[Bobby dog]

Here’s more info with links and references concerning the misconceptions of the diets implicated in the alert.

From the article It’s Not Just Grain-Free: “In addition, not all pet food manufacturers have the same level of nutritional expertise and quality control, and this variability could introduce potential issues with some products.” ~ Dr. Freeman

Dr. Freeman is referenced in the FDA alerts as well as working with them and other researchers.

It’s Not Just Grain-Free: An Update on Diet-Associated Dilated Cardiomyopathy

[Bobby dog]

Not at all Sanne, I have no room to critique anyone’s written English anyway!!

I just remember you writing about being from another country before.

[joanne l]

I do appreciate everyone’s input, and I am evaluating everyone’s opinion. I did read the article, and also they are mentioning grain free, exotic meats, and boutique brands. I also read that when dogs diets were changed to grain in they improved if the DCM was not too far gone. I will find the article and post it.
I think we all are aware of this, and I started off this thread for opinion’s on Fromm grain in foods. And since everyone has a different opinion it is hard to say if I should use it. Well there are plenty of other good foods out there, so I will keep Fromm on the back burner until brands are mentioned in this matter. As far as peas and legumes are concerned I won’t use them, there is one thing I know for sure, is that peas and legumes prohibited absorption of certain minerals and amino acids. That is a fact. With just that I won’t use grain free period!! So for the people that think peas and legumes are okay in a canine diet long term is wrong. And thank you everyone for the information. I know it can get crazy when we discuss things, but we do have to remember that everyone is just trying to help one another. And maybe someone know more than another and maybe not. But it is all good that we can discuss things. That’s how we learn and keep on top of it. Thank you.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 5 months ago by joanne l.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 5 months ago by joanne l.

[Cathy F]

Regarding Fromm, folks may want to consider the following, which is the text of an email to me dated May 14, 2019:

Thank you for contacting Fromm Family Foods.

Over the past few months , we have updated the Four-Star formulations to support the longevity of our foods. Each recipe is formulated with consistent, quality proteins and ingredients. A meticulous attention to detail and hands-on approach to manufacturing ensure safety and consistency with every bag.

To verify if you received a new formulation bag, the new recipe will have salmon, fish broth and chicken as its first 3 ingredients.

Please let me know if you have any additional questions,

Kind Regards,
Susan

Fromm Customer Service Team
Fromm FAMILY FOODS | Mequon Office
13145 Green Bay Road
Mequon, WI 53097
Phone 800-325-6331

I am sharing this because I fed Fromm for more than 10 years because my picky, sensitive tummy little dog loved it and when I got him a brother he loved it too. 10 days ago I bought a new bag of Surf & Turf. Neither of my dogs wanted to eat it and both got sick, so I contacted Fromm and got the above response. Last night I had to euthanize my 14 year old dog due to complications brought about from getting sick on the Fromm. It’s been the worst experience of my life. Fromm has made no notice of these food changes and my local store told me today they only learned of it when customers started complaining their dogs were getting sick. I was the biggest fan of Fromm and I will never, ever trust them again.

[joanne l]

I am so sorry to hear about your dog. Thank you for sharing that information. I was going to go back to Fromm, but I am not. Others on here don’t like it much either, with the DCM going on. Take Care. Sometimes even when we call companies to find out things, I don’t think they always tell the truth. No company is going to admit their food is no good. That is such a shame, I am truly sorry to hear this. I hope you are okay.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 5 months ago by joanne l.

[anonymous]

@Cathy F
Sorry for your loss.
Often it is not just the food change, it’s possible there may have been something else wrong and the stress of a food change may have exacerbated it.
More time with your pet would have been nice, she must have excellent care all these years to make it to fourteen.

