[mfulton7]

Ok makes sense. We definitely can’t see her ribs or hip bones. I’m assuming we’ve been over feeding. I have no doubt in my mind that she would eat until she exploded. No matter how much we fee her she still acts hungry. I guess I’ll continue to feed her as the bag suggests and adjust her amounts if I notice she’s losing weight etc. Thanks so much theBCnut!

[pugmomsandy]

My dogs like raw beef ribs (or Merrick Ranger Ribs) and cow hooves, tracheas, and Merrick GI Bones.

[hamptonmeadow]

-Pig ears, bully sticks are sourced from China. I would never touch them. The same with cat fish skins. hdm suggestion of traecheas and chicken RAW bones etc are as usual good advice.

Never parboil bones, cooked bones splinter. I would not feed marrow bones because some dogs get their mouths stuck in the center. But the marrow is awesome.

Vets are really no nutritionists and don’t know a lot about much beside what they sell.
But, you can listen to the knowledgeable people here. You can also make treats if you don’t use sugar and use seseme seeds, chia seeds and fruits and green leafy veggies and cruiciferous veggies (pureed).

[theBCnut]

Never feed solely based on feeding recommendations. There are quite a number of factors that affect how much any given dog should eat, so the only way to really determine how much your dog should eat is based on her body condition. You should be able to see where her last ribs are and the tops of her hip bones. She should have a nice tuck up and should have well defined muscles. Our old Dobie would eat until she exploded so desire for more food was NEVER a good way to tell if she should have more food.

[SpanielMom]

In my experience, you can feed the harder bones (femurs, narrow bones, etc) once or twice a week. But you can add softer bones like chicken backs more often. I will warn you though, please supervise your dog with the harder bones, one of my larger dogs who is too enthusiastic about bones broke a canine tooth on one. She is only allowed softer bones now. But the rest of my dogs do great with raw bones.

Two of my four dogs got sick when I introduced them to raw bones for the first time (I had never fed them raw before that) and the others adjusted just fine. I would pick up a few chicken/turkey necks and try giving your dog one of those first, or chop it up and give the dog a few pieces, they are small and that way the dog can get used to the raw a little bit at a time. Or give a raw bone for just a few minutes at a time. Hopefully this helps.

[Iride4tnt]

for the purpose of teeth cleaning, how often should you feed raw bones to a large dog? would you need to start with a small piece and work up to avoid digestive issues?

[JamesKelly]

My experience with two toy poodles, weight about 8-9#, & one 11# cockapoo is if you think they might have food problems, or at least some mysterious undiagnosed troubles, change them to something that at least claims to be all-natural, made in USA only. Read the ingredients, then find out what the producer description really means.

Poodle #1 about 20 years ago. Started feeding her some dyed red soft food pellets in a clear package, disremember brand, haven’t seen it in years. She of course loved it. She was getting old, lost control of her bladder. Took her to vet & he gave us the nice speech preparating us to have our aging dog put down. Then he was so amazed by how healthy she seemed, when he examined her. I, an engineer not a vet, would attribute this to her living with a young Springer Spaniel & two Siamese cats, all of whom kept her quite active. I thought about it, then took her off of the pretty soft red food. She regained bladder control.
Coincidence, of course.

Poodle #2 maybe 10 years ago. Loved to lie down in my lap, but it was a real good idea to put a towel or blanket underneath her to catch the Leakage from this aging female. She ate some presumably good vet-approved canned dog food. Remembered Poodle #1 and switched her to something that claimed to be all natural, I believe Paul Newman’s stuff. No more leaking, safe to have her in my lap.
In my opinion, not shared by my wife (& unsure of vet), I killed her with Nutro treat sticks some years later.

Cockapoo 3 years old, weight 11#. Occasionally throws up bile, then one scrambled egg breakfast last week. Had been giving her Milkbones. Wife of course thinks I am an over-reacting know-it-all. True enough, but dog’s morning appetite better & no more bile spots on rug. Read the amazing ingredients in Milkbones. Yes, I am an arrogant fellow, and yes, Dog is now Off of those treats. No more wheat, sodium metabisulfite and BHA (whether or not they are responsible).

