[GSDsForever]

With loose stool problems like you’re describing, I will give a dog a something like cottage cheese and white rice, bland & highly digestible, for a few days. (You could also use boiled plain chicken breast for the protein.)

That usually will clear up whatever is going on. And it allows the dog’s system to recover. In fact, often you will not see the dog produced stool for a day or so, and then it will be minimum. Make sure the dog has sufficient water, whenever a dog has diarrhea (or vomiting).

I really doubt that your dog needs the specific Iams food, but that mix of foods from 2 Wellness products and Orijen (why the mix?) may not be right for your dog. Try a single recipe blander, simpler, moderate in protein & low to moderate fat diet for a bit. You need low residue, which is just another fancy way of saying highly digestible, but it doesn’t have to be a specific formula & brand with that in the title or be a vet diet. Watch the treats too.

Do not overfeed, underfeed until you get it right, divided between two meals a day (no free feeding), and watch to make sure your puppy does not eat too fast. Do not play/exercise/walk/have excitement for your dog within 1-2 hours of feeding, backwards & forwards. Feeding should be during a time of calm & rest.

A tablespoon of all natural plain yogurt, with live active cultures, can also help with problem stool/digestive upset.

It’s good that your vet gave probiotics, as the antibiotics destroy beneficial bacteria. I don’t typically jump right away to antibiotics and would encourage you not to do that either. They are overused, cause problems, and rack up your vet bills unnecessarily.

[GSDsForever]

Yes, of course — digestibility and good absorption of nutrients and such, unless . . .

*there is a substance put in there specifically to harden & shrink the stool as found in even some crappy formulas made by smart companies to appeal to customers, or

*nondigestible plant material is included in big quantities, either from large quantities to fill up a dog in a weight loss diet or to supply other nutritional benefits (but usually good brands will just limit the amounts in this case)

I remember Wellness’s Yogurt, Apple, & Banana Well Bars (treats) being very well liked by the dogs and producing GIANT stools — probably from high percentage of whole grains & fiber in them. We miss those treats, as they smell great!

• This reply was modified 10 years, 2 months ago by GSDsForever.

[GSDsForever]

PBI — and I think the Beams are awesome, OP! —

Why would higher amounts of fat and this protein-fat ratio matter for healthy dogs?

Why couldn’t the fat be higher unless there is a specific risk to the breed or individual dog, past history of problems (etc.)?

In a human diet, I understand even 40% fat to be fine when it’s a healthy fat for us like (just as a human example) primarily extra virgin olive oil, then some Omega 3, some virgin coconut oil. And I think of dogs as even better equipped to handle specific types of fat and in high amounts.

[GSDsForever]

Dori,

EPI is a known issue in GSDs that is genetic. Among well bred GSDs from good breeders of showlines, who breed healthy and correct animals, this and other health and structural problems are less common. None of my dogs I’ve ever owned have had it.

Among GSDs generally, among the “normal” population that does not test positive for EPI and show clinical signs associated with EPI, German Shepherds often have lower than average TLI scores in within the wide “normal” range compared to other breeds.

All of this relates to digestive enzyme activity in digesting their food, which is why the main standard of care treatment for EPI (and related malabsorption conditions) is

*a highly digestible diet with a highly digestible & high quality/biologic value protein source, moderate fat or high digestible fat, highly digestible carb source (like white rice)

*+ Viokase/pancreas (gold standard) or other enzymes added to the food and pre/probiotics

[GSDsForever]

Allergy & Food: I would try a single novel protein/novel carb source diet, including restricting all treats (can only be that protein/carb).

This needs to be something your dog has never eaten before, ideally both the meat/protein source and the carb(s). You feed this a long while and other monitoring (you and your vet), then slowly add back in one protein at a time. You see what makes the symptoms disappear in your dog.

Heartworm Preventative: There are only so many active ingredients effective in heartworm prevention. Heartguard would have the same ingredient as Iverhart, Ivermectin. Your other option is the main active ingredient in the formerly made Interceptor, which now only is available with other anti-parastitics in the formula.

You do need to use one of them, as heartworm is very deadly & brutal on a dog.

You can also have the main active ingredient compounded for your dog at a compounding pharmacy, in whatever form and flavoring/inactive ingredients (in case of severe allergy to what you’ve already tried) and exactly custom to the weight of your dog.

Dry skin & shampoo/conditioner — Please see my thread I already started on that topic here, asking for help.

[GSDsForever]

FWIW, to all following this thread . . .

I spoke to (Sammy Snacks) Ancestry and was impressed that this is a good small company making good foods. They gave great answers to the questions I asked and were very kind.

I would absolutely place trust in this company and will be adding their food line to what I would feed/recommend in the future.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 2 months ago by GSDsForever.

[GSDsForever]

I can’t get past even the warning letters and cease and desist notices from the FDA.

To not only have the FDA saying labs can’t detect the presence of the MAIN protein source in listed ingredients (duck, etc.), but then the Evangers response/press release following was just too much.

Who the heck even KNOWS what’s in those cans???

Mystery food, for your dog.

[GSDsForever]

All that stuff is powerfully anti-cancer (cruciferous veggies, brightly colored veggies) and full of vitamin C and beta carotene and bioflavonoids. . . .

I think it’s great your dogs want that stuff!

My experience is also that our dogs want what we’re having . . . plus if you’re cooking things and it smells good, then you’re eating it . . . . I’m a vegetarian, plus don’t have much “junk” in my home. So my dogs want stuff I have, & having tasted some, like the stuff!

• This reply was modified 10 years, 2 months ago by GSDsForever.

