HELP! Raw diet confusion!

Dog Food Advisor Forums Raw Dog Food HELP! Raw diet confusion!

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  • #101219 Report Abuse

    shandi h
    Member

    So I have been looking into this raw diet stuff for about a week now. I watched “Pet Fooled” on netflix and I will admit it really woke me up to what is going on with pet food. Recently I lost my service dog that was an american bull dog. I lost her to Osteosarcoma. It was the hardest day of my life. It’s been a while and I am still not healed from that but we have decided to get a new dog. We have found a wonderful newfoundland pup who is coming to our home Thursday!!! I have been trying to do this research on my own but I’ll admit it’s so over whelming I can’t handle it! We have another dog but let me say this other dog is part goat, she has to be because she can eat ANYTHING. This new dog however I want to make sure is started off right while I correct the other dog’s diet to what is right!

    So, I can’t understand the raw diet. There are no set ideas. No blueprints to go through. Is there a dehydrated diet I could use? That tends to be a bit cheaper for now. ALso, the vet said canned isn’t as bad should I try that? Also, I’m still going to give him the yogurt, eggs, liver, chicken broth and supplements. That’s easy for me but its everythign else that is confusing. HELP. He will be 10 weeks old on Thursday and around 28 pounds. How do I start this? Is there a site that has a set menu or grocery shopping list I can go by? I’m so very new to this. I don’t understand all the terminology yet. I want to do this right. Please help! He will be on NuVet as well as Mega C plus. I need to know exact portions like 1 cup of this, 2 tbs of this, 2 eggs, 1 tsp of coconut oil… yadda yadda. I can follow those!

    #101220 Report Abuse

    anon101
    Member

    Hope this helps http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?s=raw
    And http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?s=nuvet
    And http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?s=coconut
    http://skeptvet.com/Blog/category/nutrition/
    And
    https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/choosing-the-right-diet-for-your-pet/
    I would listen to your vet.
    I lost a dog to cancer too, genetics have a lot to do with it.
    Zignature is a quality dog food (imo)

    #101221 Report Abuse

    shandi h
    Member

    these sites just seem to down raw diet and say it’s no different or better than commercial foods. One even said “by products” aren’t that big of a deal. lol so thanks for the info but I’ve made my decision to stray away from kibble for the most part as I do believe it is unhealthy for the pups. I may not be able to afford straight out feeding him whole chickens but I can try to do canned or dehydrated and fresh veggies for him. 🙂

    #101222 Report Abuse

    anon101
    Member

    Well, homeopathic views differ greatly from science based medicine. So, don’t expect your veterinarian to support your decisions. Most will tell you that they don’t think raw food is worth the risk of gastrointestinal obstructions and broken teeth (bones)
    You can use the search engine here to find more information. Good luck.

    #101223 Report Abuse

    anon101
    Member

    Ps: “Pet Fooled” is propaganda from the raw feeding community and the homeopathic vets.
    I only watched the trailer and had no interest in viewing the documentary.

    #101304 Report Abuse

    pitlove
    Member

    Hi Shandi-

    If you are going to be a raw feeder, you can’t be opposed to by-products. Organ meats are by-products and are a key point of a raw diet.

    I would recommend paying for a consultation on BalanceIt.com with one of their veterinary nutritionists since you have not only a puppy, but a large/giant breed puppy coming. I have seen a lot of raw fed large breed puppies with nutrient defeciences because the owners decided to “wing it” and not consult a nutritionist during the critical growth period of the dog. Large breed puppies have extremely strict dietary requirements to help reduce their risk of orthopedic problems during growth and later in life. Think hip dysplasia. If you want to do raw, do it right. Your pup will thank you.

    #101499 Report Abuse

    Susan
    Member

    Hi Shandi, your on the right track but on the wrong site, most people on DFA feed kibble… In Australia most people feed raw diet or raw + premium kibble/freeze dried….
    google ” Maggie the oldest dog in the World” watch Rodney Habib’s video interviewing Maggie’s owner & what he feed Maggie for 30yrs, he didn’t over vaccinate, or desex her till she was 14yrs old, she worked & lived on a family run Dairy Farm…excellent video..
    Go on Face Book follow people like
    “Rodney Habib” Planet Paws
    “Peter Dobias” Natural Healing for Dogs,
    “Dr Karen Becker”

    Good Books to get & read..
    Dr Ian Billinghurst “Give Your Dog A Bone” is an excellent book to read…
    Steve Brown – “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet”
    Dr Karen Becker- “Real Food for Healthy Dogs & Cats, Simple homemade food.

    also join F/B groups that are Raw feeding groups like “Raw & Holistic Cat & Dog Support Group” you’ll get heaps of help from this group, a lot of experienced & professional raw feeders in this group.. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1411906099101822/

    #101510 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi Shandi,

    As you are new to making a homemade diet my recommendation would be to wait until adulthood to introduce a homemade diet. Use a commercial food during the critical growth period. One that is complete, balanced and has been through growth trials for a large breed dog. Growth is a demanding stage and mistakes in nutrient balance can have life long consequences.

