[D S]

Our 10 year old setter/border collie has been progressively having worse and worse breath. We were feeding our dogs Rachel Ray which his breath smelled then, but now it smells like death. We switched to Diamond Naturals Lamb and Rice and it smells awful, as in we ask him to leave the room when we’re watching TV. He gets raw meaty bones weekly and table scraps. We have several other dogs all on the same diet who are just fine. His weight is good, though he is more lethargic and cold sensitive than he was when he was younger and he prefer to sleep a lot near the woodstove. He still enjoys walks and loves to ride in the car. Had him checked out by a vet a while back and he was Aok, he is a decent weight and in pretty good shape (still enjoys a 2 to 4 mile walk/light run- though he’s ready for a nap when he gets home and the others (all under 3yrs old) are still raring to go) . His teeth have been cleaned, he was wormed recently, he eats fine and drinks normally, has regular bowel movements and otherwise seems normal. Any suggestions on an affordable, good dog food that will improve his breath?

[anna j]

This is an old thread, do b now I am assuming everything went well. I would feed raw food. Raw offal, meat, meaty bones. You can cheaply do so.
and also if you buy meat for yourself, buy a little bit of of her and her puppies.

I have mastiff and bully type dogs. They eat raw a a time. No problems. Our vet still plays a part, but but a consultant. Our dogs do not get sick,much.

[Jessica K]

My dog (1year old 12 pound Dachshund mix) has had a number of allergic reactions to different brands of kibble including Blue Buffalo and Merrick so my last vet asked if I wanted to try to switch him to a raw diet. After some research, we decided to switch him over and follow the raw meaty bones diet guidelines. Since then, he has been primarily fed either chicken legs or wings with eggs, organ meat and some vegetables to supplement. I have recently started to add goat milk and/or kefir when I can.

I was planning on switching his primary source of bone/protein around to fish or beef but haven’t gotten a chance to do so.

He was due for his vaccines and because I moved, we took him to a new vet. Once she found out that he was on a raw diet of mostly chicken wings and legs, she flipped out and told me I was abusing my dog. I asked her what I was doing wrong or if she had recommendations on a different raw feeding style but she ignored me and told me that if I didn’t switch him back to kibble, that she would take him away. I tried to explain his allergic reactions and even politely asked about what to do if he was on a kibble diet and had an allergic reaction but she gave me no answer.

Am I genuinely doing something wrong? Is this somewhat of a common reaction and has anyone dealt with a similar situation before?

Notes:
His allergic reaction mostly consists of a skin reaction but he does have the occasional ear infection. His skin reaction starts off with him turning bright pink/red, bumps and then blisters.
The original vet recommended the chicken wings and legs because of his size. I did manage to find him turkey necks once (rather hard to find in my area) but had to cut it into smaller chunks.

[anonymously]

The question the op posted was regarding loose stools, the poster also implied that the dog was under the care of a veterinarian and the dog’s condition had not improved to his satisfaction. It was not clear if medical issues were ruled out or what might be causing the loose stools in the first place, other than dog food.

Regarding raw food:
ER visit #1 and #2 GI distress and blockage, due to gnawed/finely ground up bone turning into cement-like substance in stomach and colon. Dog was in pain and distress and unable to have a bowel movement without crying. Dog had to be followed for a few days to make sure the cement moved otherwise surgery would have been necessary.
Vet visit for broken tooth (not a clean break) causing pain after gnawing on a “raw meaty bone” Extraction needed.
Other problems associated with raw food with dogs in my care: nausea, vomiting, diarrhea.
In general, GI disturbance.
So, it’s not something I’ll try again. I have other concerns also, I prefer food to be cooked.
Especially meat, chicken, egg, fish, for obvious reasons.
Since brushing their teeth daily very rarely have they needed professional dental cleanings, so I don’t believe that bones are necessary. I find other things they can chew on, like playing ball to exercise the jaw.

[Dennis L]

My puppy has been on a raw diet since we got him. We feed a combination of food from My pet carnivore including tripe, whole ground rabbit, whole ground chicken, pork, and beef. I give him raw meaty bones everyday. He was doing great on the bones and even was eating turkey necks, but last week he started chewing all of the meat off the bone and leaving the rest. I tried giving him a chicken thigh and then I went down to chicken wings. He eats the meat off of each bone and leave the rest. He used to crunch the bones up like they were nothing, but he has no interest now.
I know he needs more than the 10 percent bone that is in his ground food so I have been adding bone meal to his food to supplement. I am really not comfortable with this as I don’t want to give him too much calcium. I am wondering if teething is an issue and if anyone has had this problem and if their pups started back up on the bones. Thanks

[Shauna A]

How long is it safe to keep a raw meaty bone around for my dog to chew on? Can I keep it out or does it need to be frozen or refrigerated in between chew sessions? It’s a beef knuckle that he’s cleaned off, for the most part, but there are still small remnants of ligaments/tendons. Any input is appreciated. Thanks!

[alexis w]

to the person who said my foods are not balanced, that is why i recommend a supplement with each recipe, and i know dogs need calcium, i use ground egg shells like stated previously. the raw meaty bones would be an add on.

[anonymously]

In response to the above post, are you a veterinarian? If not, you may want to be more careful about how you express your opinions. You may not know as much as you think you do.
It is one thing to offer an opinion, but opinion is not fact.

Raw meaty bones caused me at least 3 visits to the emergency vet with more than one dog.

“First do no harm”

[alexis w]

I am going to start supplementing with pre frozen(to kill the germs) raw meaty bones. you never want to give dogs cooked bones. if you prefer you can used crushed eggshell to give the calcium needed

[Rox B]

Julia J you do not need a nutritionist to feed your GSD. Please join my Facebook group Learning Raw With Roxane. It’s free and you will learn how to properly feed raw. I have an 8.5 year old GSD and members with GSD’s including one with a GSD puppy who is growing fine feeding raw. We have MANY members with large breed puppies. I teach Prey Model Raw Diet 80/10/5/5. Come learn HOW to feed raw and what raw meaty bones are safe. You can learn about weight bearing bones, their risks and so much more helpful information. Here is the link to my closed group. Request to join….it’s free. https://www.facebook.com/groups/LearningRawWithRoxane/

[anonymously]

Some information here you may find helpful http://skeptvet.com/Blog/category/nutrition/

I have to speak up, as I ended up at the emergency vet with more than 1 dog, 2-3 times for issues related to “raw meaty bones” . GI blockages….even the finely ground up bone can turn into cement in their gut.

