[joanne l]

I wanted to start this thread b/c I was researching a lot and you always hear by products are bad. However, I don’t think they are anymore b/c chicken byproducts are really muscle meat, lungs, spleen, trachea, carcasses, feet ,etc.. It may mot sound good to us but for a dog it is healthy I think. Dogs are not humans and I am rethinking this through that these are very high in taurine. Now I know also people say meat by products don’t say what animal it is. But why do they assume it is road kill or dead animals? How do we know if a company don’t use diseased animals anyway?? Even when they list “deboned chicken” how do we know if it was already diseased or roadkill? For allergy purposes I won’t use meat by products, b/c of not knowing what it is. This was interesting to me and I want other people’s thoughts on it. Not to mention about Kangaroo and Venison…these meats are not killed on a daily basis even for us to eat. What makes you think that dog food companies are using quality venison and kangaroo? I don’t think they are killing good healthy Kangaroo’s if you think about it. Venison could be road kill. Deer get killed a lot on highways. Hunting season for deer is not on a daily basis it is not aloud so how are they getting fresh deer all the time?? I don’t think any dog food companies are putting in prime cuts of meat anyway no matter how much it costs. These were things I been wondering about. And yes you hear a lot of bad stories about dogs getting sick, but dogs get sick even eating high quality dog foods too.

• This topic was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by joanne l.
• This topic was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by joanne l.

[haleycookie]

There’s a couple issues here. First deer and kangaroo are farmed. Kangaroo in say zignature dog food comes from Australia where it is killed for human consumption as well. Deer is also farmed. As well as elk, bison, etc here in the states. I’ve met several elk farmers.
as for by products if they were really those organs you mentioned don’t you think big companies would list them seperately as smaller companies do just to give consumers price of mind? You can even call and ask those companies what their “by products” consist of and you’ll never receive a straight clear answer.
Another thing you mentioned was how by products are high in taurine. Well let’s think about that for a minute. Kibble is basically a burnt crisp ball with 0 nutritional value before it is covered in a vitamin mix. So really whatever taurine was in those by products before isn’t really there anymore after the rendering process and then the extrusion process kibble goes through.
And the last thing is smaller companies that focus on nothing but dog and cat nutrition are going to be much more trust worthy as there’s no conflict of interest when it comes to sourcing meats. Giant companies such as Colgate, mars, and nestle will however will have a greater interesting in higher profits while lowering cost of production. More so then smaller brands would ever.
And you’re right. Dogs aren’t humans. They’re dogs. Carnivorous animals extremely related to wolves. They’re also family members. And idk about you but I would want to feed my family members the healthiest diet possible.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by haleycookie.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by haleycookie.

[joanne l]

I am sorry for upsetting you, It was just my thoughts no real answer. However, you have a good point as well. That’s why I wanted other peoples opinion on it. Thank you very much. I found this article. pretty interesting. https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23086541 Everyone that know me knows I am a animal lover period. I would not want to hurt any animal or feed them slop. This is just a thought nothing more. Like I mentioned before I have heard dogs getting sick on high quality dog food too. I do want the best for my dog. Anyway on a funny note I buy fresh steak and salmon for my dog and my husband said and “we eat hotdogs” LOL.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by joanne l.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by joanne l.

[joanne l]

I just read that the cost of farm deer is extremely high. I guess good dog food companies are willing to spend that kind of money.

[joanne l]

Oh and by the way what do you feed? b/c I was looking for a good food and you seem really educated on good quality food. I am not really up to bar with food and I started this so I can get some insight on food ingredients b/c I am just thinking things threw I am not saying I am right. These are just things I was curious about.

[Susan]

Hi Joanne,

Yes FRESH raw byproduct meats are great if you’re a raw feeder, but when By Product meats are in pet foods I dont think you really know what your dog or cat is really eating as you’ll see if you watch the video Ive posted maybe it will explain a bit more…

It’s best if you buy some raw beef hearts lightly cook them & slowly introduce a little bit of heart as a daily treat, I’ve been thinking of doing this as treat thru the day for cat & Patch, I always see all the organ meats reduce in supermarket, 1/2 price around 50c to 1$….
Best not to cook the raw organ meats, cooking destroys up to 2/3 of the taurine content in foods. So lightly cook..