    The one pup I know raised on homemade raw, by an owner that had been feeding raw for years to her adults, ended up with poor growth, anemia and needed orthopedic surgery to correct the bone growth problems.

    This life stage, growth, is unforgiving. It isn’t the lifestage for you to “cut your teeth” on in regards to raw feeding.

    aimee

    P.S. Petfooled doesn’t in any way reflect what is happening is the pet food industry. It contained a lot of misinformation. Heck, the producers even went so far as to mislabel the anatomy and taxonomy of the dog in order to fool the person watching it. It is easy to be fooled by PetFooled. They were very good at accomplishing the what they set out to do.. Fool the pet parent hence the title.

    #101759 Report Abuse

    Suzanne B
    Member

    Our vet office has 10 vets and all adamantly oppose raw diets. I trust them. We made the choice to go with Taste of the Wild food for our dogs. There are a lot of excellent commercial brands available, though some take a little searching. My dogs are healthy and their digestion is good.

    #101871 Report Abuse

    Spy Car
    Member

    Unfortunately, this forum is trolled by anti-raw zealots who repeatedly post the same tired links.

    Those interested in a raw diet would do well to seek out Prey Model Raw (PMR) resources.

    Fruits, vegetables, and other carbohydrates are not essential to a canine diet, and in fact are negative ingredients.

    A PP was correct about by-products being useful in a raw diet. There is, however, a world of difference between feeding fresh and wholesome by-products and the sort of contaminated/condemned items that can legally be swept off slaughterhouse floors to be included in pet food, so long as these items are first sent to a rendering plant.

    #104996 Report Abuse

    poodaddy
    Member

    Susan, thanks for your post – really good information for my needs. To All, this is sooooo refreshing to see a site that allows honest fact-based dialog in a forum. If this is the result of Dr Sagman setting up the “system” for open dialog, he should receive big thank yous.

    #105159 Report Abuse

    poodaddy
    Member

    I would like to offer some personal insight into this but in no way intend to suggest that any comments above are “wrong”; I just want to provide a view into the prism of how a licensed professional may look at advising consumers. As a preamble, if a selected food works for the dog, and if that dog is in good health, i.e. not suffering from symptoms of improper diet such as excessive anal gland secretion, inconsistent stools, on-set of periodontal issues, skin issues, weight control variations, lethargy, where symptoms are not backed by medical testing, etc, then great.

    But, …. as a licensed professional in a different industry, I can tell you the reason why any licensed professional will not advocate to a consumer for doing something that requires a certain threshold level of knowledge to implement it. It is one of professional LIABILITY. I become more and more convinced every day the reason veterinarians recommend a scientifically-balanced commercially manufactured diet is the liability for the vet to suggest anything else is unlimited – period. For example, I would not “recommend a person go build their own wing on a house” or “recommend a person change their food intake to a personal menu” but I would recommend a set of plans designed/sealed by others and or hiring a licensed individual to do the design work and I would recommend an industry professional be consulted before recommending something as vague as “raw diets are good so go do it”. That would invite a level of criticism that licensed professionals are not insured against.

    Raw diet is primarily a matter of nutrition science and design; if I were a vet, my initial position would advise a non-professional against a raw diet as a matter of practice. We peeled this back on the pet food manufacturing side with the consultants or nutrition experts internal the manufacturers (which is where the liability is for commercial dog food) and found that our Vet “switched” to become supportive of a raw food diet when our nutrition data was presented and was customized to our dogs and when when combined with a Vet’s prescriptions to treat ailments that now are gone and there is scientific data to back it. It should not surprise anyone reading this post, that our Vet could not say “stop doing that when problems vanished.” The vet knew we had crossed over a threshold and were not coming back. This may surprise you but I would never recommend to anyone to just go do a raw food diet after what I have learned, unless, (1) using another professional’s complete diet with the data to back it up and or (2) doing it yourself … which is a huge commitment to an entirely new level of commitment to control the input data, measure the output data to know with certainty (=/- say ~3%) of what the data is showing.

