[Pitlove]

Hi Michelle- Wow, your dog makes my dogs skin problems look like nothing. I’m so sorry for what you are going through, but thank you for rescuing.

Are you working with a specialist currently? If you are only working with your general vet I would highly suggest seeking out someone who specializes in nutrition or at least is familiar with whats going on with your dogs.

Have you tried feeding raw/homemade? They offer venison meat and also cavie (guinea pig) and rabbit which could be options. HareToday offers these as grinds and you could work with a nutritionist to balance the meals. It might also be cheaper than feeding canned food and you would be able to completely tailor the diets to your needs.

[Kimberly W]

Hi all,

I have a puppy-mill Boston Terrier female named Lexie. I got her at 1 year old and she was in bad shape – demodex mange being one of the issues. We got rid of the mange, but she itches almost constantly still ….. especially mid-back and butt. Her tail has a spot where she’s rubbed all the hair off and now it’s like a callous there. I’ve tried all different proteins (even ground raw venison!) and grain-free foods, allergic injections, prednisone ….. even trying an immuno-therapy serum for common Florida allergens. She’s currently on Apoquel at $2 per DAY ….. it does help, but she still itches. I liked the idea of the Dinovite supplement + the raw diet they promote and switched her over VERY slowly. My first box of Dinovite lasted over 60 days. Lexie has a very touchy tummy and I didn’t want her to get sick. She seemed to do okay with the supplement and the diet, but we noticed that only the Apoquel made her scratch less. And by no means did the scratching stop ….. :/

So, into the 2nd box of Dinovite, Lexie started spitting up after eating. This had happened all along, but just once in awhile – now she was doing it after almost every meal. And it wasn’t RIGHT AFTER she ate, it was hours afterwards. Like we were sleeping at 3am and she’d vomit in the bed with us. And it was always GREEN. Like she was just spitting up just the Dinovite. We weaned her back onto the white fish based kibble she’d been on (that we were sure didn’t make her sick) and just put the Dinovite in that – thinking we’d eliminate the chance that it was the raw food. She STILL would vomit only green stuff.

I’m at my wits end here. I hate thinking she’s miserable. We have really tried a ton of stuff, but I think something in the Dinovite is making her sick. I’m wondering if all the time she was on the raw diet, it was moving the toxins from the crappy food she was fed (before I got her) OUT of her body and then, the grain (sorghum) in the Dinovite finally made her sick????

I wish I could post a picture – she looks SO good – hair is all grown in from where the demodex had her bald, so glossy she shines in the sun ….. everyone comments on how beautiful she is ….. but she itches. Almost all the time. Doesn’t lick her paws and her skin doesn’t smell at all, her ears are pretty pink inside ….. no yeast that I can see manifesting itself on her body anywhere. When I scratch her back where you can obviously tell it itches the MOST, there is some dandruff that comes out. She has no fleas and I’ve washed her with DermaBenss shampoo – as suggested by my vet – for the flaking skin ….. but when that didn’t work, I used a soap-free emu oil shampoo that’s FOR DRY SKIN and that didn’t help either.

This is what a meal looks like for Lexie:

1/2 cup of white fish based kibble – NO GRAINS (no corn, wheat or soy)
3 pumps of Yummy Chummies salmon oil
baked sweet potato or canned pumpkin
2 capsules of food enzymes (opened and sprinkled on the food)
Drs. Foster and Smith adult vitamin
vitamin E capsule – 400IU
***Also, before bed, I’m giving Lexie 2 capsules of bifidophilus, to help repopulate the good bacteria in her intestines.***
***We only use one kind of treats – Yummy Chummies Grain Free treats made with 95% salmon + potato and pea flour.***

The food we are using scores a 3.5 star on the food advisory list and I’m willing to buy her a 5 star food, but am not sure that food is her only issue. Does anyone have ANY suggestions for me? I’d be very grateful for any ideas that I haven’t already explored. Another supplement? A different shampoo? Anything I haven’t thought of or don’t know how to look for? I’ve even wondered if the itching is just a HABIT and maybe she doesn’t know how to stop ….. :/

Thanks for any thoughts!!!!

• This reply was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by Kimberly W.

[Pitlove]

“I didn’t know there were dermatologists for dogs. I wonder if I can just go see one instead of a vet? They might know more than a vet would maybe?”

Yes! They have a lot of different specialists for dogs as they do for humans. My vet gave me a reference to this dermatologist I’m going to be seeing, however I’m not 100% sure if you need one. I know typically with humans they want you to have a referal from a general practioner. Perhaps call your normal vet and see if she can give you a phone # to a dermatologist. And yes, they do have more knowledge than the vet. Thats exactly what mine told me. She even told me to talk to her about food choices for my boy as well. My vet really only knows about Science Diet and Primal Raw. When I asked her for suggestions for other foods she said “I don’t know really”.

As for the recommendation from Red to essentially continue feeding Purina Dog Chow- That is on you. If you feel Dog Chow is a low quality food (most of us here except for a few would agree) then switch. If you can find a retailer for Fromm near you or order online “Fromm Family Classics Adult” is a huge step up from Purina Dog Chow and it’s 35.64$ for a 33lb bag on chewy.com. I recommend this food a lot at my work to people looking to switch from Purina, Iams, Science Diet, etc who are on a tight budget.

[Aaron J]

For anyone that has purchased from Hare Today…what am I supposed to purchase to have the most complete prey model raw diet? They have many varieties of any ground protein/bones/organs… however looking at turkey as a protein, it has 27% bone. I don’t know what I would need to purchase in order to have a complete pmr diet for my dog. Ideally, I would prefer to just defrost the meat, scoop, measure, and feed… I don’t think they have that option?

Any feedback in regards to this is appreciated!!

Thanks!

• This topic was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by Aaron J.

[aquariangt]

While certain grains have some useful nutrition if you have to stay grain inclusive, as Marie said, they have no real need for them. Dogs derive the most energy and benefit from meat protein.

That said:

Dani eats grain free because I prefer to have as high of protein content as possible. I’d feed raw if my life allowed for it, but atm, it doesn’t. When she starts competing I will adjust my life and go raw. She also gets about 25-40% of her daily intake via dehydrated or canned, both of which tend towards much higher protein to carb ratios

Liesl however eats grain inclusive because she has some food allergy/intolerance whatever you feel like calling it that comes from grain free (legumes, mainly) so she eats 50-60% of her diet as canned and dehydrated. Grain inclusive is almost always lower protein than grain free

[Melissa S]

My pitbull, Ktulu, is having really bad skin problems. Just recently her right ear also became crusty and irritated on the inside. This has happened before to both of her ears, once. We cleaned them out with Keto (we have a prescription from the vet) and it never returned. Until now. She’s also always had skin issues on her stomach and flanks.

It’s gotten incredibly worse and her skin has become darkly pigmented, has lost hair, and I know she’s miserable. She smells like dog. Not like yeast or cheese or stinky feet. Another thing to keep in mind is that because of our living situation, the dogs must stay outside at all times. (Yeah, I know. I hate it, but this isn’t my house and we can’t afford to move to our own)

We haven’t taken her to the vet for this, because I’m afraid they’re going to try and do all kinds of unnecessary tests and give us drugs that won’t work or try to get us to buy Hills Science Diet (which I’m not a fan of at all). Although, I’m thinking that I will, just to see if they’ll take cultures and help us determine if this is a yeast issue (I think it is, along with allergies).

Now, that’s not really my issue. My issue is my partner thinks what we feed our dogs is just fine (Purina Dog Chow-please don’t judge us!). I’ve never liked it, but with our limited budget and our dogs liking it, I thought that it was okay for the time being. Well, the time being has passed and I can’t take it anymore. I’m even considering giving the dogs to people who can properly take care of them (ie. have more money).

If I were to start with a homemade diet, where do I actually start? How expensive is it really going to be? How do I make sure my dogs are getting all the required nutrients? Do you think this is the best route to go considering her skin issues?