[GSDsForever]

Dori,

Oh how funny! Lucky you! 🙂

Yeah, and can you imagine a vet with more advanced degrees and such than she has? Talk about highly educated & experienced.

Of course, I consider her to have and additional qualification that I plan to put to future good use in that she has owned German Shepherds.

Having familiarity with German Shepherds, she should be well acquainted with how they typically don’t digest foods as well as do other breeds! I remember when I first tried all kinds of homemade diets many years ago, from Pitcairn recipes and the like, and still continue to hear people talking about feeding their dogs various whole grains and carbs, legumes, etc. with no problem at all. Nope! Not so with my GSD: I saw all that stuff come out “the other end” wholly unchanged.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 2 months ago by GSDsForever.

[GSDsForever]

Here’s a “simple” sample homemade, already balanced diet from Dr. Wynn:

http://www.susanwynn.com/Homemade_Diet_Recipe.php

I have a couple grain free ones from her that I can’t find at the moment.

You might also look through, to get started & have a basic framework for balanced homemade diets (with some information and charts about nutrition), from UC Davis Veterinary Medical School/DVM Donald Strombeck’s Home-Prepared Dog and Cat Diets and Pitcairn’s classic book. I have both book from long ago, but HDM said Strombeck’s book can now be accessed online too.

If not homemade, I like DogFoodie’s suggestion of rotation as preventing boredom — also just plain old good for the dogs’ health!

• This reply was modified 10 years, 2 months ago by GSDsForever.

[GSDsForever]

Since you’re interested in feeding homemade, just want to do it safely & well, if you can afford the one time fee, I’d highly recommend having a long distance consult (through your vet) with DVM DACVN Susan Wynn.

http://www.susanwynn.com/
http://www.susanwynn.com/Patient_history_forms.php

She will design several homemade diets, with your preferences in mind (which proteins, grain free or not, what kind of vitamin/mineral formulas you prefer, etc.) and including any needs of your specific dogs. It’s a good investment for the life of the dog, especially with two young ones. You start by filling out the form on the 2nd link above. I like what she does better than any other website offering this service, because she is more flexible/open-minded and holistic minded. She also appears to be the most qualified.

She can even do, and specializes in, cancer preventative diets which I think is really cool since that’s such a huge risk for all dogs and cats later in life.

[GSDsForever]

Meghan,

I hadn’t suggested any because I already thought you had quite a good list of foods you found on your own and didn’t need one!

But I will add Timberwolf Organics, a 5 star food here. http://www.timberwolforganics.com/ They make a Platinum line and a Classic line.

The all fish formula (since you wanted to start with just fish) is available in high protein and moderate protein formulas, Platinum and Classic, and both are grain free: Ocean Blue.

http://www.timberwolforganics.com/products/platinum-canine-formulas/ocean-blue-platinum-grain-free-dog-food-formula-24-lbs.html

http://www.timberwolforganics.com/products/originals-canine-formulas/ocean-blue-originals-formula-24-lbs.html

I absolutely love their formulas, particularly the Wilderness Elk & Salmon, Lamb & Apples, and Ocean Blue. I’ve fed all except the chicken formulas. The bison formula was the last to be reformulated for the newer Platinum (higher protein) line, an exclusively GF line, and so I have not tried the new version.

The way I get excellent prices is ordering two large bags at a time (discounted), free shipping + no tax, and taking advantage of “earned points” discounts and sales. Timberwolf gave me $10 off my last order (entirely earned by my previous purchase!), on top of the other discounts. Two large bags of Classic (48 lbs total) cost $89, while Platinum would be $105 (48 lbs total). (Or, in your case with 2 dogs, you could order the 45 lb bags, also discounted.)

It takes 1 week to free ship across country, unless the item is sold out and out of stock in which case it is sold as a pre-order 3-5 weeks in advance. This food is made & shipped very fresh in small batches.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 2 months ago by GSDsForever.

[GSDsForever]

I’ve had good success crumbling Stella & Chewy’s freeze dried raw medallions over the food, just about a quarter to half of a medallion, crumbled fine enough that the dog cannot pick it out and just eat the S&C. I honestly think of it as like doggie crack (lol).

Some dogs have also been attracted to virgin coconut oil mixed into the food.

Turkey/chicken/beef broth warmed & poured over the food is another winner.

Other ideas: parmesan cheese or garlic powder* (or a minced clove*) sprinkled over

*NB: Although this is considered a controversial item by some, I’ve always used it in medium to large breed dogs without problems. I regard it as safe and beneficial to health. The dogs seem to like it. And my vet approved it.

[GSDsForever]

Lots of breeders and rescues use this for the cost and grain free aspect, multiple flavors.

But yeah I had problems when I used some with particular foster dogs. I just shrugged it off and assumed it didn’t work for SOME of the dogs — when I got GIANT cow patty poops, overly soft/unformed and sometimes with mucous stuff, diarrhea, and not eating. Just switched to a better food. And this was on the western half of the country. Never thought it could be contamination/spoilage issues.

At ~325 cal/cup it’s too low calorie for some dogs anyway when they come out of the pound really underweight, particularly certain skinnier breeds. They would have to eat SO MUCH of it daily to meet calorie needs, and some dogs won’t consume that kind of volume.

[GSDsForever]

InkedMarie, and why would she be out the cost anyway? Costco takes stuff back for any reason. Pretty sure moldy biscuits would make the cut. LOL.

[GSDsForever]

Labs, we are all so jealous of the availability & price point of Victor in your area! LOL. You are very lucky. I cannot find it here anywhere and not online at that kind of price.