    I hope this provides a more full picture of the why a vet would not “openly advocate to consumers” to go do something that would most likely be FAR worse than buying commercially prepared and manufacturer-backed balanced dog food.

    #114631 Report Abuse

    Sloane K
    Member

    To add to the conversation-
    If you go back and analyze what pets were eating back then they did not have access to commercial foods (mainly grains) that they do now. And I don’t believe pets have adapted quickly enough to be able to ingest the commercial kibble sold in stores (loaded with fillers and grains, aka carbs). Pets have always eaten meats, both fatty and lean, as well as bones.

    #115208 Report Abuse

    Zeke S
    Member

    I’ve had 2 Newfies in my life. Big breeds are prone to joint issues (as you probably know!). I fed them dry food for their first 2 or so years before switching to chicken; the first 2 ingredients in the dry food were both chicken (deboned and ground). Both lived into their early teens…not that I can attribute that to feeding dry food for the first couple of years, but I do believe that was a factor.

    #122674 Report Abuse

    LINDA F
    Member

    Hi! Okay, here is my story and do not take this as informed or a professional opinion. I have kept 3 dogs in my home for most of my adult life and I am now 75! All dogs are seen by my vet several times a year including a full “WELLNESS” check up once a year. I currently have a 12 year old rescued pit bill that is so sweet and a joy to have around. On her last check up, her liver values were very high. So my trusted vet of 20 yrs told me it could be a mass in her belly, Cushings Disease or liver disease. I asked what can I do. His first recommendation was to do a liver ultra scan which did not show anything out of the normal except it looked that it might have “sludge”. His next step was to advise a liver biopsy which due to her age and need for anesthesia, could be fatal, plus it is costly. Or we could do a stomach exploration but the same warnings were in effect and again very costly. So I asked a simple question, what treatment would be employed should it be a stomach mass or Cushings? He said he would not really change what he was already we were already doing. I then told him that since the tests were so expensive, I did not need to know the name of the exact malady that was killing her if it would not treated differently. I then asked him would he do if it were his dog? His reply was due to her advanced age and the very large risk anesthetic posed to her, that if it were his dog, he would not chance it. Twelve years is a respectful old age for a dog and he would just try to make her comfortable and happy for her remaining time with us. Now she did not appear to be in any discomfort but of course with a dog, you cannot always tell that. It’s not like they can tell you “My tummy hurts”. However I did notice that her energy levels and appetite were dropping and she began to lose weight and muscle mass. I have a friend who is a certified dog trainer. I was whining to him about feeling useless to help my dear old companion and he suggested that I try a raw diet. I told him at 75, I am really not up to weighing meat to combine with a list of dog supplements that have to be purchased and are sometimes hard to find, then measure all those to mix with steamed vegetables to go along with the raw chicken parts. So I just made this diet up. I feed her one can of a premium wet food for breakfast around 6am. She sometimes eats all of it and sometimes just nibbles at it. Around noon, I feed her one raw drumstick, one raw thigh, and one raw chicken wing, all with bones. I buy the same chicken as I feed my family so I am hoping they are safe for her! I also buy a package of hearts and gizzards and a package of raw chicken livers. I add to the raw chicken a couple of gizzards and hearts. I read from a raw diet blog that you should not feed raw livers every day but 2-3 times a week. I can manage that! She eats every scrap left in the bowl and then licks it to make sure she got every morsel! Then at night I give her a cup or two of Zignature kibble. Again sometimes her bowl is licked clean in the morning, sometimes it is just nibbled on but over all, she mostly eats everything I put in her bowl! Wonders of wonders! She has put back the weight she had lost and is building muscle mass! No, she is no where near gaining enough weight to make her fat but her energy levels are up, her coat is shiny and she once again seems to be really enjoying her life. I figured if all these premium diets touted that they have all the proper amount of supplements a dog needs and she usually eats almost everythingl, that perhaps I don’t have to kill my own old silly self trying to keep her alive and happy! Just to make sure you do not misunderstand me, if she were my one and only dog, I would probably be able to do all the searching for supplements and weighing etc but I also have a year old Morkie and an 8 month old Rottweiler that I feed twice a day. I do not feed the other two dogs a raw diet. As a treat once or twice a week, I will feed the Morkie a chicken liver or a heart or a gizzard but since the Rotty is a large breed dog and still growing, she does not get any raw chicken parts. The other two dogs have no problems eating wet dog/kibble each day and are thriving so no reason to rock the boat for them by changing their diet! I don’t know if I am doing the right thing with my old pit bull. All I know is that for the last two months, since I began the diet above, my old pit bull seems eager to eat. She looks forward to her early morning walks once more, is alert and even goes out to play with the two young pups. Now, she does not chase them as she would have when she was younger, but she seems to enjoy trotting a few yards as they streak by her while she is wagging her tail and barking! I may be doing all the wrong things and hastening her death but my conscious is clear since she appears to be enjoying her life now and before she just looked and acted old and feeble. Again, this is just my own solution and it has NOT been approved by any professional. Please no hate mail but I would welcome any comments or suggestions that do not require a large amount of my own decreasing energy levels. Oh yeah, at first I tried adding the freeze dried raw food by Stella (?) to their Zignature kibble but none of my dogs really cared for it.
    Thanks for reading this long email but I think it’s an old age thing! LOL!!!
    Sincerely,
    Linda

