[Patricia A]

Let’s say you made an appointment with your vet strictly for a consultation on diet for your dog. Then ask that first off I would like you to tell me what are the necessary vitamins/minerals and percentage that needs to be in the food to keep my dog healthy. Also if I had a large breed puppy how would those percentages change if at all. How many more calories does he need when feeding then a small breed puppy? What should I look for as the first through 5th ingredient on the dog food label that should point me to the best food? What should I be on the alert for that should NOT be on their ingredient label that would suggest a low quality food? You know what the vet would say to these questions? You think any vet not trained strictly in animal nutrition would know these answers. I think not.
Take it a step further and bring in a dog food he suggests such as royal Canon, science diet etc and cut out the name and show him only the ingredient label.Also take in let’s say freeze dried also and some other brands with only the label.

So Royal Canin adult dog foods first few ingredients are:
Brewers rice, chicken by-product meal, oat groats, wheat, corn gluten meal, chicken fat, natural flavors, dried plain beet pulp, fish oil, calcium carbonate, vegetable oil, potassium chloride, salt, etc.

And here’s Science Diet recipe (website states vet recommended)
Chicken, whole grain wheat, cracked pearled barley, whole grain sorghum, whole grain corn, corn gluten meal, chicken meal, pork fat, chicken liver flavor, dried beet pulp, soybean oil,

Now I’m not trying to plug a dog food. I get my starting point from Dr. Mike and go from there. But let’s take Bixbi Rawbble whose first ingredients are this: Salmon, whitefish, chicken and ground bone, pumpkin etc.

Grain inclusive Stellas ingrediens: Chicken, chicken meal pearled barley,oatmeal, chicken fat, brown rice etc.

Primal ingredients: Turkey, turkey necks, whole sardines, turkey hearts or turkey gizzards, turkey livers, organic collard greens, organic squash, organic cranberries, organic blueberries, organic pumpkin seeds, clery, sunflower seeds etc.

So does anyone think he would know which one was Royal Canin just by looking at the label. Would he pick Royal Canin or Science Diet as being what he feels the highest quality after seeing the first few ingredients of the others? Unless I’m WAY off on what I understand to be ingredients to look for on a dog food label for the best nutrition for my dogs, then I would HOPE his pick would be the others over Royal Canin and Science diet which vets push in their practice.
What I’m attempting to put across here is that the MAJORITY of vets who sell Prescription diets as in Science Diet, Royal Canin etc at their practices and suggest that food have no idea what is even in the ingredients and wouldn’t recognize which brand are those and which are others by just looking at the ingredients. They have salesmen from these companies and correct me if I’m wrong please and get kickback each time a bag is sold.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

Alice. I use kibble as a base also and top it with Stella’s freeze dried or Primal. I have Chihuahuas and they never had hard poops using these freeze dried brands. Maybe you can try these for your Poms and see if these agree with them . However, it seems there is a plus to harder stools as article below:

Clean anal sacs – Diets that have natural sources of bone make the poops firmer which requires your pet to strain a bit harder to defecate. This is normal and even beneficial, as the harder stools help the dog express its anal glands, keeping it clean and reducing the likelihood of infection. If you notice your pet straining for too long, or they appear constipated, you may have to rethink the ratios of your raw ingredients. Furchild takes out all the guesswork because we have done the necessary research and all of our Meals for Dogs and Cats have been formulated by raw pet food experts.
Less Gas

• This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by Patricia A.

[Gretchen B]

It does seem like you have given it some time for his skin to heal, but I know that once they get an allergic reaction and it affects their skin, depending on how bad it got, it can take time to heal. With that being said, if it doesn’t heal you may have to put him on apoquel, which you will have to get from the vet. That helps tremendously with skin conditions and allergies. Maybe try sprinkling something on his food. Like, some freeze-dried raw food (primal, Stella & Chewy) or Etta Says Liver Sprinkles, this will entice him to eat his food. The liver sprinkles are a miracle. I would still have his thyroid checked and his blood sugar level for the excessive drinking. I hope I was a little bit of help. Update when he gets back to his old self. Best of luck.

[Patricia A]

Joanne true about affordability is a big reason for feeding kibble especially to larger dogs. But I can see no reason why kibble can’t be supplemented with some whole meat food.I’ve posted this so many times I’m sick of myself writing it. How hard or costly is it to buy a little extra chicken breasts or lean beef etc. and add at times to a little less kibble? I have small dogs so the freeze dried such as Primal isn’t breaking the bank but I can understand it would be very costly for larger dogs. The raw is less costly though and doesn’t contain peas, potatoes etc.
People looking for a healthy diet for their dog will never find it in any kibble. It’s like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

[Patricia A]

Robert since kibble is a VERY small portion of my dogs’ diet I can’t make a suggestion if you feed this exccluviley. I only use as a base and I always rotate with at least two manufactors/brands as well as different proteins/flavors. No problems with digestion since I do it VERY slowly. When I’m about 1/4 done with one bag I start introducing a few kibbles of the new one. I use toppers always. Be it boiled chicken, lean steak if they’re lucky that day lol, string beans, boiled fish if we have such as salmon . Didn’t catch any keepers on the party boat or they would have enjoyed some fresh Fluke. Watermelon is their favorite. Don’t be afraid of giving real food as a topper for kibble also. A little at a time to see how well he does.
Most of the time they get a topper of Primal. I stick to the 5* lower in fat.NO legumes or potatoes in Primal. https://primalpetfoods.com/collections/canine-raw-freeze-dried-formulas. Some dogs are prone to pancreatitis with the higher fat proteins. I use turkey/Sardine, Duck, rabbit at times in the freeze dried. Just break up and moisten with warm water and add the dry kibble on the side. Again I started with a little piece and GRADUALLY added each to my rotation. I use Stella Chewy’s https://www.stellaandchewys.com in rotation freeze dried again in turkey, chicken and venison blend. All 5* by the advisor. NO LEGUMES or potatoes in their freeze dried. They have a very popular f/b page and pets are doing very well with these freeze dried toppers.I feel good about giving variety and my Chihuahuas’ are healthy on exams. Hope this helps .

• This reply was modified 6 years, 5 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 5 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

I know exactly how your feeling Stephanie. I was going nuts too between the recalls and now this DCM AND the thousands of brands and then reviews. Whether to give canned etc. Just going nuts with it all. I have three Chihuahuas’. One will be 17 in June. She has Mitral Valve disease . She still has quality of life. However she inspects her food for a few minutes in case I snuck in one of her heart pills. So at this point she gets all home cooked and I’ve found trick with her pills. Morning is wrapped in little piece of bread with a tiny bit of melted cheese . It works for NOW at least. Then comes boiled chicken, sweet potatoes mushed into a little canned fromm pate. At this point I am so glad she’s eating again and not trying all night with all kinds of foods, cans etc.
Then I have my other two. One eats everything, anything. My other is a little picky. I can just HOPE I’m doing the best for them. I have been giving a little Stella chewys kibble along with a little Stella’s freeze dried or freeze dried primal as topper. I just add a little warm water so it’s much easier then cans. Not that costly since they are small dogs. I like to mix the protein AND the brand so it’s variety and also I feel safer if one brand lacks “something”. If we have chicken I just boil a little for them and skip the freeze dried and just add the kibble. Same with steak, fish etc. For treats I give Bixbi Rawwble. They are just tiny, round freeze dried. I throw them a few at night. So far so good with health and stomach. Fingers crossed. I’m finally relaxed and not always searching for something better.

