[alexis w]

Here is a link to my blog with recipes that I made for my fur baby Callie. They are all grain free and meat based with a good mix of veggies and a link to a recommended supplement. I also have an article I wrote about dehydrated dog treats. Please check it out and comment so I know what I am lacking and what I’m doing right, even with all of my research I know there is always room for improvement! http://www.calliefoodrecipes.wordpress.com
thanks so much in advance and congrats to everyone who is so brave and awesome to make their fur babies homemade food!

[InkedMarie]

For the regulars here….does a cooked diet need to have bone in it?
I just glanced at the recipes but I didn’t see any bone.

[alexis w]

I am going to start supplementing with pre frozen(to kill the germs) raw meaty bones. you never want to give dogs cooked bones. if you prefer you can used crushed eggshell to give the calcium needed

[anonymously]

In response to the above post, are you a veterinarian? If not, you may want to be more careful about how you express your opinions. You may not know as much as you think you do.
It is one thing to offer an opinion, but opinion is not fact.

Raw meaty bones caused me at least 3 visits to the emergency vet with more than one dog.

“First do no harm”

[alexis w]

i didnt state it as if i was a vet, never said i was, all i said is that is what i was giving my dog. it is what was recommended to me by someone who has fed homemade dog food with the help of a vet and nutritionist for many years. the bones cause problems when they are not properly supervised or are not the right size for the dog. please do not attack me.

[anonymously]

I am just sharing my experience which happens to be different from yours.
PS: The bones I fed my dogs were supervised, small, and only served once a week.

[anonymously]

Also: Give a Dog a Bone (Not!)–FDA warns of dangers of feeding bones to dogs http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm208365.htm?s_cid=w_c_PetHealth_cont_001
http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?s=bones excerpt below:

1.Broken teeth. This may call for expensive veterinary dentistry.
2.Mouth or tongue injuries. These can be very bloody and messy and may require a trip to see your veterinarian.
3.Bone gets looped around your dog’s lower jaw. This can be frightening or painful for your dog and potentially costly to you, as it usually means a trip to see your veterinarian.
4.Bone gets stuck in esophagus, the tube that food travels through to reach the stomach. Your dog may gag, trying to bring the bone back up, and will need to see your veterinarian.
5.Bone gets stuck in windpipe. This may happen if your dog accidentally inhales a small enough piece of bone. This is an emergency because your dog will have trouble breathing. Get your pet to your veterinarian immediately!
6.Bone gets stuck in stomach. It went down just fine, but the bone may be too big to pass out of the stomach and into the intestines. Depending on the bone’s size, your dog may need surgery or upper gastrointestinal endoscopy, a procedure in which your veterinarian uses a long tube with a built-in camera and grabbing tools to try to remove the stuck bone from the stomach.
7.Bone gets stuck in intestines and causes a blockage. It may be time for surgery.
8.Constipation due to bone fragments. Your dog may have a hard time passing the bone fragments because they’re very sharp and they scrape the inside of the large intestine or rectum as they move along. This causes severe pain and may require a visit to your veterinarian.
9.Severe bleeding from the rectum. This is very messy and can be dangerous. It’s time for a trip to see your veterinarian.
10.Peritonitis. This nasty, difficult-to-treat bacterial infection of the abdomen is caused when bone fragments poke holes in your dog’s stomach or intestines. Your dog needs an emergency visit to your veterinarian because peritonitis can kill your dog.

[alexis w]

thank you for the information, that is what i had read originally and was worried about, but my vet and the person that i had talked to that had the experience both said it was ok so its kind of a toss up i guess as to what to go with. I might steer away from the bones just to be on the safe side and stick with my egg shells for the calcium(i have chickens so egg shells are in abundance)

[anonymously]

Best of luck. I tend to lean toward science based veterinary medicine.
I hope you will continue to post here, maybe we can all learn from each other.

PS: I understand why you prefer a homemade diet. I use a quality kibble as a base only. Canned food just doesn’t smell or look right to me. Just received a bag of Orijen from chewy.com that I ordered, I have to use up something else before I try it, but I am already impressed, the bag was air vacuumed…

[alexis w]

for me the homemade food comes out cheaper than the high end kibble and she just wouldnt eat the bag of high end kibble that i bought and i dont have the money to play around with different brands, so homemade it is. i spend about $40-$50 a month and thats getting organic.