I was looking into already prepared raw and freeze-dried, but with how large both of my dogs are, it’s out of the question regarding costs. Also, I want to make sure that I can pinpoint any food allergies as well, and so many of these commercially prepared foods have tons of ingredients.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Susan]

Hi Wifsie, when I rescued my boy about 2 years ago he had the same swallowing & swallowing & worse at night & what I’ve learnt is too LOWER the FAT & protein in the kibble & kibble makes it worse, I’m finding low fat cooked meals seem to be the best & low fat wet tin foods 3% fat & under for wet tin foods, the fat% is different in wet tin food to the fat % in kibbles…
I buy extra lean beef ground mince or the lean turkey breast mince & add broccoli, celery, carrot & quiona that I’ve already boiled made into a meatloaf & baked in oven, I feed wet food for breakfast & soften kibble for lunch & wet for dinner sometimes kibble, you could change it around & feed kibble for breakfast & wet tin or cooked meal for dinner & see if there’s a difference… the fat in the Taste Of the Wild is high, when it says min fat add another 2% for max %…..
if you do soak the kibble in water make sure you fully drain all the water, squeeze the soft kibble while in the bowl, then I put thru a blender for 3-5 sec, the kibble should fluff up & separate, not be a ball of gluggy glue kibble, it means you soaked the kibble in water too long if its a gluggy ball, some kibbles when soaked only take about 30-60mins & are soft, I’ve found kibbles with rice are better & digest easier then kibbles with potatoes, sweet potatoes.. I’ve just read that water can make acid reflux worse if water is left in with the kibble in bowl, something about the Ph levels in the stomach rising & making more stomach acid (Hydrochloric acid)…. if you still want to feed a kibble & see if he gets better on another brand, look for a lower protein around 24% & lower fat around 10% & a limited ingredient kibble, so less problems of 1 ingredient giving him acid reflux…like us some people can eat tomatoes, garlic, raw onions etc & are fine, when I eat acidy foods, I get bad acid reflux…. I look for a kibbles with rice without tomato pomace & all those added ingredients, I’m going to try the “EarthBorn Holistic Ocean Fusion” next I running out of kibbles to try, I’m worried cause the fat % is 12% min so max will be around 14% http://www.earthbornholisticpetfood.com/us/dog_formulas/
I have found when I feed a low fat 10-12% fat & higher protein 30% kibble, Patch had his bad swallowing & swallowing again… you may have to try a few different kibbles to find the right one…. “The Honest Kitchen Zeal” is suppose to be very good for dogs with stomach & skin problem…. http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/dog-food/zeal fat is 8.50% but the protein is higher at 35.50%…. there’s a lot of really good kibbles & wet tin foods in America so google around before deciding & make sure its money back guaranteed….I just say my boy wont eat it, when I start saying he gets acid reflux or sloopy poos the lady just looks at me weird…..I feel embarrassed when returning foods..

If after you change her diet a few times to a lower fat, lower protein & if she is still swallowing & eating grass, ask vet can you have an Endoscope & Biopsies done on the stomach & make sure the biopsies are done, After changing my boys diet & giving ant-acid meds, Patch was still having his acid reflux on & off waking up about 11pm & was bad in morning about 10am after eating, so the Vet did a Endoscope & Biopsies & found Helicobacter-Pylori often found in shelter-pound dogs…. also what I do when I see Patch swallowing & eating grass & uncomfortable, I give him about 4ml liquid Mylanta in a syringe, some people use Pepto Bismol but we don’t have Pepto in Australia..it gives instant relief, please keep us updated on your girl & what worked for your new girl…..

[Pitlove]

“And it’s pretty bizarre to see in one paragraph a complaint that I don’t provide scientific evidence, then a suggestion such evidence doesn’t matter anyway since “science changes,” and then an argument that good evidence concerning raw diets is impractical anyway so we should all just rely on anecdotes. Since you clearly don’t think science matters, it’s pretty hypocritical (and, of course, factually incorrect) to complain that I don’t provide any scientific evidence.”

Science is constantly changing and as a DVM I’m certain you were taught that in your classes. If not maybe consider going back and take a more up to date biology class. It was discussed frequently in all of my biology and psychology classes. Also I am a firm believer in science and I do not like to 100% give into an idea if I can not see any tangable evidence of the success or failure of an idea or practice. I simply said (and this is true) that it is impossible to do a feeding trial on ANY type of dog food be it kibble, canned, raw whatever long enough to 100% know the long term effects of feeding that food for years of a dogs life. And I did not say that anecdotes should be the only thing considered, I said that they need to be factored in and taken into account regardless of there lack of data based science BECAUSE feeding trials can not accurately show long term effects of feeding a certain diet to a dog.

If you are going to respond to something I say, please read what I wrote more carefully next time.

[SkeptVet]

Wow! It appears to be impossible for some here to disagree with someone else without being abusive and outright lying about them. Apart from being dishonest and gratuitously mean, it doesn’t really help answer the OP’s question, so it’s just snarking to make yourselves feel better.

For the record-
1. I’m not “extremely against raw diets.” I think the arguments made in favor of them range from complete nonsense to reasonable but unproven. The bottom line is that such diets might or might not have health benefits but no one has yet done the research to prove it, and all the armchair theorizing and anecdotes in the world won’t substitute for that.

And while the benefits are unproven, some of the risks are known. They are small, and not a reason to avoid raw diets if some benefits do turn out to show up in scientific studies some day, but there’s no reason to take even small risks when the only evidence is guesswork.

So I am skeptical of raw diets, but like anyone who understands how science works I proportion my judgments to the evidence, and since the evidence is almost non-existent I don’t make definitive judgments for or against the practice.

2. As for the UTI mentioned in the OP, I am not aware of any evidence that suggests raw diets increase the risk of UTIs. Sure, they expose pets to additional bacterial pathogens, but most of the common UTI organisms are already ubiquitous, and it seems unlikely that a few more would make a huge difference.

3. I won’t bother responding to the vapid and silly personal stuff, but anyone who actually reads my articles on raw diets will see plenty of links to original research studies.

And it’s pretty bizarre to see in one paragraph a complaint that I don’t provide scientific evidence, then a suggestion such evidence doesn’t matter anyway since “science changes,” and then an argument that good evidence concerning raw diets is impractical anyway so we should all just rely on anecdotes. Since you clearly don’t think science matters, it’s pretty hypocritical (and, of course, factually incorrect) to complain that I don’t provide any scientific evidence.

Bottom line is that I doubt the diet has anything to do with the UTI problems in this case, and I cannot understand why adults can’t discuss and debate these sorts of issues without all of the hyperbole and personal abuse. Even if you don’t like my opinions, try to cite them accurately.

[Anonymous]

Hi Brianna-

So Sorry! I re-read your original post and I now realize that you were hoping someone would have good information on homemade raw diets, and not necessarily looking for suggestions about pancreatic issues. It is probably true that unless your dog also has SIBO or low B12 he may not need antibiotics or B12 supplementation, but it’s worth asking your vet as these things could be reducing his appetite.

When my dog was having major digestive issues (which turned out to be IBD) I came across an informative website: epi4dogs.com. If you haven’t seen it, I recommend it.

Hopefully someone with more information on raw diets will respond. I do know that if not feeding bone, you must supplement calcium.

Again, so sorry for misunderstanding. Hope your vet gets back to you soon and your pup starts eating!

[Anonymous]

Did your vet diagnose him with pancreatitis? If not, you are just guessing.
If it was my dog I would make an appointment with an Internal Medicine Specialist, I am assuming you have already had diagnostic testing and exam by your vet.
Get to the root of the problem. Diet is not medication. You need to make sure he is stable first before making diet changes, especially something as extreme as going to raw. Some info here http://skeptvet.com/Blog/category/nutrition/

[Brianna D]

Hi! I’ve got a 1 year and 6 month old husky German Shepard mix. Sadly, he’s only 35 lbs due to health issues with his pancreas where he isn’t absorbing enough nutrients. I was going to switch him to blue buffalo food ($$$$$$$) but then someone mentioned I try a raw food diet to help with his digestive issues (food allergies & lack of nutrients, etc) I’ve been doing research for the past 3 days trying to figure out where to start and I’m still lost.

Someone told me they just feed their husky raw chicken & steak and steamed veggies. Everything else I’m reading online is saying organs and stuff like that. I want to make sure I’m doing this right and I’d love to see some weight gain within the next 30 days. Also, I see raw food lists and all of them have multiple different things like chicken backs and grass fed beef 1 whole egg. Is that how much you feed in one day?

Any information would help! I’ve read the measuring chart but unfortunately can’t find my food scale to measure. I’ll probably buy a new one but right now, I’m feeling very overwhelmed and could use some help! Thanks 🙂

[Jonathan S]

It might be tough to find in a puppy formula, but maybe try bigger kibbles? That helped with my dogs. Also, as I understand it, puppy food tends to be higher in fat… that may be contributing. Because of the fat content, I had to move my pups to adult food earlier than I had planned when I started feeding them raw diet as well. Once I did though, their tummies settled down and they started chewing the bigger kibbles instead of wolfing everything down!