Average Life Span of Top 25 Breeds
The following is a list of the most popular dogs in 2008, according to the AKC and their average life expectancy.
Labrador Retriever (12.5 years)
Yorkshire Terrier (14 years)
German Shepherd Dog (11 years)
Golden Retriever (12 years)
Beagle (13 years)
Boxer (10.5 years)
Dachshund (15.5 years)
Bulldog (7 years)
Poodle (12 years Standard) (15 years Miniature)
Shih Tzu (13 years)
Miniature Schnauzer (14 years)
Chihuahua (13.5)
Pomeranian (15 years)
Rottweiler (10 years)
Pug (13.5 years)
German Shorthaired Pointer (13 years)
Boston Terrier (13 years)
Doberman Pinscher (10 years)
Shetland Sheepdog (13.5 years)
Maltese (14 years)
Cocker Spaniel (12 years)
Great Dane (8.5 years)
Siberian Husky (12 years)
Pembroke Welsh Corgi (13 years)
Cavalier King Charles Spaniel (10 years)

[joanne l]

I just bought Purina pro plan can food, my dog is used to different kinds of can with his dry. However when he ate the pro plan he was sick for 2 days. I called the vet he said put him on bland diet. I did and he is fine. I bought eagle pack can instead and he is fine. Don’t think I can use Pro plan. Even though it is “waava approved” it is not okay if it gets your dog sick. I looked at some reviews about Purina and a lot of them said there dogs got sick. I posted on another page. This is crazy because I can’t trust certain foods b/c of DCM now I don’t think I can fully trust Purina.

[InkedMarie]

Just curious Joanne…..did you transition the Pro Plan canned food slowly into his current food?

It’s WSAVA, by the way.

[joanne l]

Yes I always do, I use natures instinct can, eagle pack and wellness with no trouble. He is a big dog and I only give him 1/4 of a can with his dry. He is quite use to change. Forgot to mention I didn’t like the way it smelled either. IMO just b/c a food is WSAVA approved that doesn’t mean it can’t be spoiled. Don’t you think?

• This reply was modified 5 years, 5 months ago by joanne l.

[Sanne]

Millions of dogs eat and do well on Purina, it is the number one brand in the world after all. That is A LOT of dogs eating the brand. Just because your dog does not do well on a single Purina product that does not suddenly make the brand as a whole untrustworthy…

[Bobby dog]

WSAVA DOES NOT APPROVE OR RECOMMEND FOOD BRANDS OR SPECIFIC RECIPES!!! I am not sure why there is so much difficulty understanding this. The focus of WSAVA RECOMMENDATIONS are on the PET FOOD MANUFACTURER NOT the foods they make. You will not find any recommendations for any brand on their site!! If you are looking for specific brand or recipe recommendations/approvals from WSAVA, it just does not exist!

https://www.wsava.org/wsava/media/arpita-and-emma-editorial/selecting-the-best-food-for-your-pet.pdf

It is an organization that has been around since the early 60’s. Here’s info on their history:

Our History

[joanne l]

I am not looking at WSAVA approved at all. All I know is that I use what my dog does well on. Purina is not the one. I know they don’t recommend brands. I am just saying look on amazon and you will see how many people said there were worms, bugs and moths in the food. I just don’t know. I mentioned this b/c I wanted to try purina dry food, the savor has rubbery pieces in it I don’t care for. I don’t doubt that a lot of dogs do well on it, but when I seen all the bad reviews I was concerned.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 5 months ago by joanne l.

[Sanne]

Okay? When live moths/larvae are in a food, that shows there is a storage problem. You realize live bugs don’t just emerge out of dog food because they were baked into the food? During storage before purchasing, moths are eating their way into the bags and laying eggs. This can occur in any dry food, no brand is immune to it.

Your dog did not do good on it, that’s fine. Move on and feed something else. I don’t see why you are trying to look for other irrelevant problems for a food you don’t want to feed.

[Bobby dog]

“Even though it is “waava approved”…, “…just b/c a food is WSAVA approved…” and “I am not looking at WSAVA approved…”

WSAVA doesn’t “approve” anything. They “recommend” you ask a company the questions listed in the link below. They endorse this as part of a process for finding a pet food company that safely manufactures pet food.

