GSD Diagnosed EPI and SIBO-need highly digestive, low fat, low fiber

Dog Food Advisor Forums Diet and Health GSD Diagnosed EPI and SIBO-need highly digestive, low fat, low fiber

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  • #76512 Report Abuse

    Madelon H
    Member

    i am looking for suggestions for a highly digestible (80-90%), low fat, low fiber food for my 15mo GSD who has EPI and SIBO . Suggestions?

    #76521 Report Abuse

    Susan
    Member

    Hi, the only kibbles I know that are low fat, low fiber, low residue are vet prescription diets, when I was looking for a premium kibble, I was told, I will not find a low fat, low fiber, low residue premium kibble as Premium kibbles pet shop kibbles are made for healthy dogs, not dogs with health problems, so my boy was put on the vet prescription diet “Eukanuba Intestinal” it’s made for S.I.B.O & EPI the fat is 10% & fiber is 1.7%, its a low residue kibble & breaks down very easy, so easier to digest, I would add water to the kibble & it was soft within 5 mins, there’s also “Eukanuba Intestinal Plus” but the fiber is higher at 4%….the other kibble is “Royal Canine Intestinal Low Fat” the Fat is 7% & the Fiber is 1.7% but it is not a low residue kibble you could email Royal Canine & ask..
    http://www.eukanuba.com.au/www.eukanuba.com.au/dog-food/eukanuba-veterinary-diets-intestinal-for-dogs.html
    Iams also has their Intestinal BUT the fiber is 4% & Iams use by-products where the Eukanuba use Dried Chicken & Turkey…. Iams Intestinal is made North America & Eukanuba Intestinal is made Switzerland…

    What I did, I kept Patch on the Eukanuba Intestinal for 9 months, he gained all his weight & when he was stable, I started trying other foods but they didn’t work, so we would go back & forth with the Eukanuba…..
    I don’t like vet diets BUT sometimes they are needed especially when you have a sick dog & like I did, I used the vet diet so he could gain weight & get better…the Eukanuba Intestinal was our last vet diet too try, we had tried all the other vet diets (Hills & Royal Canine) & nothing worked..
    The Eukanuba Intestinal firmed his poos within 2 days of starting the kibble, I couldn’t believe it, finally a firm poo & not much poo, very small poos & only 1-2 poos a day….

    Have you joined the Face Book group called EPI-Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency in Dogs… https://www.facebook.com/groups/38663535025

    #76523 Report Abuse

    Madelon H
    Member

    Susan – thanks. I belong to the EPI4DOGS.COM group – they are awesome! Did/does your dog have EPI? I know they say you don’t have to have a low fat diet for EPI anymore – BUT here’s my thinking based on my personal experience. Doc, my GSD, was diagnosed at 3 months old with SIBO but not EPI (pancreas just had not completely atrophied at that time) – they did the cTLI test then and TLI was 16 B12 was 800+ Folate >24 – he had the chronic diarrhea with pale foul smelling cow patties – so he was on metronidazole and put on the Royal Canin Gastro Low Fat Dry Kibble – after 2 1/2 months all was well and I transitioned him to Royal Canin GSD Puppy – he was great – got to 95lbs until March 2015 when he started losing weight – no diarrhea – finally he had lost about 10lbs and despite my telling my vet something was wrong he said he was fine – then he started diarrhea and eating poop – I demanded another cTLI test – positive for EPI and SIBO – TLI < .4; B12 400; Folate >24. He was put on the can RC Gastro – WAY to expensive – once we started enzymes and B12 with Intrinsic Factor I switched him to TOTW Pacific Stream – poops got better but not consistent – then DESPITE being on flea/tick and heartworm meds his entire life he got tapeworms and coccidia (he had coccidia really bad as a pup) – he’s also been very itchy lately. SO my thinking after doing much research is that although they say you don’t need to restrict fat for an EPI dog I’m thinking you may need to restrict fat for SIBO – thoughts? The RC Gastro dry kibble is 5% fat and 3.6% fiber. I’m not opposed to prescription diet food if nothing else will work but I’m $4000 into this disease already and was hoping to find a comparable OTC food that won’t break my bank. I was looking at Natural Balance Limited Ingredient food that has 10% fat – do you think that it’s worth trying? I was also wondering about mixing canned food and kibble food since it appears most can food has less fat than the kibble?
    Thanks so much!

