[HuskyMom9710]

I was feeding 4 health from tractor supply for 2years but I just switched to blue buffalo because my other dog was not doing great on the 4 health. I was and still am thinking about switching them to a grain free food, I have been going threw a lot of reviews on different brands but it is just making me more confused on what one to go for. They are pretty lazy dogs so would that high of a protein level be good for them?

Okay thank you I will look up some of those supplements. And I am sorry I originally worded it wrong, I knew that they just don’t all of a sudden develop hip dysplasia. I did contact her breeder when she was a year old and she informed me that her parents where not OFA certified. which I feel like they should have told me that while purchasing her.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi HuskyMom9710 –

First of all, if your dog is 4 years old she can’t develop hip dysplasia. Hip dysplasia is a developmental orthopedic disease that happens during puppyhood. If a dog is going to have hip dysplasia it will have it by the time it’s full grown – however, if the hip dysplasia is mild the dog may not show symptoms until later in life. There’s no foolproof way of preventing dysplasia but responsible breeding (only breeding dogs that have ofa or penn hip clearances), controlling calcium levels during growth, keeping the pup lean while it’s growing and not over exercising the dog while it’s growing can drastically decrease the odds that the dog will develop hip dysplasia.

What are you feeding your dog? A high-quality species-appropriate diet is the foundation of good health. Grains are inflammatory – so if your dog isn’t on a high protein, grain free diet currently I’d look into switching to one.

Supplementing with Omega 3’s (fish oil) can help with inflammation. Some other natural anti-inflammatories are turmeric, boswellia, yucca, bromelian and tart cherry. Digestive enzymes given on an empty stomach can help inflammation (like medizym). Glucosamine, chondroitin, msm and hydraulic acid can help to maintain and regrow deteriorating joint tissue and fluid.

Some supplements I’d recommend:
1) Wysong Arthegic for inflammation (sea cucumber, turmeric, boswellia, devil’s claw, yucca, ginger, red pepper, cetyl myristoleate) with Wysong’s Joint Complex for joint maintenance (contains collagen and msm).
2) Welly Tails Hip and Joint Rx (omega 3’s, tart cherry, glucosamine, chondroitin, msm, hydraulic acid, green lipped mussel).
3) Vet’s Best Advanced Hip and Joint for maintenance (glucosamine, chondroitin, msm, hydraulic acid) with Vet’s Best Muscle and Joint for inflammation (bromelian, boswellia, turmeric, yucca).
4) K9 Joint Strong (glucosamine, chondroitin, msm, turmeric, cetyl myristoleate) – also have a version with white willow for pain relief.

[HuskyMom9710]

Hi, I have a 4 year old husky who seems to be already developing some slight hip issues. She gets really stiff in the back end a lot of the time. also when we are petting her and if she is standing up her back legs tend to give out and she falls down.. (that part may just be from my wood floors, or maybe because she gets excited?). I am wondering what type of supplement would be best to try??? I have had this talk with my vet and she did not seem too concerned. I am just so scared of her developing hip dysplasia, (I know there is no way of preventing it.)

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi bella5255 –

If your dog is in the early stages of renal failure he shouldn’t need a reduced-protein diet. You don’t want to reduce the protein levels until the final stages of renal failure (when your dog is uremic – BUN is over 80 mg/dL, creatinine is over 4 mg/dL and the dogs is starting to show clinical symptoms of nitrogen buildup). The high quality protein provided by a homemade diet will not be hard on the kidneys in the way that low quality rendered proteins in most kibbles would be and is fine for dogs that have not yet become uremic – reducing the protein levels during the early stages of kidney failure will do more harm than good. I would just feed a standard balanced homemade diet and use very lean meats. Fish oil has has shown to help with kidney disease – because your dog has pancreatitis though, don’t give too much. Glandular supplements can help – Standard Process makes a great supplement called “Canine Renal Support.” Another supplement that I see recommended frequently for dogs with renal failure is “Vetri-Science Renal Essentials” – it contains vitamins, minerals, amino acids and herbs shown to be beneficial for dogs with renal failure. Here’s a link with some good info: http://dogaware.com/health/kidney.html (there’s even some sample homemade diets for dogs with kidney failure here).

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi dave and AngieH –

The difficult thing with colitis is that it can have many different causes and it can be acute or chronic. Dietary changes often can help ease the symptoms of colitis. Most dogs with colitis respond well to increased levels of dietary fiber and/or a hypoallergenic diet. Many dogs with colitis also seem to better tolerate foods that are lower in fat. When trying a new food make sure that you don’t feed anything else to your dog during the trial period (no treats!) and give the diet three to six weeks to see if there is improvement (remember, the improvement won’t be immediate and in some cases your dog’s diarrhea can even worsen in the initial stages of the switch as the dog is becoming accustomed to the new food).

For increasing the fiber level, rather then looking specifically for a high-fiber food, I would recommend just adding some canned pumpkin or psyllium to a high quality food. Both are high in fiber and will increase the overall fiber content of the food being fed.

For choosing a hypoallergenic diet you want to pick a food that has a protein source and carbohydrate source (if applicable) that your dog has never been exposed to. Making a homemade food is a great option here.

Two supplements I would definitely start immediately
1. Probiotics – these will help replenish the good bacteria in the dog’s digestive tract and keep pathenogenic bacteria in check.
2. Digestive Enzymes – These will give the dog a boost in digesting their food so the dog’s already stressed digestive system doesn’t have to work as hard at producing its own enzymes.

Some other supplements you may want to try that have proved successful for some dogs suffering from colitis:
1. L-glutamine – An amino acid that helps to repair the mucosal lining of the digestive tract.
2. Slippery Elm – An herb that helps to sooth the digestive tract and relieve inflammation.