Beef heart is incredibly rich, so feed it as an organ meat not a muscle meat in a raw diet.
Only add about 1 oz per meal for a 70 lb dog. Do not overfed it as it can cause diarrhea When you cook the raw organ meats it destroys up to 2/3 of the taurine content in foods.

Poor Patch learnt the hard way when he ate heap of very big Liver Treats, when I first rescued him…the rescue group had given me the liver treats & Patch decided to steal them & eat the small bag..He had diarrhea all night the poor thing…

By Product meats these Pet Food Companies get & use wouldnt be separated so the good bits are probably mixed with all the rotten bad meats & other things..
Chicken would probably be the best in dry kibbles & in wet can foods, to fed & be fresh & a good qualitity…also chicken is very cheap…so these pet food companies wouldnt really need to buy by product chicken…. if you watch the link below I’ve posted Dennis the Whistle blower talks about saving 2 live chickens after then survived the chop at the meat plant… same thing happened when my X husband brought home a chicken that he found running out onto the street of a factory she missed being killed, I gave her to a neigbour & her daughter took her she lived out her days on a farm & was a good egg layer once she became healthy…
I asked a Hills rep one day, why does all the Hills premium & vet diets only have Chicken as the meat protein, (this is in the Australian Hills formula’s), she said cause Chicken is the easiest meat to digest & chicken is cheaper….

Watch this video when you have a spare 8mins
Dennis a whistle blower tell the 7.30 Report ABC whats in our pet foods we feed our pets
“Plastic and other bits of rubbish put into pet food, insider reveals”
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/plastic-and-other-bits-of-rubbish-put-into-pet/9887958
When you see ingredient list that read like this
Meat and Meat meals (chicken, beef, lamb and/or pork)…..

But I cant understand how are these meat meals separated into Lamb Meal, Chicken Meal, Kangaroo Meal, Salmon Meal, Pork Meal… I know we have about 5-6 big Meat Plants in Australia maybe some of these other big meat plants sell the separate meat meals to pet food companies, Here’s another video, when pet foods were tested they were not the meat proteins it said in the ingredient list.. If Patch could eat a raw home made or cooked diet, Id feed a home made raw this way I know what he is eating..
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6020431/

Your question about Kangaroo meat, about 1yr ago a representative from Zignature was answering people questions on DFA Review Zignature section cause Anon101 had taken over Zignature Reviews & wreaking havoc, I thought I will emailed Zignature & I asked Zignature who does Zignature buy their kangaroo from, a man from Zignature email me back, he said Zignature sends over their own American hunters to kill our wild kangaroos & they bring back the dead wild kangaroo’s, straight away I knew this is a BIG lie you cant come into Australia & kill our wild life then take it out of the country?? He’s been watching too many Crocodile Dundee movies, lol
The only company that exports raw Kangaroos is “Marco Meats” in South Australia or the only other way Zignature would get their Kanagroo is to buy it in meal form which I think this would be the best way for dry kibbles then the pet food companies add Lentils or chickpeas to push the protein % up so people think they’re getting more kangaroo meat…

There’s a really good Kangaroo dry pet food called “Vetalogia” Kangaroo Adult, I know Vetalogica was lauched Superzoo 2017 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
you’d be getting more Kangaroo meat cause its Kangaroo meal then Chicken meal, contact the American Vetalogica- https://www.vetalogica.com/
ask for samples, just say your dog is very fussy eater & does Vetalogica have sample you can try & see what they say..
I tried the Vetalogica about 3 months ago, I think Patch can’t eat Tapioca he starts dragging his bum on carpet rug & scratching when he eats any dry kibble that have tapioca in it them….. here’s the ingredient list for the Vetalogica Kangaroo Adult formula.. https://www.vetalogica.com.au/collections/vetalogica-naturals-grain-free-dog-food/products/copy-of-vetalogica-naturals-grain-free-lamb-adult-dogs

[crazy4cats]

Hi Joanne-
In my opinion, the big dog food companies are the safest to go with. They have the most money to do the most research, own their own manufacturing facilities, have the best safety protocols, employ certified veterinary nutritionists, do the most testing and buy the top ingredients.