Meghan, just wanted to add that I agree with Labs that Victor is also a great choice.

[GSDsForever]

But you started this with a concern for digestibility, good absorption of nutrients, stool size, and gas. So I wanted to comment on that.

“I don’t know if having more animal protein versus plant protein would help her digest the nutrients and poop/have gas less?”

In short, no. It is the quality of the individual ingredients, what they are and their grade, that affect digestibility as they go into a formula. You’re also playing a balancing game with some ingredients, between rich in nutrients and greater digestibility. From there, processing matters. It can affect overall digestibility and preservation of nutrients. Finally freshness of ingredients going into the formula and from date of manufacture to purchase and use are very important.

I would highly recommend calling the company of the the foods you’re considering, as well as the one you’ve been feeding (Infinia) and asking for Total Dry Matter Digestibility, plus digestibility of protein, fat, and carbs.

The Infinia is rather low in protein, lower than I personally would feel comfortable feeding. But that isn’t the problem when looking at nutrient absorption and digestibility. But when the protein IS very low, then it becomes even more critical to ensure that it is very high quality and highly digested.

Since Infinia Holistic Salmon & Sweet Potato’s primary ingredients are ones that look good and CAN be highly digestible . . .

Salmon, Menhaden fish meal, sweet potatoes, potatoes

it may the grade of ingredients and/or processing that is problematic.

Fish meal, for example, comes in MANY different grades at VERY different price points to pet food companies. It can be very high ash & bones, leftover carcass material or low ash/high protein & high digestibility and come from good cuts included or whole fish with most bone filtered out, which costs the company considerably more and is harder to source. It also, by AAFCO definition, can be stripped of its oil (which is sold separately at profit, rather than going into the food) or have those precious Omega 3s left in. This formula appears to be very low in Omega 3, particularly for a fish formula, and even though it has been already boosted by plant oil (Canola). Reasons for fish formulas to be low in Omega 3 tend to be the meal has been stripped of its oils and/or use of farmed salmon. Salmon varieties also range greatly in Omega 3 content!

Canola oil is not going to be as digestible and its nutrients absorbed well in order to be used by your dog vs., say, salmon oil or an animal fat. (I personally don’t like canola oil anyway, as it’s not a very clean ingredient. In commercial use, it is generally high heat and chemical processed, damaged, and and contaminated.) Potatoes, sweet potatoes can include skins or not, etc. affecting digestibility and stool volume.

Foods cooked for less time and at lower temperatures preserve more nutrients. And gentle cooking both increases digestibility and nutrient absorbability in ingredients and nutrients AND decreases them compared to raw, depending on the ingredient or nutrient.

Consider how fresh the ingredients are, how fresh from date of manufacture, how it was stored and transported prior to getting to you, and how properly sealed the bags are. (From there, you must also store foods properly.) Actually smell the food.

But just to give you an example of how you can never tell with things like digestibility from the price and marketing/popularity of a product or just looking at the ingredient list of a “better” brand — Orijen’s 6 Fish formula has a pretty poor overall dry matter digestibility for a premium brand and is in fact the lowest among their formulas. It’s also lower than the cheap bulk bags from Costco, Nature’s Domain (by Diamond).

[GSDsForever]

Meghan,

First of all, can I just say what an impressive amount of thoughtful research and care you’ve provided for your dog? Honestly, wtg! Your dog is very, very lucky to have such an obviously caring owner.

I think nearly all the brands you’ve listed are really good choices made by reputable trustworthy companies, with the exception of Innova, a Proctor and Gamble product. I agree with Akari and would avoid Proctor and Gamble brands, just as I avoid Mars/Purina/Nestle/etc. and Diamond manufactured brands. P&G brands bought out from Natura include Innova, Evo, California Natural, Karma, and Mother Nature treats.

I am not familiar with Sammy Snacks Ancestry and so cannot recommend it before knowing more about the company and its history. I would advise caution with newer/less familiar brands until you have some good information beyond just ingredient labels and guaranteed analyses. This company could be great, however!

If you want to know more information about Horizon, Zignature, Earthborn, and Wellness, I am really familiar with these brands & and would be happy to share what I know.

Of those, I think the Horizon Legacy Fish and Zignature Trout & Salmon would be my first choices. And not only do they both have excellent amounts of Omega 3 (and Omega 3 to 6 ratio) from exclusively wild caught fish, and the Omega 3 is not derived from plant oils (which are unlikely to be absorbed), both are ethoxyquin-free.

I appreciate that these brands you mention are available at lower price points. I’m on a small budget too! Remember, just because a more expensive brand exists, it doesn’t always make it a better food from a better company. Ditto for who has the best marketing vs. makes excellent food with high quality ingredient & processing standards.

[GSDsForever]

Cat Lane’s website:

https://thepossiblecanine.wordpress.com/

[GSDsForever]

yellowdaisy,

I think HK is an excellent company, with quality foods and high standards (including safety). The formulas are pretty gentle and I’ve never known dogs to have trouble with it, especially sensitive/touchy stomach dogs. I like the Zeal formula best (which many sensitive dogs do well on when they can’t on other foods), then the Embark. Zeal is HK’s highest protein and uses a very high quality source, though the fat is very, very low — which some dogs do best with and others need to add back.

The only negatives I encounter with HK are that some formulas are grain inclusive (when owners don’t want that), some dogs aren’t crazy about the soupy texture, and high cost . . . esp. grain free Zeal & Embark. I would like to see, at their higher price point, their base ingredients be organic (like Stella & Chewy’s) when it’s a known heavily pesticide contaminated ingredient or preference for less contaminated fruits/veggies/greens chosen when organic isn’t feasable/prohibitively expensive — kind of like how I shop at the grocery store. But they are still very clean, high quality foods and I would feed them + highly recommend the brand.