[Julia J]

Hello, I’m new to feeding raw. I have a 12 week old German Shepherd. 27 lbs. Recently just switched from kibble to ground raw (60%-80% meat, 30% veg/organ, 10% bone). Should probably start raw meaty bones to increase his calcium & phosphorus intake. I’m quite nervous about it – worried about choking if he doesn’t chew it up thoroughly. Worried that it may get lodged in his intestines etc.. Can anyone suggest a few safest raw meaty bones he can try? I’m considering chicken back, chicken feet/wings, lamb ribs. Should my puppy swallow both the meat & bone? Any advice is much appreciated.

[anonymously]

Sounds like he might have a GI upset/blockage, my 9 pound poodle mix had to go to the emergency vet x2 for issues related to “raw meaty bones”. The bone, even when it is ground up into fine particles can turn into cement in the stomach and colon. It is painful and can be quite serious.
I would take him to the vet (today), he’ll probably need an x-ray and then they will discuss treatment. Raw food has risks, especially for delicate small breeds (in my experience)
http://skeptvet.com/Blog/category/nutrition/

/forums/topic/rectal-issues/

[anonymously]

Idiopathic seizures……sometimes there is no explanation. Keep the diet simple, avoid chemicals and junk. See what the vet recommends. I’d go with a quality kibble as a base. I’d skip the bones, been to the emergency place 2-3 times over the years, twice for GI blockage and another time for a broken tooth. All caused by feeding “raw meaty bones”.

Don’t free feed if you want him to lose weight, feed measured amounts twice a day, pick up the food after 10 minutes if he doesn’t eat and store in the fridg, offer at the next mealtime.
Have fresh water available, add a splash to his food if he’s not a drinker.
Walk him for an hour a day, it may help decrease the frequency of seizures and aid with weight loss.
Don’t be afraid of the medication, I had a peke who lived a long time on a low dose of phenobarbital. They can still have an occasional breakthrough seizure, but it is usually mild.
http://skeptvet.com/Blog/category/nutrition/

[Susan]

Hi Greg, my boy was diagnosed with IBD thru biopsies 2013, I contacted a Naturopath thru email first to see if she knew anything about IBD & she did, so I booked a consultation over phone she rings you or does Skype for overseas….
Here’s her link her “Maintenance Diet” http://www.naturalanimalsolutions.com.au/natural-diet.html
I told her everything about Patches health, she said it sounds like Patches Pancreas isn’t doing its job & working properly & we need to fix Patches gut……
Jacqueline put Patch on the home made raw “Maintenance Diet” she would not let me buy any of those premade raw diets she said, she has seen them being made & they are not good for dogs especially if they have any health problems especially IBD…..
I had to pick 2 proteins, I picked Kangaroo mince & Chicken breast, 2-4 veggies, I picked, broccoli, celery, carrot & 1-2 fruits I pick apple, all veggies & fruit must be washed & peeled then cut & put thru a blender, for breakfast I feed 1 cup protein kangaroo & add 1-2 spoons of the blended veggie/fruit mix also had to add Digestive Enzymes 1/2 capsule & live probiotic 1/2 capsule per meal…..she told me freeze the veggie/fruit mix in 2 spoon sections & freeze the meats separate in 1 cup sections, it was so easy to do, then when Patch was doing firm stools & was OK which was the next day, I was surprised he did the firmest poo I’ve ever seen, Jacqueline promised me he would, she said the Digestive enzymes & probiotic will firm stools & they did, then I could start to add the DigestaVite Plus Powder 1/4 teaspoon then increase after 1 week.
You need to add supplements & ingredients slowely 1 at a time over 5 days cause if something goes wrong you will not know what is causing the problem……. Less is best in the beginning 🙂 also she told me No bone, some IBD dogs don’t do well eating bone……
I now cook this diet minus any meaty bones & add potato, zucchini….

Sounds like your dog Pancreas isn’t working properly either, not digesting her food properly, I would start with cooking first & see how she does, its fresh & you know what you have cooked, I freeze 2 weeks worth of meals….
have you heard of “Balance It” http://secure.balanceit.com/….Balance It gives you recipes to suit your dogs health problems takes about 20 sec then gives you all recipes, shows you how many calories, how much fat, protein fiber is in that meal & you can contact a their Vet Nutritionist….
Have you tried a digestive enzyme?? instead of increasing the steroid…..also have you tried Metronidazole (flagyl) for 2 weeks, the Metronidazole often fixes things up & kills the bad bacteria these dogs have problems with, Patch has a few scripts of the Metronidazole in the cupboard & I put him on it for 2 weeks as soon as I start to see his poos going yellow & sloppy & smelling bad….Good Luck

[aimee]

Hi Kelly,

You can find veterinary nutritionists through their website acvn dot org. But most won’t do raw diets and even fewer a raw diet for a puppy. If you want to go that route I’d suggest trying Dr Bartges

The reason most won’t, I think, is two fold.. one the pathogen exposure and two the availability of nutrients contained in raw meaty bones isn’t quantified. Providing calcium at just the right range for a large breed pup becomes an unknown if calcium absorption from these sources isn’t known.

Some time ago I read an article on a pup that had severe calcium depletion on a home made raw diet yet there was plenty of bone in the gut.. In other words the calcium from the bone that was being fed wasn’t being absorbed.

So I wonder if a vet nutritionist who would formulate for a pup would skip the bone and use a Ca source whose availability is known.

The commercial raw foods you mention may be all life stage formula’s meaning they meet the criteria for puppies and then by default for adults.

The only company I know of that made a raw that went through feeding trials and is HPP and consults with a vet nutritionist is Natures Variety. The current formula haven’t been through feeding trials but carry a feeding trial statement by way of AAFCO’s family rule.

