[crazy4cats]

Hey, that is great news! Maybe that will set some people’s minds at ease that not every dog on grain free will end up with a broken heart. Sounds like you are taking great care of Koby. Best wishes to you!

[susan k]

Thanks, crazy4cats! Koby is the apple of my eye — I would do anything for him! Best wishes to you too, and to all your kitties!

I think they don’t really know what’s causing the increase in canine DCM cases. The New York Times article as well as other things I’ve read tend to say the common thread is grain-free, but actually on the UC Davis spreadsheet it’s clear some of the dogs with DCM are NOT on grain-free. And some grain-frees (like Wellness CORE) add taurine. Most dog and cat foods these days have added taurine, but a lot of them have it as a very minor ingredient, way down at the end of the list. CORE does have peas and potatoes (which obviously aren’t preventing Koby from absorbing taurine, though that may not hold for all dogs) right after the meat, but taurine is the first of the added vitamins/supplements after the food ingredients.

I hope the dog food companies subscribe to this list — I think they should see how panicked everybody is about the state of pet food these days!

[Susan]

Hi Susan k,

That’s great news Koby’s test results have come back all good..
Which “Wellness Core” formula do you feed?? you just write Wellness Core.
I feed Wellness Core, I feed the Large Breed formula cause it has the lowest fat% -13%, low Kcals per cup-345 & is high in meat proteins & low in carbs.
First 6 Ingredients in Wellness Core, Large Breed formula-
“Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Turkey Meal, Potatoes, Peas, Tomato Pomace,

Most of the Wellness Core formula’s are HIGH in “meat proteins” & lower in carbs
BUT some of the Wellness Core formula’s Wild Game & Lamb have been changed & do have Lentils & Chickpeas now 🙁

Potatoes are NOT the problem, it’s the high Legumes diets, that have Lentils, Chickpeas, Pea Protein, Peas, Pea Fiber in the first 4-5 ingredients & the dogs breed that are predisposed to DCM have more chances of becoming unwellwith Heart problems…..

[susan k]

Hi Susan, thanks! I feed Wellness Core Original — thought I mentioned that somewhere. I don’t think the data — at least the data I’ve seen (the UC Davis study) show any clear patterns re: is is legumes, is it potatoes, is it low taurine caused by high legumes, etc. But yes, some dogs are predisposed, which is a large part of the problem. Cairns are nowhere on the list, luckily for me, and while some Wellness Core varieties are mentioned in the UC Davis data I think it’s only two or three times, and all the dogs with problems are Goldens.

Here are the ingredients in Wellness Core Original — peas and potatoes are fifth -seventh on the list, which seems like a lot (maybe they’ll get rid of some of this since several of us have called or emailed them):

Deboned Turkey, Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Peas, Potatoes, Dried Ground Potatoes, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Tomato Pomace, Chicken Liver, Natural Chicken Flavor, Ground Flaxseed, Salmon Oil, Spinach, Vitamin E Supplement, Broccoli, Carrots, Choline Chloride, Parsley, Apples, Blueberries, Kale, Sweet Potatoes, Taurine, Mixed Tocopherols added to preserve freshness, Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Chondroitin Sulfate, Calcium Carbonate, Niacin, Ferrous Sulfate, Iron Proteinate, Beta-Carotene, Vitamin A Supplement, Copper Sulfate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Manganese Sulfate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Chicory Root Extract, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Calcium Iodate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Dried Lactobacillus plantarum Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus casei Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Rosemary Extract, Green Tea Extract, Spearmint Extract.

the other Susan

[Mark C]

I’ve seen brief mention in here of Nature’s Logic. Is there an issue with this food? I just ordered the beef since it’s lower protein and calories. Eventually I want to mix it with something like with it to balance things. But, if there’s a problem with the food I’d appreciate any insight

[Reese B]

Hi Mark,
I thought about trying out Nature’s logic too, but the calcium levels were sooo high. Like double the recommended dosage for dogs. I didn’t feel comfortable feeding it.

[anonymous]

@ Spycar/and whoever else
I watched the YouTube video, less than 1 minute of gibberish. I would not take dietary advice from that guy, he is overweight (big time). Plus, he looks a little pasty, hope he’s getting routine labs done. Just saying. Could be the camera angle? Lighting?
Again, absolutely no meaningful information presented.

