis reported low plasma (blood) taurine levels in 21 cats with clinical signs of DCM. 1 When the cats were supplemented with taurine, all 21 recovered from the disease. This discovery led to a series of controlled studies that supported the existence of taurine-deficiency DCM in cats who were fed diets that contained sufficient concentrations of taurine.

What was going on?

It has to do with bile acids. Another role of taurine in the body is that it is necessary for normal bile acid function. Taurine is linked to bile acids in the liver to form bile salts. During digestion, these compounds are secreted into the small intestine, where they function to aid in fat digestion. Animals are very efficient at conserving the taurine that is secreted into the intestine by reabsorbing the bile salts back into the body further down the intestinal tract. This occurs through a process called “enterohepatic reutilization” and prevents a daily loss of taurine in the feces.

Herein lies the problem for cats with DCM: If anything happens during digestion that causes the degradation of the bile salt taurine or that inhibits its reabsorption into the body, more is lost in the feces. If this happens consistently, the cat will experience an increase in his or her daily need for dietary taurine. Simply put – if anything causes the cat to poop out more taurine-bile acid complexes (or their degraded by-products), the cat will be in danger of a taurine deficiency if a higher level is not provided in the diet.

This is exactly what was happening in the cats with taurine-deficiency DCM – and is possibly what we are seeing today in dogs. The difference is that we know what diet factors caused taurine deficiency in cats during the late 1980s. These factors are not yet fully understood for dogs (but we can make a few guesses).

What We Know About Diet and Taurine Status

The studies with cats found that several dietary factors influenced taurine status. These were the level and type of dietary protein, the amount and type of dietary fiber, and the degree of heat that was used during food processing. These factors could affect taurine status in three ways:

1. Bile Acid Binding

Certain fibers and peptides (small protein chains) in the food can bind with bile salts in the small intestine and make them unavailable for reabsorption into the body. This results in an increased daily loss of taurine in the feces and a subsequent increase in daily taurine requirement to replace that loss.

2. Increased Microbial Degradation

Thermal processing of protein (extrusion or canning) can lead to the production of Maillard products – complexes of sugars and amino acids that are poorly digested in the small intestine. The undigested complexes travel to the large intestine and provide an intestinal environment that favors increased numbers of taurine-degrading bacteria. An increase in these bacterial populations reduces the proportion of taurine that is available for reabsorption and reuse by the body.

3. Reduced Taurine Availability

Taurine is found naturally in animal-based proteins but is not found in plant-based protein sources. Therefore, providing diets that include a sufficient level of high-quality animal proteins (that are not heat damaged) should ensure adequate taurine intake.

However, protein that is of low quality or that has been excessively heat-treated will be poorly digested, reducing the availability of taurine and of its precursor amino acids, cysteine and methionine.

In the early 1990s, in response to this new information regarding the interaction of dietary factors and taurine status in cats (and their relationship to DCM in cats), the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) increased the recommendations for dietary taurine in extruded and canned cat foods.

Taurine Deficiency in Dogs

Unlike the cat, dogs who are fed diets containing adequate levels of protein should be capable of synthesizing enough taurine from cysteine and methionine to meet their needs. Therefore, a requirement for dietary taurine has not been generally recognized in dogs.

However, there is evidence – evidence that we have had for at least 15 years – that certain breeds of dogs, and possibly particular lines within breeds, exhibit a high prevalence of taurine-deficiency DCM. Genetically predisposed breeds include the American Cocker Spaniel, Golden Retriever, Labrador Retriever, Saint Bernard, Newfoundland, and English Setter.  Although the exact underlying cause is not known, it appears that some breeds have either a naturally occurring higher requirement for taurine or a metabolic abnormality that affects their taurine synthesis or utilization.

A second factor that affects taurine status in dogs is size. There is evidence that a large adult size and a relatively slow metabolic rate influences the rate of taurine production in the body and may subsequently lead to a dietary taurine requirement. It is theorized that increased body size in dogs is associated with an enhanced risk for developing taurine deficiency and that this risk may be exacerbated by a breed-specific genetic predisposition.

There is additional evidence that large and giant breed dogs have lower rates of taurine production compared with small dogs. Ultimately, studies suggest that certain dogs possess a genetic predisposition to taurine depletion and increased susceptibility to taurine-deficiency DCM and that this susceptibility may be related to the combined factors of breed, size, and metabolic rate.

