[pugmomsandy]

I wouldn’t necessarily add anything to the xkaliber. Tripe on it’s own is perfectly balanced with a calcium to phosporus ratio of 1:1. The xkaliber has additional bone which probably balances out the addition of organs in this particular blend. You would have to contact the company to get the exact numbers on the calcium and phosphorus in the the xkaliber since there is only a nutritional info link on the “tripe” product only. It seems to be a compete food in of itself. When I make a batch of food I make sure to add certain amounts of meat/organs/bone to be balanced and I’ll add some tripe. But when I feed tripe, it’s by itself. Is that confusing? I can’t seem to get into words what I mean to say!! Also you might want to introduce tripe slowly as it is high in fat – 95% fat to protein ratio!

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/the-stink-on-tripe/

This article mentions Mary Voss who is greentripe.com:

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/11_7/features/Raw-Green-Tripe_16043-1.html

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi acs379 –

Nope, there’s nothing specific about excess fat that will cause developmental issues. Many veterinarians and breeders just tend to recommend lower fat foods because they generally have a lower calorie count per cup and they feel that it will be less likely that the dog will consume too many calories. However, as long as portion sizes are controlled it doesn’t pose an issue. My experience with my hounds has actually been that I have difficulty keeping weight on them – they tend to be on the thin side if anything, so for me it’s been really important to use more calorie-dense foods.

First off I would like to say that it is wonderful that your breeder is recommending the inclusion of fresh foods. Many breeders and veterinarians don’t recognize the importance of fresh foods. Fresh meat, plain yogurt and eggs are wonderful additions to dry kibble – they boost the protein levels and the species appropriateness. Adding eggs and boneless meat will also help to reduce the calcium to phosphorus ratio of the food as they’re high in phosphorus but low in calcium. Just be sure to keep the unbalanced extras to approximately 20% or less of the meal or you could skew the calcium to phosphorus ratio too much and potentially throw off the balance of the other nutrients in the food. Canned foods and dehydrated foods make great toppers too, if feeding a balanced canned or dehydrated food with appropriate calcium levels you can add as much as you want, if feeding a food with higher calcium levels or an unbalanced canned topper follow the 20% rule. Tripe makes an excellent topper – especially for large and giant breed puppies, the reason being that tripe has has a naturally balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio (1:1) but very low concentrations of both minerals (only about 0.3% if I recall correctly). So feeding tripe will dilute the overall calcium levels without the risk of throwing of the c:p ratio. When Gertie was a pup she ate THK and I generally fed her 4 C. THK + 1 can Tripett (canned green tripe) daily (and some fresh additions like eggs, plain yogurt and tinned sardines a few times a week). Mabel started right off on raw and ate raw green tripe as about 25% of her diet for the first 6 months to keep her calcium levels low. Another benefit to tripe (if you can get it raw) is that it’s loaded with probiotics and digestive enzymes.

I generally recommend not supplementing with vitamins (unless per veterinarian recommendation) for those feeding a balanced commercial food, however vitamin c and vitamin b are water soluble vitamins so they are not harmful in excess, if you wanted to add them it shouldn’t cause any problems. The problems arise with certain minerals and fat soluble vitamins as these can be harmful when consumed in excess. Because balanced commercial foods already contain vitamins and minerals adding additional vitamins (fat soluble) and certain minerals could potentially result in toxicity. I would definitely not supplement with vitamin d or calcium – vitamin d is a fat soluble vitamin and adding calcium would likely throw off the calcium to phosphorus ratio and high levels of calcium are what need to be avoided for large and giant breed puppies.

Now onto discussing the Science Diet Adult Maintenance recommendation. I see many breeders recommend putting large breed puppies directly onto an adult maintenance food and this is extremely poor advice (imo) and often based on faulty logic. The reason breeders typically recommend adult foods is because adult foods tend to be lower in fat and calories than puppy foods – from the previous discussion we know that this isn’t an issue as long as portions are controlled. Feeding a puppy a food designated for adult maintenance puts the puppy at risk of not getting enough fat, protein or certain vitamins and minerals. SD is extremely low in protein – to be honest I wouldn’t even feel comfortable feeding a food that low in protein to an adult dog, let alone a growing puppy. I don’t ever recommend feeding foods with less than 30% protein (for adults or puppies) and the SD only has 24.5% protein. Also, if you go to SD’s website and read the product description for the adult maintenance food you’ll notice they state “Not recommended for puppies, pregnant or lactating dogs” – this is because dogs in their growth phase or in the stressful phase of pregnancy or lactation need high levels of protein, higher levels of fat and higher levels of certain vitamins and minerals. I personally wouldn’t ever feed or recommend any Science Diet Products. I would recommend checking out some 4 or 5 star foods with appropriate calcium levels. It’s also better if you rotate foods, don’t stick with just one – dogs need variety. I’d say at a bare minimum have three go to brands (preferably made by different companies and with different protein sources) and rotate through them. Rotational feeding has benefits including fostering a diverse population of gut flora, mitigating the short comings of feeding any one single food (no food is perfect) and providing alternatives in the event of a recall or formula change.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 11 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[acs379]

Hound Dog Mom, thank you for being so thorough in your answer! It clears things up quite a bit; the article discussed briefly that the fat percentage should be at a lower level but did not go into specifics as for the health implications of excess fat. I just wanted to confirm that there was nothing about excess fat SPECIFICALLY that would cause health issues (i.e. like excess calcium). I’m thinking I can start with Nature’s Variety Instinct and Orijen, because they both have good nutritional stats, good ingredients from what I understand, and seem to be used with success by other owners who have posted. If you have any other suggestions for foods, please let me know! I was planning on supplementing with fresh food (i.e. hardboiled eggs, yogurt) and canned food (i.e. tripe) as well as digestive enzymes to help aid in the digestion of the dry food.

I do have a few follow-up questions. Here’s my situation: I’m getting a German Shepherd puppy in a few weeks (yay!). It’s coming from a well-known breeder, who made some nutritional suggestions based on years of experience with multiple vets. They suggest, “Puppies from 8 weeks to 1 year should be fed Science Diet Maintenance, fresh meat, yogurt, and boiled eggs.” However, Science Diet Maintenance has extremely LOW ratings on this site, as well as negative reviews from other posters on this site. This really concerns me, and I’m curious as to why they would make that particular suggestion.

In addition, they make suggestions for vitamins as well: 1,000 mg Vitamin C a day and a multi-vitamin and a B complex capsule once a day. In the research I did, the only supplements mentioned were calcium and Vitamin D. Do you see any issue with giving the suggested 3 vitamins?

Thanks so much for your help! You’ve provided so much valuable information and have also had to guide further research for me.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi acs379 –

This is a wonderful point to bring up! I’ll try to explain it as best I can.

The two main nutritional risks to large breed puppies are excess calcium consumption (or an unbalanced calcium to phosphorus ratio) and excess energy consumption (too many calories leading to rapid weight gain).

The reason most formulas targeted towards large breed puppies and recommended for large breed puppies tend to be lower in fat has to do with the excess energy consumption risk factor. Protein and carbohydrates both have approximately 4 kcal. per gram while fat has over twice this much at about 9 kcal. per gram. So as you can see, fat is much more calorically dense than protein or carbohydrates and, as a result, foods that are higher in fat tend to be more calorically-dense as well. It is easier for a puppy (or any dog) to consume too much energy (calories) when eating a more calorically-dense food and this would ultimately result in undesired weight gain and, as we know, undesired weight gain in large and giant breed puppies can contribute to the development of orthopedic disease. This is why when feeding a more calorically-dense, or as some would say “rich”, food it is necessary to strictly control portions.

As you can see fat – per se – is not a risk factor for developmental orthopedic disease, excess calories are. It’s very possible to feed a puppy (or any dog) a food that is higher and fat and not have the dog gain unwanted pounds – this is done through portion control. So if, for example, a puppy is eating a food with 20% fat that has 500 kcal. per cup the puppy will obviously need less of this food (to compensate for the high caloric-density) than of a food with 12% fat and 350 kcal. per cup.

All of my puppies have eaten higher fat foods. Gertie ate a combination of The Honest Kitchen and grain-free canned foods until she was 8 months old with fat levels in excess of 20%. Mabel ate a homemade raw diet from the time she came home at 8 weeks with fat levels in the 30% – 40% range. I keep track of the calories my dogs are consuming, so my pups are fed the amount of calories that keeps them in optimal body condition. This means that when eating fattier more calorie-dense meals they get a smaller portion than when they’re eating leaner less calorie-dense meals.

In summary, it’s not the fat that contributes to developmental orthopedic disease it’s the excess calories that fat provides. As long as portion sizes are monitored and the pup isn’t allowed to gain weight too quickly fat levels won’t pose an issue.

I hope that helps clear things up!

