[Dana G]

I’m happy to have found this forum because I have a big challenge I could use some help with. I have a 9 yr. old Havanese who recently had a Calcium Oxalate stone removed. She also has Gallbladder Sludge and must have a very low fat diet. The challenge is finding a low oxalate food that is also very low in fat. The vet wants to put her on Royal Canin Urinary SO Moderate Calorie Dry. It meets the criteria BUT it contains a lot of corn which my dog doesn’t tolerate.

So I’ve been on an exhaustive search for a commercial food that can work for her. The only possibility I’ve found is Earthborn Holistic Weight Control. It is low enough in fat, but the issue is whether it is low enough in oxalate. The concern is the fifth ingredient, Tomato Pomace, which is high oxalate. I called Earthborn to find out what percentage of the total ingredients tomato pomace is. The gentleman said he thought 5% but to be sure, he would ask the nutritionist to call me. After waiting a week I called again only to be told the man I spoke with had just retired, and no one knew anything about them having a nutritionist. The customer service rep said there was only one person who MIGHT be able to help me so I left a message for him. It’s been a week and no call. Since their website claims to be endorsed by Dog Food Advisor, I’m hoping someone on this forum knows something about this company. So my first question is, any ideas on how to get ingredient/nutrient info from Earthborn?

Second question — The only ingredient in this food with significant oxalate content is the tomato pomace. If I assume that the pomace is in fact 5% of total ingredients, does that make this food low oxalate? I’m just not sure if a small % of a very high oxalate ingredient equals a low oxalate food.

I know this is some pretty specific info I’m looking for so I will appreciate any thoughts/advice I receive. I’m out of ideas. If I can’t make this food work, I’ll have to do home cooked.

Thanks.

[C4D]

M Y,

These are just terrible treats. It doesn’t matter where they come from. They have been sold off to Smuckers now & there are various ingredient labels depending on which site you go to. I can’t even find the actual ingredients from the company that owns it. The website doesn’t even link to anything about the products. The ingredient panel on any of the sites is just awful, with all kinds of coloring and artificial additives. I think Petfooddirect might be the older formula, but they may still have it in stock. Either way, dogs don’t need BHA, sugar, 4 different artificial colors and a bunch of other preservatives in their treats!

Big Heart Brands website:
http://www.bigheartpet.com/

Bacon flavor on Petfooddirect:

Ingredients

Chicken, Corn Syrup, Soy Flour, Wheat Flour, Corn Starch, Water, Propylene Glycol, Animal Fat (BHA Used As A Preservative), Animal Digest, Calcium Sulfate, Soy Protein Concentrate, Sugar, Beef, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Phosphoric Acid, Titanium Dioxide, Sorbic Acid (Used As A Preservative), Red 40 Lake, Garlic Powder, Natural Smoke Flavor, Iron Oxide, BHA (Used As A Preservative), Citric Acid (Used As A Preservative).

Bacon flavor on Pet360, Target & Walmart:

Ingredients

Wheat Flour, Soybean Flour, Water, Beef. Glycerin, Whole Corn Sugar, Bacon, Corn Syrup, Natural Smoke Flavor, Bone Phosphate, Salt, Potassium Sorbate (Used As A Preservative), Phosphoric Acid, Red 40 Lake, Glyceryl Monostearate, Yellow 6 Lake, Titanium Dioxide, BHA (Used As A Preservative), Yellow 5 Lake, Blue 1 Lake.

[CircaRigel]

Carolyn,
Congratulations on your puppy! I’ve not known a Golden Mountain Doodle, but having known some Bernese Mountain Dogs, a Newfiedoodle, and a number of golden and labradoodles, and based on my experiences with them, I think you’re in for a wonderful experience!

I would hesitate to feed Wellness right now (or Eagle Pack, Holistic Select, or Old Mother Hubbard). All of the kibbles made by Wellpet right now contain green tea extract, which a number of studies has shown can cause liver toxicity in dogs. While the amount in the foods is probably not enough to have much of a toxic effect, those studies were on grown dogs, and puppies may react differently. Prior to my discovering this, I had tried to make a slow transition to Wellness for my own puppy, and he developed diarrhea immediately, even though he only had a couple of tablespoons of the food with his first meal. I had thought it perhaps just a simple sensitivity, until I looked at other Vine reviews of it on Amazon (I occasionally review things on Amazon in their Vine program- the items are random, and from time to time they offer a quality dog food I wish to try Galen on). Approximately 10% of the dogs that tested it on Vine became ill, in two cases, extremely ill. After I did some checking, I found the research showing the toxicity (several studies were stopped early because of it), and also discovered that all of the WellPet foods have green tea extract.

I immediately switched Galen to Canidae Large and Giant breed puppy at that time (which I chose on my own, based on ingredients, calcium/phosphorus levels, and the inclusion of probiotics et. al- not something I was sent for review purposes). He also gets Tripett green beef tripe (which naturally contains digestive enzymes, which are beneficial to digestion and nutrient absorption). For treats, he gets Sojos freeze dried raw lamb and Natural Balance Potato and Kangaroo Limited Ingredient dog food (another thing I was sent a sample of, but is too expensive for me to actually use as his primary food). I also give him an occasional raw beef soup bone.

Now that he’s 8 months old, I’ve transitioned him to Canidae Grain Free Pure Sea, which also has the highest ratings on Dog Food Advisor. At this age, they can properly metabolize calcium, so it’s not as imperative to keep levels so low. There has also been some recent research among giant breed breeders and vets that suggests they may also do better being weaned directly to an adult food- but one that meets the calcium/phosphorus recommendations for large and giant breed puppies. They say that the extra calories in the puppy foods tend to be empty calories, and that the adult foods may have greater nutritional benefit, ounce for ounce.

Hope this helps!
Belinda

[jcholl9]

Hi,

I joined this forum awhile back looking for a good dog food, for my Mom’s dog Sammy.

Sammy has had a history of bladder stones and just recently we took her into the vet June 30th for second bladder stone checkup. Her first checkup we tried a vet diet can dog food that didn’t do much good, she lost a lot of weight because of it.

So when we took her back in on June 30th the ex-ray showed the stones were still there.

So I gave the go ahead for Sammy’s bladder stone surgery to have them removed! Sammy is 10 years old an active dog but still it was scary. Not something I want her to face again.

Thankfully she made it through her surgery and was able to go home the next day.

Long story short we gotten her bladder stone test results back today.

What the stones were made of:
1. Magnesium Ammonium Phospate
2. Struvite
3.Calcium
4. Phospahate Carbonate

I’m now trying to find a dog food low in, Protein ( less than 5 grams), Phosphorus (less than 170mg) and Calcium (less than 140 mg)

Sammy is a good dog who loves to play for her age and just have fun. Anyone’s advice would be appreciated.

[Pitlove]

Deanna- As far as I’m aware Orijen LBP now meets the requirements for calcium and phosphorus. Orijen is an excellent food and a great choice compared to ProPlan. Another food that I really like and intend to use for my next dog which will also be a large, actually giant breed, is Fromm Gold Large Breed Puppy.

Protein is of no concern when it comes to optimal growth for large breeds. Many many current studies have disproven the myth that high protein diets can cause overgrowth in LBP’s. You can feed low, normal or high protein with no different effects as long as the calcium and phosphorus levels are correct.

To answer your last question, you can start with the recommended amounts on the bag and adjust as you moniter is growth. You will be feeding less with Orijen than ProPlan because it is a more nutrient dense food.

Lastly, congrats on your Boxer! They are great dogs 🙂

• This reply was modified 10 years, 10 months ago by Pitlove.

[C4D]

Hi Tyler G!

Everyone has given you some good advice! As long as the food is working digestively, you can use whichever she likes. I do rotate my foods as the others do. If the Orijen gives loose stools, you might want to go with the Acana. They’re both good foods. I do think you might be feeding too much. I have an active 13 lb dog and she gets about the equivelant of 2/3 cup of food per day even though she takes long walks (over a mile) daily. If you need to get her to gain weight, you could also feed her a midday snack to get her weight up. A lot of fosters do this to get the skinny dogs to gain weight. How does she look? She should have a distinct waist when viewed from above and a distinct tuck from her ribs to her back legs. You should be able to easily feel her ribs without pressing in. You should not see her hip or spine. Sometimes we think they’re too thin because we are so used to seeing overweight dogs. As aquariangt said, you want to keep your Doxie on the slim side to prevent back issues.

Deanna Y, I think the Orijen has been reformulated with a lower calcium level, but I’m not feeding any LB puppies currently. Here’s the DFA forum link that’s really helpful:

/forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/

[Dina H]

My dogs love this company’s food…I use the beef with tripe HVM (healthy variety mix), pork HVM, lamb HVM, duck HVM, chicken hvm. They love it all but esp the beef with tripe. I pick up my monthly supply in Quakertown and I know that they deliver to New England and New Jersey as well.

I will also use the Honest Kitchen dehydrated mix called Kindly and add this to their food…soak it well for 20 min to rehydrate and then I mix the raw with the Kindly. That product has the following ingredients and it is the only dog food out there that is HUMAN grade:

“Dehydrated carrots, organic flaxseed, dehydrated parsnips, dehydrated peas, dehydrated celery, dried organic coconut, dehydrated pumpkin, dehydrated chard, dehydrated organic kelp, dried marjoram, dried garlic, tricalcium phosphate, choline chloride, zinc amino acid chelate, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, potassium iodide, potassium chloride, iron amino acid chelate, copper amino acid chelate, thiamine mononitrate.”

[CircaRigel]

I’ve been informed of some recent studies that suggest that large and especially giant breed pups may do best if they’re weaned to a low calcium/phosphorus adult dog food at 8 weeks old, simply because the extra calories the puppy foods tend to be empty calories rather than nutrition, and any excess weight in a large/giant pup can lead to Pano. It’s better they get the nutrition over the risk of too many calories- especially empty calories. Definitely by 11 months old your pup should be fine on an adult diet, as growth has slowed and isn’t as rapid as the first 8 months.

[Pitlove]

This is the GA for the Hill’s Metabolic and Mobility:

Average Nutrient and Caloric Content
Dry 3210 kcal/kg (291 kcal/cup†)

Nutrient
Dry Matter1
%
Protein 28.0
Fat 14.6
Carbohydrate (NFE) 36.2
Crude Fiber 14.9
Calcium 0.95
Phosphorus 0.7
Sodium 0.37
Potassium 0.88
Magnesium 0.159
Carnitine 400 ppm
Vitamin C 324 mg/kg
Vitamin E 741 IU/kg
Chondroitin Sulfate 1174 mg/kg (ppm)
Glucosamine 738 mg/kg (ppm

The protein is highER than most of their formulas and the carbs are low which is why it is meant to help your dog lose weight. I agree that the ingredients are sub-par. Prehaps look for a food with better ingredients but very very close %’s on the GA. This food also contains Chondroitin and Glucosamine for the joints. I’m not sure if a senior formula would contain those ingredients but be high enough protein and low enough carbs to help your girl lose weight. If you switch to something that is better quality and the same %’s on the GA make sure you add a joint supplement.
I have heard really good things about this product: http://www.naturvet.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_images.tpl&product_id=39&category_id=7&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=4

Edit: Remember a “weight loss” food does not work if they are taking in more calories than they are burning. If your senior dog is less active make sure to decrease the amount they are eating as well to aid in weight loss. Also senior dogs have a increased need for quality animal protein, not a decrease. Perhaps consider looking into a raw diet for her?

