[Angela S]

I have been giving my dog greenies for a couple of years now, since she’s not crazy about having her teeth brushed. They seem to do a pretty good job at keeping her teeth nice and clean. I noticed that pedigree dentastix are significantly cheaper. Not sure if i should switch to dentastix to save money or not.. has anyone used both? and how do they compare? or if you just used dentastix, how are your dog’s teeth? what do you think of dentastix?

thanks!

[anonymous]

Quote: “Not sure if i should switch to dentastix to save money or not.. has anyone used both? and how do they compare? or if you just used dentastix, how are your dog’s teeth? what do you think of dentastix”?

They don’t do anything, except maybe freshen the breath a little. Save your money for professional cleanings as recommended by the examining veterinarian. Keep your eye open for inflammation, difficulty eating and other signs of pain or discomfort.
Go for annual checkups. Do the best you can to brush her teeth once or twice daily, this helps but does not prevent periodontal disease, some of it is genetic.
In my experience, most dogs may need at least one or two professional cleanings per lifetime, even with daily brushings. Sometimes you get lucky and they don’t…..

Hope these articles help
http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?s=dental
http://avdc.org/AFD/category/facts/
http://www.bostonherald.com/lifestyle/2018/07/dental_x_rays_help_vet_care_for_dog_s_teeth

• This reply was modified 5 years, 8 months ago by anonymous.

[anonymous]

PS: Will she chew on a raw carrot? One of my dogs loves them. You can freeze them to make them even more crunchy.
Don’t get baby carrots, they are bleached/chemically treated and a choking hazard due to their size.

[Tyrionthebiscuit]

http://www.vohc.org/VOHCAcceptedProductsTable_Dogs.pdf

I personally didn’t like greenies. They were a bit too soft, in my opinion. But they are listed in the link I posted. I prefer the Prodent Plaque off chews. There have been actual studies done on how the ascophyllum nodosum helps fight against plaque. But, every dog is different.

[Angela S]

thank you all. my dog does like carrots. i’ll try freezing them and start trying to brush her teeth more often.

[crazy4cats]

Hi-

Off that VOHC list that Tyrion posted, I like the DentaLife Daily Oral chews for my dogs.

I have also fed the Pedigree Dentalstix. They often have them at Costco and they are a good price! My dogs are seven and have not had to have their teeth cleaned yet. I try to give them some type of dental chew every night. I switch between the cheaper and ones and the vohc approved ones. I’m not crazy about greenies either, but do buy them now and then. They are EXPENSIVE!

Give the Purina chews a look too. They aren’t quite as expensive.

You could also buy the VOHC approved dental kibble and give it the your dog as a snack. I do that with my kitties.

Good luck!

• This reply was modified 5 years, 8 months ago by crazy4cats.

[Spy Car]

Skeptvet, who often plays fast and loose with the truth, at least acknowledges in an article linked above that 70-80% of dogs have periodontal disease by the age of three. That’s appalling.

What he leaves out is that this outrageous condition is directly related to the junk-food diets that commercial pet-food companies market as dog “food.”

Dogs fed PRM style diets with 10% soft-edible bone have clean healthy teeth unlike kibble fed dogs who almost all develop serious dental problems.

It is all in the unnatural carbohydrate-based diets they consume.

Bill

[aimee]

Spycar,

Not a lot of research but so far what has been published hasn’t shown a protective benefit of a “natural” diet. The following is an excerpt from “Impact of Nutrition on Dental issues in companion animals” Chandler 2014

“Proponents of natural foods or of feeding raw bones have claimed this will improve the cleanliness of teeth in pets; further claims are sometimes made that feeding commercial pet food contributes to the high prevalence of periodontal disease in domesticated cats and dogs.
However, a study in foxhounds fed raw carcases, including raw bones, showed they had varying degrees of periodontal disease as well as a high prevalence of tooth fractures (Robinson and Gorrel, 1997).
The skulls of 29 African wild dogs eating a “natural diet”, mostly wild antelope, showed evidence of periodontal disease (41 per cent), teeth wearing (83 per cent) and fractured teeth (48 per cent; Steenkamp and Gorrel, 1999).
A study in small feral cats on Marion Island (South Africa) that had been eating a variety of natural foods (mostly birds) showed periodontal disease in 61 per cent of cats, although only nine per cent had evidence of calculus (Verstraete et al, 1996).
In a study in Australia of feral cats eating a mixed natural diet there was less calculus compared to domestic cats fed dry or canned commercial food, although, again, there was no difference in the prevalence of periodontal disease between the two groups (Clarke and Cameron, 1998)

