[anonymously]

Please check the search engine here for “struvite” “bladder stones” or click on my avatar and read my posts on this subject , this topic comes up about once a week.
However, I am not a veterinarian, so please check with your vet before making any changes to your dog’s treatment.
I wouldn’t mess with supplements, keep the diet simple.
There are prescription meds that your vet could subscribe after surgery if her condition is stubborn. I would ask about that.

Example: /forums/search/struvite/

There is NO magic supplement. The trick is to add water to each meal 3-4 small meals per day soaked in water, don’t measure, just fill the small bowl, the dog will lap it up to get to the food.
The dog must be taken out to void (pee) ideally every 2 hours during the day. At bedtime and first thing in the morning. Stagnant conditions in the bladder are conducive to stone formation.
There is nothing wrong with Royal Canin Urinary SO. If you get the dry, soak it in water overnight then add water too. Once the dog is stable, few months to a year, you can talk to your vet about adding something tasty to the prescription food, like cooked chopped up chicken breast or some other lean meat.

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?s=cranberry

Excerpts from previous posts:

As your vet will confirm, dogs that have a tendency to make bladder stones have to be on a special diet the rest of their lives, this is a serious condition and it just doesn’t go away.

I would comply with the prescription food for now.
And don’t forget, water, water, and more water added to the diet. Ask the vet ….but I believe this helps big time. And frequent bathroom breaks, opportunities to urinate.

“My dog had both (struvite and calcium oxalate), no symptoms till the age of 11, started with UTIs. He has had no recurrences in 4 years since his emergency surgery.
In fact, I just took him in for a geriatric workup and his lab work was good”.

“I was afraid the vet would want to do x-rays and test his urine…..but he said as long as he is not having symptoms we are not going there (he’s too old to tolerate another surgery)”
“I do monitor his urination habits and check for normal flow, stream, amount. If I note any discomfort I will take him to the vet”.

“There is a genetic component and some breeds are more prone to bladder stones.

“Anyway, if you do nothing else, add water and take her out to urinate frequently.
I went along with the prescription diet for almost a year, since then he has been on Nutrisca salmon and chickpea kibble soaked with water +, I use the wet food too”
PS: Soak the kibble, even the prescription food in water overnight in the fridg, add more water prior to serving. Keep the bladder flushed. Maybe add a little canned prescription food as a topper.

PS: If he is overweight or inactive, start taking her for daily walks, that helps too.

[Coonhound Mama]

Hi Jen T:

Good for you for taking the big step to homemade! I don’t think you will be disappointed 🙂 I would however recommend varying your recipe as much as your budget will allow with different proteins, meats, vegetables and fruits. I’m not seeing any bone meal in your recipes, either, which is crucial in providing calcium when feeding boneless meats. Off the top of my head I would definitely recommend adding bone meal, vitamin E, fish oil (or whole sardines) and a green superfood supplement such as spirulina or wheatgrass. You may want to add in a canine multivitamin just to cover any bases. A great resource for cooked homemade diets is Dr. Karen Becker’s Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats. It breaks everything down for you into manageable, complete and balanced recipes.

[alexis w]

from my research i have found that a lot of times what seems like a food allergy is actually a nutrient deficiency, have you thought about giving a good supplement with the homemade food? i see you were suggested to give a multivitamin. I have found Nupro All Natural Dog Food Supplement to be very high quality and it supplies calcium as well so you don’t have to worry as much about the amount of calcium you are adding to the diet. I actually feed a low carb, higher protein grain free diet to my pup and since I have started it she has stopped itching and licking. here is a link to my blog with some recipes and a link to the Nupro website at the bottom of each recipe: http://www.calliefoodrecipes.wordpress.com

[Pitlove]

Hi Heather-

How did you determine Wellness TruFood Puppy was safe for a large breed puppy? Have you looked at WellnessCORE Puppy? It is grain free and already determined safe for large breed puppies. I would certainly not follow the advice above to NOT read labels. That is silly. However, you do need to call the company and ask follow up questions to determine if a food meets the needs of your dog.

Here is a recommendation to a pet parent from Dr. Rebecca Remilliard DVM, ACVN for how to select a large breed puppy formula: “Having said that, most nutritionists would agree that about 1-1.5% calcium is not harmful and safe. Secondly you want to feed a lower fat or lowest kcal/cup ….. to help control the growth rate now and prevent obesity later. I would suggest you select the food with the lower kcal/cup (350-375 kcal/cup), lower fat and higher fiber, if the calcium is about the same on both products.”

[Pitlove]

Hi Sue-

Large breed puppies have much different dietary requirements than small and medium breeds. These dogs are at high risk for developmental orthopedic disorders caused by genetics, but also poor nutrition. It is important to watch calcium intake, so I would heed the suggestion to add too many toppers to the dry kibble during growth or use something like Trippett which has very low calcium and phosphorus.

The two companies that have done the most research in regards to large and giant breed nutrition and growth are Hill’s and Purina. A puppy food geared towards large breeds from one of those two companies would be a fine choice. However, I do understand that there are those who do not feel comfortable feeding diets from Hill’s and Purina. A few other LBP safe foods I can suggest that are from smaller companies are: NutriSource Large Breed Puppy, Fromm Gold Large Breed Puppy, Precise Holistic Complete Large & Giant Breed Puppy, Nulo Puppy, Solid Gold Wolf Cub, and Dr. Tim’s Kinesis. If you can order online, these are all available on chewy.com.

Another important thing to remember is not to overfeed, as excess weight puts strain on the developing joints and can also lead to orthopedic disorders. Shepherds are meant to be lean by breed standard, so it is best to keep them that way during growth and throughout life.

Edit: In regards to your question about Rachael Ray Nutrish. How does the other dog do on it? How is the stool quality? Does she get a clean bill of health from the vet? Does she enjoy eating the food? Your dog is the only one who can tell you how the food is working for her. The opinions of others are irrelevant.

[Cannoli]

I believe in a rotational diet this is what I feed my dog below on a weekly basis I aim to balance on a weekly basis when it comes to the nutrition components:

High end kibble 3 meals a week- Origen. Usually chicken flavor since I don’t feed raw poultry.

The rest of the days for the week I feed as follows:

Since my dog is 60lbs I feed 2lbs a day with 80% meat 15-20% bone and 5 % organ of the follows:

Raw hormone free grass fed bison- from grocery store or fom Real Raw Dog food online
Raw or lightly cooked hormone free Venison- from Hare today Gone tomorrow
raw or lightly cooked hormone free elk from haretoday gone tomorrow
Raw or lightly cooked hormone free organic beef- fom grocery stor
Grass fed hormone liver, kidneys, and thymus from grocery store- every meat meal
On weekends he gets 2 meals of fish. Fresh caught whole sardines, or fresh caught salmon with skin, or whole Mackeral. Always cooked and these fish have the highest concentrations of omegas 3. I never use fish pills. Fish pills are crap
Green tripe from real raw once a week

for each meat meal I rotate on a daily basis the calcium to get 15-20%. Either ground rib or pork bones, or calcium seaweed, or egg shells. Never neck bones as I fear hypothyroidism.

Also each none kibble meal I add the following organic supplements to the meat dishes. I never feed synthetic supplements:
Tumeric
spirulina
Organic virgin coconut oil-4x week
Kefir- every other week
Apple cider vinegar with the mother-3x a week
Organic egg 4 x a week
Fresh organic blueberry smoothie with kefir
Fresh ground organic ginger

• This reply was modified 10 years ago by Cannoli.
• This reply was modified 10 years ago by Cannoli.

[James S]

I have decided to transition to Solid Gold Wolf Cub. Solid Gold responded very candidly through Facebook messaging about the Diamond plant this is manufactured in. Sounds like there are a lot of checks and balances in place to assure a good product come out.

They did say teh FDA has lowered their calcium standard for dog food, and that is why Hundchen Flocken had to be reclassified as a Small to Medium breed Food. (Although they said it was find for my 50-60 lb (at maturity) Labradoodle, I do not want to take any chances as I had a Golden Retriever with hip displasia)

[donald f]

I can tell you from years of personal experience with a mini schnauzer who had calcium/oxalate (CaOx) stones, that if your dog has CaOx stones, you can completely eliminate them and prevent them by searching on the internet for the FuzzerFood diet created by Leslie Bean, and feeding it to your dog. It is a combination of home cooked, low oxalate food (typically chicken, broccoli and rice, and certain inexpensive supplements), easy to prepare in advance and even freeze individual meals. My holistic vet gave me an article out of the Whole Dog Journal that explained all. This protocol gave my Max many years of fun life after already having stones removed surgically by another vet. Going further, join the K9KidneyDiet yahoo group. Leslie posts on that frequently. It is a huge source of support and knowledge by people who live and breath canine chemistry. Its topic are limited to kidney/renal issues and bladder stone issues- both CaOx and struvite stones. I am happy to pdf a copy of the WDJ article to anyone whose dog has an issue with stones. oulalaw13@aol.com
Oh and BTW, the K9Kidney group is ultra critical about commercial “vet” sold foods purporting to be for dogs with stones, and recommends none for stone issues due to other chemicals in the food. Home cooking your dog’s food does take a little more work, but it is SOOO worth it for a dog with recurring stones.