In Nutrisource/Pure Vita’s defense, I really don’t think that their food can be blamed for tumors. Something triggers cancer to start in the body and that can be many complex factors, usually involving toxins as insults to the body and the immune system + some genetics. From there, we do know from research that cancer feeds selectively off sugars/simple carbs and need an acidic environment to be active . . . but that’s after the cancer has taken hold. Certain breeds (and their mixes) currently have very high incidences of cancer, like Goldens or Bernese Mountain Dogs; or there is a breed specific cancer like hemangiosarcoma. Some stats show more than half of all dogs and cats now die of cancer.

Pure Vita does pretty clean sourcing, for example using more expensive wild caught fish exclusively (protecting against toxins like PCBs in farmed salmon) and imposes a good bit of safety testing and quality standards. Many dogs seem to do really well on the food, esp. those with allergies/sensitivities or needing a bland diet and limited ingredient diet.

At the same time, virtually all commercial pet foods have significant contamination with bacterial toxins (enterotoxins, endotoxins, cytotoxins, etc.), from the meat, processing and handling, sanitation issues, storage, heat or lack of heat processing, moisture spoilage (like aflatoxins, etc in grains), lack of freshness, rancidity of fats/oils, etc. (You can read more about this in texts like UC Davis Vet School’s/DVM Strombeck’s Home Prepared Dog & Cat Diets, chapter 3 on commercial pet foods/food safety & preparation.)

Nevertheless, I do think homemade diets (balanced) using a wide variety of fresh foods in rotation, cleanly sourced (wild fish, grass fed & free range, organic), are best. So I think you are on the right track. Good luck!

[GSDsForever]

Once you get the weight under control, (Nutrisource) Pure Vita Grain Free Salmon & Sweet Potato might be an excellent choice. It is a very bland, limited ingredient formula (and without the ingredients you mention) with moderate fat from a good company. Many sensitive dogs do well on it.

I’d also recommend trying Timberwolf Organic’s Ocean Blue Classic formula (potatoes listed are sweet potatoes, not white), also an excellent tried and true formula many allergic and sensitive dogs have done extremely well on, though it has more fruits/seeds/herbs base ingredients than the Pure Vita GF formula. So if your dog is super, super sensitive and can’t tolerate much, I’d recommend taking baby steps with the Pure Vita GF first.

[GSDsForever]

I would think that most high quality, non vegetarian dog foods will not contain soy or navy bean (this one would be a rare ingredient even in vegetarian kibble!).

For lowfat foods, I would look through DFA’s list of lowfat foods, particularly the grain free ones. For dry foods without white potato, InkedMArie has posted here in forums a list of grain-free and white potato free foods and I would cross check it.

High carb foods, more than high protein/fat foods, show in studies to put more weight on dogs. So I would keep that in mind. But even among the reduced carb/higher protein grain free foods, there are some that are low fat. Two that come to mind are Honest Kitchen’s Zeal and Wellness Core’s reduced fat formula.

[GSDsForever]

Above: Pusuke was a Shiba Inu Mix. I haven’t found any other info on specific of her care & diet. Her owner simply said “‘plenty of love, plenty of good food and regular check-ups at the vet’s’.”

5)Sako Med-Large Mix; identified variously as Labrador-Heeler-Staffordshire or Kelpie Mix; 21 yrs

Diet: Nature’s Gift, which owner calls a “fantastic food”

Owner: Maryanne & Tony Wilde
Melbourne, Australia

6)Chanel Wirehaired Dachshund; 21

Diet: Cooked Chicken & Multigrain Pasta, mixed with commercial dog food
adopted from a shelter as a puppy; owners had previous experience w/dachshunds
elder care: wore protective goggles for cataracts; t shirt/sweater for cold & dog booties;
daily exercise & time out; last yrs used a buggie on longer walks

Owners: Karl & Denice Shaughnessy
Port Jeferson Station, New York
http://www.today.com/id/30596398/ns/today-today_pets/t/meet-chanel-almost-worlds-oldest-dog/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2009/sep/01/worlds-oldest-dog-chanel-dead

[GSDsForever]

Article on Longevity in Dogs:
http://pets.webmd.com/dogs/features/dogs-and-life-span-which-breeds-live-longest

Life Spans for Popular AKC Dog Breeds, per World Atlas of Dog Breeds:

Labrador retriever — 10 to 14 years

Yorkshire terrier — 12 to 15 years

German Shepherd — 10 to 14 years

Golden retriever — 10 to 12 years

Beagles — 12 to 14 years

Boxers — 11 to 14 years

Dachshunds — 12 to 14 years

Bulldogs — 10 to 12 years

Poodles — 10 to 15 years

Shih Tzu — 11 to 15 years

Miniature Schnauzers — 15 years or more

Chihuahuas — 15 years or more

Pomeranians — 13 to 15 years

Rottweilers — 10 to 12 years

Pugs — 12 to 15 years

German shorthaired pointers — 12 to 15 years

Boston terriers — about 15 years

Doberman Pinschers — 10 to 12 years

Shetland Sheepdogs — 12 to 14 years

Maltese — 15 years or more

[GSDsForever]

1)CHILLA Cattle Dog/Black Labrador Mix 32 yrs

Diet: Fresh food, cooked; “boiled leftovers such as potato peels, cabbage, egg shells, with a soup bone” + 1 x week commercial can dog food and biscuits

Owner: David Broadbeach, Queensland, Australia
http://news.google.co.uk/newspapers?id=R1suAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ZNoFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3926,2238929&dq=bluey+dog+oldest&hl=en

[GSDsForever]

Just adding — Fromm has never had a recall, 100 yrs family owned. Prices as low as about $1/lb for their classic adult formula.

