Sandy, marrow has a high level of fat but it also has other things that have protein in them and the bone itself has some protein in it. Darwin’s marrow bones are pretty well cleaned off but not completely cleaned off.
My one Chihuahua with intestinal allergies has mild Pancreatitis from the marrow bones. At least that is what the vet said it could very well be and Darwin’s also said it was more than likely the marrow bones since they told me the Raw turkey meals are 12% Protein and 6% Fat in a wet matter which Raw is and plus we have now been on the Raw for a solid month and no issues until the marrow bones so those who have dogs with intestinal issues just beware marrow bones are really high in fat.
NectarMom, I’m sorry to hear that.
That’s too bad NectarMom. Most dogs can tolerate very high levels of fat but they should be worked up to it slowly. Raw typically has much higher levels of fat than commercial food, so dogs should have their fat levels increased incrementally. Many raw meaty bones and recreational bones (especially marrow bones) are extremely high in fat and should be avoided until the dog is well acclimated to its new raw diet and higher levels of fat.
I don’t know which way to turn now. Should I keep her on Raw from Darwin’s and only that or find a kibble that she can tolerate? I am pretty sure it was the marrow bone because before that she was fine the whole month on Raw turkey meals. The vet has her on Cerenia and Metronidazole and said she should feel better in a couple of days and she did eat this morning 1/4 Darwins and then this afternoon I gave her about 10 pieces of Brothers Allergy kibble but I don’t know if I should give her anymore or just let her system relax and give her some in the morning. If I open a 1/2lb package of Darwins if I don’t use it all right then can I put it in a baggy and use it later that evening? I just hate that I did this to her 🙁
You couldn’t have known that this would happen, so try not to be so hard on yourself. Yes, you can open the package, use part, and store the rest in the fridge for later.
Sleep hasn’t been my friend this week o I’m not comprehending. If the marrow bones caused the issue, why would you need to stop feeding Darwin’s? Just stop the bones; am I missing something?
After pancreatitis, fat levels are a big factor in recurance.
That is what I am afraid of with Darwin’s if the fat level is indeed what HDM has stated then to continue feeding it to my dog would only put her life in danger. Darwin’s tells me the fat is not as high as HDM said but at the same time I trust HDM advice too so this is why I am confused on what to do. I won’t be feeding the marrow bones ever again but I am stumped on the Darwin’s?
If I were you, I would go to the butcher, get some chicken backs and necks, turkey necks, any muscle meat on sale, and start from there. It is much cheaper than Darwin’s, and you can see exactly what is going into your dogs meals. It’s also a lot easier to tweak.
Backs are high fat and she can’t do chicken. But the idea is good, getting something like HK Preference and making food from fresh turkey may be the best way to go.
Oh ok wow well that makes it very limited. I would definitely do turkey necks and wings. Another great place to order meat from is blue ridge beef. They have a great selection of meat for great prices
Hi NectarMom –
If Darwin’s telling you the fat levels aren’t what I told you then they’re likely trying to give you the “unconverted” fat levels. To obtain the true fat level it’s necessary to convert the fat to a dry matter basis (same goes for protein) – to get an accurate representation of the nutrient values this is especially crucial for foods with high levels of moisture (raw and canned). Darwin’s general analysis states that the food has 7% fat, but the food is 74% water (this means the fat levels are much higher they’re just diluted by the water). To calculate you first need to determine the percentage of dry matter, we’ll do this by subtracting the wet matter from 100%: 100% – 74% moisture = 26% dry matter (this means that for every 100 g. food you feed 74 g. are water and 26 g. are actual food, this is why the fat levels appear lower than what they actually are on the general analysis). Next, we divide the “as fed” fat level provided on the general anlysis by the percentage of dry matter we just calculated: 7% fat/26% dry matter = 0.26923. We now want to convert this value to a percentage: 0.26923 X 100% = ~27% fat. This is the only accurate way to truly compare fat levels because for example, the fat levels for kibble are practically on a dry matter basis. Kibble is generally only 10% moisture so if the fat level is, say, 15% on an as fed basis the “true” fat level is 17% (doesn’t change much). I hope all that makes sense.