Just my opinion, if you find these things helpful, I’m glad.

[Tyrionthebiscuit]

And what do any of those things have to do with animal nutrition? I could make generalize comments about you based on your arguments, and therefore prove your lack of knowledge in the same way you tried to do here.

We’ve moved on from the video, 6 comments ago. Stop trying to incite riots because that’s really all your comment was intended for.

[Patricia A]

Someone on the Taurine Deficient Dilated Cadiomyopathy Facebook forum posted this link which shows foods that their dogs were on and Taurine levels when tested.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TNru_WWKf0TbZ8aYBgOJjsh4cziKZwdA6GEbXTUFJ_M/edit#gid=582733736. If link doesn’t work go to the f/b page. Also some good discussions regarding dog foods.

[Therese M]

I was just at the vet this week and asked about this. She said you can add a 250 mg supplement that should cover the uptake issue. She also said this is caused by the peas and potatoes blocking the conversion of cysteine and methionine into taurine. She said switch to grain inclusive food with the next bag (we’ve been on a potato based food, just because my first dog is so picky and that’s what she liked- I never bought into the grain free thing, and the vet said it’s silly and happened after gluten free happened in people, and is based on no research whatsoever). She feeds Purina Pro Plan, with corn, and said that corn is fine for dogs, what do you think the prey they eat had for breakfast? Fair point. She also said corn gluten meal is very healthy as an ingredient and gets a bad wrap because it sounds like leftover junk. So the next bag I get will have corn in it. Rich foods don’t work for my dogs anyway, so everything listed on this page as 5 star makes them terribly ill, and most the 4 star stuff does too. We do a rotational diet so it’s easy enough to switch around if something doesn’t work. Currently we have Canidae ALS and Muenster ancient grains chicken open, and no one is scarfing it down, but they’re both new, so we’ll see how it goes in a few days.

I am not a fan of how the FDA is handling this- a big announcement that freaks everyone out that isn’t a vet, and is so vague no one even knows what exactly it even means, if anything.

[joanne l]

I think too many consumers wanted grain free, and the companies did what we ask of them, However in my opinion grains be around too long and there was no problems. I like grain in diets and it is frustrating looking for a good grain in diet b/c grain free is too overwhelming. I hope the grain free diets slow down and more grain in diets pop up. I also, believe there is something wrong with the “exotic” meats as well. These meats are coming half way around the world and I don’t trust it at all!!! And the peas and lentils I think are also making absorption of taurine hard just like someone else said as well. My goodness, we need good old fashion dog food. Years ago, many of the old folks I know mentioned how their dogs only ate Alpo, Purina and never had problems in fact they mentioned dogs lived for 15 to 20 years eating this. Amazing isn’t it. I agree with someone that posted, “I don’t know what to feed anymore”.

[crazy4cats]

Yes, Joanne, trust your instincts and go with a large company that has been around for a while. They also should have a vet nutritionist on staff. If you don’t want to feed a food made by Mars (Royal Canin, Eukanuba, Iams), Purina or Hills, check out Annamaet. They are also getting praises from some of the vets on the FB group I’m following.

We absolutely cannot tell the quality of a food by looking at the label. We have to go with a company we trust to do it correctly. Corn, rice, barley and oatmeal are not evil ingredients as long as you choose a company that uses the high quality stuff. Good luck!

[joanne l]

Thank you, I heard Annameat is very good as well. Right now I am feeding Pro plan Lamb and oatmeal sensitive stomach. This one has probiotics in it the other formula’s don’t. Seems like a good formula, we shall see.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by joanne l.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by joanne l.

[crazy4cats]

Sounds good. I may try that one too. Right now, I went with PPP large breed weight management. I fed it once before with good results. Fingers crossed for both of us.

[Spy Car]

@ Spycar/and whoever else
I watched the YouTube video, less than 1 minute of gibberish. I would not take dietary advice from that guy, he is overweight (big time). Plus, he looks a little pasty, hope he’s getting routine labs done. Just saying. Could be the camera angle? Lighting?
Again, absolutely no meaningful information presented.

