My question is an extension of the “which food is best”. If you feed a variety of 5 star rated dry foods (i.e. they meet the nutritional requirements), is it a good idea to supplement your adult dogs diet with fresh foods (e.g., tomatoes, apples, eggs, salmon oil, carrots, lean cooked meat, yogurt). All these are foods that my 50 lb. golden mix likes. I feed them to him occasionally as treats. However, should I be feeding them on a regular basis as supplements?
Thanks.
Leslie
Hi brianb22 –
It’s great that you’re considering switching to a rotational diet – providing a wide variety of quality species-appropriate foods is the best thing we can do for our pets.
I currently feed a homemade raw diet with different proteins, different supplements and different fruits/vegetables at each meal. When I was feeding kibble, however, I switched to a new brand with a new protein source at the end of every bag (about every 3 weeks for my 110 lb. male bloodhound) – all the while adding a different canned food toppers daily. When you first begin a rotation diet you may find that it will be necessary to slowly transition between brands (because your dogs are used to eating the same thing daily), but once you do it for awhile and your dogs’ guts strengthen you should be able to switch brands with no transition.
Any of the 4 or 5 star foods would be good options to use in your rotation – which foods you choose will really depend on your budget. I used dry foods that were grain-free and had at least 30% protein, some of my favorites were: Orijen, Nature’s Variety Instinct and Acana. I picked canned foods that were grain-free, some of my favorites were: Nature’s Logic, Tripett, ZiwiPeak and Addiction.
I’d also recommend adding some fresh foods to your dogs’ meals occasionally. Some healthy fresh foods: plain yogurt or kefir (high in quality animal-based protein and probiotics for a healthy gut), tinned sardines or mackerel (high in protein and omega 3’s), eggs (high in quality protein and omega 3’s), lean leftover meat (high in quality protein) and steamed low glycemic veggies (high in antioxidants).
Good luck!
Hi acarnes –
My suggestion would be to pick out a high quality 4 or 5 star food and add a supplemental source of fiber rather than limiting your options to high fiber foods only. Most health food stores sell fiber supplements with ingredients such as psyllium, pectin, bran, etc. Talk to your vet about how much supplemental fiber you should be giving your dog per day.
I’ve tried many probiotic supplements for my dogs, including Mercola which I thought worked fine.
Recently, I used Micro Flora + from Herbsmith and loved it! Now, however, I’m not using a probiotic for them because they are doing great without one. I admit I have switched them back to Natural Balance’s limited ingredient kibble. Right now, they are eating the Swt. Pot. & Fish. I’ve been topping it with Merrick, NB, TOTW, 4Health, Blue Stews, Wellness Stews and all are doing the best they have done in years. Stools great, breath great, coats great, appetites great and all without any supplements. I’m just flabbergasted! I admit I boycotted NB (because of Diamond) and I still don’t like the fact that they use them :(, but I have to say this food is working so well. Laverne, who is my worst in the stool, allergy/intolerance dept. is doing the best she’s done since I’ve had her. Twelve year old Lucy is acting even more young, Hazel’s coat is so shiny. I’m very pleased! But, back on topic….if I were to use a probiotic again I would go with Herbsmith’s Micro Flora +.
Hi ella, I agree with Sandy. Homemade raw – while more time consuming – is so much cheaper than commercial raw. There are some great books out there with balanced recipes – “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown is my favorite and Dr. Becker also has a great book out called “Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats.” I have three bloodhounds and it would cost me over $1,000 per month to feed most commercial raw foods – I’m spending around $400 a month to feed all three homemade raw (that’s including supplements and everything). I order most of my meat from a wholesale supplier for less than $1 per pound and other meats I order from Hare Today (reasonable prices and reasonable shipping), I buy my supplements from Swanson’s (very reasonably priced quality supplements). I have my recipes posted on the recommended menus thread if you want to check out the types of meats/supplements I feed. The other benefit to homemade raw is that you’re in complete control of quality. If you’re not comfortable making your own food I’d say that the cheapest commercial raw brands would be Answer’s, Bravo Balance, HPP or K9 Kraving.
It would probably be best to stick with chicken at this point. I doubt the sardines had anything to do with it – but if that was her first time eating sardines, it could be possible.
I’ve actually never been in a GNC, but I’m sure they’d have probiotic supplements. You want to look for a supplement with as many strains as possible. Most of the higher quality probiotic supplements have at least 8 strains.
Good luck! I hope this helps you can figure out what’s going on with her.
They’re probably still in recovery mode so their gut is still probably not optimal. Are you giving them extra supplements or their normal dose? It hasn’t been that long has it? I thought they might still be on the homemade rice and turkey.
I feed grinds for breakfast because it’s easier to incorporate the vegetables and supplements. For dinner they get RMB’s – usually a pork neck or a chicken back with some hearts, gizzards, eggs, etc. I think as long as at least a few meals a week are RMBs the dog will be getting the dental benefits.
