[Susan]

Hi Joanne,

Yes I heard the same thing, it was the “Zignature Kangaroo” formula it’s very high red & green lentils, like I said these pet food companies up the protein % with plant proteins instead of having more Kangaroo meat cause Roo is more expensive in America, thats why I email Zignature a year ago & asked them where are they getting their kangaroo meat from?? cause I knew Zignature had changed their Zignature Kangaroo formula & added red Lentils there’s not much kangaroo meat in the dry Zignature formula now, where it once was good when I use to recommend Zignature for dogs with food sensitivities & allergies so they are paying top dollar for their Kangaroo meal now…

Most Australian pet owners normally feed their dogs a dry kibble & they add some raw Kangaroo meat or raw meaty bones with the dry kibble..
We can buy raw meaty beef, chicken, kangaroo, Crocodile bones, Kangaroo tail, Kangaroo minced meat, from Pet Shops, I’d say its all By product meats healthy fresh By Product meats, By product Kangaroo is apparently is very healthy.
Our vets always recommend to add some raw Kangaroo to your dogs diet cause its very healthy, I cant handle the smell of Kangaroo, its has a strong meathy smell & tastes very rich meat, when its made into a dry kibble cooked & cooked at high tempretures this is when these byproduct meat lose their goodness & dont have all the goodness they once had…

Our dead Kangaroos, dead cows, dead horses that are on the side of the road are picked up by the local council, the council for that area is informed & a garbage truck goes & gets the dead animal off the rd within 24hr & it’s put into the garbage truck, then it’s taken to the tip & if its a dead dog or dead cat the animal is scanned for a microchip & owner is notified, if there’s no Micro Chip the cat or dog is throwned into the garbage truck & taken to the local tip…
I’d say America probably does the same thing, all road kill probably ends up as land fill…
I hope it does cause Patch eats American made kibble, he seems to do better with his IBD then the Australian made grain free formula’s, he does OK on some Australian made grain dry kibbles but better with the Potato, Sweet potato grain free US kibbles.

I use my nose, as soon as I open a new bag of kibble I smell it, some kibbles smell OK when the kibble bags is first opened, then after 1-2 weeks I re smell the kibble thats in air tight containers & some kibbles starts to have an “awful” off meat smell & of cause Patch likes this kibble BUT I throw it out or I take it back to the Pet shop it’s an expensive brand, But Wellness & Canidae kibbles always stay & smell the same as they smelt when I first opened up the kibble bag, they dont smell worse after 2-3 weeks, where some Australian, made kibbles smelt awful & I’ve noticed the ones that were Fish started to get a rotten fishy smell after 2 weeks…

Start smelling your dry kibble from the day you open the bag then after it’s been in Air tight container or in it’s orginal kibble bag & see does the smell stay the same or get worse??
Then you’ll know rotten rendered meats were used, I think the kibbles that start to smell of rotten meat after 1-2 weeks have use rendered rotten meats….

How’s your sick dog going? I don’t know his name, is he doing much better now he’s on the different Pro Plan Sensitive kibble?
He might be like Patch, very sensitive & they know straight away when something isnt right with their food, cause a few American brands of kibble that ended up on the high toxins & contaminates list, Patch ate & became unwell after he ate those formula’s..
I use to feed fish thru the Summer months cause of Patches allergies then I’d rotate & feed Lamb or Pork thru the Winter months…

So sometimes toxins & contaminates play a big part in making our pets ill & die..

[joanne l]

I forgot to mention my neighbor, he is 80 yrs. old very nice man, he is not up to par like us with dog food. But he told me that no dog food is regulated like human food. So he said to me even the best food is still not like our food. He said this to me b/c I was telling him about all the dog food brands they have today, he was amazed, b/c in his day there was only Alpo and kenelration. So that’s how we started talking about it. And I wanted the best for my dog and that’s when he said no dog food is going to be good as human grade UDSA inspected. He was even skeptical about the good brands I mentioned. He feels that they are not going to give animals good stuff b/c today food is to expensive even for us. That was his thoughts. What surprised me about him is that he said dogs should be feed fresh meats and bones. Then he said “do you see the teeth a dog has”? I said ya. He said they are meant for tearing their food not eating mush or dry food. He is pretty wise man and he makes me laugh. Just wanted to share that with everyone.

[haleycookie]

Sheltie sass- did you read spy cars post? Protein has no bad effects on dogs. It’s a myth. In fact you suggest a raw diet which is almost completely made of protein, bones, and fat. I don’t think the protein levels are what’s the issue here. Just as spy car said dogs have no nutritional requirements to dogs (or cats) so adding rice would be counter productive to what the original poster is trying to do.

[aimee]

Was in Wal Mart and found these chews https://www.google.com/search?q=Ol+Roy+chicken+rawhide+free+bright+bones&client=firefox-b-1-ab&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=B0EmwZd-2q9tUM%253A%252C0Ub_5V9TZsYWNM%252C_&usg=AFrqEzf-KdEnDhy7L1RCJ51jTqMpYP-54Q&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwismpqdk4HdAhVOyYMKHc4WC58Q9QEwAnoECAYQBA&biw=1303&bih=694#imgrc=N5ICdpMrU0_0gM:

They look very much as “No Hide” by Earth Animal and have an ingredient line up similar to the old ingredient line up from E.A. Ingredients for the Ol Roy chew Chicken, pork gelatin, rice starch, sugar cane fiber, glycerin, carrageenan salt, potassium sorbate E.A. was chicken, chicken gelatin, brown rice flour, organic egg, olive oil banana and bromelain.

I did some of the same things with these chews as with E.A. No Hide. The material cracked when trying to unroll it and it is fairly easy to tear. Earth Animal product bends but never cracked and couldn’t be torn. I soaked the Ol Roy chew in water. It puffed up a bit and took on a slimy feel and fell apart when handled. Best way for me to describe it is to say it was like wet toilet paper. E.A. product puffs quite a bit after soaking, remains tough and unable to be torn. The Ol Roy product when boiled disintegrated. It left behind a milky water with build up around the pan edges. It started falling apart after about 10 seconds in the boiling water. The Earth Animal material can be boiled for hours and it shrinks and curls and remains tough after boiling. The Ol Roy product is very consistent in how it is rolled and in the thickness of the material and is made of a continuous sheet. The E.A. product varies significantly in the thickness of material the number of pieces in a roll and the shapes of those pieces.