Taurine in Dog Food Diets

The recent spate of cases and media attention to taurine-deficiency DCM in dogs suggests that this is a very new problem in dogs. However, it is not new. A connection between diet and DCM in dogs was first described in a paper published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association in 2001. What is new is the sudden focus on certain pet food ingredients and the target that appears to have been placed upon the backs of all “grain-free” pet food brands by some bloggers and veterinarians.

Not to put too fine a point on this, but the 12 cases of taurine-deficiency DCM described in the 2001 paper were collected between 1997 and 2001, years before grain-free dog foods had arrived on the pet food scene. Rather than disparage one class or type of dog food (or pet food company), it is more important to look at specific dietary factors that may be involved in DCM in dogs.

Generally speaking, these are expected to be the same as those identified for cats, including low protein levels, poorly processed or heat-damaged proteins (leading to Maillard products), and the inclusion of a high proportion of plant-based protein sources such as peas and legumes.

Over the past 15 years, reduced taurine status in dogs has been associated with feeding lamb meal and rice diets, soybean-based diets, rice bran, beet pulp, and high fiber diets. As with cats, there appear to be multiple dietary (and genetic) factors involved.

For example, it was theorized that the perceived (not proven) association between lamb meal and taurine status was due to low levels of available amino acids present in the lamb meal, or to excessive heat damage of the protein, or to the confounding factor of the inclusion of rice bran in many lamb meal-containing foods. To date, none of these factors have been conclusively proven or disproven. However, the most recent study showed that three types of fiber source – rice bran, cellulose, and beet pulp – all caused reduced plasma taurine levels in dogs when included in a marginally low protein diet, with beet pulp causing the most pronounced decrease.

Complicated? You bet. This is why it is important to avoid making unsupported claims about certain foods and brands. Taurine-deficiency DCM has been around for a while in dogs and continues to need study before making definitive conclusions about one or more specific dietary causes.

Current Considerations of Taurine in Dog Food

We know that any dietary factor that reduces the availability of taurine precursors, binds taurine bile salts in the intestine, or causes an increase in the bacteria populations that degrade taurine, can reduce a dog’s ability to synthesize taurine or will increase taurine degradation and/or loss in the feces. These changes could ultimately compromise a dog’s taurine status (especially if the dog was genetically predisposed) and affect heart health. In extreme cases, as we are seeing, this can lead to taurine-deficiency DCM (see “A Few Things to Know About Taurine” above).

The FDA report identified foods that contain high amounts of peas, lentils, legume seeds, or potatoes to be of potential concern. The FDA also stated that the underlying cause of DCM in the reported cases is not known and that at this time, the diet-DCM relationship is only correlative (not causative). However, this has not stopped various bloggers and even some veterinarians from targeting small pet food companies and/or grain-free brands of food, and implying that these foods, and these foods alone, are causing taurine-deficiency DCM in dogs. Their reasoning is that peas and legumes are present in high amounts in foods that are formulated and marketed as grain-free.

However, the truth is that many companies and brands of food include these ingredients. More importantly, there is no clear evidence showing that a particular dog food type, brand, or even ingredient is solely responsible for taurine-deficiency DCM in dogs.

Rather, it is more reasonable and responsible to speculate that one or more of these ingredients, their interactions, or the effects of ingredient quality, heat treatment, and food processing may play a role. Furthermore, the underlying cause could be the protein, starch, or fiber fractions of these ingredients. As plant-source proteins, peas, lentils, and legumes include varying amounts of starch (both digestible and resistant forms) and dietary fiber. These protein sources are also generally less nutritionally complete and less digestible than are high quality animal source proteins – additional factors that could influence a dog’s ability to both produce and use taurine. Potatoes, in contrast, provide a digestible source of starch in an extruded food but also contain varying levels of resistant starch, which is not digested and behaves much like dietary fiber in the intestinal tract.

Conclusions on Grain-Free Food and DCM

Because any or all of these dietary factors could be risk factors for taurine-deficiency DCM in dogs, and because peas, legumes, and other ingredients identified by the FDA report have not yet been fully studied, the heart of the matter is that no conclusions can yet be made about the underlying dietary cause or causes of taurine-deficiency DCM in dogs.

But given what we do know, we recommend feeding a diet that contains sufficient levels of high-quality, animal-source protein, does not include plant-source proteins as primary protein sources, and does not contain high levels of dietary fiber.

If you are worried about your dog’s taurine status or heart health, whether due to his diet history or physical signs that are of concern, see your veterinarian for a complete physical examination and, if needed, to measure plasma levels of taurine. 

Cited Studies

1. Pion PD, Kittleson MD, Rogers QR, et al. “Myocardial failure in cats associated with low plasma taurine: A reversible cardiomyopathy.” Science 1987; 237:764-768.

