Feeding Raw: Questions and Concerns

Dog Food Advisor Forums Raw Dog Food Feeding Raw: Questions and Concerns

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  • #82220 Report Abuse

    Kelly P
    Member

    Ok I have not yet gotten my puppy I have about 4 weeks still. She will grow up to be around 100lbs, so I’ll probably feed her about 2lbs a day. We will be training too with treats so I need to be sure they level each other out. I have done a lot of research as I’ve been preparing for the past 1-2 years. What I found so far is the following.

    Feeding anti-oxidants or some sort of cooked veggies is a good idea. Feeding organic eggs, shell and all, is good at least once a week. Egg shells provide a lot of calcium. Feeding a whole fish once a week is good because of the oil it provides, be sure not to feed tuna because of the high mercury levels. Cooked Tripe is great and so is a some coconut oil. I figure I can saute the veggies in coconut oil.

    As far as percentages I have read a few different things but my research has come up with the below.

    Version 1
    75% Muscle/skin (i.e chicken breast)
    10% Edible Bone
    5% Liver
    5% Non liver organs
    5% Anti-oxidants/Veggies

    Version 2
    50% Meaty Bones
    35% Muscle/Skin (i.e chicken breast)
    5% Liver
    5% Non liver organs
    5% Anti-oxidants/Veggies

    My main questions are about bones. I know you can’t just let the dog eat bones they have to get used to them so they actually chew them, else I’ll have to grind them up. But I’d prefer not to. Wolves don’t grind their bones up prior to eating.

    I also am not entirely sure of what are good meaty bones, I know almost all bones in small animals are fine. Neck/tail bones of larger animals for the most part are fine. To stay away from basically legs as they’re denser. And an Edible bone should be something that is easily consumable.

    What would be the best way to get my puppy acclimated to bones properly? Hand feeding is one I’ve found, but will I be able to trust my dog as she gets older and bigger? I don’t plan to leave her food out or anything but let’s say I put the food down and something comes that needs my attention for a bit. I’d like to think she’d be fine. I’m paranoid and want to do this right.

    Also could I possibly be missing something at all?

    Resources used
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijP_CVZUa5g&list=LLcG0oHG3mpprbGFFglrzVyg&index=2
    http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/raw-feeding-primer/
    http://rawfeddogs.org/rawguide.html
    http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/04/01/raw-food-diet-part-1.aspx
    http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/04/01/raw-food-diet-part-2.aspx
    http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/04/01/raw-food-diet-part-3.aspx
    http://www.dogster.com/forums/Raw_Food_Diet/thread/697247/1
    And various other user forums and sites.

    • This topic was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by  Kelly P.
    #82222 Report Abuse

    anonymously
    Member

    http://www.homeovet.net/dynamic/php/downloads/dog-c8470f2c75dbe4b683205c3919ee2310/dog_diet_complete.pdf

    Maybe this will help.

    PS: Bones are risky. Once you have been to the emergency vet once or twice due to broken teeth, or GI blockages, you may change your mind about providing them for your pet.

    BTW: A dog is not a wolf. http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2014/06/one-more-time-dogs-are-not-wolves/

    #82225 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi Kelly P,

    Your plan makes me very nervous. Have you consulted with a veterinary nutritionist? There are a few that will do raw diets and even fewer yet willing to do a raw diet for a growing large breed puppy. It i s very tricky… adult dogs are much more flexible from a nutritional standpoint.

    If you want to do raw from puppyhood I’d recommend a commercial raw that has passed feeding trials for growth and is high pressure pasteurized.

    #82228 Report Abuse

    Kelly P
    Member

    @anonymously – I do know bones can be risky, but you have to get calcium in the diet. Which is why actually most people grind the bones, meat, and other ingredients into mush. I would prefer that my puppy learn to chew.

    Also I don’t really care for you bringing in articles in regards to dogs are not wolves. A dog is a carnivore not an omnivore. You can argue that the parasites living on the meat can threaten the animal’s life, but then you have the same issue with your raw Commercial food, unless they’re not telling the truth and it’s really cooked raw meat.

    @aimee – I understand your worry which is why I’ve spent time researching.
    I have not talked to a Veterinary nutritionist because I don’t know of any. A Veterinary is not a nutritionist either so I can’t ask them. Here’s what I’ve learned though for puppy specific food. Puppies need more calcium than an adult dog. I’ve also read that it’s best to start raw feeding from an early age. Do you buy the same bag of food for an adult as for a puppy?

    Wysong doesn’t seem to have a difference, I didn’t see any of the Dawrwin’s to have a choice between adult and puppy. Primal Raw Food doesn’t seem to have a difference either… Am I missing the Puppy formula? Nature’s Variety Raw doesn’t seem to have puppy specific formula. I know Blue Buffalo does but that’s merely grain free dog food. I’m not trying to be a jerk, but if the formula for the adult dog doesn’t change why is it an issue? I’ve also read that there’s a large margin of error when feeding raw, maybe like you suggested its only for adults because puppy nutrition is so important. Or maybe because no one expects to feed a puppy any raw food?

