[DogFoodie]

Hi Bryana,

I also have a Golden who started out much the same way as yours. I believe the vaccinations may have contributed to some of his early issues. It was my intention to spread vaccines out and I recall once the vet acted like, “Oops, I actually got a combo vaccine ready.” Of course, I let it go. I wish that I had insisted and that I hadn’t gotten unnecessary vaccines. My Golden had an infection in each ear at just a few months old and was at the vet sick with lethargy and diarrhea. I suspected vaccinosis. Yes, the vet put him on the I/D garbage as well. Since I can’t change that now, I only vaccinate for rabies and I titer for immunity to core vaccines.

As for food, my Golden had digestive issues as a young pup also. It seemed everything gave him diarrhea. Plain canned pumpkin can help firm up loose stool. Goldens are known for having sensitive stomachs and food intolerance / allergy issues. I’ve determined that my Golden has food intolerance issues. He cannot have fish, flax, tomato, chickpeas or lentils. He does better with moderate protein, fat and carbs and a bit lower fiber. I’m not suggesting your Golden has these same intolerance / allergy issues, but it’s my guess he’s intolerant of something and what you’re saying is the end product. You have to figure out what they are, which is the tricky part and it takes a lot of time. Can you compare any ingredients in the food he was eating too see if there are common ingredient that could be the culprit?

Also, your Golden is a large breed puppy that has unique nutritional requirements. You must feed him a controlled level of Calcium. You should also avoid over-exercising him to avoid stressing growing joints and you should also keep him lean while he’s growing.

Here’s a link to another thread in the forum that explains this in more detail, read the first few pages at least: /forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/

On page 36, there is a Google document with a list of foods with appropriate Calcium levels for large and giant breed puppies. It was posted on 10/22/2013, at 4:22 PM by Hound Dog Mom. You should choose a food from this list: /forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/page/36

One food in particular that I might suggest is Nature’s Variety Instinct Limited Ingredient Diet Turkey.

[Dori]

I agree completely with the Nut and Marie. I feed my three dogs, one of which was 15 years old last September high quality, high protein foods. All are grain free. I feed a rotational diet to all three and the proteins in the foods I feed vary. The lowest protein I feed is 38% and the highest is around 54%. I’ve been feeding this way for approx. 3 years now and all my dogs are doing really very well. As a matter of fact, since starting the high protein grain free foods my senior is more puppy like than she’d been in the previous years. She used to sleep a lot, had lost interest in most activities and had lost her spunk. As the Nut stated, seniors need more protein not less. It’s antiquated marketing that would have us believe that puppies, adults, seniors, active, less active, yada yada yada all need their own special diets. Puppies would probably do best on an all life stages food with the exception of large breed puppies which need less calcium with the correct ratio of phos. so as to slow (or not speed up) down their growth rate. I don’t have any large dogs but from all I’ve learned on this site I believe what I’m saying about large breed puppies is correct. I may not be wording it correctly. Anyway, seniors do better and need a higher protein food not less.

[aimee]

Hi Michelle R.

My experience with Natures Logic was /is very different. I considered using the brand as my dog is on a diet of venison. I went to the website and was very concerned by what I found. The company inserted words into quotes which changed the meaning of the quotes, and it appeared that they only had one product analyzed and then posted those results for all the products.

I’ve talked with Mr Freeman on the phone and in person. In person was very telling!! I asked him about inserting words into quotes and he looked up and off into the distance, stroked his chin and in with a long drawn out affect said as best I remember “Oh… did I? Gee… I’ll have to look into that” When I asked about the nutrient analysis all looking the same he looked down and started to chuckle and said well yes, he only had one product analyzed, the chicken formula and then just changed some numbers here and there for the others. I asked him about the low Vit D levels in his diets and he told me to let my dog sit at the windows when the sun came through and my dog would make all the Vit D she needed. When I reminded him that dogs only make insignificant amount of Vit D and it is a requirement of the canine he said something like “Of course they make Vit D, probably when the researchers tested them they had the dogs locked up in a room in the dark without any windows.

Pressing onward, I asked him about the calcium levels in his diets and the effect on growth for large breed pups. He said you can feed a puppy all the calcium you want they would only absorb what they needed. When I reminded him that puppies can’t regulate calcium absorption which is why they need a controlled level in their diet he told me to feed a high calcium food and measure the calcium level in the blood .. it would be fine. YIKES !!! So I tried again and reminded him that yes the calcium level in the blood would be normal despite the effect the diet had on the C- cells and calcitonin levels. He didn’t know what those were. Then he handed me a copy of Dog Naturally magazine to use as a reference instead of the NRC Nutrient requirement of dogs and cats. I found that downright scary!

I asked who formulated his diets and what that person’s education was. He formulates the diets and his degree is in marketing. Suddenly it all became very clear!!! He doesn’t know anything about nutrition because he is in the business of marketing not in the business of nutrition!!

Combing that with him telling me he doesn’t do any type of ingredient testing and he didn’t seem sure of what post production testing was done as far as quality control pretty much lowered the boom of doom onto that company for me.

He is good at what he is educated in .. marketing. Well except for promising things he never follows through on. Like posting correct nutritional information on his website. I think it was last year that he told Dr. Mike he had each individual product analyzed and the data would be posted shortly. But the information really hasn’t changed much…. except for a few numbers here and there.

After talking with Mr. Freeman and evaluating his company I can see why the company isn’t on Editors Choice. The food has a great concept but poor execution in my opinion.

[Douglas E]

I have read this entire thread as well as similar ones. Look, other than broad brush strokes, animal nutrition has been much ignored for the majority of pet-human history. Heck, the same can be said for HUMAN nutrition. Only within the past 40 years has our nutrition become the topic of serious scientific inquiry. This has been a natural development in thought from deeper insights into cellular biology, biochemistry and immunology. The science of human nutrition is quite new.

How then can we expect to understand other species’ specific nutritional needs? We hardly understand the human organism yet in that regard. If human nutritional science is in its’ infancy, canine nutrition is only embryonic. That research it further complicated by gross breed differences, historically poor food quality diets, congenital and/our genetic weaknesses from severely poor breeding, medical thought that simply treats symptoms and a new problem- canine geriatrics.

A dog in the wild would typically have a life expectancy less than half of our pets’. Nutritional deficiency plays a major part in that mortality. And no, an all raw and only carnivorous diet is not what a dog would get in the wild. While dogs are highly adapted to having a majority of the diet be animal proteins, they have a much greater variety. Even from only consuming prey animals, they will eat the contents of those animals’ intestines and stomach(s) which would include “probiotics,” yeasts (naturally occurring intestinal fauna,) and various vagetation such as primitive grains. Those grains would be partially digested, yes, so raw gains would likely be less digestible. Canines would also eat the high fat organ meats, hair, skin and bone. It is important to note that the high need of calcium, as well as other bone minerals, for dogs is well noted these days. It is necessary nutritionally for Canines to occaisionally consume vegetable, or even mineral, matter. Not only must they do so to enable gut function, they must do so for biological need. Not all needs are met by prey. This is why in the absence of adequate herbivorous prey, dogs will suplement by what pet owners would consider pica.

All that being said (now that I have presented myself in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral the Very Model of a Modern Major General, ) the answers are not simple. But the guidelines are.

1. Use common sense, canine nutrition is imperfect at best
2. Do not presume to be an expert, or that human remedy necessarily applies
3. Do not rely on diet to cure medical conditions that may really be microbial or parastic infections, disease or biological defecit aside from nutrition
4. Realize that isolating an immunological response, whether from allergic reaction or not, is a difficult and time consuming process
5. Use keen observation when using any new food source or additive, including veterinarian recommended treatments. Don’t simply go with the flow thinking that treatment course is the fix-it for sure (OK, preaching to the choir I think there…)
6. Each dog is as different biologically as we are. If it does improve health in some, it may not in others or it may actually be detrimental
7. A business, or product, that is intentionally or negligently harmful will not survive. Caveat Emptor
8. etc. etc. etc…

Here’s hoping great health to all you and all your furry families

D

[Nelson P]

Hi everyone,
It’s the first time I post on this thread but have been learning a lot from reading it (specially from HDM). So, first of all thanks! Now, hopefully you guys don’t mind if I ask for a little more help. I have a 3 months old Golden Retriever. I have been feeding him Royal Canin Golden Retriever Junior (recommended by the vet.) but as you all know, it’s not the best choice. I want to do better. Unfortunately I don’t have the time or money to feed him a proper raw meal. Not now, maybe in the future (who knows). Good Canned is also very expensive (maybe I can add it as a topper sometimes). So I have to stick with kibble. Would like to choose from HDM list but I live in Europe (Portugal) and we don’t have those brands here (stores or online) and buy it from a international online store would also be too expensive for the shipping. I had to look for other brands and try to stick with the guidelines I learn here. As sad as it may look I couldn’t find too many brands to choose from (there are plenty but not that good). Basically I found 2 options: Orijen/Acana large breed puppy (I know it’s borderline with the calcium levels) or Naturea. Naturea is a portuguese brand but they produce there food in a UK factory tucked into a rural area (as they stated in their website). They have the same Biologically Appropriate concept that Champions have. It’s possible none of you ever heard about this brand (I too didn’t know them until yesterday). I don’t know if I can post the website here for you guys to help me analyse their food so I’ll copy/past their Technical Information:

Composition:
Chicken (includes Fresh Deboned Chicken and Chicken Meal), Sweet Potato, Egg Powder,
Chicken Fat, Potato Protein, Lucerne, Linseed, Chicken Gravy, Salmon Oil, Minerals,
Vitamins, Glucosamine, Methylsulfonylmethane, Chondroitin Sulphate, Apple, Carrot,
Tomato, Spinach, Psyllium, Rosehips, Camomile, Burdock Root, Peppermint, Marigold,
Seaweed, Cranberry, Dandelion, Fructooligosaccharides, Aniseed, Fenugreek, Yucca
Schidigera Extract, Thyme, Marjoram, Oregano, Parsley, Sage.