When my dogs get too much bone sometimes their poop is almost a powder – it’s really light colored and they’ll go and it’ll just crumble into a powder. When they get a meal of organs their poop it usually darker than normal, never runny though.
You’re not looking at the right thing. Swanson’s may sell gentle digest but Gental DIgest is not their brand of probiotic and can be purchased elsewhere. Go to SwansonVitamins.com – Swanson’s has two probiotic supplements that I’ve used:
Stephen Langer’s Ultimate 15 Strain Probiotic with FOS. It’s $14.99 for 60 capsules and in addition to 15 strains of probiotics has FOS (prebiotic) and trace minerals.
Swanson Ultra Soil Based Organisms. It’s $9.99 for 90 capsules, has 4 digestive enzymes, wheat grass, oat grass, barley juice, a vegetable concentrate blend, trace minerals and 15 strains of probiotics.
The more strains of probitoics the better. Different probiotics have different functions and you want a diverse population the gut.
I would also carry NutriSource. Like HDM says, lots of supplements. Quality treats and toys too
Any dog with a sensitive tummy needs to be placed on a digestive supplement with pre/probiotics and digestive enzymes. Sometime with the simple addition of a digestive supplement you can cure a sensitive tummy completely. Swansons has some nice digestive supplements at a great price. NutriSource has a chicken and rice food that is usually easy to transition to, so it should be good for a sensitive tummy. Their other flavors are also usually easy to transition to. Try adding a tablespoon of pure canned pumpkin to every meal until he is completely transitioned too.
I bought the Ubiquinol from Mercola. I had been looking at supplements and was shocked when I went to see our TCVM vet and asked what he thought the best heart health supplement would be for my healthy Cavalier King Charles Spaniel and he recommended Ubiquinol for her. The only problem with it was that the pump bottle malfunctioned and I was only able to use it a couple of times before the pump stopped working altogether. I called customer service at Mercola and they said they were having a problem with the Ubiquinol pump bottle and wanted to get the bottle back to send to quality control at the manufacturer. Unfortunately, I have no idea what difference the supplement could’ve made long term as a result; but would definitely try it again.
I have the Mercola krill it what seems like the identical pump bottle and have never had a problem with that at all.
If you could feed her mostly canned food or canned/kibble combo at her age that would be great. They are less processed than extruded kibble and are high in moisture (of course) which is a good thing for all dogs any age. Be sure to get a product that is ‘complete and balanced’ versus ‘for intermittent or supplemental feeding only’ to be sure she is getting vitamins/minerals. A green/superfood supplement is beneficial as well. I’ve used Dr. Harvey’s supplements or similar. My 14 yr old is eating 1/2 cup of kibble with 1 cup of wet food/home made food with supplements (probiotics, green supplement, joint supp) or just wet food. Some sort of fiber of your choice (I use psyllium) will help bulk up her stools. She can have 1 teaspoon of psyllium. Or you can use canned pumpkin or even chia seed for fiber.
I would like to share my experience with see spot live longer dinner mixes.
I ordered 135 of the single serving packets on 6-5-2012. I wanted them for my own dogs and for my friends to sell at their dog wash. The packets are VERY hard to open. There is no notch in the packet so you have to cut it open. The powder inside falls out when you cut them open and it is very messy. My friends tried everything possible to sell them but people just did not want to deal with the badly designed packets and the high price. They were offered at buy one get one half off and when they still did not sell they were offered at cost.
I wanted to try this supplement but it was a pain to use so I went with other supplements for my own dogs. I contacted Steve Brown on April 6th 2013 to see if he would swap any of the old packets for the newly redesigned 1 pound bags which are over 50% cheaper per serving. Steve Brown never even bothered to respond to my email. I had to email him twice before I finally received a reply from Chris Gelalich the general manager.
Mr Gelalich offered me one bag at no cost and said I waited too long to let them know there was a problem and that the packets were now expired. I checked and the packets were made in February of 2012. So they were already 4 months old when I received them. I find this pretty strange after Steve told me:
“Our website reviews some of the major features of See Spot Live Longer™ Homemade Dinner Mixes : fresh, lean, complete and balanced ancestral-type meals for dogs. The freshness is especially important, most commercial raw diets are not fresh, and many may exceed USDA standards for “quality:” ground meat is only considered to be quality if it’s consumed less than 3 months since manufacturing.”
Today I sent my final email to Steve as it is more than 2 weeks since I first emailed him and I have sent 3 emails to him in the last week with no reply.
Hi Cyndi –
Please don’t blame yourself for the death of your previous dog. We’ve all been there and made poor nutritional choices for our animals. If you didn’t know better than it wasn’t your fault. My current dogs eat a homemade raw diet – I used to feed Beneful, Dad’s, Alpo, etc. It’s a learning experience!
