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GSDsForever

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  • in reply to: Rayne Clinical Nutrition #144063 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Hi joanne. No, I was just generally curious seeing the mention on this site of a vet prescription therapeutic diets line that I had not heard of.

    I called, and they told me that they originated outside the U.S. and have only been in the U.S. for about 2 yrs, primarily on the east coast.

    They appear to sell some exotic protein allergy diets (among other therapeutic diet needs) with significantly higher protein and fat than typical rx allergy novel or hydrolyzed protein diets that I’ve seen. Should all other things be equal w/the company & its formulas, that interestingly might provide a good option for dogs that from life stage/other reason have nutritional requirements exceeding lower maintenance minimums.

    They include legumes/GF among formulas, which for now might still warrant extra caution and veterinary consideration, until we have further research and knowledge.

    in reply to: Supplement: Nutra Thrive #143998 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Uhhhh . . . where does it purportedly claim to treat “allergies” and “inflammation”?

    Ruth K’s original post (from several month ago) states this supplement is marketed for allergies, but I see nothing about that on the website. That’s actually a good thing (read below).

    Without getting into discussion of efficacy & value of this supplement . . . this product contains multiple food proteins including 1 of the top 2 most common food allergens: beef. This product would not be appropriate for dogs with food allergies and could cause an allergic reaction. Just FYI.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by GSDsForever.
    in reply to: Venture Alaska Pollock Meal & Pumpkin #143917 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Grain inclusive formulas, using brown rice —

    One concern with rice, most especially brown rice, if fed daily, is that it’s been found in recent years to heavily be contaminated with arsenic at toxic levels when sourced from the US other than California, typically from Arkansas, Louisiana, Texas area. (This is due to how the rice is grown, naturally absorbing arsenic from the land in those areas as residue from former cotton growing.)

    I’d love for the companies to source it elsewhere, but I’m not sure the advisories to humans on the issue, for our own diet, (like don’t eat brown rice from there more than a couple times a week) have made it over to the pet food companies to be on their radar.

    I prefer seeing oats for that reason, and they have so many health benefiting properties. White rice is fine. At least this formula has a good mix.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by GSDsForever.
    in reply to: Venture Alaska Pollock Meal & Pumpkin #143916 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Hi Christine. Though I’ve never fed TOTW, I’m also in the same boat looking for a new food, in light of the latest safety information re DCM.

    I personally would not feed another GF formula, from another implicated company on the list (Earthborn) — even though this one does not appear to contain legumes or potatoes. I just think it is an unnecessary risk. And the carb base (tapioca/pumpkin) is still relatively more novel, less traditional and proven safe.

    Re joanne’s recommendation, I can tell you that I also am considering the Holistic Select fish formula (Anchovy, Sardine, & Salmon) — though in my case, the vets and I are going to have to move my girl to any change in protein (for her) with a lot of supervision/planning, thought. She’s had pretty extensive & damaging/threatening allergic reactions and that’s scary.

    I’ll share what I know re HS.

    This HS line has existed for 20 yrs, and Eagle Pack (its sister company that it split off from), since 1970. Neither company has ever had a recall or major safety incident. They now are under Wellpet (Berwind family corporation), with Wellness, though operating rather independently.

    HS exclusively uses its own manufacturing plant in Mishawaka, Indiana (dry food). (Cans are made by Simmons.)

    HS informed me that they have a full time nutritionist on staff who formulated all the foods and remains involved. I asked if it was a veterinary nutritionist, i.e. board certified as DACVN. I was informed by phone that it is a PhD in animal nutrition. (I probably will follow up in writing to confirm and clarify.)

    HS readily provided me with amounts of Taurine, prescursors Methionine & Cysteine. They stated that they have had no cases reported to them or to the FDA of DCM/heart issues from those feeding their foods.

    The base looks good, as pretty traditional with primarily rice (brown and white) and oats, with a little pumpkin at #10. (Flaxseed rounds out the carb base at #8. ) They noted that 69% of the formula’s protein is animal protein (fish). Aside from the of course wild sourced sardines & anchovy, the salmon (#5 ingredient) is 96% wild and less than 4% farmed with their efforts being to have 100% wild caught fish in their formulas.

    If I feed or include this formula, I would be adding sardines boosting the protein/fat and contributing some fresh/real food, along with continuing my rx’d therapeutic dosing of EPA/DHA via the wild Alaskan salmon oil I add to the food. (I use & recommend Grizzly’s brand.)

    joanne, just fyi, the Annamaet GF formulas, and specifically the Aqualuk, were implicated in the FDA incident reports, and contains concentrated peas & legumes. The company was much less cited . . . which may speak well of the company . . . but still. I’d steer clear of their GF legume base formulas.

    GSDsForever
    Participant

    I so cannot read additional detailed poop eating posts and educational materials on the subject, sorry. I’ll gag.

    I am thankful that none of my dogs have ever done this. I’m going to stick to what I do, as it has served me well.

    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Yikes, Aimee. I would agree with you about all the above —

    it being excessive and not acceptable, thinking they should test and trial their food for digestibility (among other things), and problematic for what they sell/how they market if you needed to cook it (although I favor cooking anyway). And I shouldn’t see all unchanged food coming out! Boo to that.

    Adrianne, thanks for sharing your experience. That certainly gives me pause re HK & I’d have been concerned too.

    I would hope that HK and/or the seller would take their food back and refund . . . particularly now that she’s stopped on a different food.

    in reply to: non grain free dog food #143887 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Dennis,

    IMO, just mine, I definitely think you should change brands from Blue Buffalo, both due to the concentrated legumes (be aware of “splitting,” which is found here — which is listing peas, but then separately all the separate parts of peas, which would otherwise be listed even higher in the ingredients) and the quality standards/control of the company.

    There are a number of more reputable companies (my opinion) out there from which to choose, especially since your dogs can have chicken (most commonly available). I would choose one that is grain inclusive/not a concentrated source of either legumes or potatoes.

    There are some awesome small breeds owners on this website that could give you more advice not only on food but longevity in these breeds and yours specifically. My dogs have been long lived, but large breed. Good luck.

    in reply to: Beware of flea and tick for your pets #143883 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Lyme is just one disease ticks spread. You really do not want your dog to have Ehrlichia either. Some cases can present serious symptoms, be challenging for a vet to diagnose and treat. This is particularly true when it is not known that the dog was exposed to a tick or when.

    Mia, I am not aware of other vaccines for this. But I don’t know that I would use one either.

    Good alternatives depend upon the area of the country you live in, what exposure and risk your dog faces.

    Where I live, for both ticks and fleas, avoidance works well. Regular physical inspection head to toe of a dog’s body by an owner, regular grooming, is helpful for many health concerns.

    GSDsForever
    Participant

    My thoughts on the linked news report you provided:

    I don’t understand why Wellness, for one example, wasn’t listed as there are at least 14 cases implicating it reported to the FDA as of April 2019, which anyone can see in the 78 page FDA compilation of cases.

    What’s striking to me is that for companies like Fromm and Wellness (& WellPet) that make a variety of foods, both grain-inclusive and grain-free, it is very specifically their grain-free formulations that have been implicated. Those are the foods that I would avoid, not these companies.