Do not feed Acana or Zignature. They are full of legumes and show very poor results on Dr. Stern’s taurine data table found on the taurine-deficient FB group’s page.

Good,luck!

[anonymous]

science based information http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2018/08/grain-free-diets-and-heart-disease-in-dogs/
(excerpt below, click on link for full article)
Bottom Line
Nutrition and metabolism are complicated, and the exact relationship between dietary composition, breed genetics, and other factors leading to DCM is not yet clear. It is too early to say with certainty whether the diets are the primary cause of DCM in these dogs or whether other breeds may also be at risk. However, it is clear that the idea behind the health claims for grain-free diets is speculative at best and very likely untrue. Extreme diet fads hardly ever turn out to be a good idea in people, and the same is probably true for pets.
If you are feeding a grain-free diet, there is no need to panic. If you own a golden retriever or other breed that has been shown to be develop DCM in the past, it makes sense to talk to your vet and potentially have taurine levels tested or other diagnostics done depending on the circumstances. The diet you are feeding may be perfectly fine, but it is also probable not any better than any other diet with more conventional ingredients, and there is now some small indication that it may place some dogs at greater risk for this preventable disease.
The links above to the FDA and UC Davis Vet School will provide more information.

Also: https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/choosing-the-right-diet-for-your-pet/
Animal by-products (excerpt below)
In addition to grain, animal by-products have become “dirty words” on the ingredient list. Although not necessarily appealing to humans (particularly in the USA), the definition of a by-product in pet food is a part of the animal that is not skeletal muscle. This includes organ meats and intestines (not intestinal contents). AAFCO specifically excludes hair, hooves, horns, hide, manure, etc… as acceptable by-products. So in reality, by-products are perfectly healthy and full of nutrients. And you can be sure that a wild wolf or mountain lion is eating “by-products” in nature.

[I love Dogs 2]

@ Anon101

I click on your link you posted above Sketvet blog & there is NO science based information, where is this reseach, I did not see any?,
all I read was Skeptvet opinion & other peoples screened post Skeptvet screens and if he agrees with what people write then Skeptvet post their post..
Last time I looked Skeptvet is not a Scientist or Nutritionist, he’s a vet blogger that post what he thinks is correct but is not always correct..

Oh, I did find your posts “L”

I always add a little boiled chicken meat or boiled egg to the kibble plus a splash of water.
That way I know they are getting protein for sure.
I went back to a grain inclusive kibble (Fromm Classic Adult) for now to be on the safe side.

[joanne l]

Thank you everyone for all the input. I really enjoy communicating on here, everyone seems so helpful and knowledgeable. Oh, and Susan that is funny what Zignature told you. That is a joke. As far as kangaroo goes I don’t feed it and I don’t feel comfortable about it either. First they are so cute and second I don’t think it would be of good quality for the dog. I would like to feed venison, but I am Leary about the quality of that. The reason why I say this is b/c these meats are not cheap so how good can the quality be in dog food?

• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by joanne l.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by joanne l.

[anonymous]

Recent response to a concerned poster https://www.facebook.com/zignaturepet/

Hi ******!
Zignature is aware of the studies and articles that have surfaced in the last few months regarding Dilated Cardiomyopathy (DCM) Including the study released by the FDA. In these studies, it states that most of the cases of DCM come from recipes who are plant-based diets with peas, legumes and lentils as the main ingredients and low in Taurine. All Zignature recipes are meat based. The first ingredient in our recipes is always meat followed by a meat meal. We offer 65% meat vs 35% plant-based protein in all our recipes except Zssential. Zssential offers 70% meat vs 30% plant-based protein. Taurine is not an essential amino acid for dogs, which means that healthy dogs can synthesize it internally without requiring it as part of their diet. However, dogs that have certain medical conditions or are predisposed to taurine deficiency, may require taurine supplementation. Those dogs require a specialized diet that should be prescribed by a veterinarian. The highest amounts of taurine are typically found in dark meats and seafood. Based on our consumer feedback, we here at Zignature, decided to add a Taurine supplement to our recipes. There has been .2% Taurine added to every recipe. Our Bags will reflect the addition as you should start seeing Taurine stickers on our bags. We hope you found this information helpful. If you have any further questions, please let us know.