I completely understand your apprehension about beginning a raw diet. I was the same way when I started. I was so concerned about percentages and how many ounces of this and how many ounces of that and worried that they were missing something or getting too much of something else. You’ll get comfortable with it, trust me. I personally started with “semi-homemade” – I’d use pre-mixes to which all I had to add was meat or buy meat/organ/bone grinds to which all I had to add was veggies and supplements. I bought Steve Brown’s book “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” and finally got the confidence to try one of his recipes and make my first meal completely from scratch. I now formulate my dogs’ menus all on my own and they’re complete and balanced. Just start slow!
I am going to order from My Pet Carnivore but I am wondering if I need to add any supplements to this meat orders? I want to feed all natural and lower fat and so they recommended Young beef chunks and so I added a few others to my order since these meats looked a bit lower in fat also. Does my shopping cart look ok for my Pancreatitis girl? Do I need to delete or add anything else from this company?? I need to order today so it will ship out Monday.
I am sorry for constant asking questions but I am such a newbie to feeding raw. Thank you very much 🙂
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YOUNG BEEF CHUNKS-5 LB.
010052 $11.45 $11.45
Ground Whole Mutton-2 LB.
010039 $7.50 $7.50
5 LB. Ground Chicken SUPERMIX
CGSM5 $10.75 $10.75
Ground Beef Trachea & Gullet-2 LB.
BGTG-2 $3.98 $3.98
Ground Lamb Supreme-2 LB.
LMSP-2 $7.75 $7.75
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Yay Cyndi! I have also recently (as in yesterday) started researching a raw food diet for my 50lb ACD. I found a page (and forgot to bookmark) that helped me decide that with his weight range, I should give him about 1000 Cal/day, or about 1.25lb each day of food, including boneless meat and raw meaty bones. HDM’s suggestions are great, and I went today all around town to local butchers, grocery stores, and even a vet that has knowledge and that supports raw food diets. I made a list of what each place had to offer based on who had better prices on things, especially harder to find things like beef hearts and turkey necks. Ended up buying 3 fryer chickens that were on sale for $0.77 a lb, and some other stuff on sale. My plan is to establish my budget that I can devote to this, price everything up, and start saving. And also to buy meat when I see it for a great price. We are lucky in my area to have access to a local butcher, several grocery stores (HEB has had the best selection of doggy type meats for decent prices) and also a natural/organic food store that has a ton of the great supplements that I have seen mentioned. Check the “Transitioning to raw” thread on this section of the forum, it has a lot of great info and I think a sample recipe from HDM. There’s also a thread “Suggested raw dog food menus” that has several recipes that HDM and others have posted.
Hi Ken –
I’m so sorry to hear about your dog!
You’re going to want to get him on a high protein, low carbohydrate diet – a fresh, natural diet is ideal. Glucose (found in carbohydrates) acts as food for tumors – so the more carbohydrates in the diet, the more fuel there is for the tumor to grow. High levels of high quality (animal based) protein should be included in each meal. The tumor competes with the dog’s body for amino acids – so higher levels of complete proteins will help to ensure the dog’s body receives adequate levels of amino acids.
Some supplements that may be beneficial for certain types of cancer:
-Turmeric
-Bromelain
-Medicinal Mushrooms
-Amino Acid Supplements (particularly arginine and glutamine)
-Omega 3’s
These website have some great information:
dogaware.com/health/cancer.html
k9medicinals.com/dog-cancer-diet
Hi Cyndi –
It’s wonderful that you’re considering a raw diet for your dog!
Owning three large and active dogs, I can sympathize with you on wanting to keep things cheap. My tips for keeping raw feeding budget friendly would be:
1. Rely on chicken, turkey, pork and beef as your primary protein sources – they’re the cheapest per pound.
2. Rather than feeding boneless meat and supplementing with calcium, incorporate raw meaty bones (chicken necks, turkey necks, etc.) as the calcium source. RMB’s are much cheaper per pound than boneless meat.
3. Rely on hearts and gizzards as your primary source of muscle meat in the diet. While boneless skinless chicken breast might be more appealing to a person, there’s no reason dogs need to eat these expensive cuts of meat.
4. Add things like eggs, cottage cheese, yogurt or kefir to stretch the meal a bit with some cheap but high quality animal-based protein.
5. Avoid pre-ground meats, they’re generally more expensive. Feed meat in chunks or dice it yourself.
6. Buy bulk – try to locate a wholesale supplier. Shop the manager’s specials at the grocery store.
7. Use supplements made for humans rather than for dogs, believe it or not they’re generally much cheaper. I order from Swanson Vitamins (cheap, high quality, big variety).
We just adopted a five year old maltipoo who has had several litters of puppies. Her last litter was very recent and has taken a toll on her. Her fur is very thin and brittle and she has a hotspot. Has anyone had this issue? She’s on pedigree right now, but I want to switch her to grain free. I have some supplements as well, msm, flax oil and coconut oil.