    It caught my attention that this Penn cardiologist (Dr. Anna Gelzer) is mentioning GSDs as prone, as other experts do not typically include the breed.

    Like Joanne, I think that the safest, most cautious response for now is, with one’s vet, to choose to feed the best formula one can find that is

    1)grain-inclusive (doesn’t have concentrated ingredients that do not have a long history of use in dogs)

    “I feel as though if I gave my dog grain free right now, knowing what the FDA said and something should happen to my dog I would feel terrible.”

    100%, ditto, ditto, ditto what Joane said above.

    I also think the best, most cautious approach includes

    2)non-exotic protein (if at all possible), and
    3)with any commercial diet, choose the company formulating (and manufacturing, if different) very carefully — preferring as much as possible ones that have good long histories without incidents, are ethical and responsive to risks, are passionate and knowledgeable about what they do, and do thorough research and testing. And ask a lot of questions.

    Ideally, look for some involvement from a canine nutritionist, e.g. veterinary board certified or PhD or otherwise well credentialed and experienced in the field.

    I am dealing with a more complex, serious allergy situation. It is more daunting, overwhelming and my steps more challenging — whether it’s home prepared fresh foods or a commercial diet selection. I am envious of what others can so easily feed.

    in reply to: Anyone's dog allergic to PEAS? #143878 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    I’m receiving an error message that does not correspond with what I see on my screen here. I don’t *think* this is a duplicate post, but a technical malfunction. (Please pardon me if it is.)

    Nadia,

    The only guidance I’ve ever received or read from trustworthy experts in diagnosing and treating dog food allergies is a food trial:

    *Novel protein diet for up to 12 weeks (or other hypoallergenic test diet, like hydrolyzed) to evaluate for relief
    *Followed by challenging testing the dog with one single food at a time, a former/suspected ingredient allergen

    I’ve been there, with a very itchy dog with food and other allergies. And the above is the route I’ve followed, with a primary care vet and boarded specialist. We also did things to exclude other diagnoses. That’s what I would recommend.

    I’ve heard (and read here) of others referencing blood tests, saliva tests, hair tests, etc. But to the best of my knowledge, there is not medical evidence to support their efficacy and they are not the standard of care in the medical community.

    I worry that such tests not only scam well-meaning pet owners out of money (which they could use otherwise to help their pets), but also lead people to come up with long lists of ingredients that their dogs are supposedly allergic to such that diet choices become severely limited. (IMO, it is very unlikely that these dogs are allergic to numerous and very uncommon things, things that the dog has never been exposed to.)

    Re fleas, allergy or standard reactions to them are more common than are food allergies. (Inhalant and environmental allergies also are common culprits for itching.)

    Vacuum, vacuum, vacuum. It will eliminate a lot of flea problems. Flea dirt is more likely to be discovered than fleas and fleas spend more of their life cycle off the dog in its environment than on. Vacuuming will also help keep pollen, irritants lower inside (as will removing shoes, etc.)

    in reply to: Anyone's dog allergic to PEAS? #143877 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Hmmm . . . . My reply post to you, Nadia, disappeared or won’t post (I tried to edit a typo.). The site is now saying it’s a duplicate post, but nothing is showing on my end.

    If it doesn’t appear in a while, I’ll attempt to post it again below.

    in reply to: Anyone's dog allergic to PEAS? #143875 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Nadia,

    The only guidance I’ve ever received or read from trustworthy experts in diagnosing and treating dog food allergies is a food trial:

    *Novel protein diet for up to 12 weeks (or other hypoallergenic test diet, like hydrolyzed) to evaluate for relief
    *Followed by challenging testing the dog with one single food at a time, a former/suspected ingredient allergen

    I’ve been there, with a very itchy dog with food and other allergies. And the above is the route I’ve followed, with a primary care vet and boarded specialist. We also did things to exclude other diagnoses. That’s what I would recommend.

    I’ve heard (and read here) of others referencing blood tests, saliva tests, hair tests, etc. But to the best of my knowledge, there is not medical evidence to support their efficacy and they are not the standard of care in the medical community.

    I worry that such tests not only scam well-meaning pet owners out of money (which they could use otherwise to help their pets), but also lead people to come up with long lists of ingredients that their dogs are supposedly allergic to such that diet choices become severely limited. (IMO, it is very unlikely that these dogs are allergic to numerous and very uncommon things, things that the dog has never been exposed to.)

    Re fleas, allergy or standard reactions to them are more common than are food allergies. (Inhalant and environmental allergies also are common culprits for itching.)

    Vacuum, vacuum, vacuum. It will eliminate a lot of flea problems. Flea dirt is more likely to be discovered than fleas and fleas spend more of their life cycle off the dog in its environment than on. Vacuuming will also help keep pollen, irritants lower inside (as will removing shoes, etc.)

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by GSDsForever.
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Mike,

    Thanks so much for responding to me. I didn’t know if I did something wrong or why I was experiencing a block.

    I’m sorry to hear that your site experienced that. I don’t understand much about that stuff . . . including what’s the point of the bot(s) with regard to a resource website & community like this!

    Glad it’s over (for now) & that I can participate, as right now this DCM issue is really distressing and I’m reading and posting to both help and obtain help for my own dog.

    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Pat C,

    If your dog can have chicken, I’d go with the Ultra as there is no health negative with this level protein and ultimately the fat level is good for most healthy dogs. I think the only concern here for you is that you noted your dog needs to lose a few pounds; so you might wish to either up your exercise or factor that in to how you feed in the short term, having lower fat, to reach ideal weight. Then just check your dog’s weight periodically and adjust the amount of food and exercise.

    I think if your dog is going to remain on the inactive side long term and shows weight gain on the food, then you would consider a different formula with lower fat or simply feed a little less/adjust treats to low calorie/fat healthy fresh food “bites.”

    Ideally, I personally would prefer a bit higher protein minimum and for healthy ideal weight dogs a bit higher fat than the Option (24/13). At 26/16, Extra’s levels appear very slightly better.

    But I’ve never had an issue with higher fat in a food causing weight gain in my own dogs — and mine usually have needed the higher fat (weight maintenance, good coat & skin)!

    One thing to consider that you haven’t mentioned:

    Be careful re planned daily long term feeding of rice, particularly brown rice, depending upon sourcing in the US. It’s shown very, very high levels of arsenic when sourced from Arkansas, Lousiana, Texas (former cotton growing South) from the land (residue); humans have been advised to avoid consuming very frequently and/or choose less contaminated sources (California, India, Thailand, outside US). It would be another reason to choose more than one formula/carb base & company.

    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Pat C,

    Fromm — Since your dog can have chicken, have you looked into any of Fromm’s grain inclusive formulas? They make a lot of quality foods that are tried and true and it’s a good, longstanding company. Check out the Gold line & look for things like “Puppy,” etc if you’d like a bit higher protein than other lower formulas.

    KLN/Tuffy’s — Have you looked through the grain inclusive offerings? (Brands include Nutrisource, Natural Planet, etc.)