• This reply was modified 12 years, 11 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi gsdmommy89 –

I think the new formulation for Orijen Large Breed Puppy should be okay. For some reason Orijen’s website isn’t working for me right now but I believe the minimum and maximum put it at right around the 3.5 g./1,000 kcal. level (maybe slightly lower than 3.5 g. basing the calculation on the min and slightly more basing it on the max).

The Earthborn Primitive Natural formula is too high in calcium but I believe Meadow Feast and Coastal Catch are okay if you’d be interested in either of those formulas. The calorie content for the Earthborn Primitive Naturals is 3,800 kcal. per kg. of food or approximately 445 kcal. per cup.

The calcium levels in Nutrisca are too high: 1.7105% for the chicken formula, 2.2294% for the salmon formula and 2.1516% for the lamb formula.

I really like Nature’s Variety Instinct and they do have two formulas with appropriate calcium levels – the Rabbit Meal formula and the Limited Ingredient Turkey Meal formula.

All of the Merrick formulas are too high in calcium to the best of my knowledge. When I last emailed Merrick they had just reformulated their grain-free line and did not yet have the lab results back with the nutrient values but I was told the calcium levels were expected to be roughly the same as in the old formulas and all the values in the old formulas were around 2.0%.

I think Orijen would be a great food to try, I think it’s one of the better dry foods available. The best recommendation I could make would be to find several quality foods that are high in animal-based protein and rotate through them. It’s also a good idea to mix in canned or fresh foods if possible – this will boost the protein levels and provide some less processed food for your pup. In my opinion it’s very important that dogs get variety and have some fresh foods incorporated into their meals occasionally. Once your pup is around 8 months old and through the rapid growth phase, I wouldn’t worry so much about calcium but when the pup is young and growing rapidly it’s important. So some of the foods you mentioned (Nutrisca, Earthborn Primitive Naturals, Merrick, etc.) would be fine to try later on but I’d wait until the pup is at least 8 months old.

Good luck 🙂

[Saireah]

* InkedMarie:
Yes! Dog Food Chat – I’m “Grey.” 🙂

* Sully’s Mom:
I really just used the sample bags as a treat. I opened them up to see their reaction and fed them a small handful. The reaction between Dr. Tim’s and Earthborn was noticeable, though, and the sample from Dr. Tim’s was larger (5lbs). Earthborn were just little bags (but they did have coupons on each one!). What’s lovely about Earthborn is that they have the UPC for Trees program (see their web site). When I was originally considering Earthborn, I LOVED that idea. I still may feed Costal Catch if I decide to rotate as I’m thinking about, though. Another thing that turned me off a bit about Earthborn is the ash level – it’s a bit higher than Dr. Tim’s. Now, mind you, it’s not as if it automatically makes it a bad food – the pea protein and the ash are just factors that Dr. Tim’s was lower on or didn’t have and that’s how I made my decision between specifically selecting between both of them. Also, something funny — some people mentioned that Dr. Tim’s smells like roasted chicken, but I think it smells like the Iowa State Fair barnyard. 😉 Dr. Tim originally suggested Pursuit for my dog (the one with hip dysplasia), too – because the extra fatty acids in Pursuit would help (per his quote). However, I circled back with him half a year later and he did say that grain-free would suit perfectly fine now that she’s in better health in terms of her joints.

Kinesis GF has 32% protein, 18% fat,1.51% calcium, 415 cal/cup, and 6.9% ash.
Pursuit is grain inclusive and has 30% protein, 1.06% calcium, 20% fat, 450 cal/cup, and 6.5% ash.

They’re both a mainly chicken-based food, with Pursuit being more calories. However, the plus-side with grain-free is that you can feed less. Compare the feeding suggestions. Right there, I’d say that grain-free (in my personal opinion) is superior because 1) it’s grain-free, yay!, 2) you’re going to feed less, 3) they’ll produce less waste because of this, and 4) Kinesis has higher protein. I’m not incredibly knowledgeable about specifics of ingredients, but this is why I chose the grain-free line over the grain inclusive line. GF Kinesis looks to be roughly $5 more per 30lb bag than Pursuit, too – and Dr. Tim mentioned they are considering a 44lb bag of GF Kinesis (grain inclusive Kinesis has this option available) in the future.

I’m thinking that he might have mentioned Pursuit over the two specifically because your dog is fairly young and likely very active – so he was thinking he’d do quite well on Pursuit. By no means are either a “bad” food to choose – remember, there’s several dogs out there eating low quality food every day. My mother fed our family dogs a food that is a 2 star food for his entire life and he lived to be 12. I know we’re trying to do our best with what they food them, but no matter what – by choosing a 4 star or 5 star food – we are making a better choice.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi yevincent –

I realize Fromm is rated 4 stars. Fromm was just recently downgraded to 4 stars (thank god – I could never understand why that food was rated 5 stars!) but at the time I made the list the entire line was rated 5 stars. I have not yet had a chance to go in and change it. Within the next month I plan on updating this list and also making a list of grain-inclusive foods. I’m just strapped for time at the moment.

The calculation for the Wellness CORE was based on the actual calcium level sent to me by the company. I emailed them and asked for the average calcium level in the Wellness CORE Puppy Food based on their product analysis results.

I have the email saved and this was their response to me:

Dear Lydia,

Thank you for taking the time to write about Wellness CORE Puppy dry dog food.

This formula contains approximately 1.23% calcium.

Thanks again for contacting us.

Alyssa Martin
Representative
Consumer Affairs

000299852A

You’re basing your calculation on the max listed on their website. Companies will often list minimums and maximums that are quite a bit higher or lower than the actual amount in the food to allow for a margin of error. I chose to make the list based on average levels rather than maximums or minimums.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi starbright –

Unfortunately if your dog has hip dysplasia she has hip dysplasia. Hip dysplasia is a chronic degenerative condition and is not reversible. The condition will progress as she ages, although its difficult to predict the extend to which it will affect her as many factors are at play (degree of pain tolerance, size and weight of the dog, etc.). For some dogs hip dysplasia is crippling and for others it may never cause more than a mild stiffness with age. Anti-inflammatory supplements (tart cherry, omega 3’s, boswellia, turmeric, etc.) will certainly help manage pain and supplements such as glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM/hylaluronic acid (or whole foods containing these items) may help slow the joint deterioration to a certain degree – but they certainly won’t stop it. It will also be critical to keep her lean and active (low impact activities). Being that she’s over a year old calcium levels won’t affect anything at this point.

[yevincent]

Hi, it is me again. Since I have a labrador puppy, I am looking for wet food (canned) with low calcium. I have found most formulas of wellness and Nature’s Variety Instinct have low calcium (less than 3.5g/kcal). I also know Hound Dog Mom made a list of recommanded dry food which contains low calcium (I know the list is a lot of work and love! Thnaks! Hound Dog Mom!). I wonder if someone can share advice or a list of WET food with low calcium (these food also should be 4 or 5 star grade here).
Any suggestion will be appreciate. You all have a great day!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi EHubbman –

Yes the calcium to phosphorus ratio is very important for all dogs and should be no less than 1:1 and no more than 2:1, with around 1.2:1 being considered ideal. However when it comes to large and giant breed puppies, the overall amount of calcium consumed is still very important. Even if a food had an appropriate ratio but the calcium levels were very high – say 2.2% calcium and 2% phosphorus (1.1:1) – I wouldn’t feel comfortable feeding the food to a large or giant breed puppy. All three of my dogs eat a raw diet and my most recent pup (now 11 months old) was weaned onto raw at 8 weeks old. To keep the calcium levels controlled while still keeping the calcium to phosphorus ratio balanced, fed her green tripe for around 25% of her diet. Green tripe has a naturally balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio (roughly 1:1) but has very low levels of each mineral (only about 0.3%).

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi arlenem –

Feeding a food with appropriate calcium levels is most crucial during the first 8 months or so. When puppies are young they can’t regulate their calcium absorption which is why high levels of calcium during the rapid growth phase can cause developmental orthopedic disease in large and giant breed puppies. Around 6 – 8 months puppies gain the ability to regulate calcium absorption. Once a large breed puppy is an adult their nutritional needs are no different than any other dog. I actually would avoid most “large breed adult” foods as they tend to be way too low in protein and loaded with fillers.

[yevincent]

Thanks, hound dog mom!!! you are a life safer!-dog saver?;)
I know tripe is good food, but here is what I concern: if I mix dry food and trpe in meals, like 50% and 50%, my dog can definetely have enough calorie, but he may need more Vitamins and Minerals?(the 50% from tripe has more protein, but less other content) Like you said, “Green tripe is high in protein and naturally has a balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio but contains very low levels of each (only about 0.3% calcium on a dry matter basis if I recall correctly). ” Will my dog get less calcium and develop some health issue?
thanks!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi yevincent –

Yes – calcium needs to be converted to a dry matter basis for wet foods due to the high moisture content. Calculating calcium levels on a kcal. basis (versus percent of weight basis) is the most accurate way to evaluate the appropriateness of foods as it accounts for varying caloric densities between different foods. For a large breed puppy you’d want to feed a food with 3.5 g. calcium per 1,000 kcal. or less. I’ll walk you through the calculation. Let’s say the food comes in a standard 13.2 oz. can, has 400 kcal. per can and the company tells you there is 0.3% calcium on an as-fed basis.