I think in the case of colitis, that a high quality home-prepared diet would be best and most easily customizable to the dog’s individual needs. However, here are some commercial foods that are hypo-allergenic and lower in fat that may be worth considering:
1. The Honest Kitchen’s Zeal – Dehydrated, fish-based food, 9% fat on a dry-matter basis.
2. Grandma Lucy’s Pureformance Rabbit – Freeze-dried food, 15% fat on a dry-matter basis.
3. Nature’s Variety Instinct – Limited Ingredient dry foods are all under 20% fat on a dry-matter basis and include a turkey, duck and lamb variety.
4. Addiction’s Dry Foods – salmon-based, venison-based and lamb-based options, all around 13% fat on a dry-matter basis.
5. Addiction Dehydrated Foods – brush-tail, kangaroo, venison, lamb offerings, all around 9% fat on a dry-matter basis.
6. Addiction Canned Foods – brushtail, venison and salmon are only 10% fat on a dry-matter basis.
7. Great Life – Dry foods Buffalo Rx and Duck Rx are both 13% fat on a dry-matter basis.
8. Tiki Dog – canned food with some low fat hypoallergenic options.
9. California Natural Grain-Free – kangaroo, salmon, lamb and venison options, all 13% fat or less on a dry-matter basis.

*Some of the foods I recommended are a little low in protein for my taste, unfortunately when feeding a commercial food most of the foods that are lower in fat and that contain a novel protein also contain less overall meat and thus less protein – this is why I think homemade is the best option. If you are feeding one of the lower protein dehydrated or kibbled foods I’d highly recommend adding one of the recommended canned foods to boost the overall protein content. Also, this is not an exhaustive list – check out the foods Dr. Mike has reviewed on DFA and you’ll likely be able to find more – these are just some brands that first came to mind.

Good luck!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Dr. Mike –

This is a great question and I think it will make for a great discussion as everyone’s criteria are so different.

First off, in answering it for myself, I’m going to assume we’re looking for dry dog foods – otherwise I, obviously, would give preference to raw foods.

1) The first thing I look at it protein content. I won’t typically consider a food with under 35% protein – however if the food fell between 30% and 34% but had several other exemplary qualities I may make an exception (I would never go under 30% though).

2) I then look at fat content. I typically like dry foods with at least 15% fat (I feed much higher fat levels with raw, but dry foods are generally fairly low in fat).

3) I then look at ingredients. I always want a meat ingredient first – no exceptions. I prefer a fresh meat followed by at least one meat meal – but I would not rule out an otherwise good food if it only contains meat meals. Although there are some exceptions, I typically won’t feed a food that contains by-products. I never feed a food that contains any unnamed animal ingredients – such as animal fat, animal digest or animal by-products. I won’t feed foods with grains and look, instead, for foods that use potato, tapioca, legumes or pseudo-grains (or some combination of these) as a binder. Other ingredients that I look for and would not feed to my animals are: chemical preservative (such as BHA), menadione, artificial colorings, propylene glycol or any sort of sugar (sugar, molasses, honey, etc.). I also prefer to see a short list of added vitamins, minerals and amino acids – this tells me that much of the nutrition is derived from the ingredients in the food itself and there’s less reliance on synthetic supplements.

4) I then look at the company. I won’t rule out a company if it’s had recalls, but I do take into consideration how many recalls the company has had, how far apart they were and how the company handled the recalls. I like a company that is open about where they source their ingredients and that doesn’t source from China. I typically call or email the company’s customer service before feeding a food and if either a) I don’t get a response b) the customer service rep seems knowledgeable c) customer service is rude or d) I get the impression the company is giving me the run around when I ask a question – I will not feed the food.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Marie –

Welly Tails has some good supplements you might want to check out. They have a powdered joint supplement which I have used on my dogs in the past and liked – it has glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM, green lipped mussel, hydraulic acid, tart cherry and omega 3’s. They also have another supplement (haven’t used this one) called senior dog vitality which has glucosamine, msm, hydraulic acid, green lipped mussel, omega 3’s, digestive enzymes and 6 strains of probiotics. I’m also a big fan of Wysong’s joint supplements – they’re sold for people but can be used for dogs too and come in powder filled capsules, you can just open it up and sprinkle it on the food. They have one called Arthegic that helps inflammation, it has boswellia, sea cucumber, turmeric, ginger, devil’s claw, yucca, red pepper and cetyl myristoleate. Their other supplement is called Joint Complex and supports the joints, cartilage and connective tissue, it contains proteoglycans, glycosaminoglycans and MSM. I think for a dog with severe arthritis the Arthegic and Joint Complex would be very effective if used together.

[InkedMarie]

As some of you know, we adopted a 9yr old sheltie on Saturday. She has no teeth and has been eating Grandma Lucy’s PureFormance chicken since she got here. She loves it, thankfully! Since day one, I have been giving her Mercola’s probiotics and digestive enzymes. She was on amoxicillin but got the last one yesterday morning.
These are the other supplements my other two get, in addition to the Mercola products:

apple cider vinegar
salmon oil (I use one by Vital Choice)
coconut oil (one of them gets this)
Bug Off Garlic

Her coat is disgustingly dry: the dandruff just flakes off & rains down to the floor. She is scheduled for a bath on Monday February 4th (or whatever that Monday is). What is best to use, internally, for her coat? Both the salmon and coconut oil? If yes, both daily?
Her poops are pretty soft, which I assume is from the dehydrated food. Should I add some pumpkin to her meals? With every meal? I don’t know if I should attempt to add in a dry food or not, with her having no teeth.
I think she has some hip problems. She’ll be ten in June so can use some type of a joint supplement. Any suggestions for one that is powder or liquid? No teeth, don’t want her to attempt to chew something.
She does have an appt at the holistic vets in three weeks. She has a little hair loss on her eyelids, that and the icky coat have me wondering if she has a thyroid issue but she seems to be at a good weight.
Also, when should I start adding more stuff in? I started putting the Mercola stuff in on Sunday morning.
thanks all!

[Mom2Cavs]

First, let me say that I’m not a vet. But, I would suggest a visit to your vet to determine the type of crystals and to see if there is an infection present. There are different types of crystals and treatments vary. Struvite crystals seem to form if there is an infection, but Oxalate crystals are a different matter. There are also other types. One thing is certain, though, and that a dog that is prone to uti’s or crytals needs lots of moisture in the diet. Moisture is actually good in any animal’s diet, imho. If I were you, after speaking to my vet, I would check into 4-5 star, high quality foods. Whether you feed all canned, regular raw or freeze dried raw that’s been rehydrated, or kibble topped with wet food of sime kind (either of the above mentioned or wholesome people food) moisture is necessary to help flush out the kidneys. If you feed only kibble, then I would still add water or no-sodium/low-sodium broth to it. There are also supplements that might help with urinary issues like cranberry, vit. C, omega 3’s etc. Again, I would ask your vet for recommendations. There are also regular posters here that have had dogs with kidney issues from birth that may post with some great suggestions. Good luck to you and I hope this helps!