    #122680 Report Abuse

    Spy Car
    Member

    Linda, great to read about the beneficial effects on your old girl. Reducing carbs and increasing fat and protein is the dietary means of increasing energy and muscle building.

    I’m not a bit surprised you are seeing benefits.

    I have one quibble with the raw feeding approach you are using thus far. Too much bone. Way too much bone. The target percentage should be about 10%. You are probably pushing 28-30%. No done harm in the short term, that that much calcium to phosphorus will cause a mineral imbalance. You need to add more meat to this mix. Preferably that would include some red meat (beef heart is very nutritious and often inexpensive) and some fatty (cheap) pork (like leg or butt).

    I’d also add beef kidney at 5% of total diet. The organs provide the vitamins. Supplements are unnecessary, but organs are critical.

    If you make these adjustments you could stop the kibble.

    I hope your dog feels better and better.

    Bill

    #122683 Report Abuse

    LINDA F
    Member

    Hi Bill!
    Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!! I was afraid the bones might be a problem but every time I tried to get a straight answer, they would start talking about calcium and phosphorus and what % to what % of meat and then adjust that to the dog’s weight plus adding a certain % of green veggies and fruits, and my eyes would roll back in my head! Just teasing but as you read in my posts, I am an old lady and unfortunately I also have macular degeneration so trying to get a scale with numbers large enough for me to read but still capable of weighing things less than 10 lbs is near impossible. Also one of the posts I read on this site stated her dog was doing fine on a raw diet until she gave it a beef heart and now the dog is critically ill! I’m already as skittish as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs about feeding her the raw diet so I certainly do not want to add something that could be dangerous to her! Could I just substitute deboned chicken thighs instead of the legs and thighs with bones? Would just one chicken wing with bones and two deboned chicken thigh with a couple of gizzards/hearts and a quarter cup of beef or chicken liver every day be okay for the once a day raw feeding while she is still eating 14 oz of wet food and approximately 1-2 cups of kibble where she will still get some of the minerals etc she needs to flourish? Was the guy who said feeding liver everyday incorrect and not dangerous after all as long as I do not feed her too much liver every day? I am simply incapable of weighing her raw food every day and adding more measured items at the right % of each. I have always been very independent so I hate to keep harping on my age and the limits on my abilities but I order my groceries from Walmart and once a week my son will come over and drive me to the pick up dept to pick up my ordered groceries before he has to be at his work. He often works 6 days a week. There are not many butcher shops in the small town where I live. He does not have time to drive me around to meat markets to buy the things that Walmart does not stock. They do not carry beef hearts but they do carry beef liver! I have shied away from buying roasts or large cuts of meat due to having to cut them up and weigh them to get the right proportions. I could easily cut up the beef liver and feed her a quarter cup or half cup, whatever would not be dangerous for her. Using a measuring cup is no problem since I have individual measuring cups and can tell which is which. Measuring by weight is another matter altogether. I really do appreciate your post and it has confirmed my gut feeling that perhaps I was including too much bone. But, lordy me, does that dog love to crunch up those bones! She is okay with the thighs and drumsticks but does not relish them as much as she does those chicken wings! Surely one wing with bones is not too much bone in her every day diet? She weighs about 65-70 lbs. If I cut out the kibble and wet dog food, she would not get enough food to satisfy her hunger and I simply cannot measure all those items in the proper percents to put her on a completely raw diet. She was pretty close to giving up until I added the (to me) small amount of raw food to her regular diet. Before adding the raw diet, she sometimes would not really eat much for several days at a time. Now she is eating almost all the wet food and almost all the kibble and every bite of the raw chicken every day! I truly apologize for being such a pain but I honestly appreciate what you have suggested. I forgot to mention that she is also on thyroid medication which she gets twice a day. Sincerely, Linda

    #122700 Report Abuse

    Susan
    Member

    Hi Linda,

    Was your girl eating the Zignature dry food when her liver test came back high??
    Sometimes when a kibble is very high in toxins, heavy metals & contaminates this can cause high liver results, Fish is one of the worse proteins to feed in an dog food…
    The cleanest meats used in dog foods are Chicken & Turkey.
    I’d stop feeding her the Zignature & try another dry food a different “brand” …
    When “Eagle Pack” Giant/Large breed Adult dry was tested for toxins & heavy metals it came back 5 stars really good results, same with “Canidae” dry formula’s…
    if you google you will find this site that does studies on 299 best selling dog foods that are tested & are high in heavy metals & contaminates.