Hi shelties mom –
I do believe that dogs should be fed a diet rich in joint maintaining compounds (glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM, etc.) for a lifetime in order to promote optimum joint health. A dog’s natural ancestral diet which is rich in bones, cartilage and sinew, would naturally contain high levels of these joint health promoting substances. For those feeding a raw diet that includes bones/cartilage, it generally isn’t necessary to supplement with joint supplements unless the dog has an orthopedic condition (i.e. hip dysplasia) or until the dog reaches its senior years. For dogs not eating a species-appropriate diet I feel it’s a good idea to supplement the diet with whole foods naturally rich in joint health compounds (think fresh or dried trachea chews, gullet, poultry feet, etc.) or give a low dose of a joint support supplement for maintenance (the dosage can be increased as the dog ages or begins to show symptoms of arthritis). Some whole food supplements beneficial for joint health would be sea cucumber, shark cartilage or green lipped mussel (generally come in capsules or powder). A standard glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM supplement will also suffice. If a dog is showing signs of pain or inflammation it can also be beneficial to combine a joint maintenance supplement with a natural anti-inflammatory such as boswellia, yucca, turmeric, bromelain, tart cherry, etc.
NectarMom – Green Tripe is about 48% protein and 46% fat on a dry matter basis. High fat and high protein.
Weimlove – I wrap pork necks in freezer wrap – I can’t think of exactly what it’s called but it’s like saran wrap but thicker and for the freezer. I wrap them individually. For turkey necks and chicken backs I get the big freezer bags and put three backs to a bag or 6 necks (enough for one dinner for three dogs). That way everything is easy to pull out of the freezer. Meat/extras/supplements together I’m currently spending about $300 – $350 a month – so roughly $100 per month per dog. I was able to cut my costs significantly after finding the wholesale supplier. I used to pretty much only feed Hare Today, My Pet Carnivore and meat from the grocery and I’d buy pre-mixed supplements which got ridiculously expensive (before I got my new pup I was spending more on feeding only two dogs than I’m now spending on feeding three dogs!). It’s so much cheaper to buy in bulk and make everything from scratch (including supplements).
Thank you for your reply. That is what I was hoping to hear. I do purchase probiotics and enzymes fairly regularly. My family has been supportive of my new dog food obsession. Lol! It’s funny with our previous dog, we pretty much fed the same kibble forever. We had a big gulp cup from 7-11 in it. And just filled his bowl twice a day. Now I have two bags of kibble, kept in original bags, inside tubs with lids. I have directions above tubs hanging on walls, with details on exactly how much to feed each dog at each feeding with the measuring cups I have in the bags. Just in case I’m not home and my husband or one of my kids is here to feed them. Again, thank you and I won’t worry about using the Kirkland cuts and gravy for too long as long as we are rotating kibble and using digestive supplements occasionally.
Do you supplement with digestive enzymes? Enzyme supplements that include pancreatin, in some cases, is believed to help reduce the risk of acute pancreatitis or control chronic pancreatitis. Pancreatin is comprised of the amylase, lipase and protease produced by the pancreas. The idea is that adding supplemental pancreatin to the diet of a pancreatitis prone dog will lessen the stress on the dog’s pancreas. Another option would be a pancreas glandular – most glandulars are derived from bovine sources so I’m not sure if that would trigger a sensitivity (I know you’re trying to stick to turkey for the time being). Just some things to consider.
Hi Kevinh219 –
It sounds like you have a knowledgeable vet – it’s always nice to see a vet recommending a more species-appropriate diet rather than the big name veterinary brands like Science Diet and Purina. 🙂
Rather than looking for a food that has all of these items, I’d suggest just finding a few grain-free puppy foods with over 30% protein that you like and adding the glucosamine, chondroitin and L-carnitine separately. Most supplements present in commercial foods are just for marketing anyways, the food rarely contains high enough levels to have any therapeutic effect. Glucosamine, chondroitin and L-carnitine can all be purchased from human supplement stores/websites – Swanson Vitamins has great prices. Just check with your vet to get recommended dosages.
I am considering switching my 15 year old lab/shepherd mix’s dog food. I am currently feeding Royal Canin Hypoallergenic Selected Protein Large Breed Adult PW prescription diet. It is a potato (white potato) and white fish (herring) limited ingredient diet. The reason that I am looking to switch is due to cost. The price has been increasing on and off for the last 3 years and the last time I picked up a bag from my vet it was nearly $106.00 for a 26.4 lb bag, one month ago it was $98.00. She has been on a prescription diet since she was only 5 years old and has had many health problems so I have reservations about switching. She has inflammatory bowel disease and heart disease. Specifically she has an enlarged heart, leaking mitral valve and leaking tricuspid valve. She also had pancreatitis three times in her earlier years. She is on an ACE inhibitor and diuretic for her heart (Enalapril and Furosemide). The prescription diet is for her IBD and not her heart.
What I am looking for is a food with a fish based protein source. I would like to keep her on herring but I am not finding many OTC foods that have herring and after reading about the California Natural recall that one no longer a choice for us.
I have some questions about the fish and potato sources.