2. Earl KE, Smith PM. “The effect of dietary taurine content on the plasma taurine concentration of the cat.” British Journal of Nutrition 1991; 66:227-235.

3. Hickman MA, Morris JG, Rogers QR. “Effect of processing on the fate of dietary taurine in cats.” Journal of Nutrition 1990; 120:995-1000.

4. Hickman HA, Morris JG, Rogers QR. “Intestinal taurine and the enterohepatic circulation of taurocholic acid in the cat.” Advances in Experimental Medicine and Biology 1992; 315:45-54.

5. Freeman LM, Rush JE, Brown DJ, et al. “Relationship between circulating and dietary taurine concentrations in dogs with dilated cardiomyopathy.” Veterinary Therapeutics 2001; 370-378.

6. Backus RC, Ko KS, Fascetti AJ. “Low plasma taurine concentration in Newfoundland dogs is associated with low plasma methionine and cysteine concentrations and low taurine synthesis.” Journal of Nutrition 2006; 136:2525-2533.

7. Ko KS, Backus RC, Berg JR, et al. “Differences in taurine synthesis rate among dogs relate to differences in their maintenance energy requirement.” Journal of Nutrition 2007; 137:1171-1175.

8. Fascetti AJ, Reed JR, Roger QR, et al. “Taurine deficiency in dogs with dilated cardiomyopathy: 12 cases (1997 – 2001).” Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association 2001; 223:1137-1141.

9. Delaney SJ, Kass PH, Rogers QR, Fascetti AJ. “Plasma and whole blood taurine in normal dogs of varying size fed commercially prepared food.” Journal of Animal Physiology and Animal Nutrition 2003; 87:235-244.

10. Torres CL, Backus RC, Fascetti AJ, et al. “Taurine status in normal dogs fed a commercial diet associated with taurine deficiency and dilated cardiomyopathy.” Journal of Animal Physiology and Animal Nutrition 2003; 87:359-372.

11. Ko KS, Fascetti AJ. “Dietary beet pulp decreases taurine status in dogs fed low protein diet.” Journal of Animal Science and Technology 2016; 58:29-39.

Linda P. Case is the owner of AutumnGold Consulting & Dog Training Center in Mahomet, Illinois. Linda is the author of Dog Food Logic, has a new book, Dog Smart, and writes The Science Dog blog.

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LEAVE A REPLY

• This reply was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by Patricia A.

[Bobby dog]

I read a comment on Skeptvet’s blog asking for advice from a Vet or two… I assume no one replied because they had not examined the dog.

Zignature never fell down a “rabbit hole.” Their whole schtick from the beginning was holistic, grain free, exotic meats, and no chicken, potatoes, wheat, soy, or corn that’s what they built their brand on, “Meat first provides the animal protein dogs need to thrive, while our limited ingredient philosophy eliminates allergenic ingredients, such as Chicken, Corn, Wheat Gluten, Soy, and Potatoes. The result is an optimal hypoallergenic, grain free, and low carbohydrate nutrition. We build on this natural foundation by adding vital supplements such as antioxidants, essential fatty acids, and a complete spectrum of vitamins and minerals for holistic pet food that goes beyond nature to become your pet’s signature food for life.” ~ Zignature

Don’t forget Zig’s endorsement of the Glycemic Research Institute…wonder if the creator of that business ever got their weight loss chocolate off the ground…

WHY IS IT IMPORTANT THAT ZIGNATURE® CONTAINS NO POTATOES?
Potatoes have been identified as a high-glycemic carbohydrate for dog food. Zignature® only uses low glycemic carbohydrates such as whole Chickpeas, and garden Peas which also provide valuable soluble and insoluble fiber. For more details, visit the Glycemic Research institute.
https://zignature.com/faq/

[joanne l]

Well put, I also agree about the fiber, especially rice bran!! If my dog eats a food with rice bran his stools are terrible. I steer clear of that ingredient. Also, yes dogs poop 3 times as much with a high fiber and that is not good. I agree totally. Some of these companies have like 6 to 8 % fiber and that is way too much for us. I go with 3 to 4% for maximum. Too much stool out put more lost nutrients. Like you said.

I just read about wolves, how they get their fiber. I couldn’t believe it, but they get their fiber from fur and feathers. This is true I will try to post the articles. I checked a few and all said the same. They said, “wolves eat bones with fur on them and there are two reasons fiber and it protects their stomachs from sharp bones. Very interesting. They also eat grass to purge an upset stomach. It is so interesting how natural provides them with everything they need. So wolves don’t eat fiber foods that dog food contains. We would say yuck to feathers and fur, but it is fiber and protection to the wolf.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by joanne l.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by joanne l.