From the link below, “If the manufacturer cannot or will not provide any of this information, owners should be cautious about feeding that brand.” ~ WSAVA

https://www.wsava.org/wsava/media/arpita-and-emma-editorial/selecting-the-best-food-for-your-pet.pdf

[InkedMarie]

“I am not looking at WSAVA approved at all”…….BobbyDog just told you they do NOT approve foods. I wish you’d read what we e posted but you either don’t read it or understand it. They’re *guidelines*.

Yes any food can be spoiled. To be honest, you’re going to find fault with any food that follows WSAVA guidelines and not going to listen to us. Carry on.

[joanne l]

I appreciate your advice and sorry for the misunderstanding. Now I got it. I will find another food.

[anonymous]

If you decide to go back to Fromm, know that Amazon is not an authorized seller.
https://frommfamily.com/retailers/where-to-buy/

“Please note: Amazon, Jet.com, PetCo.com, and eBay are not authorized retailers.
Fromm does not warranty product sold through unauthorized resellers as it could be tampered with, expired, stored improperly, transferred improperly, or counterfeit”.

[joanne l]

Thanks for the heads up Anon. I don’t buy dog food from amazon, I just read reviews. If I buy Fromm I will buy it from them. There website to order it is Gofromm.com it comes right from there place. Maybe that is why so many people are having trouble with Purina, because they are ordering it off of amazon.

[haleycookie]

Proplan packaging is garbage. And their ingredients attract meal moths like flies to poop. That’s probably where the infestation thing comes from.

Joanne, if your dog is doing well on the high meat food you have him on now. Why don’t u just keep him on it? If you are that concerned about dcm, get with your vet for blood work and echocardiogram. The fda specifically said to not make diet changes and to get with your vet and have the necessary testing down before changing diets. I would go that route. I highly doubt anything is wrong with what you’re feeding now which is a meat based diet, which will be high in natural taurine. Grain does not provide dietary taurine for dogs.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 5 months ago by haleycookie.

[joanne l]

Thank you, for your advice. I will keep him on his regular food. My vet is doing a check up at the end of the week. It is a shame b/c I do think Purina has all the right nutrition down to a science, but there quality is poor. People on here think I am bashing Purina for no reason, but if you type in “Purina and worms or bugs” you will see an endless thing on the computer.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 5 months ago by joanne l.

[aimee]

Hi joanne,

I’ve fed Purina for for about 20 years now and have never had insect infestation in any of the bags I’ve purchased over the years.

On the other hand it wouldn’t surprise me that you’ll get many hits if you search “Purina and worms or bugs” because of the large volume is sold. If there is a one in a million problem and 100 million units sold that makes for 100 problems vs a company with smaller distribution of 500,000 units will only experience the one in a million problem once every 2 years.

Insect activity is a post production problem often related to storage both at the distribution center and in the home.

[joanne l]

Anon, I seen the new Fromm recipe the “beef and oats” it looks good but chicken is the 17th ingredient and chicken liver is the 19th ingredient. I know my dog gets upset stomach with regular chicken recipes, but this is far down on the list, what do you think about it? I really want to try it however I wish it did not have chicken in there. And to all that are very helpful with the DCM issues and putting people aware, I don’t want anyone to feel that I don’t believe them or I am hard headed, I know Fromm maybe not good choice right now, but I don’t keep my dog on one brand long.

[anonymous]

Talk to your vet, the one that has examined your dogs.

No one here has anything more to add from what I can tell.

[joanne l]

I called my vet, what a big help his is. He told me the only way is to try it. He don’t think a small amount would hurt but he is not sure. I don’t believe in asking a vet everything, because I am the one who feeds and observes the dog. I just wanted some feed back on peoples dogs that have a sensitivity to chicken can they tolerant it in very small amounts.

[Patricia A]

Joanne do you know if it’s strictly the chicken that doesn’t work well for her or is it possibly another ingredient added to the food that has in common with others you’ve tried that could be the upset cause? Have you ever tried giving JUST boiled chicken for a little bit and see if your dogs have what their or he/she is experiencing.
Vet can’t possibly know your dogs sensitivities as much as their owners. I mean I can ask my vet is a little bit of watermelon good for my dog and he’ll say yes. But I’m the one that knows that my one gets diarrhea from one tiny piece and my other can eat the 4 little pieces I give her and be fine. You know your dog best.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 5 months ago by Patricia A.