1) Convert 13.2 oz. to grams (easier to perform calculations using grams): (13.2 oz.)(28 grams/1 oz.) = ~397 g.

2) Calculate how many grams of calcium are in the can of food: (397 g.)(0.003) = 1.19 g. calcium per can.

3) Calculate how many grams of calcium per 1,000 kcal.: (1.19 g. calcium per can)/(400 kcal. per can) = 0.00298 g. calcium per kcal. (0.00298 g. calcium per kcal.)(1,000 kcal.) = ~2.98 g. calcium per 1,000 kcal.

————————————

If you wanted the calcium level on a percent basis:

1) 100% – % Moisture = % Dry Matter
2) [(As Fed Calcium %)/(% Dry Matter)] X 100%

BTW – I’d highly recommend Tripett as a canned topper for large breed puppies. It’s not a complete and balanced food as it’s green tripe only but it makes a great topper if you’re feeding a balanced kibble. Green tripe is high in protein and naturally has a balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio but contains very low levels of each (only about 0.3% calcium on a dry matter basis if I recall correctly). The best part is dogs go nuts for it.

[yevincent]

Hi, I became a new dog lover today! I have a 3 months old lab, and he is doing great on his dry food. I am also looking for good wet food as topping. Because lab is a large breed, I would like to buy wet food with low calcium, but many wet foods don’t show how much calcium is. I just e-mail some companies, and they told me the data. BUT, what I get is something like 0.3%. I guess I should do some calculation on it? Most wet food has 75% water, so I should do: 0.3%/25%=1.2%. Am I doing right?
Thanks for any help!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Response #2:

Hi marty0203 –

Calcium and phosphorus levels really only affect the joint health of large and giant breed dogs during the growth phase. By the time a large or giant breed dog reaches two years of age it is either dysplastic or not dysplastic. For all dogs, calcium and phosphorus levels should be in balance with one another (between a 1:1 and 2:1 ratio of C:P) but this is really only a concern for those making homemade food, balanced commercial foods will have a proper ratio of calcium to phosphorus.

I strongly feel that a diet high in protein, moderate in fat and low in carbohydrates is best for most dogs. My three bloodhounds eat between 45% and 55% protein, 30% and 40% fat and <20% carbohydrates at each meal. If feeding a dry food I would search for one with no less than 30% protein.

I feel it’s important to feed a variety of foods. I no longer feed dry dog food, but when I did I switched to a new brand at the end of each bag and added a variety of canned and/or fresh food toppers daily. I would recommend finding at least 3 quality foods (preferable different brands with different protein sources) and switching every so often. If you can mix in canned or fresh food occasionally this is great too and canned and fresh foods are much more species-appropriate than dry food. Patty had a wonderful suggestion with recommending you check out online retailers. I live in a small area with a limited selection of quality pet products as well and, for this reason, do the majority of my shopping online. In addition to the sites she suggested, some others you may want to check out are wag.com, doggiefood.com and naturalk9supplies.com.

Some supplements that promote joint health are glucosmaine, chondroitin, MSM, esterified fatty acids (such as cetyl myristoleate) and hyaluronic acid. Some who foods supplements that promote joint health are sea cucumber, green lipped mussel, eggshell membrane, shark cartilage and velvet antler. Raw meaty bones (especially those high in cartilage such as trachea, gullet and chicken feet) and naturally rich in joint health promoting compounds such as chondroitin. Turmeric, tart cherry, boswellia, yucca, white willow, bromelian and high doses of omega 3 fatty acids (up to 300 mg. per 10 lbs.) all help to manage pain and inflammation. If your dogs don’t have any orthopedic issues, a basic glucosamine/chondroitin supplement would be fine for maintenance. If your dogs have any symptoms of pain and inflammation you may want to consider a combination of some of the joint health supplements listed in addition to one of the natural anti-inflammatories.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Marty –

Calcium and phosphorus levels are really only a concern for joint health during the growth phase. Once large/giant breed dogs reach two years of age their joints are fully developed and at this point they’re either dysplastic or not dysplastic. Calcium and phosphorus levels obviously need to be in balance with each other (between a 1:1 and 2:1 ratio of C:P) but this is true for all dogs, not just large/giant breeds, and isn’t a concern as long as you’re feeding a balanced commercial food (where balancing C:P ratios come into play are with homemade diets). I personally feel that a diet high in protein, moderate in fat and low in carbohydrates is healthiest and most species-appropriate for healthy dogs. My three bloodhounds eat between 45% and 55% protein, 30% and 40% fat and <15% carbohydrates at each meal. If feeding a dry food, I would search for one with no less than 30% protein. I also would not limit yourself to only one brand – variety is important. I no longer feed dry dog food, but when I did I switched brands and protein sources at the end of every bag and I added different canned and/or fresh food toppers daily. I would recommend finding a minimum of three foods your dogs can eat (preferably different brands with different protein sources). Patty had a wonderful suggestion with online ordering if selection is limited where you live – some other sites that have a big selection and offer free shipping in addition to the two she posted are Wag.com, Doggiefood.com and NaturalK9Supplies.com. There are several supplements you can give your dogs that help to promote joint health and/or have anti-inflammatory properties. If your dogs don’t have any orthopedic conditions or arthritis a basic glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM supplement would be fine to start off with. Some other supplements good for joint maintenance are hyaluronic acid and esterfied fatty acids (like cetyl myristoleate). Some whole food supplements that are beneficial for the joints are eggshell membrane, velvet elk antler, sea cucumber, green lipped mussel and shark cartilage. Raw meaty bones (especially those high in cartilage such as trachea, chicken feet and gullets) are very rich in naturally occurring chondroitin. For dogs experiencing pain/arthritis some natural anti-inflammatories include high doses of omega 3 fatty acids (up to 300 mg. per 10 lbs.), turmeric, boswellia, tart cherry, yucca, bromelian and white willow. Generally human supplements are cheaper and higher quality than supplements marketed to dogs, adjust the dosage accordingly (a good rule of thumb is a 25 lb. dog would get about 1/4 of the recommended human dose, 1/2 the human dose for a 50 lb. dog, 3/4 the human dose for a 75 lb. dog and full human dose for dogs >100 lbs.). Also – as you may already know – the most important factor to maintaining healthy joints and staving off arthritis in large and giant breed dogs is maintaining a healthy body weight, it’s very important that large/giant breeds don’t become overweight as this adds a lot of stress to the joints.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Cyndi –

Looks good. 🙂

That Dr. Harvey’s wholefood supplement and 1/2 tablet one a day multi should take care of the gaps and account for the lower organ meat content. I don’t think it looks like too much bone. The Deli Fresh, beef grind and tripe all fed in the a.m. will have balanced calcium to phosphorus ratios. The turkey necks and chicken backs fed in the evening technically should be within the “safe” 1:1 – 2:1 C:P ratio but on the high side, with the addition of the gizzards the meat to bone ratio should be spot on. My rule of thumb when feeding RMBs is 2:1 RBM to boneless ratio – so if my dogs get 1 lb. turkey necks they’d get 1/2 lb. gizzards/hearts/etc. If you were feeding too much bone you’d probably know it, just watch the stools.

[InkedMarie]

I’m not HDM but I will suggest a few choices that fit your criteria: Dr Tim’s, Brothers Complete, Annamaet are the first that come to mind. Mind you, I know nothing about large breed puppies or calcium but those foods have had no recalls, they all have grain free and I believe all are all life stages. Dr Tim’s will be the cheapest of those three and do keep in mind, you get what you pay for. Not all of the time but when you have a company that has had no recalls and has a good amount of meat in it, that’s going to cost you.
If you have two big dogs and have to keep at a lower priced food, you may not get the higher quality.

[aimee]

Hi Alshasta,

The effect of food components on the pH of the urine can be complex. The sulfur amino acids cysteine and methionine are acidifying and I believe they are found more often in animal based proteins vs. plant protein which is why “meat” is considered acidifying. I’ve also read that corn protein is relatively higher in sulfur AA. However, sulfur AA are only one contribution to the resulting urine pH. Other players are calcium, magnesium, sodium, potassium which are alkalinizing and phosphorus and chloride that are acidifying.

