[Airseabattle]

I recently purchased the book RAw and Natural Nutrition for dogs ( revised version) by lew Olson. I plan to switch to cooked food once the nupro all natural supplement for small breeds arrive. My problem is that my dog immediately vomited ( or regurgitated) the raw ground beef and chicken liver I gave her. She is a nine month old chihuahua who has been on royal canin mini breed puppy kibble for all of her life. Is this normal for dogs to do at first? Also, how long can I leave raw meat out in her pen?

• This topic was modified 6 years ago by Airseabattle.

[anonymous]

There is no reason to feed raw when you consider the risks. http://skeptvet.com/Blog/category/nutrition/

https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/choosing-the-right-diet-for-your-pet/ (excerpt below, click on link for full article)
Raw diets are another popular option on the market today. Studies have shown that 20-35% of raw poultry and 80% of raw food dog diets tested contained Salmonella. This poses a health risk for your pet, but also for humans. This is especially true for children or immunocompromised adults, whether exposed to the raw food directly, or the feces of the pet eating the raw food. Additionally, there is increased risk of other bacterial infections and parasitic diseases when feeding raw diets. And the bottom line is there is no reason to believe raw food is healthier than cooked food.
The numerous dietary choices for your pet can be daunting but if you pick an AAFCO approved food made by a manufacturer with a long track record, odds are good that you will find a suitable food for your pet. Most of the large pet food companies employ full time veterinary nutritionists and have very high quality control standards. That is not to say that a small company cannot produce nutritious and high quality food, but you should check out their website if it’s a company that is not familiar to you. Take the time to research, and ask your veterinarian if you have specific questions or concerns.
Please understand that this article is meant to provide basic dietary guidelines for healthy pets. If your pet has specific health issues, then your veterinarian may make specific food recommendations, which may include special prescription diets.

[Tyrionthebiscuit]

What was the temperature of the food? Did the dog gulp too fast? How much liver? Ground meat and liver only is unbalanced. I have her book and find her recipes wonderful. My advice would be to make her cooked recipes without the supplements. Much better than just raw ground meat

[Airseabattle]

I’m not sure of the temp. It was meat I had in the freezer for a month which I then defrosted in the fridge. Same with liver. No, I’m not solely feeding her just ground meat and liver. She also had a raw chicken wing and hard boiled egg with shell and shredded cooked chicken breast. Not all at once but spread out. Been eating that for days. Ground meat I introduced today and Only the ground meat made her vomit first time around. I tried again in smaller quantities and this she held down.

I personally do not trust aafco and flat out refuse to feed kibble as a main source to my dog. My last chihuahua lived to be 16. Most of her life ( I adopted her at six years old) she ate 4 star and up rated kibble. She STILL died of chronic renal failure due to diet. My vet is a wonderful woman but she’s so pro science diet/ Hill.

after two months of putting my baby on that hill renal diet she slightly went down in value then out of nowhere escalated to stage 4 and died a miserable , slow death. I spent thousands trying to fight the inevitable death. I even tried to get her a 20k kidney transplant from UC Davis just to be told there was nothing that could’ve been done and had a fed her a better diet things may have been different ( less kibble, carbs, grains, etc, more good quality protein) Never again.

Ps. My vet knows of my hatred of kibble and supports a home cooked diet but I’m not sure about the raw diet. I’m only doing raw while I wait for the supplements. Why are you against adding supplements? You say you like her recipes but Dr Olsen said in the book that the vitamins are depleted after cooking so supplements are a must…

• This reply was modified 6 years ago by Airseabattle.
• This reply was modified 6 years ago by Airseabattle.

[Susan]

Hi,
your girl probably vomited her raw food as it might have been too cold, my cat vomits up her raw mince sometimes if its too cold, so now after I take the raw meat from fridge I put in microwave for a few sec to take off the chill, she hasnt vomited her raw meal again……
Raw diet is the easiest for a dog & cat to digest, raw diet is easier then digesting a cooked meal & dry kibble, raw food has enzymes making it easier to digest but as soon as you cook food you kill enzymes vitamins etc, a dogs digestive tract is short, made to quickly digest raw meat then move from stomach to small bowel then large bowel so no bad bacteria starts breeding, the dogs short digestive tract is not made to digest all these dry processed kibbles, this is why so many dogs are having so many health problems now…
if you dont know how to balance a raw or cooked home made diet its very easy as you learn you could look at feeding dehydrated freeze dried raw diets, there’s a few freeze dried diets on the market now, look at “Ziwi Peak” air dried & their can foods, here’s link send them email & ask for samples… https://www.ziwipets.com/
also start buying tin sardines & tin salmon in spring water, drain the spring water out put in a small air tight container in fridge & add 2 spoons to one of her meals or as a small meal a day for her omega oils for her skin, coat, heart, brain, joints, bones etc also add 1 crushed egg shell to 1 of her meals a day….
It’s very easy feeding a raw diet once you start raw is easier to make then cooking meals & your feeding your dog what she is ment to eat a raw diet…
Dogs are healthier & live longer when feed a raw diet, then dogs who are feed processed dry kibble, quoted by “Dr Peter Dobias”….
Do you follow “Rodney Habib”on his face book page & his “Planet Paws”page? has always post really good info, also follow “Steve Brown” & “Dr Peter Dobias” ….