Like pitlove, I too have seen horrible results from a raw food diet on the growth of a puppy. The owner was an experienced raw food feeder for her past adult dogs and this was the first pup she raised on raw. The dog was anemic, small for its breed and had to have orthopedic surgery at a young age. So sad….After having seen this first hand it is why I’m uneasy with your plan.

[El]

Hi Kelly P

I would recommend these 2 books as part of your research into feeding a properly balanced raw diet to your pup.

“Ok I have not yet gotten my puppy I have about 4 weeks still. She will grow up to be around 100lbs, so I’ll probably feed her about 2lbs a day.”

Here are the feeding guidelines from Primal, I think they are pretty accurate. Puppies need more than 2% of their body weight daily.

Feeding Percentages
1.5% Weight Loss
2.0% Non-Active
2.5% Maintain Weight **
3.0% Slight Weight Gain
3.5% Significant Weight Gain
4.0% Kittens/Puppies (8 weeks-1 year)
4.5-8.0% Kittens/Puppies (4-8 weeks)
4.0-8.0% Pregnant/Lactating

“We will be training too with treats so I need to be sure they level each other out. I have done a lot of research as I’ve been preparing for the past 1-2 years. What I found so far is the following.
Feeding anti-oxidants or some sort of cooked veggies is a good idea.”

I would puree the veggies. Cauliflower, broccoli, spinach in moderation, green beans, peas in moderation…

“Feeding organic eggs, shell and all, is good at least once a week. Egg shells provide a lot of calcium.”

I would suggest free-range organic eggs. I know that people feed finely ground egg shells as a calcium source, but I don’t know about feeding whole egg shells. I would do a little more research specifically on the calcium requirements of large breed puppies if I were you. She will be getting calcium from bones, egg shells, spinach and ?

Feeding a whole fish once a week is good because of the oil it provides, be sure not to feed tuna because of the high mercury levels. Cooked Tripe is great and so is a some coconut oil. I figure I can saute the veggies in coconut oil.

In general, I would feed small fish, they usually have softer bones and less toxic buildup. I would not cook the tripe. One of the benefits of feeding “Raw Green Tripe” are the enzymes, and any processing or cooking will destroy those enzymes.

“As far as percentages I have read a few different things but my research has come up with the below.
Version 1
75% Muscle/skin (i.e chicken breast)
10% Edible Bone
5% Liver
5% Non liver organs
5% Anti-oxidants/Veggies
Version 2
50% Meaty Bones
35% Muscle/Skin (i.e chicken breast)
5% Liver
5% Non liver organs
5% Anti-oxidants/Veggies”

I feed my dogs a homemade lightly cooked diet. Version one looks pretty good. Since I lightly cook my guys food I would replace the 10% edible bone with 5% more pureed veggies and 5% supplements to balance out the diet.

“My main questions are about bones.”

This is good because I see bones as the riskiest part of your diet plan and I would carefully consider both sides of the argument so that you can make the most informed choice possible. Also, regarding Wolves and bones, research has shown that larger pieces of bones are excreted from wolves wrapped in the fur of the animal they ate, maybe as a way of protecting their insides from the bone fragments.

Good Luck with the new addition to your family 😉

[Kelly P]

Ok I have not yet gotten my puppy I have about 4 weeks still. She will grow up to be around 100lbs, so I’ll probably feed her about 2lbs a day. We will be training too with treats so I need to be sure they level each other out. I have done a lot of research as I’ve been preparing for the past 1-2 years. What I found so far is the following.

Feeding anti-oxidants or some sort of cooked veggies is a good idea. Feeding organic eggs, shell and all, is good at least once a week. Egg shells provide a lot of calcium. Feeding a whole fish once a week is good because of the oil it provides, be sure not to feed tuna because of the high mercury levels. Cooked Tripe is great and so is a some coconut oil. I figure I can saute the veggies in coconut oil.

As far as percentages I have read a few different things but my research has come up with the below.

Version 1
75% Muscle/skin (i.e chicken breast)
10% Edible Bone
5% Liver
5% Non liver organs
5% Anti-oxidants/Veggies

Version 2
50% Meaty Bones
35% Muscle/Skin (i.e chicken breast)
5% Liver
5% Non liver organs
5% Anti-oxidants/Veggies

My main questions are about bones. I know you can’t just let the dog eat bones they have to get used to them so they actually chew them, else I’ll have to grind them up. But I’d prefer not to. Wolves don’t grind their bones up prior to eating.

I also am not entirely sure of what are good meaty bones, I know almost all bones in small animals are fine. Neck/tail bones of larger animals for the most part are fine. To stay away from basically legs as they’re denser. And an Edible bone should be something that is easily consumable.

What would be the best way to get my puppy acclimated to bones properly? Hand feeding is one I’ve found, but will I be able to trust my dog as she gets older and bigger? I don’t plan to leave her food out or anything but let’s say I put the food down and something comes that needs my attention for a bit. I’d like to think she’d be fine. I’m paranoid and want to do this right.

Also could I possibly be missing something at all?

Resources used
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijP_CVZUa5g&list=LLcG0oHG3mpprbGFFglrzVyg&index=2
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/raw-feeding-primer/
http://rawfeddogs.org/rawguide.html
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/04/01/raw-food-diet-part-1.aspx
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/04/01/raw-food-diet-part-2.aspx
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/04/01/raw-food-diet-part-3.aspx
http://www.dogster.com/forums/Raw_Food_Diet/thread/697247/1
And various other user forums and sites.

• This topic was modified 8 years, 3 months ago by Kelly P.