These studies show a natural diet, or one containing raw bones, does appear to confer some
protection against dental calculus, but not against the more destructive periodontal disease. There is also the risk of fractured teeth”

[Spy Car]

Aimee, these are apples and oranges comparisons.

There is no quantified measure of what’s called “varying degrees of periodontal disease” in the Foxhounds study and the risks of tooth injury and wear present in the Foxhound study and the Wild African dog (LOL) study is why smart PRM feeders feed their dogs soft edible bone (like chicken bones) that are very gentle on teeth and present a near-zero risk of tooth breakage as opposed to whole animal carcases of animals like antelopes or cattle.

So the point of comparison on tooth damage is a false one. Nothing is worse than cherry-picked science to promote fear-mongering.

Anyone with a brain can see the dramatic differences in dental hygiene and tooth health between a dog eating a PMR diet with 10% soft-edible bone in its diet and those of a kibble fed dog. There is no comparison.

PMR fed dogs are common. There is no need to reach for skulls in museums for African wild dogs to fairly compare a PMR diet with kibble diets in companion dogs.

That said, the African wild dogs had about half the incidence of periodontal disease compared with three-year-old kibble fed dogs (and three is a shockingly young age for a 70-80% incidence rate). One can presume the incidence rate only goes up for kibble fed dogs as their ages advance. How old were the African wild dog skulls in the museums? LOL.

IMO these arguments are a misuse of scientific studies. The benefits of a PMR diet with soft edible bone are as plain as day. As is the atrocious rate of periodontal disease in kibble fed dogs.

No comparison.

Bill

[anonymous]

Why does my dog need dental work if I only feed a raw diet?
“Raw food diets are often based on uncooked meats, bones and vegetables. Some people report that their dog’s teeth appear “cleaner” and have less tartar when fed a raw diet. This is probably because of the increased chewing action which does provide some benefit. However, the incidence of fractured teeth increases in dogs that are eating bones. Periodontal disease can also develop hidden underneath the gum line, even without tartar on the teeth, where it will not be seen until your pet is anesthetized for a full examination and dental cleaning”. excerpt from: https://vetdentistrynm.com/about-us/faq/

[Spy Car]

Again, a PMR diet does NOT include vegetables that contain carbohydrates and that negatively impact dental health.

PMR dogs fed soft edible bones are not at risk of tooth breakage and wear.

These are twisted arguments that don’t apply.

Bill

[Acroyali]

Avoid professional dental cleanings, feed RMB’s, rec bones when applicable and huge chunks of raw green tripe.

Problem solved.

Save your money on these expensive “plastic” dental chews. Watch a dog eat a greenie or denta stick. They bite of huge chunks and swallow them whole. Hello, intestinal surgery as some here like to blame on raw ;D
Raw vegetables and carrots and such are no better. Dogs chew off huge hunks and swallow them whole. RMB’s are much tougher to gnaw through and are eaten much more slowly. Fed large. A small dog should get a chunk of food much larger than their head. With tripe, it’s boneless and is an excellent food for teeth cleaning meals.

I wouldn’t waste my money on these plastic treats shaped to resemble toothbrushes when most dogs chew through them in 3-4 bites and swallow. How is that doing a damn thing for their teeth?

[Acroyali]

In response to the latest skep vet crap…
I did a search on their site awhile back. This skep vet character constantly named other vets…GOOD vets…by name and attempted to trash them. Along with their borderline ballistic rantings…not a site for me until they take a Xanax and chill the hell out.
Dr. Karen Becker is a skep vet favorite in trashing.
I did a search on Dr. Karen Beckers site and found NOTHING in almost 11 years in her trashing this person by name, only a few people mentioning what a jackass this skepvet is in the comments section and one person failing at pimping the skep vet blog.

