[EVAN H]

Trainers telling me that they can feed raw chicken with the bones intact to large breed dogs and that the dogs don’t seem to be susceptible to salmonella..AND YET…I just now got an email alert from this website here saying some turkey sprinkles was being recalled due to salmonella…

?????? opinions/ actually would prefer some facts??

tks

[Anonymous]

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/category/nutrition/
You may find these blogs helpful, something to think about anyway.

[EVAN H]

tks Red…!! I just ordered that Feed your pet right from Amazon..but still confused…going to ask my vet about dogs and salmonella…

[sharon b]

I also am more confused than ever. I have another thread going on starting to feed large breeds raw. Also not only concerned about the pathogen’s that I would think if buying commercially would be at minimal risk, I would think that dogs in general would have the enzymes in their GI systems (that humans do not) to kill these serious bacteria?? But I read one article where a man lost his 9 & 1/2 y/o dog after twice taking him to the vet and the e-coli didn’t come up on routine test’s because they don’t test the GI tract.
Also of concern to me is I myself have a very weak immune system, but want what is best for my dogs, so could wear gloves, but what about where they walk, lick, one is a drooler??? Can’t control all aspects of it just with gloves. Think I will also get this book on my kindle.

[Anonymous]

The SkeptVet recommends this book, see below excerpt from a post response:

More Evidence of the Risk of Infectious Diseases Associated with Raw Pet Foods

“As for what people should feed, I have recommended and reviewed the book Dog Food Logic, which is all about this, so I encourage everyone interested in thinking about what to feed their pets to read this. I think the AAFCO standards pretty clearly prevent obvious deficiency or excess disorders. I think there is good evidence for some dietary therapies aimed at specific health problems (such as special diets for animals with kidney disease). I don’t think a strong, universal generalization about what is best for all dogs, all cats, etc. is possible or reasonable. And I don’t think anyone knows what the optimal diet for any individual pet is because the interaction between nutrition and health is complex”

[InkedMarie]

As far as I know, salmonella isn’t dangerous to dogs, only humans. I wouldn’t bother asking your vet; chances are he will tell you not to feed raw, which is wrong IMO. Vets get very little education in nutrition.

[Dina H]

If you google ‘youtube dr karen becker raw’ you will find a 3 part series on raw food feeding….very very good. answers many questions.

[SkeptVet]

“As far as I know, salmonella isn’t dangerous to dogs, only humans.”
Not true:

Yes, dogs can get salmonellosis

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24277916
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC339295/

“I wouldn’t bother asking your vet; chances are he will tell you not to feed raw, which is wrong IMO. Vets get very little education in nutrition.”
So you shouldn’t ask a medical professional for advice if it is likely you will disagree with that advice? Do most pet owners have more “education in nutrition” than vets, or just opinions gleaned from the internet and some books they’ve read? Of course, some like to discount the education vets do have as mere food industry propaganda and the alternative information on the internet as somehow more independent and legitimate, but that’s merely an excuse for dismissing an opinion they don’t like.

What do Veterinarians Know About Nutrition?

[aimee]

Hi Skeptvet!

Just want to say thanks for all you do! Thanks for your input!

[Anonymous]

(In response to the above post) Ditto.

[Cyndi]

Yes, thanks for your input, even though it’s wrong. A balanced raw diet is the best you can feed your dog, and I will continue to do so and NOT listen to my vet because most of them don’t know a damn thing about nutrition.

[crazy4cats]

Welcome back Cyndi! 😀

[Cyndi]

Lol! Thanks. Not really back, just had to throw in my 2 cents. Too much drama on this site anymore for me to deal with on a daily basis, but I do lurk around every so often to see what’s up. 🙂

[DogFoodie]

Oh Cyndi! My vet gets on my case when I see her if I’m NOT feeding raw at the moment! 🙂

[Cyndi]

I wish your vet was closer to me. I can’t find a good vet that agrees with raw feeding. Except the quack I saw a couple years ago, but I ain’t going back to her, lol!

[Shawna]

It’s taken me almost 45 minutes to get logged in but I was determined. Had to create a new account but then it seems to have reverted back to my old so….?

Center for Companion Animal Health, UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine
Vol. 8, No. 2, Fall 2003
“A number of bacterial organisms commonly associated with diarrhea in dogs and cats include Salmonella, Campylobacter, Clostridium perfringens and Clostridium difficile.

Veterinarians are faced with a quandary when attempting to diagnose dogs and cats with suspected bacterial-associated diarrhea, because these organisms commonly represent a normal part of the host’s intestinal microflora.” http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/ccah/local-assets/pdfs/newsletter_2003_fall.pdf

They’re already in there people. I’m surprised the vets among us aren’t aware of this information?