Plain high quality natural yogurt should help w/gas (or any diarrhea ever); mine has several live active cultures. My organic raw greens supplement contains digestive enzymes & pro/prebiotcs and so does the food I feed, which I’d think most superpremiums *should* (but check to be sure). Does the Halo not?

Any idea what’s causing the issue in the Halo??

I feed and recommend Timberwolf — you could try either the moderate protein Classics line or the higher protein Platinum line. I recommend rotating among their formulas, which are all excellent. All are very highly digestible, more than most foods, which should also help avoid gas. I order directly from their website.

[GSDsForever]

gmc,

I use Grizzly’s wild Alaskan salmon oil, don’t recommend the combos. No, Pollock is not better; it’s inferior & cheaper (cf guaranteed analysis), offered instead because Grizzly’s experienced a wild salmon shortage this past season apparently.

[GSDsForever]

Interesting point, InkedMarie, re the mixed tocopherols/Vit E — wouldn’t have thought about that.

I’m using Trader Joe’s . . . wonder what theirs is from . . . though my dogs haven’t had problems with soy. I just know it’s natural vitamin E, unlike the competitive priced Costco one, and non-GMO sourced (as all their labeled stuff is).

[GSDsForever]

jewlz,

I highly recommend the membership to Costco, on its own merits, but not dog foods. On that note, Costco guarantees that you recoup your $50 membership within 6 months plus savings, and will allow you to cancel with refund and keep merchandise if you do not or are unhappy. Ask.

I’m a huge fan of Costco, but this is not one of their stronger merchandise sections. And be wary of the treats too; they often (not always exclusively) have China made stuff. I don’t recommend the Kirkland/Nature’s Domain foods because they are Diamond manufactured, which I believe makes them overly risky, and to get those low prices they cheapen & take short cuts on many of the ingredients and overall formulations you see, such that they are not really comparable to some higher quality foods.

I know little about Boxers & Bulldogs, really not my breeds, but enough to caution PLEASE be careful about whatever nutritional and life care precautions necessary re: dilated cardiomyopathy in which available taurine and carnitine factor and bone issues from extremely high breed incidence of hip dysplasia (Bulldogs; see OFA stats) to cruciate ligature and bone wear & tear stress w/Boxers.

[GSDsForever]

Just to add another response — personally I’d prefer the Horizon. I really like what I’ve learned about the company and what I can see in the ingredients. I’d personally feel more confidence and trust in Horizon’s products, especially the fish ones.

I agree with the above comments regarding variety & rotating foods.

I’m also a big believer in giving high quality fresh whole foods (gently cooked or raw), to supplement whatever kibble/canned, if you’re not going to feed homemade exclusively or at least part of the time.

[GSDsForever]

Thanks to HoundDogMom and Susan Thixton (Truth About Pet Food website) for this:

http://truthaboutpetfood2.com/which-pet-foods-have-bpa-free-cans

This topic HERE has had little traffic, but is being discussed on other threads on this forum. So I hope this information will help others and not just me!

[GSDsForever]

I think dog foods must range in the weight that makes up a cup by volume.

For my kibble,

1 C = 5 Ounces, so 77 cups to 24lbs

~520-570 calories/cup

[GSDsForever]

Hi angels. Good luck — I’m so sorry you’re having a tough time of it!

The Timberwolf Organics you may only be able to order online directly from Timberwolf, depending on where you live. But the good news is that it’s also cheaper that way and no tax either.

In stores, from pugsmom’s helpful list, you’ll probably be able to find the Natural Balance Limited Ingredient (the lamb very similar to your old formula), Honest Kitchen, Wellness or EVO or Merrick cans . . . maybe the Canine Caviar or Nature’s Logic (I see those in fewer places). Stella&Chewy’s will probably be easy to find and is an excellent (albeit pricey) brand, if you can find a formula without chicken or turkey or peas, the other ingredients aren’t ever in the foods.

Those Great Life grain-free formulas, which I’ve never seen in stores & would probably also have to be ordered online, also look good — just way less meat (I think) compared to Timberwolf. Some very unusual ingredients! (I don’t think my dog has ever eaten “green lipped mussel,” lol, and he’s eaten a lot of stuff!)

[GSDsForever]

Oh my goodness. LOL. Okay, thanks for the heads up.

I genuinely thought it was someone for whom English is a second language. I’ve graded papers where that was the case. And I guess I’m not exactly familiar with a spambot (or why it would appear here). So I was talking to a computer or automated thing? Ha ha.

[GSDsForever]

It looks like the Classic version of the Elk would be okay for you also, none of known allergens listed for it:

1st 5 Ingredients: Elk, Salmon Meal, Sweet Potatoes, Pumpkin, Salmon Oil

Elk, Salmon Meal, Oats, Sweet Potatoes, Pumpkin, Salmon Oil, Dried Kelp, Alfalfa, Pears, Blueberries, Strawberries, Figs, Sage, Rosemary, Summer Savory, Cinnamon, Flax Seed, Carrots, Celery, Beets, Watercress, Potassium Chloride, Lecithin, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Casei Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Lactis Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Product, Taurine, DL-Methionine, Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Choline Chloride, Iron Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin E Supplement, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Cobalt Proteinate, Potassium Iodide, Sodium Selenite, Mixed Tocopherols, Citric Acid, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Rosemary Extract

[GSDsForever]

Ocean Blue Classic version *might* be okay too. I’d ask — because I know in the past, the “potatoes” the owner has used he stated are sweet potatoes, not white potatoes. It’s easiest to reach them via online chat (pops up on their website).