This Ol Roy product behaves exactly as I’d expect a gelatin and flour product to behave. In comparison to rawhide the Ol Roy product appears like rawhide but simple test( soaking in tepid and boiling water) reveal it behaves nothing like rawhide The Earth Animal product looks like rawhide and when soaked in tepid water and boiling water behaves similarly to rawhide.

The Ol Roy treats are made in China, came in a 4 pack of ~4inch chews, sold for about $6.00 and met label weight.

[Spy Car]

As Haleycookie recommends, I hand fed when my pup was very young (we also started at 8 weeks), but by 6 months he was a pro at chewing bone. But whatever it takes.

Raw chicken bones (even frozen) are not nearly hard enough to damage teeth. It will make a dog chew.

Bill

• This reply was modified 7 years, 3 months ago by Spy Car.

[Acroyali]

Hi @Mabels’Mom…
Most raw feeders with puppies crush soft bones (chicken wings etc.) for puppies under 6 months. Some don’t, but we do.
What types of bones are you feeding? Wings are softer than thighs, etc.
If you’re concerned, take Haley’s suggestion and hand feed, or use HUGE pieces (whole chicken backs or half chickens) that force that pup to not gulp, and to actually chew and take away when they become small or the puppy slows down.
If you’re extremely worried, feed ground bone and huge meat (boneless) chunks until you find a solution you’re happy and comfortable with.
Also agreed with Spycar…don’t feed trolls =)

[haleycookie]

Along with spy cars recommendation I’ve seen some raw feeders feed with their hands. Just put on thick gloves and hold onto the bones and make the dog chew as much as possible.

[anonymous]

I would stop feeding any and all bones. I would seek veterinary care immediately to rule out stomach/bowel and colon obstruction/perforation (medical emergency) and get some advice as to how you should proceed with diet.

[Mabel’s Mom L]

Hi, am new to feeding raw and this forum.

I have an almost five month old Old English Sheepdog. She’s been getting raw food since she came home at 8 weeks, initially getting commercial freeze-dried raw. We’ve transitioned over time to fully fresh raw now. She eats chicken, pork and beef as the main protein sources, aside from the occasional egg and salmon.

My question pertains to proper handing of bone (chicken only!). She used to take time to chew the bones. Now, she’s swallowing them somewhat whole or lightly chewed. As a result, she sometimes passes 3 inch pieces of jagged chicken bone and has a tough time at it. What should I do? Crush the bone before feeding? give her bigger pieces that forces her to chew?

Thanks!

[Acroyali]

I dislike free feeding personally, unless you’re out of the home 8-10 hours a day.
If you have two babes, this can make it hard to see if one is not eating as well as they should.
If you’re away for hours, I’d say free feed but keep the puppies separate but close by one another so you can see whom is eating what, and how much, and if one goes off their food, you’ll catch it immediately vs. days later when it might be approaching the “too late” category.
I have no problems feeding small dogs, kittens, young cats, young dogs 3-4 meals a day.
Do not fast a puppy. Especially a toy breed.

Fasting is a GOOD thing for grown, healthy dogs in their physical prime, but only if they’re ADULTS and in good shape (physically).
NEVER fast puppies or seniors, and never fast cats longer than 12-14 hours.
We fast ours twice monthly, but only health adults and never babies or seniors. This equals extending every other Sunday’s breakfast from 6:00AM to 9-10AM, and serving dinner a bit early if we can manage.
Again, seniors and babies (large breeds. 9-12 months and toy breeds under 12 months) are exempt from this. Our large adult working dogs do seem to benefit from a fast, but the “fast” includes a lot of water, bone broth and goats milk and recreational bones.

There’s nothing scientific about our method but when it come to feeding schedules and fasting, we err cautiously.
For your adorable Yorkies…..forget fasting for now, feed your puppies like the growing machines they are and enjoy them! If you never fast them, odds are they’ll thrive and be happy. Yorkies are super long lived.
Do the best you can, and enjoy them.

[Susan]

Hi Kerri,
I would stop MILK BONES as they are high in fat.. do not give any treats, use her dry kibble for treats for training….
Which Wellness Formula are you feeding the “Complete Health Puppy” formula that has grains? or the “Wellness Core Puppy”? the Wellness Core Puppy has Lentils, try & avoid Lentils as they can irritate the Bowel… Potato & Sweet Potato normally firm up poos…

[joanne l]

Hi I would try to cut out the milk bones and or try a food with some grains in it. I heard that puppies do better with grains. Holistic Select makes a good line and it is made by wellness also Fromm like the other post said that is good also. But use grain in diet right now.What type of protein are you feeding now?

• This reply was modified 7 years, 3 months ago by joanne l.

[anonymous]

Some of the Wellness formulas are loaded with potato…I would discontinue. Consider Fromm Classic Adult, add a little water and a topper, a bit of crumbled boiled egg, boiled chopped chicken meat or something.

https://www.gofromm.com/fromm-family-classic-adult-dog-food

PS: do a gradual transition, 1/2 and 1/2, new food and old for at least a couple of weeks.
I would eliminate the milk bones and all snacks at least for the time being. Always have fresh water available 24/7.

I bet the pig ears were the culprit, no good. Stay away from processed snacks. Try a frozen raw carrot (when the dog is stable) not baby carrots, they are bleached/chemically treated and a choking hazard due to their size.

[Kerri30 C]

Hello,
I rescued a puppy at 8 weeks old and was told to feed her Wellness puppy food.
I have been doing that and she seemed to be ok. She loves cheese, peanut butter and milk bones dog treats. Pig ears were her usual nightly chewy treat.
I brought her to the vet when diarrhea started about 3 weeks ago,, the fecal test came out negative, they suggested white rice and chicken which seemed to help. No more pig ears either which were her favorite.
When I went back to the Wellness and the usual Milk bone mini dog treats it is coming back. I can’t figure out what it is. Since I do not know what breed she is (possible setter/beagle/? mix) I am at a loss as to whether there is a specific breed related allergy. She is about 32 lbs and nine months old now. Is is possible that the Wellness grain free food isn’t good for her?
Thanks for any advice!

[Spy Car]

Hi Aimee,

I think that it is you who had made the classic mistake. You take the absence of evidence as evidence. That is not a valid approach.

Unfortunately, veterinary studies are almost always funded by pet food companies and they have no interest in proving the superiority of a PMR diet in maintaining healthy teeth vs a commercial diet. So there are no studies.

Many will then attempt to argue that “there are no studies that show…” as if that proves anything (when all it shows are lack of studies).

Meanwhile, there are many thousands of well-networked PMR feeders who raise dogs, see with their own eyes all the advantages (which include, but are not limited to, cleaner teeth) and we take our dogs to veterinarians for examinations and get great reports on oral health.