Animal Ingredients (63%):
Chicken Meal (low ash) 31.17%
Fresh Deboned Chicken 13.85%
Egg Powder 8.22%
Chicken Fat 7.36%
Chicken Gravy 1.73%
Salmon Oil 0.86%

Typical Analysis:
Crude Protein 32%
Crude Fat 21%
Crude Fibre 3%
Moisture 8.5%
Carbohydrates 27.5%
Crude Ash 8%
Metabolisable Energy 387 kCal/100g
Calcium 1.21%
Phosphorus 1.04%

Coat, cardio & Joints:
Linoleic Acid (Omega 6) 3.09%
Linolenic Acid (Omega 3) 1.07%
Glucosamine 889 mg/kg
Chondroitin 625 mg/kg
Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM) 889 mg/kg

Other Vitamins, Amnio Acids & Minerals:
Vitamin A 25730 IU/kg
Vitamin D3 1730 IU/kg
Vitamin E (as alpha-tocopherol acetate) 231 IU/kg
Vitamin B1 10 mg/kg
Vitamin B2 23 mg/kg
Vitamin B6 10 mg/kg
Vitamin B12 127 mcg/kg
Biotin 323 mcg/kg
Folic acid 1.73 mg/kg
Niacin 35 mg/kg
Choline Chloride 240 mg/kg
Pantothenate 20 mg/kg
Potassium 1.04%
Sodium 0.36%
Chloride 0.63%
Magnesium 0.1%
Zinc (as zinc sulphate monohydrate) 285 mg/kg
Zinc (as chelate of amino acids hydrate) 342 mg/kg
Copper (as cupric sulphate monohydrate) 41 mg/kg
Copper (as cupric chelate of amino acids hydrate) 51 mg/kg
Manganese (as manganous sulphate monohydrate) 112 mg/kg
Iron (as ferrous sulphate monohydrate) 309 mg/kg
Iron (as ferrous chelate of amino acids hydrate) 21 mg/kg
Iodine (as calcium iodate anhydrous) 1.58 mg/kg
Selenium (as sodium selenite) 0.51 mg/kg

Sorry for the long text. I need to decide on a food sooner than later to start the transition. In the future I would like to rotate different brands (If I can find good ones), and add toppers as suggested here. But for now I really have to decide. Origin, Naturea or other world available brand? Can you help me? So afraid to make the wrong choice. Any other advice on dog/puppy health would be great 🙂

P.S. As for the toppers, besides eggs, tinned sardines, plain yogurt, kefir, cottage cheese, and veggies what can I add without throwing off the balance?

[theBCnut]

Here’s Hound Dog Mom’s latest list of safe foods
https://docs.google.com/viewer?srcid=0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk&pid=explorer&efh=false&a=v
You may have to join google docs, but that is an easy sign up and well worth it.

I would definitely look at calcium level as the reason for her issues. If you can get raw green tripe locally, you can add that to what you are feeding th lower the calcium level. But if the food you are feeding doesn’t have a legal AAFCO regs label, I would wonder what else it’s missing.

[Darren S]

HDM, I noticed that this site is rating Orijen Puppy large breed a “5” and Orijen has posted in its labeling the following:
Calcium Content Analysis
Orijen Puppy Large contains 1.29% calcium, 1.05% phosphorus and 3800 calories1 per kilogram of dog food.
This results in a calcium-to-phosphorus ratio of 1.23 to 1, which confirms this particular metric meets AAFCO nutrient profiles2 for puppies.
More importantly, the data reports an energy-weighted nutrient content of 3.4 grams of calcium for every 1000 calories as fed.
So, according to current guidelines3, Orijen Puppy Large appears to be suitable for all puppies — including those of larger breeds.

Does this mean that you would now accept Orijen as an appropriate “large breed” puppy food?
Thank you.

[theBCnut]

Tripette is a canned food for supplemental feeding only, which means it should not be your dogs only source of nutrition because it isn’t balanced. But it is balanced for calcium and phosphorus, and low in both, which is what is important for giant breeds. Its tripe, so it smells awful, but dogs LOVE it.

[Hildie V]

Hi Susan they do sound alike 🙂

She does best on food I make myself. Also, NRG raw dehydrated, but unfortunately she’s developed a wheat allergy in these wheat germ in NRG so I can’t use anymore.

I’m going to try a ground turkey, beef liver, beef heart, broccoli, zucchini, carrots, and potato next. I supplement with eggshell calcium because I don’t feed her bones. I also give Simon oil, vitamin E, digestive enzymes, probiotic, and a multivitamin and mineral specifically designed for dogs by a holistic vet.

I would suppose just as in humans certain things trigger acid reflux but it can be different in every person and also in every dog. I suppose there’s also an underlying reason why acid reflex is there to start with which is what I really want to get to the bottom of. That is, assuming she actually does have acid reflux and this isn’t something to do with something else because no one seems to know 🙂

I think finding foods that work for the dog is specific to each dog and it’s trial and error. Kibble can be a lot harder for them to break down than fresh food. Fresh food is highly digestible, and usually easier to digest. I would not touch a vet prescribed food with a 10 foot pole… But that’s not saying it doesn’t work for some people and their dogs, is just disgusting to me 🙂

If you want to make your own homemade food but are scared that you might not do it right you can buy a cookbook called Hillary’s Complete and Balanced and you can buy her supplements to go with it and then follow her recipes for homemade food. Her cookbook is only available through veterinarian offices in Canada and off her website in the USA. My girl did great on her venison and potato limited ingredient diet for five months until I couldn’t find the venison anymore at an affordable price :-). That is when I switched her to NRG…

Nothing I have done is a fix for sure, my dog is still having problems, and I like reading about what other people do to try and help myself as well 🙂

[Genevieve K]

How many times are you feeding her? Puppies need to have 3 meals a day. (I do think it’s adorable that she carries her food bowl around.) Using the caloric information on the packaging, I calculated the ideal daily feeding schedule and use that as a guide (it’s been close to the suggested servings). If you’re feeding multiple foods, I recommend doing this to ensure she’s getting what she needs. Perhaps you could do this with the different foods that you’re feeding.

In addition to a Boerboel puppy, we have two other large breed dogs. I do feed the puppy far more than I feed the adults because I know he needs the additional nutrition and the extra calories to support his quickly growing body. I keep a close eye on his body shape to ensure he’s not getting over-fed.

Having fought a weight loss battle with my Ridgeback, it’s important to keep an eye on his waist. I’m fine with him carrying a little bit more weight because I know he will use that for growth and energy but it’s important to ensure he doesn’t cross the line into “fat.”

Because of the our Boerboel puppy’s multiple allergies (arg!), we decided to use Annamaet’s Aqualuk and are now feeding it to all three dogs. It’s is appropriate for large breeds in all life stages and is listed on HDM’s list of recommended large breed dog food. The Calcium/Fat percentages are excellent and, personally, I was drawn to its EU certification which requires does not allow the 4 D’s (diseased, dying, disabled, and dead) animals.

Large dogs usually have a shorter life span and the additional cost is worth it to ensure my family is eating a very healthy food which, hopefully, will extend their life span. One wonderful side effect is that my Ridgeback’s farts, known to literally clear a room, have significantly decreased in frequency and are not nearly as foul!

No, is not an inexpensive food but we were previously feeding a different, high quality 4 star food that was only a bit less than Annamaet. There are very few retail locations that carry it so I order it online from Wag.com but there are other sites that carry it. The Annamaet website has a list of retailers – online and brick & mortar shops.

Long story short, I’d feed her as much as she wants – to a point. For training purposes (and your sanity), maintain a feeding schedule so that she doesn’t learn that she can manipulate you. The last thing you want is a dog who know that when she drops her bowl at your feet, she gets food. They’re slick little critters!

[Kathy H]

I am starting my dog on a homemade cooked diet. I prepared for her the other day a cooked chicken/turkey with quinoa, baby green peas and a cooked carrot. This is why:
She had bouts of diarrhea and started to vomit after three days. Vet said the dog food is becoming an issue these days. It was a new bag, same dog food I have feed her for years but I have noticed her having this issue (without the vomiting) all this past Summer with every new bag. After a day or two, she would settle out back to normal. This time she did not. I had wondered about it being the dog food but after a week ago my vet confirmed my suspicion. Her bowels checked after the very first meal. 🙂

Tonight I cooked the following for her, what I am needing to know is what I put together tonight, is it a good complete nutrition? She is 16 and in good health. I plan on doing three or four different meal batches (freeze the bulk) each week to feed her a change up in her weekly of meals. I plan on making her a batch of fish (baked flounder) with good calcium source, omegas and fiber in the batch.

Is this a good mix of nutrition for her?

Proteins:
1 lb Laura’s beef 96% fat free
2 scrambled eggs, cooked without oil-along with the shells ground into a powder-(calcium)
1/2 cup Greek yogurt for the calcium and the probiotics
Fiber:
1 cup baby peas
1/2 large sweet potato
1 cup cooked white rice (all I have in pantry right now)
1 TBLSP Dried homemade mix of rainbow chard/kale, organic–high in vitamins A, K, and C, as well as fibre and protein
1 TBSP Ground flax seed–high in good omega’s

I feed her a meal of this tonight and she licked her bowl all over the kitchen floor, trying her best to make sure she didn’t miss a drip in her bowl, LOL!

Just want to know if this will be a good recipe to make for her. I am also going to give her some liver for treats during the week, not a lot, and some other things to keep her calcium and lot of vitamins up, not to miss anything.

Sorry for the book! 🙂

[Bobby dog]

Hi Laura:
I like and regularly feed Wellness kibbles/canned and Holistic canned to both my dog and cats. I haven’t tried the Holistic kibbles, but they are on my list to try.