• This reply was modified 10 years, 10 months ago by Pitlove.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 10 months ago by Pitlove.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 10 months ago by Pitlove.

[Claire T]

Dear Mike and fellow Editor’s choice members,

I have a 9 months old Golden Retriever puppy and I am currently feeding him Canidae Pure Foundations (Grain Free). We are from Australia so our choices are much limited compared to in the USA. I have 3 questions which has caused me problems in choosing the right food for him. Your advice or findings would be greatly appreciated.

1. I have been told by a friend about recent studies shown to switch large breed puppy to adult food at 9 or 10 months of age as they have reached 80% growth.

2. Also about calcium phosphorus level, can I feed my large breed puppy higher calcium levels/calcium phosphorus ratio after he has reached 9/10 months old? Or when can I do so? Or should I only choose kibbles that are within the recommended calcium phosphorus ratio for his whole life? I am interested in feeding him Earthborn Holistic however the calcium level is a bit high.

3. Is green tea extract safe for dogs? According to this website (http://www.thedogpress.com/dogfood/ingredients_liquorman.asp), ASPCA Poison Control Center lists green tea extract on its list of things to avoid for cats and dogs. However, green tea extract is an ingredient in many brands such as Wellness, Artemis, Holistic Select etc.

Thank you.

Regards,
Claire

[Udi W]

thanks ,

following the link
/best-dog-foods/best-large-breed-puppy-food/

I saw that TOTW are nearly the upper limit for the gram per kcal (4.4 to 1000 kcal) and over the recommended ratio of calcium to Phosphorus with 1.6.

so I consdering to switch to canine caviar

Grain Free Puppy

but they only mentioned “Metabolized Energy= 636 kcal/ cup” is there a way to convert to kcal/kg or should I email them / anyone can tell me if he/she did this check ?

any other suggestion from this attached link :
http://tinypic.com/r/jrrvqp/8
it is a screenshot from my dog/cat food supplier i’m really want to continue to work with it. (80% of the profits goes to rescued dogs/cats shelters. there is a bit of Hebrew in the image but the brand is written in English – don’t get confused 😉 )

[Bobby dog]

Hi Udi W:
Labs are so much fun!! I am not sure if you are concerned about his current weight or the possibility of gaining weight. It is best for his health to keep him lean by not overfeeding and to avoid over exercising him until he reaches maturity; less stress on growing joints. Here’s some more info:
/best-dog-foods/best-large-breed-puppy-food/

Here’s a thread about large breed puppy nutritional requirements. Read the first three or four pages and the links on the first page:
/forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/

On this page look for the post dated October 2, 2013 at 4:22 pm and follow the link to recommended large breed puppy foods. If you choose one of these foods I recommend contacting the company to be sure the calcium/phosphorous ratios are optimal for a large breed puppy, the list has not been updated for a few years.
/forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/page/36/

You could also join the Editor’s Choice for a current list of approved large breed puppy foods. Sounds like your pup is in good hands, good luck and have lots of fun with your boy!!

[kassie m]

I have a question that is probably silly, but I want to be sure. After a large breed puppy is grown, is it alright to feed them a food that is higher in calcium? I like Earthborn’s Primitive and it reads a min. of 1.5%. Should I have the dogs on a lower calcium food, or is it okay now that they are adults? Thank you!

[Anonymous]

My dog had both (struvite and calcium oxalate), no symptoms till the age of 11, started with UTIs. He has had no recurrences in 4 years since his emergency surgery.
In fact, I just took him in for a geriatric workup and his lab work was good.

I was afraid the vet would want to do x-rays and test his urine…..but he said as long as he is not having symptoms we are not going there (he’s too old to tolerate another surgery)
I do monitor his urination habits and check for normal flow, stream, amount. If I note any discomfort I will take him to the vet.

There is a genetic component and some breeds are more prone to bladder stones. My guy is a peke. Did your vet have the stones tested?

Anyway, if you do nothing else, add water and take her out to urinate frequently.
I went along with the prescription diet for almost a year, since then he has been on Nutrisca salmon and chickpea kibble soaked with water +, I use the wet food too, but the canned foods seem so greasy to me…

[CircaRigel]

Agreed. A lot of those Petsworld foods and treats are definitely not premium and have alot of fillers your dog doesn’t need. As for Holistic Select, while mostly premium, it contains green tea extract… Wellness, Eagle Pack, Old Mother Hubbard, and Holistic Select all began putting it in all of their foods recently… but there’s a problem. I found a fair bit of research on PubMed that shows it to cause liver toxicity in dogs. Granted, the doses are higher and its worse if given in a fasting state, which wouldn’t be the case in food products, but I still wouldn’t want to risk my dog by touching the stuff.

Galen, my 6-month-old Shiloh is now on Canidae Grain Free Pure Sea for kibble, and Trippett (Green Beef Tripe, Tripe & Venison, & Duck Salmon & Tripe) for his canned food. I decided to follow the recent research that suggests giant breed pups may do best on an adult diet that has the low calcium and phosphorus, as it doesn’t have a lot of extra empty calories. I chose the Pure Sea formula because it has few key ingredients, the first 3 are meat and meat meals (fresh smoked salmon, salmon meal, menhaden fish meal), and is absolutely LOADED with Omega 3’s (brain food and excellent for the immune system, plus anti-inflammatory… perfect for a service dog in training like Galen, or a service dog). It also has the highest rating from Dog food Advisor, and includes probiotics and even some enzymes, like cellulase, which increases the bioavailability of polysaccharides as an energy source. The tripe in Trippett also contains digestive enzymes, which again is beneficial for digestion and increasing the bioavailability of nutrients.

Everything I feed Galen is for a reason. Even his treats, which are Sojo’s Simply Lamb… Only one ingredient- raw lamb, conveniently freeze dried.

[Pitlove]

Hi Kari-

I disagree that a puppy and 5 year old dog can’t eat the same food. You can absolutely feed the same food to both you would just maybe not feed the same amounts. Idk if you consider your dog a senior dog at 5, but if you do senior dogs need MORE protein than puppies and adult dogs contrary to popular belief. Senior diets are often very very low in protein however, a puppy food wouldn’t be. I never care about what the front of a bag says. My pitbull is currently eating a food marketed for “small breeds” lol. its just smaller kibble size and hes fine with it. I would have no problem feeding him puppy, adult or senior food as long as the ingredients were up to par for me and the nutrient profile was correct.

Take a look at the list Dori linked. Those are all foods that have proper calcium levels for large breed puppies like your golden doodle. and please make sure you don’t overfeed as that, along with improper calcium/phos levels can cause many skeletal disorders like pano, OCD and hip dysplasia.

[Jennifer P]

I have a white Dane, Chase, who is allergic to EVERYTHING and has IBD. I have been struggling with this for over a year (15 months). It seems when I get his bowel right he turns into a hairless rat (inflamed ears, hair falls out on his face/neck, red splotches, face itching, etc.). When I get his hair/skin right he loses weight because his bowel is runny. He also has environmental allergies. He is just a big happy mess.

Anyhow, he has been on prescription foods (ID & D/D) with hydrolyzed proteins, as well as limited ingredient premium foods and non-limited ingredient premium foods. It seems like I have to change his food every 10-12 weeks as some symptom starts to appear. I feel like I am running out of options. I always use the dog food advisory site and will not try any foods below a 4 star (mind thing for me…). He is allergic to chicken, pork, fish, eggs and soybean. I have a spreadsheet with a massive amount of data about what foods he has tried, common ingredients, how long he was on them and what symptoms occurred. This is driving me insane!

My vet wants to treat him with prednisone, which we have on a few occasions. I want to find a miracle food that works for his IBD and food allergies (w. accurate protein, calcium levels etc.) – you know, so he can be normal. There is a dog nutritional clinic in Atlanta, GA and they require a referral. They said they would do a phone consultation with my vet for $175 and determine a route based on the information my vet provides them – basically the spreadsheet I have.

Before I go that route…. Has anyone else had this issue and is there a miracle food I could try? Any thoughts would be very much appreciated.

[zuponicafe]

I just wanted to give a big shout out to this sites awesomeness! The price for the editors choice was well worth it, although even w/out it there are great things to be learned about dog food. Especially for folks like myself who thought all dog foods were the same. I’m glad I looked into things before we got our guy Loki back in Feb.
My experience feeding him different foods has been a positive one. He is a mixture of lab/shep/husky/newfie and I was unsure what his grown up size would be, so I was trying to keep things on the lower calcium side, but some of the best foods were outlandishly priced. Knowing the ratings of various foods has enabled me to feed him food that has been marked down for whatever reason and still feel like a good dog mommy & not a cheapskate.
He is now 6 months old & while exactly not the biggest dog (his puppy paws were deceiving! LOL) he is a healthy & fit 60 pounds of fun.
Occasionally too much fun~he’s prone to climbing & hopping. He’s the bounciest big dog I’ve ever met!
That said, the foods (dry) that I’ve been swapping around have included: Whole Earth Farms puppy, Castor & Pollocks Organix. Wellness Core (which is NEVER marked down!)
Nutro Max & lately Zignature Turkey. He really likes the Zignature, as do I as it’s relatively affordable.
The canned food I’ve used (I call ‘unders’ as I put it on the bottom of his bowl.) Are very varied. There are a lot different pet stores near me, so I get whatever decent brand catches my eye & is on sale.
I must say, the one can I bought of Trippetts went into the trash as I couldn’t stand the smell of it.
So there’s my long winded tale of rotation feeding.
In our case it’s been great!

[Pitlove]

Sorry to repost, but I never got an answer and I’m still really curious if anyone has info about this. I posted this one page ago

Hey guys,
was reading through the front few pages for some help with a question about pano. i kind of got most of my answer but i guess i still have some questions..heres the story
i work at petco as some of you know already and i had a customer today whos 5 mo lab has already been diagnoised with pano. her vet recommended a senior dog food that was low in protein because she explained that high protein can cause over growth in large breed puppies. i thought that sounded weird but i really didnt want to completely be rude and go against her vet (since im in a professional setting) but i did mention to her what i know from Hound Dog Mom about calcium levels etc. i read through some of the articles HDM posted and saw that the protein theory was debunked but some vets still hold on to that. why is that? lack of education about recent research or what? SHOULD a dog that already HAS pano be on low protein? or is that not true either? i guess i’m wondering if the low protein diet her vet recommended was because the dog already has pano and its no longer a matter of preventing it

[Pitlove]

Hi Tonia- Marie did actually point you in a good direction if you are interested in feeding raw/homemade. Hound Dog Mom who is the one who made the thread focusing on large/giant breed puppies does in fact feed a raw homemade diet and talks about it in that thread. It is however a very long thread but a good and helpful thread. Unfortunetly large breed puppies have certain diet requirements until 8mo’s of age that help prevent many diabilitating skeletal diseases, that can end up costing thousands of dollars in vet bills.