[joanne l]

Thank you Patricia, yes I do give my dog chicken boiled. He is fine, however when it is in dog food there is a problem. I know this b/c he is on Holistic Select lamb and when I introduce the chicken one he is fine for a few days then not fine. When he was on Fromm beef I tried their chicken and the same thing happens, he don’t feel well. I used Purina’s lamb and rice and he was fine when I bought their chicken and rice it was not fine. So I know it is the chicken, in dog food not my chicken. So I think it is certain parts of the chicken he can’t have. Or he may need the highest quality of chicken for it to be accepted. I know it is strange but I know this for sure. So I did want to try Fromm’s new beef and oats, b/c it is grain in, they have chicken listed as the 17th ingredient, it can’t be that much. But I guess I won’t know until I try it or just forget it.

[Patricia A]

I was using Fromm grain inclusive Salmon a la veg and they were doing well on that. Mine don’t do well with beef flavors. Maybe at times just add a little fresh boiled chicken to the kibble.

[joanne l]

Well everyone I got Fromm’s new recipe the beef and oats, I gave him just a few kibbles with his regular dry food. He loves it but he had a bad stool. I know it is new but I only gave him a few pieces. There is oat groats in it and whole barley. These grains have the bran still in it. I know bran is a no go for my dog, it is harder to digest than pearled barley and oatmeal. So maybe I will try something else. I wasn’t sure if I should continue with transition with this, if a little bit gave him a bad stool maybe I should forget it. With grains white rice, oatmeal and pearled barley is easier to digest then the “whole grain” dogs digestive track is short and the whole grains take long to digest so my dog seems like he can’t handle it.

[anonymous]

Please consult your vet. It often takes 2 weeks to a month to determine if a food agrees with the dog or not.
If your dog is that sick that it cannot tolerate even a subtle change in diet I would discuss prescription/therapeutic diet with your vet, asap
Seriously…

PS: I have changed brands cold turkey, no transition, nothing. If the dog is healthy all you can expect is loose stools off and on for a week or two. Anything more indicates that there is something wrong with the dog.

[joanne l]

Thanks I will call the vet, my dog just got a check up, I just called him and read the ingredients to him. He said too much fiber from bran. I thought so anyway. Some foods he switches fine and some he don’t. I have a German Shepherd they tend to have sensitive stomachs. He is tolerating the Holistic Select, but it is a choir making him eat it. If I put beef broth on it he eats it.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 5 months ago by joanne l.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 5 months ago by joanne l.

[anonymous]

” SGD ”
What is that?
Your vet is just going to tell you to give the food a little more time.
Really, try to lighten up.

Best of luck.

PS: Let the dog skip a meal or two. Is the dog malnourished? Underweight?

If not, no big deal, let the dog fast for a day or two as long as it is drinking water.

If the dog refuses solid food X 24 hours, go to the vet.

[Sanne]

It seems like every time you post you are trying a new food. I don’t see how you determine whether your dog will do good on any of these foods or not. Like Anon said, it typically takes a few weeks to determine that.

I cannot imagine all your constant switching and adding new things is very helpful if your dog is supposedly so sensitive and does not tolerate much. If you have found a food that he can tolerate leave it at that. If he truly has that many issues with so many brands it’s not worth it to constantly switch and add things just to please his taste. I’m all for feeding a food that my dog likes but sometimes like in your dog’s case that might just not be plausible. Put the food down and nothing else, stop bribing him and he will eat it when he is hungry. He will quickly learn that that food is all he gets. Stick with the food he does good on. You put your dog through a lot of digestive stress because you are so indecisive.