In contrast, 70-80% of kibble fed dogs have periodontal disease by the time they are three. Three-years-old. And it only gets worse. Feeding kibble diet is a virtual guarantee of developing periodontal disease.

It is not the case with a PMR diet. We don’t see that in our community. A community made up of avid dog trainers and some of the most experienced handlers of elite canine athletes. People who know dogs.

It is not true that dogs with periodontal disease won’t show signs as all one need to do is look at the gums for signs of inflammation and health to have a pretty good clue.

The “studies” you referred to are not relevant.

As to tooth damage or tooth wear, it is certainly possible to cause wear or fractures/breakages by feeding hard weight-bearing bones from large animals. That’s why many PMR feeders (like myself) advocate for eliminating so-called “recreational” bones from the diet.

Soft-edible bones (like chicken bones) virtually eliminate both risks to teeth and impactions issues, but anti-raw activists like to focus on items I personally don’t feed as if that’s the only option.

Of course, the visible portion of the tooth is whiter in PMR fed dogs. It is the same at the gum line and below. My vet confirms this at examination time. No hint of the periodontal disease most kibble fed dogs have at his age.

I’m afraid that the improper use of non-germaine studies and the error of the absence of evidence as evidence has put you on the wrong side of gauging the reality of the dental health of kibble-fed dogs vs PMR fed dogs. You are simply dead wrong on the issue.

Feeding a PMR diet using soft-edible bones (while avoiding risky weight-bearing bones) maximizes canine dental health. The alternative virtually guarantees periodontal disease.

There are few areas in dog rearing, canine nutrition and health where the contrast between the dreadful consequences of kibble-feeding and a PMR diet is starker. Yet you attempt to accuse me of a non-scientific worldview? Please. Spare me.

You are on the wrong side of all the very clear evidence.

Bill

• This reply was modified 7 years, 4 months ago by Spy Car.

[Acroyali]

Avoid professional dental cleanings, feed RMB’s, rec bones when applicable and huge chunks of raw green tripe.

Problem solved.

Save your money on these expensive “plastic” dental chews. Watch a dog eat a greenie or denta stick. They bite of huge chunks and swallow them whole. Hello, intestinal surgery as some here like to blame on raw ;D
Raw vegetables and carrots and such are no better. Dogs chew off huge hunks and swallow them whole. RMB’s are much tougher to gnaw through and are eaten much more slowly. Fed large. A small dog should get a chunk of food much larger than their head. With tripe, it’s boneless and is an excellent food for teeth cleaning meals.

I wouldn’t waste my money on these plastic treats shaped to resemble toothbrushes when most dogs chew through them in 3-4 bites and swallow. How is that doing a damn thing for their teeth?

[Spy Car]

Again, a PMR diet does NOT include vegetables that contain carbohydrates and that negatively impact dental health.

PMR dogs fed soft edible bones are not at risk of tooth breakage and wear.

These are twisted arguments that don’t apply.

Bill

[anonymous]

Why does my dog need dental work if I only feed a raw diet?
“Raw food diets are often based on uncooked meats, bones and vegetables. Some people report that their dog’s teeth appear “cleaner” and have less tartar when fed a raw diet. This is probably because of the increased chewing action which does provide some benefit. However, the incidence of fractured teeth increases in dogs that are eating bones. Periodontal disease can also develop hidden underneath the gum line, even without tartar on the teeth, where it will not be seen until your pet is anesthetized for a full examination and dental cleaning”. excerpt from: https://vetdentistrynm.com/about-us/faq/

[Spy Car]

Aimee, these are apples and oranges comparisons.

There is no quantified measure of what’s called “varying degrees of periodontal disease” in the Foxhounds study and the risks of tooth injury and wear present in the Foxhound study and the Wild African dog (LOL) study is why smart PRM feeders feed their dogs soft edible bone (like chicken bones) that are very gentle on teeth and present a near-zero risk of tooth breakage as opposed to whole animal carcases of animals like antelopes or cattle.

So the point of comparison on tooth damage is a false one. Nothing is worse than cherry-picked science to promote fear-mongering.

Anyone with a brain can see the dramatic differences in dental hygiene and tooth health between a dog eating a PMR diet with 10% soft-edible bone in its diet and those of a kibble fed dog. There is no comparison.

PMR fed dogs are common. There is no need to reach for skulls in museums for African wild dogs to fairly compare a PMR diet with kibble diets in companion dogs.

That said, the African wild dogs had about half the incidence of periodontal disease compared with three-year-old kibble fed dogs (and three is a shockingly young age for a 70-80% incidence rate). One can presume the incidence rate only goes up for kibble fed dogs as their ages advance. How old were the African wild dog skulls in the museums? LOL.

IMO these arguments are a misuse of scientific studies. The benefits of a PMR diet with soft edible bone are as plain as day. As is the atrocious rate of periodontal disease in kibble fed dogs.

No comparison.

Bill

[aimee]

Spycar,

Not a lot of research but so far what has been published hasn’t shown a protective benefit of a “natural” diet. The following is an excerpt from “Impact of Nutrition on Dental issues in companion animals” Chandler 2014

“Proponents of natural foods or of feeding raw bones have claimed this will improve the cleanliness of teeth in pets; further claims are sometimes made that feeding commercial pet food contributes to the high prevalence of periodontal disease in domesticated cats and dogs.
However, a study in foxhounds fed raw carcases, including raw bones, showed they had varying degrees of periodontal disease as well as a high prevalence of tooth fractures (Robinson and Gorrel, 1997).
The skulls of 29 African wild dogs eating a “natural diet”, mostly wild antelope, showed evidence of periodontal disease (41 per cent), teeth wearing (83 per cent) and fractured teeth (48 per cent; Steenkamp and Gorrel, 1999).
A study in small feral cats on Marion Island (South Africa) that had been eating a variety of natural foods (mostly birds) showed periodontal disease in 61 per cent of cats, although only nine per cent had evidence of calculus (Verstraete et al, 1996).
In a study in Australia of feral cats eating a mixed natural diet there was less calculus compared to domestic cats fed dry or canned commercial food, although, again, there was no difference in the prevalence of periodontal disease between the two groups (Clarke and Cameron, 1998)

These studies show a natural diet, or one containing raw bones, does appear to confer some
protection against dental calculus, but not against the more destructive periodontal disease. There is also the risk of fractured teeth”

[Patricia A]