[Danni A]

I recently read something about high protein diets being inappropriate for Irish Wolfhound pups. Both my pups, now 8 months old, are on high protein diets. I stumbled on this site whilst researching, as I was concerned that we had unintentionally harmed our dogs by feeding a high protein diet. However, after doing some extra research and considering the size and condition of our dogs, I think the higher protein diet has been ideal for them. They have grown quickly compared to smaller breeds, yes, but they are a giant breed. When comparing their size to growth charts for the breed, they are much smaller and so would appear to be growing slower than what is considered the norm by breeders. At the moment, we feed our male pup a bit more than our bitch because he is taller and leaner than her. We feed 500-600 grams kibble in the mornings (Ivory Coat grain free for pups, alternated with Black Hawk for pups – does contain some grain) and we feed 500-600 grams Raw Puppy 76 or sometimes BARF in the evenings. They receive meaty bones like lamb shanks once a week as a treat, and other natural treats during training. The dogs are happy, energetic (when not sleeping), have good coat condition with no itches, rashes or hair loss, no stomach upsets and regular healthy stools. So I’m inclined to think that a higher protein diet has been very good for them. I hope someone finds this post useful or has any feedback to provide.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 3 months ago by Danni A. Reason: spelling error and clarity

[Alex p]

since meat is high in phosphorus and lower in calcium, too much meat is not good for dogs over long periods of time”. (Many people still confuse the disastrous all meat diets with meat-based diets; one is not good the other is ideal.) Grain-based diets for dogs, and even more so for cats, do not make nutritional sense.

You can offer some natural foods to provide some variety. Natural foods include fresh human-grade raw meat (e.g. raw lamb), raw meaty bones and vegetables

[Pitlove]

Hi- A lot of customers at the small pet store I work at use the Primal Raw Meaty Bones (they are beef marrow bones) and we have yet to have an issue. Perhaps trying the beef would be better. Them splintering like that is definitely concerning and I would not try to feed that bone again.

As for her arthritis, make sure she has comfortable things to lay on and I would definitely suggest a supplement like this one: http://www.chewy.com/dog/naturvet-arthrisoothe-gold-hip-joint/dp/48764
Also is she still getting excersized? Its kinda like how they tell humans that they need to continue to excersize to keep their joints from stiffening when they get older. I think continueing regular excersize for older dogs is a good idea to keep the joints mobile. Obviously only do what she can handle, but it should help. Was she a rescue? She seems young even for a pit to be having arthritis.

[Pitlove]

Brushing your dogs teeth is the best way to clean the teeth. Others on here use Raw Meaty Bones. I’ve tried them, but my dog gets confused on how to eat them. He has an Elk Antler he chews on regularly and because of the way he chews it, its similar to a Raw Meaty Bone and I feel that the antler, along with his regular teeth brushings has helped keep his teeth in good condition.

[Jeffrey Andrew A]

I have 2 Shih tzuz, the female one is a fast eater and the male one is slow eater. I heard that for small dogs, Chicken legs/thigh are bad them because of the big bones on them. The female eat the meat first then the naked bone on the chicken.

Other than Chicken legs/thigh, what are good RMB for shih tzus/small dogs?

[Pitlove]

Jan- Wow! So sorry for what your girl went through, but very glad you found out what it was. Not sure if you want to continue feeding the raw bones or not, but I was curious as to how often they were given? Raw meaty bones really should be recreational feeding only, meaning not every day and more infrequently than not. We carry Primal’s raw meaty bones at work and it even says that right on the packaging.

Perhaps she was getting them too frequently and it wasn’t allowing for enough digestion time? Or perhaps she really just can’t break them down. Either way, best of luck with whatever your choice is for her!

[Joy M]

Hello to all and Thank you in advance for all your help
I have been feeding my dog Lilly a 5 1/2 year old rescue pit a lightly cooked meal with dry for going on 2 years now with no problems but for nearly a year have been trying and trying to go totally raw But she will not touch it I have done my research and tried to wait it out She now just stopped eating raw meaty bones now she just buries it under the sofa or wherever but she never goes back to get them before I went back to raw she loved them So my question is am i hurting her by lightly cooking all the food She is very healthy now by the way When we first got her she was very sickly Horrible rashes ,Diarrhea ,bad joint issues Etc Most of that is gone now
I just am so confused She has had all her vaccinations before i got her and since then I was forced to get Rabies and talked into Lyme because we go camping in the deep woods But she has had none in two years

[Jonathan S]

Are you giving her raw meaty bones? That would add some calories. You could go with turkey necks, lamb shanks, chicken wings, duck feet, etc.

[jakes mom]

C4C, I tried the cat food from know better a few months ago when I was trying to transition the brats to raw. Easy to do, good fast delivery. Of course the cats didn’t eat it but Jake enjoyed it very much, lol. Let me know if you try it, I might add it to Jake’s rotation. Right now he’s eating a bit of everything, NV kibble and frozen raw, a few other quality kibble brands, raw meaty bones. And as you know, he’ll be finishing up the Darwin’s cat food!

[jakes mom]

My understanding is that a dog’s GI tract is shorter and stomach acid is more acidic than human’s, this makes it safer for them to eat raw stuff without getting sick. My dog eats raw and loves raw meaty bones, has never been sick. Nor have I gotten sick by feeding it. Just wash hands and keep kitchen clean. Also, don’t forget that the government (FDA) has their nose into regulating pet food. Companies may have to issue “CYA” recalls even tho there’s really no danger to the dog.
That said, nothing’s right for all dogs and people. If you aren’t comfortable with the raw feeding, there are plenty of other options for you like cooking a homemade diet for your dog. Or just feeding a good quality canned food or kibble, altho those are prone to recalls, too. Nothing is 100% safe in life. You just do the best you can.

[Alasdair D]

Hi All,

First post, so please be a bit gentle….

As an introduction, I live in the UK and have 2 Deerhounds. One is 10 years old and one is 10 months old. The pup has been fed raw since birth and I converted the old lady to raw when we got the pup 6 months ago. The old lady had been fed raw many years ago, but I got lazy and moved her onto Royal Canin some years ago at a vet’s recommendation. Over time, she developed some skin problems, but the move to raw has cleared that up completely and she now also has more energy.

Anyway….what I am looking for is some advice on the diet I currently feed them. I will describe the “go to” menu, but be aware that I do chop and change depending on what is available and also feed lamb rib bones and other raw meaty bones often.

I normally feed the dogs twice daily. Breakfast is a raw mince and vegetables (see below) meal and dinner is normally raw chicken wings or quarters.

The mince I use is made from ground chicken carcasses so has about 15% bone, and also has about 10% added offal. It is all human grade chicken meat with no additives or preservative whatsoever – just pure ground up chicken parts.