I would look into feeding different proteins and carbs, but more importantly I would begin keeping a list of all the proteins and carbs in his diet. IMO if it is a food allergy or sensitivity saving the ingredient lists from each food (including treats and canned foods) and comparing these lists in order to find the offending ingredient(s) is the best approach; it is also time consuming.

There are quite a few fish based kibbles. I found three that fall under my specific criterion without potatoes of any kind, but two of them have high calcium and phosphorous ratios and of these two one has low nutrient levels. I decided not to consider them after looking at their websites and reading comments about the companies on DFA. The third is Blackwood Large Breed Adult Dog Whitefish Meal & Oatmeal Recipe, however it also includes duck meal.

This list may or may not be what you are looking for; none contain salmon, most contain sweet potatoes, some have flax seed, and some have fish you haven’t fed. Review the recipes carefully, they may include ingredients that you are trying to avoid:

• Blackwood Large Breed Adult Dog Whitefish Meal & Oatmeal Recipe – potato free, includes duck meal
• Pioneer Naturals Grain Free Whitefish
• by Nature Ocean Whitefish & Green Peas Recipe
• Wellness Complete Health Adult Whitefish & Sweet Potato
• Wild Calling Whitefish recipe

Here’s a link to carb values for Wellness kibbles:
/forums/topic/carb-values-of-wellness-kibble/#post-54314

Here’s some links to articles about allergies/food sensitivities in dogs:
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/grain-free-dog-foods-solving-yeast-and-skin-issues/
http://pets.webmd.com/dogs/guide/caring-for-a-dog-that-has-food-allergies
http://vetmed.tamu.edu/news/pet-talk/itchy-dogs-%E2%80%93-is-food-the-problem#.VDbE_LnQOpo
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=2499

[Bobby dog]

Hi Laura B:
Can your dog have sweet potato? I have been looking at fish based kibble that use smaller species fish and there are a few that use sweet potato as the carb. There is one I found that is potato free, but the calcium/phosphorous ratio is high and the nutrient levels are low. After reading comments about the company on DFA I decided to pass on it.

I read your comment about different proteins, you might want to consider trying a protein that your dog has not had before. I believe rotational feeding is healthier, but more importantly your dog will always have something he can do well on if/when a company changes or discontinues a food.

[Dori]

Glad to hear you like them BC. I’ve recently added the Beef, Tripe and Fish to the girls rotation. Hubby is quite the squeamish one when it comes to feeding raw so this is as close as I can get if he has to feed a meal because I’ve dared to not be home at the girl’s meal time. I wish they didn’t have the freeze dried potato in their ingredients but as you know I feed rotational diet with every meal it really won’t be a big deal. I don’t like to feed Hannah with anything that has white potatoes because of her touch of arthritis.

cindy q. I believe that some of us have stated (not just me) that for an adult or senior dog this is a great food to feed in a rotational diet. Also most of the regulars on this site feed rotational diets so that what they may miss in one meal (if, indeed, that is the case with any food you may feed) they will pick it up in the next meal. Every single meal does not have to be “complete and balanced”. Complete and Balanced has to be met over a period of a week. If you feed a rotation diet then you really should not have any problems when feeding quality foods. If you’ve followed any of my posts on the DFA site I’m a firm believer in both raw and rotational feeding. My three dogs are my proof (for me) that this is the best diet for them.

I’ve never owned a large dog so have never had to research large puppy requirements in a dog food. I believe it has to do with the calcium in a food so as to not have their bones growing quicker than they should. Others would be knowledgeable in that area. I believe this food would also be fine for puppies of medium, small and toy dogs. I would have no issue feeding puppies this food but, again, I don’t feed any food solely.

[Nancy C]

Cyndi:
First your dog is beautiful! I love the way he looks right into the picture! And with seeming purpose! 🙂 I know he’s a sweet one.

Thank you for your post also. You all are really helping me. My GSD was gone for three months for training and while he was gone I decided on RAW. Like you, I read the major books, watched Becker’s videos, took notes, read on line, and my binder is jammed. He had all those troubles on Origen and Acana and i just decided kibble was not worth it.

I will brush his teeth in addition to doing the bones. Thank you for that info. Have some HARE TODAY turkey necks frozen now but he is not YET on raw. I am working with a Homeopathic Vet who is wonderful and who has recommended Big Dog Natural although DFA people did not feel good about what BDN not coming forth with info re GA. I asked BDN about it and they said they could not tell their “secret” (which she inferred had to do with the fermentation of the veggies and the air drying process). The Homeopath vet feeds BDN to his 6 dogs – several are Great Danes – and he loves the food and the company. He also feeds Darwins. He has suggested that I go cold turkey when I transition the GSD using chicken and the turkey formulas (BDN) to begin with for several weeks. One Protein. (THat is what Tracy at HARE TODAY also suggested.) Once he’s doing great on that I will pull out the Turkey necks. After that I think I can start veering out a little. Tracy at HARE TODAY emailed me to take my time and NOT PUSH IT — that getting in a hurry will mess up his digestion. She’s SELLING RAW and TOLD ME TO SLOW DOWN! (That’s a sign of a good person!)

The woman who 1/2 owns Ziwipeak has two labs and she said she feeds them Ziwi at breakfast everyday and then gives them a raw very meaty bone for supper at night. I never got into Ziwipeak myself but it was interesting to hear that she does that. Says they are a picture of health.

Now it appears I must find out about CALCIUM so I do not overdo it. Any references about that?
Thank you again for your input. This is such a great site and I have met wonderful people.
With Gratitude,
Nancy C.

[aimee]

Hi Robert M,

From their website they allow Calcium levels up to 1.7% in their puppy diet. This is equivalent to about 5 grams Ca/1000 kcals. Most veterinary nutritionists recommend that calcium for large breed growth should be about 3 grams/1000kcals. The NRC places the safe upper limit for Ca at 4.5 grams/1000kcals, which this diet exceeds.

It is not a food I’d personally feed to my large breed puppy. Personally, I look for a diet with a Ca less than 3.5 grams/1000kcals and a diet that has passed AAFCO feeding trials.

I raised my lab on Purina Pro Plan large breed puppy and couldn’t be happier with the results. Most times when I mention that I raised my pup on Pro Plan someone chimes in about how awful the food is.: )

It really is a matter of what you hold important to you when judging a dog food. I want to see that the company has veterinary nutritionists on staff and has raised large breed pups on the diet while monitoring growth and skeletal development. Purina went far and beyond the min AAFCO requirements for a feeding trial and I was impressed with the amount and type of monitoring the company did in regards to monitoring the growth and development of the Lab pups involved in the trial.

I’ve read extensively on nutrition and the one common factor I find is that nutritionists state you can not tell the quality of a food by looking at an ingredient list. The ingredient list of Pro Plan doesn’t look “real pretty” but since the ingredient list is of less importance to me than other criteria when I judge a food I didn’t hesitate to use it.

[crazy4cats]

Hi Karen G-
Congrats on the new pup! What kind of dog is it? Did you see the recommended dry foods for large breed puppy spreadsheet that is posted on the large breed thread on this forum? I think it is on about page 33 of that thread. It lists both with and without grains kibble. The main thing objective is to keep calcium under 3.5 g per 1,000 kcal. Also, the food should be labeled for puppies (growth) or all life stages. It does not necessary for it to specifically say for large breed pups. There is no recognized standard for large breed as far as food labels go.
Nutrisource large breed pup with grains is listed and also Wellness Core puppy grain free is on the list. There are several others as well. I was trying to mention more well known brands.
Keep your pups growth slow and steady. Do not over exercise or run him/her. I feed my 3 year old big dogs Victor. Both The Victor Select chicken and rice and lamb and rice would also be good options for your new pup! Hip, knee and elbow problems are so prevalent with big dogs. We need to do what we can to try to prevent them. Have fun with your pup!

[Cyndi]

Here is the ingredient list for Good Friends dog food:
Wheat middlings, ground yellow corn, soybean meal, meat and bone meal, animal fat, salt, calcium carbonate, choline chloride, zinc sulfate, vitamin E supplement, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, niacin, copper sulfate, vitamin A supplement, biotin, managanous oxide, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, vitamin B12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, menadione sodium bisulfate coplex, riboflavin supplement, sodium selenite, calcium lodate, folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement, cobalt carbonate.

Crude protein: %18 Crude fat: %6 Crude Fiber: %6 Moisture: %12

Definitely NOT a good dog food!!

[Ramona F]

Hi I read a post from HDM that compared Horizon Puppy with Orijen LB Puppy and HDM preferred Orijen. I read another post that said all Orijen foods were too high in calcium. We have fed Now, Horizon and now Orijen and my lab puppy is just shy of 7 months
I have seen the list of HDM foods put not all are available in small towns all hough we have 4 retailers of upscale quality food. Dog didnt like Horizon or maybe we overfed because the instructions on the label are hard to decipher and seem much lower volume of food for age size and weight of puppy.
Whats the verdict on Orijen Large breed food? anyone?
Thanks for this awesome site

[crazy4cats]

Hi Brenda E-
Well, sounds like a stressful situation. Have you tried feeding small meals of boiled chicken or burger with rice and pumpkin to rest and calm down his intestines? Then slowly start adding kibble back in. My pups had diarrhea when we got them, but they did have parasites. Both Giardia and Coccidia. Hopefully your vet sent a fecal to the lab to test specifically for these. Yes, a probiotic would be good to try. I use Vetri-pro BD by Vetri-Science. I order it from either Amazon.com or healthy pets.com. It contains probiotics, digestive enzymes and some supplements that help soothe the intestines.
Your large breed pup needs a puppy or all life stages food that is appropriate for his size. It is recommended to keep the calcium levels down for the growing stage for large breeds. There is more information and a spreadsheet of recommended foods created by Hound Dog Mom on the large breed thread of this forum.
You will need to keep his growth slow and steady to avoid joint issues. Also limited exercise is important.
Check out http://www.dogaware.com for a lot of information on digestive orders. Good luck!