[Christie B]

On the topic of “the big 4”, I think it’s important to go beyond the parent company and look at the ingredients on the bag to determine what food you should buy. Some product lines within a company are better than others. I don’t think you can rank Dog Chow the same as Pro Plan or Pedigree the same as Nutro.

Ingredients are important. 3 Chicken Formula Dry Food Ingredients Lists:

GROUND WHOLE GRAIN CORN, POULTRY BY-PRODUCT MEAL (SOURCE OF GLUCOSAMINE AND CHONDROITIN SULFATE), CORN GLUTEN MEAL, ANIMAL FAT (SOURCE OF OMEGA 6 FATTY ACIDS [PRESERVED WITH BHA & CITRIC ACID]), MEAT AND BONE MEAL (SOURCE OF CALCIUM), SOYBEAN MEAL, GROUND WHOLE GRAIN WHEAT, BREWERS RICE, NATURAL FLAVOR, CHICKEN BY-PRODUCT MEAL, DRIED PLAIN BEET PULP, SALT, CALCIUM CARBONATE, POTASSIUM CHLORIDE, CHOLINE CHLORIDE, DRIED PEAS, ZINC SULFATE, DL-METHIONINE, MONOCALCIUM PHOSPHATE, VITAMIN E SUPPLEMENT, NIACIN [VITAMIN B3], BIOTIN, DRIED CARROTS, L-TRYPTOPHAN, BHA & CITRIC ACID (A PRESERVATIVE), BLUE 2, YELLOW 5, YELLOW 6, d-CALCIUM PANTOTHENATE [SOURCE OF VITAMIN B5], RIBOFLAVIN SUPPLEMENT [VITAMIN B2], RED 40, PYRIDOXINE HYDROCHLORIDE [VITAMIN B6], COPPER SULFATE, SODIUM SELENITE, POTASSIUM IODIDE, VITAMIN A SUPPLEMENT, THIAMINE MONONITRATE [VITAMIN B1], VITAMIN B12 SUPPLEMENT, VITAMIN D3 SUPPLEMENT, FOLIC ACID

Chicken, brewers rice, poultry by-product meal (source of glucosamine), corn gluten meal, whole grain wheat, whole grain corn, oat meal, medium-chain triglyceride vegetable oil, pea fiber, dried egg product, natural flavor, fish oil, barley, fish meal (source of glucosamine), L-Arginine, mono and dicalcium phosphate, potassium chloride, salt, Vitamin E supplement, potassium citrate, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, manganese sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, calcium pantothenate, Vitamin B-12 supplement, copper sulfate, riboflavin supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, garlic oil, folic acid, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, choline chloride, and sodium selenite

Chicken, Chicken Meal, Pearled Barley, Brown Rice, White Rice, Oatmeal, Beet Pulp, Chicken Fat, Menhaden Fish Meal, Flaxseed, Dried Whole Egg, Cheese, Brewers Dried Yeast, Salt, Calcium Sulfate, Potassium Chloride, Monocalcium Phosphate, DL-Methionine, L-Tryptophan, Taurine, Chicory Root Extract, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Sodium Selenite, Sorbic Acid (Preservative), Vitamins, Minerals, Probiotics.

So the first one is a mess of “poor quality” ingredients and artificial colors. I would give that food a hard pass every day. In fact, I know someone with a Lab who has fed this food for the dog’s entire life. This 10 year old has a lot of joint and mobility issues.

The second one has the dreaded by-product label (at least it’s poultry and not ‘meat’ ) and lots of grains. Fish meal can be found a ways down the list for a boost of glucosamine.

The third has chicken and chicken meal as the first two ingredients, a plus for sure… and then Barley, rice, more rice and oatmeal follow…not ideal.

Are any of these GREAT food choices?

Every single time I go to the pet store, I wander the aisles reading ingredients lists. All I see are legumes and potatoes. Are they causing DCM? There’s no concrete evidence one way or the other yet. Was the my dog doing fine on Chicken and Rice for the first few years of his life before I found this website and gasped at the low rating his food received? Absolutely. Did I switch the grain free after reading through these forums? Sure did. Has he done ok with switch, all these years later? Nope. He’s developed allergies and sensitivities. But is it because of grain free formulas? I haven’t found concrete evidence proving that x and y caused the issues.