For the vegetables, about every month or so I buy a load of leafy greens, carrots, sweet potatoes (the orange ones) and broccoli, then grind it up really fine in my food processor and freeze to use later.

I use about 1/3rd veggies and 2/3 mince for the breakfast meal – and I also add a supplement that I make up from equal weights of powdered kelp, brewers yeast and ground flaxseed. Each dog gets a desert spoonful of this powder with their breakfast.

That’s the typical meal plan. Both dogs love it, the pup appears to be in phenomenal health and the old girl is much better than she used to be.

So, I am really looking for comments on this….. I think it covers most of the bases in terms of protein, fat, carbs, vitamins and minerals, but I want to know if there is something I am missing or anything I can or should add to improve their diet.

Let me know what you think!

Many thanks,

Alasdair

[Cheryl F]

Hi Sharon,

You said for the 2nd day your Newf pup has thrown up. Is it immediately after he finishes eating, or some time later (say 1 hour post feeding). If it’s immediately – thats regurgitation and oftentimes dogs on RAW will do that and then re-eat the food. Nothing to be worried about unless its an every day occurrence for a ‘period’ of time. Hardest part is to keep the other dogs from “clean up on aisle 12” participation! You also mentioned a couple other things – but didn’t fully qualify them. He came back positive for 3 bacterias….what bacterias. What is the infection he was diagnosed with and what is he being treated with? Not that that has any bearing on the BARF diet, but I’m curious. I would advise you to call your local butchers/food stores and ask them what they have in the back that they haven’t put out yet, ground up etc…. If you get on their good side and ask them for help in the processing of your meat requests, they may do the chopping for you. i dont recommend feeding your dogs ground up food all the time. The chewing action is what they need to clean teeth, expend energy (in the case of your newf pup – chewing a good big knuckle bone for an hour or so will tire him out and give you a break). Plus it’s good for the dogs to learn how to ‘hold’ the bones properly in their paws so they can get at the good stuff. It’s quite amazing to watch them learn what they need to do. I wont forget the day that my one puppy learned how to use his paws as tools and then his raw meaty bone handling skills went over the top for him. 🙂 You can feed large dogs full chicken necks without worrying about having to cut them up. I only cut up now because I have ‘smaller’ dogs than i used to. NEVER feed a turkey neck without it being cut up. I have had to fish my hand into my Saints mouths in the past to retrieve a full neck that was getting stuck because i didn’t cut it up….so word of caution on that.

Sounds like you have done a ton of research on this topic and while the whole process of feeding raw is foreign to some and maybe a little scarey or cost prohibitive up front – it’s far better for them, costs less $ in the long run due to smaller portions, less vet bills, less $ for meds due to allergies, etc…

Id love to hear back from you on what the specific issues are with your newf pup by the way. Have a great day.

Cheryl

[Cheryl F]

Hi Sharon,

I replied to you on the other thread about most reputable raw food supplier. One other thing to consider. Dont get yourself too worked up about mixing in kale, garlic, this that or the other. Easiest thing for you to do would be to source a good supplier for Salmon Oil, multivitamins and DE (diatomaceous earth). The raw food suppliers will have the ground mixes available for purchase. In my house we buy the grounds (such as ground up chicken with organ meat with vegetables mixed in, beef with organ mix, trachea/gullet mix as well as green tripe. the green tripe is a very excellent source for dogs as it can help them with kidney problems. When dogs are on a raw diet their BUN/Creatinine numbers will different than if they they were on a kibble diet. I dealt with a saint that had symptoms of renal failure when I had her on kibble – and when i had her on raw the green tripe helped to level out those numbers. We feed whole chicken necks, chicken paws, cut up pieces of chicken (back, thigh/leg, breast and gibblets) as well as turkey necks, duck necks, ground mixes and the three x/ week raw meaty bones such as marrow bones, knuckle bones, etc…

We give our dogs a good multivitamin that is tasty to them, salmon oil and DE mixed in with their food daily. My 14 yr old basset had horrible plaque build up on her teeth and now they are all sparkly white. My ‘western medicine’ vet is now finally convinced that the raw diet is so much better than the kibble could hope to be.

Hope this helps you.

[Pitlove]

Hi Sharon- While I can’t give you a ton of advice on raw (others here can and Im sure will chim in) I do know that raw meaty bones help clean their teeth really well and are quite healthy for them.

I’ve also heard from a few people that they don’t feel that puppies in general should eat grain free however that is probably more towards dry food and not raw since raw is the ideal diet and contains no grains or carbs. Dr. Karen Becker interviewed a doctor who breeds Newfies and has all the pups on a raw diet. One of his Dam’s lived to 17 years old on raw.

Perhaps check out Darwins Pet Foods, they do raw and its already complete and balanced. Hare Today is grinds so you have to add your own vitamins etc. I’m sure others who do feed raw can give you some other sites or suppliers to look into. If your Newfie pup is still under 8 months you will need to make sure he’s getting proper calcium and phosphorus levels and make sure hes not being overfed. That will also aid in preventing skeletal disorders and overgrowth.

[Miss Koa]

Thank you Red for the PDF. I hadn’t searched it. It has very interesting info. I appreciate that! I like that I can refer to it on my tablet because I have it with me all the time. 🙂

Hi, crazy4cats! Thank you for sharing your experience with me. I know, the thought of raw meat kind of gives me the heebie jeebies. 😀 Where can I find this “commercial premix” stuff? Is it expensive? Is it sold in regular stores or do I have to order it online? Right now I’m doing a raw chicken in the morning and kibble in the evening…at least until I can figure stuff out. 🙂 At least my husband isn’t complaining….yet. 🙂

Hi Kristin C! Thank you for your reply! What is “homemade raw”? Do you grind the muscle meat, organs and supplements together? Also, do you feed it at the same time with the raw meaty bones or are they separate meals? I’m glad to hear that you haven’t had any contamination issues. That’s my main concern. I am very diligent about keeping my kitchen and work area very clean. ( I’m a bit of a germaphobe…lol! ) I was concerned more like if my dog ate her chicken, then she walked around the house, would it get on my socks…then if I went to lie down, will it transfer from my socks to the bed….that kind of thing. 🙂 Maybe I’m over thinking this too much.