[Susan]

Hi, after Patch finished his triple therapy antibiotics Metronidazole, Amoxicillin & Zantac last December for his Helicobacter-Pylori 2-3 days after stopping his meds, I saw a tape worm on his black bum, I looked & thought is that a tape worm then the next afternoon the same another tapeworm, they look like rice but cause it was Christmas eve the vet was closed that sells his Milbemax all wormer, Patch can’t take any other all-wormers they make him ill, vomiting & pooing blood, I rung the 24 hr vets & they didn’t have the Milbemax they had another all-wormer, so I had to wait till the holidays were over to worm him…I told his vet at the time & he said, yes he often see’s tapeworms in dogs after they have been on antibiotics but he didn’t say why, he just said tapeworms won’t hurt him, I’d prefer no worms…. so the next time he had too take the Metronidazole again, I wormed him first then started the Metronidazole the next day & when he was finished taking the Metronidazole, I kept looking at his bum after he’d poo to see if I could see any more tape worms & I couldn’t….the thing is Patch doesn’t have fleas, the fleas don’t stay on him & jump back off him, the cat did have fleas at the time & Patch doesn’t kill wild prey mice, rats, rabbits, etc…

There’s several species of Tapeworms Dipylidium Caninum from fleas & Teania & Echinococcus species from mice, rats, rabbits, squirrels, deer & sheep…you have to wash all bedding everything he sleeps on.. Does Doc eat wild prey?

I was giving Patch probiotics Protexin Soluble but it was expensive $60 for 1 month, so I found another dog probiotic Vetafarm at the pet shop with the same ingredients for $20 but I don’t think the Vetafarm was as good as the Protexin & I stopped giving probiotics to him then about 3 months ago I saw a Animal Naturopath cause I wanted to put Patch on a raw diet & she sent out human live probiotic capsules that were dairy & gluten free, I had to open the capsule & put only half a capsule on the raw meal, Patches itchy smelly skin & red paws all went away within 3 days of being on the raw diet, the only problem he was regurgitating the raw, water was coming up into his mouth about 3 hours after eating the raw & he hadn’t drank any water after breakfast & he was swallowing & swallowing it, this water came out of his mouth one day while we were shopping & went all down my shopping bag, that’s when I seen it was water & a few little bits of blended veggies thru the water, I think the enzymes were breaking down the raw meat too quickly, so I had to stop the raw cause he was getting acid reflux & a sore throat but I was shattered & so was Patch, he loved his raw Kangaroo, so I started to cook extra lean beef mince & the same, he was regurgitating the cooked meal as well….. the thing is he doesn’t regurgitate wet tin food if its chunky or soaked kibble put thru a blender, so I started looking for wet tin foods but I couldn’t find a low fat, low fiber wet tin food in the Pet Shops, Wellness has their Core grain free reduced fat but the fiber is 3%, so that will be too high when converted to dry matter, so I tried the Hills & Royal Canine low fat vet diets but they all have boiled rice & boiled rice goes thru Patch (diarrhea) the corn or something in the vet wet diets was making him itch & smell again, so about 2 weeks ago I went to the Supermarket & I started to read all the ingredients, fat & fiber in all the wet tin foods & I bought a 700g tin of Purina Supercoat Homestyle casserole Lamb Veggies & Pasta, the Purina seemed to have the best ingredients fish oil, vitamins & minerals, the fat was 4%, fiber-1%max, I also bought another brand that was duck the smaller foiled wet tin food, it had only 2% fat, we tried the duck first at night his last feed he loved it but poo wasn’t as good as they are now on the Lamb Casserole…. I would need 10-12 small foil tins of the duck a day & it works out too expensive to feed…
I also started him on the Royal Canine Intestinal low fat kibble about 2 weeks before, cause when I went to buy his regular Hypoallergenic, gluten, dairy, sugar & potato free kibble “Salmon & Sardines with brown rice & green veggies” it had a Gold sticker saying “New Improved Omega 3,6, & 9 formula” so I looked & all the ingredients were still the same, so I bought the bag of kibble but the new kibbles were smaller & black & felt real greasy, even when I soaked the kibble in water, I could feel the greasiness & Patch was getting his real bad acid reflux again, so I stopped the Meals For Mutts kibble & I gave the R/C low fat Kibble ago… but he has spewed up the R/C Low Fat kibble a few times that’s then I thought I’ll give the wet tin food a go again, I’m feeding the Purina Lamb Casserole for breakfast, for lunch & dinner the R/C low fat kibble & the Purina Lamb Casserole for his last small dinner & he doing the best poos ever.. so today I’m going to just try feeding the Purina Casserole all day & see how he goes & see if he start to get his yeasty smell again, I take out the beans & wholemeal pasta & throw it away & I’ve been adding a little bit of boiled sweet potatos & some boiled chicken, I have a freezer full of cooked foods for him that he regurgitates when feed by themselves, so I’m going to add them with the Lamb casserole tin food & see how he goes… I really think the kibble is causing all his problems with Helicobacter, S.I.B.O, acid reflux & nausea..

With soluble & insoluble fibers you need to work out how Doc goes, if you have ever tried the Hills Z/d kibble, Hills I/d Gastro or the Hills W/d all these kibbles have more insoluble fiber, the Hills Z/d was making Patch do 1 big cow paddy poo in the morning, his poo was just slop & he started to smell real bad with yeast on the Hills Z/d kibble probably the Corn Starch, so Patch doesn’t do well on insoluble fiber, he does better poos on soluble fiber but soluble fiber sits in the stomach longer, where insoluble fiber passes the stomach into the small bowel, so I don’t know is that a good thing for S.I.B.O probably not…

If you can try & get Doc on wet food or raw is the best, a lean protein, like Rabbit, Chicken, Turkey, Kangaroo these are all low in fat… I never added any bone in the begining, the Naturopath said no bone or organ meat yet cause of his IBD… maybe give him his kibble for dinner & try the wet tin or raw for breakfast but I never mixed the 2 together Raw & kibble or wet tin & kibble…. I thought it will just sit in his stomach & something will happen, it always does with him lol… another thing try 1 new thing at a time so if anything happens you will know what is causing what..

[zcRiley]

ZiwiPeak dehydrated raw, lamb formula. One protein complete balanced diet. A food allergy testing kit might be worth your while, too!

[Pitlove]

Wow, really sorry to hear that all that didn’t work out. During the time that I was fighting with my dog for him to eat I tried a lot of ways of preparing his food. First I tried kibble on the bottom of the bowl with some canned on top- that didn’t work. Then I tried using my hands and mixing the kibble and canned together- didn’t work either he hated it. Then I tried feeding the kibble first and his reward for eating the kibble was a little canned- that kinda worked but there were times where he still didn’t eat. So, I thought to myself that maybe he has an issue with the texture that these combinations created so I tried canned on the bottom of the bowl with dry on top- he ate it, no issue at all! I’ve continued to do that for a long time until we stumbled on Nature’s Logic and he was willing to eat it without canned at all! Now he loves food so much that I can use canned food as a topper again and have his dry on the bottom and it saves me money and he eats no issue.

Really glad your husband is willing to let you try homecooked meals though. Thats great. Another thing to look into would be a commercial raw company like Darwin’s, so you don’t have to worry about the food being complete and balanced because it already is. With Darwin’s they do autoshipping, but you can cancel or change the order at any time and they start you off with a starter pack for 14.95$ including the shipping. If you want to go the way of making your own meals, I would highly recommend working with a veterinary nutritionist to come up with meals that would be complete and balanced. It can risk your dogs health if you feed an unbalanced raw/homecooked diet even more so than feeding a low quality kibble.

[Dixie W]

I’m trying to switch my 12 year old boston terrier from kibble to raw as he has been diagnosed with Cushing’s. He has gained 5 lbs which is because of the Cushing’s and I am trying to help him loose that weight so he will be more comfortable. I am reducing his kibble to 1/2 cup and adding salmon , frozen veggies which he has always loved, fish oil and kefir for his tummy. He licks the bowl every time. Does anyone have any suggestions on a more permanent diet for him .

[Jonathan S]

I have two border collies… 9 months and 11 months. They’re very fickle about their protein sources… Both are intolerant of bison and venison, one can handle beef but the other cannot. Both are sensitive to changes in fats in their diet… too much fat causes them some nasty stools, but too little and they get dry and itchy.

I had them on Taste of the Wild for a long time, but they get really twitchy moving from one mix to another. I’m starting them on Acana Sport and Agility this week. I feed them half raw food as well.

Remember with borders that their metabolism tends to run hot due to their need to work and possibly work long past exhaustion. If you normally feed once a day you might want to consider twice a day for the BC.

[Anonymous]

“I don’t know what’s causing my poor puppy to be sick like this constantly. I want to find the cause and get him treated ASAP. I heard from a vet tech friend of mine that raw diet will cause bladder and UTI problems. I asked my current vet and they said it is possible. Is this true? Why can other dogs thrive on it but not mine?”

If it’s not the diet…his problems may have a genetic component. We can’t control genetic, but we can make changes regarding diet, exercise (external things) and see if that makes a difference.
I would consider asking your vet for a referral to a specialist, if he can’t get to the bottom of it.
BTW: Maybe you know this already, but corgis are high energy working dogs (herding). They love to eat and tend to put weight on easily. I had to walk mine 5 miles a day to keep her in shape. Hope this helps.