    Petguard — Don’t overlook this company, as it has been around a long time, very low key yet solid quality control & standards.Check out their All Life Stages Chicken & Vegetables (grain inclusive, no legumes or potatoes). (Curious side note: despite making a Pea centric canned food w/potatoes (though grain inclusive), a Vegan one, Petguard never appears once on the FDA DCM-BEG incidents report.)

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by GSDsForever.
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Pat C,

    Merrick — Not a fan of this company, independent of the current concern with DCM and legumes (and to lesser extent potatoes)/GF. I think that they repeatedly have not maintained good quality control (and standards) in a number of areas, from sourcing to manufacturing to labeling, creating undue risks of harm.

    Dr. Tim’s line is not for me, not what I want or need to feed. But my impression/research is that it’s a very solid, trustworthy brand, thoughtfully formulated and maintained, with many longtime members here who’ve had a good experience with it and the founder/owner and customer service.

    Farmina — newer on the market scene in US & I am less familiar with them. Could be a good choice; could be a risk. I’d want to personally research the company before feeding. At a glance, the formula looked fine.

    EaglePak — part of Wellpet (Berwind) &, in my opinion, is one of the more longstanding, trustworthy companies I’d at least consider. The specific formula likely received a 4 vs 5 due to lower protein % and meat content, as this site’s rankings skew in favor of more meat/animal protein and higher protein period; I am actually surprise to hear that it ranked a 4 (vs 3 or 3.5).

    Canidae — I don’t like the company’s relationship with Diamond (manufacturing), esp. if you are east coast (SC facility).

    Annamaet — good company; (just stay away from their GF for now)

    Re performance/athlete — disregard, won’t hurt your dog & may be beneficial. They’re just noting dogs that might especially NEED the formula (vs their other ones). Basically a 30/20 formula, which also breeders & show dogs often have used for coats & condition.

    I wouldn’t get so caught up in or obsess over the 5 star vs 4 star, vs seeing it a a starting point for research/consideration. There are many 5 star foods here I would not feed for reasons not captured by the scoring criteria.

    If you are saying Annamaet’s GF line didn’t rank 5 here, I would disagree that they are inferior (although I would avoid brands’ GF legume heavy formulas for now); if you mean the other ones, it’s likely because other grain inclusive ones are too low in protein & meat.

    in reply to: German Shepard no peas or barley #107367 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    There — that worked. My apologies, Dr. Mike & all, if the original post appears at some point and then we have two/duplicate posts. I’m not sure what happened.

    in reply to: German Shepard no peas or barley #107366 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Hmmm. I think DFA is having a hiccup/glitch.

    I posted to Leslie/OP last night and my post never appeared after a submit/edit-submit. Seeing this, when I tried to re-post (via copy & paste, using browser back button), I received an error message of the system recognizing a duplicate post being submitted.

    As the post is still not showing, let’s see if inserting it here works:

    Leslie,

    Food allergies to barley and peas are not common allergens for dogs.

    Aside from home prepared, where you select and control the ingredients, a few commercial diets that don’t include peas or barley are these:

    Honest Kitchen — several, either with grain or without (e.g. Fish & Coconut)
    California Natural LID — Lamb & Rice, Chicken & Rice
    Pure Vita — Duck & Lentils, Venison & Lentils, Beef & Lentils
    Canine Caviar — Special Needs, Chicken & Millet/Free Spirit, Lamb & Millet, Duck & Chickpea

    But you should be aware that many OTC commercial diets lack adequate cross-contamination quality control, some brands of which have been documented in veterinary literature in testing (e.g. Natural Balance). Checking ingredient lists is not sufficient.

    Before you rule out most diets based on these two ingredients, you might wish to have a look at a few links (scroll down to diagnosis) all from veterinary specialists:

    http://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2017/01/food-allergies/
    http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/diagnosing-food-allergies-dogs-and-cats-bring-your-case-trial
    http://www.vin.com/apputil/project/defaultadv1.aspx?pId=17256&SAId=1&catid=93445&id=4951526

    As Susan noted, it is critical to have an accurate diagnosis of food allergy. Most food allergy “tests” are known to be inaccurate and therefore do not meet the current standard of veterinary care.

    It’s certainly possible to be allergic to any protein. But in dogs with food allergies (inhalant/environmental allergies being more common than food), the most common allergens are chicken, beef, dairy, egg, wheat, & soy — and now fish and lamb (which used to be alternatives), although less likely.

    As a homemade diet can easily be formulated without either of these 2 ingredients, barley and peas, I would recommend you consider this.

    in reply to: German Shepard no peas or barley #107337 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Laurie is absolutely correct:

    Skin issues are one of the most common health issues for German Shepherds, so much so that vet books reference things like “German Shepherd Pyoderma” for example. Very, very commonplace. These bacterial and other infections typically have an underlying health disorder that is primary.

    GSDs are *frequently* are mentioned in veterinary literature among the dogs most commonly suffering allergies. Allergies or autoimmune system dysfunction are known to underlie skin troubles in GSDs.

    Laurie, I too believe that a fresh home prepared diet is ideal.

    But in a food allergy dog, it’s all about removing the allergen in the diet — whether commercial kibble/wet, raw, or homecooked.

    I’m so grateful to have my dog no longer suffering from allergies! She is doing beautifully, is so much more comfortable and happy, and looks gorgeous now. But we had to change diet (food allergies), address inhalant and environmental allergies in care, and she receives Cytopoint injections — multipronged approach.

    in reply to: At my wits end #107298 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    You’re welcome, aimee. And thank you.

    Question for you regarding hydrolyzed diets:

    Do you happen to know if single hydrolyzed ingredients (therapeutic grade/quality) for use as primary protein sources in diets are available for use in home prepared therapeutic diets via veterinary nutritionists, ones who see small animal client cases?

    in reply to: At my wits end #107294 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Dharlee,

    I’m so glad you have some peace now and were able to at last get some sleep. Thank Heavens!

    I’m happy to hear your precious pooch got some TLC and direct vet attention, some relief for that inflamed tush, and your vet and were able to have a good discussion & arrive at a plan of action together.

    But oh my goodness, please, please do not beat yourself up about choices you’ve made up until now that have not worked out. Do not dwell or blame yourself. Do the opposite: give yourself a pat on the back and some credit. None of us is perfect and hindsight is 20/20! It is very apparent how much you love your dog, strive to provide the best care, & will do anything for him. Your dog is incredibly fortunate to have you!

    I really hope your dog now experiences relief, feels better via therapeutic, controlled diet in Ultamino. I additionally found what aimee shared encouraging, so I hope you will keep in mind the personal story she shared of a dog experiencing relief on this food along with the additional information, explanation of the product she presented. It should provide some reassurance and hope.

    When you’re in the thick of things, your dog is not doing well, and you’re at your wits’ end, it can be hard to see that there’s light at the end of the tunnel. But my dog came out on the other side, is now doing amazingly well, and so can yours.

    Wishing your dog continued improvement & you both all good things!

    p.s. I’m SO glad you’ve had a renewed really positive experience with your vet. That’s awesome. I totally hear you about how much it means to have her care so much about your dog, as I’ve had a very similar experience with my vet and it has meant a lot to me.

    in reply to: At my wits end #107292 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    aimee,

    Thank you so much for that explanation. It’s very helpful, new information I did not have.