My question is this – did Darwin’s tell you the fat levels I stated were higher that what the actual fat levels after you told them your dog got pancreatitis? They should have a general analysis with all the nutrient values on a dry matter basis and to try and fool you into believing what I told you is not accurate – especially after when you have a dog with pancreatitis – tells me they’re either 1) clueless or 2) trying to be deceptive in an attempt to sell food. I’m not a fan of Darwin’s customer service so neither would surprise me.
I’m going to have to agree with Patty – use a pre-mix and make your own food using extra lean ground turkey. Steve Brown has a great balancer powder that’s specifically designed to balance the fats in poultry (seespotlivelonger.com).
Please disregard any typos – I’m having to post from my phone as I’m getting the boot from
the forums when I try to use my laptop.
Here is a great article on pancreatitis http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2009/12/16/dont-let-this-organ-ruin-your-pets-life.aspx
Yes HDM Darwin’s did tell me that the fat levels were lower after we talked about my dogs Pancreatits issue. I am going to check out Steve Browns supplement and decide where to go from there.
Shelties Mom I give Mercola digestive enzymes at every meal and also probiotics and spirugreen superfood once a day. We started the Spirugreen 2 weeks ago and the Enzymes and probiotics about 3 months ago. I need a balance and possibly thinking of cooking the girls meat and adding in veggies but I know I need balance so I am out to search for that also. I have a product I ordered specifically for mixing with cooked or Raw mixture by Dr Jones and it is called Ultimate Canine Formula.
Thank you all. So far for the last 2 days she has had her Raw Darwin’s turkey meals and seems to be getting better but maybe thats because shes on Metronidazole. I am searching other avenues though.
If she is eating the Darwin’s turkey now and doing fine, she may be fine with it. This is the time frame when she should be most likely to relapse. I would still look for something lower fat to at least alternate with.
I sure hope so Patty. I was looking at the Steve Browns website and it does not mention anything about adding extra veggies or fruits to the mix. Do you just add Raw or cooked Turkey to it and that is it? How do you know how much to feed at each meal? I looked throughout the website and may have missed it somewhere.
All you need to add is meat and fish oil or tinned sardines. You can add extras (such as vegetables) but the extras are optional and should comprise no more than 20% of the meal. The volume would be similar to other raw foods – about 2% to 3% of the dog’s body weight.
Thank you!! I am going to give it a shot and a slow transition. I wrote to Steve and he answered back very quickly and was very helpful so I am off to shop. Steve recommended that I feed as low in fat protein as possible to my one chihuahua that has Panceratitis and he also recommended sardines ( in water) not oil once a week or fish oil. He said I can feed veggies and fruits and probably should with my Pancreatitis girl. turkey is what we have been feeding so I imagine he means all white lean turkey.
It doesn’t have to be all white as long as it is lean turkey, dark meat has different fats than white meat and they have important nutrients in them too.
Do you supplement with digestive enzymes? Enzyme supplements that include pancreatin, in some cases, is believed to help reduce the risk of acute pancreatitis or control chronic pancreatitis. Pancreatin is comprised of the amylase, lipase and protease produced by the pancreas. The idea is that adding supplemental pancreatin to the diet of a pancreatitis prone dog will lessen the stress on the dog’s pancreas. Another option would be a pancreas glandular – most glandulars are derived from bovine sources so I’m not sure if that would trigger a sensitivity (I know you’re trying to stick to turkey for the time being). Just some things to consider.
I have been using Mercola enzymes for approx 3 months now and it has pancreatin in it. If there is another brand that you might think is better or has more in it that she could use please feel free to post it.
For now we are sticking with Turkey but before the Pancreatitis issue I spoke to Darwin’s about mixing in Duck and I recall the girl on the phone from Darwin’s said Duck is lower in fat? I was talking to a co-worker about it and she ordered her yorkie the turkey and she said it made her yorkie very sick but I would bet she did not do a slow transition. I asked her about trying Duck because her dog was on a duck kibble and she said Duck was too high in fat from what she read up on the different proteins??
