[Robert B]

I own a 9-1/2 year old Australian Shepherd. I do not use “senior” dog food formulations mostly because many of them reduce their kcal/cup for older, more sedentary dogs by reducing the crude protein and fat content. I just use good all stage dog foods but consider a reduced kcal/day requirement. When my dog was younger an 1,100 kcal/day was required to maintain his weight. Today about 900 kcal/day is all that is required.

Regarding supplements, I do use two types because while the foods that I use are balanced, I am uncertain of the amounts actually remaining based on his daily weight based feeding in his kibble post processing even though some are listed as ingredients.

VetriScience Laboratories Glycoflex Everyday – My dog shows no symptoms yet of joint pain, but this is given as a joint pain preventative before joint degeneration occurs. It contains a combination of the active of green lipped mussels, glucosamine hci and N ,N-Dimethylglycine HCl.

VetriScience Laboratories Derma Strength – this is a skin an coat supplement with omega 3, 6 and 9. These are also systemic anti inflammatories.

Good Luck….

[Patricia A]

Joanne true about affordability is a big reason for feeding kibble especially to larger dogs. But I can see no reason why kibble can’t be supplemented with some whole meat food.I’ve posted this so many times I’m sick of myself writing it. How hard or costly is it to buy a little extra chicken breasts or lean beef etc. and add at times to a little less kibble? I have small dogs so the freeze dried such as Primal isn’t breaking the bank but I can understand it would be very costly for larger dogs. The raw is less costly though and doesn’t contain peas, potatoes etc.
People looking for a healthy diet for their dog will never find it in any kibble. It’s like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

[anonymous]

I have never tried any supplements for coprophagia, the price deterred me and the fact that they look like chemical junk? Also, you would have to give them to every dog in your household, plus I have heard that they don’t work.
PS: Has the vet ruled out medical issues? Good article here : http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/dog-behavior/coprophagia-eating-feces (excerpt below)
Medical Problems to Rule Out
Starvation, Malnutrition or Malabsorption Disorders
If your dog isn’t getting sufficient food or isn’t able to digest the nutrition in his food, he may resort to coprophagia as a way to supplement his diet. Before doing anything else, it’s important to have your dog thoroughly examined by a veterinarian to rule out medical problems that could cause coprophagia.

[Christopher F]

This product caused a serious adverse reaction in my dog, the company continues to charge my account on a recurring fee.

I tried Nutra Thrive a month ago after reading all of the great reviews and watching a compelling video. Just like anybody who would use this product, my dog’s health is a very high priority. And that’s exactly what this company preys on. People like me who would pay just about anything for my dog’s well-being are complete suckers for this product. It’s a waste of money (there are others that are a fraction of the price) and it’s dangerous. I have the vet bill to prove it.

The first day I added it to his food, I let my dog smell it before I sprinkled it into the bowl. He turned away immediately. It smelled like grass actually. It turned the food a dark green color when mixed in, as well, but I wasn’t concerned about that. My dog was a bit resistant to eat at first, but he acclimated.

After about a week on the product, my dog began scratching persistently, rubbing on furniture, and shaking his head. I didn’t suspect the Nutra Thrive at first, and gave my dog a bath. The bath did not relieve the itching. After three days, the symptoms were so severe, he wasn’t eating or sleeping. I took him to my veterinarian on an emergency visit, and I brought the Nutra Thrive with me, because nothing in the environment or his food was changed, except for the Nutra Thrive. When I showed it to my veterinarian, he told me to immediately discontinue use, and my dog was having a severe allergic reaction. Nutra Thrive isn’t based on science, rather it’s based on Dr. Richter’s personal experience.

He treated my dog with allergy shots and prescribed an ointment for his infected ear. After a few days off Nutra Thrive, he returned to normal, and his ear was healed up in about a week. Luckily, my dog is ok now. Although I have two unopened jars at home, I put this all behind me and moved on, until today.

Today, I received an email, confirming that ANOTHER order (that I DID NOT ORDER) has been shipped. According to USPS, the shipment had not yet been received by USPS when I checked the tracking number., though.

First, I didn’t / wouldn’t order this product again, and I wouldn’t need any, even if I did want to re-order. My dog is 30 pounds. Three jars is a three month supply. So if I were to reorder, I wouldn’t have needed another shipment until September. When I contacted customer service and told them I didn’t order this and my account should not have been charged, they hung up on me – TWICE.

When I called the third time, a gentleman told me that he’d have to send a return authorization form and I’ll have to mail the product when I receive it – even though USPS hadn’t even picked it up from their warehouse yet. I pointed out that USPS shows that it hasn’t even been scanned yet, so it must still be at their facility. He said he’d try a pre-ship cancellation, but didn’t think it would work. (What???)

I explained that I was unhappy with the product, and that it caused a severe reaction in my dog. He said he’s received training on Adverse Event Reporting, but had never heard of any reactions like this. He didn’t take an Adverse Event Report for this event.

I work with the US FDA on a daily basis, and I’m well versed in adverse event reporting requirements. I was surprised that the gentleman who took my call chose not to complete the AER. If your dog or cat experiences any kind of reaction after starting this supplement, you should discontinue use immediately. Adverse reactions to food and food supplements should be reported to the manufacturer AND to the US FDA. If your pet has experienced issues with this supplement, please submit a complaint on the FDA website in the Pet Food Safety Reporting Portal. https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/report-problem/how-report-pet-food-complaint

The customer service representative also told me that I was (unknowingly) subscribed to receive monthly shipments. I never saw anything indicating I would be receiving monthly shipments, or I wouldn’t have ordered it. My bank told me about this type of scam in the past. They see this all the time. Companies will put in the fine print that you’re subscribing to something and you end up with monthly charges on your account.

I only live at the address they’re shipping to part-time. I won’t even be here when it does arrive, so they’ll leave it at the door where it’ll sit for around 10 days, unless it’s stolen first.

My Advice:
1. I do not recommend this product. Please consult your vet and discuss the ingredients before you try this product.
2. If your pet has experienced any type of adverse reaction, please submit a report to the US FDA Pet Food Safety Reporting Portal.
3. If you order anything from this company, be sure to read the fine print. They will charge you monthly. Be prepared to deal with rude customer service representatives, and uncooperative people. The gentleman I spoke with was very polite and professional, although he failed to take an Adverse Event Report, and did not inform me of the 90 Day guarantee.

[Joyce B]

Please check out Canine Kidney Disease Facebook Group. It’s a public group so you can browse it without joining if you prefer. There are many very knowledgeable folks on there willing to help. Some feed prescription food, some don’t. With kidney disease the appetite can get very poor and many dogs won’t go near the prescription stuff. There are low-phosphorus food ideas, as well as supplement recommendations. For example, many have had success with Azodyl. Best of luck to you!

[Vicki B]

His oncologist does not recommend any kind of special diet. After doing my own research on this website and others, I would like to alter/supplement his diet in the best possible way. That is why I was asking for Best dog food for Kidney Disease recommendations.

[Shayne, Ultimate Pet Nutrition]

Hi Jill, Shayne here! Thank you for e-mailing me directly, I wanted to confirm that I responded to your e-mail. Please let me know if you did not receive it. This is not a typical reaction to Nutra Thrive, so I’d like to make sure that you consulted your dog’s primary physician. You can show your Vet our full list of ingredients (Found on our website) and they can determine if Nutra Thrive is the best option for your dog. I also wanted to mention that because Nutra Thrive contains probiotics, it is possible for dogs to experience die-off symptoms. Die-off symptoms occur when the bad bacteria inside of the body is killed off. The bacteria releases toxins which makes the body work harder to release those toxins. And as with all supplements, we do understand that it may work well for some and not for others. You have my e-mail address, so let me know if you’d like me to issue you a full refund. I’ll keep a look out for your correspondence!

[anonymous]

/forums/topic/supplement-nutra-thrive/#post-142561

https://nutrathrivedogs.com/ excerpt below
“Dr. Gary Richter developed Nutra Thrive with one goal in mind — to give your pet everything it needs to live a long, healthy life”.

[anonymous]

https://ultimatepetnutrition.com/product/nutra-thrive-dog/

Scroll down to find the ingredients and note the disclaimer at the end.

“However, we always recommend consulting with your veterinarian before beginning any new supplement”.

Let us know what the emergency vet says, it may help another dog from becoming sick.

[anonymous]

$188.97 USD ??? Where are the ingredients?
Please take the dog to a vet asap and find out what is wrong with him.
STOP THE SUPPLEMENT.