    I think it’s interesting and cool.

    It’s been quite a while since the veterinary dermatologist here and my vet made recommendations and we chose an allergy diet for my dog. And since they didn’t recommend RC’s Ultamino to me, I don’t know whether it would have been explained to me as you just did. But I would hope so because what you’ve just explained in detail makes sense and presents a good argument for selecting this diet specifically.

    There are a number of things I like about this food, see a valuable, and things I don’t like, from what I do know about the food.

    And, yes, I find your posts informative and interesting! But I additionally appreciate you because of the way you approach consideration of diets and health, your willingness to share information and really help others, and courtesy on DFA.

    I hope you are well! Thanks again.

    in reply to: At my wits end #107244 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    No, I’m providing information, facts for Dharlee and anyone else who wishes to consider it.

    Many people on this site, where I have posted for years, are interested in AAFCO ingredient definitions and a given company’s particular ingredient selection/sourcing and manufacturing processes.

    I don’t know why you are particularly disturbed by the information above or find it anxiety exacerbating. I just presented facts. Personally, I was pleased and reassured by some of the information that Royal Canin so graciously provided. And I appreciated that RC was very nice & helpful.

    I have steadfastly encouraged this OP (as I do all others) to consult with her vet in determining how best to care for her dog, diagnose and treat her dog, and choose a diet. I encouraged her to forge and maintain a good open dialogue with her vet. I also recommended specialist consultation and recommended a good one, a board certified veterinary nutritionist Susan Wynn.

    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Just to be clear above — I’m “LOL” laughing at myself and my love of research, not anon101.

    I have been described recently by a friend as “Research is her middle name.” in explaining the information I provided for someone else (to assist a friend of a friend).

    Internet can be unclear, esp. among strangers, but no curtness or snark is intended on my end.

    GSDsForever
    Participant

    No, I’m not, regarding this.

    I’m pretty familiar with nutrition, nutritional components of foods, and fat composition/profiles of various oils and oil foods.

    It’s been necessary for me to know especially about Omega 3 for my own health and diet, as I have to be individually especially concerned with Omega 3 deficiency and sourcing, overconsumption of Omega 6 for myself.

    You are, of course, most welcome to find citations regarding the fat profile for soybean oil. (You might wish to compare it to canola.) As an academic, I always encourage research and evidence! LOL.

    As far as my dog goes w/respect to Omega 3, she receives a high therapeutic dose of EPA & DHA Omega 3 as prescribed by my vet, via Wild Alaskan Salmon Oil pumped onto her meals (company: Grizzly’s).

    in reply to: At my wits end #107214 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Here is more information on the product, in case it is useful to Dharlee (Deborah) and others:

    In this 16.9% protein/14.5% fat/4.2% fiber 313 cal/Cup food . . . .

    *The official AAFCO definition of “hydrolyzed poultry byproducts aggregate” includes “such parts as heads, feet, undeveloped eggs, intestines, feathers, and blood.” These may be “fermented” in manufacturing.

    *Royal Canin uses exclusively hydrolyzed bird feathers for “hydrolyzed poultry byproducts.”

    *The feathers RC uses are exclusively from chickens (as I noted above).

    *Compliant with the AAFCO defintion or the term “hydrolyzed poultry byproducts aggregate,” Royal Canin sources from slaughtered birds, “clean and undecomposed.”

    *Royal Canin does not source from any 4 D animals (dead, dying, diseased, disabled).

    *The #1 ingredient is corn starch. Royal Canin does not discriminate in sourcing whether corn is GMO Round Up Ready. As corn is now over 92% GMO (U.S.) if it is not labelled non-GMO (such as Non-GMO Project Verified) or organic certified, it is most likely GMO Round Up Ready sourced.

    *Coconut oil used is refined (for allergy purposes).

    *The #4 ingredient is soybean oil. Royal Canin does not discriminate in sourcing whether the soybean oil is from GMO Round Up Ready soybeans. As more than 94% of soybeans are now GMO if not labelled non-GMO (such as Non-GMO Project Verified) or organic certified, it is most likely GMO Round Up Ready sourced. The soybean oil is refined (for allergy purposes)

    *The fish oil (#13 ingredient) used is exclusively from wild caught anchovies.

    *Royal Canin uses veterinary nutritionists, who are all located in France.

    Source: phone call to Royal Canin

    ****At the time I called, information was not available how the oils were processed (i.e. via hexane solvent bath vs expeller extracted), how they were refined, and whether they were chemically deodorized or heat treated. I did not ask what RC uses for its “natural flavors” (#5 ingredient). I did not ask in this call further processing information, i.e. what temperature the food is cooked at or for how long, etc.

    in reply to: At my wits end #107212 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Hi all. I hope this serves to clarify, not add to any further confusion:

    Per Royal Canin, Anallergenic and Ultamino are one and the same product.

    Ultamino is the new name.

    Ultamino does use as its protein source hydrolyzed bird feathers under the AAFCO terms compliant ingredient listing “hydrolyzed poultry by-products aggregate.” For this ingredient, more specifically, Royal Canin uses exclusively chicken feathers.

    in reply to: At my wits end #107208 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Susan,

    Good catch! Thank you very much for the correction, re Anallergenic vs Ultamino.

    I know the one that was proposed to me by the veterinary receptionist was the formula containing hydrolyzed bird feathers — so that must be the one you have referred us to (“Anallergenic,” also by Royal Canin). It’s been so long ago and, as my actual vet and the specialist never recommended it to me, that I’d long since forgotten the formula name.

    I’ve just had so much success with the diet my vet and specialist did recommend to me, and w/the multi-prong approach we’ve taken for the care for my severely allergic dog (both food and inhalant/environmental allergies) that what we’ve been doing for the past couple years & the future are all I think about now. Thankfully, my GSD is doing beautifully now!

    I imagine this will be helpful to the OP/others who don’t wish to feed hydrolyzed bird feathers as the primary or sole protein source (or at all).

    Then they will need to determine whether they find acceptable feeding the hydrolyzed product of “poultry byproducts aggregate,” the particular formula, and from this company.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by GSDsForever.
    • This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by GSDsForever.
    in reply to: At my wits end #107206 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Dharlee (Deborah),

    Hey, I’m a little concerned re your discontinuing Apoquel. I’m hoping that you discussed this with your vet first?

    I really strongly recommend, in human medicine and veterinary care, that all persons alert their doctors first, discuss and seek medical advice and guidance, before discontinuing any medication.

    Wishing you well at your upcoming vet appointment! Hang in there.

    in reply to: At my wits end #107205 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    aimee,

    Nice to “see” you again. I enjoy reading your posts and really appreciate you on this forum.

    Question for you: if your wouldn’t mind, could you please explain what you mean in describing this diet as one of a kind, unique?

    If I’m reading you correctly — and please do correct me if I’m not! — you’re calling it unique due to the hydrolyzed protein. But there are several prescription diets out there based on hydrolyzed protein (chicken liver, soybean, etc.), and multiple brands, right?

    What am I missing?

    in reply to: I'm a new member joined the Forum hoping for help #107204 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    . . . in English, please? I don’t read Vietnamese.

    Thanks & welcome!