Pitlove my picky one won’t touch actual raw. I’m shopping and cooking for my elderly parents and I need the convenience of the bags of freeze dried . My 16 year old is hungry earlier. My eight year old will eat all day if I let her and my three year old will only pick if she’s not fed early evening. The younger two are the only ones that gets the freeze dried so it’s affordable for me. These are the ingredients in the Turkey/Primal :Turkey, Turkey Necks, Whole Sardines, Turkey Hearts, Turkey Livers, Organic Collard Greens, Organic Squash, Cranberries, Blueberries, Organic Pumpkin Seeds, Organic Celery, Organic Sunflower Seeds, Montmorillonite Clay, Organic Apple Cider Vinegar, Organic Cilantro, Organic Ginger, Organic Coconut Oil, Organic Quinoa Sprout Powder, Alfalfa,Dried Organic Kelp, Vitamin E Supplement, Mixed Tocopherols (natural preservative).
Is Stella’s better with the salmon/Cod recipe? Ground salmon with bones, ground cod with bones, cod liver oil, pumpkin seed, organic cranberries, organic spinach, organic broccoli, organic beets, organic carrots, organic squash, organic blueberries, fenugreek seed, potassium chloride, tocopherols (preservative), sodium phosphate, choline chloride, dried Pediococcus acidilactici fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried Bifidobacterium longum fermentation product, dried Bacillus coagulans fermentation product, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, taurine, calcium carbonate, vitamin E supplement, thiamine mononitrate, copper proteinate, manganese proteinate, sodium selenite, niacin supplement, d-calcium pantothenate, riboflavin supplement, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid.
Appreciate any feedback in a better raw.

[haleycookie]

I second the where’s the bone question.
Also heart is considered a muscle meat when feeding raw. Not an excretory organ like the kidneys. So I would add the heart into the over all ground beef mixture. Not the 5% excretory organs. Your ratios should be 80% muscle meat/fat (including heart), 10% bone (soft pliable bones such as turkey necks, chicken feet), 5% liver, 5% excretory organs (kidneys, lungs).
You could also do this 70% muscle/fat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% excretory, 7% veggies, 3% fruit.

[Spy Car]

@RottieMom, it is notoriously hard on dog’s GI tracts to process large amounts of low quality and low calorie processed foods that are mostly plant-based ingredients and/or carbohydrates.

As a species, the kibble diet is a very unnatural one for dogs. And the capacity to process carbohydrates is unevenly distributed among the dog population.

My very active Vizsla eats meat, organs, and edible bones. Not a huge amount (since the meals are nutrient dense and bioavailable. He has no need to process “fillers” since there are none in his diet. In consequence, his stools are very small and well-formed and look almost like they come from a different species. They look more like wild-animal scat compared to the loose and huge plops of poop left by kibble fed dogs.

Unfortunately, most kibble formulas include a lot of low-nutrient “stuff” that a dog has to pass through its GI tract with little or no benefit and with a lot of downsides. This is very rough on dogs and harder on some than others.

I trust that you will get a lot of contradictory advice on this thread. I’m telling you the benefits I’ve seen feeding dogs as nature intended vs the cereal-based commercial diets that large marketing efforts have convinced too many of us to accept as “normal” when it is in fact not in the interest of our canine companions.

You will have to use your own inner-intelligence to weight the options.

Best.

Bill

[anonymous]

Yeah, I know that.
Raw meaty bones are even more dangerous. Proceed at your own risk.

Make sure you have the nearest emergency veterinary clinic number posted on your fridg.
I speak from experience.

[Molly M]

@Anonymous….

The “bone treats” to which you’re referring
are not the same thing as raw meaty bones.
Bone treats are processed, packaged foods.

[Susan]

Hi,
Yes Victor is suppose to be good quality food for the price, I live Australia we dont get Victor we only get Canidae, Wellness, Eagle Pack, Holistic Select etc …

About the raw diet YES that would be heaps better diet for Sweet Pea better then any dry or wet dog food, but I’d avoid any raw till Sweet Pea digestive tract is strong & healthy & best to feed human raw meat, no Pet Shop raw meats, I like the Dehydrated raw where you add warm water, my boy does really well on an Australian made organic free range raw.. She might prefer the dehydrated dog food, like “Honest Kitchen”, “Kiwi Kitchen” dehydrated & “Canidae” has a new raw coated kibble, I always buy Patches kibbles when on special when there’s 25% off certain dog foods & when the use by date is about to expire & the dog food is 50-75% off, I go to Pet Barn & check out all their use by dates lol then tell staff this use by date is about the expire also I rotate between a few different brands..
This is why a dog has a short digestive tract so if any raw meat they eat is off it passes thru their stomach to small bowel very quickly so no bacterica can breed & best to feed human grade raw meat, Kibble also has contains Salmonella & we hold it so always wash your hands after touching a dry kibble….
My cat had tartar on his teeth & my vet recommend I give him raw chicken wings cut in 1/2 x 3 times a week & the raw meaty chicken bones cleaned his teeth, cause he was old his vet didn’t want to risk putting him to sleep to clean his teeth, plus it was very expensive over $450 then another $50 per teeth if removed…

Yes very good idea before you see a vet GET Dog insurance, that’s 1 big mistake I made & I’ve spent alot of money on Patch with all his health problems.

[Celt S]

He’s has a clean bill of health. There seems to be no reason for him thinning. My boy hasn’t lost weight, he’s just obviously thinner looking. He’s gone from a couple vertebrate, last 2 ribs and tips of his hipbones being visible to almost all of his ribs, the knobs of his hipbones, and 5 vertebrates being visible, but he’s still 10.2 pounds. I’m a bit focused on my pets, so believe me, I “know” quite a bit about the breed. My girl looks like the model for a healthy dog, but is a bit on the heavy side, my other boy is a good weight for their breed. I’ve had to explain, some “discrepancies” on blood work to the vet. Sighthounds are weird.

[Spy Car]

Rosemarie, the raw mackerel bones are very soft and really aren’t an issue. I feed mackerel frequently, and I’m very risk-averse when it comes to bones.

If you want to maximize “the chewing” of raw mackerel my suggestion is to serve the mackerel (or mackerel cross sections) frozen.

If you feel uncomfortable serving bone-in mackerel, they are not difficult to fillet.

Problems with BARF include:

1) Feeding too much bone. Bone at 20% does not meet the universally recognized need to have a 1.2 : 1 Calcium to Phosphorus ratio.

2) Grinding meats and bones unnecessarily.

3) Too many “recreational bones” that pose risks to teeth and obstructions.