How big of a difference would it be to switch her from herring to a different fish like salmon? Would it make a big difference if the potato source is sweet potato vs. white potato?
Would it make a big difference if she has been eating a food with only one fish source and I switch her to a food that contains many different fish sources like Orijen’s 6 Fish formula?
Lastly, her current food does not have any Omega 3 or 6 added and my vet has advised against giving her Omega 3 supplements due to her IBD and pancreatitis in the past, therefor would it pose problems if I switch her to a food that has added Omega’s in addition to the fish source?
The brands I am currently researching are Evo, Orijen, Wellness, Canine Caviar, Innova Prime, Fromm, Diamond Naturals or Earthborn Holistic. Do any of these brands stand out in a nutritional aspect more than others? Are there any other brands with a fish formula that I am missing that may be an option for her?
I am sorry this is so long. Any help at all would be so very much appreciated!
Thank You,
Tonya
Thanks HDM. I’m been wanting to reconcile my supplements! Seems I’ve got too many! I’ve been thinking of some whole food vits too. I’ve started using Garden of Life Raw Meal and it’s a bunch of sprouted grains/nuts/seeds, probiotics, enzymes, greens. I’ve been giving him 1 teaspoon with his meals. http://www.vitacost.com/garden-of-life-organic-raw-meal-vanilla-2-5-lbs
I’m also feeding him canned food and a little bit of kibble. When hubby feeds he just does kibble. He still gets around for his age! Still uses the doggy door!
My 3 pug mixes I have right – they’re a wee bit cra-cra!! Absolutely bonkers! I’d rather have a dozen old full pugs!
Hi all!
As I am a hoarder now of dog foods and supplements, I was wondering what yall thought about a diet/supplement schedule for my 14 yr old foster. He’s blind, deaf and has arthritis.
Our Coton De Tulear has liver disease and he is only 7. His liver is extremely small and he is going downhill. We started feeding him Science Diet for Liver but it is a poorly rated dog food.
We also are giving him milk thistle, Xanex for discomfort, lactulose and Ursodiol to unblock the bile ducts.
Is there no better dog food out there for a dog with a failing liver? We were feeding him an home-made food, but are concerned that there are no supplements that he may need. We also were giving him Fromm Whitefish and Potato but he can no longer handle it.
Any advice would be helpful. We don’t want to lose him and have heard that liver can be reversed!
Blurose,
Usually 2-3% of your dog’s body weight per day and adjust for his activity level. I have small indoor dogs so they would eat just under 2% if they were just eating raw but they eat a variety of foods. Hounddogmom has a list of supplements she gives in the raw food menus thread I think. Maybe she will see this post and chime in. I do give a supergreen supplement and fish oil.
I an thinking about switching my 70 pound Golden Retriever to a raw food diet. How do you determine the amount of food to give each day? I am planning on using frozen raw with bone already incorporated. Also, would I need to add any supplements? Thank you for your help.
I’m not a vet, but when my Shih-Poo, Desi…rip, had an attack of pancreatitis the food that worked best for him was Wellness Core Reduced Fat. There are some very good enzyme supplements on the market. The Mercola brand uses animal based instead of plant based and are considered very good. They also make a probiotic supplement with multiple strains. Go to mercola.com in the pets section to read about them. Some sources to read about pancreatitis are: dogaware.com, b-naturals.com and askariel.com to name a few. You could also ask your vet about the enzymes….my vet gave me some when Desi had his attack.
my 10 yo golden retriever was hospitalized over the weekend for pancreatitis. she is home now and just starting to eat small amts of boiled chicken and rice. tolerating it well:) any suggestions for commercial food for down the road with low fat, high fiber and protein. also, can anyone recommend any supplements(enzymes) for dogs prone to pancreatitis.any suggestions would be appreciated.
Hi Bigcoco –
1) 30% bone is way too much. As Patty said, bone should comprise 10% of the diet. The calcium to phosphorus ratio needs to be between 1:1 and 2:1 (ideally around 1.2 – 1.3:1). When the diet is 10% bone, 10% organ meat and 80% muscle meat the calcium to phosphorus ratio is right within that optimal range. A diet of 30% bone will be throwing that ratio of balance.
2) I checked out the product website and I can’t see where organs are included in the mixes? All I see is where they state 70% meat and 30% bone. If organ meat is not included in adequate quantities in the 70% “meat” you’ll need to feed organ meat. Organ meat should comprise 10% of the diet – 5% being liver and 5% being other organs (kidneys, lungs, spleen, pancreas, brain, etc.). Organ meat provides crucial vitamins and minerals that aren’t provided by muscle meat.
3) I can’t find where the level of vitamin e in the Bravo salmon oil is stated on their website and often the amounts added to fish oils are too low. I checked out the Pet Naturals of Vermont Daily Best supplement and there is little vitamin e in that either. Small dogs should get 50 – 100 IU per day, medium dogs 100 – 200 IU per day and large dogs 200 – 400 IU per day. Vitamin e requirements increase when fish oil (omega 3’s) is being supplemented, if adequate quantities are not received with omega 3 fatty acid supplementation the dog will eventually develop a vitamin e deficiency.