    GSDsForever
    Participant

    anon101 & all,

    Just a heads up that some of the statements, from the authors of the review above, are factually incorrect.

    “Unlike other oils (flax, canola, etc), soybean oil does not provide omega-3 fatty acids; However, the balancing omega-3 fatty acids are most likely supplied by another oil or fat source in the product.”

    This is not correct. Soybean absolutely contains Omega 3 fatty acids, a significant amount — specifically ALA (alpha linolenic acid) — along with other plant oil sources such as flax, hemp, canola. It also contains monounsaturated fat, saturated fat, and a high percentage of Omega 6 (linoleic acid).

    (Regarding Omega 3 EFAs, ALA is a precursor to the converted forms, Omega 3 EFAs EPA and DHA, as commonly found in fish. Dogs, however, do not efficiently convert ALA to EPA and DHA.)

    in reply to: At my wits end #107130 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    P.S. To Deborah —

    Sharing this anecodote in case it makes you feel better, not alone in your assessment of Royal Canin’s Ultamino:

    In the midst of my vet and I, also the specialist, trying to come up with a diagnostic plan for my dog when my dog was still struggling terribly with allergies (there’s light at the end of the tunnel and we’ve now reached it), the receptionist at the multi-vet practice mentioned, suggested trying Ultamino. She specifically mentioned this “bird feathers food,” said it was hydrolyzed, an allergy food that could really help and a couple clients were using it. She truly meant well. I knew that and so I thanked her.

    On the way home though I thought, you have got to be kidding, what will they (manufacturers/dog food companies) come up with next, yuck, not what I have in mind for providing the most high quality ingredients diet for my beloved dog! And I laughed, saying to my dog in the car: “You’re very lucky. Your mommy loves you too much to feed you bird feathers! You are soooo not going to be eating this. Don’t worry. It’s not happening.” LOL

    At home, out of curiosity and respect for the vet practice generally (& advances in science/evidence based diets), I looked it up, investigated it, and had many additional problems with its ingredients and overall formulation. They just do not meet my health & quality standards. And I remain unimpressed by their concept of hydrolyzing this specific primary protein source.

    But neither MY general vet there nor the specialist ever recommended to me this food. For that reason, I never needed to consider it (which I would have) or discuss it with my vet or the specialist. Instead, they recommended multiple other diets and equivalent alternatives.

    But if they had recommended to me, I would have had no problem at all raising each and every concern I had with the food. And I know that I would have been on solid ground doing so and trust that we would have had a good respectful discussion.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 4 months ago by GSDsForever.
    in reply to: At my wits end #107129 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    haleycookie,

    Thanks for the heads up regarding Chewy.com. Wow! Crazy, isn’t it, how careful and skeptical we have to be in reading websites/reviews?

    in reply to: At my wits end #107127 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Wow, lot of sharply divergent information, strong opinions, values, and emotions in this thread!

    I really feel for you Deborah. I can tell 100% that you love your dog very much, have been through and still are going through a lot, want and try to to the right thing — and wish to be respectful of your vet and others here & elsewhere.

    If I met you in person, I’d really love to sit down and just talk it through supportively.

    There’s so much in this thread to comment on. I’m going to presume, benefit of the doubt, that even where we disagree, that all here intend to be respectful and are motivated by sincere belief that they are giving you the best advice for your dog to be well. I wish to do the same.

    1)I don’t like/believe in/recommend Dynovite. I just don’t think it’s this amazing product or expenditure to accomplish what you/others want. I think it’s a gimmicky & an overhyped, overpriced product that is very trendy, convenient, readily available, & well-marketed to take advantage of people and their pets.

    I would eliminate it and start from scratch with a quality food. Supplement as needed.

    2)Royal Canin Ultamino — aka the hydrolyzed bird feathers food

    I 100% hear you & support you, agree with not wanting to feed this food. That SHOULD be okay. Honestly. Why? Because there absolutely are alternatives to it and the science/feeding strategy behind it is NOT unique on the market.

    Here’s the thing: a diet of hydrolyzed protein + very limited other ingredients, starch (no protein allergen), pure fats IS hypoallergenic, meaning LESS likely to trigger allergic food responses and/or food intolerance reactions. So that *type* of diet recommendation from a vet is a valid one.

    That said, THERE IS NOTHING SPECIAL OR NECESSARY OR BENEFICIAL about feeding specifically bird feathers or “poultry byproducts aggregate” as the protein source. It’s the hydrolyzed aspect of the protein ingredient that is key to hypoallergenic status. If your vet did not explain it well to you, food allergens are proteins, and a hydrolyzed ingredient has the protein (the allergen) broken down into much smaller components that are less likely to trigger the body’s recognition of the ingredient and allergic response.

    Other hydrolyzed diets, besides this one, may be fed. Other equally good options for feeding allergic dogs include limited protein, limited ingredient diets that exclude what your dog is allergic to if that is known or strongly suspected.

    Sometimes this is rather simple. In a dog that has eaten the same diet of chicken its whole life, for example, merely switching to a fish based food can work. When a variety of foods have been fed, with no relief/allergies continued, a novel protein limited ingredient diet is fed. “Novel” here simply means whatever YOUR dog has not had before, not anyone else’s. It is critical here that the diet you select has pristine quality control, takes rigorous steps in manufacturing or home preparation, to avoid cross-contaminating the diet with ingredients not listed on the label. Especially when it is not known what all your dog has been exposed to and may be allergic to, it may be best to to avoid the current known top allergens for dogs: chicken, beef, eggs, dairy, soy, wheat, corn — and now also fish, lamb (after these have become no longer “alternative” foods but commonplace to feed). For dogs that have been exposed to everything under the sun, a really unusual protein can be used (e.g. kangaroo, if elk/venison has been fed).

    A word of caution regarding OTC kibbles, cans, dehydrated/etc. products: In an OTC product vs alternatives of vet prescription commercial diets or homemade, you need to do your homework — research the food and ask pointed questions of the manufacturer and consider the actual plant that makes the food. Most people don’t do this, aren’t aware of the problem (trust the label too much) and many OTC commercial foods, including so-called limited ingredient diets, fail such cross-contamination quality control and therefore fail to provide relief (because the allergen is still being fed but not listed on the label). For a severely and genuinely allergic dog, this can be a nightmare — as tiny amounts can trigger the allergic response.

    I do find it odd — and perhaps I am missing something here — that your vet is proposing and insisting (as you say) upon this one food. That doesn’t make sense to me — not on any scientific, research & evidence, best practices basis — purely from what you’ve said here.

    What if this food stopped being manufactured tomorrow? What if it were recalled and therefore could not be recommended (temporarily)? What if your dog hated it and refused to eat it?

    Surely there are other foods you could purchase to accomplish the medical goals here. Surely you could also feed an appropriate homemade/home prepared diet. This leads me to my next part . . . .

    3)Vet-Client Relationship and Recommendations

    A good veterinarian-client relationship is one of mutual respect and two-way dialogue. That dialogue includes both sides considering and addressing what the other is saying. Both sides may raise valid points that are worthy of consideration, understanding, discussion.