[stones]

How do you leave a comment under the Zignature dry dog food?. I entered my comment (which I posted below)and then I click the login with facebook and it brings me to the Disque signup page. When I try to signup with Disque, it keeps giving me the message “there was an error submitting the form” If you’re having difficulty, try repeating the action on https://disqus.com. I get the same message when I try to sign up under https://disqus.com.

Maybe someone would post this under the zignature dry dog food for me.

Ziignature Zssentials is listed for “all life stages” but those of you who have puppies, especially large breed puppies might want to do some more research before feeding this food to your dog. Per Aignature, the 100% dry matter basis for calcium is 2.19% and the phosphorous is 1.29%.

Feeding high calcium diets with excess calcium is often blamed for contributing to bone problems in young, rapidly growing dogs. There does appear to be a link between the incidence of hypertrophic osteodystrophy (HOD), osteochondritis dissecans (OCD) and hip dysplasia, and overfeeding of calcium

I’m supprised this food is listed under the link for best dry puppy foods. People, please do your own research.

[Jen S]

I just went through this link (http://www.petmd.com/sites/default/files/bcs-dog.jpg) and she’s at about a 5. She has great waist definition, I can feel her ribs and spine running my hand along her. She has a very thin layer of fat. No saggy belly. She just got spayed about 2.5 weeks ago, so I’m guessing that will slow her metabolism. I just calculated her age in weeks and she’s 22 weeks, weighing about 42 lbs. For some reason I was thinking 2 lbs per week was good growth for puppies until about 6 months or so. I appreciate your help figuring out what to feed her. It can feel overwhelming trying to find the right fit; we’ve already tried a couple other foods until I stumbled across the Hound Dog Mom Google document outlining appropriate foods for large breed puppies. Neither of the ones we were using made the list. And as I was writing this, I just went back and checked the list and Primitive Naturals doesn’t make the cut either. 🙁 According to my calculations, the calcium content is 1.5:1 with phosphorus, so it’s definitely at the higher end of acceptable for large breed puppies. I can’t believe I goofed that – but I was reading so many different things the day I decided on Earthborn Holistics. Grrrrr….. I can’t waste the expensive bag I just bought, so we’ll finish it and then switch. Earthborn makes a Puppy Vantage, but it includes grains and a few more controversial ingredients. Oh the decisions. :/

[Marjorie M]

You are narrowing your search too far. Just research “dog diet for liver disease” or better yet, “low copper diet for dogs”. There are dog foods for dogs with liver issues.

Are you also supplementing periodically with a high quality vitamin B complex as well as E, K and C? Although it is risky to give zinc all of the time, it is a good binder for copper.

You can also provide turkey and chicken but NOT duck. We use hard boiled eggs which are put into a food processor (or blender) and ground up, shell and all because calcium is a good phosphorus binder and eggs are an excellent protein source. I also supplement magnesium for my kidney disease dog to balance the calcium.

[theBCnut]

First, I’ve only ever heard bad things about Blue Ridge. They use denaturants in their food, which are used to absorb toxins when the meat has been allowed to go bad. A good raw company should never be adding denaturants. Second, if there isn’t any bone, what are they using for a calcium source? This sounds terribly unbalanced. Finally, my JRT requires a minimum of 3% fiber and as much as 5%. How often is your dog going? When my girl gets constipated, I can always tell. She starts walking differently and holds her stomach muscles tight.

[C4D]

Hi Kevin K,

Are you feeding a balanced commercial raw diet? If not, unless you are very knowledgable on feeding a balanced raw diet and are following a recipe that has been put together by a vet nutritionist, or at the very least, by a qualified professional, you need to rethink feeding raw. Too much liver, which is very rich and nutrient dense, can cause loose stools. Too much bone, which is very high in calcium, and lack of correct fiber can cause a very small dry stool.

Raw food can be fed to a healthy animal, as long as there has been the proper adjustment period and that the diet is correctly formulated and nutritionally balanced. I do feed raw in my rotation of foods, but I use commercial raw food that’s complete and balanced. When feeding fresh cooked food, I use a commercial premix added to the meat. I have no problems with stools or any health issues with my dogs.

You might want to either put him back on a traditional diet to see if that corrects the issues and transition to the correct raw diet gradually. If the sypmtoms persist or worsen, you do need to see a vet soon.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 2 months ago by C4D.

[anonymously]

Check out Nutrisca Salmon and Chickpea at Chewy.com
My dog has a history of struvite and calcium oxalate stones and does well on it, no reoccurrence in bladder stones in almost 5 years now. I add water and offer frequent bathroom breaks/opportunities to urinate. Keep the bladder flushed.
I have also used prescription food recommended by the vet with good results.

Ingredients
Salmon, Menhaden Fish Meal, Peas, Chickpeas, Salmon Meal, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Sunflower Oil, Pea Fiber, Flaxseed, Calcium Carbonate, Salmon Oil (a source of DHA), Dicalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Dried Eggs, Natural Flavor, Tomato Pomace, Carrots, Cranberries, Apricots, Choline Chloride, Zinc Proteinate, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Iron Proteinate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Folic Acid, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Proteinate, Biotin, Selenium Yeast, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Rosemary Extract

[Jenn H]

I also keep my pups on LBP food until 18 mon. Another option is a food for all life stages. Just be sure to continue keeping calcium levels to 1.5% max.

After your dog has a meal try to make him chill out for about 1/2 hr. I have trained my dogs to chew on a marrow bones or Nylabone type chew toy. This allows the food time to digest (which prevents reflux), helps prevent torsion and cleans teeth.

If your Lab is anything like mine (and I guess all Labs) he probably inhales his food. Try a slow feeder. And add warmish water to kibble.

[Lisa O]

It simply means you are going to have a big dog lol! Nutritional requirements are based somewhat on the breed,,but more so on what the average optimal weight of that breed should be. Larger breeds usually reach their height around the 1 year mark and then may fill out a bit more throught second year. Stick to a good brand that does not have more calcium than is needed and optimum protein levels. If your dog is growing at fast rate, as mine did, feed three meals a day so that she gets a steady flow of nutrition and not overload her body, as I am sure she is pretty active and has high energy needs.
I now only feed Acana or Orijen to my dogs along with some homemade fresh food. The actual,best way to tell if you are over or underfeeding is by the body shape. They should not be rotund and you should be able to feel a bit of the ribs. Obviously, weighing her every few weeks is a tell tale sign. Hope this helps!

[Pitlove]

Hi David-

I responded to you on the other thread, but now that I see you have a Bulldog you definitely do not want to feed it EVO as it is an adult maintenance food and you have a dog whos breed is prone to hip dysplasia because of their stocky build. He should be fed an ALS or large breed puppy food with restricted calcium to help him grow slowly. This will reduce the risk of him developing hip dysplasia and any other developmental orthopedic disease.

[Jaclyn C]

Hello,

This is my first time posting so I apologize if I should have started a new thread. I have read many of these forums, but haven’t found anyone with a similiar case.

My Lhasa Apso is 13 years old. She has had 3 surgeries for bladder stones and despite following all instructions/diet from different vets her entire life, she has them for a 4th time.

The first surgery-stones were struvite and she was already on Urinary SO which wasn’t working. Six months later she had stones again even after continuing the Urinary SO and had to have another surgery. This time they were Calcium Oxalate. Vet said they never seen that happen before. The 3rd time it was Oxalate again and now I have no idea what type they will be, but I am concerned because the last surgery was really hard on her. Her liver level has always been elevated so the last time they couldn’t give her good pain meds so she was in so much pain after the surgery. I can’t stand to see her go through that again. She doesn’t have a UTI and has had the current stones for over a year. The vet said that they are extremely small, so just to keep an eye on them since my dog is acting normal with no crystals in her urine or UTI.

The Urinary SO seems to give my dog bad food allergies, but she has been on it all her life. It obviously hasn’t done anything to help her, but only make her overweight and itchy with dry skin. I have tried multiple vets, all telling me different things more like they are experimenting with her. At this point I am beyond fustrated and don’t know what to do. My dog has other health problems such as a bad cough which won’t go away as well as shaky legs with athritis. She seems happy and tries to play, but I feel like switching her food will help her lose weight which might help with the cough and strain on her legs. I have no clue what food to feed her because all the vets say the reduced calorie Urinary SO or another Urinary prescription diet to treat another type of stone. None of the vets seem to know what to do and and sometimes diagree with each other. Does anyone have any recommendations? At this point I feel like changing foods will help her more than hurt her. Thoughts?

Thank you in advance.

[crazy4cats]

Hi Deborah-
Sorry to hear about your dog’s condition. Is she currently eating the Rx food? If yes, I would caution you on feeding any supplements without clearing them with your vet. They could actually over acidify her pH causing calcium oxalate stones instead, which are even worse because they cannot be dissolved like the Struvite type.

Like you mentioned, water is of the utmost importance along with plenty of bathroom breaks to keep the urine diluted and the bladder clear. Also, after my ordeal with my cat, I started feeding three smaller meals per day to keep the pH level more even.