[anonymously]

It’s funny, because I am a vegetarian. But I am sure the people at the local market think I am a meat eater because I always buy chicken, ground turkey, lean meat from the reduced price section…..no problems yet, if it’s organic all the better. I freeze it first too. But I cook it up, the raw thing didn’t work out for my dogs. Actually I thought it was gross.
They do enjoy scrambled egg here and there….I won’t eat it though.

[anonymously]

http://www.homeovet.net/dynamic/php/downloads/dog-c8470f2c75dbe4b683205c3919ee2310/dog_diet_complete.pdf

I don’t know if this link will work, but if it does, you may find the information helpful.

[InkedMarie]

I’ll repeat my question: for the regulars, do homecooked need bone in it?
For Alexis: dogs need calcium. A raw meaty bone, unless they consume the bone, isn’t going to do it.

I think your diets are not balanced….if they are not, you’ve got a blog and people may think they are. Hoping someone who knows will answer.

[Bobby dog]

Hi InkedMarie:
I use Balance IT Carnivore Blend for my home cooked meals. Other than the fresh foods required for the recipe the only other thing I add is Carnivore Blend to make it a balanced meal. I have read some home cooked recipes that call for calcium carbonate, calcium phosphate, bone meal, or crushed egg shells, but not whole bones as the calcium supplement. Maybe someone else has more info.

[Debbie J]

Where do you get the bone meal?

[Debbie J]

I do not give bones. I had previously given antlers and my baby almost had a blockage

Will try bone meal or ground egg shells

[Bobby dog]

Hello Debbie J:
I have never used bone meal so I don’t know where you would find it.

[theBCnut]

Hi Marie

Dogs eating home cooked meals have the same requirements for calcium that raw fed dogs have. Obviously, you don’t want to give cooked bones, so the calcium has to be raw bones or come from other sources.

[Cannoli]

Home cooked meals require calcium just like raw meals.

Besides bones and eggshells you can get calcium from seaweed. I prefer the calcium from seaweed because in addition to calcium seaweed also gives you the following minerals:

Magnesium
Sulfur
Potassium
Phosphorus
Sodium
Zinc
Iodine
Selenium

• This reply was modified 10 years, 5 months ago by Cannoli.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 5 months ago by Cannoli.

[alexis w]

to the person who said my foods are not balanced, that is why i recommend a supplement with each recipe, and i know dogs need calcium, i use ground egg shells like stated previously. the raw meaty bones would be an add on.

[alexis w]

thanks for the seaweed comment, i will have to look into that, the supplement i use has Norwegian Kelp in it, is that the same? just curious because it also has a calcium supplement in it.

[Debbie J]

Seaweed

Yes, that would be perfect for our dogs

What type would you suggest?

Thank you.

[Cannoli]

Animal essentials I highly recommend. Many holistic vets recommend it because:

“The Product is harvested from the seabeds off the southwest coast of Ireland, among the cleanest and purest waters in the world. The species is the small, red seaweed Lithothamnium, which contains a variety of essential nutrients such as calcium, magnesium, boron and zinc.

Each batch is tested according to FDA-approved standards for heavy metals and other contaminants.”

It’s not from China!

You can buy it on Amazon

• This reply was modified 10 years, 5 months ago by Cannoli.

[Cannoli]

Kelp is a type of seaweed. The bottle should tell you how much calcium is available per teaspoon of serving if not you need to google it

[Cannoli]

In regards to raw bones I am too lazy to teach my dog how to chew them so I just use a blender and do a fine ground either using small raw pork rib meat bones, raw chicken feet, and recently I added raw duck necks.

So no concern for blockage or death

• This reply was modified 10 years, 5 months ago by Cannoli.

[Debbie J]

I can tell you all love your dogs very much

Penny is everything to me

[anonymously]

“In regards to raw bones I am too lazy to teach my dog how to chew them so I just use a blender and do a fine ground either using small raw pork rib meat bones, raw chicken feet, and recently I added raw duck necks”.

“So no concern for blockage or death”

Ground up raw bone is what caused my dog to have a blockage (x2) I saw the x-rays, looked like gravel in the stomach and colon, it hardened and caused pain and discomfort for several days, Just lucky surgery wasn’t needed. I gave my meat grinder to the Goodwill.