Hound Dog Mom has a list of foods that have the proper calcium levels for large/giant breed puppies, some are grain-free and others are grain-inclusive. I would start there and figure out what your budget IS and then compare a few that she has on her list and see if any are budget friendly enough. They are all 4 to 5 star in quality so if you are looking for something 3 stars or lower to save money A) that list won’t be too helpful and B) the food may not have the correct calcium levels a large breed puppy needs.

[Pitlove]

Linda- Rotties! i love them. we also have a Rottweiler along with our Pitbull a chocolate lab and an English springer spaniel. Sam, our Rottweiler (technically he is my boyfriends parents dog, so I dont get to control what he eats unfortunetly but i still think of him as my dog since I give him the most attention as hes the outside dog) is 2 probably almost 3 years old now. The bf’s parents have had all the dogs on Purina ONE lamb and rice since forever. The family dog has always been Rottweilers and unfortunely all but maybe one passed away at around 8 years old. Cancer, e-coli poisoning, you name it its happened to our Rottweilers. If it were up to me and I got to choose his food I would feed him the way I feed my Pitbull who is also prone to the problems that large breed dogs have as he is 66lbs at a year old. I do what is called a rotational diet with my dog. I certainly have him on Orijen’s Adult Dog and after that bag is through i’ve got EVO lined up next for him to try. I also feed him wet food. Now that your Rottie is far past the point where you have to worry about the calcium levels not being too high or too low to prevent rapid growth thus causing many different skeletal related disorders, you can kinda give him a nice variety of foods. If you are on a budget as someone who is retired and need to stick with kibbles, definitely go for the 5 star rated ones. I know a lot of people on here have issues with Taste of the Wild. I BELIEVE its manufacture by Diamond which has a long recall history and a terrible reputation. You want to make sure that the kibble is as species appropriate as you can get if you, like myself, can’t feed a raw diet, which would be the healthiest way for any dog to eat. Species appropriate for ANY dog of any breed being high in animal protein, at least 30% or more, moderate in fats, and low in carbs. Foods that I like and have and will use in my rotation for my pitbull are Orijen (all of them), Wellness CORE, Nature’s Variety, Merrick (GF only), EVO, Grandma Mae’s GF. I’m still working on my list but that is what I have so far.

As for raw, if it is something you are interested in, PLEASE make sure you do A LOT of research before feeding raw because it is possible to make your dog very unhealthy by not feeding a COMPLETE and BALANCED raw diet.

Also to help with the transitions to the food, you can add probiotics to their diet, like canned pumpkin and kefir. I also use a supplement thats premade in a power form made by a very great company called The Honest Kitchen. They use human grade ingredients and make their food in a human grade factory. Its called Perfect Form. Probiotics help build healthy flora(bacteria) in your dogs gut to make transitioning to a new food pain free for you and your dog. Just like with humans dogs should be able to eat a different food or protein every meal if not every couple months without digestive upset. Dogs whos stomachs are already sick and lacking those bacteria that make their gut strong due to being fed the same food day in and day out are the ones who get loose stool and vomitting when you switch their food. Instantly the owner blames the food and switches them back and never switches the food again under the claim that their dog has whats commonly called a “sensitive stomach”.

The joint supplements are a great idea. Glucosamine is a great supplement for joint and hip problems. Cancer, I feel, and I think others do too can have a lot to do with a poor diet. A lot of poor grade dogs foods do contain ingredients that are carcinogenic even for humans and without variety in their diet they are being fed those toxins for years and eventually is catches up with them. The rotational diet helps prevent that and the build up of allergies as well. If your Rottie is already allergic to a protein source like chicken, you are going to want to be very careful with the food you choose as many have chicken meal or chicken fat hidden in the list of ingredients. Its all about reading ingredients but more importantly HOW to read the ingredients and the GA, which is why this website is so helpful. But like many here including Dr. Mike will tell you, its a jumping off point. Once you find a good food, you want to look further into the company that makes it, the co-packers, the recall history etc and make sure that you’re not being fooled into thinking its a good food based on the ingredients. Also knowing where the company sources from is important, what with all the problems we have been having with China lately. Avoid China. Thailand on the other hand is ok.

I really hope that I’ve helped a little and that others will contribute or correct me if I’m wrong about any of my points. I love Rotties so I’m glad to be able to give you some direction with his health!

• This reply was modified 11 years ago by Pitlove.
• This reply was modified 11 years ago by Pitlove.

[Pitlove]

Hey guys,
was reading through the front few pages for some help with a question about pano. i kind of got most of my answer but i guess i still have some questions..heres the story

i work at petco as some of you know already and i had a customer today whos 5 mo lab has already been diagnoised with pano. her vet recommended a senior dog food that was low in protein because she explained that high protein can cause over growth in large breed puppies. i thought that sounded weird but i really didnt want to completely be rude and go against her vet (since im in a professional setting) but i did mention to her what i know from Hound Dog Mom about calcium levels etc. i read through some of the articles HDM posted and saw that the protein theory was debunked but some vets still hold on to that. why is that? lack of education about recent research or what? SHOULD a dog that already HAS pano be on low protein? or is that not true either? i guess i’m wondering if the low protein diet her vet recommended was because the dog already has pano and its no longer a matter of preventing it

[Pitlove]

Hi Linda K- Like Jake’s mom said, most of the breed specific foods out there like Royal Canin’s breed specfic lines are a marketing tool. You pay a premium price for a low quality food full of corn and by-products. It is true that some breeds have disorders that genetically they are prone to that you can combat through diet. Example is large breed puppies needing proper calcium levels between 8 weeks and 8 mos. That being said, most large breed puppy foods are actually NOT formulaed with those proper calcium levels and typically have far TOO much calcium. However when you compare most brands that make breed specific formulas there is nothing breed specific or species appropriate about them at all.

A few questions for you to help you better. What breed of dog do you have? Is the dog healthy as far as you know with no known medical conditions? Does the dog have any known allergies to grains, certain protein sources, anything like that? What genetic disorders does the breed have that you would like to take action against to help lower his/her odds of getting?

Ill be happy to try to help when you write back!

[Maria S]

Hello everyone!! ☺️

Im so glad I found this place to ask and share information about our lovely dogs, I just got a Great Pyrenees her name is Lulu and she is 8 weeks, I was reading some of the comments about what would be the best food and so far what I am understanding is that calcium has to be low correct? I looked through the list of leading foods and did a little research. I’m thinking to get her started on earthbone hollistics meadow feast, I just want to make sure that this will be ok for her since she still a puppy and is not market it as puppy food? Or are there any other suggestion?

Thank you so much in advance! Hugs and kisses from lulu as well!

[crazy4cats]

Hi Ryan K-

Here is another option for you unless no potatoes means no sweet potatoes as well as white. My dogs do very well on this food. I copied and pasted the following information from the California Natural Website. Good luck!

California Natural Grain Free Pork Meal & Sweet Potatoes Formula Adult Dog Food is formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles for all life stages.

California Natural Grain Free Pork Meal & Sweet Potatoes Formula Adult Dog Food is available in 5-lb., 15-lb. or 30-lb. packages.

Guaranteed Analysis:
Name Value (units)
Crude Protein (Min) 30.0 %
Crude Fat (Min) 11.0 %
Crude Fiber (Max) 5.0 %
Moisture (Max) 10.0 %
Linoleic Acid (an Omega-6 Fatty Acid) (Min) 1.1 %
Vitamin E (Min) 300.0 IU/kg
Omega-3 Fatty Acids* (Min) 0.5 %

Calorie Content:
3601.0 kcal/kg
431.0 kcal/cup

Ingredients:
Pork Meal
Peas
Green Lentils
Flaxseed
Sunflower Oil (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a Source of Vitamin E)
Pea Fiber
Sweet Potatoes
Natural Flavors
Salt
Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Iodate)
Vitamins (Betaine Hydrochloride, Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Beta Carotene, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Biotin, Folic Acid)
Vitamin E Supplement
Rosemary Extract

[Pitlove]

All dogs no matter what breed in order to maintain proper weight and dietary needs as long as they are healthy with no known medical conditions usually do best on a food that is high in protein, moderate in fat, and low in carbs.

I’m sure if you gave us more info as to your situation (e.g income, how much access you have to pet stores, do they have a wide selection, do you prefer to order online) we could help you out a lot better.

Yes, typically canines do better with a grain free food, however, like most people on this site who are regulars will tell you, just because it’s grain free does not mean it’s species appropriate for a dog. A lot of companies that have gotten on the “grain free” bandwagon have replaced the corn, soy, wheat and rice in their foods, with high carbs like potatoes into order to bind the food together. So you need to pay close attention that the protein is not less than the carbs and the fat % is not too high either. Also, you need to pay attention to where the protein source is coming from. For example, a food that has 30% protein but you don’t see a whole meat or meat meal listed as the first second and third ingredients. That means they are using plant based proteins, which are not species appropriate protein sources as dogs are carnivores.

A few brands that meet these needs that are not avaliable at a commercial pet store like Petco would be Orijen, Acana, Wysong. Some brands that commercial stores do carry are Merrick, Nature’s Variety and Wellness CORE.

These are just ones I can think off the top of my head and that are apart of my dogs rotation. Most of us also use a canned wet food for the added moisture content and many people on here do raw homemade meals too. However if you think about going that route please do your research on how to create a balanced raw diet for a dog before just slapping together some chicken and veggies and calling that a meal.

edit: here’s the direct link to the google.doc aquariangt was talking about
https://docs.google.com/a/selu.edu/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk/edit
these are foods that have the proper calcium levels for large breed puppies

• This reply was modified 11 years ago by Pitlove.
• This reply was modified 11 years ago by Pitlove.

[Kandi S]

I did a search about prenatal vitamins and if men can take one as a daily multivitamin or not. I was surprised to read what types of vitamins a male vs a female human should and shouldn’t take, the differences in their amounts as well as their bad side affects according to gender and the importance of where our vitamins, minerals, etc… are derived from according to our gender. Then it struck me what about a male dog vs a female dog or any pet and should they be given a different intake of vitamins according to their gender? In male humans for example; some levels of vitamins and minerals as well as where they are derived from can cause everything from a higher risk of getting prostrate cancer to heart disease. The same for females that can suffer from weak bones to fetal birth defects if they don’t get enough Calcium or Foliate Acid. I was just wondering if anyone has considered this when reading their pet food labels and if they purchase different foods according to the sexes of their dog’s and other pets? Below is just an example of one of the articles I read about that states when choosing Omega 3’s in a human male diet to make sure it’s derived from fish oil and not flax seed oil because it has been shown to increase the risk of prostate cancer in men. So, if you own a male dog vs a female dog you might want to consider these facts even though this articles facts are according to human diets. Thanks!