[Patricia A]

So very sorry about your dogs passing. My Chloe also died from pneumonia . . She had no symptoms until I noticed at her walk that day.she would keep stopping with labored breathing. Took her to our long time vet same day. Unfortunately, when diagnosed with x-rays we trusted him when he assured us to just give antibiotics and take her into a steamy shower tap to loosen congestion on her chest and she’ll be fine He wasn’t concerned .Early the next morning we rushed her back to vets office when her breathing got worse .. We were told race to the large animal emergency hospital 15 minutes away. She died in my arms as we pulled into parking lot. We still feel such guilt . She was struggling to breath that night but since I got two antibiotics into her we thought because of assurance from vet, that breathing would improve and she’ll be fine. She was 13 and we and vet should have been more concerned at that age . I mean how could a vet see a dog the day before her death and not know she was very ill. This was many years ago but tears are still coming from my eyes thinking about this. Vet and head vet from office called to apologize . I think they thought we would sue. Mistakes are made so must forgive him and ourselves.
Regarding the enlarged heart. Many small breeds have genetic chronic mitral valve disease (CMVD) . That is what my soon to be 17 year old Chihuahua has. So if your vet didn’t clarify after ultrasound is DCM then especially if she was a small breed the enlarged heart could be from mitral valve disease. This type never has anything to do with diet.
I feed Stella’s also. Their kibble has a lot of peas/legumes. They assure me that their small breed chicken has high protein coming from meat vs legumes. However, kibble is a tiny part of their diet. Mostly mine eat Stella’s freeze dried chicken and turkey flavor/protein. I rotate to be safe with Primal turkey/sardine and duck. I also feed Bixbi rawwble in beef and chicken and salmon. I started VERY slowly with each protein/brand and now I just mix it up every few months. They also get our cooked food when appropriate. Hope this helps.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by Patricia A.

[haleycookie]

Dogs can have small amounts of blood in their poop from a variety of things. This sounds like it’s probably a sensitivity to chicken or a switch in the diet. Dogs with sensitive systems can have these symptoms too.
If you’re still wanting to go the raw route perhaps try to slowly mix a premade raw food (nature’s variety, primal, Stella and chewy) and see how that goes. Transition the same way you would with a new kibble. Over the course of several weeks.
There may also be an under lying problem. The answers was a cooked plain broth so I’m not sure why that would cause any upset. I would go to the vet and mention it to them. I would first mention the answers and see what they say. Then perhaps mention the raw chicken later. Traditional vets will immediately jump the gun and blame it on raw as they are trained to support large kibble companies only and that may bring them to a wrong conclusion when something else may actually be going on.

[Patricia A]

Carol C I looked on their website and all ingredients are listed with mineral/vitamins added to their raw complete/balanced. So you can see for yourself what is missing in the grinds to make it supplement only. This is their turkey/sardine raw complete formula for an example:
NUTRITIONAL FACTS

Calories: 42 per oz.
Carbohydrates: 1.9%
VITAMINS

Vitamin A 9768 (IU/kg)
Thiamin: B1 0.88 (mg/kg)
Riboflavin: B2 2.64 (mg/kg)
Niacin: B3 17.70 (mg/kg)
Pyridoxine: B6 3.16 (mg/kg)

Vitamin B12 0.05 (mg/kg)
Vitamin C 27.05 (mg/kg)
Vitamin D 553.10 (IU/kg)
Vitamin E 136.09 (IU/kg)
Folate 0.26 (mg/kg)
Pantothenic Acid 7.06 (mg/kg)
MINERALS

Calcium 0.48 (%)
Copper 2.00 (ppm)
Iodine 0.18 (ppm)
Iron 45.00 (ppm)
Magnesium 0.05 (%)

Manganese 4.00 (ppm)
Phosphorus 0.31 (%)
Potassium 0.27 (%)
Selenium 0.21 (ppm)
Sodium 0.12 (%)
Zinc 36.00 (ppm)
AMINO ACIDS

Arginine 1.23 (%)
Cystine 0.20 (%)
Histidine 0.54 (%)
Isoleucine 0.91 (%)
Leucine 1.44 (%)
Lysine 1.64 (%)

Methionine 0.51 (%)
Phenylalanine 0.73 (%)
Threonine 0.79 (%)
Tryptophan 0.21 (%)
Tyrosine 0.68 (%)
Valine 0.96 (%)
Taurine 0.11% (%)
FATTY ACIDS

Omega 3 1.16 (g/lb)

Omega 6 2.75 (g/lb)
Primal Pet Foods Raw Frozen Canine Turkey & Sardine Formula provides complete an

[Carol C]

The reviews say “Primal Raw Frozen Grind is a supplement. And because they probably lack some essential nutrients, supplements must not be fed continuously as the sole item in a dog’s diet.”

What are the essential nutrients that are missing?

[Patricia A]

Exactly Haleycookies. Wash your hands well just like everyone should do with after handling any raw food. However, Primal, steals and I believe Bixbi uses the HPP process. Primal just on some of their proteins. Many argue that’s it’s not in the truth raw state but love their ingredients and so much healthy then kibble and canned.

HPP is a non-thermal pasteurization process commonly utilized in the food industry.
The practice removes disease-causing bacteria with only minimal effect on the nutritional qualities, taste, sight or smell of the food.

[haleycookie]

https://www.grandmalucys.com/blogs/pupclectic/freeze-dried-vs-dehydrated-dog-food-whats-the-difference
This is a good explanation of both freeze drying and dehydrating.
It is raw and as with any raw meat you have to handle it properly. Wear gloves, use good cleaners and hot water on anything the raw food touches. Unfortuently most people do not do this. This is what causes a lot of recalls on raw foods, mishandling.
Freeze dried foods are probably the most expensive of the Raws. I’ve fed nature’s variety to my cats before and they loved it. They had less poop and less shedding. A mixture of the freeze dried mixed with kibble and the frozen raw.
Nature’s variety, primal, Stella and chewy, are all good trusted raw brands to try out. You have a small dogs so it should be cheaper to feed than having large dogs tho. It’s defiently less processed than regular kibble and in my opinion more healthy. It has been in most cases I’ve seen. However every dog is different so it’s wise to slowly transition. You can also rehydrate freeze dried foods or feed them dry.