[Genevieve K]

After wandering around for a few hours, comparing infredients/nutrition info, I grabbed a bag of the Instinct Grain Free Rabbit. It has an extremely high fat content of 20% so it wouldn’t surprise me if that’s why some dogs experience loose stool. The protein and calcium content were in line and carbs were low. I’ll add pumpkin if he poops out soft-serve.

He had the rabbit kibble for dinner tonight with no toppers. (I do add water to any kibble I feed.) This food has enough fat without coconut oil. I’m probably imagining this but, since dinner, he hasn’t been scratching – at all. He chewed at his front legs for a few minutes but…no frenzied scratching.

I refuse to believe this is actually the solution because it’s (1) the first test run and (2) it’d be too good to be true. However, he’s not scratching and is now sleeping belly up – a position dogs sleep in only when they feel comfortable and safe. I’ve never seen him sleep like this.

I look forward to seeing the changes over the next few days. Thanks so much for your input!!

[Genevieve K]

I want to go completely grain-free. I have a few specialty stores around that carry the higher-end foods. Petsmart now carries Wellness but does Wellness make a grain-free puppy food? I hesitate to deviate from the Large Breed Puppy foods because I know, as a puppy, he has different needs than an adult. Yes, there are All Life Stages formulas but I’m not confident those would meet his nutritional needs.

We’ve been giving him coconut oil this week. He LOVES it. I’m also hitting the butcher today and hoping they have some rabbit – have them grind one up, bones and all. I’ve not fed him raw before but, at this point, I”m desperate. I know I shouldn’t change everything at once because that makes it harder to identify the allergen but if he’s getting mainly meat and veggies with some supplements like coconut oil and maybe some calcium (unsure about that), I’d like to think he’d do ok with more limited ingredients. (OMG, carrots, broccoli and cauliflower are the best treats on earth for my dogs.)

Again, he’s a large breed and I want to make sure he gets what he needs to be healthy and strong as an adult. This makes me so sad, especially when there is so little, yet so much, information (all conflicting) out there on large breed foods and puppy needs.

[milly w]

Vegetarian Dog Food

To most Americans, leading a vegetarian lifestyle is the right way to healthy living. As a result, they feel obliged to extend this sort of lifestyle to their pets. Such beliefs have brought about a wide-scale marketing campaign for vegetarian dog foods.

Depending on your definition of vegetarian, certain ingredients and food types may be incorporated or removed from a vegetarian diet. As a minimum requirement, most meat sources – pork, beef, fish, etc. – are usually removed from the diet. Animal products such as milk and eggs are also usually not incorporated into the diet.

Why do people switch their pet diets to Vegetarian Dog Food?

Most vegetarians believe that vegetarian diets are healthy when compared to the traditional diets, which include animal-source foods. Vegetarians extend this assumption to their pets, which of course is not always true. For example, dogs do not suffer from disorders such as high cholesterol. Therefore, cutting your dog’s meat intake with the intention of reducing its cholesterol intake does not serve any real health benefit to the dog.

Other folks believe that meat contains contaminated bacteria that may harm their dog. This may be a real and legitimate cause to worry; however, meat products that have been properly canned or dried pose a far lower risk of disease transmission when compared to raw vegetables or fruits.

Some people cut their pet’s meat or animal-source intake with the premise that it causes food allergies. Pets rarely develop food allergies. When it comes to pets, the risk of developing allergies due to protein intake from meat or protein intake from plants is the same. Cutting meat intake rarely helps solve this problem.

The most likely Effects of switching your Dog’s Diet to Vegetarian

The nutritional demands for dogs are very different when compared to those of humans. A perfect vegetarian diet for a human may; therefore, not be suitable for a dog. A vegetarian pet food that meets all the requirements – of the dog species – is very difficult, but possible to develop. However, it becomes even more difficult when you decide to use ingredients that fit a purely vegetarian diet: a vegan diet.

A protein and calcium need of a dog, for example, is much higher when compared to that of a human. Such nutrients are usually derived from animal ingredients.

Of course, it is possible to derive such nutrients – Calcium and protein – from synthetic substitutes; however, the process is much more expensive and far less reliable. The process may prove very effective theoretically, but fail miserably in the “real world”.
Finally, even if the dog eats the vegetarian diet that you serve it, it may not consume it in the proportions that its body requires. Pets enjoy a cookie or a fruit on an occasional basis; however, they may not enjoy consuming vegetarian products for their survival. Therefore, even if you come up with a vegetarian diet that meets all the requirements, your dog may not take in as much as its body needs. Thus, it will suffer nutritional deficiency eventually.

In a concluding remark, vegetarian diets are healthy – to a certain extent. However, they may deprive your dog of certain essential requirements. If you must serve your companion with vegetarian dog food, ensure that it takes it in sufficient quantities, and that it has all the essential nutritional requirements.

[Marlene N]

Hello again!
Well, I agree 100%, there is something specific with the higher Protein content that affects our dogs. As soon as the diarrhea started, we tried the boiled chicken/ rice and then a few attempts to change back over to the Blue Wilderness food. As soon as we started it, it was an immediate diarrhea reaction / gas etc.. This went on for two months. She didn’t gain any weight, and for a 8-9 month old puppy, we were scared. A Petsmart manager suggested eliminating the protein, ie. Chicken and replacing it with a different protein. ie. Ground Beef. Instantly the diarrhea was gone!…and by the following week, we were able to start using the Prescription ID, recommended by our vet. That was fine for a month, until I found Nutro- Large Breed, Puppy, which was equivalent if not exactly at the same levels of Crude Protein, Fat, Fiber, Calcium, Nutrients, etc. We switched her food and everything has been fine.
At 10 months now, she is 52 lbs, and as happy as she should be!

We did try 1 day of a handful of the Blue Wilderness again… and her stool was extremely soft again.. so, yep! it is definitely the food and we are not switching back.

A few things we have learnt from all of this:
-sometimes all of our researching to do what is best for our pets….ie. buying the absolute best dog food on the market, is not always the best for your pet.
-Golden Retrievers have very sensitive stomachs in general… so to help eliminate diarrhea, give them a boiled protein (opposite of what is in their food) and white rice diet is ok, but, sensitive stomach, prescription ID food works well too.
-Sometimes all they may need is just 1-2 tablets of Immodium. Generic Name: loperamide
Safely prescribed by your vet.
-Finding what food works for your pet is a challenge, Thank Goodness Petsmart accepts returns of open bags of dog food!
-Listen to other pet owners with the same type of breed…. that will save you a little aggravation too!

[milly w]

Daily supplements for human beings are commonplace, but what about dog dietary supplements? Just as human beings require food and supplements to be strong and healthy, dogs also require good nutrition. Veterinarians, to complement the diet and maintain good health of your pet, prescribe dog nutritional supplements.

Most commercial dog foods claim to be nutritionally complete but they all provide a one-size-fits-all approach that might not necessarily suit your dog. Different things such as age, illness, pregnancy, energy levels etc can have an effect on the nutritional needs of your pet. Here are some important supplements that your dog can use.

Brewer’s Yeast – The supplement comprises of B vitamins that take care of some of the most important functions of your dog. The most well known benefit of the supplement is its ability to repel fleas. B vitamins can help metabolize carbs, proteins and fats, which in turn can help in weight loss. It also comprises chromium that can help decrease blood cholesterol levels.

MSM (Methyl Sulfonyl Methane) – MSM supplement is helpful in ensuring healthy skin, connective tissues and coat of your dog. It is also known to reduce swelling and pain caused by sprains, strains, arthritis and bursitis.

Calcium, Zinc & Iron – Calcium is good for the blood, nerves and bones of the dogs. Zinc helps promote healthy skin and coat. Iron supplements help promote healthy blood cells. Iron supplements especially formulated for dogs must be administered to pets, as human iron supplements can be poisonous for them.

Probiotic and Prebiotic Supplements – These are required to bring balance in pets when dietary changes, stress, age or prescription medicine causes an imbalance of bacteria in their intestinal tract. To get maximum digestive and health benefits, both the kinds of supplements can be used together.

Sure grow 100 – The product packs in several beneficial nutrients including vitamin A, calcium, vitamin D, phosphorous and is excellent for puppies when they are growing. It is also known to enhance growth of the teeth, muscles and bones in puppies.

Hip and Joint Supplements – Dogs are generally very active and this can take a toll on their joints, hips and other connective tissues. Incorporating these supplements in the diet of your pet can help prevent these disorders. They comprise ingredients that work to repair and protect your dog’s joints and other connective tissues.

Canine nutritional supplements are generally available in solid form and can be included in dog food. Be sure to check with your veterinarian before you pick any nutritional supplement for your pet. While pets suffering from any of the conditions mentioned above might benefit from these supplements, there may be some underlying issues too that need medical attention. While buying supplements, go for trusted brands and take care to follow the dosage instructions as mentioned on the label.

Today, dog owners are increasingly turning to nutritional supplements realizing that most dog foods do not fully meet the energy requirements of their pet. A high quality supplement can do wonders to a dog’s overall health and performance.

[Daria S]

Hello all, Hello HOUND DOG MUM 🙂

Speaking about Ca:P ratios – I’ve just received response from First Mate pet foods according to their actual Ca:P ratios. On their pages and on the internet the figures are really really high (1,9:1 for Pacific Ocean Endurance/Puppy which made it to the HDM list). Here are the figures I received by them:

Pacific Ocean Fish Original 1.44:1
Pacific Ocean Fish Endurance/Puppy 1.50:1
Pacific Ocean Fish Large Breed 1.45:1
Pacific Ocean Fish Weight Control/Senior 1.40:1
Chicken with Blueberries 1.85:1
Australian Lamb 1.78:1

The ratios are lower than shown on their pages BUT still high for any large breed puppy because of too little Phosphorus. It’s a shame, I really liked the company and the food so now I’m thinking about Orijen Puppy Large (new formula since January 2013).