[anonymous]

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2016/07/more-nonsense-from-holistic-vets-about-commercial-therapeutic-diets/ (excerpt below)
Here’s what one nutritionist I’ve talked to has say about by-products:
A by-product only means that it was not the intended main product of the industry. It gives no indication on nutrient profile, digestibility and bioavailability, etc. Many people who dislike by-products will happily buy wheat bran (a by-product of the baking industry). Moreover, by-products vary according to country and culture. Liver, an excellent source of nutrition, is considered a by-product in the US because skeletal meat is the primary product of slaughtering an animal and many people do not eat organs any more. By-products can be excellent ingredients in pet food and it would be wasteful (and terribly self-centered) to not use it to nourish humans or animals.

[joanne l]

Good point Anon, I agree. Some internet stories may say bad things about it, but for a dog or cat it is nutritional. Also, as I mentioned earlier how do we know even when a company lists “chicken” we don’t really know if it was diseased or dead or even worse. When a dog food company has a USDA inspected food label on the bag then I would trust that it is good. Some companies can tell you it is not this or that but backing it up with a stamped label on the bag is different story. Now some companies will say it is USDA inspected plants, but that is not what I mean. It must say USDA inspected FOOD, then you know what your really getting.

[anonymous]

@ joanne l
Your post does not make sense. I think you are listening to too many sources, some not reliable. The AAFCO https://www.aafco.org/ does the best they can to regulate what goes into dog food.
When you go out to eat at a restaurant, do you know what the quality of the food you are eating is?
No. As long as there is enough salt and butter added to it, most people think it’s wonderful!
And they pay big bucks!
PS: At the end of the day, I have found that having a vet that you trust and that knows your dog (annual exams, at least) is the best person to advise you in these matters.

[joanne l]

Why does is not make sense?? Even though they are putting butter and salt on it, it is still USDA grade this has nothing to do with flavor. I stated this post as a joke, b/c a lot of internet talk says if they don’t list the meat then it is road kill, diseased animals, etc. My point is that just b/c it says chicken, beef, venison. etc…how do you know it is not road kill, diseased animals as well? That makes sense. Everyone that I know says it makes sense. I do agree about asking your vet and not regular people. This is just a conversation piece.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by joanne l.

[anonymous]

The AAFCO https://www.aafco.org/ does the best they can to regulate what goes into dog food.

Discuss your concerns with your vet. Best of luck.

[joanne l]

Anon I just read it. it does not regulate dog food. It makes sure it is complete and balanced.

[anonymous]

Compete and balanced. Exactly! Thank goodness. 🙂

Much better than homemade and raw, right?
Who checks that?

You can always pay an independant lab $$ to have the food tested, if you so desire.
Or how about a consult with a veterinary nutritionist? A veterinarian that specializes in nutrition.

Otherwise, you could just go by the recommendations of your vet and hope for the best.
That’s what works for a lot of us.

[haleycookie]

Raw diets can be complete and balanced. I know shocking! But it is possible to do a little bit of research and even get with a nutritionalist to make a raw diet. A diet that is most correct and healthiest for a dog.
By the way it’s ludicrous to say big dog food companies are buying the best products lmao. Don’t make me laugh. They’re buying the cheapest most processed antiobiotic and hormone filled garbage they can get their money hungry hands on so they can spend 5$ making a 40-50 lbs bag of food and resell it for 20-30 dollars. sorry but no. The trials they do also are incredibly limited and they take into consideration that the dogs are alive after the trial and that’s it.
Raw and slightly cooked balanced diets are the way to go. There’s no way anyone will make me believe for any reason a burnt ball of artificial vitamins with over cooked ingredients are better. I know not everyone can have the time to make their dog and cats food which is why i will still suggest other types of food. But I refuse to recommend low quality ones from untrustworthy companies.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by haleycookie.

[Spy Car]

I’m of the opinion that if most of the items classified as “by-products” were fresh and unspoiled that they’d be great ingredients in dog’s rations, and I seek out many of these items myself for my dog’s PMR meals.