    This means mutually asking and answering questions as necessary and respectfully, patiently making decisions TOGETHER in the best interest of the dog. Basing decisions upon careful consideration of facts and evidence, where things are explained and understood, still involves two way discussion. Some respect for the *values* of the pet owner, should be accorded by one’s vet, not to mention any actual fact based knowledge that a pet owner may have.

    As an example, I have expressed to my vet(s) that, aside from concerns about ingredient/formulation quality, I am not comfortable on ethical grounds (including documented animal cruelty discovered in feeding trials) in supporting a particular major dog food manufacturer. Both vets (over the years) I expressed this to were very respectful and open to alternatives selected together. One vet shared that she did not know about the issue and asked me further about it because it disturbed her too. (Vets are busy and, like all people, don’t hear about/read everything and miss things.)

    Similarly, my vet and I *discussed*, *considered* Apoquel (which you said you use) and Atopica for severe, unrelenting allergies and I ultimately rejected both after researching them. He was fully respectful of that. He never was pushy about either or any other course of action proposed. Later, when Cytopoint was recommended, I did choose to use this (again based on my research and discussion with the vet/vet staff) and have had great results.

    I appreciate that you like your vet otherwise, find her to be “nice.” But it sounds like more two-way discussion should be happening and alternatives considered.

    Conversely, as with human doctors, I strongly believe it is important that people see a vet that they trust — and then proceed to trust in what they say. By this I mean not that clients simply blindly and without discussion automatically do every single thing that their vet suggests or recommends, but that they seriously consider and respectfully attend to their recommendations, ask questions, try to understand, and reach good decisions TOGETHER. It’s a better course of action to propose major changes to one’s vet first, consider what she has to say & discuss, then take action than the other way around.

    If a client cannot trust her vet (or human doctor) or cannot have full, open discussion with them, then why would that client see that vet (or human doctor). And yet I know many people who do exactly this — and it is probably a frustrating experience for both sides.

    I see this come up, with dog owners I talk to, with vaccination schedules, heartworm prevention, and diet (including especially raw or homemade diets). And yet all of those topics are important and ones I expect to be able to discuss openly with my vet in full — and I do. If I can do it, you can do it.

    Without being there, since you like your vet, it sounds to me *possibly* that either more time needs to be spent with you on this topic or you might need to be more assertive, vocal yourself and ask questions — ask why just this food, what are alternatives, what about this or that food (why or why not), what about a trial on a different one, what about a homemade vet supervised diet (using a consult service w/veterinary nutritionist if necessary), and be just as persistent as she has been. Get the answers you need to make the best decision for your pet, based on multiple options and good information.

    ***IF*** you’re just going to your vet because she’s close by, out of habit/length of time seeing her with your pet and hesitant/uncomfortable leaving her for a new one, because she’s “nice” (even caring), but are NOT ultimately getting what you need from her medically — are not able to have a full & open discussion with her, have all your questions & concerns addressed, receive alternatives and options — then I would see a different vet.

    4)If your dog has more food intolerances, GI reactions to overall formulations, like too rich, etc., a sensitive digestive system more so than actual allergies, then there are foods very good for that that I would explore. These differ somewhat from strict allergy diets. Was your dog diagnosed with allergies or just sensitive tummy/touchy digestive system or food intolerances? Was a specialist consulted by your vet?

    Some foods appropriate to sensitive digestive systems are just bland and very moderate, conservative in overall nutrition profile/guaranteed analysis, and low residue (meaning highly digested and low poop).

    I’ve known people to switch from diets marketed explicitly for this purpose, prescribed even, to Fromm’s (and Fromm is a great company, with an excellent longterm record of quality control) Whitefish formula and it’s been exceptionally well tolerated by their dogs. It’s bland, not rich, and has quality ingredients. That’s just one example. There are other choices. Wellness Simple and Nutrisource come to mind, also Go! Sensitivity and Shine.

    5)Homemade diets

    If this interests you, your vet should be helping you and supportive, as it can be done.

    Your vet should be able to provide a free, published balanced diet appropriate to your dog’s needs/condition, minimally consult (sometimes this is free) with a specialist colleague, OR full blown consult (for a fee) or outright refer you to go see a specialist in nutrition who will design you a diet or multiple meals you can safely feed.

    Similarly, regarding that itchy skin/allergies, your vet can consult and discuss a case — often for free — with a veterinary dermatologist (specialist) or outright refer you to see one. Has your vet done this? If not, why not? If you have reached the point that you are trying so many diets, things, experienced such a range of symptoms over time, dog taking Apoquel, your vet insisting upon RC Ultamino now, consulting/referral would conform to best practices.

    If money is really tight and you don’t have dog insurance (or coverage), there are both free board certified veterinary nutritionist/other credentialed authored single diets available on the web as well as one entire book of therapeutic veterinary diets (from UC Davis) now freely available on the web.

    Personally, if you want to go the route of an actual veterinary nutritionist helping your dog, I would recommend (for many reasons) a long distance consult with board certified veterinary nutritionist Susan Wynn (unless you are in Atlanta, in which case you can see her in person). It’s about $300. She will consult with generalist vets long distance, which not all veterinary nutritionists will do.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 4 months ago by GSDsForever.
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Oops! I sooooo did not catch in my skim read through the thread that “anon101” explicitly recommended “Fat Dogs.” My apologies. Therefore, let me SECOND the recommendation — with good multi-vet support and client results to back it.

    Honestly, with people using it for their dogs, I’ve/they’ve not encountered any side effects from this food in those pets like diarrhea/bowel problems. Just excellent, speedy weight loss and full, satisfied dogs.

    I’d give it a shot if what you’ve tried thus far hasn’t netted results.

    (Hate that title, btw, but I guess it quickly gets the point across! lol. But imagine the uproar if a food for human children was marketed by that name!!!)

    p.s. Susan also mentioned green beans. I was surprised to find, after vet recommendation, that my dog just loves them, raw (crispy, crunchy) even, esp. when I buy the bags of thin fresh ones from farmer’s market/produce grocery.

    Another idea for you, re the foraging (which, like you, I would let her do): sprinkle some green beans around your grounds maybe?

    Subtract an estimated calorie count from treats/foraging outside from her total calories allowed per day when determining cups of food. That will help a lot.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 4 months ago by GSDsForever.
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Chris,

    I’m just seeing this. But I thought I’d throw in a few more suggestions, as they’re not mentioned above.

    My vet recommends green beans as a treat or added ingredient to food — including for weight loss, satiety filling up on low calories (raw or cooked). Many people here buy the giant organic frozen bag Costco sells — such a deal!

    If you are able to afford it, Zeal from Honest Kitchen is a food I’d strongly explore using, try. VERY low fat, high protein. Excellent ingredients, quality sourcing & quality control, from a great company. Caveat: Yes, higher calories — but you would just feed less of it, and add in healthy veggies/fruit (low cal, low fat, non-sugary/starchy) for desired bulk/satiety.

    “Fat Dogs” by Natural Balance is a dry food some good vet practices — ones that otherwise promote & sell higher end “health food” commercial brands of dog food — prescribe to clients with overweight dogs and get compliance and excellent results quickly. Extremely low calorie (250 cal/Cup), very low fat (7.5%), pretty good to decent ingredients. Well worth considering, trying — esp. for short term, quick weight loss.