    #76575 Report Abuse

    Susan
    Member

    Hi, yes they say that EPI dogs can have a high fat diet, what I’m noticing on the F/B EPI group, a lot of dogs are suffering from Acid reflux & need ant acid meds, high fat diets are no good if your dog suffers with acid reflux or if you dog doesn’t suffer with acid reflux they can get acid reflux from eating a high fat diet kibble or wet tin foods..
    I wouldn’t go too low with the fat, I stick around 8%-12% max fat cause of Patch skin problems.. also sardines in spring water are good to add as a topper on their kibble for their skin….
    When your dog was eating Taste Of Wild did he start his scratching & itchiness or when he was on a vet diet did he get his S.B.I.O?
    You need to start limiting certain carbohydrates like, Lactose, Fructose, Resistant Starches like potato, peas, lentils, beans, legumes, banana etc you need a diet where the carbs don’t ferment in the gut & bowel causing the S.I.B.O…
    Patch has had SIBO twice now & both times his skin & paws were yeasty & smelly as well….I keep a dairy but I didn’t write what foods he was eating at the time, so now I’m writing what he is eating so if it happens again I’ll know what kibbles & foods to avoid. I’ve stopped giving a little bit of banana as a treat in the morning..

    The Honest Kitchen Zeal is suppose to be really good, its low in carbs, low in fat, gluten free high protein, but I think its expensive to feed a big dog, I feed 2 different meals wet tin for breakfast, kibble for lunch & dinner & a late small feed of wet tin food that I feed for breakfast..Patch can’t eat 2 large meals a day he gets pain either stomach or pancreas pain, so I divide all the meals into 4 smaller meals..

    With wet tin foods the fat % is different to the fat % in kibbles..it isn’t lower in wet tin foods….. if the wet tin says 5% fat when converted to dry matter (Kibble) 5% fat is around 22% fat, so I feed wet tin foods where the fat is 3% & under so that’s around 7-12% fat when converted to dry matter (kibble).

    This link is for humans with S.I.B.O it explains about foods that ferment & are no good..
    http://digestivehealthinstitute.org/2012/08/17/sibo-diet-and-digestive-health/

    I have found kibbles with just rice seem to be better then the grain free high starch kibbles… Here’s California Natural Lamb & Rice limited ingredients it has just 4 ingredients & the crude fiber is 2.5% or there’s their Chicken & Rice with 5 ingredients & the fiber % is the same as the Lamb & Rice, a few people I know have dogs with IBD & feed their dogs on the California Natural limited ingredient chicken or lamb kibble….
    you will need to email California natural & find out what the soluble & insoluble fiber % is in the Lamb & rice or chicken & rice…
    http://www.californianaturalpet.com/products/1181

    #76578 Report Abuse

    Madelon H
    Member

    Susan – thank you soooooo much! This is all so overwhelming and confusing. I don’t mind the EPI but I’m sick of the darn SIBO! SO – when Doc was on RC GSD Puppy his ears always had black gunk in them but it didn’t seem to bother him so I left them alone – I didn’t write down when it all started BUT I know he wasn’t itchy in the gastro – I really noticed the itchy when on TOTW Pacific Stream – his ears were so bad he woke me up scratching and they were bleeding – so I started cleaning them at first with malicidic acid from the vet and then I switched to vinegar and water solution – I also noticed him licking the bottom of paws – thought it was an allergy so I switched him to TOTW Sierra Mountain (lamb only) – his ears have remained good no paw licking but now he’s itchy all over his body – problem is he’s had tapeworms for a while so I don’t if it’s the worms (haven’t found much about them causing itching), if it’s shedding his old coat (I’ve heard this can happen as he’s now absorbing nutrients), if it’s an allergy or if it’s from increasing enzymes – uggggghhhhhh. Doc is on his SECOND round of Droncit for the tapeworms the first two doses didn’t get rid of them all – he gets his last dose for this round Friday – I’m calling the vet today because I’m concerned about how entrenched these things are – I haven’t been able to find anything about having to be on Droncit so long. Thanks for the info on the foods to stay away from. I did more researching yesterday and am wondering if I need to be giving supplements to help his gut – do you give supplements? What food are you feeding Patch? I was staying away from rice because of the whole grain thing but then read yesterday white rice is easily digestible. You mentioned the soluble/insoluble fiber percent – what should that percentage be? OMG I cannot thank you enough for your help.