Just my opinion, if you find these things helpful, I’m glad.

LOL @ anon101.

The video wasn’t about the head of AAFCO offering dietary advice. It was part of a news story where he confirmed that AAFCO standards allow pet food companies to use dead pets as ingredients in dog food.

You may not find it meaningful that dead dogs and cats can be legally fed to dogs and cats as part of commercial pet food products, but I suspect some consumers might have a different perspective.

Bill

[joanne l]

I was thinking more about this and I am wondering if the exotic meats they use have some chemical to keep it from spoiling in there that affects the heart. I know this sounds far fetched, but I am just thinking about all angles of this. And or they have some kind of disease that is affecting pets? Because we really don’t know much about these exotic animals (scientifically) here in the US. After all I think it is not legal to eat certain ones here or something like that. Maybe I am too much of a thinker so these are not facts these are just my thoughts about certain things. I wanted to also mention that I heard of 2 dogs, one a German Shepard and the other is a mastiff both diagnosed with CHF and both were eating kangaroo dry dog food, pretty weird.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by joanne l.

[Susan]

Hi Joanne,

Yes I heard the same thing, it was the “Zignature Kangaroo” formula it’s very high red & green lentils, like I said these pet food companies up the protein % with plant proteins instead of having more Kangaroo meat cause Roo is more expensive in America, thats why I email Zignature a year ago & asked them where are they getting their kangaroo meat from?? cause I knew Zignature had changed their Zignature Kangaroo formula & added red Lentils there’s not much kangaroo meat in the dry Zignature formula now, where it once was good when I use to recommend Zignature for dogs with food sensitivities & allergies so they are paying top dollar for their Kangaroo meal now…

Most Australian pet owners normally feed their dogs a dry kibble & they add some raw Kangaroo meat or raw meaty bones with the dry kibble..
We can buy raw meaty beef, chicken, kangaroo, Crocodile bones, Kangaroo tail, Kangaroo minced meat, from Pet Shops, I’d say its all By product meats healthy fresh By Product meats, By product Kangaroo is apparently is very healthy.
Our vets always recommend to add some raw Kangaroo to your dogs diet cause its very healthy, I cant handle the smell of Kangaroo, its has a strong meathy smell & tastes very rich meat, when its made into a dry kibble cooked & cooked at high tempretures this is when these byproduct meat lose their goodness & dont have all the goodness they once had…

Our dead Kangaroos, dead cows, dead horses that are on the side of the road are picked up by the local council, the council for that area is informed & a garbage truck goes & gets the dead animal off the rd within 24hr & it’s put into the garbage truck, then it’s taken to the tip & if its a dead dog or dead cat the animal is scanned for a microchip & owner is notified, if there’s no Micro Chip the cat or dog is throwned into the garbage truck & taken to the local tip…
I’d say America probably does the same thing, all road kill probably ends up as land fill…
I hope it does cause Patch eats American made kibble, he seems to do better with his IBD then the Australian made grain free formula’s, he does OK on some Australian made grain dry kibbles but better with the Potato, Sweet potato grain free US kibbles.

I use my nose, as soon as I open a new bag of kibble I smell it, some kibbles smell OK when the kibble bags is first opened, then after 1-2 weeks I re smell the kibble thats in air tight containers & some kibbles starts to have an “awful” off meat smell & of cause Patch likes this kibble BUT I throw it out or I take it back to the Pet shop it’s an expensive brand, But Wellness & Canidae kibbles always stay & smell the same as they smelt when I first opened up the kibble bag, they dont smell worse after 2-3 weeks, where some Australian, made kibbles smelt awful & I’ve noticed the ones that were Fish started to get a rotten fishy smell after 2 weeks…

Start smelling your dry kibble from the day you open the bag then after it’s been in Air tight container or in it’s orginal kibble bag & see does the smell stay the same or get worse??
Then you’ll know rotten rendered meats were used, I think the kibbles that start to smell of rotten meat after 1-2 weeks have use rendered rotten meats….