[pitlove]

Hi Airseasbattle-

You said: ” I tried again in smaller quantities and this she held down.”

I think you just answered your own question. She may need smaller meals to transition over to raw/homecooked.

Also BalanceIt.com is run by boarded vet nutritionists and has recipes for homecooked meals. Some are free, some you would have to pay for. You can also use the site to do consults with them, but there is a fee of course.

[Airseabattle]

Susan,

Thank you so much for taking the time to post such an insightful and very helpful post. I do have a lot to learn, and your post really helped me out a lot. I did read to feed her sardines but didn’t know to save the water until you told me to 🙂 .i will def follow those pages you recommended. I have the book “Raw and Natural Nutirion For Dogs” by lew Olson. It teaches how to balance dog food and I’ve been doing my best to follow the guide.

The book (as well as many others) suggested feeding a variety of foods. Does switching Around the types of ground meat ( rotating between ground chicken, ground turkey, etc) count as variety? Also, is there a reason to include whole/ unground meats in diet versus simply sticking to ground meats?

And yes, the food I have been feeding her has been very cold. Straight from the fridge after defrosting cold. I didn’t know feeding food that is to cold would cause her to get sick. She seems to really love cold food. She will gulp down cold food. when I give her the now occasional cooked food ( whole hard boiled egg that has been pulverized in food processor) warmed to room temp using the microwave, she will let the food sit for hours before eating.

[Airseabattle]

Hi pitlove,
I completely agree. Now that I give her smaller quantities at a time, she has been doing fine. I think maybe she was inhaling her food. She hasnt had diarrhea or any signs of an upset stomach which I am very pleasantly surprised about. She always had so much energy but now she seems to have even a little bit more. This was a puppy who spent her first nine months solely on kibble. I adopted her at nine months 🙂 thank you for telling me about balanceit.i have been looking for a dog nutrionist but ur Davis won’t give consults by the phone so balanceit is very helpful.

[Airseabattle]

I just read that there is salt in the sardines I bought. Would the water from that be healthy to mix with my puppy’s food? Considering there’s salt included, Is feeding her canned sardines daily healthy? She’s just a five pound chihuahua. The canned sardines at my grocery store all have salt. Should I feed raw sardines instead?

• This reply was modified 6 years ago by Airseabattle.

[anonymous]

In my opinion, no.
All canned foods have salt, preservatives and chemical crap in them.
Keep canned foods to the minimum, once a week maybe.
Also, raw fish of any type can be fatal for a dog.

If you are listening to the homeopathic vets, good luck.

Any science based traditional vet would advise you not to go down this road……

[anonymous]

“i have been looking for a dog nutrionist but ur Davis won’t give consults by the phone”

Exactly. I would not trust any vet that would prescribe diet or treatment without examining my dog.
Some veterinary nutritionists will accept a referral from your vet, review the history and advise accordingly, for a fee, of course..

[Airseabattle]

Noted. I will stop feeding canned sardines. Have you ever owned a purebred chihuahua, fed exclusively on a kibble diet. If so, how long did it live and what did it eventually die of? Mine lived to be 16 and died of chronic renal failure. She had horrible dental health throughout her life. Despite brushing and having her teeth cleaned by vet every other year. this is partly because i could not on my own access her under the gums issues.

I don’t want to have to keep putting my dog down for dental cleanings to have to remove the under the gum build up that results from eating kibble. That puts severe strain on the kidneys, as you already know. Like I did with my last dog who died of kidney disease. issues from periodontal disease is a major reason how dogs end up with heart, kidney , etc diseases. Even traditional vets admit that. I’m hoping to avoid that with a raw diet. Everyone I know who feeds raw have dogs with beautiful teeth and gums. I haven’t met an older dog raised on raw but do any of you with one have any testaments to the dog’s oral health?

My current vet is a traditional vet but hasn’t oppossed home cooked foods. We haven’t discussed raw but so far I am very pleased with the results. Anyone who has every watched a beloved family member die of renal failure should be scarred for life and not want a repeat.