Orijen CS couldn’t give me answer about actual Calcium level and kept saying the same info as on the pages – Ca is between 1,2 – 1,5. The best i got from him is “The minimum calcium and phosphorus contents that are listed on our guaranteed analysis are reflective of the typical content.” Kcal is 3800/kg. So while 1,3 would be acceptable, 1,4 is too much. Now I really don’t know. I have a 3,5mths GR puppy and as everyone here I want the best for him. I like high protein in Orijen and quality ingredients.
Also I heard that Orijen is being too high in iron – I still need to analyse this topic.

Any thoughts here?

• This reply was modified 11 years, 8 months ago by Daria S.

[crazy4cats]

Hi Lance-
Congratulations on the new pup. How exciting, a Great Dane! I don’t know if a probiotic for a puppy is really necessary. But, maybe others will chime in with their opinions. My pups have had digestive issues due to various reasons. So, I have used Vetri-Science soft chews, Total Zymes, and Natur Vet probiotics. Right now I am using Swanson’s Ultra Soil-Based probiotics. Swanson Vitamins is a very reasonably priced web site with many options to check out. The main thing is to buy a probiotic with as many strains as possible. In addition, check out http://www.dogaware.com. It’s a great website with information on many dog related issues, including probiotics.
Have you checked out the large breed puppy thread on this forum. It contains a spreadsheet of food that is appropriate for large breed pups due to needing restricted calcium levels.
Keep his weight down, his growth slow and controlled and limited running and jumping to help his joints healthy. Have fun and good luck!

[Case]

On June 30th, I contacted Earthborn Holistics with the following inquiry:

On Jun 30, 2014, at 5:48 PM, Case and Nicky Lofton wrote:

Hi,

I see other brands that list the % of meat and plant ingredients that are used in their products. I use your food and I’d like this information on your grain free dog foods.

Thanks,
Case

I received the following reply:

Case,

Thank you for your interest in Earthborn Holistic Natural Food for Pets. I do not have this information. I can see if our nutritionist has it available. Some parts of our formula info is proprietary; we don’t want others to figure out how we make our great food. I’ll check to see if this is available.

Cindy Montgomery
VP, Marketing
Midwestern Pet Foods, Inc.
9634 Hedden Road
Evansville, IN 47725
p 812-867-4504, ext. 107
f 812-867-0424
cmontgomery@midwesternpetfoods.com

To which I replied:

Cindy,

The info that I’m seeking is in no way detailed. Many manufacturers print it on their bags. Orijen puppy
food for example is 80% meat ingredients, 20% plant ingredients. There are many other companies that share this info. It doesn’t offer any real insight on the formula.

Thanks for your time,
Case

I never heard anything back so I wrote Cindy again yesterday:

Hi Cindy,

Any word on the percentages?

Here’s a photo of the food that I’m currently feeding to demonstrate that I am an actual customer with a simple inquiry. The Primitive Naturals is for my nine month old APBT, I’d love to feed it to my six month old Great Dane as well, but from what I understand the calcium content is too high, so she gets Meadow Feast.

Thanks again,
Case

I also made the same inquiry on their Facebook page, where my question was basically ignored and then deleted.

Are any of you guys aware of these %s? Is it unreasonable to ask Earthborn for this information?

[DogsAreMyLife]

“Because calcium and phosphorus (macrominerals), are the 2 largest components making up ash in a dog food diet, the total ash (all minerals) should be low.”

Oh! Thank you for that info, I had no idea. Thank you for the other info, as well! 🙂

[losul]

I worded a sentence wrong and just realized, can’t edit again.

Because calcium and phosphorus (macrominerals), are the 2 largest components making up ash in a dog food diet, the total ash (all minerals) should be low.

[losul]

Hi DAML,

I like your choices of foods the Farmina and Annamaet. I also think Wellness would be a solid 3rd choice for your rotation. I was talking to a fellow awhile back on the review boards that worked at a plant producing chicken meal. He said that Wellpet had the most strict and demanding specs of any of their customers and they were very quick to reject a load that didn’t meet those specs, part of those specs would be ash content.

Wellness Core is one of the very few foods that GURANTEES MAX levels for both calcium and phosphorus in their guaranteed analysis. In the original CORE, not more than 2% calcium and not more than 1.4% Phosphorus. Because calcium and phosphorus are the 2 largest components making up ash (the macrominerals)in a dog food diet, the total ash should be low.

This from Amazon, also a chart there if you scroll down;

CORE® formulas have controlled mineral content levels and use high quality, lower ash meats. High-quality meats can cost almost twice as much as lower quality meats and have 50 – 75% lower ash levels.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 9 months ago by losul.

[Heather D]

Hi, sorry me again. I have been onto the shop’s website and come across this food and wonder if this would be better than the Eukanuba. I have done the translation,

BREEDERS high end food for Large Breed Puppies.

Our breeders think is the only one with 100% ingredients fit for human consumption. It is a complete food for dogs 0-12 months old.

Most products are manufactured feed waste, what remains once have separated parts fit for human consumption. These ingredients have a lower quality.

Some feed ingredients, incorporate suitable for people, but Breeders is the only manufactured in Spain than it does on 100% of its composition. 100% premium ingredients . No features or use GM products.

“Breeders” is a brand sold exclusively at TiendAnimal, which offers a high-end feed at a very affordable price (up to half that of conventional brands). See for yourself our quality and you will be convinced.

Puppy food super premium quality at a super low price. This is because the direct sales allows us to avoid marketing costs, marketing and advertising that make up a large percentage of the feed costs of early brand names.

BREEDERS Cubs is a complete dry feed, in the form of extruded, balanced and very tasty dry kibble, made ​​from selected raw materials of high quality. Breeders is a food like no other approaches to what the animal would eat in your state natural.

It satisfies the needs of large breed puppies thanks to the extra size of your kibble as well as pregnant females or nursing. They think that a dog is puppy until it meets its first year of life , although in large breeds this time can be extended up to 6 months, even up to 2 years in giant breeds.

Key Benefits

Selected natural ingredients, origin certificate
High digestibility and energy efficient
Adequate protein and fat
Optimum calcium-phosphorus
High in DHA
Health skin and hair, thanks to the perfect balance of Omega 6 and Omega 3.
Promotes optimal growth, thanks to Natural chondroprotective

High digestibility. During the growth phase, the puppy’s digestive system is less developed than the adult dog. It is therefore important that the feed is especially easy to digest.

High in protein and fat. cub experiences a very rapid growth, stabilizing circa life. At that time multiplied 40 to 50 times their birth weight. To achieve this feat, you need a very rich in protein and easy energy to metabolize food.

DHA
DHA: docosahexaenoic acid
Optimal calcium-phosphorus ratio. Indispensable to form a healthy skeleton able to sustain the growing weight of the puppy.

High content of DHA. docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) is important in the formation of the nervous system, particularly the brain. The brain content of DHA is related to learning ability and intelligence level of newborns and infants. It has been suggested the need to supplement with DHA the mother during the gestational period, and even before this, to ensure the supply to the normal development of the fetal brain. Evidence related to the greater learning ability of offspring from mothers previously supplemented with DHA.

High in Omega 3. Adequate ratio of Omega 3 and 6 helps maintain a healthy coat, reduces skin irritation and enhances the development of immune function.

Breeders not stored in silos , but goes directly by packaging as production. Thus contamination by mites (causing many food allergies) and quality loss are avoided.

BREEDERS is an exclusive brand of Tiendanimal.

I Breeders Cubs 2

Features

Ingredients : Dehydrated chicken meat (35%), rice, chicken fat, corn, concentradp vegetable protein, hydrolyzed and dehydrated meat chicken, apple pulp, salmon oil, dried yeast, yucca extract, potassium chloride, chloride sodium.

Additives

Vitamin A 16,000 IU / KG
Vitamin D3 1600 IU / KG
Vitamin E (alpha tocopherol) 200mg/kg
Cu (copper sulfate pentahydrate) 23 mg / kg
Trace elements:

Fe (iron sulfate heptahydrate): 200 mg / Kg, I (potassium iodide): 1.5 mg / kg, Co (cobalt sulfate pentahydrate): 1 mg / kg, Mn (manganese sulfate monohydrate) 70 mg / kg, Zn (oxide Zinc): 225 mg / kg, Se (sodium selenite): 0.4 mg / kg

Preserved with EC additives (potassium sorbate). With natural antioxidants (citric acid, rosemary extract and natural tocopherols (source of vitamin E).

Guaranteed Analysis

Crude protein 30%
Crude fat 14%
Crude fiber 2.5%
Crude ash 9%
Calcium 1.2%
Phosphorus 0.8%
Moisture 10%
Glucosamine 600 mg / kg
Approx kibble: 1.5 cm x 1.5 cm x 0.8 cm.

Use

Serve dry food guided by the table of recommended daily allowance. It is better to split the corresponding ration in two servings a day. These amounts are only for guidance, so they must then meet the energy needs of the animal, guided by the maintenance of optimal body weight. Always leave fresh clean water available to the animal.