[Pitlove]

Eh I use a prong collar for Bentley (I exhausted all other options first for his pulling), however I took the time to watch proffessional trainers show how to properly put them on. Aside from that I had the same idea of SkeptVet lol. Not to mention he doesn’t actually post scientific evidence stating the raw diets are pointless, he simply says there is no scientific studies showing the benefits. Not to mention science is changing all the time, therefore, as all my human bio, psych and regular biology teachers have told us, there is no absolute truth in science. Not to mention all the feeding trials that people want to see to prove whether or not a food works successfully do not show long term (5+ years) effects of use. It would be impossible to have a feeding trial last that long. Thats why despite it not being “scientific”, people’s experiences with prolonged longevity in their dogs based on whatever diet they are feeding has to be taken into account.

[Pitlove]

I have. He is extremely against raw diets. All he talks about is how there is no evidence stating the need for a raw ancestral diet and there is too much risk of bacterial contamination. The OP doesn’t need someone who isn’t going to objectively say ‘ok lets try to figure this out and not jump to the conclusion that it’s the raw diet’.

Third article down in that link and the next 2 prove my point.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 5 months ago by Pitlove.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 5 months ago by Pitlove.

[Pitlove]

My dog had the same thing happen on Sojo’s freeze dried. Very very weird. He normally poops 2 times a day MAYBE 3 if he ate something that is causing loose poop or diaherra, but normally 2. All the sudden on Sojo’s he’s pooping 3-4 times a day. They were small compact solid poops, but he was going way more frequently. Another poster on here, Dori, mentioned that her dog did the same thing. It’s got to be something with freeze dried raw. Personally I’m stopping the Sojo’s to see if there is an improvement. I know you don’t want to change foods again, but you might need to look into something else for his diet.

[Pitlove]

It’s unlikely the raw diet is causing the UTI’s, but it isn’t impossible. Raw diets have extremely high moisture content and should be flushing the kidneys out enough to stop the formation of crystals. That being said, perhaps there is an ingredient in the diet or another cause that is forming the UTI’s.

Consulting and working with your vet is great, but like with humans sometimes one persons opinion is not enough to solve the problem and one person might not have all the info. I would highly suggest contacting other vets and possibly even a nutritionist to make sure the raw diet you are feeding is appropriate and doesn’t contain anything that could be causing these frequent UTI’s.

Edit: For the record, SkeptVet is not the only source on the internet and he already has a bias opinion about raw.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 5 months ago by Pitlove.

[CornchipCorgi]

My puppy is now an 8 month old corgi. Shortly after getting him from his breeder we transitioned him to a raw diet. However starting in January when he was about 2 months old he’s had recurring UTIs. Since then we have visited the vet 3 times and had him on 4 different antibiotics. From what they told us he has crystals in his urine because his urine has a very low pH. We feed him cranberry powder with his raw.

I don’t know what’s causing my poor puppy to be sick like this constantly. I want to find the cause and get him treated ASAP. I heard from a vet tech friend of mine that raw diet will cause bladder and UTI problems. I asked my current vet and they said it is possible. Is this true? Why can other dogs thrive on it but not mine?

[Kona]

Hi all. I have been transitioning my dog (11 years old) to raw food over the past month. I have been feeding raw for breakfast and kibble at dinner, mainly because of the costs. However, she’s doing so well on the raw I’ve decided to suck it up and go completely raw (if it means I have to eat out less then that’s what I have to do). I have her on AllProvide turkey and beef. I have a couple questions and was hoping some of the more experienced raw feeders could help:

1) AllProvide packages in 16oz pouches. According to her “ideal” weight (she’s 75 lbs now but I’d like to see her down to 68-70 lbs) the food chart says she should have 22 oz per day. I’d like to keep her on one pouch per day. Any ideas on how I can supplement the additional 6 oz? I feed raw goat’s milk so there are some calories there. She also gets a few “treats” – cucumbers, sweet potato biscuits, but maybe only 100-150 calories. I bought some grass-fed beef organs – liver, kidney, heart. Should I add some of this to her food (AllProvide already includes these though in the food so I wasn’t sure if that would be too much)? Anything else I can add to reach her 22 oz?

2) She seems to digest it too quickly, which on one hand is good since i know she’s digesting it better than kibble but the problem is by late afternoon she will throw up a little bile (ever since she was a puppy this happens whenever her stomach is empty for too long). I’ve been having to put a little kibble in her kong when i leave for work to prevent this. I’d hate to keep adding kibble to her diet since I’ll be going completely raw. Anything I can add or suggestions?

Thanks!

[Jonathan S]

I’m sure this has probably been covered before, but I’m looking for a recommendation for a supplement to help cover itchy, dry skin on my dogs.

I’m in the process of rotating my dogs off their current kibble (they’re on the last of their Taste of the Wild) and on to Acana/Orijen, so I’m hoping that the change in food will help. This bloom of dry skin comes with a combination of changing the TotW mix from fish to lamb, and some hot dry weather here in Seattle. I’m also feeding my dogs raw food as half of their diet and they’re doing well with that.

I’ve experimented with a number of food supplements. The most recent that seems to work well for them digestively is Flora4. I do include coconut oil in their diet, but sometimes the additional fat can have some effects on their stool quality. I see commercials on TV for Dinovite, but I’m pretty sure that’s not where I want to go.

Anyone have any suggestions?

[Taylor C]

Hi! I have a boxer/pit mix with severe skin allergies. About 6 weeks ago, we switched her over to Grandma Lucy’s Pureformance food and within a week saw a difference in her skin condition. While we’ve been very happy with the food and results, our dog has been pooping a lot more (3 – 6x/day, very soft) and has lost some weight as a result. And feeding her larger amounts only seems to make her poop that much more. She’s also had a lot more gas than usual. We’ve tried so many different foods, raw diet, countless rounds of steroids and antibiotics prior to discovering Grandma Lucy’s and nothing has worked. We love Grandma Lucy’s and really don’t want to switch foods again, so I’m wondering if anyone knows of a supplement or food we could add to her meals that may help her absorb the nutrients better and reduce the number of poops. I’ve recently begun adding chia seeds and apple cider vinegar, along with a little plain Greek yogurt here and there. Thanks in advance!

[losul]

Hi Red. I do think it’s important to use caution with these things. Even if a vet were to give instructions to give antacids/inhibitors to my dog (or even a Doctor to me) on any kind of regular basis, I would be asking questions and investigating, is it acid reflux? what is causing it, how do I get to he root of the problem, and not just treat symptoms, what could/would be the consequences, could it actually be caused by low stomach acid, etc..
———–
Hi Sue, I’m sorry couldn’t respond sooner, my time is limited lately, and having internet troubles on top of that.. I don’t find much about lymphocytic gastritis in dogs, or at least searching those 2 particular words alone. In humans, “Lymphocytic gastritis is a rare gastritis primarily diagnosed by the surgical pathologist. There is a peculiar infiltration of benign lymphocytes into the glands and surface mucosa. It may be associated with celiac disease and Helicobacter infection of the stomach. There are case reports of clearing of the disease by treatment for Helicobacter infection in the stomach.”

http://www.thedoctorsdoctor.com/diseases/stomach_lymphocytic_gastritis.htm

In dogs, most of the hits I came up as canine lymphocytic-plasmacytic gastroenteritis and is still of unknown causes(idiopathic). “Canine lymphocytic-plasmacytic gastroenteritis(LP) is one disease in a group of idiopathic, chronic intestinal diseases collectively termed inflammatory bowel disease (IBD), and is considered to be the most common cause of chronic vomiting and diarrhea in dogs. LP gastroenteritis is characterized by a diffuse infiltration of lymnphocytes and plasma cells into the lamina propria of the stomach and/or the small intestine resulting in diffuse mucosal inflammation. Lymphocytic-plasmacytic is the most prevalent form of IBD.”

https://www.addl.purdue.edu/newsletters/2007/Fall/clpg.html

Kind of a side note, and really just a curiosity, I found this study to be of interest, specially the apparent surprising resolution of the disease state, after all the numerous testing and therapies failed, and when the client was finally discouraged by no improvements, stopped all of it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1082873/

The “fundic region” would be the upper main portion of the stomach and should generally be much less acidic, especially at the beginninh process of digestion than the the lower portions. I think that would likely be why Patch’s diagnosis comments read that Helicobacter was usually more prominent in the fundic (less acidic) region.

“•The fundus, which is the main upper portion of the stomach. Fundus means
“enlargement” and refers to the rounded enlarged area at the top of the stomach.
Food gets ground, mixed, and held in the fundus. It is in the fundus that enzymatic
digestion takes place, assuming there are live enzymes present with your meals (or
if you are using digestive enzyme supplements). Although stomach acid will be
released into the fundus, IT IS ONLY AT ABOUT 30% CONCENTRATION and will not affect
enzymatic digestion. After about 40-60 minutes in the fundus, the chyme will move
on into the body of the stomach.”