It’s a learning process to find what works best for your dog. Some can’t have grains, some can. My vet suggests feeding him boiled chicken and white rice when he’s not feeling well. Is my vet stupid or just telling me what he knows from his 30+ years of experience might help my dog. Has he called grain free food evil? No, but he cautions against it only because the inclusion of legumes and potatoes are ‘relatively’ new to animal nutrition and there isn’t enough research and studies done to prove that they are safe in the long term.

He told me that he’s always given his dogs Pro Plan but have never pushed me to purchase any of the big 4 brands. In fact, he said the best thing I can do is read the ingredients list myself. And to transition food properly. And if my dog has issues after eating 1-2 bags of a food, to look at the current ingredients and find a food that’s different.

[anonymous]

A new formula from FROMM. YAY!
I spoke to a representative at Fromm and was told they have a veterinarian and a person with a PHD in nutrition on staff.
You can call their 1-800 number to ask for yourself.
https://frommfamily.com/products/dog/four-star/dry/highlander-beef-oats-n-barley-recipe

Highlander Beef, Oats, ‘n Barley Recipe Dog · Four-Star · Dry
Info

A Scottish-inspired entrée specially prepared with beef, whole oats, whole barley, and an assortment of fruits and vegetables
Ingredients
Beef, Beef Broth, Lamb Meal, Haddock, Whole Oats, Dried Egg Product, Whole Barley, Oat Groats, Potatoes, Pearled Barley, Pumpkin, Dried Tomato Pomace, Chicken Fat, Beef Liver, Sweet Potatoes, Salmon Oil, Chicken, Cheese, Chicken Liver, Flaxseed, Celery, Carrots, Apples, Broccoli, Potassium Chloride, Vitamins, Chicory Root Extract, Salt, Minerals, Sorbic Acid (Preservative), Cranberries, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Taurine, Blueberries, Sodium Selenite, Probiotics.
Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein 27% MIN
Crude Fat 16% MIN
Crude Fiber 5.5% MAX
Moisture 10% MAX
Caloric Content
3,696kcal/kg
1,680 kcal/lb
388 kcal/cup
Kibble
Size Comparison
Available Sizes
5 lb, 15 lb, 30 lb.
Fromm Four-Star Nutritionals® Highlander Beef, Oats, ‘n Barley™ Recipe Food for Dogs is formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles for all life stages, including growth of large size dogs (70 lb. or more as an adult).

[crazy4cats]

I’m sure the vets on that site cannot make formula recommendations without actually examining your dog or consulting with a vet who has.

I switched my dogs to Purina ProPlan Focus Large Breed Adult Weight Management. Whew! Say that real fast. Lol!

What are you feeding now? I tried to find a kibble that had a similar analysis as what I was feeding. For example, calories, fat, and fiber. You could call or email whichever brand you choose for help choosing a formula.

I’m glad people are finding out about this and switching foods at least until the exact cause is found out. Good luck!

[Susan]

Hi Jaimie,

I was just about to post a post to give her a 21 day course of Metronidazole, Patch a 40lb dog would take low dose -200mg Metronidazole tablets twice a day for 5-7 days then on day 8 the last 2 weeks I’d give him 1 x 200mg Metronidazole tablet with his dinner, my vet writes Patch 5-6 repeat scripts of Metronidazole & when I start to see Patches poos becoming sloppy for a few day & his poos are going yellow, I quickly take script of Metronidazole to chemist & start him on Metronidazole straight away..

I think she might have food sensitivities & this puts her gut flora out of balance making too much bad bacteria & not enough good bacteria…

Unless vet does Endoscope & takes 2 x Biopsies 1 x Stomach & 1 x Small Bowel your really not going to know what’s wrong?? Biopsies give vet answers.
all the other test are a waste of money as biopsies are needed in the end, I noticed with Patch when he’d eat certain dry foods they would cause an in balance in his gut flora…

“Dysbiosis” Leaky Gut typically occurs when the bacteria in gastrointestinal (GI) tract — which includes your stomach and intestines — become unbalanced. Dysbiosis syndrome is a disturbance in the small intestines, leading to damage of the intestinal lining and microvilli.

Patch hasn’t needed his Metronidazole over 1 & 1/2 yr now since he’s been eating “Wellness Core Large Breed” “Wellness Simple Turkey & Potato LID” & “Wellness Complete Health Grain Free Chicken kibble” I don’t know if its the Wellness kibble being more cleaner less toxins & heavy metals that’s helped stopped his sloppy poos/diarrhea, or he’s finally eating a kibble that doesn’t have any allergens that are irritating his stomach & bowel, Wellness uses Probiotics & Prebiotics in their dry kibbles maybe Probiotics have made his gut healthy…he does 2-3 firm poos a day, I walk Patch after he eats, walking helps move on his poo & he isn’t holding his poo, he’s a bugger wont poo in his yard only his morning 7am poo he will do in his yard.