You can call the companies of the food you are interested in and ask what the average pH is of the urine of dogs on their diet. But many companies don’t track health parameters of the foods they produce. You can also predict pH based on the amounts of the previous mentioned components ( there are equations to do this). But the best information will be gotten from your own dog by measuring urine pH over various times of day while on a particular diet.

Increasing water intake to decrease urine concentration can also help decrease crystal formation. I’ve read that Apple Cider Vinegar increases urine pH because it has an “alkaline ash”. I don’t think I’d use Vit. C. I know it was tested in cats and it didn’t have an effect on urine pH but I don’t know what dose was tested.

[DieselJunki]

Ok so I think I got what I want to do down.

Moose is 50lbs (Just weighed him). Feeding him 4% of his body weight to start off I think and will adjust from there (He got really underweight at his boarding kennel, his hip bones are exposed, I’m pretty angry about it, someone could have called me and told me so I could tell them to up his food. Grr). I have decided to start off I’m going to do what HDM does and feed a grind in the morning and then an RMB at night which will probably be turkey necks.

If I were to feed 1lb of the chicken grind from MPC in the morning and then 1lb or turkey necks at night for a whole month does that sound like a pretty balanced diet for a 7 month old large breed (American Bull Dog) puppy? It’s the whole bone/calcium thing that kind of scares me.

Since coming back from his boarding kennel (I brought his food with him so he has been on THK since he has been there also) he has been super gassy and he poops 5 times a day at least and they are very very soft. I have upped his feedings to 2.5 cups in the morning and 2.5 at night to try and put some weight back on him so he doesn’t look so emaciated. I really am angry they allowed him to get that skinny. Really kicking myself for boarding him there, but they had excellent reviews and we even did a puppy class with the trainer and it seemed like a wonderful place. Can’t wait to get him right again.

[Magnus Campbell]

New to the forum.

Just got a 3 and half month old german shepherd/rotti mix from a local animal rescue.

I’ve been reading this forum the past few days trying to find the best food to buy our little guy (trying out some Wellness Core Puppy and Avoderm Rotating Menu – Trout and Peas), but for the past two days he won’t eat any kibble.

I also got him a few cans to top of the kibble and he will eat that. It looks like he doesn’t chew his kibble when eats it and then he ends up throwing it up (I assume because its upsetting his digestive system). He seems totally normal and not sick at all, just won’t eat the kibble and when he does he doesn’t chew and usually yacks later.

So, since he eats the wet and has no problem with it, what would be the best wet food to give him while we slowly ween him onto kibble again?

I want a wet food that would meet Hound Dog Mom’s recommendations for the dry food (i.e. a good calcium/phosphorus ratio). He’s going to be a big boy, so I want to make sure he’s getting what he needs to avoid joint/growing issues.

Thanks!!!

Nick

• This reply was modified 13 years ago by Magnus Campbell.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Has anyone used “Healthy Pet Products” brand raw food? I got a 5 lb. roll of the beef I was going to try out. Dr. Mike hasn’t reviewed it but it doesn’t look too bad and the price was reasonable for a pre-made beef-based food ($3.39/lb.).

Ingredients:
Certified Organic, Range-Fed and USDA Beef, Beef Hearts, Beef Lung, Beef Liver, Beef Kidney, Beef Tripe, Ground Beef Bone, Fresh Whole Eggs, Carrots, Celery, Sweet Potatoes, Garlic, Apples, Cranberries, Vegetable Fiber, Calcium, Dicalcium Phosphate, Choline Chloride, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Niacin, Iron Sulfate, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Copper Sulfate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Managanous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Biotin, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Sodium Selenite.

General Analysis:
51% protein and 25% fat (dry matter)

Not a huge fan of the inclusion of synthetic vitamins and minerals and the fat content is a bit lower than what I’d typically feed my crew but I figured it’d be worth a try and it’d be something different for the dogs (they don’t get commercial raw too often).

[Hound Dog Mom]

Assuming they’re comprising a reasonable portion of the diet (<20%), adding vegetables to increase the bulk of the dog's diet isn't going to result in nutrient absorption issues. These issues tend to arise when "isolated fibers" (non-whole food fibers) are fed in high quantities – i.e.) fruit pectin, beet pulp, pea fiber, cellulose, peanut hulls, bran, etc. It also appears that rapidly fermentable fibers (such as guar gum and pectins) are the fibers that decrease the availability of certain nutrients (namely zinc, calcium, iron and phosphorus), while fibers that contain more cellulose have little effect on mineral absorption. Vegetables are vitamin and mineral rich whole foods, to add a few spoonfuls of pumpkin or a small amount of steamed low glycemic vegetables to a meal is not going to result in a mineral deficiency – if anything it would enhance the nutrient value of the meal in addition to allowing the dog to eat a greater volume of food without having a significant impact on caloric intake.

[Mountain Man]

Hi, all! Greetings from Virginia. We are proud parents to a wonderful little Vizsla male, “Mountie,” who is a fantastic and sharp guy even in his infancy of 10.5 weeks old! This post marks our first official question, and we thank you in advance for your advice and opinions. Q: Which of the kibbles listed below would you recommend highest for our Vizsla puppy?

I tend to be a bit over-analytical (dear wife would call it “OCD”), and have researched in-depth (via manufacturer websites and here @ dogfoodadvisor) puppy-appropriate kibble, in hopes of transitioning Mountie ASAP from his initial staple of Purina Puppy Chow (which we consider to be a lower-quality feed) to a much-better kibble. Narrowed it down to these, and really value your advice:

1. Taste of the Wild High Prairie (Roasted Venison & Bison) Puppy Formula (by TOTW, contract-manufactured by Diamond; USA) (~$52 / 30lb = $1.72/lb). Pros: Good “bang for buck,” well-rounded GF kibble, tasty. Cons: Surprisingly-low DHA for puppy blend, manufactured by Diamond (which has had an inexcusable number of recalls).

2. As ACANA Puppy & Junior (by Champion Petfoods; Canada) is not avail. in the USA, consider alternatives from the “all stages” lineup: ACANA Wild Prairie Grain Free (~$67 / 28.6lb = $2.34/lb); ACANA Grasslands Grain Free or ACANA Pacifica Grain Free (~$80 / 28.6lb = $2.80/lb). Pros: Appears to offer great alternative to uber-rich Orijen (albeit, adult formulas only). Cons: Puppy formula not available in USA, uncertainty re: appropriate calcium levels of these “all stage” formulas, lacking in Yucca extract (which does wonders to curtail feces odor).

3. Orijen Puppy (by Champion Petfoods; Canada) (~$75 / 28.6lb = $2.62/lb). Pros: A+ quality kibble. Cons: Many testimonials of young puppies getting diarrhea from rich formula, lacking in Yucca extract (which does wonders to curtail feces odor).

4. As Earthborn Holistic Puppy Vantage (by Midwestern Pet Foods; USA) (~$47 / 28lb = $1.68/lb) isn’t GF, consider alternatives from the “all stages” lineup: Earthborn Holistic Select Grain Free Coastal Catch* / Great Plains Feast / Primitive Natural. Pros: Very, very good “bang for buck,” well-rounded GF kibble, made by Midwestern Pets (nearly as reputable as Champion). Cons: Uncertainty re: appropriate calcium levels of these “all stage” formulas, limited first-hand reviews available.

5. Maybe: GO! FIT + FREE Grain Free (Chicken, Turkey & Trout) Puppy (by Petcurean; Canada) (~$67 / 25lb = $2.68/lb). Pros: Excellent Canadian kibble (appears on par with Orijin and Acana) by Petcurean (nearly as reputable as Champion). Cons: Very pricey, given very limited first-hand reviews available.

6. Maybe: Annamaet Manitok or Aqualuk (by Annamaet Petfoods; USA) (~$84 / 30lb = $2.80/lb). Pros: Well-rounded GF kibble (and Mountie likes the taste). Cons: Uber-pricey, given limited first-hand reviews available, no puppy formulation, uncertainty re: appropriate calcium and DHA levels (unlisted) of these “all stage” formulas.

We would be indebted for as many opinions as possible re: which of the above you all would recommend transitioning Mountie to.

Thanks so much!!!

Corey & Michelle
Powhatan, Virginia

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Bigcoco –

1) 30% bone is way too much. As Patty said, bone should comprise 10% of the diet. The calcium to phosphorus ratio needs to be between 1:1 and 2:1 (ideally around 1.2 – 1.3:1). When the diet is 10% bone, 10% organ meat and 80% muscle meat the calcium to phosphorus ratio is right within that optimal range. A diet of 30% bone will be throwing that ratio of balance.

2) I checked out the product website and I can’t see where organs are included in the mixes? All I see is where they state 70% meat and 30% bone. If organ meat is not included in adequate quantities in the 70% “meat” you’ll need to feed organ meat. Organ meat should comprise 10% of the diet – 5% being liver and 5% being other organs (kidneys, lungs, spleen, pancreas, brain, etc.). Organ meat provides crucial vitamins and minerals that aren’t provided by muscle meat.