Good luck to you and your dog

[joanne l]

I think you misunderstood me, he is eating fine. He just don’t really enjoy what dry food I have. He eats treats and can food and he will eat his dry food, but I need to put broth on it. No he is not underweight. I am just trying to find a dry food he enjoys. Thank you for your help and thank you for your concern. The Fromm for some reason is not sitting right with him. I know a few kibbles on new food should not cause a problem, but there is something I guess in there that gave him loose stool. This morning I can him ground beef and rice with his regular dry food. It is funny b/c he did eat his regular dry food, but he wanted the Fromm food. He walked over to the bag and was pawing at it. It is a shame b/c I want to give it to him but not after he had a loose stool from it.

[Sanne]

Was it liquid or just a bit soft? It’s not uncommon for sensitive dogs to have a soft stool or two after having something new introduced. If it was just soft you could still try adding a small amount to his regular food to see if he gets used to it. Soft stool is nothing to be too worried about when trying something new. You need to give it about week to let his system get used to it. If the stool is watery/liquid then yes I would discontinue the new food completely and not bother with it

[joanne l]

It is really soft like mushy, hard to pick up on grass. I say I only gave him about 10 kibbles with 1 1/2 cups of his regular dry food. I have not changed foods in a while, he has been eating holistic select dry food since January. I talk about a new foods but haven’t decided yet. This was my first attempt. I have nutrisource in mind if this doesn’t work. I do change wet foods but I know that is not a problem. I been using the same ones for years.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 5 months ago by joanne l.

[joanne l]

There are reasons why I change DRY foods.
When I was using Purina for 1 year everything was fine, then I bought new bag and he was sooo sick badly. I stopped the food put him on bland diet, he got better than introduce Purina again and bad stool again, so I stopped buying Purina.
I was using wellness dog food everything was fine, than he stopped eating it. Than I used Fromm years back and that was good, but he could not put on weight at all with it. And it was the grain free one. So now I am on Holistic Select. I am sorry, if the dog turns down a food I listen to him. If a company has inconsistent kibble and he gets soft stools I stop. I seen a lot of things over the years with dog food.
Meaning inconsistent kibble/ change in color. Different smell. When I see this I won’t continue to feed it and wait for something to happen. Because the last time I feed kibble that was inconsistent in color and size my dog did not do well with it no more. Yes I can continue to feed kibble like this if I want a sick dog. Today they change recipes like they change underwear. They change manufactures and so on. So call me nuts, but I know what I see. Purina was the only one that I feed that has consistent kibble, however when he got sick off of that bag I was afraid to try it again.

[anonymous]

The symptoms have been going on for more than a year despite multiple diet changes and treatment by the regular vet.
I would make an appointment with a veterinary internal medicine specialist. You could ask your vet for a referral.

Otherwise you are just spinning your wheels, doing band aid stuff, trying to find the perfect food.

Talk to your vet as how to proceed.

[Sanne]

Completely agree with Anon. Sounds like your dog would probably benefit from a prescription diet. I have nothing else to say on the matter anymore

[joanne l]

I am sticking with Holistic Select, the dog does fine on it and so what if I have to put chicken broth for him to eat it. I made up my mind not to feed Fromm, they took out oatmeal and replaced it with oat groats. No thanks I will pass on Fromm.

[BellaBea]

You people trashing Fromm foods do know that they make a LOT of great foods WITH grains in them, right? Not all of their foods are grain free. Go to the Fromm website, https://frommfamily.com/products/dog/?animal=dog&query=&lifestage=&breedsize=&recipetype=&attributes=&protein=&productline=&sort=4 scroll down and click on “ATTRIBUTES”, then click on “GRAIN-INCLUSIVE”…it will show you all the foods WITH grain. AT this point and time, they still do not know what is really causing the problem of DMC in our dogs. If you read everything carefully you will see that they are still saying “might and may” cause….they have not said a definite “It Does” cause….. And no, I do not work for Fromm. Just so tired of people trashing the better dog foods out there.