    #76614 Report Abuse

    Susan
    Member

    Hi, after Patch finished his triple therapy antibiotics Metronidazole, Amoxicillin & Zantac last December for his Helicobacter-Pylori 2-3 days after stopping his meds, I saw a tape worm on his black bum, I looked & thought is that a tape worm then the next afternoon the same another tapeworm, they look like rice but cause it was Christmas eve the vet was closed that sells his Milbemax all wormer, Patch can’t take any other all-wormers they make him ill, vomiting & pooing blood, I rung the 24 hr vets & they didn’t have the Milbemax they had another all-wormer, so I had to wait till the holidays were over to worm him…I told his vet at the time & he said, yes he often see’s tapeworms in dogs after they have been on antibiotics but he didn’t say why, he just said tapeworms won’t hurt him, I’d prefer no worms…. so the next time he had too take the Metronidazole again, I wormed him first then started the Metronidazole the next day & when he was finished taking the Metronidazole, I kept looking at his bum after he’d poo to see if I could see any more tape worms & I couldn’t….the thing is Patch doesn’t have fleas, the fleas don’t stay on him & jump back off him, the cat did have fleas at the time & Patch doesn’t kill wild prey mice, rats, rabbits, etc…

    There’s several species of Tapeworms Dipylidium Caninum from fleas & Teania & Echinococcus species from mice, rats, rabbits, squirrels, deer & sheep…you have to wash all bedding everything he sleeps on.. Does Doc eat wild prey?

    I was giving Patch probiotics Protexin Soluble but it was expensive $60 for 1 month, so I found another dog probiotic Vetafarm at the pet shop with the same ingredients for $20 but I don’t think the Vetafarm was as good as the Protexin & I stopped giving probiotics to him then about 3 months ago I saw a Animal Naturopath cause I wanted to put Patch on a raw diet & she sent out human live probiotic capsules that were dairy & gluten free, I had to open the capsule & put only half a capsule on the raw meal, Patches itchy smelly skin & red paws all went away within 3 days of being on the raw diet, the only problem he was regurgitating the raw, water was coming up into his mouth about 3 hours after eating the raw & he hadn’t drank any water after breakfast & he was swallowing & swallowing it, this water came out of his mouth one day while we were shopping & went all down my shopping bag, that’s when I seen it was water & a few little bits of blended veggies thru the water, I think the enzymes were breaking down the raw meat too quickly, so I had to stop the raw cause he was getting acid reflux & a sore throat but I was shattered & so was Patch, he loved his raw Kangaroo, so I started to cook extra lean beef mince & the same, he was regurgitating the cooked meal as well….. the thing is he doesn’t regurgitate wet tin food if its chunky or soaked kibble put thru a blender, so I started looking for wet tin foods but I couldn’t find a low fat, low fiber wet tin food in the Pet Shops, Wellness has their Core grain free reduced fat but the fiber is 3%, so that will be too high when converted to dry matter, so I tried the Hills & Royal Canine low fat vet diets but they all have boiled rice & boiled rice goes thru Patch (diarrhea) the corn or something in the vet wet diets was making him itch & smell again, so about 2 weeks ago I went to the Supermarket & I started to read all the ingredients, fat & fiber in all the wet tin foods & I bought a 700g tin of Purina Supercoat Homestyle casserole Lamb Veggies & Pasta, the Purina seemed to have the best ingredients fish oil, vitamins & minerals, the fat was 4%, fiber-1%max, I also bought another brand that was duck the smaller foiled wet tin food, it had only 2% fat, we tried the duck first at night his last feed he loved it but poo wasn’t as good as they are now on the Lamb Casserole…. I would need 10-12 small foil tins of the duck a day & it works out too expensive to feed…
    I also started him on the Royal Canine Intestinal low fat kibble about 2 weeks before, cause when I went to buy his regular Hypoallergenic, gluten, dairy, sugar & potato free kibble “Salmon & Sardines with brown rice & green veggies” it had a Gold sticker saying “New Improved Omega 3,6, & 9 formula” so I looked & all the ingredients were still the same, so I bought the bag of kibble but the new kibbles were smaller & black & felt real greasy, even when I soaked the kibble in water, I could feel the greasiness & Patch was getting his real bad acid reflux again, so I stopped the Meals For Mutts kibble & I gave the R/C low fat Kibble ago… but he has spewed up the R/C Low Fat kibble a few times that’s then I thought I’ll give the wet tin food a go again, I’m feeding the Purina Lamb Casserole for breakfast, for lunch & dinner the R/C low fat kibble & the Purina Lamb Casserole for his last small dinner & he doing the best poos ever.. so today I’m going to just try feeding the Purina Casserole all day & see how he goes & see if he start to get his yeasty smell again, I take out the beans & wholemeal pasta & throw it away & I’ve been adding a little bit of boiled sweet potatos & some boiled chicken, I have a freezer full of cooked foods for him that he regurgitates when feed by themselves, so I’m going to add them with the Lamb casserole tin food & see how he goes… I really think the kibble is causing all his problems with Helicobacter, S.I.B.O, acid reflux & nausea..