3) I can’t find where the level of vitamin e in the Bravo salmon oil is stated on their website and often the amounts added to fish oils are too low. I checked out the Pet Naturals of Vermont Daily Best supplement and there is little vitamin e in that either. Small dogs should get 50 – 100 IU per day, medium dogs 100 – 200 IU per day and large dogs 200 – 400 IU per day. Vitamin e requirements increase when fish oil (omega 3’s) is being supplemented, if adequate quantities are not received with omega 3 fatty acid supplementation the dog will eventually develop a vitamin e deficiency.

4) It’s also possible your dog could be deficient in certain trace nutrients – it’s hard telling without a nutrient analysis but because the Pet Naturals supplement is designed to be fed with a complete and balanced commercial food the amounts of vitamins and minerals are very low (as they are with most pet supplements). To ensure your dog is getting all the trace nutrients he needs I’d recommend either supplementing with a human multivitamin – base the dosage off a 100 lb. person (i.e. 25 lb. dog gets 1/4 human dosage, 50 lb. dog gets 1/2 human dosage, 75 lb. dog gets 3/4 human dosage, 100 lbs.+ gets human dosage) – or adding whole food supplements. I prefer to avoid synthetic supplements for my dogs so I feed a variety of nutrient-dense whole food supplements like kelp, alfalfa, bee pollen, spirulina, wheatgrass, glandulars, sprouted nuts & seeds, etc.

“Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown is a fantastic resource for raw feeding. It’s a really great book for beginners – short and easy to understand and includes AAFCO compliant recipes. You may want to checkout this book. It was a constant resource for me when I first started feeding homemade raw.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Rambo and Fancy –

Another “prescription” option that would be much higher quality than the Hill’s prescription food is one of the formulas from Rayne Clinical Nutrition. They have a low protein formula for dogs with liver issues. The ingredients are: sweet potato, water, egg, butternut squash, canola oil, sunflower oil, vitamin and mineral mixture, fish oil, calcium. It’s 11.2% protein on a dry matter basis. The foods come in trays, probably similar in texture to a canned food, and are made using human-grade ingredients. I have no idea what the prices are (not cheap, I’m sure), but if it’s something do-able for you it’d be something to talk to your vet about. I’m not sure if you have your dog on a support supplement – but Standard Process has some good supplements that are available through veterinarians only. They have a “Canine Hepatic Support” supplement that utilizes herbs and glandulars that are known to support the liver. Just some more things to think about.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi JillMcN –

Please be aware that using a pre-mix will not necessarily ensure that your dog is getting all the nutrients it needs. There are a few pre-mixes available that meet AAFCO nutrient profiles when prepared per instructions (The Honest Kitchen’s Preference, U-Stew, Urban Wolf, See Spot Live Longer Dinner Mix), but many have no claim of meeting the AAFCO’s nutrient standards and many of these – like Sojo’s, for example – don’t appear to be conplete and balanced when prepared according to the instructions. These unbalanced pre-mixes would be fine to use intermittently, but to feed long term you would need to know what supplements to add in order to balance the recipe. So if you’re planning on using a pre-mix long term, please make sure it meets the AAFCO’s nutrient standards.

The recipe you posted actually appears to be quite balanced, only a few things that I’d tweak. I’d cut the liver from 8 oz. to 4 oz. and give 4 oz. of another organ (kidney, lungs, spleen, etc.) I’d add another whole food supplement (such as alfalfa or wheatgrass) in addition to the kelp. I’d also highly recommend rotating in red meat for the poultry 50% of the time – this will help balance the fats as poultry is high in polyunsaturated fats (particularly linoleic acid) while red meat is high in saturated fats and low in polyunsaturated fats. Red meat is also much higher in iron and many micronutrients than poultry. There are several books available that contain complete and balanced recipes that are AAFCO compliant. “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown is my favorite – the recipes are for raw food but could easily be converted to cooked by substituting muscle meat for any RMB’s and adding 800-1,000 mg. calcium per pound of meat.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi August –

I like Tripett for a canned topper for large breed puppies – it’s pure canned green tripe (so it’s only for a topper, not a balanced meal). Green tripe naturally has a balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio but it has a very low concentration of both minerals. However, if you’re only using a small amount of canned food as a topper I wouldn’t worry about the calcium levels.

It’s really tough to recommend an amount to feed as energy requirements can vary drastically from dog to dog. The feeding guide on the bag would be a good place to start but keep in mind it’s only a starting point. Some dogs will need much more than what’s recommended on the feeding guide and others will need much less. You’ll need to assess your pup’s weight regularly and adjust his portions accordingly to ensure he maintains optimum body condition. He’ll be growing quickly and for the first 8 months or so you’ll find that you’ll need to adjust portions frequently.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi shelties mom –

You only want to use one calcium supplement. You can stick with one or rotate every so often. I’ve actually never used bone meal as a calcium source, but the thing to keep in mind if you want to use bone meal is that it contains both calcium AND phosphorus so you’ll have to add more bone meal than you would a pure calcium supplement (such as calcium citrate) to get the ratio in balance. Most bone meal has a 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio but it can vary by brand. Dr. Pitcairn’s book “Natural Health for Dogs and Cats” contains a guide guide for balancing recipes with bone meal, I’m sure there are a lot of websites out there that explain it as well. If you’re using a pure calcium supplement, the general rule is about 800 mg. per 1 lb. muscle meat and 1,000 mg. per 1 lb. organ meat – as long as you follow that general rule the end result should be balanced. Sometimes slightly more or less can be used depending on the type of meat – i.e.) fattier meats will be lower in phosphorus and thus require less calcium than leaner meats. In my boneless beef recipe above, after the nutrient analysis I found that I only needed 1,400 mg. calcium to get the ratio where I wanted it. The tripe didn’t require any calcium as tripe naturally has a balanced C:P ratio, 85% lean is a little fattier and contains less phosphorus than extra lean meat and my offal blend contains trachea and gullet which only have slightly more phosphorus than calcium. There really wasn’t any reason behind my choosing calcium citrate other than it was available in powder form – I prefer to use powdered supplements when possible. You could certainly use another calcium supplement such as eggshell calcium, calcium lactate, etc. Just make sure the supplement contains ONLY calcium – some add other vitamins and minerals which, if not accounted for, could over-supplement your dog’s meal. I’ve heard that certain calcium supplements are better assimilated than others, but I really wouldn’t worry too much about what type you’re using as long as you’re getting the amount right.

[Hound Dog Mom]

The dogs are moving through the venison supply quickly so I’ve formulated their next menu. I’ve always fed my dogs so much variety and their yearly blood work has always come back normal, so I’ve never been overly concerned about nutrient profiles. This time however, I decided to actually take the time to run a full nutrient analysis on their new menu. What a headache! It took me a few days of slaving over the calculator, however I’m happy to say their menu exceeds the AAFCO nutrient profile for all life stages. My main focus for this menu was cutting costs, while maximizing nutrition and variety. Because I know this menu is “complete and balanced” and there’s a lot of variety, along with the fact that this will slice about $100 of the monthly food bill – I’ll probably be sticking with this menu for awhile. Breakfasts are divided into three equal portions (one portion for each dog) and dinners are what I would feed to each dog individually.

Mondays/Wednesdays/Fridays

Breakfast:

Makes 3 Servings:
1 lb. Ground Beef
1 lb. Green Beef Tripe
1 lb. Beef Offal Mix (Heart, Liver, Kidney, Spleen, Lungs, Trachea, Gullet)
3 eggs
3.75 oz. Tin Sardines Packed in Water
1 C. Kefir
16 oz. Frozen Broccoli, Cauliflower, Carrot Mix*
1 Bunch Fresh Parsley, Minced
2 tbs. Whole Food Supplement**
2 tbs. Ground Hemp Seed
2 tbs. Ground Sprouted Sunflower Seeds
1 tbs. Coconut Oil
1 tbs. Apple Cider Vinegar with Mother
1/4 tsp. Himalayan Crystal Salt
3,000 mg. Cod Liver Oil
1,400 mg. Calcium Citrate
1,500 mg. Fruit Concentrate (Blueberry, Cherry, Orange, Strawberry, Raspberry, Cranberry)
1,050 mg. mg. Raw Multiple Glandular (Liver, Brain, Stomach, Kidney, Heart, Spleen, Pancreas, Duodenum, Thyroid, Thymus, Adrenal, Parotid, Pituitary)
600 IU Mixed Tocopherols and Tocotrienols

Dinner:
2 Turkey Necks (approx. 12 – 16 oz.)
6 oz. Turkey Hearts

Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday

Breakfast:

Makes 3 Servings:
12 oz. Skin-On Chicken Necks, ground
12 oz. Chicken Gizzards, ground
12 oz. Chicken Hearts, ground
12 oz. Chicken Livers, ground
10 oz. Frozen Spinach*
10 oz. Frozen Butternut Squash*
8 oz. Canned Oysters
1 C. Kefir
2 tbs. Whole Food Supplement**
2 tbs. Milled Flaxseed
2 tbs. Sprouted Pumpkin Seeds
5 Cloves Garlic, minced
1 tbs. Coconut Oil
1 tbs. Apple Cider Vinegar with Mother
1/4 tsp. Himalayan Crystal Salt
3,000 mg. Cod Liver Oil
1,500 mg. Fruit Concentrate (Blueberry, Cherry, Orange, Strawberry, Raspberry, Cranberry)
1,440 mg. Colostrum
600 IU Mixed Tocopherols and Tocotrienols

Dinner:
Pork Neck (approx. 20 oz.)