The problem is how “by-products” are treated at slaughterhouses. They are treated as waste, often kept in hot offal trailers where they spoil and become contaminated and unwholesome and are consequently condemned for human use. But these contaminated and spoiled parts can still be used in dog food if this waste is sent to a rendering facility first, where any remaining nutritional value is degraded by cooking beyond recognition.

It isn’t the ingredients themselves that are a problem, but industry practices that allow for the use of highly contaminated by-products.

Bill

[joanne l]

Wow, I am shocked at what certain pet companies do. If I had the money to make dog food, I would have the best I can get for these pets, but I know I would have to sell it at a high price. But you get what you pay for. But I don’t have that kind of money to go in business. Well I guess the conclusion of this thread is by products are good for dogs, but the quality of them is upmost important. It is nice to hear other people’s opinions on this.

[Acroyali]

Couldn’t agree with Bill (Spycar) more.
Anon, who checks your own diet to ensure it’s “complete and balanced”, anyway?

[Spy Car]

The AAFCO standards allow for dead dogs and cats to be ingredients in pet food. No really. They also allow dead, dying, downed, and diseased animals to be used in pet food.

They allow condemned parts from slaughterhouses to be used in dog food and even allow pet food companies to say that these spoiled ingredients come from “USDA inspected plants” despite being condemned.

As long as spoiled parts are rendered, almost anything goes.

In short, AAFCO standards are a joke and a fig-leaf that covers the atrocious practices of the pet-food industry (which in turn controls AAFCO). AAFCO certification misleads consumers into believing the product inside bags has some stamp of approval that means a great deal. That is false.

About the only thing one can count on is that foods that claim to meet AAFCO standards will get the calcium to phosphorus mineral balance right. Other than that, the worst sort of crap can (and does) go into these “foods.”

Bill

• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by Spy Car.

[Spy Car]

What I find funny is people who (falsely) accuse others of an irrational disdain for “by-products,” but who won’t feed fresh, wholesome, and inexpensive raw chicken feet as an excellent dietary source of glucosamine, and who instead turn to expensive supplements that make his or her dog sick.

Bill

[Spy Car]

@joanne l, as I mentioned in a previous post any average consumer would believe that a pet food that claims its ingredients come from a USDA inspected plant would mean that those ingredients “passed” USDA inspections. But that’s not the case.

Under AAFCO rules ingredients that are specifically condemned can be (are regularly) used so long as they are sent to a rendering plant. These condemned parts can then be touted as “coming from USDA inspected plants” without requiring to mention that they were rejected by inspectors. This sets up a deliberate misinterpretation on the part of consumers and is in all intents and purposes a “legal lie” and a fraud on the consumer.

Sorry, but that’s the truth of the situation.

Bill

[joanne l]

I know just b/c it say USDA inspected plants does not mean good food. Like I said before when a dog food company can stamp USDA inspected food than it is good, but we will never see that. Even the best companies can’t say that either. But we all have to put our trust in someone. Some people, including myself, can’t feed raw diet. I have a big dog. If I had a little dog I would hands down. But what I do is, I feed home cooked and part dry food. So I do half and half. That’s what I did for my other dog to. As far as dry food goes, I feed the best and the middle of the road. In my experience I had problems with both. The expensive food was good until I got a bag and it was different in color and my dog got diarrhea. The middle of the road food was good until I got a bad batch. So I don’t know anymore. Oh, and my other dog ate fresh chicken and beef liver and hearts etc. and it is cheap, but this dog I have now does not do well with fresh by products. So I give him fresh meat and fish.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by joanne l.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by joanne l.

[joanne l]

I forgot to mention my neighbor, he is 80 yrs. old very nice man, he is not up to par like us with dog food. But he told me that no dog food is regulated like human food. So he said to me even the best food is still not like our food. He said this to me b/c I was telling him about all the dog food brands they have today, he was amazed, b/c in his day there was only Alpo and kenelration. So that’s how we started talking about it. And I wanted the best for my dog and that’s when he said no dog food is going to be good as human grade UDSA inspected. He was even skeptical about the good brands I mentioned. He feels that they are not going to give animals good stuff b/c today food is to expensive even for us. That was his thoughts. What surprised me about him is that he said dogs should be feed fresh meats and bones. Then he said “do you see the teeth a dog has”? I said ya. He said they are meant for tearing their food not eating mush or dry food. He is pretty wise man and he makes me laugh. Just wanted to share that with everyone.