[anonymous]

Yes, I lost a dog to renal failure related to Lyme disease. Ugly.
Did every thing I could do to stop it, sq fluids every day and all.

Lousy teeth tend to be genetic especially with small breeds. On average most have needed a professional cleaning and extractions once or twice per lifetime despite the best food, daily dental brushing helps (see youtube for how to videos)

I have had dogs that lived to be over 15 years old that ate mostly kibble and canned food. I have also had a dog come down with cancer at a young age (9) despite being on the very best diet, exercise regimen. This dog had beautiful teeth and never needed a professional dental cleaning (medium size breed)

Genetics. A good diet helps, but it doesn’t prevent these things.

[Tyrionthebiscuit]

Sardines in water can be found but they’re not as common. If you do come across them, they’re a fantastic add in. You can use the search feature on this page and find all of the times canned sardines were discused on DFA

[Airseabattle]

I found some in just water. However, it’s from the same brand and in almost identical packaging as the last can I used. Only difference is that this new can doesn’t include salt in ingredients. One has to carefully read the labels since apparently they just mix them together when shelfing. It’s my fault for assuming that the salt contained in first package was from salt water

[anonymous]

Age 17 is not realistic. Age 12 to 15 is more like it, and that is with good genes and the best diet and care. Most of my dogs were/are pure breeds. AKC, and all that bs.
Btw, often the paper work that accompanies a dog from puppy mills is not always accurate.

Good luck with the raw thing. Don’t take this the wrong way, but make sure you have the 24/7 emergency vet clinic’s number, directions and how long it will take you to get there taped to your fridg. Oh, make sure you have an active credit card. It can get pricey.
That’s where feeding raw took me.
Good luck

[Airseabattle]

Genetics leaves an indivual more susceptible to a condition but doesn’t gaurantee it will occur. I am very confident that my last dog’s teeth were caused by her diet which led to her health issues and ultimate demise. Therefore, I cannot in good faith, feed kibble. Thus far, my new pup is thriving on her raw diet.

She is young and healthy. This isn’t some older dog with compromised health. Fortunately, I have the resources to carefully monitor her and treat her for any issues that may arise as a result of feeding her raw. If things go wrong I’ll immediately get her treated and warn others. However, I’m confident nothing will go wrong as long as I carefully make sure she follows a well balanced raw diet. I am mixing her daily portion of ground meat with nupro for small breeds to help get it right.

I’m sorry about your dog. You never mentioned the breed. Mine was a purebred chihuahua from top show lines . I mention this because I read mixed breeds tend to live longer. I don’t think it’s fair to compare a mixed breed to a purebred. Still I’m doing all I can to ensure my new family member lives to be at least 17 and to make sure her quality of life is better than my departed angel.

[Airseabattle]

These aren’t dogs from some backyard breeder or pet store. They’re from a kennel that I have closely watched from a breeder who I have known for a decade. I met her through a referral from the chihuahua club of America (cca). If the last one lived to be 16 on Kibble (where kidney diseases caused by diet took her) , I’m not sure how 17 could be seen as unrealistic for a dog on a better diet.

Of course, I have the emergency pet hospitals number on file. I’ve had it since my last dog took her tragic turn. It would be irresponsible for any pet ownernot to have an emergency hospitals contact on file. An emergency can happen at any time. Whether or not you feed raw. My dog is just a baby and she’s already has appointments with specialists to ensure what happened with my last baby doesn’t happen to her. I’m very committed to prevention and catching everything early.

I’m not sure what caused you to be anti raw but it would help if your documentation into raw and the set backs caused by it were listed on here. Also, and I don’t mean this to be mean, but you should not assume everyone you talk to on here fails to do research. I’m surprised you thought I didn’t know much about akc, the breed parent clubs, or how to properly screen for breeders.

• This reply was modified 6 years ago by Airseabattle.

[anonymous]

I have shared my experiences at this website. They have a user friendly search engine button if you are interested.

My idea of research is consulting a board certified specialist or getting another opinion from a veterinarian that has actually examined my dog, not dr google.

Made that mistake (raw food) in the past with dire results. The only online site I trust now is http://skeptvet.com/Blog/
The rest are just opinions.

I wish you and your pets the very best.

[Airseabattle]

I already mentioned that dog has been seen by a vet and specialists Have been brought on to monitor her. So Where are you getting that medical guidance will come exclusively from google and forums?

When I click your name, I don’t see a threads that show you being open to and actually feeding a raw diet then chronicaling your dog’s health decline as a result of raw diets. I just see plugs for a website. But Thanks for the link. I’ll take a look. I love to study new material. If things go wrong with raw and I need to go back to kibble, I’ll def look into following suggestions from it. Good luck to you.