Rule #1 in business–never trash your competition by name unless you want to look like an ass.
As a business person…skepvet fails this, ten fold.
Too bad. I’m sure their website has a lot of good info but when they trash other vets by name (they don’t even limit their rantings at “other vets/holistic vets” and leaving it nameless), their credibility goes down the toilet to me and others.
A good vet doesn’t need to trash other vets by name. They can simply share their findings and leave it at that.

[crazy4cats]

The Purina DentaLife chews are not soft and rubbery like many of the others. They are porous with little air pockets. That’s why I really like them for my two large dogs. Not to mention I just ordered a big bag thru Chewy for only $6.19. They are listed on: http://www.vohc.org/accepted_products_dogs.html

We do give our dogs bully sticks to gnaw on once in a while too. Yuck! 😀

[aimee]

Hi Spycar,

It appears that you have made a classic mistake. No one disputes and the studies support that cats and dogs given lots of chewing opportunities via a “natural” diet have less calculus. So yes, anyone can see that the crowns are cleaner, but it is what is unseen that equates to oral health. Periodontal disease, unless very advanced, isn’t seen. It takes probing and radiographs to “see” the attachment loss or bone loss.

You have very strong opinions but you haven’t provided any data. Where is the data that PMR dogs have significantly different degrees of periodontal disease then commercial fed dogs? To “see” periodontal disease the dogs need to be anesthetized and each tooth accessed on all sides for attachment loss or bone loss. To date to my knowledge this hasn’t been done.

But independent of tooth damage and wear we do have multiple studies that all conclude the same thing. Dog and cats eating natural diets have significant amount of periodontal disease. In the feral cat study the prevalence was the same. In the African wild dog study only bone change could be evaluated so the prevalence of periodontal disease would be under reported as the earlier soft tissue changes couldn’t be evaluated.

Furthermore if carbohydrate negatively impacted dental health then we’d have expected to see that reflected in the data. Yet that is not what was seen.

Starting with a conclusion and ignoring data contrary to your conclusion while clinging to your unsupported beliefs is not what science is. In science one make reasonable conclusions based on available data. In this case the reasonable conclusion is that a naturel diet doesn’t prevent or protect against periodontal disease. As further data becomes available that conclusion may or may not change.

[Spy Car]

Hi Aimee,

I think that it is you who had made the classic mistake. You take the absence of evidence as evidence. That is not a valid approach.

Unfortunately, veterinary studies are almost always funded by pet food companies and they have no interest in proving the superiority of a PMR diet in maintaining healthy teeth vs a commercial diet. So there are no studies.

Many will then attempt to argue that “there are no studies that show…” as if that proves anything (when all it shows are lack of studies).

Meanwhile, there are many thousands of well-networked PMR feeders who raise dogs, see with their own eyes all the advantages (which include, but are not limited to, cleaner teeth) and we take our dogs to veterinarians for examinations and get great reports on oral health.

In contrast, 70-80% of kibble fed dogs have periodontal disease by the time they are three. Three-years-old. And it only gets worse. Feeding kibble diet is a virtual guarantee of developing periodontal disease.

It is not the case with a PMR diet. We don’t see that in our community. A community made up of avid dog trainers and some of the most experienced handlers of elite canine athletes. People who know dogs.

It is not true that dogs with periodontal disease won’t show signs as all one need to do is look at the gums for signs of inflammation and health to have a pretty good clue.

The “studies” you referred to are not relevant.

As to tooth damage or tooth wear, it is certainly possible to cause wear or fractures/breakages by feeding hard weight-bearing bones from large animals. That’s why many PMR feeders (like myself) advocate for eliminating so-called “recreational” bones from the diet.

Soft-edible bones (like chicken bones) virtually eliminate both risks to teeth and impactions issues, but anti-raw activists like to focus on items I personally don’t feed as if that’s the only option.

Of course, the visible portion of the tooth is whiter in PMR fed dogs. It is the same at the gum line and below. My vet confirms this at examination time. No hint of the periodontal disease most kibble fed dogs have at his age.