Wish this site would do a review of Milkbone (Dog loves them) & perhaps suggest some healthier dry biscuits that still taste good to Dog.

I really would like to hear from some experienced, educated person who knows about dog foods, rather than try to apply engineering methods to care for Dog.

[GoliathsMom]

I just read about Ole Roy’s Chews last night. Search on “safe dog biscuits” popped up this brand. It is hard to tell if Blue Bones uses any ingredients from China. I hope someone out there reviews them for us.

[JamesKelly]

I have had, in my opinion, extremely bad results from giving my LATE poodle Nutro treat sticks. She had blood in her stools, bad appetite. High liver enzymes. Loved the treats. Took her off of treats, she was most disappointed but her appetite came back. For a while. About 10 mo later she died of liver hemorrhage in vet’s office.

Have recently ceased to give my 3 yr old Cockapoo Milkbones because seems to me they affected her appetite & associated them with finding her (1 scrambled egg) breakfast on the rug last week.

Wife disagrees.

You should know that I an arrogant engineer with a high degree of faith in my own observations.

[JamesKelly]

I might suggest simply taking your dog off of these treats.
The producer and the vet may or may not be helpful.

I gave my #9 toy Poodle Nutro treats. She loved them. Appetite decreased, one time had blood in stools. Vet was concerned about her high liver enzymes, neither of us could figure out what she might have gotten into. Unlike many dogs, she never (in my observation) ate or chewed on odd objects about the yard or street. Took her off of snacks, she was most disappointed. Then her appetite came back. Left her off of Nutro, but, about a year later she was quiet one morning before a vet appointment, died of liver hemorrage in his office.
Of course it could have been age-related, other problems. But she surely did pick up after a week or so without Nutro sticks.

Now we have given our 3 year old 11# Cockapoo Milkbones. She loves them. In recent months her appetite has a little off in the morning, occasionally threw up bile. Last week threw up her breakfast egg (we share breakfast). I took her off of Milkbones & looked about the internet for information. Wife thinks I am nuts, but I will never feed a dog of mine Milkbone, Nutro or any other pet food store treat again. Think her appetite is back. Asked Vet today to humor me & check her liver enzymes.

Have faith in my own observations, at least in this instance.
Read the ingredients, then fine out what they really are. You would not eat those chemicals & amazing animal parts, why feed them to Dog?.

[Shasta220]

I’d agree with crazy4cats, I think you should try to find a super quality nutrient-dense kibble, then add their favorite meat (cooked or raw, however they like it). Try canned foods, or make your own broth by boiling chicken bones (or just adding some water to any of the juices after cooking the meat). It will add moisture and flavor to the food, two pluses for picky pups.

That’s good that you took away treats. It might help them realize “Oh… This weird stuff in my bowl is actually food? I think I should eat it!” My boy used to be a picky picky eater, he’d go without food for up to 3 days, simply because he didn’t like the brand/flavor. I would quit giving him his daily biscuits, and he’d go back to eating. He wasn’t overweight at all either – as it sounds like your dogs are on the thin side as well.

[Shasta220]

I’ve never done home made diets, so I’m terribly sorry – I’m not much help. I completely understand though, I have a cat who is ultra picky. She will not touch ANY type of commercial food (we’ve tried dry, canned, flaked, pouched, refrigerated, you name it, she’s turned her nose up at.). We tried offering her nothing but cat food for a week straight, and she probably would have completely starved herself, she would NOT touch it.

She’s picky about her food now even, so she doesn’t get the nutrition she needs, and it’s showing sadly… I’m jumping on this thread to see what some suggestions might be.

The only way I could think of hiding extra nutrition into their food is by grinding it. I know organ meats and raw bones are important in a balanced diet. Maybe buying a supplemental powder (just general vitamins probably) and try adding that, maybe start with just 1/2 day’s worth, as many animals can detect the smell of it and refuse. Omegas are always one of my favorite additions. My dogs get it with fish oils (salmon, sardine, krill, I think even algae would work), and raw eggs – your dogs may prefer the taste of cooked.