I agree. It is a process and I can’t say for SURE that this is the best diet…still researching…but I also feel that I like the idea of feeding my dog food that I know is not filled with unnecessary chemicals and fillers.

Thank you everyone for your opinions and input. I appreciate all the help I get! 🙂

[Kristin C]

Hi Miss Koa-I feed both my dogs raw, mostly homemade and raw meaty bones, no more than 2-3 kibble meals per week. The ratio between homemade raw and commercial raw I feed depends upon the time of year. Right now, I will buy more commercial raw since the summer gets busy and it’s also easier to feed RMBs. I also buy raw nuggets from Steve’s Real Food For Dogs. It’s not HPP treated though, which I prefer. I also order grinds and RMBs from Reel Raw in Maine, and occasionally get turkey necks from a grocery store. When I make homemade food it’s a combo of muscle meat and organs plus a supplement. When I feed RMBs I make sure I add matching organs in proportion (this is cheaper I am finding). I also add some fish oil and vit E a few time per week (or sardines) plus a raw egg and cottage once or twice per week.

I have not found feeding raw to have any contamination issues. When I make the food I take the same precautions as if I was making food for me and my husband. Children,and the ill, I would watch out for though as others have mentioned. I only feed raw grinds inside, I feed in small mason jars. RMBs I feed outside, but my dogs don’t use their paws.

The final thing I can add about feeding raw is that I think it’s great IF it works for your dog. It is definitely a process. I have changed how I feed my dogs several times in the last year, keep reading and form your own opinions on what works for your dog and household.

[Pitlove]

Hi Terry-

Dogs aren’t born with allergies, they develop them over time through overexposure to the same food. Even though you were feeding an excellent quality dehydrated raw diet, you didnt vary the proteins she got, hence the sudden onset of the allergy.

As for the myth about the wet food making the teeth worse, its just that, a myth. Every dog needs their teeth brushed regularly just like a human in order to avoid dental problems. Raw meaty bones are also probably the best thing to clean the teeth like Rhonda suggested. And if you were rehydrating the raw as you should its no different than the wet food getting on her teeth.

I would suggest keeping her on the dehyrated raw diet but changing the protein source and even brand, obviously now avoiding whatever protein she is allergic to.

[Pitlove]

chris + naturella–
thanks! i usually either get “thats weird and gross” or “thats cool!” lol never really an inbetween reaction to my profession choice. i’ve worked in customer service for so many years i need a break from living people lol! and ive always been interested in forensics as well.

chris- if you can get fresh meats as a topper for the kibble i think that would be a great way to get some raw into Sparkys diet. And as long as the kibble is the vast majority of the meal you are safe from it being unbalanced.

I’ve tried raw meaty bones for my dog and he just licked at it and really didnt understand how to chew it lol. i might need to try again with a larger one as hes a big dog and i got him a dinky little bone just to try it out.

Naturella- with RMB’s is it safe to feed them outside even if you dont have like a porch for them to eat it on? im afraid of dirt and stuff getting into it.

[Naturella]

If you can get some Raw Meaty Bones, like beef ribs, and some meat, fresh from the farm and at a good price, I’d go for it, yes. RMBs are really good for dental health and raw is really good period. Balanced raw, that is. But as an addition, it would not hurt if it is under the 10% of total meals.

[Chloe K]

Hi there! I have a 12 week old German Shepherd boy and we just started a week ago on raw – We are currently feeding him a premade diet which is costing me a fortune so I would like to look into creating my own meal for him.

So far I’ve learned:

“2.5% of Bears weight (40kg) 1kg

45% Raw Meaty Bones – 450g
45% Muscle Meat – 450g
5% Organ Meat – – 50g

Your goal is to have no more than 20-25% actual bone in the diet.
25% of 450g is 112g”

This is what I have written down, I would like to feed him 2 meals a day when he is older, so that is 25g of offal per meal? Is that right? That seems like such a low amount?

Can I feed raw chicken and raw beef in the same meal?

Can I feed him say 125g of Turkey and 125g of Chicken for one meal, with 25g of beef liver? Is this okay? Should I do this?
How often should I really feed him fish? Twice a week? I think I would like to feed him a whole fish? Gilapia or Whiting Fillets are these a good choice? If not, what are some good choices? I’m trying my hardest to find Green Tripe in Australia but it’s proving difficult, I would like to add some veggies in his diet, which are the BEST? How often should I add them? I know I have to juice/blend them or else he won’t get the full benefit.

I am from Australia so I weigh things in grams and kgs
Is Kangaroo a good source of meat also? What about Kangaroo heart and liver?

Bear is going to puppy school today! I can say he will be the most handsome there

Here is a picture of my little guy 🙂

[pugmomsandy]

What do you feed them regularly? Kibble? Homemade? If you’re currently feeding them a balanced diet, then you can give raw meaty bones (RMB) or other unbalanced food for no more than 20% of their diet and not have to worry about balancing the diet out. If you feed twice a day then you can give 2.8 meals as unbalanced such as the chicken legs and thighs. Of course that depends on the size of your dog whether or not a drumstick or thigh is enough for one meal. I do feed raw bones thawed though.

[Ellen D]

Hello –

I have a 3 month old labradoodle puppy. He was 20 lbs a week ago, so I’d think he’s between 20 and 25 now. He’ll be about 65 pounds full grown most likely.

I’m currently feeding him Nature’s Variety Instinct Large Puppy kibble, which I’ve now realized is even too high in calcium for him. He gets some Stella & Chewy meal mixer in with breakfast and I always give him either a scrambled egg, cottage cheese, pumpkin, or some plain meat chunks with dinner – lunch is plain kibble, as that’s at the day care most days. He gets a raw chicken wing or thigh as a treat a couple times a week right now.

I’m going to plead ignorance and admit that I thought I was doing a great thing by getting him “fancy” kibble and only realized a week into having him that there’s much, much more to dog food than dry kibble.