    #122701 Report Abuse

    LINDA F
    Member

    Hi Susan!
    Thank you so much for your response. No, she was not on Zignature then. Funny you should suggest Canidea! I had been feeding feeding all my dogs Canidea All Life Stages Multi-Protein kibble for many years and was well pleased with the Canadea. However, when my old dog, Kayli, stopped eating almost anything and I found out her liver values were so high, I thought perhaps she might be more tempted by some other brand. I only changed all the dogs over to Zignature about 6 months ago. She still would not eat much and was still losing weight and muscle mass and I also tried Fromm’s Gold but the results were no better so I put them all back on Zignature and was desperate so I decided to try the once a day raw feeding. It is the ONLY thing that seems to have worked for her to tempt her appetite and increase her energy levels. She’s a much happier dog now and in fact, when it starts getting close to noon and I walk into the kitchen, Kayli thinks I am about to give her the raw chicken and will come trotting into the kitchen. When she sees I am doing something else and not getting the raw chicken parts from the frig, she will get an almost disappointed look on her now gray face, and go back to the living room! My son worked at GNC for years and he checks out all the food before we try it out on the dogs. He said Zignature seemed to be a healthy alternative to the Canidea. However, again, thank you so much for taking your time to try to help.
    Sincerely,
    Linda

    #122912 Report Abuse

    Spy Car
    Member

    Linda, it is not super complex, but there is a ratio of minerals (calcium to phosphorus) that needs to be maintained.

    You can do that by making soft edible bone about 10% of the diet.

    Here are some bone percentages of common chicken parts:

    Chicken Breast (with ribs) 20%
    Thigh: 21%
    Leg Quarter 28%
    Drumstick 30%
    Chicken Wings 46%

    You can balance by eye. Say you are feeding a drumstick. They are 30% bone. If you figured in parts of 10, a drumstick would provide 2 parts of ten in meat and one part of 10 in bone.

    So if you fed two portions of boneless meat that are approximately the same size as the drumstick, you’d have 3 parts of meat from the first portion, 3 parts of meat from the second portion, plus 2 parts of meat from the chicken drumstick. So 8 parts of ten altogether, which hits the target of 80% “meat.”

    The drumstick would provide the 10% soft edible bone.

    No need to weigh this. You can estimate.

    The last 1/10 is organ. You can (despite what someone told you) feed liver every day. However, only half the organs should be liver. The “other” should be things like kidney, sweetbreads (thymus and pancreatic glands), melts (spleen), etc).

    To make my life easier I freeze organs in sizes that match 10% of the diet and then alternate days. The first day is a “lever day” and the next is an “other” day. If you can only get beef kidney, that’s OK.

    Don’t be dissuaded from beef heart because of one story on the internet. Beef heart is highly nutritious and tends to be inexpensive. Fatty pork like leg, shoulder, and butt are economical too.

    Do add new proteins slowly. Smaller to larger pieces.

    It is not super complicated to balance bone. If you take a little time to estimate (by eye and using the weight on meat packages as a guide) you will soon find portioning second nature. Meals can be a little over or under on any given day, the key is to be in the general ballpark over time.

    Overfeeding bone over the long-term can lead to very bad health consequences. It is one of the legitimate criticisms of raw diets if and when people don’t feed in reasonable approximation to 10% bone. 10% bone and 10% organs, combined with 80% meat, will give your dog the most optimal nutrition.

    Carbohydrates in a canine diet directly reduce stamina and energy. But cutting these out as much as possible you should see the renewed vigor you’ve already noticed maintain or increase. Unfortunately, many “senior” dog formulas start cutting protein and fat (and increasing carbs) at the life stage where older dogs are already losing energy. It is the worst possible approach and one that will advance lethargy.

    I hope this helps you.