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2018/05/whos-behind-the-the-truth-about-pet-cancer/ excerpt below,
scan through the article to find more info on this doctor and many others that push these alternative treatments.
Gary Richter
Dr. Richter is yet another integrative veterinarian, mixing science-based medicine with untested or quack therapies freely and claiming to be selecting the best of both. I’ve discussed elsewhere why this is a successful marketing approach but not actually a sound way to determine which treatments work and which don’t. Dr. Richter’s approach treats his personal anecdotal experience and controlled scientific research as equivalent, thus missing the entire point of science. As he says in advertising his book, “Each treatment recommended in this book has the backing of scientific research OR years of successful outcomes his clinical practice.” [emphasis added]
Dr. Richter includes acupuncture, chiropractic, stem cell therapy, PEMF, herbs, and unconventional nutrition among his list of alternative practices. He’s also a prominent advocate for cannabis in pets. Despite being less opposed to conventional medicine than many alternative practitioners, he seems perfectly comfortable making confident claims about the safety and efficacy of untested therapies based only on opinion and anecdote, which is the fundamental difference between science-based medicine and faith-based alternative medicine.

PS: If you can find the ingredients you may want to call a Pet Poison Control number to be on the safe side.
Or call the nearest emergency vet in your area and see what they advise.

[Jill M]

I am really concerned about this product. I have a 15 year old terrier mix. He is slowing down and has arthritis issues. I started him on this supplement 6 days ago. Everyday he has been vomiting and gagging around 3-4 hours after eating since I started him on this. I feed him twice a day. There was no instructions to splitting the dose. At first I gave all in the morning. Then I split it, half morning and half evening. He is under 30 pds so just half scoop twice a day. Is this a normal thing for his system to get use to?

[Vicki B]

My 11 yr old Cocker has kidney disease and had a kidney removed in April ’19. He is fed Holistic Select Adult Anchovy & Sardine and Salmon Meal Recipe along with a Salmon oil Supplement & (1) Nutramax Dasuquin with MSM daily. Is this the Best Dog for kidney Disease?

[Patricia A]

I’m on this board frequently and just would like some opinions if these ingredients look okay, good, excellent? As I’ve written on this board ad nauseam I have Chihuahuas’ and use kibble as a small base atop freeze dried in different brands and proteins as well as toppers of home cooked in between, I’ve been using grain free for years so don’t know what to look for in a grain inclusive as this one is.

Responsibly sourced animal proteins – cage-free & grass-fed
Potato-free & poultry-free options
Wholesome grains including brown rice, pearled barley, oatmeal, quinoa and millet
Made in the USA with no ingredients from China
Rich in Omegas for healthy skin and coat
Strong levels of glucosamine & chondroitin to help maintain hip and joint function
High quality proteins for lean muscle mass
No corn, wheat or soy protein
Chicken, chicken meal, pearled barley, oatmeal, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), brown rice, natural chicken flavor, tomato pomace, flaxseed, millet, chicken liver, quinoa, calcium carbonate, dicalcium phosphate, potassium chloride, salt, suncured alfalfa meal, salmon oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols), inulin (from chicory root), pumpkin, blueberries, taurine, tocopherols (preservative), thyme, sage, choline chloride, dried kelp, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, copper proteinate, manganese proteinate, sodium selenite, calcium iodate, vitamin E supplement, thiamine mononitrate, niacin supplement, d-calcium pantothenate, riboflavin supplement, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, rosemary extract.

Product Analysis:
Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein (min)25.00%Crude Fat (min)15.00%Crude Fiber (max)5.00%Moisture (max)10.00%Omega 6 Fatty Acids* (min)3.50%Omega 3 Fatty Acids* (min)0.50%Taurine* (min)0.20%Glucosamine* (min)800 mg/kgChondroitin Sulfate*800 mg/kgCalorie Content3,750 Kcal/kg
382 Kcal/cup

No by-product meal
Guaranteed Taurine levels
Complete & balanced for all life stages less large breed puppy

• This topic was modified 6 years, 5 months ago by Patricia A.

[pugmomsandy]

I haven’t free fed supplements but followed a recipe book for a vit/min mix to add to meals.

[AdinaFay]

Hey all,
Has anyone ever tried or looked into free-feeding supplements to their pooch that’s on a homemade or raw diet? I’m interested in if this has been done before or if there is a specific reason that it is /not/ done. It’s (at least as far as I am aware) standard practice for livestock and horses, and most dogs/cats will already self-regulate to a certain extent with behaviors such as grass-eating.

Background:
After struggling for two years with my 8lb mix’s allergies I’m committing to an elimination diet and, since that will be a long process of me making his meals, am also looking into proper balancing of homemade and raw meals. I don’t want to go a pre-made/balanced route because, at least for the first few months, they would defeat the point of the diet. I understand the concepts of balancing the diet as a whole, took animal nutrition in college, and am confident that I can create a menu that serves him well. However, I also understand how and why the AAFCO standards exist and I like the concept of him having access to additional supplements should he need them without me risking over-dosing him by providing a daily vitamin along with a diet that is well-balanced.

Thanks in advance for any input!

(X-posted in the supplements forum)

• This topic was modified 4 years ago by Mike Sagman. Reason: Fix Duplicate Topic Title

[AdinaFay]

Hey all,
Has anyone ever tried or looked into free-feeding supplements to their pooch that’s on a homemade or raw diet? I’m interested in if this has been done before or if there is a specific reason that it is /not/ done. It’s (at least as far as I am aware) standard practice for livestock and horses, and most dogs/cats will already self-regulate to a certain extent with behaviors such as grass-eating.

Background:
After struggling for two years with my 8lb mix’s allergies I’m committing to an elimination diet and, since that will be a long process of me making his meals, am also looking into proper balancing of homemade and raw meals. I don’t want to go a pre-made/balanced route because, at least for the first few months, they would defeat the point of the diet. I understand the concepts of balancing the diet as a whole, took animal nutrition in college, and am confident that I can create a menu that serves him well. However, I also understand how and why the AAFCO standards exist and I like the concept of him having access to additional supplements should he need them without me risking over-dosing him by providing a daily vitamin along with a diet that is well-balanced.

Thanks in advance for any input!

[Albert S]

Struggling in losing weight? Try out liquid weight loss supplements at home. My brother is taking B12 Lipo Shots and he lost 3 lbs in a week but the secret formula to achieve weight loss goals is to take supplements with a healthy diet. With improper diet, you may have low energy levels. There are no side effects get it without a doctor prescription. https://buymicb12.com/

[Caroline B]

For those of you having the sawdust on water problem, it happens with too much water. To explain, occasionally in shipping, as an ex over-the-road trucker of the 48 states and after hauling refrigerated loads (some just for optimal temperature) I’ve seen what happens to some bagged products. In different states there’s super high humidity, and shipping isn’t perfect, with loading docks, warehouses, and the final delivery truck that’s probably not air conditioned. In the 2 to 7 days it ships to you, it may have encountered a bit of condensation in the bag! It’s still sealed and I’ve had no bad side effects to my little dog. She was dying from a major brand that showed up one day like poison. Avoderm. 10 or 15 years ago it saved my husky shepherd chows. But they sold out. Previous bags were just ok, and this one nearly killed my little dog. Marty’s saved her. She would drink it if it were floating! Your dog is the best judge, so watch for the happy dog response. I got it and am thrilled. But, if your kibble shows up and is cool to the touch, it may have absorbed a bit of water in transit! The bag I have like this, I just put barely enough water over to soak it. And it doesn’t fluff up no matter how long I wait because it already did. I think the 4 cups in a dry bag is closer than the 7 cups hydrated they’ve talked about, but since she’s only 12 lbs I just give her a small handful a day. I supplement with a grocery store kibble and cans for now because I’m broke, but the $30 bag will last her a long time. I can’t afford to give it to the big dog, but I’ll treat him with a couple kernels now and then. Even the cat attacks me for it! I’ve smashed one kibble for him in a few drops of water a couple times. There’s cheaper but I haven’t switched, and there’s way better kibble but there’s so many recalls. Avoderm isn’t the first sell out. Seems like the expensive good brands take turns building a customer base and then selling out. It’s scary to use them now, in this economy they’re all trying to make money, and I can never guess who’s next! But I’ll try another month. For now my little dog is on the mend using very little! (But the recommended amount leaves her hungry and begging like crazy, my dogs are used to feeders!)