Just play around with how much you can get in there without it being too detected. Possibly try coconut oil as well, it has tons of benefits. Try offering them a teaspoon of organic extra virgin cold-pressed coconut oil. It’s great for their skin, fur, teeth, digestion, and pretty much everything else! Most dogs like it, too.

Hopefully you’ll be able to figure out something that works out perfectly. Have you tried commercial dehydrated, refridgorated, or raw foods? They already have balanced nutrients, so you wouldn’t need to worry about many supplements.

And yes, dog nutrition is very very confusing. Research and reading forums seems to make it worse, as everyone has their own opinions and experiences… Plus, every dog is different, so what works miracles for my dog might do absolutely nothing for yours. Just keep trying to gain information though, I’m sure you’ll slowly start figuring it out. (I’m new to nutrition myself, but the more I’m on here, the more I learn!)

[Sharon Buchanan]

In the numerous raw topics and posts here on DFA and in particular, this topic on recipes, great attention is paid to supplementing raw meats/poultry with veggies, vitamins and others. In reading articles elsewhere on feeding whole prey, we’re told that dogs don’t eat veggies (of course, I’ve never seen a dog take down a cow either), so making sure they get the whole chicken over time or the whole rabbit over time, among others, should provide them with a balanced diet. These two diet/recipe concepts seem contradictory.

Now, I do supplement with coconut oil, curcumen, a c-complex and garlic for reasons I’ve stated elsewhere, in addition to the obvious ones. I’ve taken the advice of Patty and finally found a grocery that carries kafir (which may be hard to continue because the smell gives me indigestion and Mystery reeks of it all day), and I give Mystery a whole egg occasionally – cracked over a coarse grind with the shell.

If I may, I’d like to list the raw meats I have on hand and get some suggestions on the best way to combine them, add to them, improve something or another. I’m hoping to get half a cow in a few weeks from a local farm, but until then I’ve been ordering from MPC. So here’s what I have right now:

Ground Beef Tripe Supermix
Ground Whole Young Beef
Coarse Ground Whole Rabbit
Coarse Ground Whole Chicken
Whole Turkey Necks – they’re huge
Duck Necks
Chicken Feet
RMBs – emphasis on RM
Marrow bones from my local grocery

Mystery’s adult healthy weight averages 85 lbs. (UK Kennel standards (not AKC) for English Creme Golden Retrievers). I had to take my kitten to the vet yesterday and took Mystery with me to get his weight 56.4 lbs – exactly what he weighed at the beginning of January. He’s grown longer as his breed would but his ribs, while not visible, are easily felt. He’s 11 months old. Talked it over with the vet and she wondered if he was a runt – we wondered together. I’ve been feeding him just under 3 lbs. a day over two meals.

So, I guess what I need to know is how to balance the foods listed, whats missing from my raw “pantry”, as well as any ideas on how to bulk him – not a lot, but more than he is. I expect him to reach full growth at about 18 months.

Thanks in advance! Seems the more I know, the less I know.

[Sharon Buchanan]

Lablubber ~
In answer to your question from the Large and Giant Breed Nutrition forum about raw sourcing:

I decided a few weeks ago that the best diet for Mystery would be raw. Having made that decision, I didn’t think I should wait just because I didn’t have a local source for meat so I started pounding around the raw food thread and large breed raw thread. I asked questions about how to start, what to feed… I knew I wasn’t interested in freeze-dried or frozen patties – my boy is going to eat “manly” meat, where I could find a reliable, trustworthy online place to get meat and poultry and any other essential real food to get me through a search period. Based on recommendations here, I chose My Pet Carnivore (MPC).

Since I would have to wait for my first shipment, I headed to the grocery store, picked up a non-GMO, organic whole chicken as well as some meat with bones in them. I pulled out my German meat cleaver and a cutting board with grooves and discovered an expensive knife and cutting board does not make one a butcher. Next time I’m just going to give it to the meat department and tell them to hack it up for me.