    Bill

    #122963 Report Abuse

    Patty R
    Member

    I have just joined this site and have read a number of comments. The one thing worrying me about a raw diet is that I saw a complete article extolling the value of raw food feeding on which the last sentence was basically, “PUPPIES should not be fed a raw food diet.” I have a four month old miniature Schnauzer and don’t know who to believe. Based on what all of you have seen, is it best to wait until the puppy is grown before starting?

    #122964 Report Abuse

    anon101
    Member

    You can believe Science Based Veterinary Medicine.
    http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?s=raw+diet

    Nothing is being sold at the above site. No membership fees. No supplements No books. Nothing.

    #122965 Report Abuse

    If you can properly balance for a puppy, you can feed it to them. Most people find it too hard or worrisome about balancing for a puppy’s needs so they feed a premade raw/freeze dried/can or kibble until they’re an adult.

    I did premade raw and freeze dried with my terrier as a puppy.

    #122967 Report Abuse

    LINDA F
    Member

    To Spy Car,
    Oh, thank you so much! I am printing this mail for reference until I develop an eye for what I’m doing. The way you explained it makes it so much easier and I’m pretty sure I can do this now! I was just overwhelmed and confused by all the conflicting info I found when trying to research a raw diet! My old pit bull just loves the raw chicken and she is doing so much better. Now I will be more confident that I am not killing her with it.
    Again thank you for taking your time to help a stranger.
    Linda

    #122968 Report Abuse

    LINDA F
    Member

    To Patty,
    I am a novice at this. From what I understand, a lot of people are feeding their puppies on a raw diet, However a puppy’s dietary needs are different from adult dogs and the ratio of meat to bone to organ meats is different. I have an old pit bull and she had almost stopped eating her kibble and any wet food that I used to entice her to eat. I tried some raw chicken drumsticks with bones, raw chicken wings with bones, raw chicken thighs with bones and an occasional raw chicken liver and she perked up immediately. However, I was told that I was feeding her way too much bone and enough meat or organ meats. I was not feeding the proper ratio but Spy Car’s post really helped me understand how to do it correctly. By the time I memorize all the ratios and I get the hang of feeding the proper ratio to my old girl, my Morkie puppy will have reached her first birthday. If my old girl is still thriving on the raw diet, I may introduce the Morkie to the raw diet and see if she does as well. However, and this is strictly my own opinion and I am in no way qualified to give you professional advice, but I am going to wait for my Morkie reach one year before I begin introducing her to the raw diet. Just be aware that feeding a raw diet is more trouble than just pouring some kibble in a bowl or opening a can of dog food. Good luck!
    Linda

    #122969 Report Abuse

    LINDA F
    Member

    Sorry, that sentence should have read “However, I was told that I was feeding her way too much bone and NOT enough meat or organ meats.” I am horrible at proofing reading my own letters! I have the tendency to read what I THINK I wrote.
    Linda

    #123022 Report Abuse

    Susan
    Member

    Hi Patty,

    why they say dont feed puppies a raw diet is like Tyrionthebiscuit said, it’s hard to balance a growing dog diet, especially large breed puppy, their bones can grow too quickly & cause osteo problems later when the pup is a fully grown adult, so they say to put the large breed pup on a large breed puppy formula till the dog is 18-24months, then when dog is fully grown then start feeding the large dog a raw diet…
    You have a small breed pup you should be right, there’s heaps of balanced premade raw diets & freeze dried dehydrated raw on the market…..
    299 most popular dry dog foods are tested every 3 months for heavy metals & contaminates, these 3 brands came 1st, 2nd & 3rd they got 5 stars when tested for toxins, heavy metals & contaminates..

    * “Buckley Liberty” Freeze-Dried Dry Dog Food the Beef, Lamb & chicken formula’s
    * “CaniSource Grand Cru” All Life Stages Dehydrated Raw Dry Dog Food their Turkey, Lamb & Meat formula’s
    * “BIXBI Rawbble” Freeze-Dried Dry Dog foods, their LAmb, Duck Chicken & Salmon formula’s
    another good brand I hear people saying is really good is “Answers” fermented raw..

    Join a few raw feeding f/b groups there’s Lew Olsons “K-9 Nurition” Lews book is excellent for starting home made raw.
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/371592139642185/
    Monica Segal “K-9 Kitchen” https://www.facebook.com/groups/K9Kitchen/
    also has a few books that are good aswell..
    Why alot a vet are against raw feeding is cause they have seen the bad when a raw diet isn’t balance properly like Rickets, Rickets is caused by a lack of vitamin D, calcium or phosphorus.
    Good luck you’re on the right track feeding a raw diet…

    #123040 Report Abuse

    Spy Car
    Member

    @linda,

    I’m glad that helped. I intended to add one more thing. I will now.