4) The inclusion of non-essential carbohydrates in the form of fruits and vegetables Dogs have higher vitality when they are fueled primarily by energy from fat (with protein secondary). Carbohydrate metabolism interrupts fat metabolism and is a negative for canine health.

Also, understand that some raw fish contains an enzyme called “thiaminase” that disrupts a dog’s ability to use thiamine. IMS Pacific mackerel has “thiaminase” while Atlantic mackerel does not.

The smart way to feed raw fish IMO is to do it is a spaced out fashion (as “thiaminase” is said to dissipate quickly) as opposed to feeding daily. Daily feeding of thiaminase-rich fish can cause serious problems.

Best,

Bill

[Rosemarie A]

Thanks Pitlove! Maybe I’ll try that. I tried deboning it raw and boy was that a nightmare. There were so many bones and I gave up.

Bill. Thanks for the advice. They get rmbs with barf. From what I recall the major difference with barf vs prey is the ratio of muscle meat due to the addition of veg/fruit (10%). Besides 10% more muscle meat (and no vegetables) – liver, offal and bone percentages are the same with prey and barf. Chewing and tearing action essentially remains the same. I’m far more comfortable with giving them a large leg quarter before fish because of all those small sharp bones. I really want to just give them a whole fish but it really makes me nervous.

[Rosemarie A]

Hello!

This is my first post. I’ve been lingering for a while and trying to absorb as much information as I can with raw feeding. I’ve started about a month and a half ago. I’ve been prepping using the BARF model. I want to introduce raw whole fish to their diet. I have mackerel that has been frozen for almost 2 weeks. I am very hesitant in feeding my 4 dogs mackerel with all that bone. Any opinions or thoughts with using a meat grinder to decrease the chances of getting bone lodged into their systems? I’ve read that mackerel is a bit of a tough bone. They’ve had canned sardines but I wanted to try a non-canned fish. Should I cook it and take the bones out? Anyone have any experience with using their meat grinder for fish? Thanks for any advice.

[Spy Car]

Hello Jan,

I strongly believe that raw feeding is the healthiest diet for dogs, but it is not a panacea.

The greatest benefit would be to reduce the weight of your lab. Reducing (or eliminating) carbohydrates via a raw diet (or mixed diet) helps. Dogs burn fat very efficiently and while it seems counter-intuitive, fat metabolism helps with weight loss.

The pork femur bones, sadly, are a poor choice, as a bone source. They are too hard to the “eaten” and therefore pose a hazard to teeth and risk obstructions id swallowed in large pieces. Bone-in chicken pieces are far preferable.

On a budget, you’d spend less if you find whole ingredients and feed according to the Prey Model 80/10/10 (meat/soft-edible bones/organs) formula.

Chicken feet are a good source of edible bone and do contain a lot of glucosamine. Couldn’t hurt. But weight loss is the critical issue.

Aim to slowly reduce weight. A raw diet promotes a lean body type. Getting rid of the carbs is key.

Best,

Bill

[Spy Car]

[Content in violation of our commenting policy has been removed by the moderator]

Back to your problems. There are a number of improvements you could (should) make.

More towards an 80/10/10 ratio (meat/organs/bone). Try to make as much of the meat portion “whole” meat rather than grinds. Beef heart and pork leg (or shoulder) tend to be procurable cheap cuts.

Fat is to be embraced as a great source of energy (the ultimate source of energy for dogs). Because a canine digestive system needs to re-adapt to fat metabolism after a dog eats a carbohydrate-rich diet, it is wise to limit fat initially (during the transition). And to then work up to full-fat meals. Fat is very beneficial for dogs and not something to avoid or to restrict, except during a “transition.”

“Lean” meat is not a positive in the long term. Dogs thrive on fat metabolism. Fat is essential.

Don’t grind the meat. Let the dog chew and tear whole pieces. Much better for dental health.

The number of organs in your typical meal is too high. Stick with 5% (of the total) as liver and 5% “other” secreting organs (such as kidney, melts/spleen, sweetbreads, etc). Together that’s 10% organs as the total.

The biggest problem is with the bone. Forget giving beef or turkey bones and instead turn to bone-in chicken or similar soft edible bone. You want bone sources that will be well chewed and digested and that minimize the risk of tooth damage and/or obstructions.

Beef bones and turkey bones are poor choices.

Eating soft edible bone will keep stools ideally firm. There is no reason to feed pumpkin if the edible bone content is kept in the proper target range. Chewing soft-edible bone will also keep teeth sparkling white. Do not grind the bone. Feed soft-edible bone that the dog can chew.

The USDA website has bone percentages for common chicken pieces that can help you when figuring the 80/10/10 ratios.

Good luck.

Bill

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Mike Sagman. Reason: Text removed by moderator

[Jesus M]

25% ground turkey, 5% beef liver, 20% beef heart, 5% peas, 5% carrots, 5% yogurt, 10% pumpkin, 5% sweet potato, and usually 15% egg in the morning, and in the evening I substitude the egg for turkey and heart. Plus I mix in BullyMax supplements. Half a pill in the morning and half a pill in the evening. Along with their hip and joint level 3 powder.

Whatchu you guys think of my recipe? My Boston Terrier seems to love it. She weighs almost 16lbs and she is about 8months old.

What can I change. What can I add? I recently started buying rib bones and beef gullet to give to her on the side (I feel like of her bowl is full enough, that bones might distract her to much but im open to suggestions on what type of bone to add).

Also, when she stands, she legit has the body of a Bully type dog. Her hind legs are swoll AF.

I also wanna add, that her coat is shiny and smooth. She has plenty of energy, and her breath doesnt really stink plus she shows no signs of any abnormalities. Ive been having her on this diet for about a month now.

[Anne D]

Hi there! I’ve been through the same thing. I’ve been feeding raw for over 2yrs now & my 3 would never allow me to buy kibble again! HAHAHA
Nor would I want to, since it was the best decision I’ve made for their health.
I agree with the previous poster about the fat content. Small amounts are ok, but watch leaving the skin on since they really can’t chew it up. It’s basically a glob in the belly, which can cause upset.
Don’t worry about the bones, as long as you’re not cooking them, you’re doing everything right. Their digestive tract is set up for this.
The only thing I didn’t see suggested for you was canned pumpkin. I always keep that in. Just in case. Dogs get upset stomachs. Just like us. The pumpkin helps to bind them up. I also add slippery elm bark to the pumpkin. Clears them up really quick. Just make sure that you’re buying canned pumpkin, not pie filling.
I know you’re aware of transitioning proteins, just be sure not to keep them on 1 protein too long. Always rotate. Green Tripe is an excellent way to soothe his belly too. It just might make you incredibly nauseous! HAHAHA Bone broth is great too & if you don’t want to make it, honest kitchen sells a powdered version w turmeric. Nice to keep on hand.
So sorry I’m rambling on. I just hate when our best friends aren’t well & feeling at a loss as to what to do for them. I would post the same question in every raw feeding FB group I was in & was lucky to get a response the next day.
I hope your puppy is feeling better.