[Patricia A]

I have been feeding my two Chihuahuas freeze dried for about two years now. Actually I was giving Origen Freeze dried treats for years but didn’t even realize it was freeze dried. Just knew it was a different texture that they really loved. I now have put in rotation Stella Chewy’s chicken meal mixers, turkey patties and venison blend. When I started I was using Fromm kibble as a base. Then I switched to Stella’s raw coated kibble small breed. I’m concerned about the Dcm with the legumes so stopped all kibble now until sorted out. Many questions on Stella’s f/b page regarding their kibble but their statements also say their kibble is not implicated in any DCM cases. Anyway I started out slowly . One protein at a time in tiny amounts. Just add warm water. Amount to feed for weight is on bag. Adjust according to weight gain or lose. I also slowly put in rotation Primal freeze dried. I use Turkey/sardine, rabbit and their duck. No stomach issues if done slowly. Bixbi Rawbbles is a great freeze dried also. I use this as treats or just throw some in with the pucks or patties . My dogs are doing great on this and I feel much better feeding the freeze dried instead of kibble or canned. Much easier to feed also.
Primal food does Hpp process to kill bacteria but not with all flavors/proteins. It’s on their webpage which protein/flavors they use it with. I believe Stella’s uses hPP process on all their food as well as Bixbi.
HOW HPP WORKS

Essentially, this technology “puts the squeeze” on food pathogens without cooking out vital nutrients or changing the fresh characteristics of food. During High-Pressure Processing, pressure is uniformly applied around and throughout the food product. High-Pressure Processing can be conducted at refrigerated or even frozen temperatures, which means the temperature starts low and stays low — High-Pressure Processing does not cause the heat degradation that happens during cooking.
Freeze Dried The process requires food to be placed inside a vacuum chamber that lowers the temperature until it is below freezing and then moisture is drawn out by slowly raising the temperature. The water originally found in the food moves to a gaseous state from a solid to void the food of most moisture.

Moisture Content:

Dehydration removes approximately 90-95 percent of moisture, while freeze-drying removes about 98-99 percent.[3]

Rehydration:

Freeze-dried pet food will rehydrate within 2-3 minutes while dehydrated pet food can often take 5-10 minutes or need to be left soaking for a few hours depending on the size of the food chunks.

Texture, Flavor, and Aroma:

When food is freeze-dried, the process is gentle and the enzymes are locked in without disrupting the texture, taste, or smell of the ingredient. This particular process greatly reduces the weight of the product and makes it convenient for storing and travel.

The look and feel of a freeze-dried product to a dehydrated is noticeable to the naked eye. Dehydrated foods tend to be a little darker, denser, and can sometimes appear leathery. In order to create a faster rehydration time for dehydrated food, they are often powdered or made granular, whereas freeze-dried foods can be kept in chunkier states.

Another key difference is that dehydration can break down vital vitamins and minerals due to the processes being a little more invasive.[2] The freeze-drying process will keep all the valuable nutrients intact ready to be rehydrated when needed.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 8 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 8 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

Thank you Vikki for posting this. My other two eat freeze dried Primal Stella’s and Bixbi but Hannah never would eat those. Out of canned, I’ve tried her on several brands and flavors, she’ll only eat wellness supplemental. Her diet now is boiled chicken dark meat, roast beef cut from roast at deli, steak, london broil, salmon, string beans, carrots , watermelon . She will eat a few Bixbi rawbble freeze dried which i’m really grateful for. Their small crunchy and she’s getting proper nutrition from them. When I thought the coughing was just from the collapsed trachea I would sneak her some french fries just for her. Something I never did when she was younger. Now I realize she would cough more after doing that. Didn’t know about her enlarged heart then with the salt being worse thing for her.
So good to hear your Frasier is doing so well on the meds. Helped me make up my mind to take her Monday for the sono and get her meds.
[email protected]..Really appreciate information Vikki Thank’s

[Teagsmom]

My chi mix just had her annual exam. She’s a senior so I have a complete CBD panel done along with some other tests. Everything came back fine except her ALT count (liver enzyme) was sky rocket! Normal is 21-121 and hers was 501. Naturally I freaked out because she has zero signs of anything being wrong. She had a bile acid test, ULtrasound and the vet tested for Lepto just to rule out everything. Ultrasound came back clear (thank goodness) but vet said bile acid test showed a tad of inflammation. She said this could be due to a food allergy. I had been feeding her Primal raw at night and Instinct Raw Boost with Stella and Chewy meal mixers in the morning. The Stella and Chewy meal mixers are her FAVORITE even though I prefer Primal.

My vet suggested that I start feeding ONLY duck to rule out a food allergy. I didn’t realize how many companies add turkey and/or chicken with Duck. Primal was easy because they make freeze dried duck. I purchased Zignature Duck and ordered Natures Instinct LID Duck. I also got some goat milk and can food to add more moisture. I purchased Rawz Duck and Rawbble Duck can wet food. Both are comparable. This is where my questions come in……has anyone experienced this before and the result was a food allergy? What food do people prefer (Zignature vs Instinct and RAWZ vs Rawbble wet)?

My neighbors had the same thing happen with their small dog. They switched from ZiwiPeak to a low protein kibble and the ALT went down from the high 500’s to normal range. MY vet said high protein food would not cause the liver enzymes to go up or down. If this is true, I’m not sure how to explain my neighbors situation. Since adding more kibble vs solely raw at night, my dog poops at min 3x a day. When on raw, it was 1-2x times a day and much smaller. I will have more info once we test her levels again in a few weeks but am curious if anyone has experienced this and/or has any recommendations. Btw my dogs behavior hasn’t changed. If it’s a food allergy I will be surprised bc her stools have always and continue to be firm. She’s never had Diarrhea- knock on wood. Thanking you in advance.

[Stacia W]

I have a yorkie.. She had Gastro issues the doctor at that time put her on prednisone after doing research I believe that it does way more harm than good I know that people will probably disagree with me however this is just my opinion and my experience as I have worked extremely hard to keep my dog on track and for the most part it’s worked pretty well except she does have flareups from time to time.
You really have to be proactive for the first so many years I let my doctors keep her on antibiotics and she started to build up an immune to them. They also had her on prescription food which I am not a fan of … Shaking horribly from the pain so finally I decided to do my own thing my research and by lots of trial and error we found what works..your dogs levels have to be tested on a regular basis it can be expensive at least once a year ,if they have flareups it’s really important to know how high their levels are . You need to check on the kidneys as well as the liver as well as pancreas and basically what it comes down to is the diet has to be at a high protein low fat diet. Daisy has been on primal’s raw rabbit And freeze dried when I’m traveling she eats steamed (which you can buy in the bag from like target for $.99 )broccoli cauliflower and carrots she gets baked sweet potatoes in sections (obviously not the whole thing) and rice she Has to stay on a strict diet.
She does have occasional flareups and I will do a round of antibiotics with metronidazole or Flagyl two weeks at a time but it’s not easy and unfortunately it can be expensive . I know people like to cook chicken or talk about cooking chicken but I believe that the protein needs to be higher.
It’s been a struggle but I will tell you after six months of starting her on this diet my vet did come back into the room with her results and was completely shocked.
The last few weeks we have had probably one of the worst attacks that she’s ever had and I did put her back on some meds and the prescription food but she wasn’t getting better so now I’m putting her back on the rabbit in hopes that her levels come down so we will see.
Diet is everything dogs really are no different then people some people could actually learn from this the dog food advisor is a good place to go.
But going the cheaper route with a low-quality food will definitely not end well.