There are many many vets that recommend a raw, or at least a home prepared, diet. I could name 30 or so off the top of my head that could easily be verified online. But I’ll start with just one – not only is she a vet but she is a veterinary nutritionist and taught veterinary small animal nutrition for over 30 years. Dr. Meg Smart states in an interview on the AngryVet website “I see a benefit in feeding whole foods whether cooked or raw.” http://www.angryvet.com/angryvet-nutrition-interview-drs-joseph-wakshlag-and-meg-smart/ She also discusses and defends raw on her blog.

Dr. Elizabeth Hodkins co-wrote the book “Not Fit for a Dog” with Dr. Smart and one other. Dr. Hodkins used to work for Science Diet. In fact her LinkedIn page says this about her “She taught veterinary parasitology at UC Davis following her residency before leaving academia to join Hills Pet Nutrition for almost a decade.” She taught parasitology and yet she still recommends a raw food diet — INTERESTING… Hmmmm She talks about raw on her website catnutrition.org

• This reply was modified 8 years, 9 months ago by Shawna.
• This reply was modified 8 years, 9 months ago by Shawna.

[Cyndi]

Well said Shawna!! As usual! 😉

[InkedMarie]

SkeptVet: I do not see the point in talking to my regular vet about diet. I’ve had numerous regular vets and the ones that suggest a food to me always seem to suggest what they sell. Go figure. Since it’s Purina, Hills, RC, that says to me that they don’t know much about food. One tried to get me to feed a dental food but couldn’t tell me what made it so good for teeth except that is what the rep told her. Another vets eyes glazed over when I mentioned my brands, at that time: The Honest Kitchen, Natures Logic, Annamaet.

I should have said “I wouldn’t bother asking your *regular* vet, find a holistic vet for nutrition questions”. I feel the same way about vaccines….my vet knows if I have a question for her, I’ll ask otherwise I’m all set. My holistic vet is who I talk to about diet & vaccines.

[Skye G]

I don’t have much experience in feeding raw, but I personally will not feed my dog raw chicken due to concerns over salmonella. I always cook it. JMO.

[jakes mom]

My understanding is that a dog’s GI tract is shorter and stomach acid is more acidic than human’s, this makes it safer for them to eat raw stuff without getting sick. My dog eats raw and loves raw meaty bones, has never been sick. Nor have I gotten sick by feeding it. Just wash hands and keep kitchen clean. Also, don’t forget that the government (FDA) has their nose into regulating pet food. Companies may have to issue “CYA” recalls even tho there’s really no danger to the dog.
That said, nothing’s right for all dogs and people. If you aren’t comfortable with the raw feeding, there are plenty of other options for you like cooking a homemade diet for your dog. Or just feeding a good quality canned food or kibble, altho those are prone to recalls, too. Nothing is 100% safe in life. You just do the best you can.

[crazy4cats]

Well said, Jake’s Mom! No upvote button so had to post it! 👍🏻

[jakes mom]

Thanks, C4C 🙂

[C4D]

Let me preface this comment with the fact that I feed a variety of foods, including some kibble, canned, fresh cooked and commercial raw food. I have had no problems with my dogs or my family, including infants in the home on a regular basis. If you are an immune compromised person, I would definitely suggest a home cooked diet with a premix raw (these are only vegetables and vitamins) added as opposed to raw meat. Salmonella, listeria, and other bacterias are in many raw foods, including the ones we cook on a daily basis for our families. They can be present on the counters and sinks of our very own kitchen surfaces unless you clean and disinfect correctly. The bacteria can be present in treats, chews and dry dog food as well. Listeria is within the soil and water.

I also foster dogs and have had my share of dogs with Giardia, ringworm, demodex (not know to be infectious) and hookworms and have managed to not have any other person, child or dog infested with any of these problems. I am very proactive in testing my own dogs to ensure that they have not become infested with the various parasites that enter my home with the fosters.

There seems to be a bit of hysteria in the traditional veterinarian community. My own vet does accept the raw feeding of dogs as well as many of the more natural products, including the balanceit program, while also carrying some of the “therapeutic diets” for those that choose that route.

The problem with salmonella, is that it can also be linked to dry dog food:

CDC link:
http://www.cdc.gov/salmonella/dog-food-05-12/

CDC Salmonella General Info:

http://www.cdc.gov/salmonella/general/index.html

Skeptvet, in your regard to your links, the first one was someone’s blog, which of course, everyone has an opinion. I see this as the contrary to a holistic or natural feeder/vet’s blog.