[marmaduke]

Ok, did some research and I do beleive that the lack of digestive enzymes is probably the main cause of the gas and stool munching. 😛 I have seen some undigested “slop” in their stools as well, which leads me to beleive that they are not processing their food completely.

I have sourced some green tripe from a local butcher who kills beef…I can purchase 20lbs for $10…I cannot find how much to give them per feeding though…the only thing I have been able to find is an approximation of 5-10% of their protein weight per serving. Any thoughts or suggestion on how much green tripe to feed them? Also, is there any trick to preparing the tripe?

There are a couple of products on the market that I have found that are enzyme supplements…Dr. Mercola Digestive Enzymes and another is Prozyme All Natural Enzyme Suupplement. The 1st seems like it is more animal based (Betaine HCl, Ox Bile Extract, Bromelain (pineapple), Papain (papaya), Pancreatin which includes Protease, Mylase and Lipase) and the 2nd is plant based looking at the ingredients (Lactose, Aspergillus oryzae fermentation product dehydrated, Aspergillus niger fermentation product, dehydrated, pineapples (stem,fruit).

We do include Pineapple in their “slop” mixture, but I guess it does not fully constitute the lack of digestive enzymes that they need.

Thoughts?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi astroweeks –

I know that for a dog with SBS you want to make the digestion process as efficient as possible so adding a high quality digestive enzyme supplement and multi-strain probiotic supplement would be a good idea. I would also add some unfiltered apple cider vinegar – vinegar is an acid and will help the food to breakdown easier in the stomach. I’ve also read that fiber can help SBS dogs by slowing down the digestion process – so maybe some canned pumpkin would help. I’m not sure if you’re giving him any nutritional supplements, but depending on how bad his digestion is you may want to talk to your vet about adding additional vitamins, minerals and essential fatty acids to ensure he’s not becoming malnourished. If possible, I would also look into getting him on a higher quality food that’s higher in fat and more calorie-dense to help him put on some weight. I haven’t read a whole lot about SBS so, unfortunately, that’s about all the help I can give you. Maybe someone else will chime in with some more suggestions.

[twinrescuemom]

Hi all,
I need some help. My 8ish year old miniature pinscher’s skin is an absolute mess. On the recommendations of many, many people, I decided to switch her over to a grain free diet back in November. I chose Castor & Pollux’s grain free because it came in small bites and also rated 5 stars. After about a week or two of eating this food, I noticed that she was starting to have some hair loss on her legs and also seemed to be developing dandruff. It progressed to hair loss on her ears, between her eyes, and now her belly. Not significant hair loss, mind you, but definitely thinner. The dandruff is horrendous and she actually has scabs on her ears and legs. At first I thought it was an allergy to something in the food, so I switched her over to Taste of the Wild, which my other 3 large dogs eat. It didn’t seem to help. I took her to the vet two weeks ago for the skin issue (and for antibiotics for a bite from my other dog, but that’s another story). The vet didn’t think it was allergy related. Naturally he wanted to do upwards of $200 worth of testing to determine what it was. I’m sorry, but I just don’t have that kind of money. I love my dogs, but I also have children to feed and clothe! I agreed to a skin scraping, but that yielded no results. As the vet put it, “there were no mites found.” Which apparently does not mean it’s not sarcoptic mange. He wanted to treat her anyway, because frankly I just don’t have the money to do half a dozen other tests. I decided to hold off on mange treatment for several reasons: 1)none of my other dogs have any signs 2)my children and I don’t have any signs and 3)it’s not gotten worse, it’s unchanged in the last several weeks and I’ve seen sarcoptic mange before, I know that would get worse. I did have another dog with an unknown skin issue back in October. My long hair greyhound mix had random spots of what looked almost like bug bites and also had random patches of dandruff. After a week and a half of antibiotics, her skin completely cleared up. This is another reason why I don’t think my min pin has mange. My vet also suggested ringworm (an $85 test!) but I’m on the same page as the mange. There are no other symptoms on any of the living beings in my house. I still feel firmly that it’s either an allergy to something in her food or it’s some sort of deficiency in her diet. She’s been on Clavamox for 10 days now and while her skin hasn’t gotten any better, it also hasn’t gotten worse. I’m very leery of just loading her up with meds and hoping they work (like the vet wants to do with the ivermectin). She’s never had a very good digestive system and I really don’t want to make her sick from medications. If anyone has any thoughts, ideas, suggestions, I would greatly appreciate it! I’ve started researching supplements, I really think that’s going to be what I try next. What are the best supplements for skin? Thank you all for your help in advance!

[InkedMarie]

I will give you some advice as it pertains to one of my dogs. I did not do allergy testing but an online friend gave me a list of ingredients to avoid: chicken, corn, wheat, soy, rice and flax. I have since found that Boone does fine with flax but cannot have yeast. He has done the best with a grain and potato free foods. Beef can be a common allergen, I have read. On this forum, go to the dog food ingredients board and the stickie at the top has the list of those foods.
Boone does best with fish and turkey foods. He eats a pre made raw in the morning and some of that is beef and he has no issue with it. His pre made is also turkey and duck. He eats Brothers Allergy, which has chicken liver & chicken at but is doing great on this food.
Something to keep in mind. You have to be mindful of every morsel your dog eats. That means treats as well. If you feed him a grain free food, feed him grainfree treats. Scour that ingredients list. Also, you wouldn’t think about it but supplements as well. Mixed tocopherols can be soy so the salmon oil I give him is just that, salmon oil (it’s a liquid). I once gave him a salmon oil capsule that had soy as a secondary ingredient. We use Bug Off Garlic for the insects and we cannot use the chewables because there is yeast in it.
I advise trying a few different foods, by different makers. I like doing that because you never know if a food will become unavailable or you see a sale on another one he can have. Hope I’ve been of help!

[pugmomsandy]

jnite,

Natures Variety Instinct Raw Boost is a convenient freeze-dried powder supplement you can add to food and it has 8% fiber.

http://www.instinctpetfood.com/instinct-raw-boost-healthy-supplements-pets

[Hound Dog Mom]

That’s the same way I feel and why I personally choose to make everything from scratch. I’m picky about what my dogs eat and every food or supplement out there there’s either something in it that I don’t want there or something that I wish was there that isn’t. By making my own food and supplements I can completely customize everything.