[Therese M]

I adopted a mixed breed puppy about a year ago. She is a mix of German Shorthaired Pointer, Chocolate Lab and I think maybe Pit. Ever since we have had her, we have had issues with her glands. She does not really scoot. But she will be lying down and all of a sudden it squirts out on its own and stinks. I have been adding canned pumpkin, apple and canned green beans to her food. She is on ProPlan Puppy Shredded Chicken. Any suggestions. I have seen suggestions to get her on a probiotic supplement or even add bananas, pears and olive oil to her diet. Then I have seen posts about changing her dog food to something that is not chicken. Lots of information out there. Any suggestions?

[Sanne]

Hmm sorry if this double posts… my post disappeared after submitting

Senior foods really do not have anything special about them compared to adult foods. In fact, the label will usually state something along the lines of “complete and balanced for maintenance of adult dogs” even on senior foods.

Some differences in senior foods can include added glucosamine and chondroitin but you are already using a joint supplement anyway. Some lower the fat and calories because some dogs become less active as they age so may gain weight on higher fat/calorie foods. Some will also have lower phosphorus levels so the food is easier on their aging kidneys. None of Purina’s foods are particularly high in phosphorus though so you would not need to worry about an even lower amount unless your dog has current kidney issues. Some will also lower the sodium level for aging hearts, but again Purina’s foods typically are not that high anyway. If your dog had a heart or kidney issue due to old age that needed these nutrients lowered, you would be best off with a prescription food than a senior food. Because NONE of these things are actually a requirement to label a food as “Senior” so feeding a senior food would not even guarantee any of these benefits.

Most healthy seniors can stay on their original adult food for the rest of their life

The only supplements are personally use for my oldies are CBD oil for joint pain and CoQ10 for heart health. I do not bother with supplements much unless my dogs have a specific issue that needs to be addressed.

[Christie B]

My 2 dogs: 4 year old 45 pound Catahoula Leopard Dog Mix (no food issues), 10 year old 120 pound American Bulldog mix (sensitivities to chicken, possibly lamb)

After feeding both dogs for years on various grain free food and dealing with gastrointestinal issues with one of the dogs, I took my vets advice and tried Purina Pro Plan Sensitive Skin and Stomach. I’m actually surprised that my dogs stools are smaller and firmer and my one dog hasn’t had any stomach related incidents (there was one like the 2nd day of transitioning when both dogs literally picked out and only ate the PPP and left their old Merrick food in the bowl, but I chalked it up to a transitioning headache).

I’m the first person who would cringe at just the thought of buying anything Purina related. But I told my vet I would at least try 2 bags of the food to see if my dog’s stomach issues resolved. So far so good, but I’m only halfway through first bag so we’ll see…

My question though is related to what senior dogs require as far as nutrient profiles and supplements. He’s always had a bowed front leg and it doesn’t bother him when he stands or walks. But I know it can become arthritic, especially since he’s a large breed. So he’s been on Dasuquin for a while (both dogs are).

Since the PPP is for Adults and there isn’t a PPP sensitive stomach formula for seniors, is there anything that I should be adding to his diet to meet his senior needs?

[Tammy K]

Hi I’m new here and looking for advice? I gave a 3 yr old staffy iv fed her a few different foods like blue buffalo, Halo to name a couple. But she eats her own poop! So I turned to home made for her and it’s much better. But would live some support ona supplement To add in?thank you!

[Laura L]

Have you tried adding some probiotics or enzymes to her diet? There are some really good products for IBD/dog diarrhea/digestive issues. One of my dogs had a crazy bout of diarrhea that lasted for almost three months. He didn’t have any allergies, so we didn’t need to change the protein in his diet. It took time, but by adding supplements we were able to normalize his stool.

[Laura L]

Ryan – I see it has been over a year since you posted n this forum. Have you had any luck with treatments for your dachshund terrier?
I have been researching CT and found that much of the irritation is actually due to digestive issues. Go figure!
Check out the testimonials from people that have had luck using Ultra-Flex Collagen and Lypozyme to support CT
https://www.askariel.com/collapsed-trachea-supplements-s/1896.htm

[Mike D]

I understand that you want to give the best to your dog, I own a dog too and do my best to give it the best I can. So, I tried many kinds of food, different supplements. I think I have some experience with it. I have found very good reviews on dog supplements https://allpetsexpert.com/best-joint-supplement-for-dogs/ and I can tell that the choice of it is very good as well as the quality.

[haleycookie]

Just an FYI, no over the counter food has enough glucosamine in it to make any difference. It’s just a marketing thing but when u break down the amounts per serving size they usually contain almost no glucosamine and chondroitin. I would recommend cosaquin for those issues. Or if it is severe a prescription supplement from the vet. Beyer also has a new joint line that are prescription strength that u can get over the counter.
I would look at canidae senior formulas. They have two varieties that are excellent. They also have a vet on staff formulating their foods.
Fromm is good as well, just keep in mind “Senior” is just a nice way of saying less meat, more carbs. Which for a dog that is getting older and having muscle wasting is not ideal. So I would recommend maybe finding a high meat all life stage food. Or look at natures variety raw boost senior. Merrick also has a great senior meat based formula.
Higher meat foods will require less feedings so will be similar amount of money spent at the end of the day.

[Amber J]

Hi, everyone! I have three senior dogs (two are 13 years old, one is 9 years old), so it’s a bit tough to find reasonably priced senior dog food that works for all of them. Everyone is healthy but it’s hard to find dog food that works well for each dog’s bowels. They don’t have any grain or protein sensitivities that I’m aware of. Two of them have arthritis , but they are otherwise healthy. I use 6-8 cups of dog food a day, so super expensive food is not feasible for our household.

Since our two older dogs have arthritis, I like to see glocosamine, chondroitin, and omega’s in their food. I also like to see supplements that support muscle health, and plenty of fiber/digestive support ingredients. I was feeding them Victor Senior formula, but with Victor’s recent formula changes, all of the dogs are constipated and having a hard time pooping. I switched to Kirkland Senior formula, but their stools are a little too soft for my liking (especially as the person who has to scoop their poop out of the grass).

We have a wonderful local company who sells a senior dog food that seems like it might be okay, and is reasonably priced. I bought a 5-lb bag to test, and even my one picky boy loves it; he’s picking that kibble out and leaving the rest. Does anyone have thoughts on whether this food looks like it would be highly rated by Dogfood Advisor, or whether there are ingredients to avoid? Any other recommendations on reasonably priced senior/mature dog food that might work? I was looking at Fromm but it seems like they have some questionable history with their food.

Here’s the link to the local food: https://www.zamzows.store/products/grandma-zs-chicken-and-vegetable-senior-dog-food-35-lb

Any help would be most appreciated.

• This topic was modified 6 years, 6 months ago by Amber J.

[Christie B]

My American Bulldog mix has a history of occasional stomach upset that causes excessive drooling that I have to use Pepcid to treat. I thought it was pretty random, usually occurring 1-2 times a month. But I’ve noticed that it tends to happen as we get towards the end of a large bag of dry food (my vet had suggested rotating every 1-2 bags). Rotation helped a lot, as did avoiding chicken.

It seems that issues starts once we’re a few weeks into a bag of food. Picking up stools yesterday, I noticed that they were pretty soft and one had mucus inside. Both dogs have been going to town on eating grass, but that’s pretty normal for them (and I don’t use any chemicals on my lawn or garden). Could it have something to do with sticking with the same formula for too long? I’ve been rotating every 2 bags, but maybe I should rotate every bag instead…

My vet also suggested Purina Pro Plan Focus Adult Sensitive Skin & Stomach Salmon & Rice Formula .
Do any of the ingredients look suspect?

Salmon, barley, ground rice, canola meal, oatmeal, fish meal (source of glucosamine), animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols, brewers dried yeast, salmon meal (source of glucosamine), natural flavor, sunflower oil, chicory root inulin, salt, fish oil, Vitamin E supplement, niacin (Vitamin B-3), Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate (Vitamin B-5), pyridoxine hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), folic acid (Vitamin B-9), Vitamin B-12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Vitamin D-3 supplement, riboflavin supplement (Vitamin B-2), menadione sodium bisulfite complex (Vitamin K), biotin (Vitamin B-7), potassium chloride, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (Vitamin C), and choline chloride

[haleycookie]

If you’re going to go through all that trouble I would just make the food and use a powder dog supplement from balanceit.com, just food for dogs also has a complete supplement you can use for homemade diets. You couldn’t make the meat more than 15% of the diet so you’re dogs diet would be 85% carb from the vegan food which is ridiculous for an animal that doesn’t even require carbs at all.