So my dilemma:

–I need to provide him with some form of kibble or dry-fed food for various reasons – the day care can’t mix his food, I do travel from time to time on business so he may need to be boarded 3-4 days per month, and I’m afraid if I stop kibble altogether he might refuse it while I’m away and be a very hungry boy when I return. However, this doesn’t have to continue to be a significant portion of his food. I am happy to keep it just to stuff Kongs/food toys so he stays used to it, but I need to have some on hand. I’ve narrowed this down to – Annamaet Salcha, Avoderm Turkey, or Fromm Beef Frittata.

–I am very interested in a raw diet for him, but I can’t decide what to do here. I’d like to have some freeze-dried product on hand (narrowed down to NRG Maxim and THK Love) for convenience. But ultimately, once he’s down to 2 meals per day from 3, I’d like to go as full raw as I can do – whether it be commercial or homemade or a combo. I have found what I am confident is a very good and versatile homemade recipe (from Ottowa Valley Dog Whisperer – are we allowed to post links here?). My one and only issue with this recipe is I need to sit down and do some maths and figure out what to add in terms of calcium – if I need to alter the recommendation in the recipe based on having a largish breed puppy.

–I am also interested in supplementing with raw meaty bones, as my dog really enjoys his chicken wings and chews them very nicely. Is it okay to just use rmbs as a supplement/treat kind of deal? Could/should I give him one daily or just a few times a week or is it better to just replace a whole meal with them? I would vary the meat/bone source often.

I’m trying to do the right and best thing for my puppy, and I’m 100% open to suggestions and criticism about my plans. I welcome any and all advice, as I’m new to this and my head is just spinning. Added to this is that my wife travels 5 days a week, I work full time outside the home, and we have a 4 year old (human) daughter as well as 2 cats and about 200 fish haha! So I’m a single parent 5 days a week. I’m really at the mercy of convenience. However, I can manage an evening cooking session once a week or a couple times a month and can freeze portion sized amounts. It’s just a matter of figuring out that pesky calcium balance. The recipe calls for powdered eggshell or bone meal. OR I can add whole prey meat to the recipe – I assume I would grind this – and omit the eggshell.

If I were to make the homemade diet, I feel like I would probably feed that for 2 meals per day and continue with kibble for 1 meal. And then when pup’s down to 2 meals, perhaps full homemade with kibble in the kong or as hand fed treats so he stays accustomed to it.

Last question – there doesn’t seem to be a lot of question/issue with feeding raw meaty bones or prey model diets to large breed puppies. Does the nature of a raw diet negate the need to watch the calcium levels so closely?

[DogFoodie]

Sam, my Golden, won’t eat it. He’s OK with a for a meal (although it’s the one thing he won’t clean his bowl of) and then after that, he won’t touch it at a subsequent meal. Sniff. Walk away. He likes some raw, meaty bones, but just doesn’t get into eating raw. He prefers kibble with toppers.

Bella, my Cavalier, will eat the Darwin’s, but I feel bad giving it to her and not him – even though he doesn’t like it. I should’ve fed it to her anyway.

Then, there’s also that part of me that says, it’s been in the freezer too long and isn’t good anymore.

Should I still use it?

[Jennifer H]

I would stick with Fromm. Taste of the Wild is manufactured by Diamond, and while the food is good, the company is pretty shady and has a long history of recalls. A lot of people here recommend a rotational diet with kibble, there’s a few threads on it around you may be interested in 🙂

As for feeding raw. I personally wouldn’t mix them in the same meal, as this can give some dogs digestive upset. I would feed one meal as kibble, and one meal as raw. For raw, you want to feed him 2% of his body weight per day. So if you’re only feeding one meal of raw, cut that number in half. So since he is 100~lbs, he would need 2 lbs of food per day. Since he is only getting 1 meal a day of raw, that would be 1lb of food at his mealtime.

Start him out slow with just poultry for awhile to get his tummy used to it. Then you can gradually start introducing other meats like beef, pork, etc and organs, which are an important part of the diet. When feeding something bony like a turkey neck, add in some nice meaty meat like chicken breast or hearts (about half the weight of the bones worth) to cut the calcium and prevent constipation.

I currently feed my dog kibble in the morning and raw at night (next week we make the switch to full raw!!) and he does well on it.

For chews, you can try giving him a frozen turkey neck and let him work on that. It can keep a dog busy for hours.

You could also look into antlers, although I know some people have reservations over them being too hard.

This is a good thread to read to find some information on raw food – /forums/topic/menus/

[AJ A]

Thanks for all your opinions and experiences, I am glad I received replies.
I won’t ever go back to kibble EVER.
And I don’t run to the Vet all the time. I am organic myself since 15 yrs and haven’t seen a doctor since. Not even once!
I use common sense and needed to see if my case was only happening to my pup. As I can see it is definitely the water in the meat. Thats why they dont need to drink as much water as they do with kibble. Today I controlled a little the water intake and he pees less often, but still bigger spots than before and specially after feeding the chicken. He is doing just fine and has top energy, his coat started shining and it is growing faster than it was 1 month ago.
Before I switched to raw I did a deep education to be prepared, asking raw feeding breeders all over from Australia to Germany, checked everything online and started to understand that raw diet should not contain veggies neither grains like the BARF diet.. Wolves dont get a complete balanced diet everyday, neither do we and certainly they wont be searching for carrots, spinach and grains in their habitat. They receive the fermented enzymes from the digested food of their prey’s tripe, thats the good stuff, thats what they will eat first, thats where lots of balanced nutrients are.
When starting a raw diet with puppies (especially small breed) you best start with chicken, because low fat and easier digested than ground beef. Because I tried both, beef (grass fed 95%lean) and chicken. He regurgitated the whole ground beef everytime he ate it. He never did with the chicken. The wing helps cleaning his teeth and he gets supplements from the core of the bone and calcium.1 egg a week for breakfast. I give bone meal since he does not yet get enough bones in his food yet. Once he is used to the chicken and wings/necks I will start to join some liver and heart and green tripe little by little to not upset his digestion. Than we will do the same with duck, lamb and rabbit including organ and muscle meat as well. Of course a meaty bone everyday or 3 times a week.
Once established his likes than we can start feeding 1 day chicken, next duck and so on. I forgot the fish. Some fresh fish once a week is important as well.
I think probiotics , enzymes and clay are a must have in the kitchen. So is ionic silver and therapeutic grade essential oils like geranium, peppermint, frankincense and lemon. When they get lose stool some clay with enzymes/probiotics and diarrhea is cleared.
I use ionic silver to disinfect drinking water, once in a while internal against parasites and to clear my Shih Tzu’s eyes (14yrs). He suffers dry eyes and since he is on raw diet as well since 2 weeks his dry eye symptoms are already totally gone!! Yeahhhh! Now I hope to see changes in his coat like color and softness. His constant fear should disappear as well and his appetite should get better and better. I really hope to gain some more years of his company. I love him so much and hope we can gain back as much health as he has lost due to those bad kibble diet. He lost some of his hair on his back and I truly hope the high protein intake will fix most of his problems.
I stopped using vaccines on my Shih Tzu since 10yrs, neither I believe in spaying/neuter dogs. My pup received vaccines from her Vet, he won’t ever receive any other vaccines in his life. I dont believe it does any good, not for pets and neither for humans. Build up a healthy immune system and eat organic food and you will be fine!!! Same for dogs. THEY ARE DOGS NOT HUMANS!!! THEY DESERVE TO EAT HOW NATURE DESIGNED THEM TO.