How’s your sick dog going? I don’t know his name, is he doing much better now he’s on the different Pro Plan Sensitive kibble?
He might be like Patch, very sensitive & they know straight away when something isnt right with their food, cause a few American brands of kibble that ended up on the high toxins & contaminates list, Patch ate & became unwell after he ate those formula’s..
I use to feed fish thru the Summer months cause of Patches allergies then I’d rotate & feed Lamb or Pork thru the Winter months…

So sometimes toxins & contaminates play a big part in making our pets ill & die..

[joanne l]

Hi Susan I noticed that too with bags of food, when you first open it up it smells good and after a week or two it doesn’t. Fromm dog food always smells good even when opened for a few weeks. I used to use it but a lot of their formulas are too high in protein and too many grain free choices. Over all a great food. Getting back to exotic meats, I think for now when people have dogs that have allergies or IBS or IBD depending how bad, they may want to use prescription diets. I really never liked them, but if a dog is that bag off at least these companies have a lot of science and a lot of experience behind them. I know some people won’t like the ingredients and or they say quality is not good, but you also here people say their dogs got sick eating the top brands too. I hear it all the time on the internet people saying my dog got sick on orjein or wellness or merrick etc…. And that goes for to big brand names too. You will hear my dogs to great on science diet, pro plan etc…and you will hear my dogs didn’t. You will hear good and bad in all these dog foods. So like I said maybe people should go with the tried and true formula’s instead of exotic when it comes down to allergies and so forth. Like I said these new Formulas have not been around long enough to know. I get confused to with all these choices and even when I did try top brands I would hold my breath hoping the dog will take to it. I guess it is a matter of what the owner feels good about the food and has peace of mind with it.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by joanne l.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by joanne l.

[Dennis T]

This entire thing has got me all crazy. My dog is currently in Merrick Grain Free Chicken and Sweet potato but she’s gotten bored of it and sniffs/turns away. I was planning on switching her over to Canidae’s new dog food formula “Ancestral Raw Coated Avian formula or Raw Coated fish formula”. However, while this food shows a lot of meat (quail and pheasant are safe for dogs?) It also includes Legumes, so now I’m cautious. Does anyone have any thoughts on this new formula or just any recommendations in general?

[Susan]

Hi Dennis,
What breed is your dog??
Read this
https://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2018/07/09/link-between-dog-food-taurine-deficiency-and-dcm.aspx

In Australia we have not been warned about Dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM) nothing has been mentioned & no one seems to care…
I think its cause we are not getting the Dog Foods from America that were involved in this….. Even my vet said until we know more & whats happening just keep doing what your doing with Patch.

I want to try the NEW Canidae, Grain Free PURE Ancestral™ Red Meat Formula Raw Coated Dry Dog Food, Ive been waiting & waiting to try Canidae’s new Ancestral formula, Canidae keep telling me 3 weeks, then they say another 3weeks they have more paper work to hand in etc etc cause we have very strict laws when any new dog foods come into Australia they have to pass or new food is NOT allowe into the country aaaaaarrrrrrrrrhhhhhhhhh

The Canidae Ancestral Red Meat formula the lentils are 7th ingredients so there isn’t more then 20% Legumes or any starch carbs in the first 5-6 ingredients, this Ancestral formula has more meat protein then Plant Proteins same as the Canidae Grain Free PURE Ancestral™ Avian Formula, Raw Coated Dry Dog Food, With Quail, Chicken & Turkey … rotate feed, feed 1 formula for Breakfast & another formula/brand for dinner so she doesnt get bored….

Read the link I posted above & keep rotating between different brands & make sure meat proteins are 1st, 2nd, 3rd ingredient so you have more meat proteins & less starchy plant proteins..
This is the Canidae Ancestral raw formula I want to try..dogs would love this…
https://www.canidae.com/dogs/canidae-grain-free-pure-ancestral-raw-coated-dry-red-meat-formula-with-lamb-goat-wild-boar/

[crazy4cats]

Hi Dennis-

Maybe this article and video will be helpful:

What You Should Know About the FDA Alert on Grain Free Dog Foods

Also if you do FB, join the taurine-deficient dilated Cardiomyapathy group. There are several vets and the cardiologist who is heading the investigation is active on the site. Neither Canidae’s or Champion’s foods have fared very well on taurine tests according to the taurine data tables.