    Anything you feed, remember that you will have the best results from monitoring & tightly controlling overall calories in a day, feeding (w/vet advice, supervision) UNDER what is recommended for your dog’s weight, and increased regular EXERCISING your dog with you.

    in reply to: Changing up dog food #106743 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Cathy,

    I agree with suggestions to feed a variety of food, ingredients across a lifetime. I also believe fresh foods, homemade feeding with high quality ingredients you can select/control can provide the best diet.

    The idea behind these two things is the same as striving for optimal health in a human by eating a variety of healthful foods with various health benefits — nutrients, antioxidants and anti-cancer, immune system boosting foods, etc.

    The truth is we really don’t know enough about all the things that produce more long lived, optimally healthy dogs. We don’t know nearly enough — and the research is far more limited in dogs & cats than for humans — about all the things that contribute to increased cancer risks or that prevent cancer, despite the very high percentage of dogs & cats that get cancer and that die from cancer. Personally, I incorporate what I know from human information on diet for cancer preventative, immune system boosting, anti-viral, etc. foods and environmental toxins and from past experience with a veterinary cancer specialist.

    As Haley noted, dogs can and do commonly develop allergies to repeat insult/exposure of foods. There is veterinary research to support that.

    With my food allergy dog, I currently cautiously add hypoallergenic health-promoting wholesome fresh fruits, veggies, quality oils to my dog’s commercial LID (novel protein) dry + canned diet. I needed to get her stabilized and healthy first.

    But I eventually plan to move toward feeding, under veterinary specialist supervision & direction, a rotating mix of balanced homemade meals. If that kind of thing interests you, the vet nutrition specialist (board certified) I would recommend is Susan Wynn; she can consult with your vet long distance.

    As far as how quickly to switch, that really depends on the individual dog and breed (some are touchier digestively than others), whether you are switching to a much richer (much higher protein and/or fat) food or one with very different or special ingredients that might cause upset, etc.

    in reply to: Zignature Serving Size #106740 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    I feed Zignature and agree w/both anon & haley, see the same recommended range amount for a 30 lb dog on my bag.

    I would also encourage you to feed for ideal body condition scoring (and, if still a puppy, slow, controlled growth) in your individual dog, considering all the calories you provide (treats, supplements included). If you are not practiced in evaluating this (9 pt or 5 pt scale), ask your vet to assess/score your dog.

    Don’t just go by food manufacturer general recommendations on a bag.

    in reply to: Puppy Scratching #106730 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Ivy,

    This article from a board certified veterinary dermatologist (specialist), discussing itchy dogs and allergies might also be helpful:

    http://beta.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?pId=17256&catid=93480&id=4951526

    Good luck!

    in reply to: Puppy Scratching #106721 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Ivy,

    If helpful to you, the shampoo & treatment rinse I use are Tropiclean’s OxyMed. And I keep on hand and occasionally use the companion OxyMed anti-itch spray.

    My vet & I like these, and they have been covered by my doggie health insurance (along with the Omega 3 and Cytopoint).

    I use a (privately available) show coat conditioner additionally, between baths diluted spray of the same, that’s hypoallergenic also. But that’s more just to combat dry skin (particular to my breed & environment) and help maintain a gorgeous soft, shiny coat.

    in reply to: Puppy Scratching #106719 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    “Vet says he’s too young for allergy.”

    I have had multiple dogs with allergies, food and otherwise, been advised by specialists and excellent experienced general practice vets, as well as done my own judicious research and I have NEVER heard that from any source. I would question that.

    While my current dog has had the most challenging to figure out and overcome allergies I have personally encountered, she is now doing exceptionally well. We (my vet & I) have used a multi-pronged approach for this dog that has both food and environmental allergies.

    I agree w/anon — see a different vet, get a second opinion and get an accurate diagnosis based on good, solid veterinary knowledge and experience, a specialist as needed. Ask for a referral to the specialist if necessary. A good generalist vet should be happy to refer.

    Pitlove also makes a good point. Fleas aren’t a big challenge where I live, but I do know that flea bite allergies (even from a single flea when you don’t see fleas, flea dirt) are a major cause of allergies/itching for many dogs.

    This is the protocol for my dog, some or all of which may be helpful to your dog if you haven’t tried something (or the combined approach):

    1)DIET
    Novel Protein (10-12 weeks to see results) Limited Ingredient Diet — homemade or from a company with very strict allergen/cross-contamination AND NOT ONE DEMONSTRATED IN VET JOURNALS TO BE CROSS-CONTAMINATED ALREADY (Royal Canin, Natural Balance, Nature’s Variety/Instinct, et. al.)

    — and ABSOLUTELY NO treats, supplements, “real”/”people” food, medicines (i.e. heartworm preventatives), or even chew/dental toys (i.e. Nylabone) that contain the established top food ingredient allergens for dogs (beef, chicken, fish, eggs, dairy, wheat, soy, corn). I treat w/her actual food or low allergen potential real food (i.e. blueberries, green beans, watermelon)

    ***Because I feed kangaroo — having needed a more unusual, rare protein source — I feed Zignature Kangaroo LID (GF) dry & canned food.

    I also supplement, per vet prescription, Omega 3 EPA & DHA at a high, therapeutic/condition treating dose daily for anti-inflammatory effects, plus skin, coat, brain benefits — and I use Grizzly’s Wild Alaskan Salmon Oil in pump bottle.

    2)ENVIRONMENT:

    a)Frequent thorough bathing w/very hypoallergenic and gentle shampoo & skin soothing, skin repairing/barrier protective, etc. ingredients

    b)frequent washing of dog’s bedding, etc. in hypoallergenic laundry detergent

    c)frequent vaccuuming (pollen, dust/particulates, etc.)

    d)hypoallergenic wet wipes wipe down of whole dog, especially paws (or dunking/rinsing paws off), after all walks & trips outside (pollen, dust/particulates, etc.)

    Finally — consider & don’t overlook your own personal care/cleaning products that may cause allergic responses in your dog.

    3)Cytopoint (aka CADI) injections, every 4-8 weeks as needed, seasonally or otherwise

    I researched, considered, and rejected two other rx allergy/itch meds, Apoquel and Atopica.

    I also researched and considered trials of 4 (recommended #) OTC antihistamines (e.g. benadryl, zyrtec/cetirizine).

    I tried the above all in that order, before adding the next step.

    We also tried once, but didn’t receive good relief and diagnostic results from a steroid injection — to see if she had seasonal environmental only allergies vs. food/combination.

    in reply to: Interceptor #89173 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Yes — to the person who asked about food allergies; chicken or beef (or whatever) flavoring is an issue for a dog with the corresponding food allergy.

    To all, in case this helps:

    I used to use Interceptor, due to greater comfort with it regarding MDR1 with *some* herding breeds (and a couple others) and individuals. I think it’s really important to test in breeds/mixes with a significant portion affected.

    While I currently have a non-MDR1 affected dog and use Ivermectin (only), I have it compounded to exact weight/needs from a reputable compounding pharmacy I trust . . . which lowers the toxicity. “Monthly” pills can also be given every 6 weeks, also to lower toxicity (minimize how many are given); this can be a good idea in hot climates where it needs to be given essentially year round. They will compound meds, including “monthly” heartworm disease preventatives, to specification into any form, with or without flavoring/additives.