[shelties mom]

HDM,
Thank you for sharing your recipe. This is what I’ve been looking for and will order the supplements from the site you posted. I’m excited to do it on my own as I believe I will have a better control of the quality of ingredients I put in the food.

[shelties mom]

pugmomsandy:

I’m interested in using Dr. Becker’s recipes, do you follow her supplement recomendation? Which green & glandular supplements do you use? I prefer to use whole food supplements.

[awatson48169]

Hi! We have an eight year old greyhound. He’s been eating Taste of the Wild Salmon and loves it. We’re happy with it too because it seems like to has good nutritional value for the price.

Recently, he’s been having some issues with digestion. The vet recommended putting him on Hill’s Prescription Diet, but before we switch to that we’ve started adding a fiber supplement to his food:

Ingredients: Organic Maitake, Organic Shitake, Organic Lion’s Mane, Organic Beech, Organic Turkey Tail, Organic Oyster, Vitamins B1, B12, C + D; Polysaccharides, Triterpenes, Natural Enzymes, Prebiotics, Dietary Fiber

Does anyone have any thoughts on this supplement? It’s made in the USA and it seems like others are getting good results, but we’re curious if anyone has any insight into the ingredients. Also, if you have any other fiber supplements you use, we’d like to hear about them.

Thanks!

[Toxed2loss]

Hey Labman,
You didn’t say what you were feeding, in your post above. Not sure if you’ve posted that somewhere else on the site, but it is important. Your dog’s food is the foundation of her health.

Back before I knew better, I fed really bad dog food to my beloved pointer cross, Morgan. Ol’ Roy, I’m ashamed to say. I was just flat out ignorant!! When she was 12 she slept most of the time, she barely moved, just like yours. Well, my husband decided he needed a new bird dog, so he went out and bought a highly trained purebred, 3 yr old field registered pointer. The owner had health issues and he made it a condition of the sale to feed “high quality” food. Well, he knew more than us, but not as much as he should of, too. He was feeding Iams lamb & rice. A whole lot better than Ol’ Roy!!! So we put both dogs on the better food. Dang!!!! But after a few weeks that dog got up one day and followed my husband 1/4 mile out to the back fence. He turned around and saw her there, wagging her tail and was so worried he carried her (60 lbs) in his arms all the way back to the house. She was lively and healthier for 2-3 more years.

Fast forward to what I know now, feeding your dog THE BEST nutrition makes all the difference! (That’s not Iams!) its balanced raw. If you don’t want to, or can’t, feed raw, then a 5 star meat based kibble. Brother’s Complete is my best pick of kibbles. Hound Dog Mom has posted a lot of recipes and information on raw feeding under that thread, and I’d encourage you to check it out if raw is the way you’d like to go. Shawna is the best resource for nutritional information. Mike P & JohnandChristo rock for feeding kibble plus toppers! Dogs should be living 20-30 years. They were 80 years ago. But that was when they weren’t being feed corn & wheat based dog food. They also weren’t routinely exposed to toxins from flea & tick pesticides, worm pesticides, heavy metals poisoning in vaccines and being over vaccinated… Reducing the environmental toxins will improve your pups health, too! Supplements are just supplements. They can help a little, but they work best synergistically with optimal nutrition.

[weimlove]

Sandy,
I found a couple of good sights for freeze dried tripe, one of them is http://www.bellaspainrelief.com/ and the other is http://www.aplaceforpaws.com/ On both of these sites have freeze dried tripe. You can get 5 oz for about $9.00, which isnt too bad. To ship to Fl it is about 13.00 which is ok as well. Until I can find some local tripe, I will probably order some of the freeze dried. I will probably just add a couple of pieces to maybe one meal a day. I’ve found a great butcher for meat, bones, and organs, but I will definintly look for a mexican or asain market. I think theres one in my town, I will just have to look up the address. Yeah, we have one more week left of his Acana kibble food, then we will be transitioning to raw. I cant wait, it will be cheaper plus so much better for my weimaraner. It’s a little confusing/overwhelming at first trying to figure out the ratios and which supplements and veggies to give, but im sure once I get started it will be easy!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Lab man –

I’m so sorry to hear about your dog, it’s not fun watching your best friend be in pain. I’m a little confused about your post though – you say she’s old and can’t stand on three legs, but that she doesn’t have hip dysplasia and isn’t in pain? I’m going to assume you made a typo and are looking for a joint supplement, otherwise I’m not really sure what you’re looking for.

For a senior dog experiencing arthritis I would recommend a supplement to maintain and rebuild the joints, a pain reliever and an anti-inflammatory.

I think Wysong has the most well-rounded joint supplements I’ve seen. Their “Joint Complex” has a blend of proteoglycans and glycosaminoglycans that will help to maintain joints, cartilage, tendons and connective tissue. Their “Arthegic” has several ingredients designed to moderate inflammation and pain including: boswellia serata, sea cucumber, turmeric, ginger, devil’s claw, yucca, red pepper and cetyl myristoleate. I have used both supplements myself and also on occasion for my senior dog. Personally if one of my dogs was experiencing severe arthritis issues I would put it on these two supplements or find other supplements with similar ingredients. Natural anti-inflammatories are a much safer option than steroids and NSAIDS that vets frequently prescribe – imo. They can be purchased here: http://www.wysonghealth.net/nsf-health-supplements.php.

I feel it would also be a good idea to start to give your dog a fish oil capsule every day – the omega 3’s in fish oil have an anti-inflammatory effect and the fish oil is a rich source of dha which senior dogs have difficulty producing.

[InkedMarie]

There is a semi local (in state but not around me) breeder of Dogues who also sells raw. Prey model raw people can buy their stuff but she also makes her own pre made. I think you have to just add supplements. I am going to seriously look into this because there is a good chance we will be adopting a sheltie very soon, going to meet two of them tomorrow at the foster home. I’d love to have all on raw but cannot afford to do so with Darwins.