    With soluble & insoluble fibers you need to work out how Doc goes, if you have ever tried the Hills Z/d kibble, Hills I/d Gastro or the Hills W/d all these kibbles have more insoluble fiber, the Hills Z/d was making Patch do 1 big cow paddy poo in the morning, his poo was just slop & he started to smell real bad with yeast on the Hills Z/d kibble probably the Corn Starch, so Patch doesn’t do well on insoluble fiber, he does better poos on soluble fiber but soluble fiber sits in the stomach longer, where insoluble fiber passes the stomach into the small bowel, so I don’t know is that a good thing for S.I.B.O probably not…

    If you can try & get Doc on wet food or raw is the best, a lean protein, like Rabbit, Chicken, Turkey, Kangaroo these are all low in fat… I never added any bone in the begining, the Naturopath said no bone or organ meat yet cause of his IBD… maybe give him his kibble for dinner & try the wet tin or raw for breakfast but I never mixed the 2 together Raw & kibble or wet tin & kibble…. I thought it will just sit in his stomach & something will happen, it always does with him lol… another thing try 1 new thing at a time so if anything happens you will know what is causing what..

    #77121 Report Abuse

    Madelon H
    Member

    Hey Susan – well I have been on a roller coaster ride with Doc for sure!! After all of your information and my own researching I reached out to Nature’s Logic – I really liked that the founder of the company immediately emailed me himself and without me going into detail about EPI and SIBO he said Doc needed a diet low carb/low natural sugar diet which their food is. The bags say 5% fiber but Dog Food Advisor put it at 4% and the company says it’s between 3-5% but the bag has to have the “max”. So I tried the chicken – he did okay, then i tried sardine (noticed a lot of acid reflux) and we are trying the rabbit now. My vet said to give a food 2 full weeks before deciding if it works or not – I haven’t been doing that 🙁 During this time I was finally able to take a poop sample in with the “worm” – the other vet at the practice who i like much better said she finally saw it and it’s DEFINITELY not tapeworm – which is great but unfortunately Doc had been given 4 doses of Droncit and I believe he’s allergic to Droncit – immediately after getting it his ears flare up and he becomes really itchy and vomits bile. SO of course I feel horrible – she said it looks like fly larvae – we are stumped about him passing live fly larvae – we sent it out for testing and are awaiting the results. What i’ve read online I believe it’s called pseudomyiasis – I think he’s getting it from eating rabbit poop or grass where flies have deposited their eggs and the eggs have hatched and Doc eats it – he LOVES rabbit poop. Anyway, I realized he was passing live larvae I took him in for a full rectal exam and through once over – I asked her to check his ear (I had been asking the other vet but he never did) – came back positive 4 out of 4 for yeast, bacteria and rod in the left ear and 1 out of 4 for yeast in the right ear and he has a yeast infection between his toes. We are not sure if this is from the Droncit or the Tylan that he’s been on or if he could be allergic to yeast altogether. After his first bout of SIBO as a puppy he was put on Royal Canin LF Gastro kibble and did fine then switched to Royal Canin Large Breed Puppy Developmental (rx) then switched to Royal Canin GSD Puppy – he did GREAT. SO, I’m thinking the yeast infections he currently has is from the Droncit. We’ve given him a bath with medicated shampoo for his yeasty paws but he is still itchy on his body – his ears are doing much better and his paws but still itchy on the body – not sure if that’s food related or environmental. SO I decided to go back to what worked last time and I bought the RC Gastro kibble and am going to mix that with the rabbit food and get him completely on the RC Gastro and wean off the Tylan (he’s been on it for 60 days). Then I’m going to keep him on the RC Gastro for with a probiotic (doesn’t appear there is any in the kibble) for a month or two and let his insides settle down then I’m thinking about trying the RC GSD Adult (when I read the description it talks about low fermentable foods, etc – it actually sounds like a good food – fiber is a bit high but if it works it works) – I’ve spent hundreds in dog foods that I have sitting half eaten or unopen altogether at this point and am tired of dealing with it and feeling badly for poor Doc.