    #82235 Report Abuse

    anonymously
    Member

    You asked for opinions and that was what was provided.
    Traditional veterinarians and homeopathic veterinarians tend not to agree on diet, treatment modalities, etc.
    Both are businesses and charge for their services. I hope you are able to find a veterinarian that you trust to guide you with these decisions. Best of luck.

    #82236 Report Abuse

    El
    Member

    Hi Kelly P

    I would recommend these 2 books as part of your research into feeding a properly balanced raw diet to your pup.

    http://www.amazon.com/Beckers-Real-Food-Healthy-Dogs/dp/0982533128

    http://www.amazon.com/Unlocking-Canine-Ancestral-Diet-Healthier/dp/1929242670/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1453507384&sr=1-2

    “Ok I have not yet gotten my puppy I have about 4 weeks still. She will grow up to be around 100lbs, so I’ll probably feed her about 2lbs a day.”

    Here are the feeding guidelines from Primal, I think they are pretty accurate. Puppies need more than 2% of their body weight daily.

    Feeding Percentages
    1.5% Weight Loss
    2.0% Non-Active
    2.5% Maintain Weight **
    3.0% Slight Weight Gain
    3.5% Significant Weight Gain
    4.0% Kittens/Puppies (8 weeks-1 year)
    4.5-8.0% Kittens/Puppies (4-8 weeks)
    4.0-8.0% Pregnant/Lactating

    “We will be training too with treats so I need to be sure they level each other out. I have done a lot of research as I’ve been preparing for the past 1-2 years. What I found so far is the following.
    Feeding anti-oxidants or some sort of cooked veggies is a good idea.”

    I would puree the veggies. Cauliflower, broccoli, spinach in moderation, green beans, peas in moderation…

    “Feeding organic eggs, shell and all, is good at least once a week. Egg shells provide a lot of calcium.”

    I would suggest free-range organic eggs. I know that people feed finely ground egg shells as a calcium source, but I don’t know about feeding whole egg shells. I would do a little more research specifically on the calcium requirements of large breed puppies if I were you. She will be getting calcium from bones, egg shells, spinach and ?

    Feeding a whole fish once a week is good because of the oil it provides, be sure not to feed tuna because of the high mercury levels. Cooked Tripe is great and so is a some coconut oil. I figure I can saute the veggies in coconut oil.

    In general, I would feed small fish, they usually have softer bones and less toxic buildup. I would not cook the tripe. One of the benefits of feeding “Raw Green Tripe” are the enzymes, and any processing or cooking will destroy those enzymes.

    “As far as percentages I have read a few different things but my research has come up with the below.
    Version 1
    75% Muscle/skin (i.e chicken breast)
    10% Edible Bone
    5% Liver
    5% Non liver organs
    5% Anti-oxidants/Veggies
    Version 2
    50% Meaty Bones
    35% Muscle/Skin (i.e chicken breast)
    5% Liver
    5% Non liver organs
    5% Anti-oxidants/Veggies”

    I feed my dogs a homemade lightly cooked diet. Version one looks pretty good. Since I lightly cook my guys food I would replace the 10% edible bone with 5% more pureed veggies and 5% supplements to balance out the diet.

    “My main questions are about bones.”

    This is good because I see bones as the riskiest part of your diet plan and I would carefully consider both sides of the argument so that you can make the most informed choice possible. Also, regarding Wolves and bones, research has shown that larger pieces of bones are excreted from wolves wrapped in the fur of the animal they ate, maybe as a way of protecting their insides from the bone fragments.

    Good Luck with the new addition to your family 😉

    #82238 Report Abuse

    Pitlove
    Member

    Hi Kelly- “Puppies need more calcium than an adult dog” Right here is where I need to stop you. Your puppy will be considered a giant breed and while you have been researching a homemade raw diet, you haven’t factored in that you have a dog that will be large. Large and giant breeds do not need more calcium, they need very very controlled levels. The ratio of calcium to phosphorus needs to fall between a 1.1:1 and a 1.5:1 ratio. Anything higher can increase the risk that they grow too quickly and develop devastating orthopedic disorders. I’ve seen the horrible effects of a large breed puppy (specifically a Great Dane) fed a raw diet that was poorly balanced.