[Anonymous]

One other side effect of Pepcid AC is that the dog stops throwing up randomly all over your house, too. I love my dogs very, very, very much, which is why I spend well over $100/month on 4.5 to 5 star recommended dog food and treats and chinese herbs and other natural supplements/products and also why I went to the vet as the last resort after trying numerous natural ways for almost two weeks including diet change. She has no side effects and I’m actually weaning her off of them (she is supposed to get 2 a day) after having given them to her for the past 3 days to see if the issue has been resolved. I’m 100% for all natural treatments for my pets, but sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and go the regular vet route so your pet (and sometimes you) can stop suffering. I really wish there was a holistic vet close that I could go to, but since there isn’t and although there are things I don’t like about this vet’s office and her staff, she has been excellent in diagnosing and treating different odd things I’ve brought in, so I do trust her, just not the meds so much that she prescribes. I actually have the Mercola’s digestive enzymes, so why I didn’t think to try that is odd, but my sleep schedule and stress levels have been off the charts lately, so maybe that’s why. I’m going to try it, though, as the next step the vet wanted to do was a thyroid test which costs $80.

[billhill]

I have a question about supplementing dry kibble. I’ve begun to supplement kibble, alternating things such as hardboiled eggs + greenbeans, canned kirkland cuts in gravy, canned unsalted sardines, etc. I understand the point that variation and addition of high quality protein are good. This also makes my puppies happy (2 yr old corgie/lab, 2 yr old beagle/walker hound).

In the 1970’s and 80’s, I learned about the phenomenon of protein “complementarity” in human diets, i.e. protein supplements and combinations from different sources (EXAMPLES: beans and rice in Mexican cuisine, rice and lentils in Indian cuisine). If a specific amino acid is low in one source, it can be balanced out by the proteins in another source. I’m no longer a strict vegetarian, but I can attest from personal experience that this works. I still love vegetarian food.

QUESTION 1: Does this work for dogs? Can adding eggs increase the benefit of other proteins in the doggie bowl?

QUESTION 2: Do dogs have a “preferential” metabolism that burns carbs before proteins? If so has inclusion of carbs been shown to reduce the benefit of proteins in the dogs’ diets?

QUESTION 3: How would I calculate the impact of adding dried egg white or canned sardines to the kibble of each of my roughly 30 lb dogs in terms of additional protein, protein as % weight. Each gets 1 cup of small bites kibble, twice a day.

Looking forward to informed opinions. Thanks.

Bill

[Hound Dog Mom]

The “fermentation” is just a method of creating the probiotics. If you’re supplementing with probiotics you don’t need a kibble with probiotics – I’d personally rather add my supplements separately rather than have then added so I can control the dose and I can pick the high quality supplements I want. If you continue the probiotics and enzymes after your dog is healthy, you certainly could continue to give them daily but I also think giving it a few times a week or daily in half the recommended dose would be fine for a healthy dog.

Happy new year to you too! And thanks, the dog in my picture is Gertie my 2 year old. 🙂

[crazy4cats]

Hi Hound Dog Mom-
Thanks again for your help. By the way, your dog is so cute with his hat on:) I will check in to suggested probiotics. I chose that one because it had all 3 in one. When feeding separately, I felt like I was giving more supplements than food! I’m glad you have heard of using DGL for dogs. I had never even heard of it, let alone for dogs. My next question is, if going to be giving probiotics long term, is it necessary to choose kibble that includes it? Also some kibble show fermented probiotics. Is this a better form of probiotics? Happy New Year!

[crazy4cats]

Hi All-
My dogs (lab/retriever mix) have been off and on antibiotics for the last year due to arriving with giardia. I had never even heard of it before. My first vet explained they would be carriers and never totally get rid of it after 3 treatments. After their next episode of green diarrhea, I went to new vet and he said that wasn’t true and we tried a stronger treatment of metronidazole and dewormer. He also suggested pre/probiotics, digestive enzymes and DGL. I was happy that he was trying something new. We have had 2 negative fecal tests so far. What a relief! He also recommended food change. I was using Kirkland. He liked raw best and suggested blue or nature’s variety. Wow! A vet that didn’t recommend science diet. So, anyway doing all of the above now. We have had a huge improvement in stools. Not perfect yet, but much better. I’m guessing after reading this website, it could take 6 months to totally recover from all the antibiotics they have taken and having parasites in their guts. My question is; is it safe to use these supplements long term? Will they become dependent on them? Also, wondering if anyone has heard of using DGL for dogs? Im using Vetri-probiotic BD right now. It has pre/pro and enzymes in it. I’m not sure about long term use.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi weimlove –

I’ve seen the Pet Kelp supplements and they look like good supplements, however you definitely still need to add vitamin e. If you look at the nutrient analysis of the Pet Kelp product there is only 1.65 i.u. vitamin e per tablespoon. The AAFCO minimum requirement for vitamin e is 50 i.u. per kilogram of food and ideally your dog should be getting between 100 and 300 i.u. per day. I split 800 i.u. between my 3 dogs daily, so they all get about 266 i.u. each per day. The other thing to keep in mind is that you will be supplementing with fish oil (high levels of omega 3’s) and vitamin e is used to metabolize omega 3’s, so if you don’t supplement with high levels of vitamin e while supplementing with omega 3 rich fish oil the body’s stores of vitamin e will eventually be depleted and the dog will develop a vitamin e deficiency. If you decide to go with the Pet Kelp supplement I would recommend picking out 1 or 2 other whole food supplements with ingredients other than kelp (some that I like are Nature’s Logic All Food Fortifier, Welly Tails Might Phytonutrients, Animal Essentials Organic Green Alternative, Aunt Jeni’s Enhance, etc.) and rotating to a new supplement every month or so, this way your dog can get some variety. I don’t believe flax is bad for healthy dogs, I occasionally give my dogs flax oil. There are positives and negatives to almost every food out there which is why rotating is key – if you rotate your dog is a lot less likely to suffer the negative consequences of any one ingredient because he won’t be exposed for long periods of time.

[theBCnut]

I can just throw in a pill and mine will eat it, but one of my whole food supplements also has alfalfa in it. I actually have horses too, so sometimes it’s a handful of alfalfa in the blender with other things as part of my homemade supplement. And at one point I was giving the dogs a horse joint supplement that is sprayed on alfalfa pellets.

[weimlove]

Sandy- thanks for posting that link, they have a lot of great supplements to add.

[oceandog]

Ok, I think I get it now. Of the proteins on those sites, I believe I can find Rabbit and fish treats, so they would be the best protein sources to choose, so he has treats too. Then after the trial of 2-3 months, add 1 and only 1 ingredient at a time and monitor.