Increased Risk of Prostate Cancer:
While most prenatal vitamins include only vitamins and essential minerals, some include omega supplements as well. Omega 3 is derived from flax oil and has been shown to increase the risk of prostate cancer in men. Omega 3 derived from fish oil, on the other hand, has been shown to inhibit prostate cancer, so it is important to determine what type of Omega 3 (if any) is in prenatal vitamins before taking them.
Read more : http://www.ehow.com/about_5042316_prenatal-vitamins-effects-men.html

[wolff]

I don’t know what the problem is, I can access every other thread but the one I started, when I try to read it or anything it keeps asking me to log in, obviously I AM logged in or I wouldn’t be able to even read this premium area I paid for..

crazy4cats wrote:
Hi Wolff-
I agree wich zcRiley, you should stick to a puppy or an all life stages food with the appropriate calcium level for your new large breed pups.

Also, I would have a fecal test done to rule out parasites. Giardia and Coccidia are sometimes hard to detect and regular dewormers do not get rid of either one of these conditions. They both also can cause intermittent loose stools or diarrhea and they are both fairly common in puppies.
Wellness Core is an excellent choice. Good luck

Hi,
Well the thing is I haven’t bought puppy food for many years because much of it is an American advertising gimmick, they create a “need” with consumers where none existed, this is an American phenomenon you don’t (or didn’t) see in Europe. I’ve been in dogs since 1982, used to show, and always had an average of four dogs concurrently. I’ve always fed an adult premium feed for slow steady growth.
But now with Nutrilife I’m not seeing the smaller firm stools I used to even in my two adults, it’s almost as though they suddenly changed the formula to more filler or a different supplier.
I have had only one puppy with cocidia many years ago, he got it when I visted “my” breeder and we went to a show together with her dogs and my adult, we put my puppy in one of her kennel runs that had a dirt/gravel floor, when we came back my puppy had excavated holes while we were gone.
Shortly after that he started getting foul smelling bloody diarreah and sure enough it was coccsidia.
My puppies don’t have diarreah as in squirting liquid, and it’s not foul smelling or the like, it’s just soft very poorly formed stool that comes after going once and having a more firm stool, and a few minutes later going again to finish and it’s soft and doesn’t pick up cleanly.
Remember what I said earlier- the Nutrilife bag suggests about 4-3/4 to 5 cups for giant breed puppies, 12 weeks/30# and they are getting 7-1/2 cups and still pretty thin, so to me it’s more of a loose stool from eating too much feed along with possibly a formula change. They clearly are not doing well on this brand.

We’ll see what happens on wellness.

[Ellen D]

I’m hoping there is a simple answer to this question. I have a very picky 15 week old labradoodle puppy. Right now, the only foods he will eat are Darwin’s raw beef recipe and my homemade food (following the Ottowa Valley Dog Whisperer recipe).

I’d like to get into 100% homemade, but I don’t have a meat grinder currently and would like to be sure of everything before I invest in one. I also don’t always have the time to sit and watch him eat his bones, so I’d like to have ground options for times when he doesn’t have my 100% undivided attention.

So, if I order chubs of pre-ground meats (such as Blue Ridge Beef, etc.) that has the correct ratio of meat to bone to organs, and mix that with my own fruit/vegetable and supplement blend (assuming I offer the correct supplements at correct dosages and add no additional calcium), then the inclusion of the ground bone should provide for the appropriate levels of calcium and phosphorus in the correct ratios, yes?

Last question – does any one have experience with Allprovide premade raw food? It looks to me like the puppy mix ha the appropriate ca:phosphorus ratio and has quality ingredients. It has 2.33g of calcium and 2.09g of phosphorus per 1,000kcal.

[losul]

Hello Aimee
I’m glad my pup raising days (and child raising days) are long past 🙂 or I’d have to study all over again to get enough confidence to homemake even then half of a pup’s food properly. I think it’s very important to start off a pup on good foundation to health early for the proper build of health throughout life. And then to think that someone could be using an exclusive food (most of us regulars here on DFA never would ) through gestation, nursing, puppiehood, and adult hood, one should be even more careful. if I did ever aquire another puppy, not at all likely, but I’d definitely want to see that at least some wholesome rawness was a part of the diet, but I’d also want to make certain it was properly formulated, and well rounded with wholesome ingredients, whether formulated by myself or someone else. Getting the macronutrients right at the VERY least, and not dependent to any large degree on any one formulation.

But I also think many raw maunufacturers face a dilemma, do they add a bunch of vitamins/minerals, many of them perhaps needlessly, and some perhaps harmfully,
in order to be able to put that AAFCO label on them? I think AAFCO guidelines were
designed for and are a must for heavily processed foods, the most so being kibble,
and even much more so when low grade, questionable, and inadequate ingredients are
used. I can’t imagine how nutritionally devoid most kibbles would be without rather
heavily added vitamins/minerals.

But, if you take vitamin E for example. It gets used up with time, processing, and
natural peroxidation/oxidation of fats, especially the sensitive, unstable fats.
What vitamin E added when a kibble is made, needs to be sufficient throughout the
manufacturing process, the time that the kibble is stored, and then throughout the
time someone is feeding the bag. Probably if measured at the time a kibble is fed,
it would be a very small fraction left of the original vitamin E included
originally, but hopefully it would still retain at least some smaller amount. I
think the AAFCO guidelines likely allow for these losses.
Whereas a raw, minimally, but properly processed diet, fed immediately, or that is
frozen in well sealed packages is going to retain most of the original vitamin E.
The food/fats is still going to undergo some peroxidation, albeit at a much, much
slower rate. I believe to much vitamin E can be very harmful, just like to much
much of many other added nutrients. Even AAFCO is concerned with overnutrition.
“Maximum levels of intake of some nutrients have been established for the first
time because of concern that overnutrition, rather than undernutrition, is a bigger
problem with many pet foods today.” I’m satisfied that Allprovide has more than
sufficient of vitamin E in that food for MY dog, with the added wheat germ oil.

Another example, I think you know of the importance of vitamin D in regulating
uptake of calcium and some other minerals. Probably you also know the detrimental
effects of to much vitamin D in supplemetation, including possible hypercalcemia.
And we have both seen how many raw foods, both homemade recipes and some
commercially prepared, appear to be “deficient” in vitamin D when going by AAFCO
guidelines.
I found this study interesting, “Some Observations on the Dietary Vitamin D
Requirement of Weanling Pups” and the conclusion; “Dogs fed diets with and without
supplemental cholecalciferol did not differ in growth rate, food consumption or
selected serum or urine values. Likewise,there were no differences between the two
of response to added cholecalcifrol was probably due to adequate levels of calcium
and phosphorus in the base diet and possible synthesis of vitamin D. However, it is
possible that some vitamin D could have been present in one or more of the
ingredients of the basal diet. It has been suggested that dogs may only require
additional vitamin D when there is a mineral deficiency or imbalance in the diet
(11). However, one study reported canine rickets in diets containing 1.2% calcium
and 1% phosphorus (6).It has been reported that carnivores may not possess the
mechanism of vitamin D synthesis in the skin (7). Another study demonstrated that
dogs fed a nonpurified diet without added vitamin D under conditions of total
darkness did not exhibit bone defects (Kealy,unpublished data). Previous reports
did not record the ultraviolet light status of the environment. It is not
understood at this time how the dog acquires sufficient vitamin D for metabolism.
Part of the explanation appears to be related to a very low vitamin D requirement
in the presence of adequate dietary mineral balance.The observation that large
breed dogs raised in indoor-outdoor kennel runs do not require added vitamin D is
important <b>because supplemental vitamin D, calcium and phosphorus are frequently
recommended and used at levels in excess of the nutritional require
ments of the dog, presumably to enhance bone growth and development. The data
reported here suggest that supplementation of nonpurified, commercially available
dog foods with vitamin D may not be necessary.</b>

http://www.2ndchance.info/homemadediet-Kealy1991.pdf

Aimee, I know you’ve expounded about the blatant abuse of some other raw manufacturers in applying the AAFCO label of completeness on their foods, and I largely agree with many of your points, especially when it comes to all life stages/puppy, and especially the macronutrients Ca,P. etc.

I never expected you to approve of this one either. But for us, the puppy blend, good quality balanced proteins and well balanced fats, The meat, bone and beef organs in the proper proportions, and it’s other rounded whole food additions, and it’s 95% of the way there for us. I have a few more questions to ask, but as it stands for now, when my food supply runs down some, I intend to buy some Allprovide puppy blend and use at least as a sometimes meal/topper for my adult. It can replace some of the to expensive canned foods we’ve been using for the second meal of the day. I see it as a step up and less money too. The first meal will still always be raw homemade, or another solid commercial brand raw. If I did see a long list of added synthetic vitamins/minerals, for me, I’d likely just pass on this food. I’d still really appreciate someone (Dori?) to take a visit to them and report back.

• This reply was modified 11 years ago by losul.

[Ellen D]

Hello –

I have a 3 month old labradoodle puppy. He was 20 lbs a week ago, so I’d think he’s between 20 and 25 now. He’ll be about 65 pounds full grown most likely.

I’m currently feeding him Nature’s Variety Instinct Large Puppy kibble, which I’ve now realized is even too high in calcium for him. He gets some Stella & Chewy meal mixer in with breakfast and I always give him either a scrambled egg, cottage cheese, pumpkin, or some plain meat chunks with dinner – lunch is plain kibble, as that’s at the day care most days. He gets a raw chicken wing or thigh as a treat a couple times a week right now.

I’m going to plead ignorance and admit that I thought I was doing a great thing by getting him “fancy” kibble and only realized a week into having him that there’s much, much more to dog food than dry kibble.

So my dilemma:

–I need to provide him with some form of kibble or dry-fed food for various reasons – the day care can’t mix his food, I do travel from time to time on business so he may need to be boarded 3-4 days per month, and I’m afraid if I stop kibble altogether he might refuse it while I’m away and be a very hungry boy when I return. However, this doesn’t have to continue to be a significant portion of his food. I am happy to keep it just to stuff Kongs/food toys so he stays used to it, but I need to have some on hand. I’ve narrowed this down to – Annamaet Salcha, Avoderm Turkey, or Fromm Beef Frittata.

–I am very interested in a raw diet for him, but I can’t decide what to do here. I’d like to have some freeze-dried product on hand (narrowed down to NRG Maxim and THK Love) for convenience. But ultimately, once he’s down to 2 meals per day from 3, I’d like to go as full raw as I can do – whether it be commercial or homemade or a combo. I have found what I am confident is a very good and versatile homemade recipe (from Ottowa Valley Dog Whisperer – are we allowed to post links here?). My one and only issue with this recipe is I need to sit down and do some maths and figure out what to add in terms of calcium – if I need to alter the recommendation in the recipe based on having a largish breed puppy.

–I am also interested in supplementing with raw meaty bones, as my dog really enjoys his chicken wings and chews them very nicely. Is it okay to just use rmbs as a supplement/treat kind of deal? Could/should I give him one daily or just a few times a week or is it better to just replace a whole meal with them? I would vary the meat/bone source often.