[anonymous]

It is irresponsible for anyone other than a veterinarian that has examined your dog to give you veterinary advice.

Don’t waste time on the internet.

Please go to the nearest veterinarian asap, raw food (especially bones) is well known for causing gastrointestinal upset and bowel/colon obstructions.
An x-ray is the only way to rule out.

Sorry that you had to find out this way, best of luck.
Give us an update.

[Acroyali]

@ Emily C, it’s great you’re feeding your dogs a LID home prepared but make sure they receive calcium in some form (bones, seaweed calcium, eggshells, etc.)!
I did not see you mention this as a supplement, hence my comment.

[Jan I]

My 8yr. old 140lb. Lab mix has recently started suffering from hip dysplasia. I am really reluctant to the idea of surgery. I started him on glucosamine Chews and switched his dog food from Purina Pro to Nitro dog food. Then I read about chicken feet and started feeding him those for his afternoon treat. That got me interested in the raw food diet and I found My Pet Carnivore web sight. I ordered a case of ground Green Beef Tripe with Trachea & Gullet and an order of pork femur bones. I am a widow on a strict budget and plan on feeding raw and kibble. I learned not to feed both at same time. Haven’t received my order yet but interested in feedback and suggestions. Also wondering if anyone feeding raw diet can tell me if this will give him any relief with his problem. Digger means the world to me. He’s been my greatest comfort through my husbands illness and recent death. I never sought his comfort he just gives. The only time this lug of a dog gives me problems is when I try and push a pill down his throat or hide it in food….he knows and refuses. He has been walked pretty much consistently since I got him.

[Tracy P]

I have an 8 yr old who 2 months ago was diagnosed with diabetes . I went with the vets advice of lowering her calorie intake to 950-1000 . She was 70 lbs when I changed her food, and she is skin and bones now. In the last 2 weeks we have noticed a mass growing on her leg as well . I have called the vet and am waiting for a call back . Could the lowering of calories as much as we did cause this ? Her sugar is checked by me 2 times a day, and if need be insulin is given . It ranges from low 95 to high of 350 some days . She gets insulin if sugar is above 120 . The food I give her is Beneful weight management . She doesn’t constantly drink water like she did when we found out about the diabetes either. She eats all her food within 2 minutes. She gets 2 cups at 6 am and 2 cups at 6 pm .

[Robert B]

Well Timber is now 2 years and 7 months old and still is on Science Diet HD. I can’t even give him treats. I use his food as treats and give him nylon chew bones. I tried forty flora from my Vet and others as well, but no joy. I also tried pumpkin and also 1/2 of a banana, but that is way too high in sugar. Occasionally if give him a mini carrot or two and he seem to due well.
His appetite is ravenous. He get’s 2 cups in the morning and 3 cups at dinner (no table food) and it’s gone in minutes. I purchased one of the maze bowels to slow him down a bit. He remains a constant weight at 50 lbs and seems health. I guess he will be on SD HD for the rest of his life.
Does anyone know if Science Diet makes HD bones for him to chew on?
So now he gets up around 2-3AM for an additional bowl movement…. ugh…. must be all of that fiber. He loves to play ball and go for walks, especially in the park. This keep both of us fit.
Thanks to all for your suggestions, they are appreciated.

[Susan]

Hi Jaskirat,
Go to pet shop & buy a Large Breed Puppy dry kibble, this way your puppy will get all the nutritents he/she needs for growing & bones while she/he’s a pup..
google “Diet for Large Breed Puppy”

* “Royal Canine” wrote-
The growth rate of a puppy is influenced by the nutrient density of the food and the amount of food fed. Regardless of whether puppies grow slow or fast, they will still reach a similar adult weight. It is critical that puppies are fed for optimal growth and bone development, rather than maximal growth to avoid skeletal abnormalities.

Three dietary components have been implicated as factors that increase the incidence of skeletal disease in large and giant breed puppies; protein, calcium and energy.

* “Hills” Wrote-
Large and giant breed dogs — Great Danes, German shepherds, Labrador retrievers and the like — have different nutritional needs than smaller breeds. All puppies are born with their bones still developing, but large breed puppies are more susceptible to developmental bone and joint disease during their rapid growth phase to 1 year of age. In fact, large breeds reach 50 percent of their body weight at around 5 months of age. Smaller breeds reach 50 percent of their body weight at around 4 months of age.
The growth rates of all puppies are dependent on the food that they eat. Puppies should be fed to grow at an average, rather than a maximum, growth rate. Compared to smaller-sized puppies, large breed puppies need restricted levels of fat and calcium to moderate their rate of growth. They’ll still reach their full-grown size, just over a longer period of time, which will result in healthy development of bones and joints for these breeds.
Two key nutrients that should be decreased for large breed puppies are fat (and total calories) and calcium:
*Fat: High fat/calorie intake causes rapid weight gain, and bones/muscles aren’t developed enough to support the excessive body weight. Controlling the fat level and total calories in the food for these puppies may help reduce the risk of developmental bone and joint problems.
*Calcium: Excessive calcium intake increases the likelihood of skeletal problems. It is also recommended that calcium supplements not be fed with any commercial pet food for growth.

Kibbles to look at
“Eagle Pack” Large breed puppy dry formula for puppy
“Eagle Pack” Large Breed Adult dry formula for your adult dog
“Canidae” Large Breed, All Life Stages Turkey & Brown Rice formula can be feed to both your dogs.
“Wellness Core Large Breed Puppy…
“Wellness Core” Large Breed Adult..
“4Health” Grain Free Large Breed Puppy.
“4Health” Grain Free Large Breed Adult. Sold at Tractor Supply shop & is cheaper..