The 2nd link, was a study of 442 salmonella isolates over a 58 year period. It doesn’t even state the point of the study! So what’s the point of this link in reference to a raw diet as there is no reference to a raw diet anywhere in the link? Yes, dogs can get salmonella, but they can also get cancer, arthritis, kidney disease and a host of other things.

The 3rd link was a study of 10 dogs being fed a homemade raw diet. Really? That’s not a very large study. Certainly not one that even the study could conclude was enough to draw any real conclusions, only a suggestion that infants and immune compromised people shouldn’t feed raw and perhaps a larger study should be done.
Did you also note that even though 80% (8 of the diets) of the raw diet tested positive for salmonella before fed, only 30% (3 dogs) of the dog’s had salmonella in their stool sample? An interesting note is that one of the 3 dogs that tested positive for salmonella was NOT fed a raw diet that had salmonella. So where did he get the salmonella from? And what did the other 6 dog’s digestive system do with the salmonella?

I do believe that if you feed raw, you have to be realistic and clean effectively and take precaution if there are small children in the household. If there are immune or cleanliness issues, then a balanced, fresh cooked diet would be the next best choice.

[C4D]

As a side note to skeptvet, I don’t ask a normal veterinarian what to feed my dogs any more than I would ask my general practioner doctor what I should be eating. I would ask a nutritionist if I needed advice.
I also believe that man and dog has survived and thrived for many thousands of years without asking a vet/doctor/nutritionist what they should be eating. I don’t think any living thing, man or beast ate kibble to survive those many thousands of years.

[Pitlove]

C4D- So well said!

SkeptVet- If you look through this site some more, you will see the countless people who have come on here seeking out other peoples advice because their regular vet’s have flat out admitted to them that they do NOT in fact have a lot of training in nutrition and can not help them with their dietary questions.

Do I think the average person knows more than the average vet? No…they probably know about the same about dog nutrition. My vet is the same way. She does not push the “vet recommended” foods on me thank god, but she has no clue what I’m talking about when I bring up majority of the foods I feed or want to feed.

That being said, even holistic vet’s can have their own agenda. I spoke with one who during the phone consultation started pushing acupuncture on me when I called to ask about titering for my dog. I was just as upset about that as I was when a vet tech who had never examed my dog ever told me he would have to go on a prescription diet from the information I gave her in our phone consulation.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 9 months ago by Pitlove.

[SkeptVet]

So if we are believers in raw diets, we should ignore most vets’ opinions on nutrition since they don’t know anything about it (and yet, somehow, we do know about nutrition even without any formal education, presumably because we’ve read some articles on the internet or some books on the subject). This includes ignoring the vast majority of board-certified veterinary nutritionists, who agree that there is no evidence supporting the claims for raw diets. They don’t know much about nutrition even though it is their specialty.(Oh, right, they are either deceived or lying because they are all pawns/shills for the pet food industry.) Yet, if a vet recommends raw then we should listen to them because obviously they do know about nutrition since they agree with us and so must be both well-informed and completely without bias or outside influences.

What this kind of discussion suggests is that the real issue is not how much vets know about nutrition but simply that we are looking only for sources of information that agree with what we already believe. The same applies to asking a “holistic vet” about vaccines. There is no reason to think such vets are better informed or know more about immunology than any others, but they must be a more reliable source of information because they agree with what you already believe.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but all opinions can be fairly and equally ignored if they don’t come with supporting evidence. And discussions about the evidence are more productive than discussions about opinions because they are less likely to degenerate into personalized and pointless debate. So far, there hasn’t been much discussion in this thread about specifics or evidence, mostly just opinion and “credentials.”

I tried to respond specifically and with evidence concerning the particular statements that “vets don’t know anything about nutrition” and that certain microorganisms in raw meat can’t be harmful to dogs. That shouldn’t be taken to mean anything more or less than what I said on those specific issues. For the record, I don’t know if raw diets have any health benefits compared with cooked fresh diets or commercial diets, and I don’t believe anyone else does either because there is no specific scientific evidence to answer that question. there are lots of theoretical arguments in both directions, and of course the usual persuasive yet utterly unreliable anecdotes, but not real data. I tend to suspect the ultimate answer will be that there is no benefit, but that’s just another opinion until there is real evidence.