I would stick to a large company that has been around for a while and has an actual veterinarian nutritionist on staff. For now, I’m avoiding legumes and potatoes that are listed in the first five ingredients. Best wishes for you and your pup. 🐶

[Dennis T]

Thank you for the link! I’ve been reading up on a few articles on this issue but my head right now is all jumbled so it’s still making me overthink. My dog is an American Staffordshire mixed with Dalmation. However, she’s allergic to Pork so I would not think the Canidae Red Meat ancestral would do well for her. One issue with these new formulas is that they are still new and we dont have much info on them. The idea of raw coated kibble sounds interesting though, and my dog is definitely a sniffer (smells food and either walks away or eats). The Avian and Fish formulas seem to be a hit with people on Chewy and it seems like they are filled with meat, however, Idk, I’m just so cautious now.

Thank you for your tips too!

[Dennis T]

Hi Crazy4cats!

Thank you too for your advice! I actually commented on that article as well haha. Canidae has normally been a pretty good brand though I did take note of the taurine levels. It appears some of their formulas were okay though, unless I’m reading the table wrong. This new formula is unknown however, but it’s ingredients have more meat than their other formulas, perhaps it might be better? I’ve never really heard of dogs eating Quail, guinea fowl or pheasant though so I’m not sure how beneficial they are as far as nutrition goes. Their Fish formula raw coated perhaps might be better than the poultry/meat? I’m not sure 🙁

Thank you for your well wishes too!!

[Susan]

*Acana had 16 of their formula’s on the Low Taurine list & again the dogs just ate the same dry Acana food more then 1yr

*Fromm had 12 different formula’s that affected dogs Taurine levels & people are stopping their good dog foods & changing over to Fromm fomula’s.. 🙁
I notice these dogs who tested Low in Taurine were feed the SAME diet more then 6months over 1 yr..

*4Health had 4 of their forumla’s on the list

*Zignature had 3 formula’s (I think)

*Canidae had 3 of their formula’s where dogs tested low in Taurine, Chicken & Rice formula, All Life Stages grain formula & Pure Sky formula, then there were dogs that ate Canidae formula’s & they were “Fine” 1 owner added raw Turkey, eggs & cottage Cheese & his Taurine test came back fine, so this is telling me this is genetics…

I notice these dogs test that were Low Taurine were feed the “SAME” diet more then 6months, some more then 1 yr..

If you have a breed that is predisposed to heart problems, then I’d take your dog to see a vet & have a blood test done & take it from there, others that dont have a breed that’s prone to heart problems just keep feeding what you’re feeding & rotate & change brands with the seasons, don’t feed the same dry kibble more then 4months & dont Stress out….

Here’s the Taurine list.. you might need to be on f/b for it to work..

https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/2018-09-01%20Copy%20of%20Diet%20and%20Taurine%20Table.pdf?token=AWw34aBaca80R1PN-JJjiCu8YfP-Y_smfi4dMbEHiWCP-2XqM6C2nzYbmp0Qy8aEywUU1l4Oh4mH_6hQ8I9uTspCfOA6N4MVOyQ6Hsuj4wEb6d3QodPL57e1o-J9Nfh3ywUnQmmLEBnXEiK5K2e5WPjdKZlJhytf6y5_a_wOWQh1BQ

Here’s the “Taurine-Deficient Dilated Cardiomyopathy”f/b group then the Taurine list is in their “Files” Dr Stern gives some good advice..
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1952593284998859/

[crazy4cats]

I am learning that it really isn’t about how much meat is in the food. It is about how it is processed and how all of the ingredients “work” together. It’s a nutrient package, so to speak. I’d stick with chicken, turkey, lamb or beef if you can. They have been around for the longest and have the most testing behind them. Don’t look at the ingredient label from a human stand point. Lol! Keep it simple! Try to stay away from the legumes and potatoes too.

I put a little canned on my dogs’ kibble. It makes it more appetizing. Also, most canned foods are complete and balanced, so no worry of throwing off their needed nutrients. We tend to give too many treats that may do that. Lol!