[Patricia A]

I think the freeze dried version of raw is always more expensive . Frozen raw is probably the way to go with large breed dogs. I find Primal is great and also use Stella’s. Primal has Pronto frozen bags which has small round shape that is scoopable.I have small breeds so I do the freeze dried. I also stick to the 5* proteins/flavors on the reviews here. I believe these are higher protein vs fat to avoid pancreatitis. Bixbi rawbble is excellent also. Much lower in fat in all proteins/flavors. I find them expensive so I give as treats.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 10 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 10 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

Sounds like a good plan to me Amir. I agree with staying away from Orijen/Acana. I know about the lawsuit but it’s really because Acana was mentioned so many times as being fed when their dogs were diagnosed with low taurine or DCM. Lamb and rice frequently.
Mine get home cooked also. Just some boiled chicken, lean steak if they’re and I’m lucky that day. lol
I do like to switch around the freeze dried though. Primal turkey/sardine and duck. They get Bixbi Rawbble as treats only. Really expensive.
Don’t think kibble will ever be the perfect food for dogs . Grain free or not. Just man made for convenience for pet owners. Not natural for our pets to be eating day in and day out for life.
You have about the same feeding regime as me. I wish us luck. Geesh..I didn’t worry so much about what I was feeding my kids when growing as much I do about these two fur babies. lol

• This reply was modified 6 years, 10 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

Congrats on your adoption!! Don’t know about feeding Blue. I’ve read a few negative things about the company. https://www.chagrinfallspetclinic.com/2017/09/14/pet-food-lead-alert-blue-buffalo-blue-wilderness-dog-food-class-action-law-suit/
Maybe someone can chime in about a good base kibble and start the raw with toppers. I use Primal freeze dried , Stella Chewy’s freeze dried and Bixbi freeze dried as treats because Bixbi is so expensive. All expensive in the freeze dried but I have small dogs. I think the frozen would be the way to go with the Primal/stellas’. My dogs are doing great on these. Reviews from advisor are all great also. I used Stella’s baked raw coated as base. However I stopped all kibble until this DCM mess is worked out. No legumes or starches in any of these foods.
Go to advisors reviews on Primal/Stellas for ingredients and to their f/b page to see what others say.
Like I said MY dogs do great with this. No stomach troubles. Just please start VERY slowly.

[Patricia A]

We all have our eyes on the pet food industry and are breathing down their necks to finally get this right.
For now I’m avoiding kibble of any kind. I have small dogs so it’s affordable to feed freeze dried.If you go to Stella’s or Primal’s f/b page, chewys you’ll see there are thousands who feed this to their pets and are doing very well. There are also many posts there questioning their food regarding DCM . So they are very aware that we are holding them accountable in them providing a nutritionally safe product for our pooches. As of now they are not implicated as one the offending foods. At this time we really just don’t know.
I always rotate several brands they have gotten used to and do well with. However I will now eliminate (until this dcm is settled) the protein rabbit and lamb. These “exotic proteins” contain little natural taurine. Will stick with turnkey/sardine, beef, chicken etc. They also get boiled eggs, lean steak, boiled fish, boiled chicken when we have it. When given the all clear I will again give the very little kibble in-between of Stella Chewy’s.
I believe adding taurine-rich fresh foods would be the safest and most beneficial method of introducing more taurine to your dog’s diet. Decreasing the risk of dietary DCM will be one of many benefits of introducing more fresh foods to your dog’s diet! The following table contains a list of food items and their taurine content [15,68]. Seafoods, dark meats, and organ meats generally contain the most taurine. Each food item in this table is raw unless otherwise noted.

Taurine (mg/100g)
Tuna (albacore) 176-200
Tuna (canned) 42
Tuna (whole) 284
Salmon 60-130
Mackerel 78
Mackerel (whole) 207
Cod 31
Whiting 40
Haddock 28
Whitefish 114-151
Clam (fresh) 520
Clam (canned) 152
Shrimp 155-390
Scallops 827
Octopus 388
Mussels 655
Oysters 396-698
Herring (whole) 154
Capelin (whole) 144
Smelt (whole) 69
Chicken (light meat) 18
Chicken (dark meat) 83-170
Chicken breast 16
Chicken leg 34
Chicken liver 110
Chicken hearts & livers 118
Chicken necks & backs 58
Chicken (whole) 100
Turkey (dark meat) 306
Turkey (light meat) 30
Turkey (ground, 7% fat) 210
Duck leg (meat) 178
Duck leg (skin) 62
Rabbit (whole, ground) 37
Beef (ground, 15% fat) 40
Beef (ground, 25% fat) 28
Beef heart 65
Beef kidney 69
Beef spleen 87
Beef lung 96
Beef tongue 175
Beef gullet 80
Pork loin 50-61
Pork lung 78
Pork gullet 65
Pork liver 86
Pork kidney 77
Lamb leg 47
Lamb kidney 24
Venison 60
Veal 40
Horse 31

• This reply was modified 6 years, 11 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 11 months ago by Patricia A.

[Sally R]

Primal charges around $28 for 14 ounces of freeze-dried raw food. It makes 3 pounds when hydrated. So Nature’s Blend doesn’t seem outrageously expensive. My dogs eat only raw food, and I do believe it is better than kibble.
But my question is the source of the ingredients. One of the problems is whether the meats are full of antibiotics and other toxins that can be detrimental to our dogs. Are the meats used in this food from free range or wild sources, and are all the ingredients organically sourced? If so, I’ll definitely order some.

[Patricia A]

I put in a suggestion for this food to be reviewed. Anyone feed this? My one Chihuahua eats her Stella’s kibble topped with Primal or Stella’s freeze dried. My other is hit and miss.. She does eat the Stella’s topped with Bixbi Rawablle. However, my plan is too give very little kibble and mostly freeze dried. Bixbi is way too expensive to do that. My plan was Bixbi as just treats. So I saw this Open Farm freeze dried at my Pet supply store and was less costly then the Bixbi and I like the ingredients. Anyone have experience with this food?