[SkeptVet]

C4D,
The blogger I linked to is a veterinary infectious disease expert, and he discusses specific scientific evidence in the post I linked to, so this is not merely opinion but opinion informed by evidence and relevant expertise. The second link was not about raw diets because, as I tried to make clear in my post, I was not making a broad claim about raw diets but only responding to the specific comment that dogs were not susceptible to Salmonella infection or associated illness, a false claim that is often used to deny any potential risk to feeding raw meat. Again, I try to be specific and focused in these discussions since otherwise people waste energy arguing past one another.

The evidence is clear that infectious disease is a risk from any type of diet, that it is a greater risk from uncooked foods than cooked foods, and that it is a greater risk for people with potential immune system vulnerabilities (very young, very old, pregnant, ill, on immunosuppressive medications, etc.). This evidence needs to be considered when making choices about feeding raw. If evidence emerges that there are significant health benefits to doing so, then such risks may be worth taking and, as you suggest, it is appropriate to minimize them as best we can. If, however, there are no benefits to feeding raw compared with cooked homemade or commercial diets, then why take the risk at all? I’m still waiting for controlled studies looking at the relative merits of different feeding strategies because I don’t think the existing evidence is at all definitive.

Until that evidence is available, of course, we all need to make feeding decisions, and some may choose raw on the basis of the theoretical arguments or indirect evidence. That’s fine, and I’m not here to dissuade anybody.

What is problematic is when people make definitive claims that are supported by personal belief or anecdotes rather than real evidence. If you say your pets are healthy on a raw diet, that’s a perfectly fair observation. My pets are healthy on commercial diets, and neither experience says anything generalizable about raw vs. commercial foods. If, however, people claim raw must be healthier because of their personal experiences with it or because of the dubious theoretical arguments put forward for it, that’s not a legitimate claim. And if people claim all sorts of dire health problems caused by commercial diets, again those aren’t legitimate claims either without appropriate scientific evidence to support them.

[aquariangt]

Would you say, in general, that a human diet of dry, processed food, even if considered a complete meal (think perhaps, an MRE, backpackers food, maybe a diet of cheerios, ramen, and V8 Juice? I don’t know, throwing some examples) would be more beneficial than fresh food? If so, what would be the difference for dogs?

That said, I do feed kibble with canned, fresh, raw etc toppers, out of placement in my life right now, though I fully intend to move back towards a homemade diet at some point

[InkedMarie]

SkeptVet: you can do whatever you want. When it comes to nutrition, I do my own
research & talk to my holistic vet if I need to. I feed prey model raw, in ground
form. I honestly don’t care what my regular vets think about it. Since I see
vet food by Royal Canin, Purina & Hills/Science Diet on their shelves, that in
itself is telling. If they think those are good foods then they don’t know
enough about nutrition to advise me. Also, I don’t need advice. I can read.

Note that I said vets get very little nutrition training in vet school; if a vet is a
nutritionist or holistic vet, they have had more nutritional training.

Lastly, I own the pets, not my vet. That means that as long as am not abusing my
dogs, I’m free to make choices on what to do with my dogs.

[Pitlove]

SkeptVet- I think you’re assuming that we are lumping all veterinarians together into one uneducated category. We’re not. We are fully aware that veterinary nutritionists exist and have extensive training in canine nutrition and that integrative vet’s also have more education on the subject as well. We are specifically talking about your run-of-the-mill, average vet that went through vet school and persuded nothing else in the way of canine nutrition education. If my vet can not have an intelligent, opened minded discussion about nutrition and food and is only pushing whatever presciption foods are on their shelves or only willing to recommend foods high in corn, wheat, soy, by-products and a bunch of other junk, I think it’s safe to assume they don’t have much training in nutrition, hence why I mentioned people’s testimonies of their vets flat out admitting they are NOT given much education about canine nutrition in vet school. Are they lying? Do you think they would put their reputation on the line by being dishonest about something like that? I don’t.

I also don’t really understand how it doesn’t make sense to you that a raw diet or homecooked diet would not be better for a species that existed for thousands of years without Science Diet and Purina. Commercial dog food has only existed for about the last 100 years, so tell me, what did dogs eat before that first bag of “dog food” was created?

Commercial dog food doesn’t exist because it is nutritionally more sound for dogs, it exists because of the convenience factor for the human providing for the dog. The average person does not have the time to prepare meals for themselves, let alone their animals, as their animals often come second to their human families and children.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 9 months ago by Pitlove.

[FoxEyeX]

Dogs don’t get sick from salmonella ( maybe if they have auto immune desease) but they can pass it to you if you kiss their face or butt hahaha. But yeah North west naturals 25 lb box of chicken.. Tested for all that bad stuff 80/20 meat/produce.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 8 months ago by FoxEyeX.

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