[John M]

in case nobody knows this apparently appears to be a thing and appears to be superior to all of these things.

http://www.rawmeatybones.com/petowners/feedyourdogrmb.php

okay ya do know
/forums/topic/eating-raw-meaty-bones/

• This reply was modified 9 years, 1 month ago by John M.

[Kristin C]

BulldogMom-I make most of my dogs food and if you are looking for a chicken recipe here is one.

30% breasts
30% thighs
5% liver
15% gizzards
5% pureed vegs and/or fruit
15% pumpkin
If you are not adding a supplement with calcium then add 1/2 tsp ground eggshell per lb of meat.

Please note that this is not all you can feed in the long term. I feed beef with many organs, plus a variety of other proteins/organs and raw meaty bones, plus sardines. Hope that helps.

[Naturella]

Hello here too, guys! 🙂

Ok, so for Peggy, I will post again the pics of Bruno’s menu and additives schedule, maybe she can choose some from there, and also check out the amounts for a 15-ish lb dog.

http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q644/aninova/Bruno2014-2015Menu_zps6ccc6e19.jpg

http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q644/aninova/BrunoWeeklyToppers_zpsdfd1a9be.jpg

Ok, so I feed the above toppers with the 1/4 cup of kibble as noted. You can use other fresh food toppers, like I see you have – raw or lightly cooked ground meats are great, raw or lightly cooked eggs too, cottage cheese, cooked veggies/leafy greens, some fruits (I give fruits raw), raw meats/raw meaty bones, canned sardines, jack mackerel, or salmon (not tuna – too much mercury I hear), yoghurt/kefir, coconut or fish oil (or both), canned pumpkin is good for fiber as is flaxseed meal (and the latter also gives Omega 3s), etc. There’s a lot to choose from that you can add, but let me recommend that you also add some warm water to the kibble. You may choose to soak it or not, but it does help with hydration and for ease of mixing oils, eggs, yoghurt, dehydrated foods, and just about anything else. It may look gross and soupy in the bowl, but it is so good to our furry friends, and they will slurp it all up nonetheless! At least Bruno does! 🙂

• This reply was modified 9 years, 3 months ago by Naturella.

[DogFoodie]

Cooking a bone changes the structure of the bone will cause it to splinter. Bone splinters are dangerous. You should only offer your dog raw bones. I don’t give my dogs weight bearing bones either because they’re aggressive chewers and weight bearing bones are too hard for them. Here’s a thread about raw, meaty bones: /forums/topic/eating-raw-meaty-bones/

[pugmomsandy]

Yes, Raw Meaty Bone (RMB) is actually raw meat and bones. My personal dogs are raw fed (ground to whole prey) and eat dehydrated foods and my fosters eat kibble, canned and dehydrated foods. I’ve used Amicus, Back to Basics, and currently use Muenster Grain Free and Pro Pac Ultimates Grain Free and Nutrisouce Grain Free regularly and all the dogs’ stools have been solid, even with the addition of canned foods. How much are you feeding of EVO BTW? Also, you might find a Rotational Diet beneficial. My dogs always have solid stool no matter what I’m feeding since I change regularly.

http://urbanpawsmagazine.com/archives/59

For a dry, shelf stable dehydrated raw product, check out Stella and Chewy’s, Primal, Nature’s Variety, and Vital Essentials.

Here’s the raw feeding pictures topic:

/forums/topic/pictures-of-dogs-eating-raw-raw-meals/

[Naturella]

Anita, even though your vet said to do that, the kibble size will do nothing to help clean your dog’s teeth. It is like cleaning our molars with large cookies.

What you can do is try to get your dog used to brushing. You can start with putting some coconut oil or dog toothpaste on your finger and let your dog lick it, then slowly get it used to you rubbing it on his/her teeth with your finger, and little by little move to a rubber brush that you put on your finger, or a real dog toothbrush. Since you have to get in the back of the mouth, it won’t be easy, but it’s really the best way to keep their teeth clean, and you need to do it daily, or at least a few times a week.

Another alternative is feeding raw meaty bones, like chicken necks, feet, wings, legs, etc., or pork/beef riblets and neck bone pieces. Always supervise while your dog is eating those and make sure she/he crushes them up well and is not gulping them. You can feed those a couple times a week, but make sure the amount is no more than 20-25% of your dog’s balanced diet. And no cooked bones.

Hope this helps! 🙂

[Akari_32]

Is his mouth infected at all? If not, start giving raw meaty bones (like turkey and chicken necks, wings, thighs, and legs– my 8 lb Jack russell mix loves legs!). If the mouth is infected you can give chews like bully sticks and tracheas (you can give these along with RMBs, as well). If there is an infection, you should also consider asking the vet about giving him some antibiotics.

If he will chew any of these things, you will probably end up not even having to a dental.