I will look into the probiotic supplements as well. I did read the thread about detoxifying and I do understand the difficulties. I have celiac disease and am intolerant of dairy. So I have experienced the extreme discomfort these things cause. I avoid processed foods or pay the price. Short story.

As far as vaccines, I had Addisons dogs prior to Brody, so I didn’t vaccinate like most do. I do not plan on yearly vaccinations for Brody either. He has had his puppy shots and that is that. I suppose since he had had 1 shot already when I got him that could explain the chewing on his legs and feet.

For now, I will get in an order of rabbit or fish (so I can find treats) and give it some time and see what happens over the next few months. I do know my local pet store has some crunchy fish skin treats that he loves, so that maybe a good direction. Thank you again, I will keep updated with his progress.

He means the world to me, I lost my mother from cancer in July and 12 days later my Boston, Bosco. So Brody has literally put life in my life again. I want more than the best for him. His food budget is greater than my own!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi oceandog –

That’s great that you still feed your dog a meat based diet and are willing to feed raw even though you’re vegan, it must be tough to do! 🙂 While I completely respect vegetarians and vegans, I see too many that try to force their lifestyle on their dogs and cats and I personally don’t think it’s fair…

Hare-Today.com and Mypetcarnivore.com sell pre-ground mixes with muscle meat, bone and organs in the correct proportions – so you wouldn’t need to chop up any meat or anything, it comes looking just like a pre-made raw (it just doesn’t have the supplements or veggies). They have several novel protein sources. Hare Today sells goat, goose, llama, pheasant and quail and My Pet Carnivore sells alpaca, goat, muskrat and rabbit. I’d just recommend adding the supplements I listed in my previous post – vitamin e (a capsule for humans a couple times a week), fish oil (for omega 3’s), kelp & alfalfa (trace nutrients) and probiotics (to help strengthen his gut). I’d leave out any other ingredients and just keep it basic during the elimination trial so when you start re-introducing ingredients you can know what the issue is. Only feed one protein source and don’t give any treats.

[Devilbrad]

I’m pretty sure it at least has the fish oil. Thanks “mom”, I’ll look into those supplements.

[Hound Dog Mom]

That’s great that you found something she’ll eat! I bet it’s a lot healthier than dog food too. 🙂

If you find that the butcher doesn’t add any supplements (assuming the mix contains muscle meat, organ meat and bone) – I’d add a vitamin e supplement, fish oil for omega 3’s and a kelp/alfalfa blend.

[Devilbrad]

Well, I finally found something she will gobble up. A local butcher shop makes their own dog food from the cow and chicken leftovers (they alternate each week). It also has sweet potatos, carrots, peas, and some other veggies. 50/50 meat and veggies. $1.99/lb and Daisy won’t leave a single scrap. Don’t even have to clean her bowl anymore! LOL I now need to look into supplements, but I thought the butcher said they do add some. I’ll ask him next time I pick some up.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Shawna –

This is one supplement I use with all 8 forms of vitamin e (I’m actually using this one at the moment):

http://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-vitamin-e-tocotrienol-complex-60-liquid-vegetarian-capsules/?NttSR=1

I’ve also used the NOW Gamme E Complex with mixed tocopherols and tocotrienols:

http://www.nowfoods.com/Supplements/Products-by-Category/Vitamins/Vitamin-E/M012530.htm

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi weimlove –

If you check out my menus for my dogs on the “Suggested Raw Dog Food Menus” you’ll see how I utilize a pre-mix for breakfast three mornings per week. Just follow the directions the pre-mix package and use boneless meat. You could omit veggies and all supplements, but I would still add fish oil as most pre-mixes don’t have adequate omega 3’s in the mix. In the evening I just feed some RMB’s and a little muscle meat (like hearts or gizzards) and occasionally some livers.Remember the 80-10-10 ratio doesn’t have to be exact at every meal, just over the course of a week or so you want the dog’s overall diet to roughly equal 80-10-10. It’s called balance over time.

[Shawna]

In my opinion it is not the total amount of protein in a food but rather the quality of the protein (the bioavailibility — how much is used by the body and how much becomes waste (aka blood urea nitrogen)). Speaking as the owner of a dog born with kidney disease I know that high quality protein creates less nitrogen for her kidneys to have to filter (and thus less in the urine). And my dog with kidney disease actually eats a HIGH protein raw diet — ranging from 45 to 54% protein. In fact, I have 8 dogs all eating high quality kibble with raw and high protein canned toppers or exclusively high protein raw. I don’t have brown spots on my lawn — 8 dogs-high protein-no brown spots.

Additionally, they know that senior dogs actually need as much as 50% more protein than adult dogs as they are not as efficient at digesting their food.

I know you don’t want supplements but a trick used by those with dogs with kidney disease (and confirmed by science to work) is feeding probiotics and foods for those probiotics called prebiotics. This causes a “nitrogen trap” and routes some of the nitrogen in the blood through the colon instead of the kidneys. Gets pooped out instead of peed out.

[weimlove]

If I wanted to use a pre-mix for part of one of the two meals per day, and have the other meal with just raw meat, bones, organs, etc, how would that work? Would I still need to add supplements? And would I just add ground meat to the pre-mix, and then use the 80:10:10 and veggies for the other meal? Sorry, just trying to see all of my options.

[billdoe]

Currently feeding our two dogs (ages 5 1/2 and 6) a grain free diet rated at 24% protein. We are getting burn spots and I am considering switching to a lower protein (still high quality) brand that might help reduce burning by lowering nitrogen in the urine. Both dogs are in very good health, but are close to the age where we also want to consider moving to a senior formulation in conjunction with low protein (if available).

Any recommendations on brands or experience with this welcome.

PS – we do not want to go down the road of supplements. My research indicates no proof they work and no controlled scientific studies otherwise.