[aimee]

Hi joanne l

It seems to me oat groats is just another word for whole grain oats so yes the bran, germ and endosperm are included. From the USDA nutrient database it appears that the total dietary fiber for oat groats is similar to other whole grains.

Human nutritionists seem to agree that whole grains are more healthful than their refined counterparts. so it surprised me that the nutritionist you talked to seems to be advising against them.

In regards to digestibility I found one comparative study done in dogs and oat groats had high digestibility. on par with other grains commonly used in dog foods. Not sure what exactly you mean by “hard to digest”, I’m guess you mean low total digestibility. Perhaps you can post a link to the study that reported that.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/9fdb/1bb6f38f99956f823489c7980024aebfd216.pdf

from the abstract:

“Most dry dog foods are based on cereals, but very little published information and few comparative studies are available on the nutritive value of various cereals in dogs. To determine the apparent nutrient digestibilities and feed values of five different autoclave-processed and ground cereals: oat groats, barley, wheat, corn and rice, a digestibility trial was carried out on twelve adult huskies ac-cording to a 6 × 4 cyclic changeover design. Total tract organic matter (OM), crude carbohydrate and gross energy (GE) digestibilities were higher in rice than in all the other cereals. Apparent crude protein (CP) and acid hydrolyzed fat digestibilities of rice (80% and 94%, respectively) were as good as for oat groats (81% and 93%). However, oat groats had higher OM, CP and GE digestibilities than barley, wheat and corn. The amount of digestible crude protein (118 g kg-1 DM) was higher in oat groats than in the other cereals. Digestible energy contents (MJ kg-1 DM) of oat groats, rice, corn,wheat and barley were 17.1, 16.0, 15.7, 15.6 and 15.5, respectively. The quantity of excreted wet faeces increased and the percentage of dry matter (DM) in faeces decreased when oat groats, barley,wheat or corn were supplemented to the basal diet, in contrast to rice, which had the opposite effecton wet faeces excretion. Oat groats are good substitutes for rice or other cereals in dry dog foods.”

[anonymous]

Yeah, vitamin D and vitamin A are obviously toxic in large amounts.
Note recent dog food recalls

PS: I would only use supplements recommended by the vet (if any) Most are not necessary.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 6 months ago by anonymous.

[Jaky S]

I’ve been feeding Titan for 4 months. My dogs are thriving and its way more affordable than when I was preparing homemade raw/cooked. Eggs add fatty acids. Fish is a source of natural vitamin D and omega 3. Wheat germ oil adds vitamin E and omegas. If you are feeding raw without supplementation your foods will typically be low on iodine, vitamin d, magnesium, manganese and vitamin E. That is why dog food manufacturers supplement.

[haleycookie]

There are no pet stores anywhere near you?
Canned raw pumpkin is good for digestion. Maybe not the best idea everyday though. You can use any quality canned food as a topper to mix the supplements in. Would be balanced food and free of sugar. Maybe try pure balance canned food. I’ve heard a lot of people whom don’t have pet stores around them that like the pure balance food. Any canned like merrick, wellness, even blue buffalo have ok stew canned foods. I think blue is at Walmart too.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 6 months ago by haleycookie.

[Deborah F]

Hi there. Just got a new dog food for my bichon and chihuahua and wondering what others think on the quality of the ingredients please. They’re as follows:

Salmon and Trout 50% (36% freshly prepared salmon, 12%trout, 12%dried salmon and 2% fish stock)
Sweet potato 26%
Peas and potato 6%
Beet Pulp
Linseed
Vitamins and minerals
Vegetable Stock
Omega 3 supplement
Asparagus equivalent to 7.5 kg of product (I bought a 15kg bag)
FOS (92 mg/kg)
MOS (23 mg/kg)

I’d appreciate your help as a bit clueless as to whether the above is good or bad. I bought the bag from a local dog food supplier. Thanks 🙂

[Lori H]

I am not stating this as a substitute to veterinary care, this is just my own personal success story. My vet is VERY aware of my dogs diet and supplement routine, it has been discussed very thoroughly with her. There are other alternatives out there and if you do research, there might be one that works better. A forum is to exchange, collaborate and educate. People will make up their minds as they see fit, but I will continue to share my success story. If I did not change my dogs diet, he would be dead.

[christine v]

I really like this write up re; DCM, it’s a bit more balanced thn the scaremongering articles i often see bandies about.

“There has recently been a rising controversy regarding the effect of Taurine on dogs. Unfortunately, some veterinarians and manufacturers are incorrectly applying the concern to all breeds of dogs and using “grain-free” foods as a scapegoat in order to push their own product agenda. The recommendations from these individuals are unfortunately setting us up for much greater problems in the near future.

The facts:
• Unlike cats, dogs are able to synthesize taurine in their bodies

• Some dog breeds may suffer from taurine deficiency in relation to certain diseases and may need to have taurine added to their diets

• American Cocker Spaniels and certain giant breed dogs (produce taurine in their bodies at a slower rate) appear to be more prone to taurine deficiency

• There are no symptoms directly related to taurine deficiency, but instead symptoms are usually related to dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM) which can be caused by taurine deficiency

• Grain-free pet foods are not the cause of taurine deficiency; however, potatoes and some legumes MAY affect taurine absorption if in large enough quantities (this is still unclear and only speculation at this point) and can be found in many “grain-free” as well as “grained” pet foods

Most importantly:
• The proportion of plant to animal protein sources may be a contributing factor (the lower the animal protein and the higher the plant protein, the more likely the food is to create low blood taurine levels)

• Many of the sick dogs from the original study had normal blood taurine levels and many of the dogs with low blood taurine levels did not respond to taurine supplementation

Conclusion:
Studies like this can be very good for the industry and our pets so long as they are interpreted correctly and organizations do not use the findings to further their agenda. Bottomline, grain-free foods are not the villain. It is irresponsible to claim that it is the problem given the actual true facts.

Genetics, disease, and large amounts of low-nutrient dense, high glycemic carbohydrates paired with minimal animal protein appears to be the problem, and would be even more specific than just blaming grain-free foods. There are grain-free foods to avoid, just as there are “grain-in” foods to avoid. Grains are certainly not an important, needed part of a dog or cat’s diet. But neither are carbs like potatoes, or peas which are mostly found in grain-free foods. They are merely replacements for grains like rice, corn, oatmeal, and others. Unfortunately dry kibble dog food (which is the only form of dog food this should even be associated with), MUST have those types of carbs in them to make the kibble hold together. It’s almost like the “glue” to keep it in kibble form.
We KNOW for a fact that corn and wheat do not do dogs any favors when it comes to their health! Rice is normally fine for most dogs but some will suffer from itchiness and other symptoms due to it being a high-starch carb. Obviously it would be best to avoid rice for an “itchy dog”. This is why grain-free foods exist. They would normally have a higher quality source of carbs binding them and without the toxins and allergens found in cheap cereal grains. It comes down to picking the lesser of evils on the carb source and figuring out what works best for your particular dog.
At EarthWise Pet, we have a comprehensive Certified Pet Dietitian program that trains individuals through over 500 hours of pet nutrition courses and material. Our expertise allows us to assess ingredients, manufacturing, and sourcing of all of our recommended foods. Because of this certification and vetting process, we offer a variety of grain-friendly and grain-free diets with low-carbohydrate content, minimal processing and high animal-based protein levels to ensure biologically appropriate, quality nutrition for your pets with sufficient levels of Taurine. If you have concern that your breed may be predisposed to taurine deficiency, ask your EarthWise Pet associate for recommendations and to see what food is right for your furry family member. We guarantee we have one that will fit your pet’s needs and give you confidence in the ingredients, sourcing and manufacturing processes of the food you feed.

I will add that I personally know thousands of dogs. I have not yet known of one to suffer from DCM, but I have known many that have been afflicted with Cancer, Diabetes, Obesity, and general poor health. In almost all cases, the dogs were fed low-quality dry dog food for most of their lives and that would usually consist of foods loaded with grains. Why would we want to go back to those kinds of diets, grains or no grains?!”

https://www.facebook.com/EarthWisePetHarpersPoint/posts/2349799205080076?__tn__=K-R

[Anonymous]

Probably the easiest thing to do is to buy a certified organic non-GMO version of “cheerios”. You could google something like “organic versions of Cheerios”. They *should* have less pesticides than conventional cereals.

You could also add a little straight organic non-GMO oatmeal and skip the processed cereal, since dogs don’t really need sugar.