    To help you visualize. Remember we started with the (30% bone) chicken drumstick? I suggested looking at this as 3/10s of a meal, right?

    So you’d add two roughly equal sized portions that would also be 3/10s of a total meal (each), so 6/10s together, plus the 3/10s from the drumstick to get 9/10s. With me?

    Now you need the last 1/10. The organs. The easiest way “to see that” (meaning no scale) is to picture what one of those 2 meat portions would look like if they were cut into thirds. One-third of a single meat portion (one of the two meat portions) is 10% of a meal.

    Looking at meal building this way help make meal balancing easy.

    I happen to pack my meat portions in “snack-sized” ziplock bags, that are then packed by type in larger ziplocks. This makes it easy for me to grab “portions” and to keep meals roughly balanced.

    I hope this helps you.

    Best,

    Bill

    #123043 Report Abuse

    Spy Car
    Member

    @ Patty R, starting my (now 4.5 year-old) Vizsla as an 8-week old puppy eating a balanced PMR diet from day one is one of the best decisions I’ve ever made.

    Like anyone who is conscientious, I had read a great deal of conflicting information, including the scare tactics on such disreputable websites as “SkeptVet.” I made a deal with my wife that we would proceed, but would abandon the raw diet if there were any problems.

    Instead, both our highest expectations have been surpassed. Our dog has thrived. His teeth are still pearly white, he’s super lean and very well muscled, and has both great energy and endurance, but is also calm when he’s not working and winds down in the house. His coat is soft, his eyes are clear, the amount of stool is scant, and I’m frequently told he “looks like a supermodel.”

    Our vet (very traditional) has breed knowledge (she actually owns my dog’s grand-sire) and she is extremely happy with both his condition and his bloodwork.

    I’ve owned may great canine athletes in my long years owning and training dogs. I only wish I’d know about PMR style raw feeding sooner, I have some feelings of guilt that I fed my dogs such crap in my former ignorance of optimal canine nutrition.

    There is no comparison between the condition achieved with feeding a dog what their species was shaped by evolution to thrive on vs the unnatural cereal-based products that are supplemented with plant proteins and rendered meats. The differences are not subtle. When I meet a raw fed dog I know it without a word form its owner. I’ve had other raw feeders (complete strangers) come up and say “I see you raw feed.” It is that obvious a difference.

    Feeding a balanced raw diet is the best thing one can do for their canine companions.

    Bill

    #123044 Report Abuse

    Spy Car
    Member

    It is necessary to balance nutrients like calcium and phosphorus, but feeding a 80/10/10 diet keeps minerals balanced and the organs supply all the nutrients a dog or puppy need to thrive.

    It is far more optimal to start a pup on raw—during a time when excellent nutrition is most critical–rather than feeding pups a junk food diet. Just like it would be a bad idea to raise a toddler on Happy Meals from McDonalds, feeding commercial kibble is a very substandard way to feed a growing pup.

    Raw feeding is actually extremely popular among large and giant sized dog owners as it promotes slow steady growth, lean muscle development, reduced body fat, and strong joints.

    Bill

    #123049 Report Abuse

    LINDA F
    Member

    Here I am again! I stand corrected on my initial opinion of whether or not feeding a puppy a raw diet is good. I have gotten so much valuable info from Spy Car! He easily broke it down so that even this old lady can manage the raw diet. I trust this man completely. I think the only thing I could add to this is, if you are going to go to a raw diet for a puppy, you would need to be vigilant in a weighing your pup every week! Since puppies can and will have growth spurts, it would be absolutely necessary to keep adjusting the amount of food in order to ensure that the pup would be getting all the required meat, bone and organ meat so that his body has the necessary building blocks to nourish a healthy growing body. I am still searching for a market that sells beef hearts or kidneys! The existence of Spleens or the other secreting organs seem to myths so far! LOL!! I do not want to go to a packing house because I do not trust that those organs are handled properly and that they might be tainted. I checked out the Monster Mash from Raw Feeding Miami. This seems to be a perfect solution for me. They say that the mix is complete as far as the 10% organ requirement. They also advised that the mix arrives cold and can be divided into smaller portions and refrozen safely. As Spy Car advised, I am adding the meat, bone and organ requirements for one meal in a zip lock baggy and freezing them. Then all I have to do is place tomorrow’s meal in the refrigerate to defrost over night! I will pick out one day a month to prepare meals for the entire month! At that point, raw feeding will be almost as easy as opening a can or pouring a bowl of kibble! I am not experienced enough yet to know exactly how much of the Monster Mash I will need for a month but since they have a 15 lb minimum shipping charge, I will just order 15 lbs to see how many zip locks it makes! I know if my math skills were better and my mind were as sharp as it once was, I could figure this out but, alas, it is what it is! Again, kudos to Spy Car, who has been beyond helpful in untangling this sometimes very confusing raw diet that my old girl just loves!
    Linda

    #123051 Report Abuse

    Spy Car
    Member

    @linda,

    I’m so glad my posts have helped you!