If you’re on facebook join a Canine Raw Feeding group..
“The Australian Raw Feeding Community” f/b group, is really good & help starters.
Also look at buying & adding tin sardines in spring water or Olive Oil to diet as Sardines have Vitamins, Minerals, Omega fatty oils, Calcium etc add 2 spoons sardines a day to 1 of their meals to help balance their raw diet…

*Nutrition Facts
Sardine, Atlantic, canned in oil
Amount Per 100 grams

Calories 208

Total Fat 11 g-16%
Saturated fat 1.5 g-7%
Polyunsaturated fat 5 g
Monounsaturated fat 3.9 g
Cholesterol 142 mg-47%
Sodium 505 mg-21%
Potassium 397 mg-11%
Total Carbohydrate 0 g-0%
Dietary fiber 0 g-0%
Sugar 0 g
Protein 25 g-50%
Vitamin A-2%
Vitamin C-0%
Calcium-38%
Iron-16%
Vitamin D-48%
Vitamin B-6-10%
Vitamin B-12-148%
Magnesium-9%

Just make sure you check the salt % & get the lowest salt% can of Sardines in spring water or olive Oil cans.

[Tiffany T]

I am not upset that Anon is providing the information. Anon seems well educated on the subject and I’m not going to minimize the situation they went through.

However, I do disagree about bones cleaning teeth being a myth. I saw a substantial difference in both of my dog’s teeth. But I also agree that it might not work for all dogs, especially if they have a tendency to gulp. My dogs are chewers, so that’s why it probably helped them.

My final decision has already been made for the time being. We will be feeding Taste of the Wild high Sierra with added goodies (like yogurt, fruits, veggies, chicken, and raw beef, if Ari can handle small amounts). But we will also be foregoing bully sticks and other chew treats for RMB’s mainly on the weekends (turkey necks, duck necks, and other raw treats that tend to have “softer” bones which Ari has proven to be able to digest). And on their birthdays, we’ll splurge and get some lamb. I’ve also thought about adding some freeze dried food in the mix. Everything in moderation 👍

[anonymous]

Regarding bones, if anyone reading this thread is interested, per the search engine:

/forums/topic/dental-health-how-to-brush-your-pets-teeth/#post-110317

I hope someone finds the info helpful 🙂

[Susan]

Hi Tiffany,
I think you’re doing a pretty good job, you’ve had a little set back with Aria, if Aria didn’t catch the rabbit Aria would probably be doing really well now, just start all over again..
You may of panic a little bit but after reading all the bad stuff on the net who wouldn’t panic, I would of paniced aswell actually years ago when Patch was pooing blood diarrhea I paniced & rushed him & took some of his bloody poo to the vets & waited out the front till they opened up at 8am, the vet nurses & vet were so calm & I was a mess, stressing out, I had no sleep, I’ve never owned a dog that pooed just blood all night…. he blood wasn’t from a raw diet, afterward I went thru a animal Nutritionist to put him on a raw diet.
But you learn from these things & if there’s a next time you’ll do things different….
Patch has IBD his vet gives me repeat scripts of “Metronidazole” that I keep in the cupboard & when something happens like Aria vomiting undigested smelly brown vomit or blood vomit or bloody poos & I see Patch isnt getting better after 2 days then I start him on the Metronidazole for 7-14 days..
When Aria spewed the brown stuff it would have been digested food in its liquid form, then she couldn’t poo cause she probably didnt have nothing much to poo out after being fasted for 24 hrs then she spewed a meal, her bowel would have been emtpy & she was unwell with Gastritis she probably felt like she had to poo but didnt have to poo..
What did she eat the day she spewed the digested food??
Just keep an eye on Aria being a GSD she may have a sensitive stomach/bowel then her brother Ronan has….She might be more sensitive to certain ingredients?
I just re read your post maybe don’t feed Aria any beef if she gets bad gas after eating beef. also beef livers are more rich, I’d start a Elimination diet with Aria, I’d feed Ronan the same raw diet as you were feeding before the Rabbit incident & with Aria I’d start feeing just 1 meat probably Chicken, Turkey & Duck & feed from the same animal so the same organ meat & same muscle meat, so feed from the same chicken or Turkey or Duck if you can, you’ll have to buy the whole chicken or whole Turkey try & find a chicken, duck & turkey farms close by, best to feed free range raw, but its more expensive.
also maybe when she spewed she ate too much fat??
My vet tells me, sometimes its good when a dogs spews, its not always a bad Susan lol the Gastro vet said its very easy for a dog to bring things back up, they’re not like us when we vomit, it just stresses me out a bit, I stress when Patch spews, well I dont stress as much now after the Gastro vet has explained it all to me & told me not to worry, its better out then in, also dogs have a short digestive tract & can easily vomit when they have too,
Chicken, turkey & pork these meat are suppose to be easier to digest & the bone is supoose to be softest from the Chicken but the pork has more fat but you can control the fat amount you feed if your making your own raw diet also home made raw is HEAPS better then the Pre made raw you buy already made, when I bought Turkey BARF pre-made for my cat she wouldn’t touch it, then I took the Turkey back & they gave me samples of the Rabbit & Kangaroo Barf & they all smelt the same as the Turkey BARF, you’d think being different meats they would all smell different, well they should of all smelt different, the cat wouldn’t touch any of them, then I went to supermarket & bought fresh human grade chicken & kangaroo mince & it smelt like fresh meat should smell, totally different to the pre-made pet BARF raw formula’s, So your better off making your own raw meals, it probably heaps fresher.. find a butcher that sells cheaper off cuts..

Just make sure when they’re both eating raw meaty bones, you watch them & make sure they’re both crunching & munching their raw meaty bones & if you see a certain cut of meaty bone that they’re not really chewing properly & just swollowing, then don’t use that cut of meaty bone again… Invest in a meat cleaver & a good chopping block & go nuts & start hacking at all the meaty bones lol…
If you join a few facebook groups you might find someone thats selling or giving away their smaller grinder/mincer they might have bought a bigger grinder/mincer?
Dont worry about them eating bones, dogs teeth are made specially for eating raw meaty bones, animals etc, a really good Raw Canine group is called “The Australian raw feeding Community” f/b group…

Canine Dental Anatomy

Incisors — Dog
There are four types of teeth in small animals: incisor, canine, premolar, and molar. Nature designed each to serve a special function. Incisors are named first, second and third; or central, intermediate, and lateral, based on their location in the mouth. There should be six incisors in the maxilla (upper jaw) and six in the mandible (lower jaw). Incisor teeth are used for shearing and grooming.

Normally, the
lower canine
should intersect
the upper lateral
incisor and upper
canine
There are two large canine teeth located in the mandible and two in the maxilla. The canines are designed to grasp and tear with great pressure. Premolar teeth have sharp edges used for shearing. In the dog, there are four premolar teeth on either side of the upper and lower jaws. Dogs have four molars in the upper jaw and six in the lower. Molars have a flat surface used for grinding.
So you dont need a grinder your dogs teeth are one lol

[anonymous]

Bowel obstruction, shows up as calcified sludge on the x-ray, on 2 occasions.