The Rx food not only helps lower the pH, it also has the proper amount of the magnesium. phosphate and calcium minerals to keep the crystals at bay. I’m assuming you are talking about feeding the kibble, not canned. If yes, have you asked the vet if you could at least supplement with a little canned or fresh foods safely to make the food more appetizing and healthy?

Does your pup have recurrent infections? I was led to believe most of the time crystals and/or stones are associated with uti’s in dogs. And once those are gone, the stones are gone.

There are some really good links on this site on this condition. I’m on my iPad now and don’t know how to post them. If you use the search bar and type Minnesota, you can find a great one from their university on bladder stones. Best wishes!

[C4D]

Hi Jim G,

It sounds like the food is not working for your dog. You’re breeder probably recommended Life’s Abundance because she get’s a percentage of sales. It’s sad, but true.

If her stools are normal on plain cooked chicken and rice, I would try another grain free food and slowly intoduce it to her. If that one doesn’t work, try another until you are getting the perfect stools again. Look through this forum for large breed puppy food. Since she’s a Lab, you need to feed her a Large Breed Puppy food so it has the correct calcium/phosphorus ratio.

[wendeyzee]

Hi Jenn, thank you for your reply, I wasn’t sure you would after my last comment. I am usually a lurker, I was compelled to say something of comfort to Stanley about his dog dying from cancer whom clearly was suffering the loss of his dog, that is when you chimed in to talk to me about your GSDs. I appreciated your knowledge, experience and friendliness so that is why I asked you to share about the foods you like.

My problem was the unsolicited advice about Pano! I happy to learn as much as I can about dog food, Medical advice I’ll go to my Vet, I mentioned the Pano in my post to you so you would know why I choose to lower the protein. I actually downloaded Hounddog moms list of LB puppy foods, and thanks to her I did a ton of research about the calcium which i hadn’t known before.

My boy Theo is 17 mos old, the Pano is long gone now, I keep him lean, his coat is shiny and soft, and he is really beginning to fill out from a skinny teenager to a well toned muscular adult.

I really appreciate you coming back to share about the foods you like some as well as your tips about what to look for.

Thank again, Wendey

[wendeyzee]

To Dogfoodie and Pitlove,

I am sure your you mean well but are either of you a Veterinarian? You both came on here to make it seem like I don”t know what the heck I’m talking about, thank you!! Both of you have stated “caused by excess nutrition well what do you think to high protein is? As for calcium i stated in my post I was really careful about that which i do not remember it having any correlation to Pano as in direct correlation to CHD. Now I will address excess nutrition, i have been reading these boards now at least since I got my pup maybe longer and i have researched many things said here as well as the Pano issue until my head will explode and my eyes bleed! I am here to be a good fur mom, I feed my pup the best i can afford short of making his food, he has never been OVER FED! My Vet whom I trust told me German Shepherds are prone to get Pano, the studies have stated that as well, and to change to a lower protein food which I did and it resolved!
I came in here to ask Miss Jenn what foods she likes as she also has GSDs, I did not ask for your advise about Pano, I went to the vet for that! Now I have said my piece and i will not further participate in this discussion.

[Shawna]

Hi Pittiemama,

Hopefully I can help you here. My puppy had kidney disease right from birth. It is believed her kidneys just weren’t able to develop (she was the sixth puppy, the runt, for a 12 pound Chihuahua / Boston Terrier mix). The breeder had to had feed her, due to a collapsing trachea, raw goats milk and egg whites to keep her alive. She had symptoms (excessive drinking and urine) at just six weeks of age. She was officially diagnosed at one year and given a year to live. She lived to eight years and seven months old and then passed for reasons not directly related to kd.

A little background on me, my father is a naturopath. I did consult with him when I got Audrey’s diagnosis but being raised by him, I was able to mostly formulate the plan of attack myself.

Audrey’s numbers, when she was diagnosed, were right around the same as your babies — and she lived almost seven more very very healthy and happy years. It could happen for your baby too.

The first thing I would suggest is to keep up on his dental health. You won’t want to use anesthesia for dental cleanings so RIGHT now start doing anything and everything you need to keep his teeth clean. It was actually bacteria likely from a dental infection that got into Audrey’s kidneys and ultimately took her life. Use fresh garlic in his meals. Use an enzyme supplement in his water, Dr. Melissa Shelton’s essential oil called Dog Breath is very effective and a drop can be added to his water dish or you can mix with water in a spray bottle and spray right on teeth. http://www.animaleo.info/dog-breath.html I would also recommend a product made by Green Pasture’s called Infused Coconut Oil. It’s high in vitamin K2 (which has been shown to have great benefit for teeth) and has other wonderful nutrients. All of my dogs get it but I found it when Audrey’s teeth were already needing some extra support. 🙁 http://www.greenpasture.org/public/Products/InfusedCoconutOil/index.cfm

I HIGHLY recommend Standard Process Canine Renal Support. It is a food based supplement that “feeds” the kidneys but also has a product called a protomorphogen (which is the RNA/DNA of the kidney cell) that helps prevent inflammation to the kidneys. It is the one supplement she never went without. I also used their SP Canine Hepatic Support when I thought she needed a little liver support — helps with allergies too. I also used their Cataplex B and C as water soluble vitamins may need to be added due to the large amounts being urinated out.

ONLY give filtered or other forms of “clean” water. I would avoid tap water at all cost. Lower sodium mineral waters with good amounts of calcium and magnesium have been shown to be beneficial for dogs with kd. I like Evian water because it is high in calcium bicarbonate. I didn’t give it all the time but made sure (at least in the beginning) to give it regularly — I got lax in the later years and I truly believe Audrey would still be with me if I had not. She was doing so well though and my life got busier..

I HIGHLY recommend getting some Garden of Life Primal Defense probiotic and Garden of Life Acacia Fiber supplements as well. These are used as “nitrogen traps” and as BUN begins to build up the bacteria consuming the fiber will cause some of the nitrogen to be routed through the bowels freeing up the kidneys from having to deal with them. I gave probiotic foods (like green tripe, fermented veggies etc) frequently but when I noticed she was feeling a little lethargic, depressed, not feeling well etc I assumed nitrogen was building up and I’d give her the probiotics and prebiotic for several days. Always worked like a charm. Will be quite important as the disease progresses and he starts getting symptoms. This also allows for a higher protein diet. The protein doesn’t damage the kidneys but it does, due to BUN, add to symptoms. Oh, I forgot to mention. Audrey ate a HIGH protein raw diet up until the last six to eight weeks of her life. Audrey never had a problem with phosphorus but as your puppies disease progresses you may have to watch the amount of phosphorus in the foods you are feeding. The golden rule is to limit phosphorus but it’s obviously not always necessary. That said, phosphorus can damage the kidneys if it gets too high in the blood so either monitor it or feed the right amounts of phos for the stage your pup is at. Right now while phosphorus isn’t as big an issue, I like the Honest Kitchen Brave. To that I would add a raw egg a few times per week and give Answer’s raw goat milk regularly as well. Both raw eggs (if not whipped etc) and raw milk can easily increase the “master antioxidant” in the body called glutathione. This will obviously help out everything. Later, when phos needs to be more restricted, you may not be able to give the whole egg (as the yolk is higher in phos).

Supplements —
1. Organic Turmeric is good as it is anti-inflammatory but it also is anti-fibrotic (prevents scar tissue). Audrey didn’t tolerate turmeric well so she didn’t get it but in general it would be quite helpful for a dog with KD.
2. Spirulina, chlorella and pumpkin seed oil are all high in chlorophyll and supplies lots of other nutrients. Dogs with KD can be at risk for anemia and chlorophyll is awesome for anemia.
3. Burdock root is a prebiotic and of the herb world is considered to be the “blood cleaner”.
4. Milk thistle helps spare glutathione and is a good detoxer.
5. Distilled water (given once in a while) and food grade activated charcoal are good detoxers too.
6. Copaiba essential oil is great for pains and inflammation plus more. A therapeutic grade, like Dr. Sheltons, is the only kind to use on pets. Can be given in food or rubbed into the skin over the kidneys as an example.
7. Braggs brand apple cider vinegar can help with indigestion or tummy issues. Audrey didn’t need it often but when she did I would mix it 50/50 with water and syringe feed it. She hated it but within seconds would burp and feel better.
8. Therapeutic grade peppermint oil, ginger extract or Dr. Shelton’s GI Joe essential oil work great for tummy issues as well. I got sick to my tummy and used the GI Joe to help. Kept me from vomiting and soothed my tummy.
9. Learn about essential oils if you don’t already know. If you have a Facebook account, join AnimalEO’s page and sign up for Dr. Shelton’s Friday Fun Facts. I didn’t know about them early enough to be much use with Audrey (specifically Dr. Shelton’s oils) but I sure wish I had.

DON’T do ANY more vaccinations – not even rabies if you can at all avoid. Audrey was legally exempted from having to get the rabies vaccine for life. She wasn’t protected either as she only got her first shot (at six months) before diagnosis was made. No heartworm, flea/tick or anything like that either.

I know there’s things I’m forgetting but hopefully this is enough to give you a good jumping off point.. 🙂 Hugs to you and your baby boy!!!!

• This reply was modified 10 years, 3 months ago by Shawna.