[anonymous]

@ BellaBea

Yes! I agree. Fromm is the best.
We recently started our dogs on Weight Management Gold and are already seeing excellent results. Some of the formulas are a bit high in calories so you have to feed less or keep an eye out for weight gain.
Grain inclusive formulas https://www.gofromm.com/dog?specs=f_Attributes:Grain-Inclusive

[Cathy F]

My problem with Fromm isn’t grain free vs with grain formula. It’s that THEY CHANGED THEIR FORMULAS WITHOUT TELLING CUSTOMERS. I fed Surf and Turf for a decade (die hard fan of Fromm) and all of a sudden my dogs didn’t want the new bag and both were barfing. I contacted Fromm and they told me they reformulated all the 4 star recipes. That info coming after the fact didn’t do a damn thing to help me as my senior dog couldn’t handle the issues the change caused and in 36 hours he was dead. 14 years and 5 months together ended in 36 horrible hours and with $1500 in vet bills. I’m still devastated 2 months later.

I will never use Fromm again. They violated my trust. They ended my beloved Pip’s life prematurely and in an awful way. They made my Ollie sick. No second chances when this is how you do business. I have subsequently learned another dog in my circle also got sick and the owner talked to Fromm and was told this was the first they heard of any issue. That was a month after my dog died and my correspondence with Fromm about what happened. I have the entire email exchange to back up what I was told and what happened to me and my dogs.

So, feed Fromm, but you’ve been warned.

[anonymous]

/forums/topic/fromm-dog-food/page/2/#post-138230

[anonymous]

Average Life Span of Top 25 Breeds
The following is a list of the most popular dogs in 2008, according to the AKC and their average life expectancy.
Labrador Retriever (12.5 years)
Yorkshire Terrier (14 years)
German Shepherd Dog (11 years)
Golden Retriever (12 years)
Beagle (13 years)
Boxer (10.5 years)
Dachshund (15.5 years)
Bulldog (7 years)
Poodle (12 years Standard) (15 years Miniature)
Shih Tzu (13 years)
Miniature Schnauzer (14 years)
Chihuahua (13.5)
Pomeranian (15 years)
Rottweiler (10 years)
Pug (13.5 years)
German Shorthaired Pointer (13 years)
Boston Terrier (13 years)
Doberman Pinscher (10 years)
Shetland Sheepdog (13.5 years)
Maltese (14 years)
Cocker Spaniel (12 years)
Great Dane (8.5 years)
Siberian Husky (12 years)
Pembroke Welsh Corgi (13 years)
Cavalier King Charles Spaniel (10 years)

[Cathy F]

Not helpful anon101. I’m well aware of my dog’s lifespan and medical conditions. Also, please disclose your identity. You seem to be a Fromm affiliate.

[anonymous]

I understand that you are grieving. I am sorry for your loss.

However, isn’t it a possibility that your dog died of natural causes, just speculating.

[Nadia K]

My mom’s malti/poo has eaten Fromm grain free for over 5 years. When the DCM report came out I switched his food to Purina Pro Plan salmon sensitive skin and stomach. I really cringed changing to a Purina food but I must admit he has done really well on it. He likes the taste of it and he always has good poops.
A friend of mine has been feeding Fromm Salmon a la Veg to her dog for some time and he always did well on it. All of a sudden the dog was not feeling well. and she noticed he was getting tear stains. Turns out they changed the formula and added chicken fat. She had no idea that the formula was changed and her dog is allergic to chicken. She has decided to look for a different brand all together.

[joanne l]

I used to love Fromm dog food, but I think their change of formula was to cheapen it. Example oat groats are a lot cheaper than oatmeal. Plus they added chicken to a lot more of their receipts. I do believe people when they say their dogs got sick after eating it. Owners know their dogs best.

[pugmomsandy]

Joanne L, Weruva has some chicken/pea free canned recipes.

[crazy4cats]

Fromm is one of the 16 brands that the FDA implicated in causing Nutritionally Mediated Dilated Cardiomyopathy in dogs. Buyer beware! It was not just their grain free formulas involved. They do not employ or consult with a board-certified animal or veterinarian nutritionist. In addition, they have not done any testing or research in years. Meanwhile adding new untested “exotic” ingredients to their recipes. I will not feed any of their lines of food again!

[Author]

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