I’m afraid that the improper use of non-germaine studies and the error of the absence of evidence as evidence has put you on the wrong side of gauging the reality of the dental health of kibble-fed dogs vs PMR fed dogs. You are simply dead wrong on the issue.

Feeding a PMR diet using soft-edible bones (while avoiding risky weight-bearing bones) maximizes canine dental health. The alternative virtually guarantees periodontal disease.

There are few areas in dog rearing, canine nutrition and health where the contrast between the dreadful consequences of kibble-feeding and a PMR diet is starker. Yet you attempt to accuse me of a non-scientific worldview? Please. Spare me.

You are on the wrong side of all the very clear evidence.

Bill

• This reply was modified 5 years, 8 months ago by Spy Car.

[Acroyali]

What Bill said.
Raw fed dogs usually have good dental health without the aids of dental chews and routine cleanings. I dislike putting my dogs under and aim to avoid it.
Non raw fed dogs, usually, do not have excellent dental health through a lifetime, unless provided with safe chews daily (RMB’s), and have owners diligent with tooth brushing.
A correct bite and a strong root structure plays a part, as our raw fed pet with a terrible bite and a terrible root structure often times have issues despite RMB’s, but it’s more rare than the regular dog with a sound bite/root structure eating kibble and chomping down Greenies.
No matter what we feed, when we evaluate a pup we look for a good bite. Parents must have a good bite, or at least the bitch if the sire is off site. When teeth fit together well, good dental health usually follows. When the jaw is over or undershot, poor dental health usually follows….with kibble fed dogs/cats, it’s a few years (or months with the little guys), with raw fed dogs, it’s a few years and (in our experience) less intense even with the little guys. It depends on so many factors.

I’ve seen dogs eat dental chews, Greenies, Denta-stix, CET chews, and they chomp off 1/3 of the chew, chomp, swallow, chomp off another 1/3, chew once, swallow, and then swallow the rest of the chew whole.
I cannot fathom how that does a damned bit of good for their dental health.
Our dogs plow through RMB’s and huge hunks of rubbery tripe and it takes them a good bit of time to do so. Their teeth are gorgeous.
Can I see what’s going on behind their gumline? Of course not. But I can’t see what’s going on behind the gumline of my own teeth and I can’t look inside my own body and detect cancers or organ malfunction, etc….
Sometimes, common sense prevails.

[pitlove]

Acroyali-

Totally off topic, but it sounds like you breed? If so what breed?

[aimee]

Spycar,
The evidence is there you just can’t see it. Periodontal disease can exist in the presence of clean crowns. You and your veterinarian are seeing clean crowns. Does you vet measure in mm the depth of sulcus at multiple locations around each tooth? Are full mouth dental radiographs taken? Until the mouth is fully evaluated you don’t know if that dog has periodontal disease.

A PMR diet is modeled after the presumed “natural” diet. We have evidence that dogs and cats eating a natural diet have significant levels of periodontal disease. At this time, based on the evidence, the reasonable conclusion is that PMR fed dogs will have periodontal disease at significant levels. This is the only conclusion that can be made. This is the conclusion of Chandler and other scientists.

I’d recommend that you contribute to the literature. Reach out to the thousands of well networked PMR feeders. Have each one chip in a few bucks and contact a boarded veterinary dentist to design and carry out a study on dental evaluations of PMR fed dogs and cats.

Until that is done the reasonable conclusion is that the PMR dogs and cats will not fair any better in regards to frequency and severity of periodontal disease then the dog and cats eating a natural diet that PMR is modeled after.

Until such study is done we have to use the data we have

[Spy Car]

Aimee,

Thanks for the laugh. I do my part for canine health by having my dog get regular exams. My traditional (and very outstanding) vet is exceedingly happy with my Vizsla’s condition.

She is particularly complimentary of my dog’s dental health. It stands in very marked contrast with what she generally sees, and she’s said as much.

And yes, in answer to your question, our vet does thoroughly probe and measure the space between the teeth and the gums looking for any pockets and does a thorough exam of the gums. She says the results couldn’t be more outstanding. There is no sign of periodontal disease.