[Patricia A]

I always stick to the 5* flavors/proteins ratings. Very thankful for this site because it least I have a starting point of hopefully a healthy food and if they are thriving on it and also enjoys eating it. Like Libby I alternate Primal and Stella’s. I THINK Rawbble Bixbi is a good freeze dried but way too expensive to feed as meals. They get a few as treats.
Libby mentioned preferring Stella’s over Primal. Aside from Stella’s having higher meat content is Stella’s ingredients overall a wee better then Primal in your opinion?

[Libby G]

Patricia, I have two field labs, both very high energy that compete in dog sports. So I watch their diet carefully. I supplement their Stella frozen raw patties with Primal’s venison, rabbit, or Turkey/sardine nuggets to get the number of ounces I feed each per meal twice a day. So ingredients are crucial to their maintaining the proper weight in addition to getting the right supplements for a healthy diet. I was disappointed to see that Stella went from all venison to a blend. I prefer it overall to Primal as it has the higher meat content.

[Patricia A]

Same question here Libby. I’m thinking because the lamb is MUCH higher in fat? I just brought the venison not realizing it’s a blend now. I’m looking forward to getting the advisors new 2019 list to see if he changes ratings. I also give a little of Stella’s small breed kibble as a base with their Stella’s. A little worried since peas, chickpeas etc are high up on its ingredient list and the DCM concern regarding these legumes might block Taurine
I have Chihuahuas’ so this breed isn’t listed as the dogs most effected. I also alternate with Primal freeze dried duck and turkey/sardine and Bixibi rawbbles as treats.
I also alternate with Primal freeze dried duck and turkey/sardine and Bixibi rawbbles as treats.

• This reply was modified 7 years ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 7 years ago by Patricia A.

[Karen K]

My dog has been on Orijen foot topped with primal raw since I adopted her 2.5 years ago. I recently had her taurine levels tested and they were low. I need a new food. She also has an sensitivity to chicken. Does anyone have any suggestions for a GMO free food that would work for her?

[Patricia A]

I just read Mike Sagmans home page AGAIN as I did when I first found this board a few years ago. It just reminded me of why I was relieved to find The Dog Food Advisor Board. I desperately needed a starting point in choosing dog food for my three Chihuahuas. I would be in a pet store for hours second guessing if I’m feeding them the most nutritious food. It is just so overwhelming with all the brands, flavors, cans, raw etc.
I am now confidently feeding freeze dried primal flavors, Stella’s and Bixbi Rawbbles in rotation. I go by the proteins Mike reviews as 5*’s. I also give a small amount of Stella’s kibble. Also rated by him as 5*. They are healthy and eat with enthusiasm. I was concerned about Stella’s raw coated kibble when this DCM scare came to light. It does have peas up high on ingredient list. However, Mike has not changed his 5 star review for this grain free food. He states in reviews that the abundance of protein in this brand comes from meat and not the peas. It also has added Taurine .Chihuahuas’ are not to my knowledge listed as one of the breeds most likely effected by DCM but will have them tested yearly.
I will continue to read his reviews and put my trust in him and his staff to provide me enough info to make informative decisions in what to feed my fur babies. Dog food Advisor statement below.

We Obsess Over Dog Food
So You Don’t Have To

• This reply was modified 7 years, 1 month ago by Patricia A.

[Sandy C]

Our 13 year old female standard poodle has always been thin between 37-39 lbs. we brought her to the vet for a hot spot this week and when we weighed her she went from 37 lbs in May to 34 lbs mid October and we were shocked. I told my hubby she looked like she was getting thinner. The vet ran blood tests and her creatine was elevated at 1.6 which is slightly over the range and her SDMA was 24 (normal range is 0-14) her BUN is OK and her first morning urine is OK.

She has eaten raw food all her life except for a short period of time where she ate canned. We feed her Stella and Chewys at the present time. She was on Primal but stopped eating it. She has never been a great eater even with the Stella’s and sometime will go a day without eating or only eat 3/4 of her dish. In the last three months it is getting worse.

So, we have two problems- one is getting her numbers down and two putting weight on her. Our vet said to try the Hills KD, Royal Canin. We bought some cans but the ingredients are horrible and I am not even sure if that will put any weight on her if she even eats it. We gave her the Royal Canin T and she barely ate one can and we had to add cooked chicken for her to eat it. That kind of defeats the purpose since chicken is a high source protein.

We are so worried about her!

We cannot cook foods for her as we work so we need a commercial dog food/topper that is low in protein, phosphorus and hopefully high in fat to put some weight on her. She will not eat kibble, because she has had some teeth extracted. I am at the point where we would be willing to try a kibble and maybe soaked it overnight with some low sodium chicken broth?

Any help would be greatly appreciated for our fur baby! We were even wondering if we should get a chest X-ray or abdominal ultrasound to see if anything else is going on?

Thank you!

[Patricia A]

I generally feed freeze dried Primal and Stella’s with rotation of proteins to my two younger Chihuahuas with home cooked in between. My 16 year old will now only eat scrambled eggs(hit and miss), steak when i have it, boiled shredded chicken. She loves watermelon and french fries. At her age I indulge her when other two aren’t looking. lol However I was worried that she wasn’t get proper nutrition. She will eat canned Health Extensions chicken flavor hit and miss also. But I’m very relieved to say that several weeks ago I tried out a sample bag of Bixbi Rawbbles Chicken n Salmon and Hannah Belle is now eating this freeze dried enthusiastically. So now I’m going to try their canned also as a rotation. Ingredients are below and to me all the proteins look great. No peas OR potatoes. Just wanted to share.
Chicken, Chicken Broth, Chicken Liver, Agar-Agar, Natural Flavor, Potassium Chloride, Dandelions, Salt, Choline Chloride, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Sodium Selenite, Manganese Proteinate, Sunflower Oil, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Dicalcium Phosphate, Salmon Oil, Calcium Carbonate, Vitamin E Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin A Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid.

[Olive M]

Their recipe changes are definitely a way to lower the quality of the product. Their rabbit recipe now contains a significant amount of pork, as well as other fillers. It is, actually, virtually identical to the Primal brand of raw foods – and my dog is extremely allergic to Primal foods. I think it’s the clay and the vinegar, at leas, as well as adding proteins she doesn’t tolerate. I’ve been feeding her the new formula without realizing it (I thought only the bag had changed) and she has been absolutely miserable and itchy and her eyes are weeping tremendously. Now I know why. They claim it’s to make it more nutritious, but it’s nothing of the sort. It’s to make it cheaper (for them, not customers) and use more low quality, mass produced meats that many dogs are allergic to.