If this is a matter of fiber supplementation (and not something specific to oats), and you’re uneasy even about organic oats, you could try a different source of fiber. You could ask your vet what type of fiber your dog needs, how much, and look for something that supplies it.

Sometimes you get worse stool until you figure out the right balance of fibers and the quantities. . I’d Start with small amounts and slowly adjust.

These are just a few thoughts, hope it helps! Good luck.

[Patricia A]

Anon Whole Dog Journal’s article regarding DCM sounds pretty science based to me. There are also articles in Whole Dog Journal regarding the negative effects of yearly vaccinations for our pets . Holistic is not voodoo science anyway. Where some vets will push everything the drug salesman brings to their practice, holistic vets questions the need and the worth of giving certain medications when at times the side effects are worse then the problem . Example flea and tick medicines. Some have devastating effects on the health of our pets and the vets don’t find out till it’s too late. Below is full Whole Dog Journals article .
DCM in Dogs: Taurine’s Role in the Canine Diet
What is taurine-deficiency dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM), and how can dog owners prevent it? (Hint: It involves more than just grain-free foods.)

By Linda P. Case – August 15, 20180

TAURINE FOR DOGS: OVERVIEW

Taurine Is Needed For:

1. Healthy heart function
2. As a component of bile acids
3. Retinal function
4. Reproductive health

Dietary Risk Factors for Reduced Taurine Status:

– Low-protein diet (limited taurine precursors)
– Heat-damaged or poor-quality protein sources
– High dietary fiber (i.e., rice bran, beet pulp, cellulose)
– Lamb and rice diets (speculated)
– Plant-based protein sources (peas, lentils, legumes) (speculated)

Possible Risk Factors for Taurine-Deficiency DCM:

BREEDS
American Cocker Spaniel
English Setter
Golden Retriever
Labrador Retriever
Newfoundland
St. Bernard

SIZE
Large-breed dogs
Dogs with slower metabolic rates

DIET
Factors that reduce taurine production
Factors that increase taurine-degrading microbes in the intestine
Factors that reduce bile acid production

In mid-July 2018, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) released an alert to veterinarians and pet owners regarding reports of increased incidence of a heart disease called canine dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM). This disorder is characterized by weakening of the heart muscle, which leads to a decreased ability of the heart to pump, and if untreated, to cardiac failure. The reported cases occurred in breeds that are not considered to be genetically predisposed to this disorder.

Further, a significant number of the dogs were found to have reduced levels of circulating taurine in their blood and have responded positively to taurine supplementation. It is speculated that these cases are related to the consumption of foods that negatively affect taurine status, leading to taurine-deficiency DCM. Foods containing high levels of peas, lentils, other legume seeds, and/or potatoes were identified by the FDA as potential risk factors. These ingredients are found commonly in foods that are formulated and promoted as “grain-free.”

As these things go, there followed a lot of hype and a fair bit of hysteria in response. Let us avoid this type of reaction and instead look at the evidence: What do we currently know about the role of diet and taurine in the development of DCM in dogs – and how is it that “grain-free” foods have been recently targeted as a possible dietary cause?

grain free dog food concerns
Signs of Dilated Cardiomyopathy (DCM) in Dogs

DCM is a disease of the heart, which causes the heart muscles themselves to weaken, which, in turn, reduces the ability of the heart to pump blood through the dog’s body as it should. The heart becomes enlarged and flabby, and fluid begins to accumulate in the dog’s lungs. As this condition progresses, it causes congestive heart failure.

Early signs of DCM may include:

– Lethargy, decreased energy
– A persistent cough
– Difficulty breathing, rapid or excessive breathing, or seeming shortness of breath
– Episodes of collapse
– Anorexia (chronic loss of appetite)

By the time these signs appear, the disease may already be fairly advanced. That’s why it’s important to make an appointment to see your veterinarian right away if your dog displays any of these signs, or more than one of these signs. Often, owners of middle-aged or senior dogs think that their dogs’ symptoms are “just old age,” but a quick diagnosis and treatment can restore an affected dog’s quality of life to nearly normal – and extend the dog’s life far past an untreated dog’s prognosis.

Treatment usually involves medications that help the dog’s heart to contract, slow his rapid pulse, help control the accumulation of fluid in his lungs, and dilate his blood vessels – all actions that will improve the heart’s performance.

What is Taurine? Why Do Dogs Need Taurine?

The nutrient taurine is a unique type of amino acid, called a beta-amino sulfonic acid. It is not incorporated into proteins but rather is found primarily as a free amino acid in body tissues and circulating in the blood. Taurine has many functions, but two that are important for this discussion involve its role in normal heart function and its presence as a component of bile acids, which are needed for fat digestion. Most animals obtain adequate taurine to meet their needs by producing it endogenously (in the body) from two other amino acids, methionine and cysteine.

This means that while most animals require taurine physiologically, most do not have a dietary requirement for taurine. The exception to this rule is the cat. Cats (but not dogs) always require a source of taurine in their food. If they do not have it, one of the diseases that they can develop (and possibly die from) is – you guessed it – DCM.

taurine structure
Taurine-deficiency DCM is well documented in cats. We also know quite a lot about the dietary factors that contribute to this disease in that species. In contrast, dogs (usually) do not require a source of dietary taurine. However, we know that some dogs still develop taurine-deficiency DCM. Why does this happen? The history of DCM in cats can help in untangling what may be occurring in dogs.

Taurine-Deficiency DCM in Cats

Looking back, I cannot avoid a sense of déjà vu. In the early 1980s, veterinarians began reporting increased incidences of DCM in pet cats. By 1987, a role for dietary taurine was suspected. In a seminal study, a veterinary researcher at UC Davis reported low plasma (blood) taurine levels in 21 cats with clinical signs of DCM. 1 When the cats were supplemented with taurine, all 21 recovered from the disease. This discovery led to a series of controlled studies that supported the existence of taurine-deficiency DCM in cats who were fed diets that contained sufficient concentrations of taurine.

What was going on?

It has to do with bile acids. Another role of taurine in the body is that it is necessary for normal bile acid function. Taurine is linked to bile acids in the liver to form bile salts. During digestion, these compounds are secreted into the small intestine, where they function to aid in fat digestion. Animals are very efficient at conserving the taurine that is secreted into the intestine by reabsorbing the bile salts back into the body further down the intestinal tract. This occurs through a process called “enterohepatic reutilization” and prevents a daily loss of taurine in the feces.

Herein lies the problem for cats with DCM: If anything happens during digestion that causes the degradation of the bile salt taurine or that inhibits its reabsorption into the body, more is lost in the feces. If this happens consistently, the cat will experience an increase in his or her daily need for dietary taurine. Simply put – if anything causes the cat to poop out more taurine-bile acid complexes (or their degraded by-products), the cat will be in danger of a taurine deficiency if a higher level is not provided in the diet.

This is exactly what was happening in the cats with taurine-deficiency DCM – and is possibly what we are seeing today in dogs. The difference is that we know what diet factors caused taurine deficiency in cats during the late 1980s. These factors are not yet fully understood for dogs (but we can make a few guesses).

What We Know About Diet and Taurine Status

The studies with cats found that several dietary factors influenced taurine status. These were the level and type of dietary protein, the amount and type of dietary fiber, and the degree of heat that was used during food processing. These factors could affect taurine status in three ways:

1. Bile Acid Binding

Certain fibers and peptides (small protein chains) in the food can bind with bile salts in the small intestine and make them unavailable for reabsorption into the body. This results in an increased daily loss of taurine in the feces and a subsequent increase in daily taurine requirement to replace that loss.

2. Increased Microbial Degradation

Thermal processing of protein (extrusion or canning) can lead to the production of Maillard products – complexes of sugars and amino acids that are poorly digested in the small intestine. The undigested complexes travel to the large intestine and provide an intestinal environment that favors increased numbers of taurine-degrading bacteria. An increase in these bacterial populations reduces the proportion of taurine that is available for reabsorption and reuse by the body.

3. Reduced Taurine Availability

Taurine is found naturally in animal-based proteins but is not found in plant-based protein sources. Therefore, providing diets that include a sufficient level of high-quality animal proteins (that are not heat damaged) should ensure adequate taurine intake.

However, protein that is of low quality or that has been excessively heat-treated will be poorly digested, reducing the availability of taurine and of its precursor amino acids, cysteine and methionine.

In the early 1990s, in response to this new information regarding the interaction of dietary factors and taurine status in cats (and their relationship to DCM in cats), the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) increased the recommendations for dietary taurine in extruded and canned cat foods.