“•The body, which is the large middle section of the stomach. It is a primary area
of digestion, and it is here that hydrochloric acid and pepsin begin to work full
bore, and at levels sufficient to stop most enzymatic digestion.

•The antrum, which is the last part of the stomach before the pylorus, the gate
which prevents food from entering the intestine before its time. Actually, the
major portion of digestion takes place in the antrum as food is held a long time
and parceled out to the duodenum in a very slow, methodical manner. Incidentally,
antrum means cave and pylorus means gatekeeper.”

Your Stomach, Part 1

I think there’s some REALLY good articles/summaries on that site, especially
pertaining to human digestive/gastric systems, but most of it would be relevant to dogs
also. He does deal with alternatives/naturapathic/holistic, and does also sell
supplements, I don’t necessarily agree with all he says, but I think it’s one of
the most comprehensive, complete, and easiest to understand articles/primers on
digestion I’ve seen.here is the article “your stomach, part 3” , which may most
pertain, especially to the significant importance of acid in digestion/health, but
be sure to read all parts 1,2,3. and the overview on digestion also. In fact most of the whole digestion series is a good read.

Your Stomach, Part 3

http://jonbarron.org/article/overview-digestive-system#.Va1zwGd0w5s

Digestive System

I’m not sure where the “water” would be coming from after Patch ate his raw. Not
excessive saliva? Did you add water to the raw food? Adding water would dilute his
acid production. I’m not sure if you are saying that he threw up the raw or just
water? The enzymes i think should be even more important/purposeful on cooked
foods more so than raw. What kind of enzymes are they? Just go very slow on them at first. I would think Patch’s bio-fauna is much out of whack, and needs to be re-established with good bacteria. He may have mineral/vitamin deficiencies also. I was a little surprised that tha naturpath wanted to immediately switch Patch to raw. I would be a little hesitant to go full force raw right away, knowing Patch’s condition, which is why it’s important to be upfront with the
naturopath as much as possible. Has the naturpath seen Patch, or was it just a
consult? Is it Lew Olson?

If it were me, I would take just baby steps, but I’d give the Naturpath’s advice a
fair shot, and keep her/him informed. Not make too many changes all at once, or
expect too much all at once. Build up very slowly on everything, the probiotics,
the enzymes, the cooked or raw foods.Has Patch been weaned off antacids since the
Helicobacter treatment and fairly stable most of the time with what he’s eating
now? Can you try to introduce just a snack size meal of cooked along with
appropriate small portion enzymes or maybe later raw in between those regular
meals, and just very gradually increasing while decreasing the regular? I’m not
familiar with Roo meat, how easy to digest, how much fat, saurated fats, etc. I
think in the U.S. it’s thought that lean chicken is one of the easiest proteins to
digest, along with well cooked white rice. Vets often advise this temporarily for
gastric distress (provided they don’t have a sensitivity to chicken) and it works
for many dogs. I’ve heard you say that Patch and grounded rice don’t get along? I
don’t understand what you mmean by grounded. In the U.S. white rice is milled and
has the husk, bran and germ removed, leaving virtually only the starchy interior,
it’s usually then “enriched” with some vitamins/minerals. Should be fairly easy to
digest by most dogs. Eventually though I would want to get him off all that starch,
and get him on a more balanced diet. Are you giving him any vitamins/minerals at
all?

On another note, there are a couple of U.S. vets now using fecal matter transplants
for dogs, from only verified healthy donor dogs of course. For humans, it’s
catching on a bit more now, even in a few hospitals, with very promising results from persistent or recurrent IBD, SIBO, colitis, that is usually caused by
persistent, pathogenic, and resistant overgrowths/infections.

Sue, Maybe Patch can’t be completely cured, but I believe with the determination
you’ve shown and continue to show, he WILL get better. There’s alot of people
rooting for you and Patch, I know that I’m one of those!

P.S. I might not be able to write back for a while again.

———————
Hi weezerweeks, y/w.

I understand your concerns with Bailey. Best wishes for his best health!

Let us know how the vet visit goes.

[Kristin C]

Hi-no one has mentioned this so I will. I live in CT so I know the circumstances are different, but I do hate treating my dogs with chemicals. We use Advantix on our 2 pups every 6 weeks normally. For their last treatment, instead of a full dose, we gave them half of a dose PLUS I have been giving them B-complex in their food each night. No ticks, no fleas. If it continues we will eliminate the Advantix, but I am sure we will not be able to eliminate it completely, we always treat them with a full dose of Advantix before we travel.

I will also add that they eat mostly a raw diet so they get B vitamins through the liver they eat, which is apparently what naturally repels the fleas and ticks.

[Susan]

Hi Iosul, if Patch was your dog what would you do? When Patch had Endoscope & biopsies done last December 2014 the Diagnosis said “Moderate to chronic Lymphocytic Gastritis with associated spiral bacteria infection”.. her comment was “Helicobacter are controversial pathogens in dogs & cats being present in asymptomatic animals. Where there is significant pathology in combination with characteristic clinical signs they may be significant. It is more common to see larger numbers of them in the fundic region of the stomach. This could also be a manifestation of MORE EXTENSIVE inflammatory bowel disease..

The live Probiotics the Naturopath wanted him to take make him feel sick they’re gluten &
dairy free & are kept in the fridge I read that some probiotics can make you feel sick, the Naturopath said we need to fix his gut to get his stomach pH back to 1 again but Patch
kept regurgitating the raw diet water would come back up into his mouth & he would swallow & swallow it.. how I know it was water that was coming up is he went to look in my shopping bag to see what a lady had given me & he did his regurgitating all down the side of my bag, it just happens & he hadn’t drank any water only ate his kangaroo & 2 spoons of blended veggies about 3 hours after eating the raw for breakfast, then I thought maybe the enzymes broke the raw down too quick so I tried without the enzymes & Patch felt sick & was eating grass, like the Naturopath said would happen, I asked her what will the enzymes do she said stop any nausea & help stop any bowel rumbling & diarrhea….so I stopped the raw diet enzymes & probiotic & put him back on his kibble & started to cook but he regurgitated the cooked food as well & I never gave enzymes or probiotic, the thing is he doesn’t regurgitate soaked kibble or wet tin foods, then I thought could there be too much protein in the raw & cooked diet & he cant handle all that meat Kangaroo or beef.. where the wet tin food only has 7% (30%) protein.. the kibble he’s eating has about 22% protein.. I don’t know I cant work out how to fix him…. I will photo copy the link you posted… I need to find out how to make his gut healthy again.. I’ve tried low fat greek yogurt he started his licking & licking his mouth & wanted grass..
Lew Olson said give him L-Glutamine & cabbage juice to help with the nausea..

My vet said we may never fix this problem, at least he’s not in the condition he was in when you rescued him, I said, I suppose but I want him healthy & pain free 🙁

[Pitlove]

SkeptVet- I think you’re assuming that we are lumping all veterinarians together into one uneducated category. We’re not. We are fully aware that veterinary nutritionists exist and have extensive training in canine nutrition and that integrative vet’s also have more education on the subject as well. We are specifically talking about your run-of-the-mill, average vet that went through vet school and persuded nothing else in the way of canine nutrition education. If my vet can not have an intelligent, opened minded discussion about nutrition and food and is only pushing whatever presciption foods are on their shelves or only willing to recommend foods high in corn, wheat, soy, by-products and a bunch of other junk, I think it’s safe to assume they don’t have much training in nutrition, hence why I mentioned people’s testimonies of their vets flat out admitting they are NOT given much education about canine nutrition in vet school. Are they lying? Do you think they would put their reputation on the line by being dishonest about something like that? I don’t.

I also don’t really understand how it doesn’t make sense to you that a raw diet or homecooked diet would not be better for a species that existed for thousands of years without Science Diet and Purina. Commercial dog food has only existed for about the last 100 years, so tell me, what did dogs eat before that first bag of “dog food” was created?

Commercial dog food doesn’t exist because it is nutritionally more sound for dogs, it exists because of the convenience factor for the human providing for the dog. The average person does not have the time to prepare meals for themselves, let alone their animals, as their animals often come second to their human families and children.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 5 months ago by Pitlove.

[Pitlove]

So this brings us to the problem with kibble in general. Those starchy carbohyrate sources provide one main thing in kibble; a binder. In order to have it’s shape kibble needs a carbohydrate to bind the food together, therefore you will never see a kibble that is completely carb free. Wysong Epigen 90 is the closest thing at only 4% carbs. Impressive for a kibble. It is really a shame that Nature’s Logic has alfalfa in it because millet is a hypo-allergenic seed and is easily digested by dogs. Millet being the carb source in NL.

If your dog is prone to yeast, staying away from starchy carbs is best, but IMO the lesser of all the evils in that list is lentils and chickpeas.