[Patricia A]

I found these reviews regarding mold in FreshPet. /forums/topic/mold-in-freshpet-food-2/
Also not crazy about these ingredients in the chicken recipe pea fiber, pea protein, carrots, natural flavors, spinach, vinegar, salt, carrageenan
I also have chihuahuas’. They are doing well on Primal freeze dried duck and Turkey/sardine. I also rotate with Stella Chewy’s venison and rabbit. Bixbi Rawbbles has great ingredients. Even my VERY picky 16 year old loves the freeze dried Salmon/chicken recipe. Dog food advisor rates all these proteins 5 stars.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

I have Chihuahuas’ also. Sixteen year old is now on Stella Chewy’s Raw coated kibble small breed with a topper. My four year old and eight year old are both on Stella’s kibble as a small base and get Freeze Dried Stella’s as a topper. Flavors are revieved as five star and they are Chicken, Rabbit, Venison. I also rotate with Primal Freeze Dried Turkey/Sardine and Duck.Both reviews as 5 stars. The only freeze dried topper my 16 year old eats is Bixbi Rawbble in Chicken/Salmon. They not found at Petco but my Pet Supply Store. Very easy to use. Just crumble and add a little warm water. I mix it with the kibble. The Bixbi Chicken/Salmon I just give dry. They are crunchy and almost like a treat to them. All these are high in meat with low carbs.
This is an example of ingredients in Bixbi Beef.
Ingredients: Beef, beef liver, beef kidney, beef bone, pumpkin, coconut oil, salmon oil, selenium yeast, vitamin E supplement, manganese proteinate, riboflavin supplement, calcium iodate, d-calcium pantothenate, mixed tocopherols (a preservative), rosemary extract.
My three are doing great with all the Freeze Dried recipes . I introduced them slowly with each brand and protein. Now I can rotate out. Good luck with your Chi.
This is the Primal duck recipe
INGREDIENTS:
Duck, Duck Necks, Duck Wings, Organic Kale, Duck Hearts, Duck Gizzards, Organic Carrots, Organic Squash, Duck Livers, Organic Broccoli, Organic Apples, Blueberries, Cranberries, Organic Pumpkin Seeds, Organic Sunflower Seeds, Montmorillonite Clay, Organic Parsley, Organic Apple Cider Vinegar, Salmon Oil, Organic Coconut Oil, Organic Quinoa Sprout Powder, Dried Organic Kelp, Alfalfa, Vitamin E Supplement, Mixed Tocopherols (natural preservative).

• This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

Thank’s for the info Susan. I stopped Stella’s raw coated small breed chicken when I read about the DCM with peas/legumes. Went back to Fromm but the gold formula. But didn’t really feel good about giving Fromm anymore . I really rely on Dr. Mike with his ratings and he consistently gave them a 5 in kibble.Also they really liked Stella’s and even my 16 year old eats it. So I just went back to Stella’s as a base and just wanted an understanding as to why it’s a meat based kibble vs plant based . So thank you for explaining that.
I use very little as a base mixed with freeze dried. I alternate with Primal, Stella’s and now Bixbi Rawbble. Just looked up Answers and ingredients very similar to the Bixbi.
Thank’s for suggestion. Like adding into my rotation.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

On a positive note you don’t have to worry about legumes and potatoes in most of the commercial raw foods.. I feed Primal, Stella Chewy’s and Bixbi Rawbble freeze dried which all got 5 stars by the advisor. Might be more cost effective for you though with the raw frozen patties in these brands. I stick to the proteins which the advisor rates as 5 stars These are the ones with a lower fat ratio .So with Primal I stick to Turkey/Sardine protein and the duck, rabbit and venison. I also rotate with the rabbit and venison in Stella’s. Bixbi Rawbbles is freeze dried and expensive. My 16 year old that has gotten VERY picky so she gets the Bixbi in Beef and salmon/chicken which she loves. I switched slowly and now I can rotate these brands and proteins without a problem.

[Patricia A]

To get his appetite going how about good old scrambled eggs with a little american cheese mixed in. Also boiled salmon. Has a strong smell and might get his appetite up. Very lean steak mixed in with kibble. I have a 16 year old and she is hit and miss with her appetite. These food always work. Fromm is also a favorite . Small breed Gold.
My other two get freeze dried Primal/Stella’s. She won’t eat that at all. BUT I recently purchased Bixbi Rawbble Chicken n Salmon freeze dried. Very expensive but she loves it dry.
Hope this helps.

[Claire B]

Thank you for the response. We switch exclusively between the turkey/sardine and duck and I have not noticed any changes on the ones we get purchasing at two different stores. We are having to stay away from anything with rabbit, venison or kangaroo in it as we may have to do a food trial with our boy and he has never had those. He can’t have pork, beef or chicken at the moment. Even eating 20 percent combined with zignature we go through about 3-4 large bags of Primal a month and my husband can’t stomach the raw patties. The Primal has been a life saver for us as he has a high scoring storage mite allergy confirmed by testing and we are having to freeze his kibble as soon as we open bag. He quit eating it entirely until we added it. We will looking into other options entirely once we determine if he also has a food allergy involved.

[Patricia A]

Primal didn’t even put my question on their F/B page. I don’t like that. guess they want only positive posts. I just purchased the turkey/Sardine at my pet supply store but seems fresh and no oily smell. Breaks up very dry like it always did with this protein. I always leaned more towards Primal then Stella’s. I use their rabbit but it’s kind of spongy to break up. I worry that Stella’s is too gimmicky. Also got the boxed response regarding their kibble and FDA report . Advisor gave it 5 stars stating “abundance of meat But their 2nd ingredient is peas then chickpeas. I still don’t understand how advisor knows how much protein is coming from legumes and how much from meat. Going to call Stella’s but don’t think I’ll get a breakdown.
I don’t want to keep switching them so I’ll have to trust Primal and Stella’s. I also give a little Bixbi Rawbble. Very expensive but they like it dry as a treat. I’m just going to rotate the three to be safe.

[Patricia A]

. I now only give kibble to my 16 year old who will only eat as a topper Holistic Health Extensions but it’s only says supplemental on the can. In between she and my other two get boiled chicken, salmon lean steak etc. So I have to give some kibble and has been getting Fromm for years. Switched to Fromm Grain Free Four Star years ago and rotated the proteins but mostly kept to Salmon A la Veg because of small kibble size. But because of FDA report went back to grain inclusive . Got samples of the small breed gold which she ate. After reading what you posted I’m glad my Pet Supply store was out of the gold. Ended up getting what i fed years ago being the grain inclusive Salmon A La VEg. My other two eats rotation of primal freeze dried proteins, Stella’s freeze dried and Bixbi Rawbbles. Wish my 16 year old would eat the raw so I wouldn’t worry so much about this stupid FDA report. At least I HOPE i’m doing the right thing by feeding the raw in these brands.

[pugmomsandy]

I’ve been feeding or mixing in some “raw green tripe” for years. Raw tripe now but years ago I fed canned tripe. Even a small amount in one meal per day might help and decreasing the amount of kibble.