Touch wood Patch hasn’t had Diarrhea since March 2018 when he started eating Wellness Core Large breed adult kibble.

Keep a diary, write down what she is eating, every time you change her food write down new food, does it have grains or grain free, does the kibble have Probiotics, how high is the fiber %, then over the months & years you will start to see a pattern, does she suffer with “Food Sensitivities”?, is the kibble too high in fiber ingredients or probiotics & causing an in balance in her gut??

I just goggle Blue Buffalo (Life Protection Formula, Adult Large Breed, Chicken) gee there’s a lot of ingredients too many & peas?? Pea fiber, Pea protein, Pea starch, Barley,??
Patch can eat peas in a dry kibble but when the pet food has Pea fiber, Pea protein, Pea starch this is when he starts getting his sloppy yellow poos…. too much fiber also when he eats barley his poos start going yellow & sloppy then diarrhea…

The next food you introduce make sure it has limited ingredients

* Wellness Simple Turkey & Potato
https://www.wellnesspetfood.com/natural-dog-food/product-catalog/simple-limited-ingredient-turkey-potato-recipe

* Wellness Core Large Breed Adult
https://www.wellnesspetfood.com/natural-dog-food/product-catalog/core-large-breed-large-breed

* Canidae Pure Wild Boar
https://www.canidae.com/dog-food/products/canidae-grain-free-pure-wild-boar-dry-dog

* Natural Balance –
N/B Potato & Duck – low fiber -3%, no peas,
https://www.chewy.com/natural-balance-lid-limited/dp/104644

*N/B Lamb & Rice large breed – no peas, fiber 4%,
https://www.chewy.com/natural-balance-lid-limited/dp/29461

N/B Sweet Potato & Fish – no peas, fiber 5%
https://www.chewy.com/natural-balance-lid-limited/dp/104659

Stay away from kibbles that have too many ingredients, you’ll never know what ingredients she might be sensitive too?? stay away from Pea fiber, Pea protein, Pea starch, if the kibble has peas that’s OK but not the extra pea (fiber).

[liz R]

I have a all white mixed Havanese, Bichon, Bolognese, and for the first 3 years he didn’t have a single tear stain. Last summer that took a dramatic turn and I had no idea why. I tried everything, I spent a fortune on different high quality foods, grain free, all natural, etc. I tried every topical eye cleanse for stains, washed his face twice a day with shampoo, changed his treats, researched online for hours, begged my vet to figure it out.. nothing worked. After several months, I realized I had changed his food flavor from chicken to Lamb, I was still using the same brand but a different flavor. When I realized that I had not thought about that and maybe I should go back to the original flavor he ate for 3 years when he didn’t have these tear stains, I switched back to the original food in the chicken and barley flavor. Within a month along with Eye Envy teas stain remover solution and powder, his eyes completely cleared up. Let me just say now that I don’t think it was the flavor change for my dog, rather the minor change in ingredients for each flavor. Here’s why, after several months of clear eyes again, I was in need of more dog food. Before and after the eye stain problem, I was using Hills Science Diet Advanced Fitness Chicken and Barley which never caused a tear any staining and cleared up the problem once I went back to it. The store happened to be out of the Advanced Fitness Chicken and Barley so I purchased the same Hills Science Diet brand again but in the Small Toy Dog formula in the Chicken and Barley flavor, how much of a difference could that make, right? … Low and behold the stains started to come back within 2-3 weeks. That’s when I realized, it might not have been the flavor change but perhaps an ingredient that was in one formula and not the other. I compared the ingredients one for one…. and there were 4 ingredients in the Hills Toy breed food formula that were not in the Advanced Fitness formula. Pea Fiber is one of the main ingredients, Powdered Cellulose, L-Lysine and L-Carnitine. I have no idea which of these is the culprit but someone mentioned above in another post that Pea heavy foods can be the cause. That might be the answer because the food my dog had issues with was obviously high in pea fiber, it was the second ingredient on the list. Just to be sure, I will avoid food with all four of those ingredients. Try a different food without Peas first, this may do the trick!