“You also changed the list of dangers in the report from the original:”

Incorrect, I listed the source of what I posted right above it:

Also: Give a Dog a Bone (Not!)–FDA warns of dangers of feeding bones to dogs http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm208365.htm?s_cid=w_c_PetHealth_cont_001
http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?s=bones excerpt below:

1.Broken teeth. This may call for expensive veterinary dentistry.
2.Mouth or tongue injuries. These can be very bloody and messy and may require a trip to see your veterinarian.
3.Bone gets looped around your dog’s lower jaw. This can be frightening or painful for your dog and potentially costly to you, as it usually means a trip to see your veterinarian.
4.Bone gets stuck in esophagus, the tube that food travels through to reach the stomach. Your dog may gag, trying to bring the bone back up, and will need to see your veterinarian.
5.Bone gets stuck in windpipe. This may happen if your dog accidentally inhales a small enough piece of bone. This is an emergency because your dog will have trouble breathing. Get your pet to your veterinarian immediately!
6.Bone gets stuck in stomach. It went down just fine, but the bone may be too big to pass out of the stomach and into the intestines. Depending on the bone’s size, your dog may need surgery or upper gastrointestinal endoscopy, a procedure in which your veterinarian uses a long tube with a built-in camera and grabbing tools to try to remove the stuck bone from the stomach.
7.Bone gets stuck in intestines and causes a blockage. It may be time for surgery.
8.Constipation due to bone fragments. Your dog may have a hard time passing the bone fragments because they’re very sharp and they scrape the inside of the large intestine or rectum as they move along. This causes severe pain and may require a visit to your veterinarian.
9.Severe bleeding from the rectum. This is very messy and can be dangerous. It’s time for a trip to see your veterinarian.
10.Peritonitis. This nasty, difficult-to-treat bacterial infection of the abdomen is caused when bone fragments poke holes in your dog’s stomach or intestines. Your dog needs an emergency visit to your veterinarian because peritonitis can kill your dog.

[anonymously]

I provided a link to the material I posted directly preceding it, I also provided a link to the FDA report.

You are free to interpret both the article or blog however you like, just as any one of us reading them can.
I chose to believe they meant the information included “all bones”
http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm208365.htm?s_cid=w_c_PetHealth_cont_001

This is a link to the material I posted:
http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?s=bones excerpt below:
“The Food and Drug Administration issue a warning about feeding bones to dogs recently. Just like feeding milk to cats (which also isn’t a very good idea), giving bones to dogs is a cultural cliché that we learn about as children. Bones are often the symbol for all things canine. Unfortunately, the idea that they are a fun and healthy part of the domestic dog’s diet is a myth. Eating bones can result in all sorts of medical problems, some minor and some serious. The FDA warning lists some of the more important:”

[InkedMarie]

thanks, BCNut.

[alexis w]

thank you all for your replies, this has been very informative, it is very clear that we all have very distinct points of views on what is right and wrong concerning our dogs, especially concerning bones and that we all love our dogs very much.

[pugmomsandy]

Have you done any calculations of nutrients on the recipes? Do they meet AAFCO or NRC standards?

[alexis w]

i have, with the supplement they do, they are very close without it but there are a few vitamins that are lacking. i haven’t been doing this for very long and am still tweaking everything and as i get better at it the recipes will be more complete on their own and the supplement will be less and less necessary. they meet the standards for the amino acids and about 75% of the vitamins and the rest are covered with the supplement. I use this site to get a break down of the nutrients that are in it and then i compare them to the AAFCO standards and then add in what nutrients are added with the supplement. I was using the Dinovite supplement and they have a recipe that they recommend to use with it that is just ground beef, rice and eggs which seemed really unbalanced to me so I started coming up with my own and switched to Nupro which has been around a lot longer and has way better reviews from people that have been doing homemade food for years as well as from vets I have talked to. Here is the site I use to get the nutrient breakdown: http://nutritiondata.self.com/mynd/myrecipes/welcome?returnto=/mynd/myrecipes/edit-recipe/3791809&autosave=form.info.autosave

[alexis w]