Sundays

FAST: 1 C. Broth (made with THK’s Ice Pups) with Animals’ Apawthecary Detox Tincture morning and night.

*All vegetables are cooked and pureed.
**Whole Food Supplement: 1 part kelp, 1 part spirulina, 1 part alfalfa, 1 part wheatgrass, 1 part bee pollen powder.

http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a501/hagelult/NutrientAnalysis_zps9f3e4b46.png

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Sheltie’s Mom –

The calcium to phosphorus ratio of chicken feet is 1.06:1, whereas the calcium to phosphorus ratio of chicken necks is about 1.6:1. The calcium to phosphorus ratio of both chicken feet and necks are in balance, however the ratio in the feet is so low that it won’t provide enough calcium excess calcium to balance out the phosphorus in the breast and thigh meat. Chicken necks and backs are the best way to balance out the phosphorus of boneless meat in a chicken-based recipe. You could certainly feed the feet on some days but on those days I would recommend supplementing enough calcium to balance out the phosphorus in the boneless meat you’re using (about 800-1,000 mg. calcium per 1 lb. boneless muscle meat, 1,000 – 1,200 mg. per pound of boneless organ meat).

[Hound Dog Mom]

Yes, it does contain corn.

Royal Canin Yorkshire Terrier 28 Formula

Ingredients:
Chicken Meal, Brewers Rice, Brown Rice, Chicken Fat, Chicken, Corn Gluten Meal, Dried Egg Powder, Barley, Natural Chicken Flavor, Cellulose, Dried Beet Pulp (sugar removed), Anchovy Oil, Dried Brewers Yeast, Potassium Chloride, Soya Oil, Fructo-oligosaccharides, Salmon Meal, Calcium Carbonate, Sodium Tripolyphosphate, Choline Chloride, Dried Brewers Yeast Extract (source of Mannan-oligosaccharides) , Taurine*, Vitamins [DL-Alpha Tocopherol (source of Vitamin E), Inositol, Niacin Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C*), D-Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Riboflavin Supplement (Vitamin B2), Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Vitamin A Acetate, Folic Acid, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement], Magnesium Oxide, Borage Oil, Trace Minerals [Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Sodium Selenite, Calcium Iodate], Glucosamine Hydrochloride*, L-Carnitine*, DL-Methionine, Marigold Extract (Calendula officinalis L.), Tea (Green Tea Extract), Chondroitin Sulfate*, preserved with Natural Tocopherols (source of Vitamin E), Citric Acid and Rosemary Extract

Brewer’s Rice: Leftover debris from human-food production, no nutritional value.

Corn Gluten Meal: 85% of corn in the US is genetically modified, according to the NCAP corn gluten meal is “a by-product of processing corn to make corn starch and corn syrup.”; gluten is cheap and of low bioavailability and used to falsely boost the protein content of a food; corn is also highly susceptible to aflatoxin contamination.

Natural Chicken Flavor: Source of MSG

Dried Beet Pulp: 95% of sugar beets grown in the US are Monsanto’s genetically-modified variety.

Dried Brewer’s Yeast: Potential source of MSG.

Soya Oil: 93% of soy is genetically modified.

And look at that huge long list of synthetic vitamins and minerals at the end – they need to add all those because the main ingredients are of little to no nutritional value.

If you can afford this, you can afford much better for your dog. You’re paying a premium price for a mediocre food.

[DieselJunki]

I would vouch for what Hound Dog Mom has to say. She knows her stuff. Seriously go to the Diet and Health Issues forum and look at the first topic there about Large and Giant Breed Nutrition. You will find ALL your answers in that topic. I know I did.

My breeder also suggested a low protein diet and extra calcium to fix my dogs crooked leg. Turns out I was feeding a diet much to high in calcium and in doing more research on the calcium issue learned that it is the high calcium that causes most issues. Not the protein. Took him to the vet, got a splint right off the bat, took splint off in 4 days, completely fixed his leg. Haven’t had an issue since switching his food and getting that splint.

[soho]

Hi lovelibby,

Hyperlipidemia can be caused by badly controlled Diabetes. It can also be caused by other things.
The first thing I would do if I were you is try to tightly control my dog’s diabetes.

I would fast him or her for 24 hours while I figured out what dose of long acting insulin such as Lantus, Ultralente or Levemir controlled his basal levels of glucose. The basal level of glucose is what the liver constantly produces throughout the day and has nothing to do with meals. You might have to do the fast more than once (with plenty of days in between) until you calculate the correct dosage of long acting insulin. Then you can calculate the mealtime dose of rapid acting insulin such as Novolog, Humalog or Apidra. You would start with a very low dose and slowly increase the dosage until you find the dose of rapid acting insulin that adequately controls the glucose from your dog’s meals.

The beauty of a two insulin regimen is your dogs meals are not tied to any particular time of day and can vary in size. You can give the dose of rapid acting insulin immediately after a meal this way you give the correct dose of insulin for the amount of food your dog actually eats with no worries if he doesn’t finish his whole meal.

You must test your dog’s blood glucose levels a lot in the beginning while you figure everything out!!! I would test upon arising, right before meals, 2 hours after each meal and at bedtime.

The regimen I outlined is not a simple one but it can be done with the help of the right healthcare professional and I believe it pays off in the long run with a happier and healthier dog.

I would never feed my dog Hills W/D. Here are the ingredients:

Whole Grain Corn, Powdered Cellulose, Corn Gluten Meal, Chicken Liver Flavor, Chicken By-Product Meal, Soybean Mill Run, Chicken, Dried Beet Pulp, Soybean Oil, Lactic Acid, Caramel (color), Calcium Sulfate, Potassium Chloride, Flaxseed, L-Lysine, Choline Chloride, vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C) , Niacin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Calcium Carbonate, Taurine, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), L-Tryptophan, L-Carnitine, Iodized Salt, Mixed Tocopherols added to retain freshness, Citric Acid added to retain freshness, L-Threonine, Beta-Carotene, Phosphoric Acid, Rosemary Extract.

Dog’s with diabetes are still dogs. They still need a lot of protein. Fat should vary with the individual dog’s health, issues, diseases, etc. The hills W/D diet in my opinion is not fit for any dog to eat. While hills tries to focus on the dog’s diabetes , they completely fail to meet the nutritional needs of ANY canine. Hills addresses the dogs diabetes with high fiber (29.5%), high carbohydrates (51%) , low fat (8.7%) and low protein (18.7%).

As far as diet goes I discuss this in earlier posts in this topic.

[Hound Dog Mom]

DoggieDoc22 –

“One last thing, don’t buy into the marketing machine and get all hung up on ingredients. Your dog needs nutrients, not ingredients. Its protein, fat, and carbohydrate levels that are important, not corn, soy, potato, etc.”

Question, if a new meal replacement bar came onto the market for humans that contained all the essential vitamins, minerals and amino acids (synthetically added) a human needs plus adequate levels of protein, fat and carbohydrates and the main ingredients were refined grains, high fructose corn syrup and partially-hydrogenated oil would you quit eating real food and eat this for every meal? I mean it contains the necessary “nutrients”, right? Hopefully that analogy makes you understand how ridiculous your statement is.

Ingredients matter. As I told you on another thread – you can’t put ground chuck into recipe and get filet mignon in the end. Garbage is garbage. Yes, all living things need nutrients but these nutrients (or at least the majority of these nutrients) should be derived from fresh, whole, species-appropriate foods. I’ll give you some food (no pun intended) for thought.

1) Many health organizations (including the U.S. Cancer Institute and the United Kingdom Health Department) advise humans to get their nutrients from whole foods and not synthetic supplements (shouldn’t our pets do the same?). When dealing with synthetic nutrients, the chance for overdose is much higher – chance of overdose is minimal when consuming whole foods. Errors in compounding synthetic concoctions happen and pets die – for example the excess vitamin d recall. You don’t have to worry about there “accidentally” being too much vitamin d when the vitamin d source is real, whole foods.