Classic is their lower priced, more moderate protein line, which may or may not by formula include grains. Here are the Classic version ingredients:

1st 5 ingredients: White Fish Meal, Herring, Salmon Meal, Salmon Oil, Blueberries

*Fish is wild caught Alaskan, no Ethoxyquin. Salmon oil is from wild caught Alaskan also.

White Fish Meal, Herring, Potatoes, Salmon Meal, Salmon Oil, Blueberries, Figs, Basil, Dill, Anise Seed, Caraway Seed, Watercress, Spinach, Celery, Parsley, Marigold Flowers, Sesame Seeds, Almonds, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium Thermophilum Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium Longum Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Choline Chloride, Iron Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin E Supplement, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Cobalt Proteinate, Potassium Iodide, Sodium Selenite, Mixed Tocopherols, Citric Acid, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Rosemary Extract

As you can see, there are no grains in this lower priced formula either. I’d inquire whether the potatoes are white or sweet potatoes.

[GSDsForever]

Here are the ingredients for the Timberwolf Ocean Blue Platinum I recommended:

1st 5 Ingredients: Herring, Salmon, Dried Salmon, Chickpeas, Ocean Fish

*Fish are wild caught Alaskan, no Ethoxyquin.
**Food is low temperature steam/pressure cooked at 200-225 Degrees, max 10-15 minutes.

Herring, Salmon, Spray Dried Salmon, Chick Peas, Ocean Fish, Spray Dried Whitefish, Sweet Potatoes, Olive Oil, Salmon Oil, Dried Organic Kelp, Dried Saccharomyces Cerevisiae, Herring Oil, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Thyme, Anise Seed, Fenugreek, Garlic, Ginger, Mango, Blueberries, Cranberries, Whole Carrots, Dried Celery, Dried Parsley, Dried Lettuce, Dried Watercress, Dried Spinach, Lecithin, Choline Chloride, Minerals: [Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Iron Amino Acid Complex, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Calcium Pantothenate, Potassium Iodide, Sodium Selenite], Vitamins: [Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Niacin (A Source Of Vitamin B3), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin (A Source Of Vitamin B2), Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (A Source Of Vitamin B6), Thiamine Hydrochloride (A Source Of Vitamin B1), Biotin (A Source Of Vitamin B7), Citric Acid (A Source Of Vitamin C), Mixed Tocopherols (A Source Of Vitamin E and A Natural Preservative)], Prebiotics: [Chicory Root (Inulin)], Probiotics: [Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Casei Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Lactis Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus Subtillus Fermentation Product], Papain, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Beta-Carotene, Fructooligosaccharides, Taurine, L-Carnitine, DL-Methionine, Lemon Juice, Rosemary Extract (A Natural Preservative).

[GSDsForever]

Sorry to hear about the turkey and dairy. Well, at least you know lamb and rice are for sure okay, as these are pretty commonly available in commercial dog foods. Ditto the sweet potatoes.

What about fish? It can be an excellent protein source with the added benefit of Omega 3 brain food and great for skin/coat. Beef? Elk/venison? Bison? Duck? Pork?

What are you feeding right now (since stopping the Cal Natural Lamb & Rice)?

[GSDsForever]

Oh my stars! 180 pugs??? Wow.

Kudos to you and God bless you. That is beyond amazing. Thank you for having such a good heart.

I really would love to foster again, GSDs specifically since I know the breed so well and feel like that way I could do the most good. I haven’t been able to for a while. I will say though, I am such a sucker for animals in need, that I have even fostered a litter of kitties (when the largest no kill shelter was out of homes, the kill shelters overloaded with felines) — and not only am I highly allergic, but I don’t even particularly like cats. LOL.

[GSDsForever]

Yes! We have several gourmet pizza places near me actually that offer gluten-free pizzas.

I’ve been less jazzed about non-wheat pasta. I’m not interested in rice pasta. And the quinoa blend one I had recently was awful, would not cook properly. But then I’m also kind of a purist with my pasta and Italian food. I like Costco’s imported Italian organic Garafola brand pasta, cooked al dente.

[GSDsForever]

Dogspot,

I am not exactly an apologist for raw meat diets or bones & raw food. It’s not how I choose to feed or what I would even consider to be the very best diet out there.

My #1 preference is for a balanced homemade diet with a wide variety of lightly cooked and raw ingredients, depending on each ingredient, prioritizing nutrient dense, active super foods. Digestibility also matters to me, as well as whether my dog actually enjoys his food.

But, to be fair, 1)I’ve known many dogs doing well on well prepared safe raw meat based diets with very conscientious owners. 2)Many commercial kibbles, treats, etc have had huge contamination problems and recalls related to salmonella precisely, as well as moldy grains, melamine, vomitoxins, aflatoxins, e coli, etc. This is hardly a raw foods specific hazard or common occurrence. 3)Dogs, in truth, typically handle bacteria and such much better than humans do and healthy dogs have high tolerances.

I think some alarmist stuff with raw feeding is rather overblown. For example, I feed raw eggs and cooked eggs, and have eaten undercooked eggs in various forms and recipes all my life . . . without once getting sick from salmonella or having my dog do so either. At the same time, I became very sick with food poisoning from a single COOKED organic SWEET POTATO — likely either from inadequate washing or black spots on the skin that can cause rather virulent food poisoning.