Recommended daily

45 kg (adult weight) 60 kg (adult weight) 70 kg (adult weight) 90 kg (adult weight) 100 kg (adult weight)
2 months (old puppy) 320 gr 410 gr 450 gr 510 gr 540 gr
3 months (old puppy) 420 gr 520 gr 590 gr 670 gr 720 gr
4 months (old puppy) 460 gr 570 gr 660 gr 740 gr 790 gr
5 months (old puppy) 550 gr 660 gr 780 gr 880 gr 960 gr
6 months (old puppy) 620 gr 750 gr 880 gr 995 gr 1080 gr
7 months (old puppy) 620 gr 750 gr 890 gr 1020 gr 1100 gr
8 months (old puppy) 610 gr 750 gr 890 gr 1020 gr 1100 gr
9 months (old puppy) 590 gr 740 gr 870 gr 1010 gr 1080 gr
10-11 months (old puppy) 580 gr 720 gr 860 gr 995 gr 1070 gr
12-13 months (old puppy) 580 gr 710 gr 840 gr 980 gr 1060 gr
14-17 months (old puppy) 580 gr 700 gr 820 gr 960 gr 1040 gr
18-23 Months (old puppy) 560 gr 690 gr 820 gr 950 gr 1030 gr
24 months (old puppy) 560 gr 690 gr 820 gr 940 gr 1030 gr

[Sharon Buchanan]

Desiree,

The values for BUN are different in raw fed dogs. While your dog’s BUN does seem high, his Creatinine is low normal. Most conventional vets aren’t aware of the different values – I had to share the correct values with two of the vets at the clinic I go to. Here is a great article that explains three values that will be different:
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/normal-blood-values-and-raw-fed-dogs/ At their site, they also have a series of free raw feeding videos that should help you keep him on track and you can search their articles for natural ways to address his BUN value.

Since he doesn’t have teeth, you can help supplement his calcium with whole raw eggs. Just crush the shell with the back of a spoon so that the shell is essentially little flat pieces, not totally pulverized. I would also try chicken backs and ribs. I would begin with cutting away the spine and just give him the soft smaller bones. Once his gums have toughened up a bit he might be able to gnaw the spine and neck in order to get his 10% bone.

A proper raw diet consists of 80% protein (heart is considered a protein, not an organ), 10% bone, 5% liver and 5% other organs – pancreas, spleen, testicles, kidneys… Except that you might be trying to feed a raw diet based on AAFCO guidelines for commercial food, I don’t know why you’re adding greens and veggies at this point. Are there other issues besides the elevated BUN? Have you been feeding greens and veggies for the entire six months? I would definitely add a digestive enzyme supplement to his diet, probiotics won’t hurt as well. Mercola makes supplements that I and many others have had good success with.

Dogs Naturally Magazine will be hosting their second weekend-long internet conference in the Fall. They have a Facebook page that, if you “Like”, will keep you up-to-date and let you know when you can sign up. I attended the first one at the end of January and will be signing up for this one as well. Additionally, you’ll then have access to a private group of like-minded owners, nutritionists and homeopaths who all respond to concerns just like yours with personal experience as well as professional opinion.

[Akari_32]

He’s definitely doing better. Got a bit of a ways to go, but we’re getting there for sure.

I agree with you on the chemical and such side of that. What I meant by average is brands (like Pro Plan and Hills) that promote themselves to be the best of the best, and have minimal (chemical, etc) additives to them, but also have some thought and research behind them. Not that I think either of these brands are overly good, but they do have their places, and at this point I’m about ready to try anything. But I do know to stay away from certain things. The price point on these two Pro Plans is great. Like $15 a case usually. That’s something we can definitely handle. It’d be good for keeping the cost down and for some variety.

All I said to them (all of them) was that I needed a low carb food. I’m thinking Hill’s response was them thinking they were going to get my money anyways. Silly Hill’s– I’m not that stupid LOL

I know small breed foods typically have more calories per cup, which is great in my case for Haley, my 11 year old 60 lb lab mix. She can’t stomach too much dry food at once, so toy and small breed foods are typically a good choice if I can’t get a puppy or other higher calorie food. And large breed puppy foods, if formulated properly, have certain calcium and phosphorus levels and ratios. Beyond that, I don’t know if makes any difference giving large breed food to small breed dogs lol

[Marlene N]

hello Kelsey I read your post and im starting to believe the same.
I have a Golden Retriever puppy too.
At 9 weeks old we were forced to change your food because the breeder was using a cheap brand called ” purina ol Roy”. (No nutritional value) We chose the blue life protection large breed brand. For the first 5 months everything seemed to be fine. Her coat was softer, her energy level and bowel movements better and she was anxious to eat her food. Then she started to be exposed to swimming in a lake, grabbing things off the street, eating grass , basically everything that comes with summertime. The diarrhea started. so we stopped her food and started her on the chicken and rice diet and then slowly gradually introduce her food to the chicken and rice and same thing the diarrhea came back full fledged.
For us -it has been going on for 2 months on and off, and we even tried to switch her over to the blue wilderness because we believed it was the grains causing it, but our second visit to the vet today, believes that the blue brand dog food is to rich in protein for dogs with senstive stomach’s. It makes sense. after a lot of research and discussions with veterinarians they believe that golden retrievers naturally have a sensitive stomach so diarrhea is something that will be regular, when it happens, our vet recommended imodium 1 tab every 12 hrs to stop the inital diarrhea runs and cramping along with the bland diet of chicken and rice. And to not feed them blue products.
So at the end of the day, we are guilty of trying to do the best thing for our pets by buying the best brand of dog food on the market with no grains, no by products, no soy or wheat and no chemicals when it would appear that this is what some dogs require.I would suggest any brands that for large breed sensitive stomach like natural choice nutrition. On another note, I saw 1 recall back in 2010 but it was for to much calcium.
right now our girl is on the chicken and rice with a slow introduction to new vet brand of dog food find that is a made by Hills, prescription I / d. we are keeping our fingers crossed that this works. Good luck!

[David T]

I am considering switching my 2 year old IW food (Blue Buffalo Large Breed) to one of the editors choices recommendations. I think Blue Buffalo has been giving my IW infrequent (1-2 times every couple of months) diarrhea. I have heard that Blue buffalo mixes there vitamins separately which can cause abnormal dose in the dry food. I like Blue because of the low calcium <1.5%. However, I have noticed that a lot of the editors choice brands have very high Calcium levels in their food. From what I have read, (on this site) it is recommended to stay below 1.5% Calcium. Are there any dog food brands that are high quality and tailored to large/giant breeds?

[crazy4cats]

It is not grain free. Here are the ingredients for the kitten food: Chicken, chicken liver, salmon, turkey, duck, chicken broth, whole grain brown rice, white rice, oatmeal, potatoes, barley, egg, guar gum, flaxseed meal, dried kelp, carrots, peas, apples, dried skim milk, cranberries, rosemary extract, parsley, taurine, dried chicory root, carrageenan, vitamin A acetate, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, niacin supplement, D-calcium pantothenate, riboflavin supplement, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, vitamin B12 supplement, biotin, folic acid, copper sulfate, calcium iodate and sodium selenite.

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein 11.0% Minimum
Crude Fat 5.5% Minimum
Crude Fiber 1.0% Maximum
Moisture 78.0% Maximum
Calorie Content:
1,347 kcal/kg (210 kcal/can)
Calculated Metabolizable Energy.
The adult flavor is similar, but a little lower in protein and fat.

I don’t mind the rice that far down in the ingredients. There is a lot worse things that could be included, in my opinion. I’m just not sure if it has that bad ingredient that Bobby dog doesn’t like. I can never remember what it is called? All four of my cats will eat this food with no problems. And the price is right!

[Corinne M]

Something happened today that really moved me & I thought I would reach out to the dog community and see what happens. Tell me your thoughts – also, share any resources you know about, please.
So here’s the story: I make my own dog food but sometimes I rotate to a commercial (complete) or commercial supplements and I don’t like my ingredients to go to waste – so today, I realized I had enough egg shells on hand to make about two months’ worth of calcium supplement, which I don’t need right now – so I decided to look on Craigslist to see if anyone in my dog community might need it.
On Craigslist, I accidentally came upon a post that said “I NEED DOG FOOD” – it was a few days old, but I sent a reply asking if they had gotten what they need. Turns out, this lady is sort of having a hard time financially, is renting a room from a church & most of her needs are met except dog food. She has 2 weeks before any funds come in. I told her I could bring her a couple weeks of dog food, and I said she could just “pay it forward” for someone else’s pet someday. Well it turns out that she was involved in running a “death row dog rescue” for 20 years – the 2 dogs she has are, as she calls them, “former inmates”. It got me thinking – I know that there are so many people in this country just barely getting by, and I’ve heard from shelter workers that its not uncommon for pets to be surrendered by loving families who just can’t keep up with food costs. After a little research I discovered that “ Meals-on-Wheels” have begun to include pet food delivery, particularly to low income senior citizens because they found that many of their clients were sharing their meals with their pets out of desperation.
So it occurred to me to reach out to the food pantries in my community & the local “Meals on Wheels” to donate pet foods for them to distribute as needed. Maybe someone who reads this will do the same. ..I hope so.
Best, Corinne

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Lilmonster –

Raw meaty bones have a balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio, it’s just really high. You can certainly try feeding boneless meat with the See Spot Liver Longer Dinner Mix in the morning and raw meaty bones in the evening – as long as your dog doesn’t get constipated it should be fine. You can also feed a little boneless meat along with the raw meaty bones or alternate between meals of raw meaty bones and something like tripe to lower the calcium to phosphorus ratio. I know my girls get constipated if they eat an entire meal of raw meaty bones so I usually throw in a handful of hearts or gizzards. Also, if you’re only feeding the dinner mix for one meal a day and feeding raw meaty bones for the other, I’d highly recommend using the guidelines for puppies (4 tbs. per pound of meat versus 2 tbs.) to ensure that your dog is getting all the nutrients he needs.

I use the Twinlab Daily One with iron. The AAFCO minimum for iron is 80 mg/kg and the maximum is 3,000 mg/kg. So with 10 mg. per capsule, the Twinlab Daily One with Iron poses no risk of overdosing the dog on iron and it provides extra insurance in the event that a meal is too low in iron (which is a distinct possibility if the dog isn’t getting much red meat and/or organ meat). There is little to no risk of overdosing on vitamins and minerals from whole food sources, especially fruits and vegetables. The amount of calcium in the Twinlab Daily One isn’t high enough to affect anything.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 10 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Lilmonster]

Hi everyone!