My suggestions are: Royal Canin, Purina, Hills, Iams, or Eukanuba. Also Farmina, Annamaet, and Authority seem to be doing well on the data table as well, but don’t have as much history behind them.

I just switched to Purina PP from Fromm and Whole Earth Farms before that. Hope this helps!

[InkedMarie]

I can’t tell you how many years it’s been since I fed grain inclusive foods. I ordered a bag of Victor Hi Pro Plis & Dr Tim’s Kinesis (wanted Pursuit but can’t find it in a 30lb or less bag). I’ve got to try to be honest about my opinions as I’ve fed grainfree for so long.

[Dennis T]

Interesting information and I’ll be sure to join that group, thank you!

[Dennis T]

This is valuable info as well! I’m curious on your thoughts of fish formulas? One of the vets I used to go to always told me to choose the fish formulas if they are from companies with high quality ingredients.

[crazy4cats]

I’m a little confused about fish as well. You could join the group and ask. I do know that ProPlan has a salmon recipe that has been recommended by the experts on that forum. I’m certainly no expert, but have learned a lot on that FB site.
There is not much bickering on the site, but just enough to keep it entertaining!

[crazy4cats]

Hi Marie-
Did you just order them? Do they have grain? If yes, best of luck to your transition! It’s going to be harder on you than the dogs. Lol!😍

[InkedMarie]

Hi c4c I just ordered yesterday, grain inclusive.

I agree, harder on me!

[susan k]

Could you please copy the low taurine dogfood list from facebook and post it here? I’m not on facebook and don’t want to join, but I very much want to see this list. Thanks!

[crazy4cats]

It says in big letters for us not to share or reproduce it. Unfortunately, you’d have to join. It is a closed private group at least. It’s actually not a list, but a data table with real people and dogs’ names listed on it.

Which food are you curious about?

The worst offender is Acana by far, followed by Zignature. Both are full of legumes!

[Dennis T]

Yes I think I’ll definitely ask that group about it. That one document that shows the taurine levels of dogs on certain is interesting (Acana was not looking good!). I scrolled to the Canidae part and some of theirs wasn’t good either but I noticed their Grain Free Pure Sea limited ingredient diet seemed to be just fine on that list. It wasn’t highlighted in yellow or anything. This confused me because the ingredients in that food does contain peas etc. If the fish formulas for some reason are okay, I might try to get my girl on the newest formula of Canidae (Grain Free Ancestral Raw Coated Fish). However, I’m still cautious and waiting for some more info.

[susan k]

Hi crazy4cats, thanks for your reply. I’m interested in Wellness Core Original kibble. My dog was taurine tested (I posted his excellent test results here). Potatoes and peas are on the ingredients list, but Koby is in terrific health and he is happy and healthy on his Wellness Core kibble (which I supplement with no-salt deli turkey and people food (he gets a little of what I eat, as long as I know it’s safe for him — a bite or two of chicken or salmon, a bit of banana, an occasional lick of fat-free yogurt, things like that). He’s also a Cairn terrier, and they haven’t been on the predisposed list. I just want to keep on top of all of this and of course I want to know if any dogs on Wellness Core original formula are having problems.

[Susan]

Hi Susan k,

like Crazy4Cats posted you cant copy & paste NO information it’s private…

Wellness Original formula you’re feeding was not on the list, NO Wellness formula’s were in in orange…the formula’s in Orange = DCM or CHF w/o low Taurine; “diet related”..

Are you on F/B join the “Taurine-Deficient Dilated Cardiomyopathy” group
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1952593284998859/
Then look in their “Files” for
“2018-09-07 Copy of Diet and Taurine.pdf”
then you can read all the info that’s been collected…..

everything is all good, also there were NO Cairn Terriers on the list..

[pitlove]

Susan K-

One of the biggest concerns with this discovery is that breeds NOT commonly known to get DCM or be genetically predisposed to it are coming up with it.

I know that your dog got back good taurine levels (as of right now), but is it worth the risk when there are many quality grain inclusive foods out there?

[crazy4cats]

Hi Susan k-
I’m not sure that the data table is a great representation of all dogs and all foods yet. So far, they are mostly getting goldens reporting their taurine levels because the original study started out with that breed. There are not a lot of entries for Wellness yet. Don’t know if that means there are not a lot of people feeding it, or just not a lot of people who feed it have submitted test results.