[El]

Hi Kelly P

I would recommend these 2 books as part of your research into feeding a properly balanced raw diet to your pup.

“Ok I have not yet gotten my puppy I have about 4 weeks still. She will grow up to be around 100lbs, so I’ll probably feed her about 2lbs a day.”

Here are the feeding guidelines from Primal, I think they are pretty accurate. Puppies need more than 2% of their body weight daily.

Feeding Percentages
1.5% Weight Loss
2.0% Non-Active
2.5% Maintain Weight **
3.0% Slight Weight Gain
3.5% Significant Weight Gain
4.0% Kittens/Puppies (8 weeks-1 year)
4.5-8.0% Kittens/Puppies (4-8 weeks)
4.0-8.0% Pregnant/Lactating

“We will be training too with treats so I need to be sure they level each other out. I have done a lot of research as I’ve been preparing for the past 1-2 years. What I found so far is the following.
Feeding anti-oxidants or some sort of cooked veggies is a good idea.”

I would puree the veggies. Cauliflower, broccoli, spinach in moderation, green beans, peas in moderation…

“Feeding organic eggs, shell and all, is good at least once a week. Egg shells provide a lot of calcium.”

I would suggest free-range organic eggs. I know that people feed finely ground egg shells as a calcium source, but I don’t know about feeding whole egg shells. I would do a little more research specifically on the calcium requirements of large breed puppies if I were you. She will be getting calcium from bones, egg shells, spinach and ?

Feeding a whole fish once a week is good because of the oil it provides, be sure not to feed tuna because of the high mercury levels. Cooked Tripe is great and so is a some coconut oil. I figure I can saute the veggies in coconut oil.

In general, I would feed small fish, they usually have softer bones and less toxic buildup. I would not cook the tripe. One of the benefits of feeding “Raw Green Tripe” are the enzymes, and any processing or cooking will destroy those enzymes.

“As far as percentages I have read a few different things but my research has come up with the below.
Version 1
75% Muscle/skin (i.e chicken breast)
10% Edible Bone
5% Liver
5% Non liver organs
5% Anti-oxidants/Veggies
Version 2
50% Meaty Bones
35% Muscle/Skin (i.e chicken breast)
5% Liver
5% Non liver organs
5% Anti-oxidants/Veggies”

I feed my dogs a homemade lightly cooked diet. Version one looks pretty good. Since I lightly cook my guys food I would replace the 10% edible bone with 5% more pureed veggies and 5% supplements to balance out the diet.

“My main questions are about bones.”

This is good because I see bones as the riskiest part of your diet plan and I would carefully consider both sides of the argument so that you can make the most informed choice possible. Also, regarding Wolves and bones, research has shown that larger pieces of bones are excreted from wolves wrapped in the fur of the animal they ate, maybe as a way of protecting their insides from the bone fragments.

Good Luck with the new addition to your family 😉

[Kelly P]

Ok I have not yet gotten my puppy I have about 4 weeks still. She will grow up to be around 100lbs, so I’ll probably feed her about 2lbs a day. We will be training too with treats so I need to be sure they level each other out. I have done a lot of research as I’ve been preparing for the past 1-2 years. What I found so far is the following.

Feeding anti-oxidants or some sort of cooked veggies is a good idea. Feeding organic eggs, shell and all, is good at least once a week. Egg shells provide a lot of calcium. Feeding a whole fish once a week is good because of the oil it provides, be sure not to feed tuna because of the high mercury levels. Cooked Tripe is great and so is a some coconut oil. I figure I can saute the veggies in coconut oil.

As far as percentages I have read a few different things but my research has come up with the below.

Version 1
75% Muscle/skin (i.e chicken breast)
10% Edible Bone
5% Liver
5% Non liver organs
5% Anti-oxidants/Veggies

Version 2
50% Meaty Bones
35% Muscle/Skin (i.e chicken breast)
5% Liver
5% Non liver organs
5% Anti-oxidants/Veggies

My main questions are about bones. I know you can’t just let the dog eat bones they have to get used to them so they actually chew them, else I’ll have to grind them up. But I’d prefer not to. Wolves don’t grind their bones up prior to eating.

I also am not entirely sure of what are good meaty bones, I know almost all bones in small animals are fine. Neck/tail bones of larger animals for the most part are fine. To stay away from basically legs as they’re denser. And an Edible bone should be something that is easily consumable.

What would be the best way to get my puppy acclimated to bones properly? Hand feeding is one I’ve found, but will I be able to trust my dog as she gets older and bigger? I don’t plan to leave her food out or anything but let’s say I put the food down and something comes that needs my attention for a bit. I’d like to think she’d be fine. I’m paranoid and want to do this right.

Also could I possibly be missing something at all?

Resources used
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijP_CVZUa5g&list=LLcG0oHG3mpprbGFFglrzVyg&index=2
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/raw-feeding-primer/
http://rawfeddogs.org/rawguide.html
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/04/01/raw-food-diet-part-1.aspx
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/04/01/raw-food-diet-part-2.aspx
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/04/01/raw-food-diet-part-3.aspx
http://www.dogster.com/forums/Raw_Food_Diet/thread/697247/1
And various other user forums and sites.

• This topic was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by Kelly P.

[Ksenia M]

Hi

I just recently emailed Taste of the Wild to ask them about certain ingredients listed in their dog food. I also have a large breed dog and inquired about their Calcium and phosphorus levels in their foods. They have the Kcal/Kg of each type of food on their website. You can use the calculator found on this website to calculate the ratios. See the email reply below.

Thank you for your inquiry.

Our bison, beef, roasted venison and buffalo originate or are sourced from suppliers in Montana, Colorado, Wyoming and Australia. Our lamb and lamb meal come from New Zealand and Australia.

Lamb meal is lamb that is cooked and ground to a fine consistency. We receive it as a dry ingredient. Egg product is cooked and dried whole eggs. Natural flavor is an ingredient that is applied to the outside of the kibble to enhance the flavor and acceptance of the dry pet food. It can be from vegetable or chicken sources (it does not contain MSG). Examples are parsley or other herbs and hydrolyzed proteins (processed so the average molecular weight of the protein is too small to be detected by the immune system which helps avoid adverse reactions in allergic pets, there is no intact protein from the chicken).

We also received your second email. The levels below are based on an as fed basis of a typical analysis of the formula.

Phosphorus Calcium
High Prairie Dog with Roasted Venison and Roasted Bison 0.9% 2.1%
Pacific Stream Dog with Smoked Salmon 1.5% 1.9%
Sierra Mountain Dog with Roasted Lamb 1.1% 1.6%
Wetlands Dog with Roasted Wild Fowl 1.1% 1.4%
Southwest Canyon Dog with Wild Boar 1.1% 1.9%
Pine Forest Dog with Venison and Legume 0.9% 1.4%
Appalachian Valley Dog with Venison and Garbanzo Beans 0.9% 1.8%

Sincerely,

Ivie
Product Specialist

I hope this helps anyone who feeds their dogs Taste of the Wild dog food. Not sure about the formatting, but the first percentage is phosphorus and the second percentage is calcium. Based on the calculator found on this website, the Roasted Wild Fowl has the optimal ratio.

[Pitlove]

Hi Ivan- Congratulations on your pup firstly. Malinois are absolutely stunning dogs.

Like GSD’s, Malinois’ are most often over 50lbs at max weight which means they are a large breed. Large breed puppies require a very strict diet and a food that is formulated to meet the needs of a growing LBP. This means, a food with controlled levels of calcium which will help the body grow slowly, reducing the risk of your pup developing devastating orthopedic disorders even later on in his/her life. Another thing to make sure of is that you do not overfeed too many calories. So no free feeding!

Here is a link to Dr. Susan Wynn’s site which you will find an article about Large Breed Puppy nutrition that you download to Word. Dr. Wynn is a very well respected veterinary nutritionist.

http://www.susanwynn.com/Literature.php

Also a link to the Hill’s website about LBP nutrition-

http://www.hillspet.com/en/us/dog-care/nutrition-feeding/special-diet-needs-of-large-breed-dogs

Some food suggestions to look into that are known to have safe levels of calcium are Fromm Gold Large Breed Puppy, NutriSource Large Breed Puppy, and Precise Holistic Complete Large & Giant Breed Puppy. There are a lot more out their including Royal Canin, Hill’s and Purina if you want to go that route- those I listed are just my personal favorites.

Edit: Oh you mentioned Taste of the Wild. Both their puppy formulas are formulated with safe calcium levels and would be fine for a large breed puppy.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by Pitlove.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by Pitlove.

[Jenn H]

DogFoodie good to know. Pitlove had me a little scared when she told me Diamond makes their food. Here I thought I finally found a great food w/ low calcium that Diamond didn’t have their grubby hands in.
After communicating with them I feel pretty confident in my decision again.
I’d still like to find another food for rotating in a few months, but it’s daunting looking for something w/ less than 1.5% calcium. Even large breed puppy foods have too much which blows my mind. Shouldn’t they know that’s too much?