Another lurker here eager and (almost) ready to make the switch to raw. Like other newbies, I have so much respect for everyone here for not only committing so much time and effort to their fur babies, but also taking the time to answer endless, potentially stupid questions from nervous dog moms like me! I would never even have known about raw diets, let alone been able to work up the nerve to take the plunge if it weren’t for this forum, so thanks to all of you!

Some background info: My fiancé and I just adopted our little one, Lily, two months ago from a rescue. She’s 41 lbs and the vet estimates her age at around 1, much younger than the rescue thought – her teeth were pretty yellow when we first got her but presumably because she wasn’t given anything to chew on to clean plaque, so they thought she was 2 yrs 8 months (!), which leads me to think she sadly may have been malnourished as a puppy since they were feeding her as an adult. As soon as we gave her bones and chew toys her teeth became pearly white. Anyway, we switched her to Fromm’s Surf and Turf kibble when we got her, but we noticed she started itching more and more. Took her to the vet to ask about the itchiness as well as a suspected UTI, but the diagnosis for the itching was understandably vague. We’re not sure if it’s a food allergy or environmental – she doesn’t have fleas, and we’re pretty sure it’s not a yeast issue. She doesn’t smell yeasty at all and I think the vet would have picked up on that. So after a recent bout of diarrhea due to too many high fat treats after a training session, I figured it would be a good time to begin the transition to raw after her system cleared up. I fasted her for a meal then fed her a mixture of white rice and pumpkin for two meals, which brought her poos back to normal, then began feeding her a 50-50 mix of ground turkey and pumpkin with the See Spot Live Longer mix added in. The vet is holistic and also trained in Chinese medicine, and she suggested that I switch to beef instead of turkey since chicken and turkey is considered “hot” and could be contributing to the itchiness, so yesterday I made the switch to ground beef and her poo was still fine this morning. But then I remembered reading somewhere (I think on preymodelraw) that it’s not recommended to start with beef, but I think for the time being I’ll stick with it just to avoid changing her diet too many times (unless anyone here would strongly advise against starting with beef?). At the moment, her daily food (divided into two meals) is 1 lb 90% lean ground beef + 2 tbsp SSLL + 1/2 tsp hempseed oil + 1 tsp coconut oil (just started adding it) + 1 human probiotic. She is also currently on a one week course of antibiotics for the urinary problem.

I have Steve Brown’s Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet, ordered the Dr. Becker’s book, and have read through many of the threads on this forum but like other newbies I’m getting lost in all the information and feeling as overwhelmed as Cyndi was in the thread where she first started, lol. I’m thinking of sticking to the ground boneless meat with the See Spot Live Longer mix for a bit while I figure out all the supplements that are needed and place my meat orders. A few questions that I’d really appreciate if someone could help out with:

– I know you can’t add the See Spot Live Longer dinner mix to bone-in meats, but am I also correct in assuming that if I begin adding RMBs in the PM and continue to feed boneless ground meat + See Spot Live Longer mix in the AM that it would be too much calcium? Ideally I’d like to continue using the SSLL simply because it’s the easiest way for me to not have to worry that her nutrition is unbalanced while I’m still learning to balance her meals myself. I did see the most recent topic mentioning CarnivoreRaw but that’s a bit out of my budget. Hound Dog Mom, do you use the Twinlab Daily One with or without iron? Also, I noticed the Twinlab does have calcium in it, does that not matter because the amount is so low? If I choose to go the multivitamin route, can I then add other things like fruits and veggies and such without worrying about overloading on a specific vitamin/mineral or will I have to be careful with what I add?

– This may be a bit much to ask, but if one of the veterans has the time to respond I would be so grateful. Could someone make a list of the essential vitamins/minerals (or alternatively, foods that will provide those vitamins and minerals) that MUST be added to a diet that consists of boneless meat in the AM and RMBs in the PM, and the approximate amounts? This is the part I’m feeling especially in over my head with. Vitamin D, vitamin E, fish oil, manganese, so many different things I’m seeing that they need, it’s hard to not feel kind of scared to do it all from scratch, which is my eventual goal. I think I’m having a hard time figuring out what is absolutely necessary vs. optional but ideal.

– So from what I’ve read so far it seems to be a good idea to start her on chicken backs and quarters, then begin alternating boneless meat every other meal. How many meals should I feed the backs and quarters before I begin incorporating boneless meals? Also, should I already be giving her supplements during this time, or should I wait until she adjusts then begin adding supplements. As for stuff like organ meats, heart, and green tripe, how long should I wait before beginning to incorporate those? I promise I have read the other threads, but I’ve seen a few different recommendations on timelines so I thought I’d pose the question again just so I can be clear about it.

Thanks in advance to anyone willing to take the time to answer my questions!

[Corinne M]

Hi Jennifer,
I’m so glad to hear that the info was helpful – I remember how hard & overwhelming it was for me to learn about pancreatitis when it my dog was going through it. So it’s nice to know that someone else can make use of what I learned. I’m sorry to her about your experience with the vet – I think I just lucked out with mine. But I don’t want to leave you with the impression that your vet did anything wrong in prescribing Prednisone, because I think that it’s something that is widely used to treat specific problems, but just like any drug or herbal remedy, there are times & cases when it’s just better to avoid it – an argument could be made that giving your dog a corticosteroid so that he’s not in constant misery from the itchiness is a compassionate thing to do. The flip side is, there are risks associated with using it and if the “itchies” can be eliminated through diet & supplements maybe that’s worth trying.
I also don’t know why they are pushing Royal Canin – maybe they’ve had other dogs do well on it and think it’s the right thing for Milo. But I agree with you, if you suspect it’s triggering allergies it’s worthwhile to look at other foods.
My dog’s are doing great on what I feed them – I alternate between homecooked, home-prepare raw, and commercially prepare raw. But here’s the thing – I only started doing this about 4 years ago because one of my dogs had a blown-out immune system & I had to learn how to feed him in a way that was anti-inflammatory, avoided chemicals, avoided allergens, etc. etc. And to be honest, I have made mistakes along the way that could have done more harm than good (for example, I got the phosphorus/calcium ratio totally wrong for awhile and only discovered it after labwork came back with creatinine levels waaaaay high – I could have caused kidney failure in my dogs if that had not been caught & corrected). And I still consider myself to be learning – so I keep a close eye on them and read everything I can get my hands on and keep it simple and safe. I will do some research for you & report back what I find, but in the meantime, keep up your search for a nutritionally complete & balanced high-quality commercial food that meets the requirements for Milo’s pancreas.
I do think a simple boiled chicken & rice diet is useful when dogs are sick – fewer ingredients to upset their system. But, the recommended fat ratio for a dog with damaged pancreas is REALLY specific so I would only home cook right now if I knew for certain that the recipe I used was safe in terms of fat ratio. The recipe I used after Max had pancreatitis was formulated for me to deal with his other issues but I’ll look for info on a basic safe recipe for you.
BTW: Thanks to the other posters who found my post helpful. I learn so much from you all and from this website! I really appreciate the resources & people here!
Corinne

[losul]

Lisa, I’ve been thinking about Chewy. Hopefully you have started to be able to keep badly needed nutrition in him now?

Some questions about his umbilical hernia, large or small? Has it gotten larger over the last several months? Is it painful to the touch for Chewy? I’m wondering if for some reason, perhaps financial, you had delayed the procedure, because in general a vet would do it by 5 or 6 months if they were pushing the time frame out to allow for spaying/neutering at the same time, otherwise probably earlier, and especially if it was causing problems or growing in size. From what I can determine Chewy is now about 9 months old. With a very small hernia, it might be only a bit of fat that pokes through the hole in the abdominal wall. With a larger hole, a loop of the intestine might drop into the sac and cause restriction which could definitely make Chewy vomit. Worse, a more severe restriction could even strangulate the intestine with much more dire consequences. Occaisonally the hole may even begin to close on it’s own by about 6 months. If the intestines are outside of the abdominal musculature structure and it begins closing……

This would be a large umbilical hernia, and no doubt the intestines have dropped into the sac. This one might be large enough not to substantially restrict or strangulate the intestines, depending on the actual size of the hole. It’s still quite dangerous.

http://www.faqs.org/photos/hernia-2773.jpg

“The symptoms associated with a hernia, like the one pictured in Figure 1 and 2 may initially relate to the inability of food to pass through this constricted section of intestine. Muscles within the wall of the intestine are responsible for moving food and water through the organ. Waves of contractions called peristalsis propel the contents along the length of the intestine. When an obstruction is encountered, like the one described, the peristaltic waves reverse direction and move the food backward through the entire digestive tract. This results in food and water being vomited.”

http://www.americananimalcare.com/pethealth/hernia_surgery_dogs_cats_umbilical_diaphragmatic_irguinal.html

I don’t know what is causing Chewy’s vomiting, but it’s really serious stuff to be vomiting everyday for many months, and a pup at that. You really must work on getting to the cause and very soon.

BTW, if Chewy’s case even has anything to do with acid production, low acid production can cause the same symptoms as too much acid production. I’d think thrice about self medicating with acid inhibitory drugs, especially at inspecific dosages, and remember he’s ONLY an 8 to 9 lb malnourished pup. 1/2 or 1/3 of an adult human dose???? Stomach acid is even more important to the dog, a carnivore. Acid is needed for proper digestion, especially protein digestion, acid is needed for the stomach to empty correctly, and failure to do so results in GERD. Stomach acid is a defense against bacterial infections and fungal infections, certain vitamins and minerals also require acid to be absorbed such as calcium, magnesium, zinc, copper, iron, selenium, B-12, etc. Improper digestion of foods can lead to to large of particles getting into the lower digestive tract and causing allergies, diarrhea, pathogenic bacterial fermentation, etc. Acid stimulates pepsin to be released into the stomach for digestion, and for pancreatic enzymes and bile to be released into the small intestine to further digest carbs, fats and proteins. I could keep going on and on. Proper overall health begins with proper acid production. Improperly diagnosing, and prohibiting or shutting down acid production with zantac, prilosec, etc. could be the start of a vicious circle and downward spiral of, helicobacter overgrowth/ infections leading to ulcers, other pathogenic infections, colitis, gastroenteritis, IBD, pancreatitis, allergies, diabetes, malnourishment, inability to digest all but the simplest of foods (hydrolyzed), dependence on inhibitors, evermore drugs to staunch the symptoms (like metronidazole and steroids) and mask the root cause, and ever declining health. Be very careful….. and best wishes Lisa.