[Susan]

Hi Rose,
I have a Staffy who suffers with IBD, Helicobacter, bad acid reflux, vomiting nausea, have you asked vet to do Endoscope + Biopsies to see if she has Helicobacter or Ulcers??
Vet needs the biopsies results then he’ll have answers or ask vet can he prescribe you the Triple Therapy meds that kills Helicobacter its – Metronidazole, Amoxicillin taken every 12 hours with a meal & 20mg- Omeprazole (Prilosec) taken in morning once a day or I give Patch Pantoprazole-20mg now, Dog takes the Triple Therapy meds for 21 days & when the Metronidazole & Amoxicillin is finished you continue giving the PPI – Omeprazole or Pantoprazole 20mg…
research shows the Helicobacter cant live in the stomach when taking a PPI…

after 1 year Patch on 20mg-Omeprazole Patch started gulping grass, vomiting, feeling sick he got really bad the Omeprazole wasn’t helping him anymore so we did another Endoscope + Biopsies & Patches Wind Pipe & Esophagus was red & inflammed & his back teeth had Gingivitis from the acid coming up his esophagus, then I asked the vet can we change his PPI (Omeprazole) to Pantoprazole what I take for my GORDS when I tried the Omeprazole it didn’t help me either, when we did another Endoscope + Biopsies in January 2018 vet said Patches Lower Esophageal Sphincter (LES) flap isn’t closing properly & the acid is washing back up his esophagus & the Pantoprazole seems to work best for LES….

I wouldn’t be feeding the vet diets they made Patches Acid reflux worse as they are high in, carbs, Omega oils this can make the acid reflux worse + the high carbs & grains are no good for acid reflux…
Look at “Wellness Simple” Turkey & Potato kibble or a Limited ingredient single protein kibble that has potato or sweet potato & not high in carbs-30% fat-13% max, fiber-5% & under, & feed 4-5 smaller meals a day 7am, 9am, 12pm, 5pm & 7.30pm & if you can feed some cooked meals say for Lunch lean white meat -Turkey breast + 1/2 boil sweet potato pieces & freeze the sweet potato pieces, they freeze & thaw really well, then I thaw 1 pieces & mash on a plate & warm 7sec in Micro wave when Patch seems unwell the Sweet Potato soothes the esophagus & stomach….

Go Health food store & buy “Slippery Elm Powder,” add 1/2 a teaspoon to a cup, boil the jug & slowly add boiling water & quickly stir & make a slurry paste thick but thin enough so you can pull up into a 20ml syringe pull up 4ml of the slippery elm paste/slurry& put syringe in side mouth towards dog back teeth & push she will swallow it, give 20mins before meals or after she has vomited up all the acid the slippery Elm will line & protect her esophagus & wind pipe + stomach..
I give Patch those Quick Eze Rapid Chews Forest flavour, I cut 1 in 1/2 & wrap the other 1/2 up for next time & Patch chews & chews the Quick Eze, years ago I was giving him Liqiud Mylanta 4mls in syringe keep the Mylanta in the fridge so it soothes the throat, esophagus & stomach.. I’m wondering when she coughing is she naturally coughing up the acid from wind pipe this is what Patch was doing..
Maybe find a better vet that will help, my vet said they get in at least 4-5 dogs in a week who are suffering from bad acid reflux, vomiting etc, a diet change to home cook would be best or like I do I feed 3 meals a potato or sweet potato kibble & the other 2 meals cooked lean meal with boiled sweet potato & a lean white meat, just till she is stable then start looking into balancing her diet, my vet said they can go 2 months without balancing the diet…

She definitely needs an acid blocker & some Metronidazole, the Metronidazole will kill the helicobacter, its sound like Helicobacter, need a gluten free diet, no sugar carbs as the Helicobacter thrives on sugar..

[Jaimie K]

My dog has commonly had loose stool for a large portion of her life. She is a 3yo female (spayed) yellow Labrador Retriever. To make a long story short – we finally switched to Blue Buffalo (Life Protection Formula, Adult Large Breed, Chicken) because it had more fiber and I thought that might help. She has had solid stools on this food, but has had 2 incidences (two months apart) of severe, bloody diarrhea and vomiting. We went to the vet and all tests came back negative/normal both times (parasites, bacteria, full blood panel, x-rays for foreign body). The 2nd time the vet recommended switching dog food (he does not know what we feed).

Does anyone have suggesstions for a dog food I can look into? I don’t even know where to start.
In the past she has been on Royal Canin (prescription GI puppy formula, regular puppy large breed formula, and regular adult large breed formula), Purina ProPlan (can’t remember the formula) and Nature’s Recipe grain free variety (salmon and sweet potato). The vomiting and diarrhea are her only health concerns.