4) It’s also possible your dog could be deficient in certain trace nutrients – it’s hard telling without a nutrient analysis but because the Pet Naturals supplement is designed to be fed with a complete and balanced commercial food the amounts of vitamins and minerals are very low (as they are with most pet supplements). To ensure your dog is getting all the trace nutrients he needs I’d recommend either supplementing with a human multivitamin – base the dosage off a 100 lb. person (i.e. 25 lb. dog gets 1/4 human dosage, 50 lb. dog gets 1/2 human dosage, 75 lb. dog gets 3/4 human dosage, 100 lbs.+ gets human dosage) – or adding whole food supplements. I prefer to avoid synthetic supplements for my dogs so I feed a variety of nutrient-dense whole food supplements like kelp, alfalfa, bee pollen, spirulina, wheatgrass, glandulars, sprouted nuts & seeds, etc.
“Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown is a fantastic resource for raw feeding. It’s a really great book for beginners – short and easy to understand and includes AAFCO compliant recipes. You may want to checkout this book. It was a constant resource for me when I first started feeding homemade raw.
I bought their bugs off garlic for my horses and got free stuff for my dogs for years. I love their spirulina and fresh factors.
Thanks. I will give them a try.
I’m assuming you mean Springtime, Inc. And yes, I’ve heard of them and have used them off and on for many years. I really like them. I’ve used their Fresh Factors (great whole food vitamin which I like because Lucy hates most things mixed into her food) and I’ve used their Joint Health and their new Advanced Joint chews. They worked great for my deceased Shih-Poo, Desi, who had both rear luxating patellas. And the Advanced Joint worked when Lucy hurt herself once. I’ve also used their Omegas 3-6-9 and liked them, as well as their Bug-Off Garlic chews for fleas. Love the stuff and they always have b1g2 deals…and if you buy so much you can try free stuff.
I got a catalog from them in the mail. Has anyone tried any of them? The joint supplements look interesting. Thanks.
Hi cashmyhorse –
If home cooking for your dog is something you’re willing to do and can afford, I strongly feel that a balanced homemade diet utilizing fresh, low glycemic ingredients would be the best option for your dog.
Here is some information on diet and diabetes:
dogaware.com/articles/wdjdiabetesdiets.html
As far as balancing the diet, there is a company called “Balance IT” that has vitamin/mineral supplements designed to balance a homemade diet. There is a recipe generator on their website in which you can enter information about your dog, including any health issues such as diabetes, and a recipe will be created to suit your dog’s needs – check it out at balanceit.com. There are also some pre-mixes with low glycemic ingredients that would be suitable for a dog with diabetes – The Honest Kitchen’s Preference, Grandma Lucy’s Pureformance and Birkdale Petmix. With the “Balance IT” supplements and pre-mixes generally all you need to add is meat and water, all the vitamins the dog needs are in the mix. If you want to feed a completely made from scratch diet, invest in a good book with recipes that conform to AAFCO nutrient standards. My favorite book is “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown. Another great book is “Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats” by Dr. Becker. Dog Aware has some great tips on homemade diets as well.
Hi Rambo and Fancy –
Another “prescription” option that would be much higher quality than the Hill’s prescription food is one of the formulas from Rayne Clinical Nutrition. They have a low protein formula for dogs with liver issues. The ingredients are: sweet potato, water, egg, butternut squash, canola oil, sunflower oil, vitamin and mineral mixture, fish oil, calcium. It’s 11.2% protein on a dry matter basis. The foods come in trays, probably similar in texture to a canned food, and are made using human-grade ingredients. I have no idea what the prices are (not cheap, I’m sure), but if it’s something do-able for you it’d be something to talk to your vet about. I’m not sure if you have your dog on a support supplement – but Standard Process has some good supplements that are available through veterinarians only. They have a “Canine Hepatic Support” supplement that utilizes herbs and glandulars that are known to support the liver. Just some more things to think about.
All right…at this point, this post might belong in the supplements area…but it is due to this thread, so staying here. I blame all of you for the $100+ order I just made at Swansonvitamins. OK, mostly for me but also for Wilson…I ended up choosing to go with:
Probiotic: Swanson’s Dr. Langer’s Probiotic. Since it was Buy One Get One, that is a bottle for Wilson and a bottle for me to try.
Enzymes for Wilson: NOW Foods Optimal Digestive System. A human “serving” is 2 capsules (per meal), but Wilson will probably get 1 per meal. I also ordered the NOW Foods Plant Enzymes. It would also be suitable for Wilson it looks like so we’ll be sharing these 2.
Omega 3 for Wilson: Carlson Salmon Oil softgels. Omega 3 for me but which would also work for Wilson: Carlson Elite Omega-3 Gems.