[joanne l]

I was thinking, maybe the reason dog food company example: Purina pro plan, just lists chicken by products and they are not specified is b/c maybe each batch are different. Example: one large batch may have liver, hearts, spleen and another big batch may have feet’s, trachea, muscle meat etc.. Sometimes it could contain brains and guts. if that is the case they would have to constantly change their packages. This maybe why it is not specified not sure but it is a good guess. Also, consumers might say yuck and not buy it. It may sound bad to us but for dogs it maybe good for them. Dogs need different nutrition than us. Now I am not saying cooked food is not good, matter a fact it is great b/c it is fresh. This is just talking about these by products. And of course our food is much better b/c it is prime cuts and regulated. That’s a different story.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by joanne l.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by joanne l.

[pitlove]

Spy Car-

I know you are capable of making a well thought out post, that is logically sound with good reason. So what happened with your post about the way by products are treated at manufacturing facilities? It was thoroughly disappointing. One can not simply just state something as you’ve done with literally zero proof to back it up and call it bible. Please, if you are going to out right slander the large pet food companies like that, provide a link that can, beyond a shadow of a doubt, provide clear and obvious evidence for such a statement.

Shouldn’t be too much to ask of someone that prides themselves on being enlightened about pet nutrition ey?

[Spy Car]

@pitlove, with due respect, there is no slander here on my part. It is perfectly legal and within AAFCO guidelines to send condemned animal parts including (but not limited to) animal by-products to rendering facilities to use in dog food.

I’d suggest doing your own research (after which you might wish to offer an apology).

An article published by this forum makes the same points I did:

“However, what makes some by-products edible (and others not) isn’t just a matter of what they are but how they’re handled after slaughter.

For example, giblets not refrigerated immediately after slaughter but stored for up to 24 hours in a hot offal trailer cannot be sold for human consumption.

Yet they can still be legally used for making pet food.

Likewise, dead-on-arrival animals or other condemned parts that have been declared inedible and unfit for human consumption can still be used for making pet food.”

/choosing-dog-food/animal-by-products/#fnref-3142-3

You really shouldn’t accuse others of “slander” when the practices of the pet food industry are widely known.

Bill

[pugmomsandy]

@joanne, I feed GreenTripe.com brand’s Tripe, Xkaliber or Tripe/Organ Meat Blend as my by-products.

[joanne l]

Bill, I just read that the FDA don’t regulate dog food like ours, but they look to keep it safe. So what you are saying is food that is unsafe. Now I am not stupid and I know that dog food is not regulated. But I would think they would try to keep it safe I hope for our pets. Anymore it comes down to dollars and cents for most of these companies. I contacted a reputable dog food company, not saying any names, this man was very honest, he said our dog food comes from USDA inspected facilities, but the animals get what ever is leftover that humans don’t eat, he said not that it is bad for them he said it is good for them. Now that is honesty b/c he is the manager of this pet food company. Who would admit that? I don’t want to mention what company b/c I don’t want to start trouble. I would guess that is the way most of them do it. If it was done any other way we could not afford dog food. It would be 150.00 a bag if it was primes cuts. I guess we have to trust these companies that make our pet food. What else can we do. We can read ingredients all day long but that sometimes don’t mean anything when it comes down to quality and do we really know for certain that it is quality.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by joanne l.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by joanne l.

[Spy Car]

@joanne l, when someone from a pet food company says “all our food comes from USDA inspected plants” please understand what that phrase does (and does not) mean.

Saying the items came “from” a USDA inspected plant DOES NOT mean those items passed inspection. In fact, the pet food companies (can and do) use items that have been condemned for human consumption as a regular practice. You need to understand how deliberately misleading the current labling laws are.

Items that have been condemned by USDA inspectors are regularly sent to rendering facilities where those ingredients are rendered (cooked for a long time under pressure) until pathogens in the often-spoiled items are killed.

Are spoiled meats that are loaded with pathogens “safe” after they have been cooked under pressure beyond recognition? I guess the question rests on the definition of “safe.” I accept the process likely kills of the pathogens (and degrades nutritional values).