    #77140 Report Abuse

    Susan
    Member

    Hi you sound like me, my cupboard is full of open bags of kibble, I added up how much they cost $ the other day $350 worth, I wish I could cash them all in lol most were bought online & they will not refund $ on open bags of kibble even the vet diet kibbles 🙁

    I don’t think the Droncit would be causing the yeasty ears, I can see the Droncit giving him acid reflux & vomiting… the yeasty ears would be from his diet & underactive immune system.. down the bottom is Dr Karen Beckers link on Yeast & foods & what causes yeast in dogs, you have probably read it before but read it again especially the last paragraph on reoccurring yeast problems in dogs, their immune system is not operating 100%..
    is Doc having cobalamin B-12 injections to help reestablish the friendly bacteria colonies for his S.I.B.O…& maybe keep him on the Tylan a bit longer while introducing the Royal Canine then reduce the Tylan… are you given the Tylan just once a day? they did a study on Tylan & found giving Tylan once day worked the same as giving a dog tylan twice a day also a low dose of Tylan works just as well as the higher dose of Tylan.. I suppose it really depends on the dog, the Tylan keeps the bad bacteria a bay…. my vet wants Patch on the Metronidazole for 6 months but Patch gets bad side effects from the Metronidazole…..

    With the rabbit poo can you go outside with Doc & watch that he doesn’t eat any poo & teach him the word “Leave It” so he stops eating any poo or food that has falling on kitchen floor etc…. Patch was eating all the neighbours cat poo, when I was letting him downstairs for a wee, I told the vet & he went & got the Animal Behaviourist & she taught me “Leave It” its pretty easy, you get a kibble or treat & put under the front of your foot, your toe so the dog can see & smell the kibble or treat, you say “No Leave it” then when they leave it you give a treat or kibble but not what is under your toe/foot then when you fell confident enough, you just leave a kibble on the floor & let the Doc see it & as soon as it looks like Doc will go to eat it, you say “NOOO Leave It” then say sit, then only if he left the the food on the floor, you reward him with one of his kibble or treat, in time he wont bother with anything on the floor & any poo…even when outside you say “No leave it” when he goes to eat the rabbit poo… you could even put some rabbit poo under the front of your shoe to teach him “Leave It” I use to watch Patches nose like a hawk but I don’t have to anymore, when he see something on the ground on our walks, he looks up at me to see if I’m watching & I am & I just say “Leave it” he just keeps walking & I say good boy, your a really good boy Patch & I can see he feels proud of himself, then I say, when we get home, I’ll give you a biscuit for being a good boy…as soon as we walk thru the front door he goes into the kitchen & sits & waits for his biscuit, he doesn’t forget that I promised him a biscuit lol….. they’re a lot of hard work & depressing some days but I look at Patch & think, I couldn’t live without him, I learnt so much due to all his illnesses… 🙂
    http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/05/03/eating-these-foods-can-make-your-dog-itch-like-crazy.aspx