6 other items on my list, but all for me ;>
Thanks Sandy and Patty!
This class was mostly a joke, I’m so thankful it was only 2hrs long. I couldn’t even leave because Steve had dropped me off. When she started talking about alpha dogs, I wanted to be out of there. She never talked about raw foods but instead talked about cooked foods. Had Pitcairns (sp) books there so that was a good thing.
Someone brought up constipation in dogs and she mentioned chia seeds. She also mentioned psyllium but said some dogs don’t like the taste. I don’t know if you gals remember a couple weeks after we adopted Gemma, she was “stopped up”. I still don’t know if it was from eating a stone, from too much or too big bone in the Darwins she ate at the time or what. She has not had that problem again but it does take her awhile to poop. No straining but she does stand in the poop pose, for usually a couple minutes, before she goes. Stool is not hard, not soft, nicely formed. No idea what causes this but I wondered if the chia seed might be worth trying. She eats The Honest Kitchen’s Embark in the morning and Bravo Balance pre made raw in the afternoon. Gets various supplements and a dollop of pumpkin on top of her meals.
Thank you both Patty and Hound Dog Mom for your input. I recognize that RAW may be best but it seems intimidating and/or time consuming and/or expensive…and prepackaged/prepared *is* expensive. (Wilson weighs a little over his target weight of 62lbs…we’re currently at 66lb and going down slowly.)
So we do need to stick to dry kibble…at least for now.
I guess I’m leaning towards sticking with the bag of Earthborn Great Plains…at least to finish it…don’t know that I will buy it again. I do have some pumpkin I can add to his meals so I hope that will help with the alternate straining/soft movements. (Also, for what it’s worth, the Great Plains has a guaranteed protein of 34%…lower than the primitive at 38% yes, but much higher than the Fromm’s he was on (27% iirc).)
I will start looking at the options again to try to figure out which to try next. Also, I *am* open to using a topper…either freeze dried or canned. I suppose I just need to account for the calories, right? The rough calorie spot for Wilson’s kibble is 950-975 calories/day. He’s not extremely active…we do around a 1 mile walk daily and he doesn’t get all that many treats. On the Fromm’s, this target had him losing very slowly so I could cut it slightly a bit more, but I’m OK with the extra 5-6 lbs coming off slow.
I have been planning to add fish oil…or Omega 3…supplements. Am confused on amount…do I worry about the amount of epa/dha individually or combined? Example, one product I am looking at has a serving of 2 capsules. That serving contains 360 epa and 250 dha (with the two combined being 610). Is that enough for a dog his size or should I be looking to double that?
I had also been starting to look into Probiotics…HDM I see you listed several human probiotics…no problems with these? I had been looking at Nusentia’s Probiotic Miracle or NWC Naturals Total-biotics but the Swanson for example would be much less expensive.
sigh…apparently I can write novel like responses as well as original posts ;>
Hi texasniteowl –
You may want to get your boy on some supplements that will help his allergies – quercitin, nettle, burdock root and perilla leaf, omega 3’s, bromelain, papain and coconut oil are all supplements shown to help ease allergy symptoms. Aunt Jeni’s sells a supplement called “Enhance Allergy Aid” with vitamin c, burdock root, quercitin and biotin. Vet’s Best sells a supplement called “Seasonal Allergy Support” with bioflavinoids, nettle leaf, vitamin c, perilla leaf and quercitin. You may want to consider purchasing one of these or a similar supplement and giving him some fish oil and coconut oil daily.
If your he is indeed allergic to your grass you should bathe him frequently in an herbal shampoo (avoid oatmeal-based shampoos) and have a foot soak ready to use after he’s been outdoors (you can make a solution using 1 gal. water, 1 c. hydrogen peroxide and 1-4 c. white vinegar or you can mix povidone iodine with water). Soak his feet every time he comes indoors so he’s not tracking the allergen through your house and vacuum frequently.
You should make sure his food is low in carbohydrates as high carbohydrate diets are “pro-inflammatory” and can worsen allergy symptoms. Your best bet, as Patty mentioned, would be a balanced raw diet. If that’s not possible a high protein canned or dehydrated food would be the next best option. If you must feed kibble keep it high protein. My top picks for kibble would be Orijen (38-40% protein), Nature’s Variety Instinct (35 – 42% protein), EVO (42-52% protein), Solid Gold’s Barking at the Moon (41% protein), Artemis Maximal (42% protein) Earthborn Primitive Natural (38% protein) or Wysong Epigen (60% protein). If you can at least top the kibble with balanced raw or a high quality canned or dehydrated food, this would be better than kibble alone.
Supplementing with probiotics is known to help allergies as well. I would recommend adding a high quality multi-strain probiotic to the food such as Mercola Probiotics, Garden of Life Primal Defense, Dr. Stephen Langer’s Ultimate 15 Strain Probiotic with FOS or Swanson’s Soil-Based Organisms. Probiotics may help firm up his stool as well. Some other ideas to help firm him up would be adding a spoonful of plain canned pumpkin to each meal and supplementing with digestive enzymes.