From my point of view, it makes sense on a host of levels to feed dogs on parts that are not going to be used in the human food chain. Most of these ingredients would be highly nutritious for dogs if they were handled in a safe and sanitary fashion (which often isn’t the case) and it would be bad for our environment and our pocketbooks to waste otherwise nutritious left-overs that can be used to feed dogs.

The issue isn’t about using potentially nutritious by-products or non-prime cuts, it is about how those by-products and other parts are dealt with at slaughterhouses (and afterward). If ingredients are allowed to be used in dog food despite being spoiled (so long as they are rendered) there is no disincentive to bad slaughterhouse practices.

Likewise, there is no disincentive when pet-food companies are able to claim ingredients come “from” USDA inspected plants when there are no requirements for them to state those same ingredients may have been condemned during inspections.

The rules and labeling claims are controlled by the pet food industry, which controls AAFCO.

I’d like to hear what the guy who claimed: “Our dog food comes from USDA inspected facilities” would say (under oath) if asked if that means all those ingredients “passed” inspections?

Those familiar with pet-food industry practice know the truth about this deliberately misleading claim, one that while currently “legal” is an unethical use of language designed to deceive consumers into thinking “from” means “passed.”

Bill

[aimee]

Hi joanne l,

I’ve come to pretty much the same conclusions as you. Any animal based product can be mishandled (muscle or by product) so it seems there is no basis for avoiding by product due to handling concerns.

Personally I buy foods from companies that source from integrated and not independent rendering plants.

[Spy Car]

@Aimee, are you unconcerned that any or all animal parts can be (and are) regularly mishandled?

If “integrated” pet-food corporations send condemned and contaminated parts to their own own rendering plants for use in their own product lines, what advantage is there over sending similarly condemned and contaminated parts to independent rendering plants?

I’m at a loss to see what protections a consumer has in integrated processing.

And it seems like fatalism to disregard the mishandling and consequent use of spoiled by-products in pet food because meat parts are similarly mishandled, contaminated, and used in pet food.

Bill

[joanne l]

This is probably and unfortunately true. Like I mentioned before pet food is not regulated. That’s were it gets tricky. Pet food companies can say anything, I am sure some of them use better quality of course, but it is still not regulated. If it were it would cost an arm and a leg.

[Spy Car]

@joanne l, I don’t think is too much to ask that slaughterhouses treat ingredient intended for pet food be treated respectfully and not to become grossly contaminated and spoiled by pathogens. Such facilities already have the capacity to treat processed meat and offal safely and without adding unreasonably to the end cost.

So I disagree that pet foods that were not allowed to become putrid would cost “an arm and a leg.”

Bill

[joanne l]

what I meant was it is too costly to have it regulated by the FDA. Annaneat is a great company and I trust them. I spoke to them and they told me their food is human grade, but to have it regulated by the FDA, like our food is, would be very costly with licenses and stuff like that. He said a bag of food 30lbs would cost at least 200.00 There are a few honest companies and Annameat is one of them.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by joanne l.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by joanne l.

[Spy Car]

@joanne l The USDA is already in the meat processing plants. To allow pet food companies to claim that products that USDA inspectors condemn “come from USDA inspected plants” is a scandal.

Processors have the capacity to prevent meat-products from being grossly contaminated by pathogens. They have proven to have the capacity to do so without imposing unreasonable costs. it isn’t asking too much that ordinary care be taken to keep dog food ingredients safe and sanitary.

Right now the rules allow almost any fetid meat-stuffs into pet food as long as it is sent to a rendering facility first. The idea that the only choices are between using contaminated wastes and $200 bags of kibble is a false dichotomy. Processors can keep food ingredients wholesome without breaking the bank as we see in the human food supply.

Bill

[aimee]

Spy Car,

I just don’t see it as valid to say “don’t feed by product, it can be mishandled” while at the same time accepting muscle tissue for feeding which can be handled similarly. Both muscle tissue and “by product” fall under the same regulations.

In regards to an integrated vs independent rendering, people voice concerns that roadkill, expired meats, dead zoo animals, bloated dead livestock, offal left in trucks in the elements for days etc are in rendered meals I don’t disagree that this can happen and that some companies may accept this product for pet food.