• This topic was modified 11 years, 4 months ago by billdoe.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Weimlove –

As long as your dog doesn’t have any issues with gluten, it’s probably fine. Most contain some sort of soy, rice or wheat derivative – it’s given in such a small quantity though that it shouldn’t cause any issues. The two vitamin e supplements I use most often – Vitacost Vitamin E and Tocotrienol Complex and NOW Advanced Gamma E Complex – both contain soy derivatives. I’m not a fan of soy, but they get such a small amount I don’t worry.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi weimlove –

I completely agree with everything Shawna said. Basically those that feed prey model raw with the 80/10/10 ratio are feeding an approximation of a prey animal – rarely does the dog’s entire diet consist of actual whole prey animals. You need to consider everything your dog isn’t getting from a homemade diet. A dog in the wild would eat everything – fur, skin, sinew, glands, organs, marrow, bone, flesh, some of the stomach contents, fat, etc. etc. – there is so much of this that’s just not available (or not always available) for us to feed to our animals. You can feed, say, 1 lb. turkey Necks, 12 oz. ground beef and 1.5 oz. Liver and 1.5 oz. kidney and that would be “balanced” in terms of having an appropriate calcium to phosphorus ratio and adequate amounts of organ meat – but a whole prey animal doesn’t consist of only turkey neck, lean ground beef, liver and kidney – there’s a lot of other stuff in there that your dog is missing out on. The other thing to consider is that commercially raised meats generally have lower concentrations of nutrients than wild game and contain much higher levels of omega 6 fatty acids and much lower levels of omega 3 fatty acids. Adding veggies and supplements can help fill in these nutritional gaps in our modern interpretation of the dog’s “ancestral diet.”

[weimlove]

HDM-
Thankyou so much for making that for me, it helps so much!I went to the local butcher yesterday and found some great prices. He has boneless beef chicken and turkey for .50 cents a pound. He also has chicken necks and backs for .60 cents a pound. He also carries whole chickens, chicken leg quarters, and a variety of organs. He does carry venison, but it’s 6 dollars a pound so thats a bit too much to spend on a regular basis. I think I will be able to get all the meat on the menu from him, but I plan on trying to find other sources of meat as well. I also looked on hare today, and they had alot of great meat too for ok prices. There is also a supplement store in town that I can get the vitamin E and alfalfa kelp mix. I already add salmon oil to his food now, so I can just put that on his raw food as well. Yesterday I was reading about the prey model raw diet, and they kept emphasizing that dogs dont need supplements and veggies if they are being fed the 80:10:10. What are your thoughts on that?

[Hound Dog Mom]

weimlove –

It’s great that Shadow loved the raw fish – but be careful about which types of fish you feed raw. Salmon, trout and steelhead that are caught in the Pacific can carry “salmon poisoning.” If you want to feed any of these types of fish from this region they should be frozen for a least 2 weeks to kill the parasite.

I make my own wholefood multivitamin/mineral. I order my ingredients from starwest-botanicals.com. I mix equal parts: kelp, alfalfa, spirulina, chlorella, bee pollen, turmeric and garlic powder. You can do this if you want or if you want to make it simpler you can just mix equal parts kelp and alfalfa and that should be plenty. I’d give a dog the size of yours about 1 1/2 tsp. per day. You’ll need to supplement with vitamin e, for a dog the size of yours I’d give 200 i.u. daily or 400 i.u. every other day. Any vitamin e for humans will do, but I order mine from vitacost – I use the “Vitamin E & Tocotrienol Complex” because it has all 4 tocopherols and all 4 tocotrienols (most vitamin e supplements just contain alpha tocopherol). For fish oil I’m currently using Iceland Pure Sardine & Anchovy blend and Carlson cod liver oil, but any quality fish oils will do (I like buying in liquid form so I can mix it in with the food, but you could certainly get capsules if your dog will eat them). This is optional, but I do give my dogs coconut oil every other day and a plant-based omega 3-6-9 on the opposite days as the coconut oil.

I’d love to make you a menu plan, but because I don’t know exactly which cuts of meat will be available to you it’ll be more like a “template”. I’ll give some options and just use what you can get. One of my dogs – Gertie – is an active 70 lb. 2 year old as well so I’ll give you measurements based on what I would feed her. Obviously metabolisms vary from dog to dog so if you find this is too much or too little food feel free to reduce or increase the amounts, just keep everything proportionate. I’m also not sure how many times a day you feed, but I’ll assume you feed two meals a day.

Breakfast:
-5 mornings per week feed 12 oz. boneless red muscle meat (beef, lamb, buffalo, etc. – can use lean ground, chunks, heart, tripe, or some combination of these). 2 mornings per week feed 6 oz. liver and 6 oz. of another organ or any combination of other organs (kidney, spleen, lungs, pancreas, brain, etc.)
-1/2 C. cooked & pureed vegetables (whichever vegetables you want, can add fruit a couple times per week).
-Optional: 1/4 C. cottage cheese, kefir, plain yogurt or goat’s milk (can do this every day or a few days a week)
-1 1/2 tsp. whole food supplement (like a kelp-alfalfa blend or my homemade blend)
-1 tsp. fish oil (alternate between a fish body oil and cod liver oil)
-Optional: 1/2 tsp. coconut oil or a plant-based omega oil (like flax or evening primrose)
-Once or twice a week: 1 tsp ground pumpkin seeds, pecans, almonds or sunflower seeds
-3/4 tsp. ground egg shell (cheap source of calcium, leave eggshells out to dry then put them through a coffee grinder the next day) or 600-750 mg. of a calcium supplement of your choice (if your butcher sells meat/bone grinds for large animals like beef you could certainly use these and omit the calcium, but most butchers don’t have the equipment to grind heavy bones, so the calcium will have to be added separately)
-200 i.u. vitamin e (or 400 i.u. every other day)

*You can feed this same meal for breakfast daily, just rotate in new protein sources, switch up the extras (cottage cheese, yogurt, nuts and seeds, etc.) and feed a variety of vegetables and fruits.

Dinner (I often alternate between these two dinners for my dogs):
-Chicken back or leg quarter
-8 oz. Gizzards or hearts or boneless chicken (ground or chunks)
-Whole egg with shell
OR
-2 Turkey necks (about 6 oz. each)
-8 oz. Turkey hearts or gizzards or boneless turkey (ground or chunks)

Remember the more variety you can feed the better! Feed as many different protein sources as you can, using as many types of organs as possible, different vegetables and different fats. Each meal doesn’t have to supply every possible vitamin and mineral your dog needs, but over time the diet should balance. So the more variety you can feed the wider variety of nutrients your dog will get.