Also something I noticed more of is that since we switched to Raw my Chihuahua that had the Pancreatitis has been dropping fur like crazy, shes a black short coat chihuahua. Last time that happened my vet said it was due to her missing something in her diet and so that is when we started food searching, we were using Azmira back then.
Generally duck is considered a fattier fowl – but it depends on what cuts of meat are being used. In the case of Darwin’s, the duck formula has less fat than the turkey – 22% in the duck and 27% in the turkey (dry matter basis). The increased shedding is probably detox – many dogs detox when switching from kibble to raw and shedding can be a sign.
When we switched Micah, he lost his entire coat(not all at once) pretty quickly, but his new coat is so much better. His fur was dry and crunchy before, now it’s soft and shiny.
Yeah we went through this again with the Brothers Allergy Formula but just not as long. I only notice it on her because she is black. So everytime I switch brands or proteins my dogs will go through a detox period? Well if the duck is lower in fat then I may give it a try and do what Darwin’s said to do and mix the turkey in with it. I would honestly like to stick with Raw but if it causes my Pancreatic girl issues then we will have no option but to switch her to a leaner food but so far the last 2 days shes been fine on it but she still is not like she was before he marrow bones. If I have to do it myself then I will but I am mainly concerned with balance if I go that route.
Typically detox occurs when switching to a higher quality food – such as when switching from kibble (high carb, not species-appropriate) to balanced raw (low carb, species-appropriate).
Thanks HDM. Things are looking better today for my baby. Shes acting a bit normal and been eating the Darwin’s Raw twice a day with no issues so I am really sure now that it was the bone marrow.
I do have a question though. I bought some Sardines in a can of water and was wondering if it is ok to give her and the others a half of one of those without any issues? They did not seem to have too much fat in them but I don’t want to rock the boat anymore with my baby either? Everyone else can probably handle them but I don’t want to give them something without her getting something too…shes just a bit spoiled 🙂
We just took a goat to the butcher for the first time. I found it strange to explain how I wanted him processed, so I wonder what I’ll end up with. The good news is he doesn’t have any problem saving all the organs for me. I even told him I wanted brains and eyes. He didn’t even blink when I asked him if he could grind all the organs together. That way I can portion them easier. Portioning 70 lbs of various goat parts will be interesting since I need it in 1 lbs packages…
Are chicken feet fatty? I am still looking at something my girls can chew on and I thought of chicken feet but I don’t want the same thing to happen that happened with the marrow bones? Pancreatitisis an issue for my one chihuahua. I can also get dehydrated duck feet at a local chain store so are those an option too? They are not raw though.
I honestly don’t know. Skin is supposed to be fatty, so I would think that duck feet would be fattier than chicken feet. And they have some padding on their foot that may be fat. But I really don’t know.
Chicken feet are pretty high in fat.
I am going to order from My Pet Carnivore but I am wondering if I need to add any supplements to this meat orders? I want to feed all natural and lower fat and so they recommended Young beef chunks and so I added a few others to my order since these meats looked a bit lower in fat also. Does my shopping cart look ok for my Pancreatitis girl? Do I need to delete or add anything else from this company?? I need to order today so it will ship out Monday.
I am sorry for constant asking questions but I am such a newbie to feeding raw. Thank you very much 🙂
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Ok I played it safe and ordered the young beef chunks-10Lbs because it is lean and the green tripe 4Lbs because it is lean and we will go from there 🙂
I believe lamb and mutton are fattier meats (as well as water fowl). I ground a duck and a goose in my grinder and I had to back out the fat custard that was created! Yuk!
Mutton is a VERY fatty meat.
I agree with Sandy and Patty – I’d drop the lamb and mutton. While lamb is leaner than mutton, it’s typically still pretty high in fat. Bison or rabbit would be a good lean substitute. Sometimes MPC has “Bison Supermix” which is tripe and organs – my dogs love it.