You might also try crumbling up a nugget or two of a freeze dried raw food such as Primal Freeze Dried if you do not like raw frozen. It’s pricey per pound so just a few pieces will do. Bone matter helps to make formed stool. There are several brands of raw foods (frozen, dehydrated and freeze dried) to choose from.

Primal also had frozen grinds (meat and bone) and frozen mixes (meat/bone/some veg) in small chubs.

Sometimes, just decreasing the amount of food helps.

[Patricia A]

I give both Stella Chewy’s and Primal freeze dried as a topper. I used canned as a topper before I started with the freeze dried. I could never give any recipe with beef because it resulted in diarrhea after the second day. Same thing happens with a little topper of steak if it happens to be a fattier cut of meat. So I conclude that it’s too much fat . Don’t want to take any chances with the freeze dried so I just stick to lean proteins such as Rabbit, duck, venison. No problem with Stella’s Salmon and cod topper either. I don’t bother with any chicken recipes since I buy antibiotic free, organic for what it’s worth and shred that as a topper twice a week.
I was always confused by the advisors reviews with giving some recipes of the same brand a 5* rating and others like 2. But if you read further he always states that SOME recipes might not be suitable for every dog because of their fat to protein ratio. So that is what I go by when I pick the proteins. Always the 5 stars that are lower in fat.
As for affordability it doesn’t break the bank since they’re chihuahuas . My sixteen year old will not touch anything besides home cooked, when I have it and her canned Health extensions in chicken as a kibble topper. Kibble being Fromm or Stella’s small breed. Also with the freeze dried, being a very dense food, I believe if I gave the amount they suggest on their feeding guidelines they would be very fat.So it will last longer since a little does go a longer way then believed. . I do want to try Bixbi Rawbble in duck. Very expensive but after going through enough canned food that the one picky one wouldn’t eat and wasting so much each day I think I’m actually SAVING money now with the freeze dried.
Would like to go one day all freeze dried but just haven’t gotten there yet. I do give less and less kibble as a base though.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 3 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 3 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 3 months ago by Patricia A.

[Rena C]

Can dog food advisor investigate and update us on recent quality of Primal freeze dried dog food? Cos recently there were bags (duck recipe and turkey sardine recipe) that I and many other friends purchased smelly really bad (bad oil smell) and like rotten. I’ve been feeding primal duck to my dog for several years and it used to smell very nice, I can tell the difference now once I opened the bag. Is the factory having changed the oil or some ingriedients thar affect and lower he quality now? Is it still justified to rate 5-Star? Is it still no health issue to dogs? Many thanks!

[Nate D]

Thanks for the information. I’ll check those all out.

Instinct and Primal Pets both wrote me back and Instinct has some raw formulas at 10%.
Primal Pets has 3 I could use. Venison and Rabbit are the lowest in fat at just 5% fat. The Turkey & Sardine formula is 7%.
I like the simple ingredients in them too. I just dont like the cost, but they are low carb as well so I might give them a try. I’ve been using Dr. Jone’s Ultimate Canine Formula as an added supplement so it would actually work well with it.

[Patmae B]

Try feeding Answers or Primal raw goats milk. It is a natural probiotic and chocked full of vitamins it can help cure IBD, allergies and help with many health issues in dogs. I swear by it my dogs love it and it even took a sick dog I had that was literally in renal failure to complete recovery and normal kidney values. Please read up on it and its not expensive.

[Reese B]

@Patricia , no, the freeze dried fat content is not the same as their raw. It should be 17% fat in the freeze dried if it was the same as they raw. If you re-read my email exchange with Primal, they admit that the fat content is different in both.

@aimee you’re right, I just get so angry when pet food companies blatantly lie. Since this whole grain free scare, I’m totally at a loss at what to feed my dog (who has allergies to grain) Trying to find a substitute food without grains or legumes has been a nightmare. Then, when you think you found one, they can’t give straight answers about their products…soooo frustrating!

[Patricia A]

Sadly I don’t think I’ve come across a food that DIDN’T list their guaranteed analysis such as protein/fat as Minimum. I’m sure their protein listing is always showing the highest possible amount and the fat showing the lowest but most likely much higher.
Reese if you enlarge where primal shows the guaranteed analysis it shows the guaranteed analysis in the freeze-dried as 28% fat but under that shows the rehydrated as 5%. The same as their raw. https://www.chewy.com/primal-rabbit-formula-nuggets-grain/dp/141872

[Reese B]

Hi Patricia,
The rep doesn’t know what they’re talking about.
The raw and freeze dried are not the exact same thing. The freeze dried has a higher fat content. If they were exactly the same, the fat for the freeze dried rabbit would be 17%, not 28%.

I still haven’t heard back from them. I’m done with primal. I will not buy a product from a company who can’t/won’t answer basic questions about the nutrition of their food.

[Patricia A]

Reese thank’s for posting this again under canine nutrition. No luck with Primal. The rep just didn’t seem to understand what i was asking or didn’t have enough knowledge to answer my questions. Just kept saying that once rehydrated the freeze dried would be the same nutritionally as the raw. Explained my concerns of needing a lower fat recipe and response was give less nuggets. I did some research since I switch between Stella Chewy’s and Primal Freeze Dried. My results were the Primal rabbit is 53% Protein/28% Fat but REHYDRATED is Protein 17%/5% fat. Exactly the same as the raw of same protein when rehydrated. Venison very close to same fat as rabbit and exactly the same as frozen raw rehydrated also. Stella’s which I also rotate with has 5% higher fat with their rabbit and venison.
So do I need to still need to figure out the fat or is label telling me all I need to know regarding the fat???? As usual this is too complicated and I’m confused. Maybe rep gave me the correct info?

• This reply was modified 7 years, 4 months ago by Patricia A.

[Jen T]

Hi, our Westie has been battling TCC (bladder cancer) for almost a year now. Our holistic vet switched her diet to dehydrated raw (Stella & Chewy’s and Primal) which she was doing well on. Recently, she is not interested in any dehydrated food/treats but will eat homemade foods (http://westierescueoc.com/the_westie_diet). We’re not looking to feed her this for long but since she’s been diagnosed with TCC, she’s had issues with crystals and bladder stones as well. Up until last year, she has been the healthiest dog with no issues other than skin allergies.

Does anyone have suggestions on a wet/canned food that is low on carbs for a dog with cancer and who is prone to bladder stones? She doesn’t digest chicken or lamb very well, and has rather soft bowel movements when the protein is too high (from what we’ve seen). It’s been hard trying to get the right food for her due to her soft bowel movements, cancer, and bladder stones. Thank you so much!