Symptoms: constipation, straining, PAIN, in example: panting, crying, unable to relax, agitation. Dog would scream if you touched her abdominal area.
Chalky feces, bloody feces, diarrhea, gastrointestinal upset.
Comes on gradually.

Broken tooth, times 2, not a clean break, required extractions under general anesthesia, both times “Raw Meaty Bones” No thanks!

[Susan]

Hi Brianne,
My boy has IBD, he gets bad acid reflux & gets Pancreas/stomach pain lifts his right paw up whinges & wants me to rub around his stomach & Pancreas area, we have done the blood test & Ultra scan for Pancreatitis & everything comes back OK his Gastro vet says its his IBD, its his stomach….
If your dog isnt really interested in his Blue Bufflo kibble change it & find a kibble or low fat wet can or Freeze Dried raw kibble to feed him, I have found I need to rotate between a few foods that agree with him, they must be low/medium fat around 10%min to 14% max in fat, Protein over 25% & Carbs under 30% & fiber under 4%..
A dogs digestive tract is short & ment to digest a raw meaty diet not these processed dry kibbles, this is why I think so many dogs are having stomach & bowel problems……

My boy loves the Hills I/d Chicken & Vegetable Stew wet can food & the Royal Canine Intestinal Low Fat wet can food I just get a paper towel & pat down & dry all the oil from the Royal Canin low fat wet food, Why I buy teh Vet Diet Wet can foods cause the fat is low where pet shop went can foods are higher in fat…
Patch gets his acid when a food has fish/salmon oils, he does well on Canola & sunflower oils…
Have you tried an ant acid reducer like Pepcid or Zantac ? you give 30mins before 2 of his main meals a day, my boy is on an ant acid blocker now he started off on Omeprazole (Prilosec) took it for 2 yrs then around December last year I moved & Patch went down hill really bad, I asked his vet can he do another Endoscope + Biopsies you must ask for the Biopsies so the vet knows what is really happening in stomach, my Patches Sphincter flap isn’t closing & the acid is coming up his esophagus into his mouth & went back down into his wind pipe this probably why he became so unwell the beginning of the year, I nilly put him to sleep he just gave up it was awful to watch, also his Helicobacter-Pylori were come back & he had Gastritis stomach…so he was put on 21 day triple therapy meds Metronidazole Amoxcillin & Prilosec given every 12 hours with a full meal, then after the 21 days I continued giving just 1 x 20 Prilosec tablet of a morning for his acid reflux & to keep his Helicotor away, it lives in their stomach walks & loves sugary carbs (kibble)
In the end I had to stop any wet foods cause they kept coming up into hois mouth causing bad acid reflux, I found Wellness Core Large Breed dry kibble & he’s doing really well now, he’s acting like a puppy, he isnt a large breed dog he’s an English Staffordshire Terrier, the Wellness Core Large Breed formula is low/med Fat-13%, Protein-35%, Carbs-31% low in Kcals per cup -345Kcals per cup & is high in Omega 3 & has Glusomine & Chondroitin helping his joints & bones he’s 9ys old & it has no chickpeas or lentils…

I’d change his diet, if you can cook 1-2 of his meals a lean white meat with boiled sweet potatoes, sweet potato freezes really well & feed his other 2 meals the Wellness Core large Breed formula, try & feed 3-4 smaller meals a day, I feed him at 7am, 9am-1/2 cup kibble both times 12pm-wet can food or cooked food or his freeze dried raw food & 5pm -1/2 cup kibble & 8pm-1/3 kibble, & try an ant acid reducer first either the Pepcid (Famotidine) or Zantac (Ranitidine) 30 mins before 2 of his main meals, if they dont really help him then ask vet about trying Omeprazole (Prilosec) 20mg best given first thing of the morning just wait about 20mins then feed him but you dont really dont have to wait before feeding him as Prilosec is a Protein Pump Inhibitor (PPI) sends a msg to the brain not to make as much Hydrochloric acid in the stomach, where the Zantac & Pepcid works differently & I found didnt really help Patch… You will see results within 2-3 days after using the Omeprazole..
Sometimes I also give Patch either 5ml liquid Mylanta or 1/2 a Quick-eze chew when he has vomited up acid these line his throat & eosphagus & make him feel better…

[Vicky F]

My little dog Jack was suffering with severe belly bloat filled with fluid. Had to have it drained 3 times. Took him to an Internal Medical doctor who put him on a Lasix diuretic called Furosemide. Highly recommend for the fluid in the belly. It was a miracle, his belly bloat is gone but is now skin and bones. Doctor said to get weight on him asap before organ failure. I’ve been giving him boiled chicken mixed with white rice and mixed vegetables and kibble offered all day. He seems to be getting tired of both and I’m looking for ideas to fatten him up quick.

[Sloane K]

To add to the conversation-
If you go back and analyze what pets were eating back then they did not have access to commercial foods (mainly grains) that they do now. And I don’t believe pets have adapted quickly enough to be able to ingest the commercial kibble sold in stores (loaded with fillers and grains, aka carbs). Pets have always eaten meats, both fatty and lean, as well as bones.

[Sloane K]

Would raw coated kibble still be considered appropriate for a strict BARF (Bones & Raw Food) diet? It is an interesting concept and I believe my pup would make an easier transition from kibble to raw coated kibble.

Thanks for the advice in advance.

[Wendy M]

That may be too much too soon for a little guy. The liver should come later. It’s very rich. Start with chicken, thigh or breast meat. Don’t grind it, make her work for it by chewing. Maybe a wing (REMEMBER CHICKEN BONES ARE FINE IF NOT COOKED). We’ve been feeding leg quarters on a regular basis for years. I used the RAW FEEDING website, & RAWCHAT.

[Ellies Parents]

My puppy and my senior dog eat a food with dicalcium phosphate. I’m studying towards a degree in animal nutrition (stopped trusting my vet … but that’s another story, hah), and what I’ve found is that dicalcium phosphate is safe.

Calcium and phosphate helps growing puppies (and older dogs with weakening bones develop stronger bones. It’s like calcium for humans. Phosphorus (in dicalcium phosphate) helps form bones and teeth, and it works with protein synthesis for tissue repair. Aka it’s great for pups with injuries.

Through that I know that dicalcium phosphate is safe. I have no experience about tricalcium phosphate though. I’ll ask at my next vet/animal nutrition course. That’s a good question. With my basic chemistry knowledge, it seems like it’s just a different isomer/combination for dicalcium phosphate but I’m really not sure.