[Jenn H]

I have an almost 7 month GSD puppy. He’s already in the mid 60s in weight.
Until he was 6 months old he had been getting Wellness Core Grain Free Puppy. It was a very good food. And I chose it because it was the best food with the least amount of calcium that was available at big box stores making it easy for my husband could pick it up when I needed him to.
(The other Wellness large breed puppy/all life stages foods have more calcium than the aforementioned.)
I like to rotate my dog’s foods every few months and had a hard time looking for food that met the same criteria and hopefully wasn’t grain free. (I prefer they not be limited to ingredients unless there’s a medical need.)
After much searching & contacting of companies (since they love to only list the min amt of calcium in the GA) I settled on Solid Gold Wolf Cub.
I highly recommend it! Gronk is finally satisfied after meals and I have to feed him half as much. (I actually feed 1/4-1/2 cup less than recommended to allow aome wiggle room for other things.) I thought for sure that would piss him off. I’m saving a bundle too!!!!
The other thing that happened often with his previous food was intermittent diarrhea. Even though the dogs get pumpkin every morning he still had soft/mushy/watery stools once in a while. Hasn’t happened once since the switch!
I’m definitely keeping this puppy food in the rotation. Hope to have the same results with the adult formulas.
Anyone obsessively looking for a good food for their large breed pup and can’t spend a fortune may want to check out Solid Gold Wolf Cub.
The company itself was also very quick & helpful in response to my questions. To me that’s a huge plus.

[anonymously]

I have been using this product (dry and canned) for 4 years now for 3 dogs (2 with issues)
with good results.

Nutrisca Salmon and Chickpea http://www.chewy.com/dog/dogswell-nutrisca-grain-free-salmon/dp/35033

Salmon, Menhaden Fish Meal, Peas, Chickpeas, Salmon Meal, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Sunflower Oil, Pea Fiber, Flaxseed, Calcium Carbonate, Salmon Oil (a source of DHA), Dicalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Dried Eggs, Natural Flavor, Tomato Pomace, Carrots, Cranberries, Apricots, Choline Chloride, Zinc Proteinate, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Iron Proteinate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Folic Acid, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Proteinate, Biotin, Selenium Yeast, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Rosemary Extract

PS: It looks like chewy carries the dog food you mentioned http://www.chewy.com/dog/victor-yukon-river-salmon-sweet/dp/120706

[anonymously]

Excerpts from previous posts:

As your vet will confirm, dogs that have a tendency to make bladder stones have to be on a special diet the rest of their lives, this is a serious condition and it just doesn’t go away.

I would comply with the prescription food for now.
And don’t forget, water, water, and more water added to the diet. Ask the vet ….but I believe this helps big time. And frequent bathroom breaks, opportunities to urinate.

“My dog had both (struvite and calcium oxalate), no symptoms till the age of 11, started with UTIs. He has had no recurrences in 4 years since his emergency surgery.
In fact, I just took him in for a geriatric workup and his lab work was good”.

“I was afraid the vet would want to do x-rays and test his urine…..but he said as long as he is not having symptoms we are not going there (he’s too old to tolerate another surgery)”
“I do monitor his urination habits and check for normal flow, stream, amount. If I note any discomfort I will take him to the vet”.

“There is a genetic component and some breeds are more prone to bladder stones.

“Anyway, if you do nothing else, add water and take her out to urinate frequently.
I went along with the prescription diet for almost a year, since then he has been on Nutrisca salmon and chickpea kibble soaked with water +, I use the wet food too”
PS: Soak the kibble, even the prescription food in water overnight in the fridg, add more water prior to serving. Keep the bladder flushed. Maybe add a little canned prescription food as a topper.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by anonymously.

[Howard J]

Seven months ago the vet discovered that my 11 year old cairn terrier had multiple nodules on her pancreas. They said that it was either a tumor, benign or malignant or hyperplasia of the pancreas, which is common in old dogs. A month ago she was acting lethargic, depressed and had a seizure like episode. They prescribed her doxycycline after she tested light positive for anaplasmosis and from here on she got much worse. She threw up yellow, foamy bile every night. She’s always had GI PROBLEMS but the doxy made her feel very sick, she refused to eat anything, and lost 2.5lbs in the process.

We brought her back in and they took her off the doxy, they gave her an anti-nausea injection and prescribed various medications to treat her stomach and pancreas. A few weeks later her blood test seemed to have improved, her ALKP at the time of the crisis was over 6000!! However, it went down to less than 2000 with all other liver enzymes in the reference range. Everything else was normal, including the blood count, except for slightly high calcium and BUN levels.

Any who, they compared her pancreas photos from seven months ago and the nodules have not changed at all. They said they are ruling out cancer, and it is most likely something that shouldn’t be worried about. However, they are saying her liver enzymes are still high and they want to do a liver biopsy to figure out what is the problem, in order to give us a better diagnosis and to implement a treatment plan. We refused and instead opted to give monthly urine samples, as well as administrating milk thistle into her diet.

MY QUESTION: What should her diet consist of? After the supposed pancreatitis episode we introduced her to chicken and rice, which she seemed to do okay on. We then introduced her to Fromm grain free, shredded chicken and Natural Instincts frozen raw venison. She absolutely loved it, and seemed to be doing great. We fed her a small amount of the medallions. I know raw diet, especially natural instinct has high fat content, so maybe it isn’t good? She is back to Fromm with some boiled chicken and rice and her symptoms of pancreatitis seem to be coming BACK!

Her stools are muscusy, yellow, greasy diarrhea, which are signs of pancreatitis and/or too much fat in her diet. She has also been dry heaving occasionally. These symptoms have developed after we stopped giving her Natural Instinct. Today we fed her just chicken but her stools are the same. Pungent, yellow diarrhea.

Should we give her ENZYMES and/or probiotics, it seems that she isn’t digesting her food properly and the vets aren’t really helping diet wise. Is it wise to give dogs with pancreatitis raw diets and if so which brand is the best for this condition. If not, what food is appropriate for her condition?

I would greatly appreciate the input!

John

[anonymously]

Did you check the search engine here? /forums/search/bladder+stones/

Excerpts from previous posts:

As your vet will confirm, dogs that have a tendency to make bladder stones have to be on a special diet the rest of their lives, this is a serious condition and it just doesn’t go away.

The x-ray is important, but once she is stable for about 1 year, ask the vet if you can skip the x-rays and testing urine PH as long as she is urinating normally and having no difficulty? Ask him the warning signs to look for. You didn’t mention her age?

I would comply with the prescription food for now.
And don’t forget, water, water, and more water added to the diet. Ask the vet ….but I believe this helps big time. And frequent bathroom breaks, opportunities to urinate.

“My dog had both (struvite and calcium oxalate), no symptoms till the age of 11, started with UTIs. He has had no recurrences in 4 years since his emergency surgery.
In fact, I just took him in for a geriatric workup and his lab work was good”.

“I was afraid the vet would want to do x-rays and test his urine…..but he said as long as he is not having symptoms we are not going there (he’s too old to tolerate another surgery)”
“I do monitor his urination habits and check for normal flow, stream, amount. If I note any discomfort I will take him to the vet”.

“There is a genetic component and some breeds are more prone to bladder stones.

“Anyway, if you do nothing else, add water and take her out to urinate frequently.
I went along with the prescription diet for almost a year, since then he has been on Nutrisca salmon and chickpea kibble soaked with water +, I use the wet food too, but the canned foods seem so greasy to me”…

PS: Soak the kibble, even the prescription food in water overnight in the fridg, add more water prior to serving. Keep the bladder flushed. Maybe add a little canned prescription food as a topper.

[anonymously]

Excerpts from previous posts:

As your vet will confirm, dogs that have a tendency to make bladder stones have to be on a special diet the rest of their lives, this is a serious condition and it just doesn’t go away.

The x-ray is important, but once she is stable for about 1 year, ask the vet if you can skip the x-rays and testing urine PH as long as she is urinating normally and having no difficulty? Ask him the warning signs to look for. You didn’t mention her age?

I would comply with the prescription food for now.
And don’t forget, water, water, and more water added to the diet. Ask the vet ….but I believe this helps big time. And frequent bathroom breaks, opportunities to urinate.

“My dog had both (struvite and calcium oxalate), no symptoms till the age of 11, started with UTIs. He has had no recurrences in 4 years since his emergency surgery.
In fact, I just took him in for a geriatric workup and his lab work was good”.

“I was afraid the vet would want to do x-rays and test his urine…..but he said as long as he is not having symptoms we are not going there (he’s too old to tolerate another surgery)”
“I do monitor his urination habits and check for normal flow, stream, amount. If I note any discomfort I will take him to the vet”.

“There is a genetic component and some breeds are more prone to bladder stones.

“Anyway, if you do nothing else, add water and take her out to urinate frequently.
I went along with the prescription diet for almost a year, since then he has been on Nutrisca salmon and chickpea kibble soaked with water +, I use the wet food too, but the canned foods seem so greasy to me”…

PS: Soak the kibble, even the prescription food in water overnight in the fridg, add more water prior to serving. Keep the bladder flushed. Maybe add a little canned prescription food as a topper.