I’m trying to do the right and best thing for my puppy, and I’m 100% open to suggestions and criticism about my plans. I welcome any and all advice, as I’m new to this and my head is just spinning. Added to this is that my wife travels 5 days a week, I work full time outside the home, and we have a 4 year old (human) daughter as well as 2 cats and about 200 fish haha! So I’m a single parent 5 days a week. I’m really at the mercy of convenience. However, I can manage an evening cooking session once a week or a couple times a month and can freeze portion sized amounts. It’s just a matter of figuring out that pesky calcium balance. The recipe calls for powdered eggshell or bone meal. OR I can add whole prey meat to the recipe – I assume I would grind this – and omit the eggshell.

If I were to make the homemade diet, I feel like I would probably feed that for 2 meals per day and continue with kibble for 1 meal. And then when pup’s down to 2 meals, perhaps full homemade with kibble in the kong or as hand fed treats so he stays accustomed to it.

Last question – there doesn’t seem to be a lot of question/issue with feeding raw meaty bones or prey model diets to large breed puppies. Does the nature of a raw diet negate the need to watch the calcium levels so closely?

[cms60]

I used Dog Food Advisor years ago when my sweet Betty was first diagnosed with allergies. Wish your site was active then! I’m going to have to try something new now, so I’m glad to have it! The only allergy Betty has that isn’t listed is peanuts, but they don’t seem to be in any of the foods she can have otherwise since you kindly listed the ingredients.

Here is my problem: She is now a little older and the vet says she has an alarmingly high Calcium Oxalate concentration in her urine. They recommend the prescription dog foods, but the only ones she can have with her allergies are the wet ones, and I’m not a fan of the all wet diet. My dogs have always had great teeth, and I can’t discount the fact that I make them crunch some of their food. I add anything wet immediately before they eat.

Her allergies are: alfalfa, barley, carrots, peas, rice, soy, sunflower, and peanuts. My personal research indicates she could benefit from a diet higher in protein, sodium, potassium, calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, and moisture and contents with decreased urine acidifying potential. The dry food has a greater potential for problem than wet (no moisture). In contrast, there is some evidence that diets higher in fats and lower in protein and potassium are likely to increase urine acidity and cause the Ca Oxalate to precipitate out.

Do you have any suggestions about this since you seem to have thoroughly studied the ingredients? I have been feeding Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream formulation for years. Currently, I am adding a lot of water to it to increase water intake.

Thanks!
Carolyn S.

[Phil L]

I have an eight-year old Welsh Terrier that has a history of both pancreatitis and calcium oxalate bladder stones. He’s been on several Science Diet Prescription Dog foods, like W/D Dry and I/D Low Fat Canned, and neither have prevented either the stones or the pancreatitis. Most experts say the food treatment for one condition is diametrically opposed to the food treatment for the other. One post I read suggested mixing Evangers Chicken and Rice Canned with Wellness Core Low Fat Dry. Evangers food is not the Editors’ Choice List, but Wellness Core Reduced Fat is. Does anyone have a suggestion to replace the Evangers, or does anyone have a completely different suggestion for a food or foods that would be okay for both conditions? Thanks in advance!

[DogFoodie]

Hi Christine,

The soft stool could definitely be the result of a food intolerance. My dog with food intolerances gets soft stool from lots of things, especially flax.

The first thing I would do is put him on a limited ingredient with an appropriate Calcium level for a large breed puppy; ie: Nature’s Variety Instinct LID Rabbit.

Loose or even soft stool for a prolonged period is a problem that you can’t allow to resolve on its own without taking action. I would change the food and add canned pumpkin to his food to help firm the stool and ease the transition to a new food.

[Jennifer H]

I would stick with Fromm. Taste of the Wild is manufactured by Diamond, and while the food is good, the company is pretty shady and has a long history of recalls. A lot of people here recommend a rotational diet with kibble, there’s a few threads on it around you may be interested in 🙂

As for feeding raw. I personally wouldn’t mix them in the same meal, as this can give some dogs digestive upset. I would feed one meal as kibble, and one meal as raw. For raw, you want to feed him 2% of his body weight per day. So if you’re only feeding one meal of raw, cut that number in half. So since he is 100~lbs, he would need 2 lbs of food per day. Since he is only getting 1 meal a day of raw, that would be 1lb of food at his mealtime.

Start him out slow with just poultry for awhile to get his tummy used to it. Then you can gradually start introducing other meats like beef, pork, etc and organs, which are an important part of the diet. When feeding something bony like a turkey neck, add in some nice meaty meat like chicken breast or hearts (about half the weight of the bones worth) to cut the calcium and prevent constipation.

I currently feed my dog kibble in the morning and raw at night (next week we make the switch to full raw!!) and he does well on it.

For chews, you can try giving him a frozen turkey neck and let him work on that. It can keep a dog busy for hours.

You could also look into antlers, although I know some people have reservations over them being too hard.

This is a good thread to read to find some information on raw food – /forums/topic/menus/

[Anonymous]

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_canine_struvite_bladder_stones.html

“Struvite stones form in urine with a high pH (alkaline urine), diets should help to maintain a low pH (acidic urine). Diets with animal-based protein sources are most important in maintaining an acidic pH, while
vegetarian or cereal-based diets are more likely to cause and alkaline urine”.

“With Calcium Oxalate stones, a high protein diet can cause stones by increasing calcium in the urine. It lowers urinary pH and can increase uric acid. High quantities of animal protein can contribute to stone formation by increasing urinary calcium and oxalic acid excreting and by decreasing urinary citric acid excretion”.

“You should increase your dog’s water consumption to help dilute the urine. You can do this by adding water to your dog’s food, it should look like wet mush. Avoid table scraps when caring for an oxalate stone-forming dog”.

“Depending on the kind of stone, you either want more, or less protein, and lower in fat (3 -8%). Be sure to check with your veterinarian before changing your dog’s diet”.

[Cheryl H]

I’m confused. My dog,Winston, is recovering from an illness that I thought might have resulted from a “bad bag” of Blue Basics. His blood work indicated an elevated level of calcium. We’re waiting for results of additional tests. In the meantime, Winston is eating prescription food– Hills I/D GI formula. I had decided to transition Winston to Fromm grain free lamb & lentil dry food, based on positive posts and reviews of Fromm products. Yesterday my vet said I should switch to a lower protein adult formula and specifically recommended Science Diet. Winston is a 7-1/2 year old Llasa Apso mix. Any suggestions for a good quality food with an appropriate protein level?

[AJ A]

Thanks for all your opinions and experiences, I am glad I received replies.
I won’t ever go back to kibble EVER.
And I don’t run to the Vet all the time. I am organic myself since 15 yrs and haven’t seen a doctor since. Not even once!
I use common sense and needed to see if my case was only happening to my pup. As I can see it is definitely the water in the meat. Thats why they dont need to drink as much water as they do with kibble. Today I controlled a little the water intake and he pees less often, but still bigger spots than before and specially after feeding the chicken. He is doing just fine and has top energy, his coat started shining and it is growing faster than it was 1 month ago.
Before I switched to raw I did a deep education to be prepared, asking raw feeding breeders all over from Australia to Germany, checked everything online and started to understand that raw diet should not contain veggies neither grains like the BARF diet.. Wolves dont get a complete balanced diet everyday, neither do we and certainly they wont be searching for carrots, spinach and grains in their habitat. They receive the fermented enzymes from the digested food of their prey’s tripe, thats the good stuff, thats what they will eat first, thats where lots of balanced nutrients are.
When starting a raw diet with puppies (especially small breed) you best start with chicken, because low fat and easier digested than ground beef. Because I tried both, beef (grass fed 95%lean) and chicken. He regurgitated the whole ground beef everytime he ate it. He never did with the chicken. The wing helps cleaning his teeth and he gets supplements from the core of the bone and calcium.1 egg a week for breakfast. I give bone meal since he does not yet get enough bones in his food yet. Once he is used to the chicken and wings/necks I will start to join some liver and heart and green tripe little by little to not upset his digestion. Than we will do the same with duck, lamb and rabbit including organ and muscle meat as well. Of course a meaty bone everyday or 3 times a week.
Once established his likes than we can start feeding 1 day chicken, next duck and so on. I forgot the fish. Some fresh fish once a week is important as well.
I think probiotics , enzymes and clay are a must have in the kitchen. So is ionic silver and therapeutic grade essential oils like geranium, peppermint, frankincense and lemon. When they get lose stool some clay with enzymes/probiotics and diarrhea is cleared.
I use ionic silver to disinfect drinking water, once in a while internal against parasites and to clear my Shih Tzu’s eyes (14yrs). He suffers dry eyes and since he is on raw diet as well since 2 weeks his dry eye symptoms are already totally gone!! Yeahhhh! Now I hope to see changes in his coat like color and softness. His constant fear should disappear as well and his appetite should get better and better. I really hope to gain some more years of his company. I love him so much and hope we can gain back as much health as he has lost due to those bad kibble diet. He lost some of his hair on his back and I truly hope the high protein intake will fix most of his problems.
I stopped using vaccines on my Shih Tzu since 10yrs, neither I believe in spaying/neuter dogs. My pup received vaccines from her Vet, he won’t ever receive any other vaccines in his life. I dont believe it does any good, not for pets and neither for humans. Build up a healthy immune system and eat organic food and you will be fine!!! Same for dogs. THEY ARE DOGS NOT HUMANS!!! THEY DESERVE TO EAT HOW NATURE DESIGNED THEM TO.

[Brian S]

Hi there,
I have a 10 year old Staffordshire that was having recurring diarrhea. After her Xray showed up nothing and blood work showed calcium and protein deficiency plus raised white blood cells ,we knew there was a pretty major problem absorbing nutrients in her digestive tract,she had also lost a lot of weight.Without surgery and a biopsy ($1400 +) there was no way to know for certain but the vet thought it could be anything from pancreatitis to cancer.Ultimatelyshe was treated with anti-parasites and antibiotics to rule out those as a cause and then a course of steroids to reduce inflammation. The only food she could eat without getting diarrhea was Royal Canin gastro intestinal which of course is ridiculously expensive and here in Canada at least is only sold by vets. After much research I found that it wasnt because this was so low in fat that she could tolerate it but in fact because of the addition of a naturally occuring compound called Zeolite which Royal Canin add to the food. It is listed on their ingredients as Sodium aluminate silica. It works as a powerful anti-diarrheal and has also been tested with some success as an anti carcinogenic (http://www.researchgate.net/publication/11905741_Natural_zeolite_clinoptilolite_new_adjuvant_in_anticancer_therapy). The only other non-prescription dog foods that I can find that contain it are Royal Canin Sensitive digestion and Derma comfort which are available in pet stores.These are more affordable than the gastrointestinal one and do have higher fat and protein levels. You can also buy Zeolite as a food supplement online and that will be my next step.