[GSDsForever]

This statement is not true actually:

“Because none of the currently available meat-free diets for dogs or cats base their claims of nutritional adequacy on recognized feeding protocols such as those of the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO, 2007).”

There are multiple vegetarian or vegan dog foods that do. And there are multiple balanced non-USA brands as well. Not that I think the AAFCO’s standards offer particularly great quality assurance, but they are a starting point.

Also, regarding 5D meats & byproducts, while yes many dog foods do contain these, there ARE a number of companies producing dog foods containing meat that take great care to exclude these, with some going the extra mile to select the highest quality grades and things like organic, wild, grass fed/free range, human grade, and low ash.

Would you care to share what you are using for your homemade vegetarian diet for your dog? We might be able to help or offer suggestions here. And others might benefit as well.

[GSDsForever]

Suresh,

Nice to hear things are going well for you. Keep up the good work!

One caution: dogs absolutely should NOT be given chocolate. You mentioned chocolate flavoring. Chocolate is toxic to dogs, along with other common foods like caffeine (coffee/tea), onions, grapes/raisins, macadamia nuts, walnuts, etc.

If you are going to feed homemade, which can be the very best for dogs, it is important to become familiar with poisonous ingredients for dogs, study/consult for proper diet balancing of nutrients, and use a quality multi-vitamin & mineral supplement (and if vegetarian/vegan, one specifically designed for vegetarian/vegan fed dogs).

[GSDsForever]

Crespuscular,

Hi there . . . if you’re still around or checking in on occasion.

Thank you for adopting — I will never stop loving hearing about anyone adopting a shelter or rescue pet, taking in a stray, providing a second (and forever!) home to a dog.

Of the 4 brands you mention, I would look beyond the ingredients to the company that makes the food and their history. The ingredients, percentages don’t matter if you can’t trust what’s in the bag, highest quality ingredient commitment and sourcing, and manufacturing with strict quality controls and testing.

Innova Prime — owned by Proctor & Gamble
Kirkland Nature’s Domain — owned & manufactured by Diamond
Wellness Core — owned by Berwing, and until recently manufactured by Diamond
Nutrisource — owned & manufactured by Nutrisource

While Innova Prime and Wellness Core are often viewed as “higher end” foods with alluring ingredients & percentages, big name & trendy, glossy marketing . . . I’d regard Nutrisource the most trustworthy manufacturer. Long history, small family privately owned, no recalls in their history, makers of 2 other health oriented dog foods (Natural Planet Organics & Pure Vita).

Innova Prime (along with California Natural, Evo, Mother Nature, and Karma) is a Proctor & Gamble product. P&G bought out Natura — formerly a small family owned company, maker of quality health foods for dogs & no recall in 21 yrs — and has had with multiple mass recalls since the fairly recent takeover, affecting all their dog food brands. P&G, maker of Iams & numerous household/personal products and foods, has an extensive history of extreme animal cruelty in commercial animal testing (among other ethical issues) and has been one of the most, if not the most, notorious offenders and most defiant about it. Many people boycott them and all their household products for this reason.

Nature’s Domain at Costco is manufactured by Diamond. Diamond, like Menu Foods, makes a huge number of foods and has a very poor history of not only many mass recalls, but deadly ones, and with a history of poorly responding to consumers whose pets have fallen seriously ill. Many customers & businesses will no longer do business with them as a result. Personally, I think it very risky buying products manufactured by Diamond.

I think this particular product can also be very deceptive, a bait & switch, particularly the salmon — in pretty packaging, alluring marketing description, and tempting price point. Mainly I think that it’s a starchy carb based food, with very little actual meat/fish, and devoid of healthy fat or Omega 3. It uses farmed salmon & fish, which tend to be diseased and contaminated with dangerous toxins like PCBs.

Wellness was founded by Old Mother Hubbard (now merged with Eagle Pack), became WellPet, and was bought out by Berwing. Berwing is a large multi-billion dollar company, privately held, which made its money in coal and now makes numerous products including Elmer’s glue. Wellness was manufactured by Diamond (and suffered recalls under Diamond). Despite severing ties with Diamond (per Wellness) less than a year ago, Wellness is still having recalls and most recently has had alarming pictures surface on the web of extremely moldy food.

Have you considered Fromm? This is another small, longtime family owned company (100 yrs), no recalls, that makes an array of all natural quality foods at every price point — as low as just over $1 a bag for Fromm Classics Adult Dog Food ($33.99/33 lbs with auto ship at PetFoodDirect, 15% off; full price of one time ship, $39.99/33 lbs). This company takes a lot of care with ingredient sourcing, ingredient grade, formulation, and excluding what it believes to be harmful ingredients and including specific ingredients thought to be health promoting (like cartilage for glucosamine).

At that higher price point you are considering for Innova Prime or Wellness Core, I’d redirect to to the lower priced and, in my opinion, higher quality & nutrient dense Timberwolf Organics. I have more trust and confidence in the (very small) company and owner. And I have fed their foods for many years with great results. They make a Platinum line (grain & white potato free, low carb/high protein) and Classic line (whole grains & sweet potatoes, more moderate protein). Prices range from about $45/24 lbs Classic line with advance ordering, directly online from Timberwolf to about $50-55/24 lbs Platinum line with advance ordering. Regular prices for immediate shipment, arrival within 3-5 days, are $55 and $64. Shipping is free for $60+ orders, or flat $5. http://www.timberwolforganics.com/

[GSDsForever]

Well, there’s already fish genes in non-organic tomatoes (to keep from frost), so I guess this doesn’t surprise me.