[weimlove]

HDM-
I plan on switching completely to home made raw within the few weeks, I was wondering if you had the extra time, if you wouldnt mind making me up a one or two week menu plan so I can get a feel for what type and kind of meat, veggies, and supplements to purchase. If you dont have time, dont worry about it, but it seems like you are very passionate about feeding raw so I dont think you would mind. If you do decide to make a menu for me, keep in mind that Shadow is a 70 pound active two year old dog. Thank you so much!

[weimlove]

HDM-
i have talked to some local raw feeders, and they use a local butcher to get their meat. I plan on going up there tommorow to check out what they offer and the prices. I fed Shadow a peice of raw fish tonight to see if he would like it, and he gobbled it down! Yay! I think you are right about the pre-mix being pricey. I would be spending about 50 dollars a month just for the pre-mix. Thanks for all of your help. As far as supplements, where do you buy them from?

[Hound Dog Mom]

weimlove –

I would say that if you shop smart, homemade is without a doubt the cheapest route to go. I actually invested in some freezers – I bought one new and got two used off craig’s list – and order in bulk 300 lb. shipments. I get all my meat from a supplier that supplies grocery stores and restaurants, they’ll supply dog kennels too but have a 300 lb. minimum. For me it was worth it, my dog’s are large and eat a lot anyways so it really only takes me about 8 weeks to go through my 300 lb. order and the prices are so much cheaper than what I’d have to pay at the grocery store. If raw is something you really want to get into and continue it may be worth considering something like this – since you only have one dog you could even see if there’s someone else in your area interested in raw and you could go in on orders together to reach the minimum order quantity. I’m sure it’d be possible to find a wholesale distributor like this in most areas. Butchers are great too, if you can find an independently owned butcher (rather than a big chain grocery store) they’d probably be more willing to cater to your needs for certain cuts of meat as well – meaning you could probably get them to save things like kidneys, lungs, etc. etc. that usually get thrown out. Hare Today and My Pet Carnivore are two other great places to get supplies (they have very reasonable prices and shipping prices) – they sell whole ground animals and also hard to find items like certain organs and green tripe. In generally boneless meat costs a lot more than bone-in meat, which is what I think makes the pre-mixes pricey – you have to use all boneless meat then pay for the pre-mix on top of it. A final suggestion for keeping costs low would be that when you’re feeding boneless meat (you’ll have to feed some of course to balance out the phosphorus in the RMBs) go with things like gizzards, hearts and green tripe – I know these things sound a lot less desirable to a person but they’re quality protein for dogs and supply a lot more nutrients than things like boneless skinless chicken breast and extra lean ground beef and they’re way cheaper.

As for supplements to add, assuming you’re feeding a balanced mixture of 80% muscle meat, 10% organ meat and 10% bone I’d recommend adding vitamin e (200 i.u. or so a day or 400 i.u. every few days should be plenty for a dog the size of yours), greens (some variety of kelp, alfalfa, spirulina, etc. rotate if you want). I like to give cod liver oil every other day to ensure my dogs are getting enough vitamin d – use this sparingly though as most varieties have excessive levels of vitamin a, I use Carlson brand because it has the lowest amount of vitamin a and I give a sardine/anchovy oil blend on the opposite days that I give cod liver oil. Dairy is optional, I do find that it stretches out the food a bit though and cuts the cost and I like giving kefir a few times a week for probiotics. I think it’s beneficial to give ground nuts or seeds once or twice a week – every once in a while I just throw some pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds or pecans in the coffee grinder and give each dog about a tsp.

Concerning vegetables, many don’t feel that they’re necessary. Vegetables aren’t part of a dog’s natural diet and I do agree that as long as everything else I described above is provided that they probably aren’t necessary, but I do strongly feel that when they’re provided in small quantities they can be a beneficial addition to the dog’s diet. They provide a lot of antioxidants and with all the chemicals our dogs are exposed to in this day and age antioxidants can help the immune system a great deal. The important thing is that they need to be lightly cooked and pureed – dogs don’t produce the enzyme necessary to break down the cellulose in the cell walls of the plant matter, so cooking and pureeing in a sense “pre-digests” the veggies so that the dog can obtain the nutrients. I’d avoid any starchy vegetables (like potatoes and peas) and onion (toxic to dogs). Some of my favorites to use are are spinach, celery, carrots, kale, broccoli, collard greens, mustard greens, squash, pumpkin, etc. Fruit isn’t necessary either, but I think a small amount of berries or apple once or twice a week is healthy.

[weimlove]

HDM-
Over the past couple of days I have been reading alot of your menu plans. I am so impressed with the amount of knowledge you know about raw feeding. In your opinion, would it be cheaper to use THK preference and add ground meat, or simply go to the local butcher and buy my own meat, meat with bone, and organs? Right now I am spending atleast 80 dollars a month on a high quality kibble plus some wet food, so I am trying to stay in the price range (or hopefully lower!) If I do decide to make my own meals completely, I know I will need to add salmon oil,or something similar, plus vitamin e supplements. Is there any other supplements I will need to add? Also, is it necessary to add veggies, and if so what kind? Thanks for all of your help.

[Toxed2loss]

Hi Weimlove,
I’m in the don’t vaccinate catagory. My 16 yr old Pom, Sonya, is toxically injured from pesticide poisoning, like me. She used to get dis/parv every 3 years, before I knew better, & Rabies every 5. My 2 year old standard poodle, & service dog, Rosie, had one set of distemper/parvo at the breeders, the day before I got her. 4 days later she nearly died. When it was time or the next booster, I asked the vet to titer instead. She came back “protected for life.” They other thing we discovered, the toxins from her vaccines come out of her body and make me sick. Since the most toxic vac necessary in our area is the Rabies, I got a medical exemption for her, and for me. So we don’t do any. I also use natural substances for parasites & pests, no pesticides! I feed organic Raw, & Brother’s Complete, with supplements like probiotics, enzymes, astaxanthin, & detox caps, as needed. We have a non-toxic, fragrance free environment.

I support the rabies challenge fund.

[Jackie B]

It is difficult to transfer cats to wet food, but really it is better for them in the end. Male cats are prone to bladder stones and can get urinary tract obstructions, especially if they only eat dry food. My friend’s cat had to have surgery on his urethra– he was an all dry food cat. A circulating pet water fountain can encourage cats and dogs to drink more. Although it doesn’t help with supplements.