[Bobby dog]

Derek:
Did you look at the recommended food list for large breed dogs I posted for you on 3/9 2:24 p.m.? It’s a good place to start. Regardless if the food is from that list, the Editors Choice list for large breed puppies, or another option, along with following your Vet’s advice for an LID & low protein food look for a one that has the recommended calcium ratio for large breeds. Be sure to read the article I posted a link to in that post as well.

I’ll see if one of the regulars who has experience with this parasite can pop in with some advice to help you.

[Anonymous]

I mentioned in 2 previous posts in this thread what has helped my dog, he has not had a recurrence in in 4 years and is 14 years old. He had a uti, was treated and then ultrasound revealed both type of stones, he required emergency surgery.

Your dog seems kind of young for this problem. Ask the vet if she is at risk due to her breed? Was she spayed recently? Is this a complication of that surgery? The UTIs, vaginitis? Is she going into heat?
Ask if potassium citrate/cranberry tablets would help?

Increased water, add it to the food is a must, my dog laps it up to get to the food (4 small meals per day). Frequent bathroom breaks, keep things flowing.
Ask the vet if she has struvite or calcium oxalate stones? Or both? An ultrasound is a good idea.
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_canine_struvite_bladder_stones.html

“Struvite stones form in urine with a high pH (alkaline urine), diets should help to maintain a low pH (acidic urine). Diets with animal-based protein sources are most important in maintaining an acidic pH, while
vegetarian or cereal-based diets are more likely to cause and alkaline urine”.

“With Calcium Oxalate stones, a high protein diet can cause stones by increasing calcium in the urine. It lowers urinary pH and can increase uric acid. High quantities of animal protein can contribute to stone formation by increasing urinary calcium and oxalic acid excreting and by decreasing urinary citric acid excretion”.

“Your should increase your dog’s water consumption to help dilute the urine. You can do this by adding water to your dog’s food, it should look like wet mush. Avoid table scraps when caring for an oxalate stone-forming dog”.

“Depending on the kind of stone, you either want more, or less protein, and lower in fat (3 -8%). Be sure to check with your veterinarian before changing your dog’s diet”.

PS: Vaccinations should only be given to healthy dogs.
http://vitalanimal.com/vaccinations-consider-carefully/

• This reply was modified 11 years, 2 months ago by Anonymous.

[Stacey A]

Hi. We’ve been making our own dog food for many years and I feel like it’s selfish not to share with others the way we make it economically. I realize the majority of people don’t have access to the same resources that we have but some people might benefit from this information and it really saves a lot of money while being very good for the dogs.

The #1 most important item we have to make this possible is our large pressure cooker. The reason it is so important is that when you pressure cook a chicken the bones become very soft and crumbly like chalk. You can literally take the leg bone of a pressure cooked chicken and pinch it into pieces between your thumb and forefinger. No splinters – and LOTS of calcium and other minerals. This only works with chicken. The bones of turkey, beef, pork etc. will not crumble this way. We have not tried it with fish and we do intend to, at some point. The pressure cooker is well worth the expense because keeping the bones really makes a chicken go a lot further and provides the dogs with a lot of nutrition.

We live on a farm and raise chickens for our friends and family and process them here. All we ask for, in exchange for the work we do raising the chickens, is the cost of feed and all of the “byproducts”, which we use in our homemade dog food. So basically we raise chickens and get paid with dog food. I’m not sure if our definition of “byproducts” is the same as the definition on the dog food bags but, if it is, “byproducts” are definitely not a bad thing. We keep all of the backs, necks, bones and organs (but not the stomach or intestines or feathers or heads/beaks). We would keep the feet because, believe it or not, there is a LOT of meat on feet and they are full of glucosamine etc. In many cultures, people eat the feet after the scales and toenails are removed. Unfortunately my husband is so grossed out by the appearance of the feet that he insists we throw them away and won’t even allow us to give them to the dogs.

I realize others don’t have access to the byproducts that we do but you can just use whole chickens and get the same results. When you cook a chicken for your family you wind up throwing over half of it away. Don’t throw away any part of your store-bought whole chicken, not the giblets or the skin or the necks or bones. If you want to keep the breasts for yourselves and give the rest of the chicken to the dogs you’re getting a very economical meal or two for yourself and the dogs.

So – just throw your whole chickens into your pressure cooker with some water and pressure cook them for 45 minutes to an hour. We think garlic is good for dogs and add a lot of it to the chicken but some people feel like garlic is bad for dogs because it comes from the same family as onions. As far as I know, no studies have been done. It depends on your altitude and what weight you use on the pressure cooker and it might take some trial and error – but cook them until the bones just crumble between your fingers. For us that’s 45 minutes at 10 pounds of pressure. Keep the broth to add to the water you cook your grains in.

Next, cook up an equal amount of rice or oatmeal, wheat berries, amaranth – whatever grains you have cheap and easy access to. We’ll use anything except for corn meal because we don’t want to feed anything GMO to our dogs. Oatmeal and rice are very cheap. There’s some controversy over potatoes but a lot of people feel potatoes are fine to feed to dogs instead of or in addition to grains.

Next, an equal amount of veggies. There’s some controversy as to whether or not the dogs actually need the veggies but they’re a good filler, they’re cheap, and they’re probably good for the dogs. We use stuff from our garden and also go to GFS and get the huge cans of green beans, carrots, and peas.

Just mix everything together and package it up – 1/3 meat, 1/3 carbs and 1/3 veggies. We currently feed our dogs 50% homemade dog food and 50% kibble just to make sure they get a lot of variety, but kibble makes us nervous. You never know when your brand is going to be on the recall list. We’d switch to 100% homemade dog food but we’d have to have a lot more chicken that way and we don’t believe in buying meat. We don’t like to eat anything we haven’t raised ourselves so we know for sure there aren’t any hormones etc. and that the animals were raised and butchered humanely and with very good sanitation.

We also feed the dogs other things when they’re available. We raise milk goats and have access to a lot of fresh raw goat milk – we have been careful not to give the dogs too much goat milk because we don’t want them to get diarrhea but we’ve never had any bad results from giving them small amounts of the raw goat milk or goat yogurt. Goat milk is so much more digestible than cow milk, and if you make it into yogurt or kefir the lactose gets removed. Also, kombucha is very good for the dogs and prevents cancer. We make our own and it only costs about 30 cents per gallon to make.

We have always had large breed dogs – shepherds, shepherd mixes. They’ve lived 13-14 years so we must be feeding them right.

[GSDsForever]

Congratulations on your new puppy! Good for you in wanting to provide a good diet & care for him.

When feeding a large or giant breed, particularly one especially prone to structural development problems, I would exercise extreme caution in diet & exercise/movement restrictions during growth and make that my priority.

French Mastiffs (or Dogue de Bordeaux) have a rate of more than 50% of individuals having hip dysplasia, per the OFA. This is one of the highest of all breeds.

Most of this is genetically inherited, and so much of your risk depends upon the breeder of your puppy & the 4-5 generation pedigree behind him (& their littermates), the percentage OFA’d (or given a similar non-U.S. normal rating).

So I would look for foods like on HDM’s DFA list that have appropriate total calcium & calcium to phosphorous ratios. You also want to carefully avoid over feeding, feed to keep your pup on the skinny side & with frequent weight checks to ensure that your pup does not grow too fast. But I would also recommend to you that you get in touch with breeders of your breed who have been breeding a long time & have had an excellent track record of producing dogs with normal hips & feeding for normal hips. Beyond diet it will be important to take care with the type of exercise and amount — again following successful breeders’ recommendations and researched guidelines.

Good luck and welcome!

[Dori]

Hi John. Firstly I just wanted to post about Marie’s suggestions. She want be upset with me as she’s a friend of mine and is fabulous at helping others with their canines.

California Naturals does have a Kangaroo grain free but the protein is incredibly low. 21 % to AAFCO standards.

Natures Logic Rabbit contains turkey meal, chicken fat, chicken liver, dried egg product and egg shells (for calcium).

Grandma Lucy’s Pureformance (their grain free line) is freeze dried food. Their foods that do not have any poultry or beef are: Rabbit, Goat and Lamb. (Be forewarned…fairly large poops on Grandma Lucy’s but it does have a good reputation with a lot of feeders).

On to the questions you just asked of me. Since you are already feeding your dogs a raw diet, transitioning to a commercial raw diet will be very easy for you and your dogs if, in fact, that is the route you want to take. Transitioning to raw is much simpler and quicker especially with dogs that are already eating raw. Also because you already feed grain free that will make it a bit easier as their guts are in better and healthier conditions than dogs fed their entire lives on foods that contain massive amounts of carbs and lower quality foods. Now, I’m assuming at this point that the only known allergens are poultry and beef. I would stay away from any and all poultry (all fowl….anything with feathers). Since you say that Bella reacted violently to Bison after only a few hours you’ll be able to tell fairly quickly if a new food is going to bother her. Typically when I first started out with rotation feeding I could tell within 3 days how Katie was doing on it. If she was going to have loose stools or vomitting, scratching, gas, bad breath and everything else that goes along with food sensitivities it would happen fairly quickly so I stopped feeding that food and went on to the next. In your case I would probably tell you to start with one food and if they do well on it then feed only that food for two or three months just to give their guts a bit more healing time and “detoxing” as it’s called. At that time you will already have bought the next food you want to try within that brand if there is another protein without any allergens that your dogs may have. If that brand doesn’t, then move on to the next brand. If all goes well I would then feed that food and start looking for the next protein within that brand you want to try. Every time you are done with one bag you move on to the next. Every time with a different protein within the same brand. Keep a detailed list of the foods you have tried and what, if any, reactions they had. Once you’ve exhausted the different proteins in your first brand then you move on to the next brand and start rotating through their proteins that your dogs can eat. Then you move on to the next brand. Before you know it you may be able to have 4 or 5 foods that your dogs can eat and do well on. You can then continue to rotate within these brands and proteins every time you have to buy a bag of food. You can then start rotating with the different foods you have in the freezer every day, every couple of days, every meal as I do, whatever. I rotate as often as I do because Katie can’t tolerate anything for more than a meal or two. She probably can at this point but since I’ve been doing it this way for so long and they’re all just fine with it and because I wouldn’t eat the same thing for breakfast and dinner I figure why should they. I also can’t afford for her to become allergic to anything more than she already is. In rotating foods if some ingredient bothers her a little or there is a pro-inflammatory ingredient in the food (which I try my best to avoid but not always possible) then she’s only getting it for one meal. Rotating foods for all dogs is, in my opinion, the healthiest way to feed canines but especially for canines with food intolerances.

Please keep in mind that the log (list) is very very important. In keeping a list it will also better inform you if your dog is having an issue with the protein or is it another ingredient in the food. If you feed rabbit and Bella has issues with it and then you move on to goat and the same thing happens, then you have to compare the ingredient labels of both those foods and see what other ingredients do both foods have in common other than the protein. When starting to gather foods for dogs with allergies it’s easy to assume that it’s the labeled protein in the food and keep moving from food to food thinking your dog is intolerant of every single protein. Typically that’s not the case. It’s that we forgot that they could be allergic or intolerant of any other ingredient in the foods. So it’s important…..keep a log of foods you feed and the ingredients in the foods. You can print out the ingredient list from their web sites or you can take a picture of the ingredient label on the bag itself for reference purposes.