Taurine Deficiency in Dogs

Unlike the cat, dogs who are fed diets containing adequate levels of protein should be capable of synthesizing enough taurine from cysteine and methionine to meet their needs. Therefore, a requirement for dietary taurine has not been generally recognized in dogs.

However, there is evidence – evidence that we have had for at least 15 years – that certain breeds of dogs, and possibly particular lines within breeds, exhibit a high prevalence of taurine-deficiency DCM. Genetically predisposed breeds include the American Cocker Spaniel, Golden Retriever, Labrador Retriever, Saint Bernard, Newfoundland, and English Setter.  Although the exact underlying cause is not known, it appears that some breeds have either a naturally occurring higher requirement for taurine or a metabolic abnormality that affects their taurine synthesis or utilization.

A second factor that affects taurine status in dogs is size. There is evidence that a large adult size and a relatively slow metabolic rate influences the rate of taurine production in the body and may subsequently lead to a dietary taurine requirement. It is theorized that increased body size in dogs is associated with an enhanced risk for developing taurine deficiency and that this risk may be exacerbated by a breed-specific genetic predisposition.

There is additional evidence that large and giant breed dogs have lower rates of taurine production compared with small dogs. Ultimately, studies suggest that certain dogs possess a genetic predisposition to taurine depletion and increased susceptibility to taurine-deficiency DCM and that this susceptibility may be related to the combined factors of breed, size, and metabolic rate.

Taurine in Dog Food Diets

The recent spate of cases and media attention to taurine-deficiency DCM in dogs suggests that this is a very new problem in dogs. However, it is not new. A connection between diet and DCM in dogs was first described in a paper published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association in 2001. What is new is the sudden focus on certain pet food ingredients and the target that appears to have been placed upon the backs of all “grain-free” pet food brands by some bloggers and veterinarians.

Not to put too fine a point on this, but the 12 cases of taurine-deficiency DCM described in the 2001 paper were collected between 1997 and 2001, years before grain-free dog foods had arrived on the pet food scene. Rather than disparage one class or type of dog food (or pet food company), it is more important to look at specific dietary factors that may be involved in DCM in dogs.

Generally speaking, these are expected to be the same as those identified for cats, including low protein levels, poorly processed or heat-damaged proteins (leading to Maillard products), and the inclusion of a high proportion of plant-based protein sources such as peas and legumes.

Over the past 15 years, reduced taurine status in dogs has been associated with feeding lamb meal and rice diets, soybean-based diets, rice bran, beet pulp, and high fiber diets. As with cats, there appear to be multiple dietary (and genetic) factors involved.

For example, it was theorized that the perceived (not proven) association between lamb meal and taurine status was due to low levels of available amino acids present in the lamb meal, or to excessive heat damage of the protein, or to the confounding factor of the inclusion of rice bran in many lamb meal-containing foods. To date, none of these factors have been conclusively proven or disproven. However, the most recent study showed that three types of fiber source – rice bran, cellulose, and beet pulp – all caused reduced plasma taurine levels in dogs when included in a marginally low protein diet, with beet pulp causing the most pronounced decrease.

Complicated? You bet. This is why it is important to avoid making unsupported claims about certain foods and brands. Taurine-deficiency DCM has been around for a while in dogs and continues to need study before making definitive conclusions about one or more specific dietary causes.

Current Considerations of Taurine in Dog Food

We know that any dietary factor that reduces the availability of taurine precursors, binds taurine bile salts in the intestine, or causes an increase in the bacteria populations that degrade taurine, can reduce a dog’s ability to synthesize taurine or will increase taurine degradation and/or loss in the feces. These changes could ultimately compromise a dog’s taurine status (especially if the dog was genetically predisposed) and affect heart health. In extreme cases, as we are seeing, this can lead to taurine-deficiency DCM (see “A Few Things to Know About Taurine” above).

The FDA report identified foods that contain high amounts of peas, lentils, legume seeds, or potatoes to be of potential concern. The FDA also stated that the underlying cause of DCM in the reported cases is not known and that at this time, the diet-DCM relationship is only correlative (not causative). However, this has not stopped various bloggers and even some veterinarians from targeting small pet food companies and/or grain-free brands of food, and implying that these foods, and these foods alone, are causing taurine-deficiency DCM in dogs. Their reasoning is that peas and legumes are present in high amounts in foods that are formulated and marketed as grain-free.

However, the truth is that many companies and brands of food include these ingredients. More importantly, there is no clear evidence showing that a particular dog food type, brand, or even ingredient is solely responsible for taurine-deficiency DCM in dogs.

Rather, it is more reasonable and responsible to speculate that one or more of these ingredients, their interactions, or the effects of ingredient quality, heat treatment, and food processing may play a role. Furthermore, the underlying cause could be the protein, starch, or fiber fractions of these ingredients. As plant-source proteins, peas, lentils, and legumes include varying amounts of starch (both digestible and resistant forms) and dietary fiber. These protein sources are also generally less nutritionally complete and less digestible than are high quality animal source proteins – additional factors that could influence a dog’s ability to both produce and use taurine. Potatoes, in contrast, provide a digestible source of starch in an extruded food but also contain varying levels of resistant starch, which is not digested and behaves much like dietary fiber in the intestinal tract.

Conclusions on Grain-Free Food and DCM

Because any or all of these dietary factors could be risk factors for taurine-deficiency DCM in dogs, and because peas, legumes, and other ingredients identified by the FDA report have not yet been fully studied, the heart of the matter is that no conclusions can yet be made about the underlying dietary cause or causes of taurine-deficiency DCM in dogs.

But given what we do know, we recommend feeding a diet that contains sufficient levels of high-quality, animal-source protein, does not include plant-source proteins as primary protein sources, and does not contain high levels of dietary fiber.

If you are worried about your dog’s taurine status or heart health, whether due to his diet history or physical signs that are of concern, see your veterinarian for a complete physical examination and, if needed, to measure plasma levels of taurine. 

Cited Studies

1. Pion PD, Kittleson MD, Rogers QR, et al. “Myocardial failure in cats associated with low plasma taurine: A reversible cardiomyopathy.” Science 1987; 237:764-768.

2. Earl KE, Smith PM. “The effect of dietary taurine content on the plasma taurine concentration of the cat.” British Journal of Nutrition 1991; 66:227-235.

3. Hickman MA, Morris JG, Rogers QR. “Effect of processing on the fate of dietary taurine in cats.” Journal of Nutrition 1990; 120:995-1000.

4. Hickman HA, Morris JG, Rogers QR. “Intestinal taurine and the enterohepatic circulation of taurocholic acid in the cat.” Advances in Experimental Medicine and Biology 1992; 315:45-54.

5. Freeman LM, Rush JE, Brown DJ, et al. “Relationship between circulating and dietary taurine concentrations in dogs with dilated cardiomyopathy.” Veterinary Therapeutics 2001; 370-378.

6. Backus RC, Ko KS, Fascetti AJ. “Low plasma taurine concentration in Newfoundland dogs is associated with low plasma methionine and cysteine concentrations and low taurine synthesis.” Journal of Nutrition 2006; 136:2525-2533.

7. Ko KS, Backus RC, Berg JR, et al. “Differences in taurine synthesis rate among dogs relate to differences in their maintenance energy requirement.” Journal of Nutrition 2007; 137:1171-1175.

8. Fascetti AJ, Reed JR, Roger QR, et al. “Taurine deficiency in dogs with dilated cardiomyopathy: 12 cases (1997 – 2001).” Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association 2001; 223:1137-1141.

9. Delaney SJ, Kass PH, Rogers QR, Fascetti AJ. “Plasma and whole blood taurine in normal dogs of varying size fed commercially prepared food.” Journal of Animal Physiology and Animal Nutrition 2003; 87:235-244.

10. Torres CL, Backus RC, Fascetti AJ, et al. “Taurine status in normal dogs fed a commercial diet associated with taurine deficiency and dilated cardiomyopathy.” Journal of Animal Physiology and Animal Nutrition 2003; 87:359-372.

11. Ko KS, Fascetti AJ. “Dietary beet pulp decreases taurine status in dogs fed low protein diet.” Journal of Animal Science and Technology 2016; 58:29-39.

Linda P. Case is the owner of AutumnGold Consulting & Dog Training Center in Mahomet, Illinois. Linda is the author of Dog Food Logic, has a new book, Dog Smart, and writes The Science Dog blog.

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LEAVE A REPLY

• This reply was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by Patricia A.