[Reese B]

Hi guys,
This will be a long post.
So, with the new “grain free scare” I’ve been thinking about trying raw or freeze dried raw. I was looking at primal products but couldn’t figure out why the nutrition profiles were so different from their raw vs. freeze dried. On the website they state that their freeze dried is exactly the same as their raw except the moisture is removed. So I wrote them to find out more. Below is my e-mail exchange so far….

ME:
I’m new to raw and looking for a lower fat option. I’m on the fence between raw frozen and freeze dried and was looking over the products on your website to see if any fit the bill of what I was looking for.
I noticed your frozen raw rabbit formula was low fat at 17% protein and 5% fat.
I then looked at the freeze dry formula and was surprised to see the protein is listed at 50% and the the fat is 28%.
When I did the math to convert the frozen formula to a dry matter basis I got that the protein should be 58% and the fat should be 17%

17 / 29 x 100 = 58% for protein

5 / 29 x 100 = 17% for fat

Did I do the math wrong? I don’t understand why the protein and fat is so different on for your frozen vs freeze dried rabbit formula if the ingredient are the same.
If you could explain, that would be greatly appreciated.

PRIMAL’S REPLY:
Thank you for contacting us. I can see how the math can get confusing. The nutritional values on our site are listed on an as-fed basis. Of course you’ll see that when you compare the guaranteed analysis of our freeze-dried formula to our raw frozen formula, the protein and fat levels in the freeze-dried varieties appear to be elevated at first glance. However, the key to understanding this difference lies in the moisture content. Since the moisture has been removed in the freeze-dried product, this causes the protein and fat levels to increase. For best feeding results, we recommend rehydrating with water. The weight of a freeze-dried nugget weighs less than that of a raw nugget because moisture has been removed. Nutritionally, a raw nugget is the same as a freeze-dried nugget when rehydrated or consumed with water.

ME:
I understand that the values are listed on as fed basis…but my question is regarding why the math doesn’t add up from your raw to freeze dried formula. If you re-read my original email you’ll see I’ve done the math to convert you raw formula to a dry formula and the values don’t match what is listed on the freeze-dried product.
If you convert the raw rabbit recipe into a dry matter basis, the protein should be 58% and the fat should be 17%. However that’s not what’s listed on the product. So I’m wondering how did you determine the values for the freeze dried formula?

(EDIT: I didn’t get a reply to the above email, so I wrote to them again.)

ME:
I haven’t heard back from anyone regarding this. Maybe I’m not asking my question in a way that makes sense. Let me try to explain…
I understand that freeze dried food will always have higher nutritional values because the moisture is removed making it a higher concentration, however, the values on your freeze dried product don’t make sense compared to your raw frozen product from a mathematical stand point.
For example, your frozen raw rabbit has a 17% protein and 5% fat. If I convert these to dry matter based on the formula on your blog (https://primalpetfoods.com/blogs/news/guaranteed-analysis-what-does-it-mean) it should be 58% for protein and 17% for fat.
% guarantee ÷ dry matter x 100
17 ÷ 29 x 100 = 58% for protein
5 ÷ 29 x 100 = 17% for fat
However, on your freeze dried rabbit nuggets the protein is listed as 53% and the fat is listed as 28%.
There is no way the fat in the freeze dried product should be that high if it’s the same ingredients/formula as the frozen raw. I’ve noticed several other of your freeze dried formula’s are listing fat at a much higher percentage than it should be.
Please explain to me how you are getting the values for your freeze dried products.

PRIMAL:
I apologize for my delay in response but greatly appreciate your patience! Please see below for assistance with your conversion:
1. The Protein/Fat content printed on the packaging is usually the exact lab result, and may depend on the source and part of the rabbit tested*.
2. Approximate average figures are generally 3 X Frozen values:
PFF Calculated Frozen : Protein (17), Fat (5) – Approximate – Calculated Freeze-dried : Protein (51), Fat (15) – Approximate
– PFF Actual Freeze-dried : Protein (50), Fat (28) – Actual lab results*(Variability in raw source)
– Customer Calculated Freeze-dried : Protein (58), Fat (17) – Approximate
We suggest using PPF calculated amount to make the final decision.

ME:
Thanks for your response. I’d like to make sure that I understand this correctly. When the lab tested both the raw and freeze dried, they got different values for fat and protein for both formula’s (even though they are the same), because different or fattier parts of the rabbit could have been used in the freeze dried batch?
The approximate average figures are generally 3x the frozen value, but it this case it’s 6x the fat. ( 5% fat in the raw rabbit vs 28% fat in the freeze dried rabbit.)
Do you lab test each batch for protein and fat content, as it seems it can vary considerably.
On the freeze dried product it states that 28% is the minimum fat content, meaning it could be higher, but not lower.
This is where I’m confused because if the raw frozen and freeze dried are essentially the same product (just with moisture removed) the freeze dried variety had a much higher fat content than the raw…meaning different batches have different fat content. So it’s impossible to say that the minimum fat in the freeze dried rabbit is 28%, right? There are batches that could have less fat depending on the source and part of the rabbit tested.
Please let me know if this is correct.

PRIMAL:
While we are required to list guaranteed analysis information in terms of minimums and maximums, the values we’ve chosen to post are not actually a minimum or a maximum. We list the actual values that we receive from our lab tests.

ME:
That doesn’t make sense to me. You’re required to list guaranteed information in terms of minimum and maximum, but you’re choosing not to? I’m not trying to be difficult, I just genuinely don’t understand. Should I disregard the minimum/maximum values on your packaging?
YOU didn’t answer my other questions. Do you test each batch for fat/protein content? How did you decide what is listed on the freeze dried package in terms of protein and fat? Did you test multiple batches and give an average or did you only test one batch and print those results on all of the packaging?
Based on your previous emails I’m assuming that the fat content on the freeze dried product is much higher than the fat listed on the frozen raw product because of “the source or part of rabbit.”
But that being said, in other batches of food a leaner rabbit source could be used making the fat content lower. So am I correct in saying the 28% fat is not the definite minimum and could be much lower in other batches depending on the rabbit source?

(I sent that last e-mail to primal on Aug 2nd, and I have not gotten a reply back since.
Does what they’re saying make sense to anyone? I thought they were required to list minimum or maximum values….any thoughts?)

[Patricia A]

Reese maybe we should copy n paste our posts on the dog food nutrition forum, diet and health or dog food ingredients. Think it would fit under those forums better and maybe get some help with this. I’m also trying to figure out if the Stella chewys Rabbit is less fat then Primal. My brain is fried from trying to figure out these labels. Why do WE have to do it. All I know is that when I look under the reviews of advisor he puts under the raw lets say high protein/average fat/low carbs and when I look under same brand with same protein but freeze dried he has a different review of maybe high protein/HIGH fat/low carbs. Maybe that’s why my chubby is not losing weight since switching to freeze dried. Maybe I’m giving her MORE fat then when I was giving some Fromm kibble and canned? Will call Primal tomorrow and Stella’s also and pin them down about this.