    Due to food allergies, I have mine placed unflavored in vegicaps (as gelatin contains unspecified animal derived protein, potentially food allergen). It is TINY, and I just toss it in the evening food (stew).

    Has Interceptor (not the Plus) come back out onto the market yet??

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by GSDsForever.
    • This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by GSDsForever.
    in reply to: Raw food diet and weight loss #89171 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Just another thought, in case it is helpful: have you thought about getting a nutrition consult from a veterinary nutrition specialist (board certified) or specialty center, via your vet?

    They’re not all anti-raw (etc.) and some will evaluate both particular commercial diets and homemade, as well as help you design a solid homemade one (or rotation) to your preferences, that will work best for your individual dog’s needs . . . whether allergies or low weight/trouble putting on and maintaining weight, etc.

    in reply to: Raw food diet and weight loss #89170 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Be careful with just following the feeding guidelines on commercial foods vs by calorie and individual monitoring of your dog’s body condition scoring/needs — and Ziwi Peak if that’s what you feed.

    While many kibbles tend to overestimate calorie needs/cups to feed, I’ve found many raw and freeze dried or dehydrated ones tend to vastly underestimate/recommend. I suspect this is true for the latter because the companies are aware that their products can seem exorbitant, even cost prohibitive for larger dogs. In particular, I’ve had this discussion with Ziwipeak, because their amounts to feed/calories recommended made absolutely no sense for my dog (or breed generally, esp if working).

    I’m far from a raw diet (various styles) expert, but from experience with homemade/home prepared with fresh foods and balanced . . . could you not simply boost the fat content by adding from a wholesome source yourself?

    Most healthy dogs can do quite well on higher fat diets (as shown by veterinary nutrition research on dogs and wildlife research).

    in reply to: what type of dog food #89168 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Hi Brandon. Have you had a chance to look through the 4 and 5 star foods here? Checked them out locally/via online etailers (or direct buy), asked for samples?

    What have you tried so far? Do you have brands in mind?

    I don’t think there’s one best dog food out there for all dogs (and if someone tells you there is, be very suspicious! 😉 ). Neither is that commonly suggested by longtime posters here.

    Rather, we can often tell you what has worked for our dogs and why, and what we look for and value in feeding. All other things being equal (but that is a BIG caveat), ideally I personally prefer a well-designed homemade diet of fresh foods with high quality ingredients.

    If a kibble, I have brands I prefer and brands I don’t for a number of reasons. But I have a GSD. And, honestly, I’ve fostered a Siberian mix, and found her diet, exercise needs, training needs very different from GSDs and tending-herding breeds — more familiar to me.

    As far as pickiness goes, while the samples should help, in a medium to large (or giant) breed, I don’t allow pickiness. I take into account preferences, but I don’t let my dogs get super fussy/demanding and dictate what I feed (without good cause . . . like cancer) and don’t recommend it. Feed 2-3 x day and pick up the bowl after 10-15 minutes.

    Does your pup put on weight easily or stay lean?

    in reply to: Large and Giant Breed Puppy Nutrition #88343 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Posting this 2013 article from DVM DACVN* (board certified veterinary nutritionist) Susan Wynn, in case it hasn’t already been posted or read:

    (The whole website page has food information, discussion, recommendations for feeding large breed puppies. But scroll to the very bottom for the Susan Wynn vet journal article.)

    http://valorgoldens.com/foodsupplements/2411-2/

    Or click on these to read only Wynn’s article:

    http://valorgoldens.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/food-lg-breed-1.jpg

    http://valorgoldens.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/food-lg-breed-2.jpg

    http://valorgoldens.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/food-lg-breed-3.jpg

    http://valorgoldens.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/food-lg-breed-4.jpg

    *double board certified

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by GSDsForever.
    in reply to: 10 week old Dog De Bordeaux puppy… #68276 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Suzette,

    That’s great if your pup is not genetically predisposed, as you can tell from looking at a 4-5 generation pedigree showing the dogs it was bred from have hip clearances/certifications. It is unfortunate but true that being a champion in any breed, or even a top producing champion in a given breed, does not necessarily mean the dog’s hips are good or even were evaluated.

    Perhaps I have misunderstood you or we are miscommunicating, but I’m not sure I understand what genetic testing you’re referring to that would tell you at 10 weeks or earlier that a pup’s hips & elbows are fine. OFA prelims occur at 1 yr, with full certification at 2 yrs. Other countries, such as Germany with the “a” stamp & ratings or former OVC in Canada (etc.), also evaluate dogs at 1+ years. Penn Hip, which judges hip laxity, may be done at 16 weeks at the earliest.

    Anyway, I am in much the same boat as you as I have been waiting for a large breed puppy for the past 2 years, going through good breeders who health and temperament test all their breeding stock and title their dogs and have had to wade through pedigrees myself. And I will be having to do the same thing, choosing a good selection of large breed appropriate foods and watch activity/exercise during growth, also decide how long to delay neuter/spay since this also affects proper structural development.

    Anyway, congrats and good luck again with your puppy! 🙂

    in reply to: 10 week old Dog De Bordeaux puppy… #68220 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    Congratulations on your new puppy! Good for you in wanting to provide a good diet & care for him.

    When feeding a large or giant breed, particularly one especially prone to structural development problems, I would exercise extreme caution in diet & exercise/movement restrictions during growth and make that my priority.

    French Mastiffs (or Dogue de Bordeaux) have a rate of more than 50% of individuals having hip dysplasia, per the OFA. This is one of the highest of all breeds.

    Most of this is genetically inherited, and so much of your risk depends upon the breeder of your puppy & the 4-5 generation pedigree behind him (& their littermates), the percentage OFA’d (or given a similar non-U.S. normal rating).

    So I would look for foods like on HDM’s DFA list that have appropriate total calcium & calcium to phosphorous ratios. You also want to carefully avoid over feeding, feed to keep your pup on the skinny side & with frequent weight checks to ensure that your pup does not grow too fast. But I would also recommend to you that you get in touch with breeders of your breed who have been breeding a long time & have had an excellent track record of producing dogs with normal hips & feeding for normal hips. Beyond diet it will be important to take care with the type of exercise and amount — again following successful breeders’ recommendations and researched guidelines.

    Good luck and welcome!

    in reply to: Fish Oil Dosage? #68203 Report Abuse
    GSDsForever
    Participant

    I was advised by my vet to give a dose with a bare minimum 1500 EPA mg for a 76 lb young dog for dry itchy skin/coat, degenerative joint disease.

    I prefer to use Grizzly’s Wild Alaskan Salmon Oil, and that is about 5 pumps/day over food of a 16-32 Oz pump bottle in my fridge. I love this brand.

    This is in addition to high Omega 3, low ratio Omega 3 to 6 food.

    I tried another brand when it was donated to a dog as rescue foster, also wild Alaskan salmon, but the Omega 3 content was much lower as were the EPA & DHA. And it was smellier. My only *guess* for VERY different Omega 3 content was different varieties of wild salmon used.

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