However, it does show trends of foods that are heavy with legumes and potatoes that are being manufactured without the guide of veterinary nutritionists on staff are consistently testing low in dogs of all breeds who have eaten then over a period of time.

I have two lab/golden mix dogs which both breeds seem to be showing up with DCM. I won’t be feeding grain free ever again unless absolutely necessary and then would be one made by Purina. I don’t think Royal Canin ever followed the band wagon with the grain free foods?

As Pitlove stated, “why take the risk”?

[susan k]

Susan, thank you so much for filling me in — I’m happy to learn that Wellness Core isn’t on the list and neither are Cairn terriers.

Crazy4cats and Pitlove, thanks for your concern. But here’s why I’ve stuck with Wellness Core so far: first, the data are still not clear and we simply do not know what is causing the increase in DCM. Some dogs that have it have perfectly normal taurine levels, some are NOT on grain-free foods, and most, to date, are still Goldens and a handful of other breeds. I am still feeding Wellness because the “big brands” being recommended by most vets contain questionable additives, including various preservatives that may be carcinogenic (remember, DCM isn’t the only problem — there’s been an apparent increase in cancers in dogs in recent years), as well ingredients that may come from China (remember the melamine scare), and and inert bulk ingredients like “dicalcium phosphate,” which is a cheap, inorganic form of calcium that isn’t bioavailable. Calcium buildup in arteries is bad for the heart, of course — this is why people with high blood pressure take calcium channel blockers. I’ve looked at all of these high-end big-manufacturer brands and right now I don’t see anything I can enthusiastically feed my dog. In other words right now there is NO GUARANTEE that Purina ProPlan or any of the other high-end foods from big manufacturers is ANY BETTER than grain-free Wellness (which DOES have a nutritionist on staff and is AAFCO approved, if that means anything).

Since my dog is absolutely fine right now, since we simply don’t have answers to the DCM controversy in dog food yet, and since Wellness Core is free of questionable additives, I am waiting for more data before making any decisions. I would home-cook using BalanceIt powder and BalanceIt recipes (I have done that with previous dogs) but there’s actually no guarantee that that’s a better alternative, either, and my vet (I live in Madison, and my vet is at the UW-Madison School of Veterinary Medicine) isn’t a fan of home-cooking. Unfortunately, DOG NUTRITION IS STILL A BLACK HOLE.

It is my hope that DCM issue and the controversy it has stirred among dog people will force pet food manufacturers to make changes in the near future. In the meantime I am keeping an eye on the issue, and I may switch to the BalanceIt method of home cooking if there is no resolution in the near future — simply because at least I get some control over what my dog is eating if I cook for him.

[crazy4cats]

Fair enough. I just want to make sure as many dog owners are aware as possible. Best of luck to you and your pup.

[Christine W]

Susan! thank you so much for the Wellness info. I feed them Core reduced fat.

[JENNIFER O]

I am currently transitioning all of my dogs to grain inclusive foods. I plan to rotate purina pro plans and royal canin. Fromm had too many suspect ingredients.

[Patricia A]

Am I reading this chart right? It seems Zignature Kangaroo recipe is showing more DCM cases? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TNru_WWKf0TbZ8aYBgOJjsh4cziKZwdA6GEbXTUFJ_M/edit#gid=582733736

[crazy4cats]

Yep! Scary, scary stuff. Looks like 9 cases of DCM from a very small sampling of Zignature’s taurine and echo results. Not good. Would not touch any of theirs or Champions’ formulas. That google sheet isn’t supposed to be reproduced. We need to get people to check out the FB group to see it and get the correct information along with it.

People- Buy food that is manufactured by companies with full time board certified veterinary nutritionists on staff, that do research and feeding trials! Companies are using new untested ingredients in our dogs’ food that look good to human eyes, but are not good for dogs’ hearts!

• This reply was modified 5 years, 6 months ago by crazy4cats.

[Patricia A]

Honestly don’t know if if there is any validity to this . Can companies which were losing money when the grain free craze started be this sinister ? Ummm…of course.