[Bobby dog]

I read a comment on Skeptvet’s blog asking for advice from a Vet or two… I assume no one replied because they had not examined the dog.

Zignature never fell down a “rabbit hole.” Their whole schtick from the beginning was holistic, grain free, exotic meats, and no chicken, potatoes, wheat, soy, or corn that’s what they built their brand on, “Meat first provides the animal protein dogs need to thrive, while our limited ingredient philosophy eliminates allergenic ingredients, such as Chicken, Corn, Wheat Gluten, Soy, and Potatoes. The result is an optimal hypoallergenic, grain free, and low carbohydrate nutrition. We build on this natural foundation by adding vital supplements such as antioxidants, essential fatty acids, and a complete spectrum of vitamins and minerals for holistic pet food that goes beyond nature to become your pet’s signature food for life.” ~ Zignature

Don’t forget Zig’s endorsement of the Glycemic Research Institute…wonder if the creator of that business ever got their weight loss chocolate off the ground…

WHY IS IT IMPORTANT THAT ZIGNATURE® CONTAINS NO POTATOES?
Potatoes have been identified as a high-glycemic carbohydrate for dog food. Zignature® only uses low glycemic carbohydrates such as whole Chickpeas, and garden Peas which also provide valuable soluble and insoluble fiber. For more details, visit the Glycemic Research institute.
https://zignature.com/faq/

[Shayne, Ultimate Pet Nutrition]

Hi Tt G, I’m Shane from Ultimate Pet Nutrition. I’m so sorry to hear about your friend’s pup’s experience. I would like to get more information from them so we can report this to our Adverse Reactions Team. This is not a common reaction of Nutra Thrive, so we take reactions like these very seriously. Can you please have your friend contact me at [email protected] with specific details? I’d also like to issue them a full refund. As you mentioned, as with all supplements, some work well for certain dogs and not for others which is why we offer a 90-Day Money Back Guarantee. I look forward to hearing from your friend and getting to the bottom of this.

[Anonymous]

I would agree with a post from David. My friend yesterday gave that supplement (nutra Thrive) to her beautiful baby for the first time. In the morning doggie vomited, had diarrhea. And all day (today is Sunday) the dog is not doing well: lethargic, not responsive, not eating or drinking.
Unfortunately only tomorrow at 7 am the dogs ER will be open.
Dog is not even 2 yo.
I think there should be some warning for the product: some dogs do not do well.

[Patricia A]

Joanne I believe it’s so much more complicated then peas/legumes causing lack of absorption of taurine. Way over my head with scientific explanations but I get the gist that not ALL grain free is causing DCM. Below is sited from JOURNAL OF ANIMAL SCIENCE OXFORD:

Other recent publications highlight the need for careful nutrient formulation.

Several recent papers, both original research and reviews, likewise highlight the unknowns surrounding grain-free diets (typically legume or pulse-based, but sometimes also with “exotic” ingredients such as kangaroo, bison, or wild boar) and DCM. For example, Adin et al. (2019) examined 48 dogs of many breeds with diagnosed DCM and having a known diet history. Among grain-free diets being consumed in this study, 1 dog was particularly associated with DCM, possibly underscoring the importance of specific diet formulation. Furthermore, 2 dogs switched from that diet to other grain-free diets showed improvement in their DCM; it is unclear if those dogs were taurine deficient or if they also received taurine and/or carnitine supplementation. This suggests that grain-free composition per se may not be the root cause of DCM. Another recently published case series of 24 Golden Retrievers with DCM and known diet histories were evaluated, and an association between grain-free diets and DCM was suggested (Kaplan et al., 2018). Most dogs (15 of 24) were fed a single diet which was significantly associated with low blood taurine concentrations, again suggesting that specific diet formulation may play an important role. However, as in the previous study, soluble vs. insoluble fiber concentrations were not available for the diets, nor were taurine, methionine, or cysteine concentrations, meaning that the true nutrient profiles of the diets could not be assessed and reinforcing the point that diet formulation for nutrients—not ingredients—is essential. It also suggests that nutrient requirements may vary widely based on breed, diet, and other phenotypic data. Indeed, most of the dogs with DCM in the previously described study were consuming less energy compared with their predicted requirements (Kaplan et al., 2018). It also bears pointing out that the numbers in both studies were very low (representing less than 100 DCM-affected dogs between them), which surely represents a fraction of the dogs consuming grain-free, pulse-based diets. A recent thoughtful review supports these conclusions by reiterating the crucial need for plant-based diets for dogs to be formulated with sufficient quantities of bioavailable methionine and cysteine to support adequate taurine synthesis (Dodd et al., 2018). This can be achieved with the addition of purified AAs and other sources that are readily available (Gloaguen et al., 2014). Finally, a recent commentary carefully concludes that a true cause-and-effect relationship between grain-free diets and DCM has not been proven, and other factors may ultimately be more important (Freeman et al., 2018). Taken together, these recent publications may point to faulty nutrient formulation in some, but not all, grain-free diets.

Effect of Dietary Fiber on Taurine Status and RISK of Canine DCM
Dietary fiber has been shown to affect the taurine status in dogs. For example, commercial diets formulated with lamb meal and rice bran were shown to cause taurine deficiency in part because of low bioavailable cysteine from lamb meal and possibly more importantly due to the effects of rice bran fiber on gastrointestinal metabolism of taurine (Johnson et al., 1998; Tôrres et al., 2003). It has been hypothesized that high-fiber diets can increase susceptibility to taurine deficiency by 2 mechanisms of action linked to obligatory bile acid conjugation with taurine in dogs (O’Mádille et al., 1965) and reliance on enterohepatic circulation for the reabsorption of bile acids and taurine. First, high-fiber diets may increase fecal output and losses of taurine-conjugated bile. This would require higher synthesis rates of bile in the liver, and consequently, higher utilization of taurine (Story, 1978). Second, high consumption of fermentable fibers may increase the abundance of microbial populations that degrade taurine in the intestinal lumen (Kim et al., 1996a, 1996b). Either alone or together, increased excretion or degradation of taurine from high-fiber diets may decrease enterohepatic circulation and recycling of taurine. Given that taurine is the only AA used for bile acid conjugation in dogs, over time, high-fiber diets could increase the risk of taurine insufficiency in dogs and lead to DCM.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by Patricia A.

[Bobby dog]

FWIW your cat has not had a blockage in four years, your doing something right!!! No doubt the fountain is helping too.

Some cats are just addicted to kibble. My cat is not big on wet food. He has access to H2O and food at all times and once a day he will nibble on some wet food. He’s my meat and potatoes boy, nothing fancy for him. I have tried feeding $5/canned foods and he just wants his Friskies & Fancy Feast, that’s it! I have to feed a different recipe each day.

I have tried taking away his kibble and only offering canned, he would not eat the daily amount required. Fasting a cat is not an option for health reasons so I gave up, it is what it is.

Even though I wrote my cat loves the Friskies “Lil Soups he still doesn’t eat it all. He leaves behind the salmon & tuna meat. I would think that would be the best part, but what do I know. I give the leftovers to my dog so he couldn’t be more pleased with my cat.

A few other suggestions are baby food and canned tuna. They are not vitamin balanced for cats so they’re something that should only be offered as supplemental foods like a treat, not a meal. I usually buy the Chicken of the Sea low sodium chunk light tuna in H2O and I have fed Beech-Nut Stage 1 Chicken & Chicken Broth, Beech-Nut Stage 1 Turkey & Turkey Broth, and Gerber Stage 2 Chicken & Chicken Gravy. They usually love drinking the tuna juice too. I used those two options for a few of my past kitties that wouldn’t eat canned to help hydrate them.

Edit: I have also fed StarKist reduced sodium canned salmon and canned mackerel.

I love reading stories of fellow cat lovers feeding strays! I am a sucker for a stray kitty and have had my share move in with us over the years. One of them even had a tipped ear. It took me two weeks to be able to pet him, he was one in a million.

[Christie B]

On the topic of “the big 4”, I think it’s important to go beyond the parent company and look at the ingredients on the bag to determine what food you should buy. Some product lines within a company are better than others. I don’t think you can rank Dog Chow the same as Pro Plan or Pedigree the same as Nutro.