2) You say that the inclusion of ingredients such as “corn, soy and potato” are inconsequential – what matters it the “guaranteed analysis” of the end result. So a mixture of corn, soy and potato is perfectly fine as long as the protein, fat and carbohydrate levels are where they need to be and the food is pumped up with artificial nutrients to account for the lack of nutrients in the ingredients themselves, right? Well let’s examine these ingredients that you say are fine to feed:

-Soy: contains anti-nutrients which hinder the ability of digestive enzymes needed for proper digestion; contains phytates which limit the body’s ability to absorb key nutrients such as zinc, magnesium and calcium; loaded with isoflavones that disrupt endocrine function and have been linked to infertility and breast cancer (in humans); contains goitrogens which block the synthesis of thyroid hormones; most soy is genetically modified (studies in animals have linked consumption of GMO ingredients to negative hepatic, pancreatic, renal and reproductive side effects that may alter the hematological, biochemical and immunologic parameters).
-Corn: contains lectins, has a high glycemic index, one of the most genetically modified crops (see above), highly susceptible to aflatoxin contamination.
-Potatoes: also commonly genetically modified (see above), high glycemic index, contain lectins, can contain the toxin solanine.

3) Most of the low-grade foods that contain corn, soy and the like also contain animal by-products. Are animal by-products inherently bad? No – my dogs love fresh organ meat, chicken feet, beef tracheas, etc. (from animals slaughtered for human consumption) and I love allowing them to eat fresh, quality by-products. However fresh quality by-products are not what is in pet food. Many grocery store quality brands of dog food have tested positive for pentobarbital – this means that the by-products contain euthanized animals (potentially even dogs and cats). Pento is recognized as a serious danger to wildlife. Wildlife that feed on disposed euthanized animals often die of pento poisoning – so is this a safe ingredient to be feeding to our beloved pets? I think not. Also – most by-product meals, while undoubtedly high in protein, contain very low quality protein derived from feathers, beaks and the like. This protein is poorly digested and puts a strain on the animals kidneys over time (unlike high quality, digestible protein derived from fresh meat).

Your view of pet food ingredients is simplistic, to say the least. It’s necessary to look at the bigger picture, food isn’t as simple as “fat, protein and carbohydrates.”

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi again!

If you’re just using the canned as a mix in I wouldn’t be too concerned about the calcium. A trick to stretch the canned out is take just a couple spoonfuls, mash it up, mix in some warm water to make a liquid and stir in the kibble and coat it all in the liquid. If you can find it Tripett is great for a topper and can get even the most finicky dogs to eat – a little goes a long way. Also, since it’s just canned green tripe the calcium levels are very low. It’s not a bad thing if you have to add canned food to get him to eat, canned food is (generally) much healthier and more species-appropriate than dry food.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi DieselJunki –

It looks to me like your pup is knuckling over. You breeder gave you horrible advice, supplementing with calcium and reducing the protein will not help and could potentially make the issue worse. Calcium needs to be in balance with phosphorus – the ratio needs to be between 1:1 and 2:1 calcium to phosphorus. Commercial foods have a balanced ratio, so by supplementing with addition calcium you will likely throw the ratio off. You never ever want to supplement a balanced diet with calcium (unless advised by a veterinarian) and especially not for a growing puppy. Too much calcium in the diet actually contributes to developmental orthopedic diseases, such as knuckling over. Knuckling over, along with excess calcium, can be caused by overfeeding, having your pup walk around on inappropriate flooring (slippery floors) or by feeding low quality foods containing nutrients that have a low bio-availability. The good news is, if this is knuckling over (which I suspect it is) it can easily be reversed with no permanent damage. Get your dog on a balanced quality food with appropriate calcium levels and monitor intake (DO NOT overfeed). Also, get your pup to a vet asap! The vet should check to see if the dog has any parasites or underlying issues that could be causing nutrient deficiencies and the legs may need to be splinted for awhile. The following is some info on knuckling over:

http://vri.cz/docs/vetmed/51-2-71.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2905020/ .

You may also want to check out the articles posted on large breed puppy nutrition (if you haven’t already):

/forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/

[billhill]

SOURCES OF BIOTIN, FROM A WEBSITE ON DIET FOR PREGNANT MOTHERS, SURELY APPLICABLE TO DOGS AS WELL:

Swiss Chard – This green plant is a top producer of biotin. It’s also a great part of a healthy salad choice that will provide antioxidants and help balance a diet.
Carrots – Carrots contain a supply of biotin, as well as beta-carotene, which helps with general eye health.
Almonds, Walnuts and Other Nuts – A variety of nuts supply the body with biotin, and are a portable way to get proteins and other nutrition into a diet.
Chicken Eggs – Eggs are a source of biotin, although it’s important to note that eating a diet unusually high in egg whites can actually be a catalyst for a biotin deficiency. That’s because a specific element in the egg whites binds to the element and prevents it from being distributed properly. It’s important to always consider how eggs are added to a diet in order to prevent this kind of vitamin deficiency.
Goat’s Milk and Cow’s Milk – In addition to calcium and other healthy items, milks are also a source of biotin for the body.
Berries and Fruits – Some types of berries, including strawberries and raspberries, can get the body a significant amount of biotin. These fruits also provide antioxidants and health benefits, as part of a natural, whole food approach to eating. Experts recommend buying local and organic when possible.
Halibut – In addition to being “brain food,” this fish also contains large amounts of biotin. Think about adding it as an occasional entre.
Vegetables – Other vegetables like onions, cucumbers and cauliflower all contain biotin, and are healthy ways to fit this vitamin into meals.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Melissa –

These are the foods I would recommend:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFY183Q0NVRXlidWc/edit

Any of the foods on my list would be appropriate for all life stages. All life stages is the same as a formula that is labeled for puppies or growth. The Earthborn Holistic Coastal Catch and Meadow Feast are both grain-free appropriate for large breed puppies. I know I looked into Performatrin Ultra grain-free and either the calcium levels were too high or the company never responded to my inquiry about calcium levels (I can’t remember, I made the list quite awhile ago). I wouldn’t feed the grain-inclusive Earthborn because it’s too low in protein, I think the grain-free varieties are much better. All the foods on my list are grain-free, but whether you want to feed grain-inclusive or grain-free is really up to you. I personally think grains aren’t appropriate for dogs and feed all my dog grain-free. If you do go with a grain-inclusive food be sure to check the calcium level (under 3.5 g. calcium per 1,000 kcal.) and try to find a variety with at least 30% protein (anything below that is really too low, especially for a puppy – imo).

[soho]

Hi Safarisam

These recommendations are just my opinion and I am NOT a vet. This is just what I would do if I were in your situation. I would try to find a holistic or integrative vet to be part of your healthcare team in dealing with your dogs diet and his diabetes!

There are many many options for your pom. Since you mentioned you would love to make his food here is one option. Buy ground turkey, ground beef and chicken breasts from your local supermarkets. Buy some frozen vegetables, no onions or starchy veggies like potatoes and no grains. His diet should be at least 80% meat and no more then 20% vegetables.

You can steam the veggies and then mash them up or you can puree them in a blender or food processor without cooking them. The idea is to make the veggies easier to digest since dogs don’t process veggies that well. The meats can be lightly cooked using low heat. I would be cautious about giving raw food to your dog at this point because it is hard for anyone to judge the condition of his immune system and the damage that has been done from the diabetes. A good immune system is necessary to handle the bacteria from raw food.

Since there are no bones in this diet a calcium supplement is necessary. If it is made for dogs it will have the dosages on the label. A multivitamin is also necessary because it is difficult for the home prepared diet to be complete and balanced without adding vitamins and minerals. Again if it is made for dogs the dosage will be on the label. I would also add some digestive enzymes and some sardines for their omega 3 content. The sardines would be part of the 80% meat portion of the diet. additional toppers like green tripe and organ meats can be rotated in the 80% part of the diet. Toppers should be no more then 20% of the total diet.

This is a start and there are many more options than the one I have given. A good book for you to help with your dogs diet would be see spot live longer by Steve Brown.

I wish you and your pomeranian the very best!

[DogFoodie]

Hi Panda,

It looks like this food contains white potato. Give it some time, but if the problem isn’t resolved with your new choice, you might want to refer back to Hound Dog Mom’s suggestion to choose another food that doesn’t contain white potato and possibly a novel protein.

Here are the ingredients for your new food:

Ingredient Listing/Guaranteed Analysis
Sweet Potatoes, Salmon, Salmon Meal, Canola Oil, Potato Fiber, Natural Flavor, Sodium Chloride, Salmon Oil (a source of DHA), Flaxseed, Potassium Chloride, DL-methionine, Choline Chloride, Natural Mixed Tocopherols, Taurine, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Folic Acid.