You are defending a type of feeding where there is massive evidence of a problem. At the same time, you attempt to suggest that those who are feeding diets that promote good dental health (which is clear and demonstrable) are unscientific in their reasoning and you are not. LOL.

It is topsy-turvy, I’m afraid.

I don’t think self-funded studies started by self-selected individuals are the way science works. LOL.

In the meantime, I chose to believe my own eyes. There is no comparison (and I mean none) between the dental health of PMR fed dogs and kibble fed dogs. All the greenies in the world won’t change that.

We already know that 70-80% of kibble-fed dogs have periodontal disease by the time they are THREE. THREE YEARS OLD. That is a horrifying statistic and it can only get worse as dogs become seniors.

Sorry, but you are attempting to defend a losing proposition.

Bill

• This reply was modified 5 years, 8 months ago by Spy Car.

[anonymous]

Why don’t you two just agree to disagree? Geez, no one takes anything they read here seriously (I hope).
I would hope that they would check with a veterinary healthcare professional (in real life) that has examined their pet.

Silly and boring, share your opinions and move on….

Thanks, and I sincerely hope I didn’t offend anyone.

PS: I wish the moderators would get more involved, then maybe we would have some more activity around here.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 8 months ago by anonymous.

[Spy Car]

I’ve had a veterinary healthcare professional (in real life) that has examined my dog. That vet gives my dog glowing reports on his condition and has ruled out periodontal disease.

One of main reasons for the lack of activity here, in my opinion, is the disrespect shown towards those who have reasoned raw feeding makes sense. Especially when things like the superior condition of dogs teeth when they are fed PMR vs kibble is plainly evident.

To be told we are “silly and boring,” that nothing we say should be read seriously, or that our views are unscientific is grating. You claim to “sincerely hope I didn’t offend anyone” while being insulting in the extreme.

Bill

[aimee]

Spycar,

Please do not put words in my mouth. I’m not advocating for anything I’m just presenting the published data.

We agree that chewing activity such as that which occurs with a soft edible bone or with other chewing materials is beneficial to dental health. Other factors though also play a role.

Periodontal disease can not be excluded in an awake dog/cat as a complete exam can not be done.

You absolutely can self fund a study or even crowd source funding for studies. It is the design of the study that determines the value.

[Acroyali]

Hi Pitlove,

We are not breeding anything right now, but have done so in the past (purebred, for working purposes) and hope to again in the future. It’s NO easy task, but very rewarding!
(I don’t feel 100% comfortable sharing the breed for privacy reasons.)

[JoAnn B]

Bully Sticks: Why is my dog eating grass after eating a bully stick and sometimes throws up? Anyone have this issue.

[anonymous]

Obviously they upset his stomach and don’t agree with him, they are greasy and high in calories, highly processed, probably salty and I would be concerned about bacteria.
I assume you know what they are? Bull penises.

[Tyrionthebiscuit]

My guess would be the calorie content or fat isn’t agreeing with your dog. How big is he and how large of a bully stick are you giving him?

[JoAnn B]

They are 30 lb cockers, 11 yrs old and I give them 6 inch ones. I did stop and no more grass eating. I don’t know what to give them to chew for their teeth. I won’t give them rawhide or beef bones etc. Any ideas? I did buy greenies and they are OK with them but they are gone in 5 minutes.

[Tyrionthebiscuit]

I really like either tracheas or gullet sticks. There are also steer sticks which are usually a smaller version of a bully stick.

[anonymous]

Just brush their teeth once a day and listen to your vet when he recommends that a professional cleaning (maybe once or twice per lifetime).
No need to take a chance on those other things mentioned. Yuck!
Per the search engine:
/forums/topic/dental-chews-greenies-or-pedigree-dentasitx/#post-119699
PS: Have you tried raw carrots? Not the baby ones, they are chemically treated and a chocking hazard due to their size.

[haleycookie]

If yours dogs won’t let you brush their teeth I’d go with raw turkey necks. Maybe once or twice a week. Then attempt to brush the other days if you can. Softer treats like bully sticks, trachea, etc aren’t really hard or long lasting enough to make a difference. I also like whimzees and nylabones for dental chewing as well.

[Author]

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