[Jo R]

No laughter here. Put my dog with constant digestive issues on Purina Pro Plan sensitive stomach salmon and rice and in less than a month, problems gone. One issue was leaking anal glands while asleep. I had tried adding fiber but just got larger, softer poops. Now with no added fiber, anal glands expressing normally, firm, small once a day poop and no gas. The transition needs to be slow as grain free vs grain inclusive changes the gut flora. The most important point is until the grain free / heart problem correlation is discovered and rectified, I can feel safe with my food choice.
What I don’t understand about people that shout that Purina and other grain inclusive foods are bad because they have so called “fillers” is why they think field peas and other mass farmed legumes are so great. They are also sprayed with the same chemicals, are gmo and are stored in the same type of silos. Also agree, Taurinedcm.org is a great source of information.

[anonymous]

PS: I forgot to mention that a dog I occasionally dog sit for has anal gland issues and is doing well on Nutrisource adult formula grain inclusive.

I was shocked but one of their formulas has 14% fiber! https://www.petflow.com/product/nutrisource/nutrisource-weight-management-chicken-and-rice-dry-dog-food
I don’t know if this is a good idea? Run it by your vet.

[anonymous]

My dogs are doing well on Fromm Classic Adult. Most vets(in my experience) approve of Fromm.
This formula has 5.5% fiber https://www.gofromm.com/fromm-family-reduced-activity-senior-gold-food-for-dogs

Some of the grain-free formulas have more fiber but until the FDA finds out if there is a correlation with cardiac problems/DCM I would avoid grain-free.
Unless your vet recommends and feels that the benefit outweighs the risk for your dog.

[anonymous]

Quote “Is there any harm in feeding a 40 lb dog large breed food?”

I’m not sure. You could end up with loose stools when you increase the amount of fiber. What does the vet recommend?

From a previous post of mine per:
Excerpts (out of context) from article below: https://www.vetsecure.com/veterinarymedicalclinic.com/articles/136
Overview:
“Anal sacs are the reservoirs for the secretions of anal glands which are located on either side of a dog’s anus, at approximately four and eight o’clock. These sacs contain liquid secretions from the anal gland, which, in healthy animals, are normally pale yellow-brown to grayish in color. The contents are usually emptied during normal bowel movements, or when a dog is nervous or scared. In most animals, these sacs empty easily. However, some dogs, especially small breed dogs, are not able to empty the sacs properly and become susceptible to anal sac disease”.
Transmission or Cause:
“The cause of anal sac disease is unknown. Smaller dog breeds, such as Chihuahuas and poodles, are most often affected. Excessive anal gland production, soft feces or diarrhea, poor muscle tone, and obesity also contribute to higher risk of developing anal sac disease. Anal sac abscess tends to occur after an impacted anal gland has become so severely swollen and infected that the anal sac forms an abscess and ruptures”.
Prevention:
“Expression of the anal sacs every few weeks or months often will help prevent anal gland fluid from accumulating and becoming thickened again. High fiber diets have been shown to help prevent anal sac disease in at-risk dogs, especially those that are obese”.

[Sabrina H]

My dog needs around 5% fiber or he has anal gland problems. I noticed the large breed formula of many brands has more fiber than the regular formula. Is there any harm in feeding a 40 lb dog large breed food?

[haleycookie]

So he only gets 3 of the small ceasers a day? For a 21 lbs dog they recommned 5 a day. Are you sure there are no extra calories you’re giving him? Is he not very active?
Also the food is 100% balanced food so no worries he’s not getting all he needs. It is a lower quality food however. Lots of unnamed meats and fillers like flour, corn starch, and pea fiber.
You may look into a higher quality canned food. Or try freshpet dog food. It’s pretty good and has fresh veggies in it. I know several small dogs who love the stuff and for a smaller dog it’s not too outrageously priced to feed.
As far as weight I would just continue to cut back and maybe ask the vet? If he’s seriously gaining weight on 300 calories a day I’d be concerned. Most dogs need 30 caps per pound of weight, small dogs should be ok at 40 cats per pound if they’re energetic. So definitely something wrong.

[CockalierMom]

“The problem is that the puppy just wont eat her new food. I tried the 20% new, 80% old trick but she just picks the old food and eats, or even if by mistake she picks the new ones, just throws it out! ”

Listen to your puppy. When a dog does not want to eat a food they are telling you that something in it does not agree with them. Stay on the food that agrees with her and then if you are intent on changing foods, look for something with similar ingredients, fat content, fiber content and protein percentage.