[crazy4cats]

Hi Suzanne-
I’m sorry you are so worried about your pup. What led you to have a urinalysis done? Is/was your pup having any symptoms? Typically a dog with crystals also has an infection, but it seems not to be the case for your pup. The Rx food for this condition is typically low in magnesium, phosphorous and calcium. Maybe your vet thinks that wouldn’t be healthy for a growing pup. It also manipulates the urine pH to be more acidic to help dissolve the crystals. The berry blend you are giving is thought to help prevent infections and possibly lower the pH a bit. Also, I believe Vitamin C is anti inflammatory. Low protein foods are also often used to help with the dissolution of crystals while treating the infection. But, not necessary to continue after the issue is resolved.

As Inked Marie stated, it is very important to get as much moisture/water in the diet as well to dilute the urine as much as possible. Also plenty of bathroom breaks are extremely important. I’d also try to switch to a 3 star food if possible and feed mostly canned as it has more moisture.

I have a cat with this problem and he has regular urinalysis done. It is a necessary procedure, in my opinion. His condition was believed to be brought on by stress. He was a high strung shelter kitty. This is thought to be a common cause for Struvite crystals in cats, not sure if it is a factor in dogs. I had him on Rx food for six months and have weaned him off now while feeding mostly canned food. He is also on an anti-anxiety drug, plus some hocus pocus stuff, like a calming collar and a pheromone wall diffuser. So far so good, so I’m not changing anything!

Maybe you could get a second opinion from a different vet that would help with your anxiety?

Good luck and write back if you need suggestions for a new food.

[Jenn H]

Using formulas like the one Karen D suggested is very helpful.
You just need to find out what is required for your dog’s specific needs like breed, age/life stage, size, etc
I mix & match my dogs’ foods all the time. And because I have a large breed puppy I have to be very careful about making sure I stay within certain guidelines most importantly calcium & phosphorus, protein, fat.
Because dog food companies typically only put minimum amts in guaranteed analysis I find myself having to contact the companies for their maximum levels.
So you may have to do a little leg work.
When I have the percentages I need I subtract the lower amounts from the higher amounts of the different foods to be sure I’m within the percentages.

[HammockLover]

I just adopted a second dog yesterday and the shelter switched over to this food (they used to use Science Diet). I got really excited at the prospect of saving some money and the convenience of getting it at the grocery store (currently I use Merrick Grain Free) so the first thing I did was come on here to see if it was reviewed.

While it isn’t reviewed, I just got done going through the ingredient list to at least see which ones are controversial and thought I should share here:

***I couldn’t find info on the following ingredients: Dicalcium Phosphate, Copper Amino Acid Complex, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Manganous Oxide, L-Carnitine***

Spray Dried Egg Product – Cheap protein filler, a by-product remaining after making liquid eggs for humans.

Tomato Pomace – Cheap fiber filler, a by-product remaining after processing tomatoes into juice, soup and ketchup

Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex – A controversial form of vitamin K linked to liver toxicity, allergies and the abnormal break-down of red blood cells.

The last one is what concerns me, so I plan on sticking with Merrick. I apologize if I missed any, this was just me looking at about 15 dog food reviews here and cross referencing the ingredients.

[Shawna]

Hmmmmm? Creatinine is only a little high… Something doesn’t jive here. I’m sure there are exceptions to the rules but creatinine is a better indication of how well the kidneys are actually functioning (from everything I’ve ever read). Maybe newer data is suggesting different but data on this site, veterinary medicine dvm360, published in 2011 still agrees “A serum creatinine concentration is the most commonly used measure of severity of renal dysfunction and is the basis for staging chronic kidney disease (CKD) (Table 1). To optimize accurate staging of CKD, serum creatinine concentrations should be evaluated on two or more occasions when the patient is well-hydrated.” http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/laboratory-evaluation-kidney-disease?rel=canonical

Based on a BUN of 77 and a creatinine of 1.6, I personally wouldn’t do low protein but rather moderate amounts of “high quality” protein.

Does your girl have large amounts of very dilute urine? Was there any protein in the urine? Was any other tests done? Is there any other medical conditions? Did you get a second opinion? She doesn’t want to eat often but you said this is just her normal. Does she have any other symptoms such as vomiting, depression etc?

This may help… My Audrey was diagnosed when she was just 13 months old but had symptoms when she was just 6 weeks old. Within the first year of diagnosis I made dietary changes and then had her blood work done every three months. On December 18, 2007 (the second blood work done after the dietary changes) her BUN was 77 (6 to 25 normal) and her creatinine was 1.9 (0.5 to 1.6 are normal ranges for this lab). Audrey didn’t eat a lower protein diet for another almost 7 years.

They also now know that senior dogs actually require MORE protein than adult dogs because they are less efficient at digesting it. Even toy breed dogs – I had a 4 pound Chihuahua live to age 19 eating a HIGH protein diet.

Please take some time to read the articles on this website. http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidneyprotein.html

Okay……..YES – I would highly recommend starting her on Standard Process Canine Renal Support. It’s pricey up front but will last a long time for a four pound little girl. I’ve never used Five Leaf but others I’ve directly talked to felt it helped. The Primal Defense and Acacia Fiber will help lower BUN. I personally would look at feeding foods with higher quality and amounts of protein and getting rid of the cream of wheat and gravy. See if you can find canned tripe — a brand that is just tripe. There is one out with quinoa but I’m not sure how much phosphorus is in quinoa so not sure it is suitable? It may be, I just don’t know. Tripe itself is higher in protein with moderate amounts of phosphorus. Most dogs really really like it too. You can continue the goat milk (best if it’s raw in my opinion). Eggs are a good option but the yolk is higher in phosphorus so, recommendations vary depending on stage of the disease, you might want to feed more cooked whites then whole eggs (maybe a one to one ratio – one whole egg with one white only). I would also suggest against feeding homemade as it is really important to get the phosphorus to calcium ratios correct and to limit phosphorus to appropriate amounts for the stage of the disease (which is early stage based on the numbers you mentioned—unless your lab normals are way different than mine?). There are recipes online if you want to home prepare. Dr. Meg Smart has a recipe – you would want the one for “early to moderate stage” http://petnutritionbysmart.blogspot.com/2013/02/home-made-diets-and-renal-disese-in.html

There’s lots more you can do but you mentioned you have a budget so start with these and then if there’s more for other things you can add on as able–such as herbs that can be helpful.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 6 months ago by Shawna.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 6 months ago by Shawna.

[Shawna]

Hi Vicky T,

My Chihuahua mix had kidney disease from birth and lived to just shy of nine years of age. The most important thing I can say about kidney disease is DON’T feed a kibble diet — even prescription kibble. If you want to stick with prescription, Science Diet has some nice canned products that they recently came out with. One is beef based and the other is chicken based. If you are interested in feeding homemade, Veterinary Nutritionist Dr. Meg Smart has a nice recipe on her blog page. Dr. Smart gives a recipe for “early to moderate” and for “late stage” kidney disease. http://petnutritionbysmart.blogspot.com/2013/02/home-made-diets-and-renal-disese-in.html

Many, if not most, vets have not yet heard about (or understand if they did hear) the importance of probiotics and certain prebiotics (aka fermentable fibers) for kidney patients. These two supplements help to re-route BUN from the dog’s blood to the colon. This helps pup feel better and allows for a bit higher protein diet. The Merck Vet Manual has a nice blurb about it if your or your vet might be interested. They write “In addition, feeding moderately fermentable fiber can facilitate enteric dialysis and provide a nonrenal route of urea excretion.” http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/management_and_nutrition/nutrition_small_animals/nutrition_in_disease_management_in_small_animals.html

The fermentable fiber I found to be the most helpful with my Audrey was a human product called “Fiber35 Sprinkle Fiber”. It is no longer made but the fiber used, acacia fiber, is also sold by NOW brand. The probiotic I used is also a human product called “Garden of Life Primal Defense”. I gave the products together with Audrey’s meal whenever she seemed depressed, down or not feeling well. Audrey at a HIGH protein diet her whole except the last couple months and then I added some canned KD to her diet.

If Audrey had symptoms of nausea (which was rare until the very end) I would add a drop or two of peppermint essential oil (therapeutic grade only) or ginger extract (from health food store). Now vet Dr. Melissa Shelton has a line of essential oils for animals that are wonderful. I tried her GI Goe product when I had eaten something that wasn’t agreeing with me and it helped TREMENDOUSLY.. I put a dot of the oil on my finger and rubbed it on my tongue. Helped almost immediately.

Having a purified source of high quality drinking water always available is a great idea. Also giving Evian (or another high calcium, lower sodium mineral water) has been shown to help kd patients too.

The one supplement that I gave my Audrey from the day of diagnosis to the day she passed was Standard Process Canine Renal Support. It is a whole food supplement that can help prevent damage to the kidneys from inflammation. I HIGHLY recommend it.

I also really really like Answer’s Raw Goat Milk for kd dogs. It can often be found in pet boutique stores.

I found my local vets (two regular vets and one holistic vet (that I otherwise LOVE)) to be almost useless when it came to diet (or anything else natural that could be helpful with kidney disease).. I hope your vet is much more helpful!!!

Do take a look at the link that C4D posted (dogaware). That site was HUGELY helpful to me when I was trying to figure out what to do with Audrey right after diagnosis.

Good luck to you and thanks to C4D for the kind words!!!!