• This reply was modified 6 years ago by Airseabattle.
• This reply was modified 6 years ago by Airseabattle.

[pitlove]

Hi again Airseabattle-

I think you will really enjoy BalanceIt.com. It’s a great website. If you decide to use their consultation service they can contact your vet and get any records needed to formulate a proper diet for your dog.

Also if you do end up staying on raw here is a link to a blog that I like. I feel this couple has successfully done a Prey Model Raw diet with their Staffordshire Bull Terrier. They have a YouTube and Insta gram page as well. http://mojoandfriends.blog/dog/

They have information about Mojo’s diet and other dog related things as well. They are also super nice people and if you comment on their Insta gram page are really nice.

As far as the debate on genetics vs environment goes… I will say that I disagree that pure bred dogs are unhealthy. Especially when purchased from an ethical, responsible breeder. These breeders are health testing these dogs, and spaying/neutering dogs that are not fit to be in their breeding program, so as not to put bad genetics into the population. Mixed breed dogs of unknown origin in my opinion are just as likely to be a walking health problem and vet bill, as a pure bred dog from a BYB. I’d personally rather a pure bred dog whos lineage and parents, grandparents, great grand parents, etc health I know. Kudos to you for supporting a responsible breeder and doing your homework on the breed/breeders.

[Airseabattle]

Pitlove,
Thank you very much for the links. I liked the mojo videos and watched two of them …so far. I’m now following them as I feel they can be a great source of information. They seem pretty progressive. I also found balanceit to be useful. Initially I had some problems finding the consulting section on balanceit. However, I eventually found it.

I am very excited about the idea of working with a pet nutritionist. So again, thank you for that. Have you used any of the consultants listed? Do you recommend any of them in particular? Also, do any of them work with raw diets? The ones I’ve viewed seemed to be geared towards those who want to feed a home cooked diet. Did any of you raw feeders work with a nutritionist?

Thanks again

• This reply was modified 6 years ago by Airseabattle.

[pitlove]

I have not personally used the consultation services myself no. I do know certain things change when the meats are cooked, so you could not say, take a recipe they have up on that site and just use the same values but feed it raw. You may be able to contact Dr. Susan Wynn for a consult. She does deal with raw and is also a veterinary nutritionist.

Glad you liked Mojo’s videos. I do find her owners to be good sources of information personally.

[Sloane K]

I think raw diets are perfectly fine. I mean – think back to when dogs didn’t have access to commercial food (i.e. kibble) as they do now… what did they eat? They hunted prey, killed & ate what they had killed.

But for anyone considering a raw diet for their pet, I would consult a professional first before trusting someone’s advice on a forums website.

Just my .2 cents.

[Wendy M]

That may be too much too soon for a little guy. The liver should come later. It’s very rich. Start with chicken, thigh or breast meat. Don’t grind it, make her work for it by chewing. Maybe a wing (REMEMBER CHICKEN BONES ARE FINE IF NOT COOKED). We’ve been feeding leg quarters on a regular basis for years. I used the RAW FEEDING website, & RAWCHAT.

[Wendy M]

I totally disagree with anon101. A dog’s digestive system can handle Salmonella & many other bugs humans can’t. After all think about dogs in the wild-They ate most anything-the older the better! If you buy your food from a reputable store & handle it like you would your family’s food there shouldn’t be an issue.
I see she posted a link from the SPCA. Sorry but they get a lot of funding from dog food companies & support them (BTW-I support the SPCA).
I too distrust the AAFCO.
I have been feeding 2 standard poodles raw for their whole lives. Never had better teeth or coats. Very small amt. of stool since ALL the food is digested.
Bottom line-please do what works but don’t give up on raw. It’s the most appropriate diet for your dog.

[Wendy M]

To SLOANE K-good idea, but finding a REPUTABLE specialist who will even discuss raw feeding is a daunting task!!

[Wendy M]

I have to wonder if your dog’s health problems are the result of raw feeding.

[Airseabattle]

Health problems??? My child doesn’t have health problems. She’s an eleven month puppy. She was checked prior to raw and after and both times was given a perfect bill of health. Don’t use my baby for anti raw propaganda. She was vomiting because she was scarfing the food so fast. When I broke up the food with a fork she was fine.

[Susan]

H

[Wendy M]

Sorry AIRSEABATTLE-I didn’t mean to disparage you at all. I am a proponent of RAW

[Sloane K]

Wendy M-

Very true, most veterinarians are similar to Western doctors in that all they are concerned with is $$$. They want to run this test & that test on your pup, prescribe medications, etc.

As the raw food industry grows more & more it will create a need for more types of these specialists so that they aren’t so scarce.

[Author]

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