    #77142 Report Abuse

    Madelon H
    Member

    Susan – thanks once again for the helpful information. I have read that article and several others – lol!! When I looked back at my EPI log I had noted each time he was given the Droncit (always with his supper) he would wake in the middle of the night shaking his head horribly and scratching his ears and they would be red and gooey – then he’d vomit bile – it would be over in about 24 hours – which according to the vet is how long the Droncit stays in their system. He never had a problem until the Droncit but then again he was given Droncit after his EPI diagnosis and at the same time switching foods. Interesting about Tylan having the same effectiveness no matter the dose. I just want to start all over – like I said get him off of everything and then do one thing at a time. The worms came back as two types of fly larvae – a plant based fly and botfly- the vet wasn’t able to talk to the Parasitology department as they were closed but said from talking to them before she thinks they are passing through him alive because of his compromised system whereas in a healthy dog they would likely die before being passed. I have a fenced in yard – plenty of room to run but I can see everything and since he was diagnosed and I began looking at every poop he now won’t go outside unless your with him – hoping he gets over that before winter – I hate cold weather!! As for the “leave it”. I have used that command for many years with my dogs – doc knows it but doesn’t always follow it – lol!! He’s so smart – he knows when I’m gloved up with bag and shovel after he’s pooped that I’m scooping and he will then find me piles of bunny poop – its hard to find bunny poop but I’m getting pretty good at it – scooped five piles this am :). So as far as diet with the yeast – before EPI he was on RC GSD puppy – hydrolysed yeast and rice – ingredients appear to be on the low carb/low sugar side of things – the TOTW I put him on after diagnosis was definitely not – potatoes, sweet potatoes. What I was recently trying to switch him to Natures Logic is very low carb low natural sugar – it had millet and some dried fruits and veggies but all appeared to be on the low sugar side and at that time was when we got the infection diagnosis. SO I’m not sending the bags back (two aren’t opened) because I want to use the rx food for a few months get some normal poop going again let his system get over everything and rebalance itself and then see where we are at. I didn’t do the shots of B12 – the vet didn’t believe in it – his B12 was at 406 so I ordered the Trinfac-b from wonderlab – he gets 3 capsules a day. I haven’t re-tested the levels yet as we are going to have the entire EPI panel run again because the breeder doesn’t believe he’s EPI because at 3mos when he was tested it was normal – I’m writing a 6 page letter to send when we have him re-tested because I want her to inform the other litter mates that there’s a possibility of this happening to them at some point and not to mate the two dogs again – they were mated earlier this year prior to me notifying her. I tried to join the Facebook page yesterday it kept saying pending – I’ll have to check again to see if I was accepted. I would like to get him neutered this winter – have you heard of any problems with that after being diagnosed EPI?

    #77335 Report Abuse

    Patty T
    Member

    5 yr old Pug experiencing bloody stool with mucous and gas issues. Took to vet 3 times and is on Flagyl and epcid but not seen much improvement in a week. Severe diarrhea
    as well. Fed her caned food from vet for digestive issues and not much use. Any ideas. Dog food previous on was Blue Buffalo.

    #77337 Report Abuse

    Susan
    Member

    Hi, could be IBD (Colitis) she may have a food intolerance/sensitivity, my boy was pooing blood & mucus, mucus & blood is from something irritating the bowel (Colitis). My boy cant eat boiled rice or boiled oats in cooked meals or wet tin foods, boiled rice & oats irritate his bowel causing blood, mucus poos…he also cant have any gluten & most vet diet have gluten, corn & boiled rice, so he cant eat most vet diets plus vet diets use chicken or hydrolyzed chicken….so if your dog has a sensitivity to chicken then vet diets won’t help…..

    Have you tried to feed a cooked limited ingredient meals, just 1 protein & 1 carb, a protein she hasn’t eaten before, a protein low in fat is best & try adding some boiled potatoes, or sweet potatoes if you want more fiber… My boy does real well on beef, pork, lamb or fish, I have found….Elimination diets are best to feed when this is happening, then when she is stable (firm poos) then only add 1 new ingredient each week…… in the beginning less is best cause you will not know what is causing the diarrhea, if she is eating too many things or too many supplements are given… & keep a diary…I’ve been cooking this morning, to lightly boil some meat & boil some sweet potatoes doesn’t take long, I make 1/2 cup size meals. I put thru the blender it helps with digestion if you dogs gulps food, then I freeze small meals..
    You may need a new vet, a vet that knows more about IBD…..

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