[Alex p]

since meat is high in phosphorus and lower in calcium, too much meat is not good for dogs over long periods of time”. (Many people still confuse the disastrous all meat diets with meat-based diets; one is not good the other is ideal.) Grain-based diets for dogs, and even more so for cats, do not make nutritional sense.

You can offer some natural foods to provide some variety. Natural foods include fresh human-grade raw meat (e.g. raw lamb), raw meaty bones and vegetables

[anonymously]

Check the search engine here: /forums/search/bladder+stones/page/2/
As your vet will confirm, dogs that have a tendency to make bladder stones have to be on a special diet the rest of their lives, this is a serious condition and it just doesn’t go away.

The x-ray is important, but once she is stable for about 1 year, ask the vet if you can skip the x-rays and testing urine PH as long as she is urinating normally and having no difficulty? Ask him the warning signs to look for. You didn’t mention her age?

I would comply with the prescription food for now.
And don’t forget, water, water, and more water added to the diet. Ask the vet ….but I believe this helps big time. And frequent bathroom breaks, opportunities to urinate.

Below is a previous post of mine:
“My dog had both (struvite and calcium oxalate), no symptoms till the age of 11, started with UTIs. He has had no recurrences in 4 years since his emergency surgery.
In fact, I just took him in for a geriatric workup and his lab work was good”.

“I was afraid the vet would want to do x-rays and test his urine…..but he said as long as he is not having symptoms we are not going there (he’s too old to tolerate another surgery)”
“I do monitor his urination habits and check for normal flow, stream, amount. If I note any discomfort I will take him to the vet”.

“There is a genetic component and some breeds are more prone to bladder stones.

“Anyway, if you do nothing else, add water and take her out to urinate frequently.
I went along with the prescription diet for almost a year, since then he has been on Nutrisca salmon and chickpea kibble soaked with water +, I use the wet food too, but the canned foods seem so greasy to me”…

PS: Soak the kibble, even the prescription food in water overnight in the fridg, add more water prior to serving. Keep the bladder flushed. Maybe add a little canned prescription food as a topper.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 6 months ago by anonymously.

[zuponicafe]

yjessie~ I have a 10 m/o mixed breed who’s eventual adult size we were unsure of (still growing!) so I went for the foods that were w/in the limits of the large breed calcium guidelines. He’s lab/shep/husky/clown.
I have switched his foods around pretty regularly since we got him at 8 weeks, but always with an eye on the calcium & so far so good. And I swap his food around a lot. Dry & wet, different companies, different proteins.
There are occasions when he gets a squirty crap, but nothing note worthy. Like my husband says, that dog has better turds than I do.

[Shawna]

Hi Sheila23,

Although a homemade diet is absolutely doable I would do a LOT more research before you decide on any one brand. Example — Tripe is a great food for kd dogs but it is supposedly already balanced in calcium to phosphorus. Adding a premix like Preference, that is designed to balance higher phosphorus meat, could be problematic. Although phosphorus needs to be watched, you can go too low too early in the disease.

Balance IT could be an option but I personally wouldn’t have fed my KD girl such a low protein diet (ESPECIALLY in the early stages). Based on the nutrient profile of their beef and rice early stage kd diet the protein amount is only 15.3%. That’s ridiculously low for early stage kd without any complicating issues like proteinuria. Not even enough to meet the minimum protein amounts required for an a complete and balanced diet. They also use corn oil — EEEEKK. The chicken & rice recipe is even worse at 14.9% protein.

If you can afford it, I would highly recommend looking at Darwin’s prescription KD diet formulated by vet Dr. Barbara Royal. The ingredient list is
“Human-Grade Meat: Beef Meat, Beef Tripe, Beef Pancreas, Beef Lungs, Beef Kidneys, Beef Liver, Beef Heart, Beef Spleen.

Vegetables: Cabbage, Celery, Squash, Sweet Potato, Beets, Romaine Lettuce.

Special Nutrient Mix: Filtered Water (for processing), Sardine oil (source of EPA, DPA and DHA), Egg Shell Powder, Parsley, Apple Cider Vinegar, Inulin, Cornsilk, Dandelion Root, Cinnamon, Cranberry, Linden Flowers, , Chitosan, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Vitamin E, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Potassium Iodide, Vitamin D3, Aloe Vera.” http://www.darwinspet.com/our-raw-foods/our-raw-dog-food/intelligent-design-ks/

I LOVE that you are starting Alvin on Standard Process Renal Support. It is the one supplement that my Audrey NEVER did without since diagnosis. She had KD from birth (symptoms showed at just 6 weeks of age) but she wasn’t diagnosed till she was 13 months old. She was given one year to live after that. She lived to almost her ninth birthday and it was an infection that took her life not the normal progression of kidney disease.

Some other things to look at for Alvin — purified water (as much as he wants), extra water soluble vitamins if he urinates large volumes of water. A high quality probiotic and a prebiotic made with acacia fiber helps to clear BUN etc from the blood allowing for higher protein to be fed or simply helps clear BUN when necessary. This is called “nitrogen trapping”. Giving Evian (or another higher calcium, lower sodium mineral water) has been shown to be beneficial for kidney disease. I did give my Audrey fresh, raw garlic most of her life. I still believe that if I hadn’t gotten lazy and quit giving it to her near the end of her life she wouldn’t have developed the severe infection that ended up damaging her kidneys and taking her life. Enzymes to help with the digestion of his food. Certain supplements and herbs can be helpful — spirulina provides many nutrients, food grade activated charcoal given off an on in small amounts can help clear toxins, organic turmeric helps with inflammation and also helps prevent scar tissue (works best when combined with pepper or the enzyme bromelain from pineapple). Chlorella is a wonderful detoxer and it helps build red blood cells due to the high amounts of chlorphyll in it. Apple cider vinegar can help with indigestion (fed with food in small amounts or given via syringe but must be diluted first). Ginger extract and therapeutic grade peppermint oil can help with nausea (later in the illness). I also recently read that there is other therapeutic grade essential oils that can help the kidneys but I don’t remember the particulars of the article. Vet Dr. Melissa Shelton would be the person to seek out if wanting to incorporate essential oils.

I was lucky with Audrey, she was able to eat commercial raw products clear up to a few months before she passed. I’m not sure if that was because of the supplements, being fed raw from weaning or what but she did quite well. Possibly look at lower phosphorus commercial foods and then add small amounts of low phosphorus toppers (lightly cooked egg whites and coconut oil as an example) to keep the calories up while lowering the overall phosphorus even more. There are some great nutritionists out there as well that could be quite beneficial to you and Alvin.

Hoping Alvin does as well as, or better than, my Audrey!!!

Thank you Marie!

[Pitlove]

Personal opinion is I like both brands, but at heart I am a Fromm girl. My dog does amazing on it and I really love the company and the quality of the food. Only thing is the Salmon A la Veg is grain based, so if he can’t have grains that one is probably out.

INGREDIENTS
Salmon, Salmon Meal, Brown Rice, Sweet Potatoes, Pearled Barley, Potatoes, Oatmeal, White Rice, Dried Whole Egg, Salmon Oil, Millet, Dried Tomato Pomace, Safflower Oil, Cheese, Flaxseed, Carrots, Broccoli, Cauliflower, Apples, Green Beans, Chicken Cartilage, Potassium Chloride, Monosodium Phosphate, Cranberries, Blueberries, Salt, Monocalcium Phosphate, Chicory Root Extract, Alfalfa Sprouts, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Sodium Selenite, Folic Acid, Taurine, Parsley, Sorbic Acid (Preservative), Vitamins, Minerals, Probiotics.

[Jenn H]

Does anyone feed their dogs a diet of kibble and canned/raw/dehydrated?
I have large breed dogs that I like to supplement their dry when the weather gets cold to keep their weight up.
My real.concern is my puppy. He’s 4 months old. GSD. Approx 30 lbs. I know I have to keep his calcium at 1.5% max. Because of that I am having a problem finding the right food.
He acts like he’s starving to death even though he gets 3 3/4 cups fed over 4 meals. Right now he’s on Wellness Core Grain Free Puppy.

I’m looking for either a food that will satisfy his appetite or something I can supplement/replace some of his kibble with that will allow me to stay within the calcium guidelines.
While I am not opposed to canned, raw or dehydrated, I cannot feed strictly those types of foods.
I would also prefer a NON grain free food. Unless a dog has allergies I know they actually need some grains. Plus it seems that grain free has far more carbs than non grain free.

I appreciate any suggestions.
Thank you.

[Pitlove]

Like I said, your dog is past the point where the calcium/phosphorus ratio needs to be worried about. So I wouldn’t worry about that. I like the Fromm Gold and most large breed adult formulas because they are lower in fat than regular adult formulas which helps keep my pitbull at an ideal weight when its summer and humid down here in the south.

I would say they are important. Some large breed formulas contain trace amounts of glucosamine and MSM. Fromm Gold has chicken cartilage as the natural source of both. However, some argue that there isnt enough of an amount of either in foods to make it theraputic. Others say its made a huge difference in their dog. I feel that excersize is the key to keeping joints mobile, but when they do get older a supplement can be useful too aside from continuing regular excersize.