As far as what to add, as long as the grinds contain meat/organ/bone I’d just suggest adding cod liver oil or tinned sardines a few days per week (omega 3’s and vitamin d), vitamin e, cooked/pureed vegetables and a whole food supplement (kelp, alfalfa, etc. – you can mix your own or buy a pre-mixed supplement). You can also add things like nuts, seeds, dairy, eggs, etc. a few days a week for some variety and added nutrients.
Ok Thanks a lot. I also ordered the Dinner mixes from Steve Brown, Seespotlivelonger and his book. I don’t think I will do the veggie thing but just add the beef with Steve’s mix for now and see how that goes. You gals have been a lot of help and I Thank you for your patience with me and my questions
I saw chicken feet at my grocery store this morning! I was grossed out and excited at the same time. LOL I know I’ve read here they are rich in glucosamine & chondroition, high in fat and perfect for smaller dogs.
Mine are 5-13 lbs. Do I give a whole one or half? How often should I give and can I freeze them?
The package had about 15 in it. Thanks.
Yes you can freeze them. I put mine in small bags 3 to a bag. Be sure to cut claws off before feeding. I’d start with 1/2 a foot and see how they react over a couple of days. Do your dogs normally eat mod-high fat foods? Have you tried just a small chicken wing? You can give a couple times a week for teeth cleaning after you’ve decided that they can handle it. And it’s good for making chicken stock. Recipes at eatmedaily(dot)com search for chicken feet.
Thanks, Sandy! They eat NV raw which is 12% fat and Bravo! Chicken – but I can’t remember the fat % in it. Along with Fromms, Earthborn, Wellness and such.
I did try a chic. wing one time and got scared that I never tried it again. I was just so nervous they would choke. I am getting the bigger raw bones at pet store next month when I go out of town.
I will feel safer w/ those. But the feet – I will let them try this wk. end and see how that goes.
If they’re already eating raw foods then they *should* be ok. Nectarmom had a bad experience with it just recently. Her girls have pancreatitis.
Great videos of Gertie!! 🙂 I’m thinking of beginning Mila on raw meaty/ recreational bones and I’m excited to see the health benefits they will give her. I have read and seen videos on the Primal website regarding the feeding of these bones but would like to ask more info if I could. Recreational bones are to fed 1-2 a week, how often should meaty bones be fed? How long should they be stored in the freezer, especially after the bag has been opened? I know Mila can eat the turkey necks or chicken backs that medium-large size dogs can eat but should I start her off on the chicken necks? Because she’s not used to having fatty food, will the fat have a negative effect on her stomach or is it good fat and won’t interfere? Do you feed the Primal bones or should I look at other companies as well? Which do you suggest? Thanks so much, I look forward to your reply! (:
The necks I buy are skinless and my small dogs did not have any problems with them from the start. Neither did they with marrow bones. I normally don’t feed them low fat foods so they are used to eating normal fat and canned food seems to have more fat too. Mine started eating raw with commercial products so it was even higher in fat than the kibble. Then I introduced RMB after about a year of commercial frozen patties. I would start out with small marrow bones though maybe 1 – 2 inches versus the 4 inch ones to start but I don’t think skinless necks would hurt. Are you already adding some fat to her diet with oils like fish or coconut?
Here’s the thread with pictures:
I have used coconut oil in the past and loved it but haven’t picked some up in awhile but do sprinkle some of the coconut chips in her food sometimes and also add yogurt. The freeze-dried raw I give her does have it. Where do u purchase the skinless meaty bones from? I was thinking of starting her off slowly anyway with the smaller marrow bone. I don’t mind adding more fat to her diet, she’s lean and muscular and has lost a few lbs from our nice long evening walks, so she could use it. A rewarding treat. 🙂
I’ve bought skinless turkey necks from Primal and I buy bulk duck necks from a local retailer by me. The grocery store has skinless necks too. I’ve seen them at Walmart and the health food store.
Oh, the ethnic grocery stores have skinless necks also.
Hi again, thanks for all the help! Do you use both coconut oil and fish oil or alternate the 2? Do you use krill oil? I had read and watched a video of Dr Becker educating about krill oil.
I use fish, salmon, or krill oil every day, and I use coconut about every other day, when I’m feeding a lower fat meat.
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