I just worry, as with farmed salmon, most about the farmed or GM fish escaping and mixing/breeding with the wild supply. Scary that we may not even have a choice then.

I know the top GM crops are corn, cotton, soy, beets. Also papaya! All Whole Foods and Trader Joe’s brand do not contain GM ingredients. So that helps. Found out that all popcorn though is still non-GMO, because it’s a separate seed variety and they haven’t figured out yet how to create a GMO version.

The pictures of groups of rats fed GMO soy, GMO soy with RoundUp (both by Monsanto, of course), and then non-GMO soy were very disturbing. Loads of giant tumors, still births and miscarriages, early deaths, etc. with the GMO & RoundUp garbage. Just when I thought I was becoming paranoid or overly cautious, I was reminded that I really, really should never be buying that stuff.

[GSDsForever]

More cancer fighting foods to make liberal use of:

Herbs & Spices:
Turmeric
Ginger
Raw Garlic
Basil
Oregano
Thyme
Sage
Mints
Marjoram
Italian Flat Leaf Parsley
Rosemary
Tarragon
Fenugreek
Fennel
Chili Pepper (in small amounts!)

Greens (Organic):
Kale
Mustard Greens
Turnip Greens

Veggies:
Broccoli
Brussels Sprouts
Asparagus
Cauliflower
Carrots (preferably organic)
Celery (organic)
Eggplant
Mushrooms, all: especially Enoki, Shiitake, Maitake (also cordyceps)
Bell Peppers (organic)
Winter Squash
Rutabagas
Turnips
Tomatoes
Cucumber
Daikon
Fennel
Sweet Potatoes

Fruits:
Berries (organic)
Citrus (organic)
Papaya
Cantaloupe

Seafood (Uncontaminated)

Legumes:
Lentils
Miso
Organic Non-GMO Tofu

Whole Grains (IF using in homemade or choosing among in a food):
Barley
Steel Cut Oats (slow kind)
Brown Rice
Whole Wheat (organic)

Oils:
Organic Virgin Coconut
Extra Virgin Olive
Fish Oil (Clean Source)

Other: Flaxseed (fresh ground), Licorice Root, Decaff Green/Oolong/Black Tea

Source: USDA NAPR ALERT/Natural Products Alert/database of 100, 000 studies from University of Illinois @ Chicago; and Nutritional Almanac (Lavonne J Dunne)

[GSDsForever]

Ken,

I am so very, very sorry to hear about your dog. Yes, I do have experience with cancer diets and holistic multi-pronged treatment, particularly T Cell Leukemia which is similar.

I’d strongly recommend your vets consulting with this holistic and board certified oncologist, Dr. Betsey Hershey:

http://www.integrativeveterinaryoncology.com/

She is OUTSTANDING and, no matter how humble and self-deprecating she is, she has had amazing success rates with multiple cancers, and is widely consulted for cancer (her specialty) as well as by neurology specialist vets for challenging conditions where holistic knowledge is needed.

She is additionally certified in Chinese Medicine and Canine Acupuncture, trained in dietary therapy, etc. Also obtain online or from her office the diet protocols & Susan Wynn on homemade. (It’s also worth trying the Ogilvie protocol of Cottage Cheese/Flax Oil.) Ask Dr. Hershey’s office specifically about Wei Qi Immune Booster (patented Chinese medicine blend), also organic greens (sea vegetables/grasses) supplementing. High dose natural Vitamin E & a mega mega dose of decaff green tea extract (being used in clinical human trials at the Mayo Clinic).

For diet, Dr Hershey wants patients on 40% protein (and clean, highly digestible), moderate to high fat, and low carbs. ALL simple carbs and sugar are to be avoided in food and treats. The key is to starve the cancer of sugar and nourish, strengthen the body. She recommends fats like virgin coconut oil.

Above all, do NOT let anyone tell you that your dog has the worst, most lethal form of cancer and has a terrible prognosis (based on blood work numbers or statistics). It’s the whole picture of the dog that matters and holistic, multi-pronged treatment can work wonders.

[GSDsForever]

Sorry to be the party pooper & naysayer, BUT . . .

I just do NOT think this product is worth spending the money on. I think the ingredients are very generic & see nothing special about it to make it some wonder product or justify its prices. It’s apparently all over the radio & TV right now, and I’ve had several people ask me about it.

I think there are much better supplements out there (and cleaner/purer) at lower cost. There are some ingredients that even strike me as wholly unnecessary and not beneficial in any way. And I think other ingredients in its various versions should and can easily come from a good food.

If it works for you, great, good luck. But I think it’s a waste of money and not a very well designed product with highest quality of ingredients.

This product seems about as magical as all those PetSmart/Petco supplement aisle products that claim to get rid of shedding, and then contain very basic cheap cooking oils and bargain basement vitamin mix.

[GSDsForever]

My dog became adept at spitting out sliced meat or cheese along with the pills, with great flourish and disgust, wouldn’t even eat the meat or cheese! He turned his head away from natural peanut butter, that was sticking his mouth together.

He loves the cream cheese and takes it happily, even seeing me (smartie pants GSD) dip his supplement pills in it.

[GSDsForever]

In case this helps someone else giving pills or supplements . . .

I use the whipped version of cream cheese (Trader Joe’s) and it works like a charm!

The thing that concerns me with peanut butter, once you even find an all natural one (not loaded up with sugar/corn syrup and weird additives), is the aflatoxin risk. A potent carcinogen. And then there was the peanut butter recalls over salmonella — good grief, it’s been many months and stores like Costco are just now returning the natural versions to the shelf. Trader Joe’s popular Valencia one is still gone.

[Author]

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