[losul]

Hi again. Sorry for the tardy reply, all.

I’ve some preference for feeding a dog a majority of ruminant meats overall with a lesser amount of poultry overall in my dogs diet, provided the the beef (or other ruminant) is coming from a good, properly raised and fed source. I think the overall fats balance out better that way, and without using much vegetable fats. And as long as I can afford it!!

I wouldn’t necessarily say that beef heart is better, nothing against poultry
hearts, much depends on the source, and for just some supplemental or small batch
use, chicken hearts are handier to use than beef hearts!

I had kind of a bad experience the first time I bought beef hearts a few years ago.(from a different, conventionally raised source, feedlot) I thought never again! They were oversized and completely encased in a way overly tough and thick membrane and excessive suet.. the inside was as bad, and not at all cleaned-gristle, connective tissue,vessels, excessive suetetc., and frankly, they looked old, grayish, and tough. It took alot of effort to clean them enough to suit me, way too much effort, and ended up with alot of waste. It wasn’t worth it, and was a good while before I ever tried beef hearts again. In hindsight some of that gristle
and connective tissue, etc. , wouldn’t have hurt to include anyway!

Where I’ve been getting them the last few times, the outside only has a partial and thin membrane and little suet fat, are very fresh, and the butcher near completely cleans the insides for me, I have not much left to do except cut them up! And I get them for only $1.49/lb cleaned weight! I get good clean liver and kidneys 1.29/lb the same place. I guess not many people around here want to eat heart or organ meats! But the regular and lean cuts of beef are every bit as expensive as anywhere else! So when I make a beef batch I’ve been using the hearts for up to 1/2 of the total muscle meat amount. It equals a good savings vs using all lean human prefered cuts for all the muscle meat. In making a full balanced recipe, I can’t count the heart as organ meat, I still add the small amounts of liver and kidney, and I won’t press the heart amount any beyond 1/2 of the muscle meat count. They say too much heart can cause loose stools, never had that problem or with any any food, but the extra heart I’m using helps to keep some beef in the diet at more an affordable price for me! If one were to use all heart for the muscle meat though, there would very
likely be some deficit somewhere in the nutrition to look for and abundances of others, and I wouldn’t ever advise using overly excessive amounts. Also dogs handle cholesterol differently than humans, but heart, liver and some other organs do contain a disproportionately large amount of cholesterol, something to keep in mind. Don’t over do it!.

Faith, so your dog is about 60lbs. BTW, I believe my dog is 1/2 boston terrier and
1/2 bull terrier of some sort, probably staffy or pit, I’ve got a compact model though,
only about 40 lbs. That’s great that your feller found a loving home with you! I
would assume that his regular diet is around 1150 calories give or take? For your
purposes and for now as supplemental only, yeah I would limit the chicken hearts to
NO more than about 3 or 4 ounces. at least if and until until you are more prepared too see to it that the diet retains balance with your additions. Here, raw Chicken hearts show more calories and fat than the beef hearts, raw. (you might have to enter the serving size) but 100 grams chick hearts (about 3.5 ounces) has about 150 calories. add to that maybe a teaspoon of fish oil a day, an egg a couple times a week, and youre already pushing nearly 20% of unbalanced supplemental calories in his diet, and that then isn’t allowing for any unbalanced treats!

The more things you would add if you do so, or if you go with homemade meals, the more attention you are going to need pay to keeping nutritional balance. And you should really
balance out the extra phosphorus you are adding as it is, with calcium supplement.

If using finely ground eggshell, add 1/2 teaspoon to 2/3 t for each 1 lb of meat, organs, egg etc used. Calcium is very important in a dog’s diet, overall calcium in the diet should at least equal the amount of phosphorus, but also never going more than 2X the amount of phosphorus. a ratio of between 1:1 to 2:1. Most commercial diets I think fall between a ratio of 1.2:1 and 1.6:1, so there would likely be enough buffer already there in your commercial diet to cover your extra phosporus additions, but if me, I would still add at least a bit of calcium anyway.

raw chicken hearts

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/poultry-products/664/2

raw beef hearts

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3464/2

I hear ya on financial bias. dogaware.com is a great site with lots of useful info, some is a little outdated, as Mary Strauss is not so active anymore, but she has nothing to sell as far as I know. and has generously accumulated a ton of good info/articles there.

I prefer a pump bottle for fish oil, so I use Iceland Pure sardine/anchovy, I keep it in the fridge and get a fresh bottle every 3 months. This brand already has some mixed tocopherols in it (vit E), but I still add some additional E in my dog’s diet.

I use some veggies, fruits, and even some select grains, but never in abundance. I
don’t know if you’ve ever heard the old idiom “as fit as a butcher’s dog” I don’t
think the typical old time butcher fed his dog an abundance of starchy plant
material!!! I also still use 25% commercial kibble, haven’t ever been able to get away from it completely for various reasons.

Lastly, I might not be around here to write much anymore, but as you can see from the replies to your thread(and other threads) there are so many awesomely helpful people, good people, on site to help with questions you have, or even just support!! And even if they don’t have answers right away, they have also proven to be excellent researchers!!!

G’night everyone!

• This reply was modified 10 years, 8 months ago by losul.

[Pitlove]

Cara, since your Dogue De Bordeaux is past the point of puppyhood, her body can correctly absorb calcium. Any skeletal or growth disorders that you dog might have would have already been apparent as they usually happen during their critical growth period. Something your dog is past.

I feed Fromm Gold Large Breed Adult to my pitbull. Its lower in protein than I prefer, but I don’t feed the recommended amount (I feed less because hes not as active right now) and he maintains his ideal weight. Also hes picky and this is a food he eats happily. No canned food or anything else on it to enhance flavor. Perhaps this could be a food that would work for her. The fat is lower too than the regular Adult formula which I liked.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 8 months ago by Pitlove.

[Susan]

Hi, poor thing, she probably hurt her mouth on the sharp chicken leg bone… when I first rescued my dog, I was giving him chicken wings, but Patch didn’t chew on the wing, he chewed maybe 2 chews then swallowed the whole chicken wing, so I’ve been too scared to give him any bones, different if he chewed & chewed on the bone like a normal dog but he eats like he’s starving like he has never been given all these different foods, I was giving him chicken necks & the same he just swallowed them then he got Colitis & was pooing blood & the vet said stop the chicken necks, so I haven’t given him any bones again but a few people say turkey necks are good & bigger then a chicken neck, maybe try a turkey neck, if you want calcium just keep your egg shells, wash the egg’s shell, use the egg, then dry the egg shells out, then grind the egg shell & give 1 teaspoon grinded egg shell sprinkled on her meal once a day, your suppose to get 1 teaspoon from 1 grinded egg shell… I’ve been giving Patch Green Mussel treat they’re dehydrated I give 1 a day, I buy the K-9 Natural Green Mussel treats at the moment we have an offer buy any K-9 Natural treats & get a 50g bag of Venison reward treat free…. Green Lipped Mussel is suppose to be good for arthritis & Turmeric powder Golden paste, Turmeric, pepper & coconut oil….
there’s a group called “Turmeric User Group” on face Book in the files they tell you how to make golden paste….people say its excellent for any animals & human with arthritis…
http://www.k9natural.com/product-information/dog-food-range-au.html

[Allison A]

It is an exhaustive process, for sure. There was a moment that I thought it could be the fat content of the food, but he had diarrhea with Natural Balance LID Fish and that has 10% fat. Normal-ish stool on Hills Adult light, and that has 9% fat. Obviously that 1% isn’t making that huge of a difference, so it has to be the fiber content.

We slowly titrated up to 3 TABLESPOONS of psyllium a day, which would cause major changes for a 200-lb man, and there was no improvement. All it did was give him gummy stool that he strained to get out, and it was still so mushy that his anal glands started bugging him.

Here are the Hills ingredients:
Chicken Meal, Pea Bran Meal, Whole Grain Sorghum, Whole Grain Wheat, Corn Gluten Meal, Cracked Pearled Barley, Whole Grain Corn, Powdered Cellulose, Chicken Liver Flavor, Dried Beet Pulp, Soybean Oil, Lactic Acid, Flaxseed, Potassium Chloride, Iodized Salt, L-Lysine, Choline Chloride, vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Niacin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), Taurine, Oat Fiber, L-Carnitine, Mixed Tocopherols for freshness, Beta-Carotene, Phosphoric Acid, Natural Flavors, Dried Apples, Dried Broccoli, Dried Carrots, Dried Cranberries, Dried Peas.

I’m trying to figure out which of the fibers in there is the magic bullet. If it’s the corn and wheat that helps his stool but makes him itchy, then that stinks! Beet pulp absorbs a ton of fluid (have experience with that as a component of horse feed), but I haven’t been able to find a quantity of beet pulp for purchase that’s less than 50 lbs.

I have no issue cooking a completely home-prepared diet for him, but if he’s going to need something like kangaroo protein, then a commercially available food is going to be more economical.

I am not a fan of probiotics. A two-week trial gave him explosive diarrhea; same thing with three of my previous dogs. Personally, I have an extensive GI condition, and probiotics have been the worst thing for it. I know some people and animals have great results with them, but that hasn’t been the case in my household.