    You will never find “spleen” in markets (under that name anyway), but you may find them as “melts.” My advice is to seek out so-called “ethnic” markets or supermarkets if you have any in your area. Markets that aim at Asian, Latino, Middle-Eastern, or Russian/Armenian clientele are much more likely to carry odd bits.

    I have a market that sells sweetbreads (pancreas and thymus glands) very inexpensively, which surprised me, as sweetbreads when well prepared are a great delicacy for humans.

    As one gets into raw feeding, finding ways of sourcing inexpensive items that diversify the dog’s diet tends to become part of the experience.

    Since my Vizsla, the same size as your dog at about 60 lbs, has such powerful neck and jaw muscles due to raw feeding since 8 weeks, I generally serve his food straight from the freezer. And he loves his food! The is no hyperbole when I tell you that he leaps high into the air (almost 4 feet up) when it is meal time.

    Not thawing promotes better chewing, is more convenient, and reduces risks of cross-contamination. It is not “necessary,” and if your dog doesn’t like it there is no need. But many dogs who come late to organs and are averse to them when thawed will eat them when they are served frozen (it is a texture thing in some cases).

    I do need to put some work into cutting and bagging fresh ingredients as “portions” in preparation for packing into the freezer. But the actual mealtimes are a snap. I just grab an assortment of prepacked portions, open, and serve.

    As you spend time trying to roughly balance meals (incorporating the ideas and bone percentages above) try to think in “portions” and rough fractions. Individual meals can be a little over or under the target goal of 10% bone, as the most important thing is to maintain balance over time. If you go “bone heavy” one day (say you serve a chicken quarter with one portion of “meat” one day), then go lighter on bone the next (maybe a neck or a wing with relatively more meat).

    After a time this “balancing” really does become second nature. You won’t need “math” as you become confident with your powers of estimation.

    If you have any questions, I’m happy to help you Linda.

    This is a very good thing that you are doing for your dog.

    I’d like to hear about your progress.

    Bill

    #123056 Report Abuse

    anon101
    Member

    “My advice is to seek out so-called “ethnic” markets or supermarkets if you have any in your area. Markets that aim at Asian, Latino, Middle-Eastern, or Russian/Armenian clientele are much more likely to carry odd bits”.

    Not true and still offensive.

    PS: People in the ethnic groups mentioned eat a lot of legumes, rice and potatoes (gasp).
    That’s a good thing! Mediterranean diet

    #123057 Report Abuse

    Spy Car
    Member

    Please stop trolling the raw feeding subforum.

    Moderators, please don’t reward this behavior by locking this thread.

    Sorry that you don’t like legumes or offal. There is nothing offensive in my posts. Please stop with these antics.

    Bill

    #123059 Report Abuse

    LINDA F
    Member

    Bill, just ignore ignorance. People like anon101 is the main reason that people of all faiths, colors, creeds and back grounds have a difficult time getting along peacefully with others. I find that visiting other cultures and trying to make friends with ALL people promotes tolerance and understanding. I think the people who LOOK for something offensive will make almost anything appear offensive just so they can irritate someone into responding. I believe they want a response because they are dull, little people and so uninteresting on their own that any attention they get is rewarding to them. They are like young children who crave attention but they are not mature enough to care whether it is attention for good behavior or bad behavior. They just want the attention. Now having said that, I have probably given him a new target, me! LOL!! But this is my one and only time in playing his game! So I suggest that everyone ignore him and eventually, without any more attention given to him, he will go away. I am so grateful for your help. You have made this so much easier for me and for that I will be eternally grateful.
    Linda

    #123060 Report Abuse

    Spy Car
    Member

    Anytime Linda. My pleasure!

    I really hope optimal nutrition provides your dog her best possible years.

    If you have any questions, now or later, I’m happy to help.

    Bill

    #123062 Report Abuse

    InkedMarie
    Member

    Late to the thread but when my youngest dog came home at 9 weeks, he went directly to ground raw with bones for dental health.

    #123064 Report Abuse

    LINDA F
    Member

    Thanks for your post. As a newbie, every bit of real experience helps!
    Linda

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