Most people will tell you that completely getting rid of allergies requires a raw diet and to be honest thats probably true. But that would take working with a nutritionist and developing recipes that would work for her and then actually making them.

Canned foods also will offer you more choices that kibble of less grains and starches, however they are not without them. Maybe look into dehyrated raw?

Edit: Also on the subject of Tripe. Most tripe is not considered complete and balanced. I know Tripett isn’t for one. One that is complete and balanced is Solid Gold’s Green Beef Tripe. I’ve used that for my dog and he loved it. Didn’t smell bad to me either.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 5 months ago by Pitlove.

[InkedMarie]

SkeptVet: you can do whatever you want. When it comes to nutrition, I do my own
research & talk to my holistic vet if I need to. I feed prey model raw, in ground
form. I honestly don’t care what my regular vets think about it. Since I see
vet food by Royal Canin, Purina & Hills/Science Diet on their shelves, that in
itself is telling. If they think those are good foods then they don’t know
enough about nutrition to advise me. Also, I don’t need advice. I can read.

Note that I said vets get very little nutrition training in vet school; if a vet is a
nutritionist or holistic vet, they have had more nutritional training.

Lastly, I own the pets, not my vet. That means that as long as am not abusing my
dogs, I’m free to make choices on what to do with my dogs.

[aquariangt]

Would you say, in general, that a human diet of dry, processed food, even if considered a complete meal (think perhaps, an MRE, backpackers food, maybe a diet of cheerios, ramen, and V8 Juice? I don’t know, throwing some examples) would be more beneficial than fresh food? If so, what would be the difference for dogs?

That said, I do feed kibble with canned, fresh, raw etc toppers, out of placement in my life right now, though I fully intend to move back towards a homemade diet at some point

[SkeptVet]

C4D,
The blogger I linked to is a veterinary infectious disease expert, and he discusses specific scientific evidence in the post I linked to, so this is not merely opinion but opinion informed by evidence and relevant expertise. The second link was not about raw diets because, as I tried to make clear in my post, I was not making a broad claim about raw diets but only responding to the specific comment that dogs were not susceptible to Salmonella infection or associated illness, a false claim that is often used to deny any potential risk to feeding raw meat. Again, I try to be specific and focused in these discussions since otherwise people waste energy arguing past one another.

The evidence is clear that infectious disease is a risk from any type of diet, that it is a greater risk from uncooked foods than cooked foods, and that it is a greater risk for people with potential immune system vulnerabilities (very young, very old, pregnant, ill, on immunosuppressive medications, etc.). This evidence needs to be considered when making choices about feeding raw. If evidence emerges that there are significant health benefits to doing so, then such risks may be worth taking and, as you suggest, it is appropriate to minimize them as best we can. If, however, there are no benefits to feeding raw compared with cooked homemade or commercial diets, then why take the risk at all? I’m still waiting for controlled studies looking at the relative merits of different feeding strategies because I don’t think the existing evidence is at all definitive.

Until that evidence is available, of course, we all need to make feeding decisions, and some may choose raw on the basis of the theoretical arguments or indirect evidence. That’s fine, and I’m not here to dissuade anybody.

What is problematic is when people make definitive claims that are supported by personal belief or anecdotes rather than real evidence. If you say your pets are healthy on a raw diet, that’s a perfectly fair observation. My pets are healthy on commercial diets, and neither experience says anything generalizable about raw vs. commercial foods. If, however, people claim raw must be healthier because of their personal experiences with it or because of the dubious theoretical arguments put forward for it, that’s not a legitimate claim. And if people claim all sorts of dire health problems caused by commercial diets, again those aren’t legitimate claims either without appropriate scientific evidence to support them.

[SkeptVet]

So if we are believers in raw diets, we should ignore most vets’ opinions on nutrition since they don’t know anything about it (and yet, somehow, we do know about nutrition even without any formal education, presumably because we’ve read some articles on the internet or some books on the subject). This includes ignoring the vast majority of board-certified veterinary nutritionists, who agree that there is no evidence supporting the claims for raw diets. They don’t know much about nutrition even though it is their specialty.(Oh, right, they are either deceived or lying because they are all pawns/shills for the pet food industry.) Yet, if a vet recommends raw then we should listen to them because obviously they do know about nutrition since they agree with us and so must be both well-informed and completely without bias or outside influences.

What this kind of discussion suggests is that the real issue is not how much vets know about nutrition but simply that we are looking only for sources of information that agree with what we already believe. The same applies to asking a “holistic vet” about vaccines. There is no reason to think such vets are better informed or know more about immunology than any others, but they must be a more reliable source of information because they agree with what you already believe.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but all opinions can be fairly and equally ignored if they don’t come with supporting evidence. And discussions about the evidence are more productive than discussions about opinions because they are less likely to degenerate into personalized and pointless debate. So far, there hasn’t been much discussion in this thread about specifics or evidence, mostly just opinion and “credentials.”

I tried to respond specifically and with evidence concerning the particular statements that “vets don’t know anything about nutrition” and that certain microorganisms in raw meat can’t be harmful to dogs. That shouldn’t be taken to mean anything more or less than what I said on those specific issues. For the record, I don’t know if raw diets have any health benefits compared with cooked fresh diets or commercial diets, and I don’t believe anyone else does either because there is no specific scientific evidence to answer that question. there are lots of theoretical arguments in both directions, and of course the usual persuasive yet utterly unreliable anecdotes, but not real data. I tend to suspect the ultimate answer will be that there is no benefit, but that’s just another opinion until there is real evidence.

[Gracie’s Mom]

. . .but wouldn’t it be great to have a sort of calculator that allows you to input ingredients that you want to avoid, and it would then filter all the dog foods listed on the site, leaving only the foods that don’t include those ingredients? That would be so helpful to those of dealing with numerous food allergies and picky eaters.

I spend a great deal of time looking for foods to add into rotation that 1) my dog will eat (very picky!), 2) don’t cost a small fortune to feed a 65-pounder, 3) don’t contain one of her many allergens (white potato, rice, alfalfa, flax, peanut, soybean, rabbit. . .being just the more severe ones), and 4) provide a good nutritional balance (high in protein and not ridiculously high in fat with some fiber). I should also add that I’m a big believer in grain-free and minimal cooking/processing, but have a husband who is opposed to a home-cooked diet for our girl (that’s another story).

We started out with Darwin’s and that seemed to work great until she decided not to eat it anymore. I’ve since not had any luck with frozen raw. She just barks at it. Ziwipeak was good for a while, then she quit eating it. I’ve tried Arcana Duck and Bartlett Pear (the least successful in terms of willingness to eat it), and several freeze dried and dehydrated brands that don’t contain something on the allergy list. There don’t seem to be many options once the allergens are eliminated.

We’ve just started on Against the Grain canned, but there are only two proteins available, and she would need four cans a day, which would be expensive. I need something less expensive to add to it. Also, I have to offer variety, or she will refuse to eat anything in a few weeks. I’m going to try rotating in ZiwiPeak again. She has consistently liked K-9 Naturals freeze-dried, which I often mix with Honest Kitchen’s Preference Base Mix, but I’m concerned about the extremely high fat content in the K-9, and she has been a bit iffy on the Preference lately, sometimes refusing to eat it at all. The K-9 venison has somewhat lower fat, so I’m going to keep that in rotation. I’ve just ordered some small bags of Fresh Is Best freeze-dried to see how she likes that. She also likes Vital Essentials freeze dried, usually mixed with canned Tripett to provide some moisture. She does love tripe, but I know it doesn’t provide everything she needs nutritionally.

I worry not just about her allergies but also a diet too high in fat. She’s a three-year old lab mix and pretty active. She needs lots of protein and some fiber (judging from poop consistency).

I don’t currently have her on any supplements, having taken her off of them the last time she refused to eat her food (I’ve always put liquid or powdered supplements in her food, because she won’t eat treat-style supplements or pills). I need to identify any supplements that she may not be getting from her diet and try to find a way to get those in her.

It’s a difficult thing to manage. All advice is welcome. Mike–any chance for that ingredient eliminator program?

[Sarah L]

Hi there everyone,
Just wanted to drop a quick line as I searched with much frustration for months in regards to home made food as we have one schnauzer with seizures. The lack of information and conflicting information out there about home made diets is enough to make you bang your head against a wall …….. very frustrating !!!! We heard a lot about the raw diet, but I just could not bring myself to feed my dog raw meat, just my personal preference, but found a fantastic alternative to feeding raw. After much searching and many trials I was afraid we were not giving the girls enough nutrition and I was always concerned if they were getting enough of the nutrients they needed and a well balanced diet with cooking at home. We came across this company called U-Stew and we have not switched to anything else since. Basically you add this supplement to cooked protein and if you choose some veggies and voila !! It looks and smells like canned dog food …. our girls love it and we make it in big batches and freeze it in jam jars, very convienient. After the girls being on this diet for just a year we had all their blood work done to ensure they were getting all the nutrients required in their diets and they both passed with flying colors !!! …… Amazing !!! Here is the website we found the product https://www.knowbetterpetfood.com/U-Stew. Maybe not for anyone, but if I can help anyone with this tidbit of info, I am happy for that.