Remember it may take several weeks for things to clear up. Good luck!
My holistic vet told me to use the Ask Ariel probiotic because he has had several cats and dogs with diarrhea that did well with it. Brooklyn is really picky about supplements, and this is easy because I can just open the capsule and put it in her food.
http://www.askariel.com/product-p/81.htm
Hi JillMcN –
Please be aware that using a pre-mix will not necessarily ensure that your dog is getting all the nutrients it needs. There are a few pre-mixes available that meet AAFCO nutrient profiles when prepared per instructions (The Honest Kitchen’s Preference, U-Stew, Urban Wolf, See Spot Live Longer Dinner Mix), but many have no claim of meeting the AAFCO’s nutrient standards and many of these – like Sojo’s, for example – don’t appear to be conplete and balanced when prepared according to the instructions. These unbalanced pre-mixes would be fine to use intermittently, but to feed long term you would need to know what supplements to add in order to balance the recipe. So if you’re planning on using a pre-mix long term, please make sure it meets the AAFCO’s nutrient standards.
The recipe you posted actually appears to be quite balanced, only a few things that I’d tweak. I’d cut the liver from 8 oz. to 4 oz. and give 4 oz. of another organ (kidney, lungs, spleen, etc.) I’d add another whole food supplement (such as alfalfa or wheatgrass) in addition to the kelp. I’d also highly recommend rotating in red meat for the poultry 50% of the time – this will help balance the fats as poultry is high in polyunsaturated fats (particularly linoleic acid) while red meat is high in saturated fats and low in polyunsaturated fats. Red meat is also much higher in iron and many micronutrients than poultry. There are several books available that contain complete and balanced recipes that are AAFCO compliant. “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown is my favorite – the recipes are for raw food but could easily be converted to cooked by substituting muscle meat for any RMB’s and adding 800-1,000 mg. calcium per pound of meat.
If only the softest bones were removed and processed separately into mush… maybe. OK.
I’ll still remove all the bones this time and continue to add egg shell powder until I decide on which supplements should be added to the above.
Or could someone weigh in and tell me whether I should just get a pre-mix and add my own meat?
I won’t be feeding raw. Any advice is appreciated. Thanks.
Hi nectarmom –
I wouldn’t be too corncerned about your dogs eating grass. Canine herbalist Juliette de Baircli Levy says that dogs bring on deliberate internal cleaning by eating grass, the grass helps to expel bile, mucus and other impurities. It’s not a strange thing for a dog to be eating grass and it doesn’t ncessarily mean they’re trying to make themselves vomit. If this becomes an ongoing issue, often if you add cereal grasses to their diet the behavior will lessen or cease completely. You can grow your own with a sprouter or buy a grass kit (they sell some specifically for pets). You would take the fresh grass sprouts and mice them and mix with your dogs’ meal. You can also buy grass supplements – wheat grass, barley grass, kamut grass, etc. Cereal grasses rich sources of several nutrients including chlorophyll, enzymes, amino acids and various trace minerals. I include wheat grass in my dogs’ whole food supplement and I grow fresh grass for my cats to nibble on.
9 year old 75 pound dog’s lab work showed dilute urine specific gravity (1.007) and slightly high creatinine (1.7 vs. range of 0.5 – 1.6 mg/dL). Other kidney numbers were good. This dog often drinks a lot, leading to lower specific gravity. The vet suggested going to a Senior Food to get a bit less protein, so his kidneys have less work.
My dog is on Ziwipeak dyhydrated raw food (it’s not raw once dyhydrated) with “quality” protein and no grains etc. It’s pretty much all meat. He get’s 6 scoops per day, with fish oil and some other supplements (Missing Link and Sea Meal). I was focused on the percent protein (36%), but not on the total quantity. Doing the math it seems he’s been getting 122 gm protein per day!!
I now understand the guideline for older dogs is about 2 gms/ per kg (or about 1 gm/ pound), which is slightly more than for adult dogs. Based on this he should be getting about 75 gms/day.
I’m thinking rather than going to a commercial senior dog food with grains and other things, why not just give him less Ziwipeak and augment with vegetables? More so, as he seems allergic to meats other than venison. I was thinking of going down to 4 scoops (about 80 gm protein) per day, which is the recommended amount, and giving him vegetables such as pumpkin, sweet potato, or cauliflower or a combination to make sure he gets the same amount of food he is used to (he’s on the skinny side of normal)
Does that make sense? Other suggestions?
Hi HDM: Thanks for your response and all the research you’ve done. I’ve ordered Swanson Mobility one of the supplements on your list and it has boswellia in it. I’m also switching to Earthborn Holistic since its time for some rotation anyway. I can’t get into the Vet until the end of the month. We walk every nite but most of his discomfort seems to come after a trip to the doggie park but he enjoys it so much I hate to take it away from him.