👉👉🔴Consider who funded the scientific research and Advertising Press Release. 👇🤭http://vetmed.tufts.edu/tufts-at-tech/donors/ (Hint: The list is similar to the same companies who fund the research at UC DAVIS Veterinary Medicine)👇
The following companies gave to the UC School of Veterinary Medicine of more than One Million Dollars Each?

Mars Incorporated

Hill’s Pet Nutrition

Morris Animal Foundation

American Kennel Club

American Kennel Club Canine Health Foundation

Bayer Corporation
What do these companies have to do with dog food?
Mars Incorporated = PEDIGREE®, and ROYAL CANIN®. Mars Petcare is also home to the brands NUTRO®, GREENIES®, SHEBA®, CESAR®, IAMS® AND EUKANUBA®. Mars Petcare is the world’s biggest veterinary health group with hospitals such as BANFIELD®, BLUE PEARL®, PET PARTNERS®, and VCA® – making Mars the largest veterinary operation in the North America. (They need sick dogs to survive)

Hills Pet Nutrition – Science Diet, Prescription Diet, Ideal Balance, Healthy Advantage

Morris Animal Foundation – supported by The American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine (ACVIM), PetCo and Blue Buffalo Foundation.

American Kennel Club Canine Health Foundation – in partnership with Eukanuba, a grain based dog food owned by Mars Corporation

Bayer Corporation- owns Monsanto the largest GMO seed supplier in the world. Forty percent of the world’s genetically modified (GM) crops are grown in the U.S., where Monsanto controls 80 percent of the GM corn market, and 93 percent of the GM soy market and is heavily invested in grains. Responsible for all the major companies that sell farmers the stuff they need to grow crops: seeds, pesticides, and fertilizers. Also makers of flea & tick chemicals known to have life threatening side effects.

Here’s the complete list of doners to UCDavis Vet Med

https://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/giving/recognition-and-resources/honor-roll

Here is the link to the report funded by some the above donors: http://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2018/06/a-broken-heart-risk-of-heart-disease-in-boutique-or-grain-free-diets-and-exotic-ingredients/.

Taurine Plain Talk.

Scientific research shows lack of taurine can cause DCM in some dogs.
No, grain free diets are not the cause.
Lack of Taurine is the cause.
Taurine comes from muscle meat protein… not grains.

[crazy4cats]

Hi Patricia A-

Maybe this link will help answer some of your questions:

http://taurinedcm.org/taurine-dcm-faq/?fbclid=IwAR0_Dg1_8xYsghSeOXLYeDgIN_YMU_0w8eAHxQXUs4JSTlQ7f4rDdvnd1ck

BTW, brown rice and corn gluten are excellent precursors for taurine. They contain the amino acids necessary for dogs bodies to synthesize taurine on their own. I guess formulating a balanced pet food is rocket science after all. I’ve learned so much in the last few months since this warning came out. I hope others are open to it as well.

Also, I think it would be great if some of the smaller companies would conduct research themselves or donate to universities for research as well. Most of them don’t pay for full time veterinarian nutritionists either. Many people think that the big companies are greedy. But, some of the smaller companies are charging just as much more for their foods and are not donating any or employing experts!

Hope this helps!

[aimee]

Hi Crazy4cats,
Good Link!

I think it is important to note that not all diet responsive DCM cases test low in taurine meaning other factors likely in play.

Also somewhat surprising to me was the very high percentage of dogs on raw diets that tested low in taurine. Based on the small sample size it appears that simply feeding a lot of meat/organ doesn’t correlate with normal taurine levels. I guess this shouldn’t be too surprising considering the Wynn study: the cats were fed raw ground rabbit and many developed cardiomyopathy.

Biological systems are complex!

[Anonymous]

Has anyone heard of any cases of taurine deficient DCM in dogs eating a grain free, potato-based,prescription veterinary diet, such as the novel protein diets made by RC (PW, PD, PV) and Hills (d/d line)?

[aimee]

I haven’t heard of any dogs on any of those diets having diet related DCM.

[Bobby dog]

I have not heard or read of any either. Rx diets have been researched extensively prior to hitting the market. If you are feeding one I would reach out to the company if you have concerns.

[Author]

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