“Toppers” by the way is just a term that’s used meaning anything that you would put on top of the food you already have in their bowl. I would suggest you not use any of them at all until you have some foods that you can easily feed to your dogs with no allergy symptoms. You’ll confuse the issue if you start adding other things. You won’t know which or what is causing the symptoms. I do add things to my dogs foods but I did not in the beginning. Had to find the foods first. Then started adding little things to see what the affect would be.

Plain Kefir (you can buy it in grocery stores) acts like plain yogurt in that it contains friendly “probiotic” bacteria that helps the gut. I will add here that my allergy girl, Katie, cannot have kefir, yogurt or cheese. Actually I’ve yet to find a probiotic that doesn’t contain something (yeast, or whatever) that she doesn’t have issues with. She’s too intolerant of them and the craziness starts all over again. Not saying that your dogs will react, but owners of dogs with food sensitivities have to be very careful of every single thing that eat. Their immune systems are pretty much in a weakened state especially until their immune system improves on better foods, less toxins and carbs to deal with. 70% of the immune system is in the gut.

Allergy symptoms can be skin issues and/or digestive issues as is the case with Katie. Once I cleared up all her food issues her digestive and skin issues all disappeared.

Once on line please check out all pro-inflammatory foods, fruits and veggies. Allergies are an inflammatory based issue so you need to avoid those foods as best you can. It’s not always easy to eliminate each and every single one but do your best to avoid as much as possible. That’s also a good reason for rotation. If one of your foods does have pro-inflammatory ingredients your dog will not be getting them for too long a time.

If you find, eventually, that your dogs are not allergic to sardines then you can give them sardines packed in water with no salt added (canned in the grocery store) two or three times a week (as a “topper”) on top or mixed in with the food in their bowls. Sardines are an excellent form of Omega 3 which most foods are lacking. Most foods have plenty of Omega 6’s and not enough Omega 3’s to balance them out. That is true most especially in kibble foods. On the days that I don’t give my dogs sardines I keep a bottle refrigerated of Nature’s Logic Sardine oil. Oils go rancid fairly quickly so it’s best kept refrigerated and also says it on the bottle I believe. Anyway, once I’ve put their meals in their bowls, and on the days I don’t add sardines, I splash a little of the sardine oil on top of their food in their bowls and promptly put the bottle back in fridge and immediately give the dogs their bowls of food. I believe the oil has the dosing on the bottle. Please do not give your dogs salmon oil as we already know that they had issues with the salmon food. Also, salmon and tuna have the most amount of mercury in them due to their long lives. I don’t feed either because of those reasons. Sardines and krill have the least as they have very short lives and very short digestive tracks.

Just for your info I realize that I didn’t tell you what type of dogs I have or anything other than Katie’s allergies. So, Hannah (my avatar) is my 15 1/2 year old Maltese. Katie is my 5 1/2 year old Maltipoo and Lola is my 5 1/2 year old Yorkipoo.

One more thing. I no longer have my dogs vaccinated. I do the titers on the core vaccines. Rabies vaccine in my area is only required every three years. Though recently I’ve learned that the county I live in will accept rabies titers. Very few counties in the country are on board with titers for rabies. I don’t believe that any dog should be vaccinated unnecessarily. Dogs with allergies shouldn’t be vaccinated. Of course, I am in favor of doing all the initial puppy vaccinations spaced out as they should be. Each vaccine should be done separately and not the three in one type. It’s too much of an overload on their systems. After those initially puppy shots which, if memory serves me, ends when they are about a year old. After that having your vet do titers to check their antibodies to the core illnesses will let you know when and if they have to be vaccinated again.

[Pam P]

I feed my dog Answers fermented raw food and kefir. My son’s Mastiff mix had such itchy skin she had to go on antibiotics for a wound she scratched raw that wouldn’t heal. I started her for one month on Nature’s Logic Sardine. Nature’s Logic is one of a very few that doesn’t use synthetic vitamins and minerals. The synthetic vitamins and minerals come mostly from industrial waste such as coal tar for one. They aren’t good for humans and they aren’t good for pets. She started detoxifying on Nature’s Logic. Then I put her on Answers Fermented Raw food for a month. The itching became less. Now she is on only Kefir for a month and her itching has just about stopped. The kefir is a detox diet. She hasn’t lost weight. Her energy is 300% higher. I’ll see how she does after another 2 weeks to see if we gradually get her back on food or keep her on kefir for another 2 weeks. The key is to clean and detoxify the system and then to make sure the immune system is strengthened. Allergies are an immune system issue. I also give my dogs organic extra virgin coconut oil, sardine oil, pumpkin seed oil, and royal jelly. Royal jelly is excellent for the skin and coat. Its what the queen bee is fed. I learned that from an owner of champion show dogs. I have also given them canned sardines. Frozen sardines can be purchased in bulk online. They have small bones which are loaded with calcium. If I was going to feed kibble, I would lean towards Nature’s Logic or one that doesn’t use synthetic vitamins and minerals. They are a little lower on the meat, so I would add gizzards and some raw meat to it, preferably a balanced frozen meat. There are several to chose from….Nature’s Logic, Primal, Instinct, and others. I hope this gives you some ideas.

[brit]

I use eggshells for calcium if I am cooking the meat or using raw meat without bones. We use organic eggs for ourselves and our pets so I collect at least 6 eggshells, rinse the shells with cool water and leave to dry overnight. I put them in my little Braun coffee grinder (also handy for grinding dry herbs etc) and grind them to a powdery consistency. Use approx 1/2tsp per lb of meat. If I give chicken necks that morning (usually give them at least twice a week)I don’t worry about calcium that evening I buy Wholistic Pet Canine Complete and use on the food (I use half the dose that they suggest) as a supplement plus some herbs that I grind and add. During the winter I give a tsp of Carlsons Cod Liver Oil (unflavored) a couple times a week (its low in A and D which is good as some is way to high). I make all my own dog food but often cook and also often feed raw (usually Primal raw). So if I am buying something like Primal I don’t need to add calcium because it has bone ground in. Usually breakfast is cooked sweet potato/plain goat yogurt/raw egg yolk although often I buy canned Alaskan salmon, rinse it and use a small amount. Then evening meal is either the Primal with crushed raw veggies (I put them through my Greenstar Juicer which has a gadget that allows them to come through whole but crushed) or cooked meat with the veggies. If I have a dog that needs to gain weight I throw in some organic oat flakes while meat is cooking.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 3 months ago by brit.
• This reply was modified 11 years, 3 months ago by brit.

[Peter G]

I have a GSD/Doberman mix puppy. She was started on Merrick Grain Free puppy but I then read that the calcium content was too high. I am thinking of Orijen Large Breed puppy but noticed it is not on the list (see below). Can someone tell me why it is not on the list as it is supposed to be a superior dog food?
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFY183Q0NVRXlidWc/edit

Roxie

[Shawna]

Hi Kim S,

Pugmomsandy sent me an email letting me know you might have some questions for me. Thanks Sandy!!

Nitrogen trapping has been very very useful in helping to keep Audrey feeling well. When her breath gets a bit funky or she seems depressed I give her Garden of Life Primal Defense probiotics and Fiber35 Sprinkle Fiber as the probiotic (both are products marketed for humans). I tried other “fermentable” fibers (like barley, apple pectin etc) but Sprinkle Fiber had the best results.

The product I absolutely MUST have for her however is Standard Process Canine Renal Support. She’s been on it for over seven years. I can explain why I feel so strongly about this product if you wish — kinda technical.

Some other things that I rotate in her diet are spirulina, chlorella, food grade activated charcoal, burdock root (another really good fermentable fiber (but she got tired of the strong taste)), milk thistle and more. I mix five or so super foods/supps with an equal amount of enzymes and sprinkle on most of her meals.

Turmeric would be very beneficial for dogs with kidney disease as well but sadly Audrey doesn’t tolerate it well.

Giving ultra clean (like RO) water is important too. Evian water is both clean and a good source of a specific kind of calcium called calcium bicarbonate. Mineral waters higher in calcium (and lower in sodium) have shown some benefits for kidney disease.

I would recommend raw to any that can feed it, gently home cooked if raw is not an option or canned if raw and home cooked are not options.

Absolutely no chemicals like flea/tick or heartworm meds and no vaccines (including rabies).

I’m not sure how much info you’re wanting so sorry if I went overboard. 🙂 There’s tons more I can tell you if interested (like keep oil soluble chlorophyll on hand in case of anemia).

[Cait Y]

Ok so I have lurked here for a little over a year, and recently started making my own raw cat food via Lisa A. Pierson, DVM because one of my boys almost died after getting into the Dry food AGAIN and his whole GI system blocked up because he cannot handle the lack of fluids in dry food. He is such a picky eater that I had put off the raw diet dreading that he would turn his nose up at it like he did the other high quality raw/semi cooked food I tried buying him. He LOVED the home made food, he even batted off his BFF to eat his food too!
HoundDogMom, other raw feeders please bear with me I know that the whole shebang I know as of now it is 6 pages long. I am trying to paint the whole picture with the dogs, their special needs and what is causing me confusion with the Raw feeding books I have read. There is so much going on right now in my personal life that I am having a very hard time understanding this and if anyone could help point me in the right direction or even a book or website or from experience I would be so very very grateful.
The biggest reservation I have about feeding Raw to the dogs (who LOVED the scoop of homemade cat food I gave them as a test) are the bones and sadly the limited ingredients I can use for my Special Needs Hound.
I have a 14 yr old Walker hound (Forest) who has like no teeth left and was just diagnosed with cushing’s disease but has some pretty abnormal liver tests because of the damage that was done while he went undiagnosed. His liver is so enlarged it displaces his stomach sideways and upwards which makes EASILY digestible food a must. He cannot have food high in phosphorus, copper or ammonia which means little to no red meat and lots of poultry, eggs and pork. He also has problems with chronic Constipation so I would have to be VERY careful about the amount of bone I add to his diet but I also want enough in there to give him the nutrients he needs. Since he is older he also burns a LOT of calories, He is on Vital Fresh pet Turkey or Chicken and gets 1.5 lbs a day. I don’t know what is causing him to burn so many calories except for old age or maybe his body is trying to repair itself – all he does is lounge in the lawn and do his hound dance for food – people or animal whichever he can mac on at the moment lol
My 3 yr old yellow lab (Nova) is also a high calorie burner but she is super active, we do scent tracking, retrieving, and lots of walking/running on the grass. She will go until she drops which I have never seen before, so now I watch her very closely for signs she is over heated. She eats up to 2 lbs of the above dog food a day but is still losing weight on occasion when her activity jumps up again. She has always had double the amount of Eosinophils in her blood that she should at a “normal” rate. She has been checked for parasites so the best I can come up with is that she might have GI issues going on intermittently – she doesn’t transition food gracefully and really doesn’t tolerate even high quality kibble (after research it’s not such a mystery anymore) which is in part what turned me onto Freshpets Vital.
To top it all off I have a Four month old female lab puppy (Ellie) that is still growing. I have her on 2 lbs of Freshpets vital but I am worried that she is not getting something in her diet as well. She has three white lines running across her nails – each nail on every paw. In my experience when the horses have white lines or even indents it means either they were very very sick or have a mineral/vitamin deficiency of some sort. I know when Ellie came to us she had a severe infection of hook and round worms. Her infection was so severe at 8 weeks old that the vet said she would have died untreated – thank you OCD and taking her to the Vet the same day she was brought home lol. They were resistant to the normal worming meds and for 2 months we battled with getting them under control and gone. If Dogs are like horses that would cause the lines because of how sick she was during this (Great going Lemon law Florida) yet I also worry because I know parasites in small animals or even large can cause a huge system imbalance with nutrients which hinders growth.
OK Limited ingredients – because of Forest I have to stick to Chicken, Turkey, and Eggs as a main protein source due to his liver problems and because Rabbit in completely unviable to me unless I want to raise them myself. I have no local butcher – the closest one is three hours away so Chicken and Turkey liver will have to do for organ meat – sometimes I can get chicken hearts once in a blue moon. For Fats I have to choose VERY easily digestible fats from an animal protein because with Forests Liver problems his biliary system can be overloaded very easily and that would be disastrous. Maybe I can add some duck occasionally to his diet?