I wonder why acid inhibitors are some of Pharma, Inc’s. biggest blockbusters of all time?

• This reply was modified 11 years, 10 months ago by losul.

[fey W]

Raw is less wasteful, cheaper and much easier. On raw the dog gets to eat zero carbs and chew on bones to naturally keep teeth clean and possibly sugar levels more stable. It is low in ingredients so perfect for allergy prone dogs.

My dog is currently eating cooked food. I had to cook up a whole chicken and bone it, cook up pork and chop those meats, cook up hamburger and rice and mix together along with a small amount of liver and add in a calcium source, some bits of this and that to balance the diet. Then I had to go back to the original amount of raw ingredients to figure out how many meals that would be and divide accordingly so I won’t over/under feed her pack up in 2 day packets and freeze. On raw I give her boneless red meat and every 2-4 days she gets a bit of raw bony meat plus organ along with the same supplements I have to give her with a cooked diet minus the calcium of course. She loves it all but sure has more enjoyment from the raw.

Never heard that dogs get snappy if taken off raw. Many dogs get possessive of raw bits so practicing trading is a great idea. Many people only find out their dogs can be possessive when some delicious raw bony thing is given, even rawhides, bully sticks don’t have the same value.

My lucky never ever had any parasites from raw feeding or fleas or ticks or contaminated water, Sassy once got a tapeworm from eating a flea. Raw meat from the store is very safe. I have always cooked raw meat and it is very easy to keep juices contained and the kitchen clean, lots of water and soap.

A great primer on raw feeding is here.
http://www.chanceslittlewebsite.com/prey-model-raw.html

[spaniel39]

hey Mom, I had a post and needed your advice-Thank you!

Hi
HDM et all
My sophie the Komondor is now 17 months old and I’ve switched her large breed puppy
food to Adult large breed, still with the lower calcium and phosphorous levels
around 1.4 calcium and 1.0 phosphorous
But I can’t seem to find any information on if I can feed them higher levels once full grown
and adults. I have 2 springer spaniels and even though I rotate their diets, would like not
to have to get so many different kinds of dog foods
is 2.2, etc too high a cacium level for an adult large breed? Does it even matter.
The spaniels are doing well on Wellness Core Ocean (and great stools) and would love
to put Sophie on that
Thank you all
Michael (and Sophie and Samuel the Spaniel and Charlotte)

[spaniel39]

Hi
HDM et all
My sophie the Komondor is now 17 months old and I’ve switched her large breed puppy
food to Adult large breed, still with the lower calcium and phosphorous levels
around 1.4 calcium and 1.0 phosphorous
But I can’t seem to find any information on if I can feed them higher levels once full grown
and adults. I have 2 springer spaniels and even though I rotate their diets, would like not
to have to get so many different kinds of dog foods
is 2.2, etc too high a cacium level for an adult large breed? Does it even matter.
The spaniels are doing well on Wellness Core Ocean (and great stools) and would love
to put Sophie on that
Thank you all
Michael (and Sophie and Samuel the Spaniel and Charlotte)

[Bret O]

Found the answer in another reply. Thanks to Hound Dog Mom:

Hi yevincent –
Yes – calcium needs to be converted to a dry matter basis for wet foods due to the high moisture content. Calculating calcium levels on a kcal. basis (versus percent of weight basis) is the most accurate way to evaluate the appropriateness of foods as it accounts for varying caloric densities between different foods. For a large breed puppy you’d want to feed a food with 3.5 g. calcium per 1,000 kcal. or less. I’ll walk you through the calculation. Let’s say the food comes in a standard 13.2 oz. can, has 400 kcal. per can and the company tells you there is 0.3% calcium on an as-fed basis.
1) Convert 13.2 oz. to grams (easier to perform calculations using grams): (13.2 oz.)(28 grams/1 oz.) = ~397 g.
2) Calculate how many grams of calcium are in the can of food: (397 g.)(0.003) = 1.19 g. calcium per can.
3) Calculate how many grams of calcium per 1,000 kcal.: (1.19 g. calcium per can)/(400 kcal. per can) = 0.00298 g. calcium per kcal. (0.00298 g. calcium per kcal.)(1,000 kcal.) = ~2.98 g. calcium per 1,000 kcal.
————————————
If you wanted the calcium level on a percent basis:
1) 100% – % Moisture = % Dry Matter
2) [(As Fed Calcium %)/(% Dry Matter)] X 100%
BTW – I’d highly recommend Tripett as a canned topper for large breed puppies. It’s not a complete and balanced food as it’s green tripe only but it makes a great topper if you’re feeding a balanced kibble. Green tripe is high in protein and naturally has a balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio but contains very low levels of each (only about 0.3% calcium on a dry matter basis if I recall correctly). The best part is dogs go nuts for it.

[Christina E]

I have a 7 year old female miniature schnauzer who recently had bladder stone removal surgery. The stone analysis showed that they were composed 100% of calcium oxalate. The vet, of course, recommended that she be put on a “prescription” diet, but I think that food is just awful! Plus, there is no guarantee that even eating that food will prevent the stones from coming back 100%, so why have her eat it? I am looking for a high protein, low carb dog food. I know that most kibble is high in carbohydrates so I want to stay away from that. I am looking for a good canned food (low oxalate) or frozen/freeze dried food commercially available. A lot of the foods seem to have sweet potatoes, which are a high oxalate food, along with carrots. Besides home cooking, which I really don’t want to do since I’m not good in the kitchen, I want to make sure she gets feed a biologically complete food. Thanks!

[Hound Dog Mom]

You can’t look for a certain percent of calcium, whether or not a certain percent is appropriate will vary depending on the caloric density of the food. In a food which contains more calories than TOTW 1.4% may or may not be appropriate. If the food is low in calories, the dog will need to eat more to fulfill its energy needs and vice versa. So for example, if one food has 1.4% calcium and 3,000 kcal/kg and another food has 1.4% calcium but has 5,000 kcal/kg – you can see that the dog eating the lower calorie formula would end up consuming much more calcium than if it were eating the higher calorie formula. For this reason, calcium must be looked at on energy basis – usually grams per 1,000 kcal. Most nutritionists recommend the calcium levels not exceed 3.5 g/1,000 kcal. for large breed puppies. The TOTW formula you mentioned has 3.9 g/1,000 kcal.

You can give boiled eggs as often as you want as long as they don’t exceed 20% of his balanced meals.

[Taylor D]

I have been an avid follower to this forum and website and decided to finally register to participate, not just because I have a question, although I do 🙂

I own three female Golden Retrievers. Misty is 10, Daisi is 6, and Lena is 7 months.

After much research and reading Hound Dog Mom’s list of Large Breed Dog Foods (I even printed it out) I decided to feed Lena Wellness CORE Puppy for her first year.
She made the switch great (she was eating Blue Buffalo Wilderness at breeders) and is doing great on it. Her coat is sooo soft.
The thing I have noticed is if I give her too much of that kibble, she will get soft poop.
I know this is a high protein/ high fat food and I should be giving her less than what the bag says.
She is a good weight now, nice and lean, no ribs or hips showing, although I can feel her ribs. But she is small for her age!
She weighs 30 pounds and she is 7 months!
She is only gaining about 5-10 pounds a month.
I am feeding her 2 and a half cups of the puppy food a day, divided among three meals, for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
She does fine on that amount, poop is fine. When I try to increase the amount, she gets soft poop.
I do pour some fresh raw goat milk in with her food each meal when I am increasing her food, and sometimes it keeps the soft poop away but not all the time.
I know why she gets the soft poop, and I know she is of good weight for her size, no ribs are showing.
But she is small for her age and breed.
Is it possible she is not getting the calcium she needs, because of the decreased amount I am feeding her, because of the protein rich food?
Wouldn’t the calcium levels listed for the food be for an average serving size?
Wouldn’t it be okay to feed her a food slightly lower in protein maybe around 30-32%, instead of the 36% in Wellness Core Puppy, but with slightly higher levels of calcium?

Their is a Slow Growth Method of feeding Goldens or large breeds that some breeders recommend following. Even with the Slow Growth Method, Lena should weigh at least 65 pounds for her age.

I also know high protein is not a problem for large breeds.

I was just wondering if I could switch her to a good 4.5-5 star grain free food with 30-32% protein with higher levels of calcium. Or even a 35%+ protein food with higher levels of calcium, since I would still be feeding her less than the amount listed on bag.

[spaniel39]

mimi and William
see my post above yours.
NOW also has an adult formula
I learned the hard way (diarrhea, loose stools) that many puppies/dogs have a chicken
allergy and have stopped feeding it (the kibble, that is) to my dogs.
I have a Huge breed (Komondor) and 2 Springer Spaniels right now.
Lamb is easily digestible and my Komondor is on Nutrisource large Breed LAMB
I think it’s about $49 for a 30 pound bag
Acana Duck and Bartlett Pear is good and low calcium levels for the large breed puppies
although it is expensive.
It’s really trial and error until you find something that works
Oh, and also, I only use grain free, although there are some good foods with low
glycemic grains such as oats, millet, alfalfa.
Also, for diarrhea, I’ve used canned (unspiced) pumpin but find that a baked
sweet potato (with skin) is better