[Dori]

Just wanted to take a second and agree with pitlove on her recommendation of Nature’s Logic. When I still had kibble along with our commercial raw diet rotation, Nature’s Logic was the only one I was able to use and was really happy with. One of my dogs has many food sensitivities, intolerances and allergies. The millet in Nature’s Logic never bothered her in the least.

I’ve never used Farmina as all of their dog foods either contain some form of poultry or potato which are no go’s for our dogs.

[Jonathan S]

I’m in the same boat… I have two border collie pups 34 and 36 pounds. Half their diet is raw food of my own creation, so the kibble goes a long way. I want to be able to feed them a variety to keep them interested and I think I’ve finally found the brand I want to switch to as they have lots of choices for flavor mixes (going with Orijen/Acana). I’ll probably stick with the 15ish pound bags so they can be rotated to different flavors on just about a monthly basis.

I was just curious about if there is a concern over freshness, what is the threshold for that concern. I think I’ll be fine if I keep rotating.

[Miss Koa]

Thank you C4D re: commercial mixes. I didn’t know that. I thought it was actual meat already mixed like sometimes you see those ones in a roll? I was thinking it was those. Thank you for clarifying. 🙂

Jonathan S – lol! Nah, you don’t sound like a jerk. It is what it is, and you are right. My pup’s eaten goose poop, cat poop, picked up (but not eaten, thank goodness!) dead mice etc. So yeah. I see your point. 🙂
Plus, so far, we are all still alive. Lol! I have been feeding her raw chicken in the evenings.

I guess I was overly concerned because I bake cookies as a side “business” of sorts, and of course I make sure everything is clean and sanitized….even before we started the raw diet… But was scared mostly about transference…like say, if my husband or child had played with the dog earlier, then came to the kitchen and their shirt rubbed onto the counter or something and I didn’t know…then started baking…etc. Just was wondering the risks. Maybe the risk is very low, but I just wanted opinions. I wouldn’t want to sell salmonella cookies! Lol!!!

Thank you again for taking the time to answer my question! 🙂

[Pitlove]

Hi Alison– First I want to say congrats on your Boxer pup. My aunt had one when I was growing up and he was such a great dog. Jonathan offered some good advice, but one thing I NEED to stress to you is the importance of being aware the large/giant breed dogs (like a boxer) have very special dietary requirements from 8 weeks of age to 8-10 months of age. They require proper calcium levels and a proper calcium to phosphorus ratio in order to support proper slow growth and help in preventing skeletal diseases that are common in large/giant breeds. If you are wanting to start your guy on raw which I highly recommend as large/giants have been known to live a lot longer on a raw diet, PLEASE make sure you consult with a nutritionist who KNOWS the actual dietary needs of a large/giant breed. Most should, especially if they are supportive of a raw diet.

Here is a testimony of a Newfoundland breeder who feeds a raw diet to his pups and his Sir’s and Dam’s. One of his newfie’s lived to the impressive age 17 years old!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=806j18u4S_g

[Jonathan S]

I’m not an expert, but I have been feeding my pups raw for a few months, so take this as you will. I think it will depend on if you’re planning to feed commercial raw, or make your own. The steps I would take (making my own) are…

1. Transition the pup to a quality kibble that you’re comfortable with and watch for any reactions to different protein sources.
2. Talk to your vet. If your vet is pro raw diet you will get good direction from them. If your vet is anti-raw, you will need to either seek another vet if you are committed to this, or stop talking about food to your vet.
3. Do research. There is a TON of good information out there. It can be daunting, and some of it will scare you, but do it anyway. Look on YouTube for Dr. Karen Becker. Lot’s of good info from her.
4. Don’t back down. People will try to tell you you’re doing the wrong thing. Don’t let them frighten you off.
5. Make a plan. In your research be sure to pay attention to the side effects of going raw and of changing food. Sometimes they can scare you and send you off to your vet or make you stop feeding raw, when really it’s just a natural adjustment reaction, or a reaction to the type of protein or amount of fat you’re using. Know what you can expect to see and be ready to react accordingly. Remember, when you stop feeding raw because of a stool problem or the such, it’s like you have to start over again.
6. Experiment. Begin adding raw into your pup’s diet and see how they react. Do they take the food well? Do they seem to like it? Start adding other ingredients and see how they react. Try to add the ingredients one at a time or you will have trouble figuring out which one, if any causes a problem.
7. Once you have a successful recipe, or more than one successful recipe, start replacing the kibble with the raw… go 25% raw to 75% kibble until the pup stabilizes, then go 50% raw to 50% kibble.
8. Watch your pup’s collar size, and keep tabs on their weight. You don’t want them too skinny or too fat. Hopefully you will have a pro-raw vet that can help guide you.

For myself I’m sticking to 50% raw 50% kibble just to make sure I don’t miss something important in their nutrition. My mix is pretty good, but a good quality kibble can be a nice safety net. I’m hoping to get to the point where I can do 75% raw and 25% kibble, but I want to refine my process more before I go there.

I hope this helps!

[Anonymous]

I am not familiar with the foods you mentioned, I would go with the prescription food recommended by the veterinarian that is treating your dog. I thought the article below made sense. Hope this helps.

http://dalmatianrescue.org/info/feeding.htm
By Beth White, Melody Kennels
We generically recommend for most Dalmatians foods with the protein source of chicken and turkey, with protein levels in the range of 20-24%. No one food is good for all dogs, but with this range it should cover most dogs. Rather than the protein level, the source of the protein is what is important. Chicken and turkey are the lowest in purines.

If a Dalmatian has urinary problems then it usually means that he can’t break down purines in his diet. Beef is highest in purines so we recommend the other protein sources. We also suggest that Dalmatians (again, most dogs) be fed scraps as a healthy addition to their “balanced” diet. It is interesting to note that all foods, from Walmart’s Old Roy to the most expensive foods on the market state “nutritionally complete” or “balanced”. Ever wonder why pet foods are considered balanced but human food isn’t?

Scraps help make the dog’s diet more complete. One of the worst things that has happened to modern pets is modern dog food….but that is another story. When we used to slop the hogs and slop the dogs, we didn’t have hip dysplasia or many of the other more modern structural problems. Our convenient dog foods are an improvement in many ways, but they are not complete or balanced. Scraps are also “tasty” and fun for the dog.

Veterinarians began recommending not feeding human food when the average pet was found to be too fat., Moving from the farm to the city and from work to retirement caused many pets to loose their shape. Feeding too many scraps isn’t good if it adds weight to dog, but there are just too many nutrients that go down the drain or in the trash that are helpful and useful to our pets. Modern dog foods are not always the best source of nutrients (from a source of diseased livestock possibly, etc.). The foods are also shipped long distances and sit on the shelf sometimes for months, are exposed to heat, etc. All this contributes to reduction in the quality and quantity of nutrients within the food fed to our pets.

There is a growing movement of feeding dogs raw diets, with great health results. For more information, search for Bones and Raw Food diet (BARF), or authors Billingshurst or Pitcairn, who have excellent books on the subject, on the web. Another great resource for dog owners is The Whole Dog Journal. Call 1-800-829-9165 for a trial copy.

Some dogs (Dalmatians included) can’t tolerate ethoxyquin. It is best to feed a food without this preservative. Dalmatians (all dogs even) should always be fed with water added to their food. It need not be soaked, but served like milk on a bowl of cereal. Ask yourself why we add milk to a bowl of grain. It is easier to eat that way. But, with a Dalmatian, there is the added benefit of the dog taking in a larger quantity of water than normal (in order to get to his food) and he flushes his kidneys twice a day. This is good for the kidneys.

All dogs should be fed twice a day. Fortunately, most people have gotten away from feeding only once a day. Livestock is fed twice a day and we eat three times. Once a day simply isn’t enough. We don’t recommend free feeding because it isn’t practical if water is added to the food. If not eaten immediately, it becomes soggy and then either spoils or is wasted. Besides, food exposed to the air loses more of its nutritional potency.

When a Dalmatian has urinary stones the old method, prior to modern commercial kidney diets, was to feed rice and vegetables (cooked with oil, bacon grease, salt, herbs of all sorts for flavor, etc.). Cottage cheese can also be added. Commercial kidney foods are fine, but they are usually not very palatable and often expensive.

Rice and vegetables are healthy and any Dalmatian can live on them and look great. Nothing gets fat on rice! When I prepared this diet for a dog that I once kept, I cooked the rice with various types of oils (Olive, safflower, corn, etc.) and threw in whatever herbs and seasonings I had on the shelf. I also added potatoes, green beans, and many other vegetables. The rice concoction was quite tasty and I usually sampled it too! A vitamin/mineral supplement was also added.