In an integrated plant my understanding is that outside sourcing isn’t accepted, so no roadkill, dead bloated livestock etc It also makes no sense for me to think that at an integrated plant material is left sitting for days before being rendered.

You seem to be operating from a belief that most material is regularly mishandled and “spoiled”. I can’t say that I’ve ever seen any data that supports or refutes that.

[Spy Car]

@aimme, who made the argument not to feed by-products because both by-products and meat products destined for dog food are often condemned and contaminated? Not me.

Seems like you want to defeat a straw man.

I’m for the inclusion of most items classed as by-products in pet food. I’d also like all parts used in dog food to be wholesome and unspoiled.

There are no regulations stopping an “integrated” rendering plant from accepting the same sort of “roadkill, expired meats, dead zoo animals, bloated dead livestock, offal left in trucks in the elements for days” as is common with independent rendering plants. There is no mechanism to prevent such practices.

Claims that “all ingredients are from USDA facilities” is one of the worst abuses in the industry as it allows them to claim condemned foods are “from” inspected plants.

You seem to have more faith in these companies than I do.

Bill

[aimee]

Spycar,
You wrote ” I don’t think is too much to ask that slaughterhouses treat ingredient intended for pet food be treated respectfully and not to become grossly contaminated and spoiled by pathogens” What makes you think this isn’t already occurring? I think it likely in integrated plants but much more challenging to achieve in independent plants do to the types of materials they collect and the transportation involved.

Sure there may not be a law that prevents an integrated facility from accepting random sourced material but it makes no sense to do so and I don’t know that it is occurring at any frequency if at all.

In regards to by products you wrote: “The problem is how “by-products” are treated at slaughterhouses. They are treated as waste, often kept in hot offal trailers where they spoil and become contaminated and unwholesome and are consequently condemned for human use……”

You are painting with a very broad brush and implying by products are treated differently then muscle meat. At least that is how I read it.

In regards to “often kept in hot offal trailers”, have you found data which reports a percentage of material used in pet food is handled in this manner? What do you consider often?

[pitlove]

@SpyCar

Again, I am disappointed in your post. What you posted is not proof. I have already done the research myself and my conclusion has not changed. I was looking for new information that I may have missed during my own studies. What you have provided is not worthy of an apology.

Your statements are most certainly slanderous, especially since you are posting them to a public forum where they can be viewed by any lay person. I’m sure in college you were taught the importance of finding credible sources when citing. This rule doesn’t change in real world application.

If you are unable to provide proof that by-products are being mishandled in the way you speak of, I will be forced to believe your statements are only fueled by emotion and bias hatred of the pet food industry. Not fact.

[Spy Car]

@pitlove,

And I, in turn, am disappointed that you are accusing me of being a criminal–as slander is an actionable crime. So I guess you are also claiming the Administrators of this forum are also guilty of slander, as the article that I linked to made similar points was authored by Dog Food Advisor.

I don’t personally enjoy being defamed for reporting what is allowed under AAFCO regulations. The president of AAFCO admitted on camera that it was completely possible that dog food could include dead pets under the regulations. The current regulations also permit the use of contaminated/condemned ingredients so long as they are rendered.

Accusing me of being fueled by “emotion and bias hatred of the pet food industry” is a personal attack and the opposite of the truth. I’m dismayed by what is permissible under current regulations and labeling laws. This dismay is based on reason.

I’m disappointed you’d make false characterizations and personal attacks in response to legitimate criticisms of the pet food industry.

Bill

[Spy Car]

@aimee, I don’t have independent knowledge of what percentages of their ingredients pass inspections as “human grade” food and what percentages are contaminated/condemned or are from non-USDA inspected sources. Do you?

It seems to me that pet food companies are not at all open to providing this sort of information to customers and that they will even use the claim that all their products “come from USDA inspected plants” when that phraseology covers using contaminated/condemned parts that fail inspections.

Wouldn’t you agree that it is wrong to mislead consumers to say products “come from USDA inspected plants” when they have actually failed inspections? Doesn’t that seem misleading and like an attempted fraud on average consumers who don’t realize the deception?

Bill

[Mike Sagman]

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