Ingredients are important. 3 Chicken Formula Dry Food Ingredients Lists:

GROUND WHOLE GRAIN CORN, POULTRY BY-PRODUCT MEAL (SOURCE OF GLUCOSAMINE AND CHONDROITIN SULFATE), CORN GLUTEN MEAL, ANIMAL FAT (SOURCE OF OMEGA 6 FATTY ACIDS [PRESERVED WITH BHA & CITRIC ACID]), MEAT AND BONE MEAL (SOURCE OF CALCIUM), SOYBEAN MEAL, GROUND WHOLE GRAIN WHEAT, BREWERS RICE, NATURAL FLAVOR, CHICKEN BY-PRODUCT MEAL, DRIED PLAIN BEET PULP, SALT, CALCIUM CARBONATE, POTASSIUM CHLORIDE, CHOLINE CHLORIDE, DRIED PEAS, ZINC SULFATE, DL-METHIONINE, MONOCALCIUM PHOSPHATE, VITAMIN E SUPPLEMENT, NIACIN [VITAMIN B3], BIOTIN, DRIED CARROTS, L-TRYPTOPHAN, BHA & CITRIC ACID (A PRESERVATIVE), BLUE 2, YELLOW 5, YELLOW 6, d-CALCIUM PANTOTHENATE [SOURCE OF VITAMIN B5], RIBOFLAVIN SUPPLEMENT [VITAMIN B2], RED 40, PYRIDOXINE HYDROCHLORIDE [VITAMIN B6], COPPER SULFATE, SODIUM SELENITE, POTASSIUM IODIDE, VITAMIN A SUPPLEMENT, THIAMINE MONONITRATE [VITAMIN B1], VITAMIN B12 SUPPLEMENT, VITAMIN D3 SUPPLEMENT, FOLIC ACID

Chicken, brewers rice, poultry by-product meal (source of glucosamine), corn gluten meal, whole grain wheat, whole grain corn, oat meal, medium-chain triglyceride vegetable oil, pea fiber, dried egg product, natural flavor, fish oil, barley, fish meal (source of glucosamine), L-Arginine, mono and dicalcium phosphate, potassium chloride, salt, Vitamin E supplement, potassium citrate, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, manganese sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, calcium pantothenate, Vitamin B-12 supplement, copper sulfate, riboflavin supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, garlic oil, folic acid, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, choline chloride, and sodium selenite

Chicken, Chicken Meal, Pearled Barley, Brown Rice, White Rice, Oatmeal, Beet Pulp, Chicken Fat, Menhaden Fish Meal, Flaxseed, Dried Whole Egg, Cheese, Brewers Dried Yeast, Salt, Calcium Sulfate, Potassium Chloride, Monocalcium Phosphate, DL-Methionine, L-Tryptophan, Taurine, Chicory Root Extract, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Sodium Selenite, Sorbic Acid (Preservative), Vitamins, Minerals, Probiotics.

So the first one is a mess of “poor quality” ingredients and artificial colors. I would give that food a hard pass every day. In fact, I know someone with a Lab who has fed this food for the dog’s entire life. This 10 year old has a lot of joint and mobility issues.

The second one has the dreaded by-product label (at least it’s poultry and not ‘meat’ ) and lots of grains. Fish meal can be found a ways down the list for a boost of glucosamine.

The third has chicken and chicken meal as the first two ingredients, a plus for sure… and then Barley, rice, more rice and oatmeal follow…not ideal.

Are any of these GREAT food choices?

Every single time I go to the pet store, I wander the aisles reading ingredients lists. All I see are legumes and potatoes. Are they causing DCM? There’s no concrete evidence one way or the other yet. Was the my dog doing fine on Chicken and Rice for the first few years of his life before I found this website and gasped at the low rating his food received? Absolutely. Did I switch the grain free after reading through these forums? Sure did. Has he done ok with switch, all these years later? Nope. He’s developed allergies and sensitivities. But is it because of grain free formulas? I haven’t found concrete evidence proving that x and y caused the issues.

It’s a learning process to find what works best for your dog. Some can’t have grains, some can. My vet suggests feeding him boiled chicken and white rice when he’s not feeling well. Is my vet stupid or just telling me what he knows from his 30+ years of experience might help my dog. Has he called grain free food evil? No, but he cautions against it only because the inclusion of legumes and potatoes are ‘relatively’ new to animal nutrition and there isn’t enough research and studies done to prove that they are safe in the long term.

He told me that he’s always given his dogs Pro Plan but have never pushed me to purchase any of the big 4 brands. In fact, he said the best thing I can do is read the ingredients list myself. And to transition food properly. And if my dog has issues after eating 1-2 bags of a food, to look at the current ingredients and find a food that’s different.

[Simba C]

Hi, I don’t have a dog yet but I may be adopting one this summer. I’ve recently learned about raw feeding and I think it’s much better than feeding kibble, but I do have a few questions.

Which is cheaper? Commercial or homemade?
I live near My Pet Carnivore and was thinking of ordering their food. Will I need to add supplements for their whole grounds?
How do I prevent bacteria from the raw meat spreading when the dog runs around the house? I live with the elderly and young children.
There seems to be no vet near me that supports raw feeding, I’ve emailed them and they all say it’s nutritionally imbalanced and I should not be doing it. How do I convince them otherwise?
I don’t have a local co-op but my friend is thinking of doing raw as well, can we make a mini co-op together?

Thanks.

[anonymous]

Integrating Myths and Nonsense with Standard Advice for Allergic Pets

excerpt below, click on link for full article and comments

“Of course, I’ve written about the raw diet nonsense before, and there is, once again, no evidence that raw diets have any benefit in terms of preventing or treating allergies. As for supplements, apart from limited evidence that fish oils can reduce the dosage of other drugs needed to control allergy symptoms, there is no solid data to support supplement recommendations. Overall, this section makes erroneous and misleading implications about the causes of food allergies, recommends a dubious diagnostic test, and then suggests treatments that have not been demonstrated to help”.

Hair and Saliva Test for Allergies are Worthless Pseudoscience

excerpt below, click on link for full article and comments

Hair and Saliva Test for Allergies are Worthless Pseudoscience
Posted on November 6, 2018 by skeptvet
There is a lot of mythology out there about food allergies. The recent concern about the potential risks of grain-free diets is only an issue at all because such diets became wildly popular with no evidence that grains were a problem in the first place. A lot of folks blame grains for allergies and other health problems, but there’s no real evidence this is true, and these ingredients probably play a fairly minor role in food allergies in dogs and cats.
Other myths about food allergies include the idea that changing diets can cause them (actually, prolonged exposure is usually needed to develop a sensitivity), that raw foods are less allergenic (nope, only more likely to give you a food-borne illness), and that you can use blood, hair, or saliva tests to diagnose food allergies (sorry, a limited ingredient diet trial is the only way to do this). This last misconception is perpetuated despite evidence from human medicine that it is not true because, quite frankly, it makes people money.

[anonymous]

If you click on the link you will see hundreds of comments I have posted on the subject.
It would take several hours to repeat the information you will find there.
There is a search engine here for that reason.

Better yet, make an appointment with a veterinary dermatologist asap to get your dog properly diagnosed and treated. There is no veterinary healthcare professional at this site. Even if there were they have not examined your dog nor can they provide specific advice regarding your pet. Best of luck!

Example “The diet helps but it can only do so much.
A multifaceted approach is often needed for environmental allergies. There is no cure.
But there are effective treatments/management.
PS: Bacterial skin infections that require antibiotics are common with atopic dermatitis. It is painful. Itchiness and burning….
Next, ear infections.”

example: “Please visit a board certified veterinarian asap for testing/diagnosis/treatment.
It’s been a year/4 seasons without significant results by the regular vet.
Do not give over the counter meds/supplements or apply ointments, creams that are not intended for veterinary use unless advised to do so by a veterinarian that has examined your dog”.

Example: /forums/topic/hes-got-good-and-environmental-allergies/#post-113364
“Make an appointment with a board certified veterinary dermatologist. It’s not the food. Just my opinion, based on my experience and knowledge”.

Very good information here: http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?s=environmental+allergies

[Shavon P]

Better to consult with your vet because it is hard to suggest any diet if he has stomach issues. Yes, you can keep him on puppy’s diet because it is digestible as compared to the dog one. Mayhap, your vet would able to suggest some natural supplements and medicine for his recovery. Then, you can start using the normal diet gradually.

[Shavon P]

Yes, many natural supplements especially fish oil works very well. I have tried natural supplements when my dog was gone through neck surgery.

[anonymous]

Yes! I agree.
I have noticed positive results with fish oil supplements recommended by my vet but usually it is in conjunction with other treatments recommended by the treating vet.

There a lot of anti-vet folks out there that are listening to homeopathic sites such as Dogs Naturally Magazine (one of many)and spreading false information.

Thanks for posting.