Dogs fed rice and vegetables usually hold their weight quite well. The owner, however, must remember to feed more than he would feed commercial dog food. The good thing is that most dogs actually love rice and vegetables, when herbs and spices and oils are added during cooking. Most of the time this method only requires cooking twice a week. Cook large batches and refrigerate what isn’t fed. Warm cold rice concoction and water in the microwave slowly. When traveling, obviously, it would be better to take commercial kidney foods.
For non-chronic stone formers, but dogs with gravel or sediment in need of veterinary treatment, it is always best to follow your veterinarians advice. But, once the urine has attained a normal pH, attempt to start the dog back onto a quality commercial food. Often a dog’s system has been corrected and by feeding low purines and lots of water, he can return to commercial foods. Make sure that the food is WELL WATERED.

[Jonathan S]

Agreed! One thing to mention is that my pups are Border Collies, and they’re both under a year old, so their metabolism and tolerance are still being built up. Right now I’m feeding half raw diet (of my own making) and half kibble. I’m just looking to secure a high quality kibble that I’m comfortable with. At the moment my concerns are quality, integrity, and recipe. I spent a long time figuring out what the best/most stable protein source for my dogs are, so the kibble I go to needs to have a recipe that contains the protein source I’ve been moving toward… in this case, lamb.

In the near future I’ll be moving in a chicken direction, so that will bring up some other possibilities. I’m hoping to get them used to dynamic feeding so that I can keep their food varied and interesting for them without compromising on quality.

[C4D]

Let me preface this comment with the fact that I feed a variety of foods, including some kibble, canned, fresh cooked and commercial raw food. I have had no problems with my dogs or my family, including infants in the home on a regular basis. If you are an immune compromised person, I would definitely suggest a home cooked diet with a premix raw (these are only vegetables and vitamins) added as opposed to raw meat. Salmonella, listeria, and other bacterias are in many raw foods, including the ones we cook on a daily basis for our families. They can be present on the counters and sinks of our very own kitchen surfaces unless you clean and disinfect correctly. The bacteria can be present in treats, chews and dry dog food as well. Listeria is within the soil and water.

I also foster dogs and have had my share of dogs with Giardia, ringworm, demodex (not know to be infectious) and hookworms and have managed to not have any other person, child or dog infested with any of these problems. I am very proactive in testing my own dogs to ensure that they have not become infested with the various parasites that enter my home with the fosters.

There seems to be a bit of hysteria in the traditional veterinarian community. My own vet does accept the raw feeding of dogs as well as many of the more natural products, including the balanceit program, while also carrying some of the “therapeutic diets” for those that choose that route.

The problem with salmonella, is that it can also be linked to dry dog food:

CDC link:
http://www.cdc.gov/salmonella/dog-food-05-12/

CDC Salmonella General Info:

http://www.cdc.gov/salmonella/general/index.html

Skeptvet, in your regard to your links, the first one was someone’s blog, which of course, everyone has an opinion. I see this as the contrary to a holistic or natural feeder/vet’s blog.

The 2nd link, was a study of 442 salmonella isolates over a 58 year period. It doesn’t even state the point of the study! So what’s the point of this link in reference to a raw diet as there is no reference to a raw diet anywhere in the link? Yes, dogs can get salmonella, but they can also get cancer, arthritis, kidney disease and a host of other things.

The 3rd link was a study of 10 dogs being fed a homemade raw diet. Really? That’s not a very large study. Certainly not one that even the study could conclude was enough to draw any real conclusions, only a suggestion that infants and immune compromised people shouldn’t feed raw and perhaps a larger study should be done.
Did you also note that even though 80% (8 of the diets) of the raw diet tested positive for salmonella before fed, only 30% (3 dogs) of the dog’s had salmonella in their stool sample? An interesting note is that one of the 3 dogs that tested positive for salmonella was NOT fed a raw diet that had salmonella. So where did he get the salmonella from? And what did the other 6 dog’s digestive system do with the salmonella?

I do believe that if you feed raw, you have to be realistic and clean effectively and take precaution if there are small children in the household. If there are immune or cleanliness issues, then a balanced, fresh cooked diet would be the next best choice.

[jakes mom]

My understanding is that a dog’s GI tract is shorter and stomach acid is more acidic than human’s, this makes it safer for them to eat raw stuff without getting sick. My dog eats raw and loves raw meaty bones, has never been sick. Nor have I gotten sick by feeding it. Just wash hands and keep kitchen clean. Also, don’t forget that the government (FDA) has their nose into regulating pet food. Companies may have to issue “CYA” recalls even tho there’s really no danger to the dog.
That said, nothing’s right for all dogs and people. If you aren’t comfortable with the raw feeding, there are plenty of other options for you like cooking a homemade diet for your dog. Or just feeding a good quality canned food or kibble, altho those are prone to recalls, too. Nothing is 100% safe in life. You just do the best you can.

[Shawna]

Stephanie W,

Digestibility of protein is important but bioavailability is even more important. The better the cells of the body use the amino acids in the digested protein, the less BUN is created from the protein. Raw and lightly cooked home prepared foods are going to have better bioavailability than canned and canned will be better than kibbled diets.

Most vets recommend “low” protein diets for dogs in any stage (and sometimes even before) of kidney disease. This is actually a myth and why most prescription foods are not really appropriate for the earlier stages of the disease. What may need to be controlled however is phosphorus so not all foods of good digestibility and bioavailability will be appropriate for all stages of chronic kidney disease. Here’s a VERY reliable source on the low protein myth.
“Mythology of Protein Restriction for Dogs with Reduced Renal Function
Kenneth C. Bovée, DVM, MMedSc, Department of Clinical Studies, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Results of the 10 experimental studies on dogs have failed to provide evidence of the benefit of reduced dietary protein to influence the course of renal failure.” http://www.dogaware.com/files/bovee.pdf

If you are willing to feed raw look at a prescription diet created by vet Dr. Barbara Royal sold by Darwins. Dr. Meg Smart has a homemade kidney diet on her blog. I also like the Wysong diet Red mentions. Just make sure the food you chose has the appropriate amount of phosphorus for the stage of disease your specific dog is in. Unlike protein, phosphorus CAN cause further damage to the kidneys.

Lots of prayers and good luck being sent your way!!!

[Pitlove]

Hi- Take a look at Wysong Epigen 90. It is a chicken based food, however it is completely starch free and is suppose to be excellent for dogs who might have a food intolerance. It seems like you have tried mainly fish based foods. If that is not working he might not be able to tolerate fish. You definitely need to try another protein in his diet. If he does not have a chicken allergy I would highly suggest the Wysong Epigen. The food is made by a vet but it is not a prescription, however he does make presciption dehyrated raw food.

They also have a vension forumla that contains “potato protein”. I will also let you know now that one of the ingredients is meat protein isolate. It is nothing to be concerned about and the meat is pork as stated on Dr. Wysong’s website.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 5 months ago by Pitlove.

[Shawna]

It’s taken me almost 45 minutes to get logged in but I was determined. Had to create a new account but then it seems to have reverted back to my old so….?

Center for Companion Animal Health, UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine
Vol. 8, No. 2, Fall 2003
“A number of bacterial organisms commonly associated with diarrhea in dogs and cats include Salmonella, Campylobacter, Clostridium perfringens and Clostridium difficile.

Veterinarians are faced with a quandary when attempting to diagnose dogs and cats with suspected bacterial-associated diarrhea, because these organisms commonly represent a normal part of the host’s intestinal microflora.” http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/ccah/local-assets/pdfs/newsletter_2003_fall.pdf

They’re already in there people. I’m surprised the vets among us aren’t aware of this information?

There are many many vets that recommend a raw, or at least a home prepared, diet. I could name 30 or so off the top of my head that could easily be verified online. But I’ll start with just one – not only is she a vet but she is a veterinary nutritionist and taught veterinary small animal nutrition for over 30 years. Dr. Meg Smart states in an interview on the AngryVet website “I see a benefit in feeding whole foods whether cooked or raw.” http://www.angryvet.com/angryvet-nutrition-interview-drs-joseph-wakshlag-and-meg-smart/ She also discusses and defends raw on her blog.

Dr. Elizabeth Hodkins co-wrote the book “Not Fit for a Dog” with Dr. Smart and one other. Dr. Hodkins used to work for Science Diet. In fact her LinkedIn page says this about her “She taught veterinary parasitology at UC Davis following her residency before leaving academia to join Hills Pet Nutrition for almost a decade.” She taught parasitology and yet she still recommends a raw food diet — INTERESTING… Hmmmm She talks about raw on her website catnutrition.org

• This reply was modified 10 years, 5 months ago by Shawna.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 5 months ago by Shawna.