[Hound Dog Mom]

weimlove –

It’s great that Shadow loved the raw fish – but be careful about which types of fish you feed raw. Salmon, trout and steelhead that are caught in the Pacific can carry “salmon poisoning.” If you want to feed any of these types of fish from this region they should be frozen for a least 2 weeks to kill the parasite.

I make my own wholefood multivitamin/mineral. I order my ingredients from starwest-botanicals.com. I mix equal parts: kelp, alfalfa, spirulina, chlorella, bee pollen, turmeric and garlic powder. You can do this if you want or if you want to make it simpler you can just mix equal parts kelp and alfalfa and that should be plenty. I’d give a dog the size of yours about 1 1/2 tsp. per day. You’ll need to supplement with vitamin e, for a dog the size of yours I’d give 200 i.u. daily or 400 i.u. every other day. Any vitamin e for humans will do, but I order mine from vitacost – I use the “Vitamin E & Tocotrienol Complex” because it has all 4 tocopherols and all 4 tocotrienols (most vitamin e supplements just contain alpha tocopherol). For fish oil I’m currently using Iceland Pure Sardine & Anchovy blend and Carlson cod liver oil, but any quality fish oils will do (I like buying in liquid form so I can mix it in with the food, but you could certainly get capsules if your dog will eat them). This is optional, but I do give my dogs coconut oil every other day and a plant-based omega 3-6-9 on the opposite days as the coconut oil.

I’d love to make you a menu plan, but because I don’t know exactly which cuts of meat will be available to you it’ll be more like a “template”. I’ll give some options and just use what you can get. One of my dogs – Gertie – is an active 70 lb. 2 year old as well so I’ll give you measurements based on what I would feed her. Obviously metabolisms vary from dog to dog so if you find this is too much or too little food feel free to reduce or increase the amounts, just keep everything proportionate. I’m also not sure how many times a day you feed, but I’ll assume you feed two meals a day.

Breakfast:
-5 mornings per week feed 12 oz. boneless red muscle meat (beef, lamb, buffalo, etc. – can use lean ground, chunks, heart, tripe, or some combination of these). 2 mornings per week feed 6 oz. liver and 6 oz. of another organ or any combination of other organs (kidney, spleen, lungs, pancreas, brain, etc.)
-1/2 C. cooked & pureed vegetables (whichever vegetables you want, can add fruit a couple times per week).
-Optional: 1/4 C. cottage cheese, kefir, plain yogurt or goat’s milk (can do this every day or a few days a week)
-1 1/2 tsp. whole food supplement (like a kelp-alfalfa blend or my homemade blend)
-1 tsp. fish oil (alternate between a fish body oil and cod liver oil)
-Optional: 1/2 tsp. coconut oil or a plant-based omega oil (like flax or evening primrose)
-Once or twice a week: 1 tsp ground pumpkin seeds, pecans, almonds or sunflower seeds
-3/4 tsp. ground egg shell (cheap source of calcium, leave eggshells out to dry then put them through a coffee grinder the next day) or 600-750 mg. of a calcium supplement of your choice (if your butcher sells meat/bone grinds for large animals like beef you could certainly use these and omit the calcium, but most butchers don’t have the equipment to grind heavy bones, so the calcium will have to be added separately)
-200 i.u. vitamin e (or 400 i.u. every other day)

*You can feed this same meal for breakfast daily, just rotate in new protein sources, switch up the extras (cottage cheese, yogurt, nuts and seeds, etc.) and feed a variety of vegetables and fruits.

Dinner (I often alternate between these two dinners for my dogs):
-Chicken back or leg quarter
-8 oz. Gizzards or hearts or boneless chicken (ground or chunks)
-Whole egg with shell
OR
-2 Turkey necks (about 6 oz. each)
-8 oz. Turkey hearts or gizzards or boneless turkey (ground or chunks)

Remember the more variety you can feed the better! Feed as many different protein sources as you can, using as many types of organs as possible, different vegetables and different fats. Each meal doesn’t have to supply every possible vitamin and mineral your dog needs, but over time the diet should balance. So the more variety you can feed the wider variety of nutrients your dog will get.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Blue Corgi –

No, the ingredients aren’t just made up. Knowing how to balance a homemade diet is VERY important. Feeding an unbalanced diet can result in some serious health issues if the unbalanced diet is fed long term. It’s wonderful that you’re interested in feeding your dogs a homemade diet – I STRONGLY feel that when done correctly a homemade diet is the healthiest thing for a dog.

Ingredients you use will differ slightly based on whether you’re planning on feeding raw or cooked. But with either diet the most important thing is getting the correct calcium to phosphorus ratio. The ratio of calcium to phosphorus needs to be between 1:1 and 2:1. To achieve this when feeding a raw diet with bone you will want to feed 80% boneless muscle meat, 10% organ meat and 10% bone and for cooked diets or raw diets without bone you want to feed 90% boneless muscle meat, 10% organ meat and add 800-1,000 mg. calcium per pound of meat and organ fed. Green tripe is a rare exception to this rule as green tripe naturally has a 1:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio. You should feed an even mixture of red meat and poultry – don’t feed predominately one or the other as they have different types of fats. I give my dogs red meat in the a.m. and poultry in the p.m. As far as being “exact every time” – you don’t have to be exact every time but you do need to be exact over time. This means, if you decide you want to feed a meal that’s 20% organ meat at breakfast you can just feed a meal without organ meat at dinner – this would still balance out to your dog getting 10% organ meat in its diet. Balance over time.

You should feed around 80% meat – the other 20% can be vegetables, fruits, extras and supplements. All veggies should be cooked and pureed as dogs don’t produce the enzyme cellulase to breakdown the cellulose in raw veggies – cooking and pureeing in a sense “pre-digests” the veggies so the dog can derive some nutrients from them. Extras are optional and would include things like eggs, cottage cheese, yogurt, kefir, etc.

For supplements I would recommend adding a form of animal-based omega 3’s (fish body oil or an oily fish such as sardines), vitamin e and super-foods (kelp, alfalfa, spirulina, etc.). I also give my dogs Carlson cod liver oil every other day for some extra vitamin d (cod liver oil should be limited though as it’s very high in vitamin a, I feed Carlson because it has the lowest vitamin a levels). You can add a multi-vitamin if you wish but if you’re feeding a wide variety of foods and adding the supplements I mentioned I don’t think it would be necessary. If you’re feeding a cooked diet you may want to consider supplementing with enzymes. If you don’t feed kefir, yogurt and/or green tripe on a regular basis you may also want to consider a probiotic supplement a few days of the week.

Lastly – keep this in mind because it’s critical when feeding a homemade diet – variety! Feed many different protein sources, many different types of organs, different fruits, veggies and extras and rotate different supplements into the mix every once in awhile. This will help to ensure that over time your dogs get all the nutrients they need.

Another option to make things easier – if you don’t feel comfortable making food from scratch yet – would be to use a premix. With a premix you generally just add meat and water – the mix contains all the fruits, veggies and supplements your dog needs. Some good premixes are The Honest Kitchen’s Preference, Sojo’s, Urban Wolf, Birkdale Petmix and Dr. Harvey’s.

I would recommend checking out dogaware.com – there’s a lot of good information on homemade diets there. I would also recommend reading Steve Brown’s book “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet.” If you check out the “menu” topic on the raw thread I’ve posted my dogs’ menu so you can get an idea of what a balanced diet should look like.

I hope that helps. Feel free to post any questions! Quite a few of us here feed homemade food and can help you out. 🙂

[aimee]

Hound Dog Mom,
That is a great compilation of articles on large breed growth. The most important tenets of large breed nutrition are to keep the puppy lean during the growth period and to feed foods that have a calcium level near 1% (dry diets).

Calcium levels over 1.3 % in a dry food are likely approaching or above the safe upper limit for growth. Since there is no benefit to feeding these higher calcium products to a growing large breed and there may well be risk to the developing skeleton, IMHO they should not be fed during the growth period of a large/giant breed puppy.

Unfortunately, manufactures may state their foods are appropriate for large breed growth when they exceed the recommended level and may even say it is a dietary factor other than calcium that is responsible for the growth problems seen in large breeds. It really is a buyer beware situation as even foods labeled as “large breed puppy” sometimes exceed the recommended level of calcium.

On a energy basis the recommended amount of calcium is 3 grams/1000 kcals. The National Research Council sets the safe upper limit for calcium during growth at 4.5 grams/1000kcals. The European Pet Food Association sets the limit at 4 grams calcium /1000 kcals in puppies less than 6 months. AAFCO allows 7.14 grams/1000 kcals which is why large breed puppy owners have to be vigilant.

Additionally, as you pointed out, when evaluating calcium levels in foods you have the know the actual calcium level in the food. Manufactures often report min. calcium levels so that their foods appear to have a calcium level lower than what they actually have.