Copper Issues:
If ammonia restriction is required, feed less red meats and organs since they produce the most ammonia. You may not want to eliminate them entirely though, as they have important nutrients that help with liver function.
Instead, cut back. Feed more poultry, fish, eggs, and pork. If feeding red meat, even in small quantities, buy the absolute best quality you can afford. Preferably grass fed, antibiotic, and hormone free.

Meats generally low in copper are:
• Beef (muscle meat, not organs)
• Eggs
• Turkey (white meat)
• Chicken (white meat)
• Rabbit
• Fish
Meats generally high in copper are:
• Lamb
• Pork
• Pheasant or Quail
• Duck
• Goose
• Salmon
• Organ Meats
When feeding organs for copper issues, some animal livers contain more copper than others. Beef liver is higher in copper than chicken or pork livers. Regardless, the zinc and b vitamins in liver help to reduce the risk of copper toxicity. Though if your dog has an issue with copper, opt for chicken or pork liver. (http://primalpooch.com/raw-feeding-guidelines-dogs-liver-disease/)

I have read Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet and Dr. Pitcairn’s New Complete Guide to Health of Dogs and Cats. I have some major issues with either of the books, UtCaD is so absolute – if you feed this protein then you need this oil. First of all Canola Oil? Corn Oil? Soybean Oil? Walnut oil? Flax and hemp seed oil? I own horses and I would NEVER give them Corn oil with the GMO crap going around I don’t trust Corn or Canola at all. If I am not comfortable feeding to my strict Herbivores I am definitely not OK feeding it to the other animals. By the way the 2,000 lbs animals have had major GI upset from Canola, Corn, Soybean and Flax seed oil. I’ve given it to them in small amounts – 3 tablespoons a day and I have seen a massive systemic effect that made me take them off of it immediately. It was supposed to give them the right ratio of Omega’s 3 and 6 plus help my older guys move and keep weight on since it was winter. The recommended Ratio of 6 to 3 fats are 10:1 to 5:1 for dogs – I have read that small fish or Krill are the best to supplement dogs with because of the low contamination rate and it should not carry Salmon Sickness. Soybean oil is also something I would never give my dogs or humans or anything because of the way it can mimic hormones and interrupt the function of the Thyroid. Also Kelp is recommended a lot, but there are so many negatives that came out during the feeding kelp to horse’s fad that I will not touch the stuff. If it can affect the horses with the amount of iodine to the point horses became toxic I don’t trust the manufactures. It was not that kelp was being fed in large amounts there was absolutely no regulation on what type they harvested or what it contained. Missing link for dogs is a product I am familiar with and they do make it for dogs with trace minerals but it is flax based. Won’t this completely mess up the balancing? Does anyone here feed this instead of kelp?
The Missing Link Ultimate Skin & Coat:
Active Ingredients (per tbsp)
Flaxseed Dried Kelp
Glucosamine Hydrochloride (Vegetarian) Zinc Monomethionine
Freeze Dried Beef Liver Lecithin
Blackstrap Molasses Chromium Yeast
Rice Bran Selenium Yeast
Primary Dried Yeast Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6)
Sunflower Seed Niacin (Vitamin B3)
Dehydrated Alfalfa Garlic Powder
Dried Carrot Yucca Schidigera Extract
Shark Cartilage Powder* Riboflavin (Vitamin B2)
Freeze Dried Fish Protein Powder Thiamine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B1)
Freeze Dried Oyster Powder Folic Acid
Barley Grass Leaves Powder Cobalamin (Vitamin B12)
Guaranteed Analysis Amount
Crude Protein (not less than) 18%
Crude Fat (not less than) 28%
Crude Fiber (not more than) 15%
Moisture (not more than) 10%
Linoleic Acid (Omega 6) 450 mg
**Linolenic Acid (Omega 3) 1000 mg
**Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Cat/Dog food nutrient profiles.

Also if everything is so precise that does not leave room for error such as what if the chickens were raised on Florida soil which is heavy in limestone and deficient in other areas – rather than let’s say somewhere in the bread bowl what about if they were fed a corn based feed and another batch was fed free range? If the meat analysis is different it throws everything off and we all know that meat from south Fl is very different than meat from MI or IN – same principle goes with growing vegetables even organic. How much of a God Factor is there for the abundance of some micronutrients and lack of others? UTCAD also has an abundance of some nutrients way over the NRC guidelines – are dogs different in the fact that they can rid themselves of excess things very easily? I know in humans and horses Vit E and Selenium can be deadly because it builds up in fat and the body doesn’t flush it out like the water-soluble vitamins?
Dr. Pitcairn’s New Complete Guide to Health has a lot of oat meal, rice, beans?! Half and Half milk, whole milk, whole wheat bread corn? That sounds not so great for dogs and especially not for cats like it says it can be. What about kidney beans? With feeding my dogs I have learned they do OK on rice occasionally when they have an upset GI but if they are on a diet with rice too long they get backed up. Also the beans – the dogs seem to have issues with digesting them like people sometimes do – why are there so many carbohydrates? Why cannot I do sprouted microgreens or carrots or even baked potatoes because I know the dogs tolerate those vegetables very well. Also Brewer’s Yeast? Isn’t yeast as a whole bad? It’s in everything and I know Nova already is prone to yeast infections in her ears and when she gets a UTI – Also can Brewer’s yeast cause or attribute to bloat? Milk – isn’t milk products bad if they are in large amounts such as 2 cups milk plus 2 cups rolled oats and 2 eggs and calcium powder? Everything to me seems so skewed.
Also RMB are out of the question – Forest cannot eat them and Nova and Ellie are gulpers – they came from a large litter and it would be just my luck to end up in emergency surgery with one of them. I have a grinder to which I can grind the bone up with the meat and I know the purpose of the bone was for dental health but if I make Meat Jerky and other goodies can I replicate that without worrying about emergency surgery or broken teeth?
Since I own a grinder already for cat food why cannot I grind bones to supplement their food with? So far in my research the basic recipe and consensus I have come across is as follows:
16% Organ meat
10% – 25% Bone
The rest of the food would be muscle meat and muscle meat
Meat is very high in phos and the bone is high in Cal which means the Cal to Phos ratio should be 1.2 to 1.5:1 although 1:1 to 2.5:1 is ok as well. I just need to make sure the dogs consume more Cal than Phos but the question is do I need to add bone meal or can I grind my own bones to supplement?
Here is what the Article analysis the bone content to be in prey animals:
Bone Content In Raw Foods
When sourcing bones for your dog’s diet, it’s a good idea to know the approximate amount of bone in commonly sourced foods. Here is a quick guide to help you keep your dog’s bone content in the right range; between 10% and 25%.
Chicken Whole chicken (not including the head and feet): 25% bone/Leg quarter: 30%/Split breast: 20%/Thigh: 15%/Drumstick: 30%/Wing: 45%/Neck: 36%/Back: 45%/Turkey/Whole turkey: 21%/Thigh: 21%/Drumstick: 20%/Wing: 37%/Neck: 42%/Back: 41%
Pork Feet: 30%/Tails: 30%/Ribs: 30%
Beef Ribs: 52%
Rabbit Whole rabbit (fur and all): 10% Whole (dressed): 25-30%

From this can I remove the proper amount of bones or add more bones in to balance or would you suggest a bone meal powder? Also I have yet to factor in the percentage of vegetable/fruit/microgreens in the recipe – I am just so lost so if HoundDogMom could help or someone else could chime in I would be so grateful. I am trying very hard to learn as much as I can but between the animals and two sick family members and special needs animals by the time I have a moment to sit down I am out like a light for the night or my brain is so frazzled everything looks like it was written in French. Am I over thinking this? I just don’t want to screw Ellie up – she has already had such a bad start with the worm infection – and Forest needs nutrients to rebuild his liver correctly and I wanted to see if this change in diet would help Nova’s Eosinophils come to a normal level. Also has anyone ever seen white lines on every toenail that grows parallel with the skin? Any help would be so appreciated there is just not a lot of room for error with Forest right now with his liver Alt levels 4 times what they are supposed to be. They cannot stay on the Freshpet much longer because to feed the dogs its 19 dollars a day and that’s not a very good long term solution.
Thanks so much everyone~!~ I Hope everyone had a great New Year and wonderful Holiday
`RedMare

[peter d]

Hi all,I’m new here having stumbled onto this site,and what caught my attention are statements about high or low protein.
Also Mike suggests for anyone to share knowledge-so here goes.
I speak with over 50 years of experience of commercial animal production with various species.Nutrition has always been my driving interest and study-by necessity-we had our own feed plant.
I have discovered some amazing things,by following ideas and hunches and putting them into practice.
With nearly all species the protein requirements lessen as animals grow.
With dogs however, it seems to me that manufacturers use high protein as a marketing tool-as users seem to think the higher protein-the better the food!
Puppy biscuits in particular at 29-30% protein and recommended to be fed to 12 and even 24 mths old!
This is a monumental mistake and a major cause of hip Dysplasia in dogs-and I’ll tell you why.
Proteins produce acids-the higher the protein-the more acids. The body attempts to neutralise this by using Calcium from the food intake and,invariably, leeches Calcium from the bones-which in a young pup-which are not born with bones-but need to develop and grow-and the larger the breed the more they have to grow.
2 of these acids cause secretion of the Calcium via the urine.
It is a major although not the only mnutritional cause of CHD.
I have always had large breed dogs as well-the last 15 years as a breeder of Malamutes as a semi retirement pursuit and love of dogs.
As I write this having reared many hundreds of dogs,I am yet to see one with CHD.
Nutrition is by far the most important thing in life of all living things-humans too!
Peter