You can put in your recipe and break it down into how many servings it should make and it will tell you how many calories and what vitamins, minerals and amino acids are in it as well as the percentage of fat,carbs and protein in it. its really cool

[anonymously]

Interesting……PetMd.com also printed the elongated version of the FDA warning. Read the comments too, for a variety of opinions. Hope this helps.
http://www.petmd.com/blogs/nutritionnuggets/jcoates/2012/mar/dogs_bones_dangerous_combination-13528#

[Shawna]

It is known in human circles that poor nutrition can lead to poor dental health. I would assume this holds true with dogs too and that dogs raised on less than desirable diets might have teeth that are more brittle and likely to break. If this is the case, the blame of the problem is being misplaced however. Chewing of bones is not the problem but rather the poor quality diet fed during growth should be blamed. Could, of course, be nutrition during development as well. LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of dogs chew on “appropriate” bones without losing and cracking teeth however femurs and other weight bearing bones are not recommended.

[alexis w]

thanks for that information @Shawna and @ZoeC ! that does make me feel better about giving my Callie the raw bones. On a different topic, I just was given some information that worries me considering I use kale in a lot of my homemade dog food recipes, https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/human-foods-to-avoid-feeding-to-your-dog/
a close friend of mine was looking out for me and let me know about this, I looked into it further and found it to be accurate information. I am currently in the process of modifying all of my dog food recipes to reflect this new information.

[anonymously]

From the same site you consider to be a reputable source: https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/frozen-carrots-as-a-doggie-chew-treat/
Excerpt below, click on link above to see full article:
“Did you know that large frozen carrots make excellent, edible dog chew treats? As do semi-frozen sweet potatoes or many other large, frozen vegetables. The trick is to make them large enough to prevent choking (don’t use baby carrots), and be sure to wash them before freezing. These healthy, edible goodies are a safe choice compared to Thanksgiving poultry bones which can splinter and cause serious damage if ingested”.

“Also at risk are your dog’s teeth. Angell Dentistry’s Dr. Bill Rosenblad warns against bones, “Bones can easily fracture a dog’s tooth, and when they do, it’s usually the most important chewing teeth (upper 4th pre-molar). I’ve had to pull many fractured teeth as a result of these.” Dr. Rosenblad goes on to say, “Dogs don’t show signs of having a fractured tooth or abscess in the way that humans do, and this can lead to tooth loss and more serious infections impacting the whole body.” Make sure your veterinarian gives your dog a good oral exam during annual check ups to check for fractured teeth or abscesses”.
About the author
Dr. Rosenblad :https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/meet-the-dentistry-team/
Another good article by him: https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/tooth-fractures/

• This reply was modified 10 years, 5 months ago by anonymously.

[anonymously]

I posted this before in another thread, thought someone might find it helpful.: /forums/topic/thoughts-on-the-amount-of-fruit-veggies/

Some dogs have a genetic predisposition to develop calcium oxalate bladder stones. Something to keep in mind.

“Foods that are high in oxalates usually include plant-based products, such as vegetables, advises Dr. Ron Hines of 2ndChance.info. Avoid feeding Fido foods high in oxalates if your dog has been diagnosed with calcium oxalate stones in the past because they can contribute to their formation. These include beets, carrots, celery, kale, okra, spinach and collard greens, according to the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center. Organ meats like liver and sardines are also high in oxalates, as are foods that are naturally dangerous to dogs like chocolate, nuts and grapes. Other high-oxalate ingredients include corn and soy, along with the ingredients derived from them, according to Dr. Hines.”
Above is an excerpt from: http://dogcare.dailypuppy.com/foods-cause-oxalate-stones-6238.html

[Cannoli]

“These include beets, carrots, celery, kale, okra, spinach and collard greens, according to the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center. Organ meats like liver and sardines are also high in oxalates,”

I feed my dog fresh baked sardines and liver.

But you blurb is not 100 percent accurate because the exact cause of of calcium oxalate bladder stones is poorly understood at this time.

this disease is not common in all breeds some breeds are more predisposed to it

[Shawna]

Zoe C,

Thought you might find this interesting.
PetMD website, article written by Dr. Ken Tudor
““The solution to pollution is dilution” is the phrase we veterinarians now use to explain how to prevent urinary crystal and stone formation. Time, observation, and studies have shown us that there are no magical diets for solving this problem and that water consumption is key.