    I’m sorry, but I have to agree with Aimee on this. I’m not against feeding raw, but for a large or giant breed, optimal growth is the first and foremost important thing. I would absolutely choose a commercial food that can confirm by emailing you their as fed or MAX levels of calcium and phosphorus, that it is safe for your giant breed puppy.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 8 months ago by  Pitlove.
    • This reply was modified 3 years, 8 months ago by  Pitlove.
    #82256 Report Abuse

    Shawna
    Member

    Hi Kelly P,

    I’m a raw feeder and also recommend feeding raw right on weaning or as soon after as possible. I think feeding bones to dogs that handle them is a great idea – Of my eight, I have one that gulps and bones are too risky for her. The others actually chew so they get bones. However when it comes to large breed puppies, aimee is right. They need controlled amounts of calcium and shouldn’t be overfed. That DOESN’T mean they can’t eat raw though. Hound Dog Mom has recipes here on the forum that are an excellent option for large breed puppies.

    Here’s a couple good sources on large breed puppies and calcium
    “Optimal feeding of large breed puppies, Jennifer Larsen DVM, MS ”
    http://www.lgd.org/library/Optimal%20feeding%20of%20large%20breed%20puppies.pdf

    “The Mistake That Can Wreak Havoc on Your Dog’s Skeleton” Dr. Karen Becker DVM
    http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/05/31/large-dog-feeding-mistakes.aspx

    Wishing best of health for your pupp!!

    #82286 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi Kelly,

    You can find veterinary nutritionists through their website acvn dot org. But most won’t do raw diets and even fewer a raw diet for a puppy. If you want to go that route I’d suggest trying Dr Bartges

    The reason most won’t, I think, is two fold.. one the pathogen exposure and two the availability of nutrients contained in raw meaty bones isn’t quantified. Providing calcium at just the right range for a large breed pup becomes an unknown if calcium absorption from these sources isn’t known.

    Some time ago I read an article on a pup that had severe calcium depletion on a home made raw diet yet there was plenty of bone in the gut.. In other words the calcium from the bone that was being fed wasn’t being absorbed.

    So I wonder if a vet nutritionist who would formulate for a pup would skip the bone and use a Ca source whose availability is known.

    The commercial raw foods you mention may be all life stage formula’s meaning they meet the criteria for puppies and then by default for adults.

    The only company I know of that made a raw that went through feeding trials and is HPP and consults with a vet nutritionist is Natures Variety. The current formula haven’t been through feeding trials but carry a feeding trial statement by way of AAFCO’s family rule.

    Like pitlove, I too have seen horrible results from a raw food diet on the growth of a puppy. The owner was an experienced raw food feeder for her past adult dogs and this was the first pup she raised on raw. The dog was anemic, small for its breed and had to have orthopedic surgery at a young age. So sad….After having seen this first hand it is why I’m uneasy with your plan.

    #82287 Report Abuse

    Pitlove
    Member

    Hi Aimee-

    “The only company I know of that made a raw that went through feeding trials and is HPP and consults with a vet nutritionist is Natures Variety. The current formula haven’t been through feeding trials but carry a feeding trial statement by way of AAFCO’s family rule.”

    A different allopathic vet I brought Bentley to said the only raw company she recommends is Primal because they consult with several nutritionists to formulate. I’m not sure if Primal is HPP, perhaps only their poultry is? Have you heard this about Primal?

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 8 months ago by  Pitlove.
    #82290 Report Abuse

    anonymously
    Member

    Recent NYT article, slightly off topic but relevant to the discussion (imo)

    http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/the-big-search-to-find-out-where-dogs-come-from/ar-BBonuuj

    “Scientists have come up with a broad picture of the origins of dogs. First off, researchers agree that they evolved from ancient wolves. Scientists once thought that some visionary hunter-gatherer nabbed a wolf puppy from its den one day and started raising tamer and tamer wolves, taking the first steps on the long road to leashes and flea collars. This is oversimplified, of course, but the essence of the idea is that people actively bred wolves to become dogs just the way they now breed dogs to be tiny or large, or to herd sheep.”

    #82291 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi Pitlove,

    I feed some Primal but I do lightly cook it as it is not HPP except for the poultry product. Last time I checked as I recall they consult with a PhD nutritionist… not a veterinary nutritionist.

    They haven’t feed trialed the diets and i don’t know if the nutritional information they post is based off of lab analysis or computer paper analysis.

    As far as raw food companies goes I think it is one of the relatively better ones…but I do cook the food and only use it as a topper and not as a complete diet.

    #82300 Report Abuse

    Pitlove
    Member

    Thanks for the info Aimee!

    #82497 Report Abuse

    Leslie R
    Member

    I’m new to the forum here and I saw that on Feb 20 2013 Hound Dog Mom posted an assessment of Big Country Raw which listed the vitamins and supplements it would need to be a complete feed. I followed the original question and found Dawson didn’t do well on it. I have friend’s who swear by it and they have aussies with magnificent coats and apparent excellent health. I have a rescue silky terror that has gone from a greasy coat to a better coat although a bit dry through kibble changes. I am seriously considering raw and as I live down the street from BCR I wonder if you possibly have the time to reassess this product. I would also love your opinion on mixing proteins also as there is so much debate I find on this topic. Thanks in advance!

    http://www.bigcountryraw.ca/menu.php

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