The more dilute urine is the less likely minerals can clump together to form crystals and stones, no matter what the urine pH.

Without any recipe manipulations, we have been successful in dissolving kidney and bladder struvite stones and preventing the recurrence of both struvite and oxalate crystals. I attribute the success primarily to the water content of the homemade diets for struvites and the combination of water and ingredient selection for oxalates.

The take home for those of you with cats and dogs that are urine crystal formers is to increase the amount of water in the diet.

That can be achieved easily by adding water to their dry and wet foods.” http://www.petmd.com/blogs/thedailyvet/ken-tudor/2015/november/water-solution-urinary-crystals-pets-33270

[weezerweeks]

Water is the way I got rid of my dogs. I agree with this article. Also if at all possible don’t use dry food.

[alexis w]

so what i am gathering from this is it is ok to use foods with calcium oxalate in it as long as it is in moderation and the dog gets plenty of water to flush the system and also watch the amount of veggies in the food in general, more meat less veggies. so basically i need to cut back on the veggies in my recipes or add some extra meat(which would just make it a larger recipe). since i only use a cup of kale for over a weeks worth of food and only use that recipe once a month it should be fine.

[anonymously]

The dietary recommendations for dogs that have a history of developing bladder stones can differ and it depends on the type of stones they produce, there are a few and some have a genetic component. Also, dogs can have more than one type of stone.
There are prescription diets especially formulated for these conditions.

It is best to discuss these concerns with a veterinarian that has examined your dog and see what he recommends for a specific pet..

PS: Have you tried the search engine here? I know these topics have come up before, maybe you will find something useful.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 5 months ago by anonymously.

[alexis w]

my puppy doesnt actually have any problems with stones i just had gotten the info about the kale and saw that mixed breeds are prone to getting the calcium oxalate stones so i figured i would share the info

[Bev A]

Hi Shawna, I am still dealing with kidney problems with Little Bit but her BUN is sloly coming down. It is now down to 52. Still way to high but the supplements you suggested are slowly working and she acts like she feels much better. Other than people food about the only thing she will eat is Evanger’s canned Buffalo. Her creatinine is slowly creeping up and is at 1.6. They say normal is 0.3-1.4, so I am wondering if there is a supplement I can add to the nitrogen trapping for this as well. She was 14 at the end of November. Thanks so much!

[Shawna]

Hi Bev A,

Glad to hear Little Bit is doing well!!!!!! You mentioned “still dealing with kidney problems” so I just wanted to make sure you know that once the kidneys are chronically damaged they don’t repair themselves.

I’m not aware of anything that brings down creatinine but 1.6 isn’t bad for a dog with chronic kidney disease. Some of the papers I’ve read state that it isn’t until creatinine gets to about 4.0 (and BUN to about 80) that you even start to see symptoms. At times my Audrey’s creatinine was even worse than Little Bits but still had a long, for a dog with KD, and good quality of life.

At 14 she is doing fabulous!!! GREAT JOB!!!

[Shawna]

I couldn’t agree more Zoe C!! 🙂

What did you think of the video?

[Shawna]

alexis w,

I personally wouldn’t be at all concerned with feeding kale to a dog, no matter the breed, that has no prior stone forming history when used in moderation like you are doing. Healthy foods can be problematic when over-consumed (like broccoli for someone with a thyroid issue) but when used in moderation and in rotation, to a dog that does not have a food sensitivity, they are health promoting..

[alexis w]

thank you so much Shawna, i have been tweaking my recipes to have more moderation and variety and think that i am getting closer to a more permanent set of recipes.

[Bev A]

Thanks Shawna, The vet said she wasn’t really concerned about the creatinin but if I can stay on top of it, that is what I will do. Her BUN was 77 when we first started with the supplements. I didn’t tell her I had started them as she was not really wanting to do that. But I knew she would die otherwise. I had been putting her in diapers and no longer have to do that so feel we are getting somewhere. Her teeth are bad, but at 14 and kidney troubles too she really is not wanting to give her anything to put her out to get rid of the teeth. She had started sneezing so much, maybe from infection right at nasal passage. We gave
antibiotics and that worked. Thanks so much for your advice. You are awesome!

[Author]

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