Last week I found a farm that grass feeds, no GMOs, but they do feed grains in the three weeks prior to slaughter (I’m still checking to see if that is standard practice and if not, why it’s done and whether it effects the quality of the meat (other than the tripe) – more questions for my conference list). I may be able to get half of a cow in a few weeks at $2/lb. So, I have a 20 cu.ft. freezer arriving on Saturday and I continue to look at local resources including a dairy farm where they usually put down male calves, as well as chicken, goat and other natural farmed animals. Until then, I’m happy using MPC for all of my meat. I received my second shipment from them today, thank goodness – twice what I ordered the first time and I feel better about the balance of foods. MPC sells a number of balanced grinds – chicken, tripe/organs/etc. They also sell fine ground meats (I assume for small dogs), as well as coarse grind.

So, the answer to your question is – yes, you can buy from a reputable market. It’s cheaper in the long run since you don’t have to pay high shipping fees to ensure frozen mean doesn’t thaw before it arrives. (If you live near MPC they have pickup points.) The first local meat market I called not only couldn’t tell me whether the meat they sell is GMO free but they seemed irritated that I asked. Not going there! I’m also looking for a co-op of folks who are feeding raw but that is turning out to be more difficult to find than I expected.

As for supplements, I’ve been giving Mystery garlic (pest control), and a vitamin C complex (gum health, immune support, antioxidant), from Springtime from the day I brought him home, that hasn’t changed now that he’s on raw. He’s also getting two 825mg capsules of curcumen (variety of cancers, inflammation, among many others), sprinkled on his food and about a tablespoon of coconut oil which I started him on for a skin condition that cleared up in a matter of weeks and continue to give him for a myriad of benefits. I may be adding krill oil to his list of supplements as well.

In addition to all the help you’ll get here, if you go to mypetcarnivore.com, whether you intend to buy or not, they have some links to some great articles on feeding raw – right side, about half way down the homepage. If you sign up for Dogs Naturally Magazine, they email you a link to download their Raw Food Primer.

There are folks here who are much smarter about all of this than I am (which is why I’m here), and they have been really helpful during my transition to raw. Keep asking those questions!

[caseynotis]

Hi everyone!
I’m new and first would like to say Thank You, for all this wonderful information about dog foods & treats & everything! We just adopted a rescue puppy and I want to make sure we are feeding him the best we can (within the wallet’s ability 🙂 ) . Sarge is a 7 wk old Akita/Rotti/Lab mix, started on Innova Puppy Food at 5 wks (not sure what happened to the mom), so for now we are continuing with the Innova until I do some more research to see what else is out there.

So my question – I’m looking for a treat to use for training purposes…’sit’, ‘come’, etc..so not chew toys/bones, but something small to reward him with. He could care less about his food used as the treat, so someone had given us a box of Puppy MilkBones we started with today. Holy Gas Batman!! Obviously not a good choice, so I’d like to figure this out very quickly & get something else on hand. I read about using cut up vegetables or hard boiled eggs? Is that correct?

Thanks for any help or suggestions!

Jennifer

[Naturella]

Oh, my goodness, I absolutely feel the same way – I REALLY need to watch my nutrition and exercise as closely as I watch Bruno’s, so I can be around him and my husband and I’s future human and furry babies longer…

But yes, I have stocked up on Earthborn and Vets Choice Holistic Health Extension for DAYS – a total of 42 lbs of Earthborn (3 varieties @ 14 lbs each), and a total of 12 lbs of HHE (3 varieties @ 4 lbs each), so 54 lbs so far, and I want to now get Victor Ultra Pro (GF) and the Yucon Salmon GF, 15 lbs each – that will be a total of 84 lbs of food for $110 altogether (great coupons I got). I also plan to add raw ground, RMBs, and marrow bones for gnawing as well as dehydrated natural chews… I am a mess… I need to REALLY stop shopping for Bruno after I get the last of Victor, and raw… And watch those “Best by: ” labels!

But yes, if you ever want to come up to Kennesaw to go to that store, and would like to meet up (there is also a great park with dog off-leash areas really close by), you can let me know if you want. You can add me on Facebook, my name is Aleksandra Ninova. 🙂

[Naturella]

Thank you, Marie!

P.S. I found an AMAZING pet food store (mostly for cats and dogs), 5 min away from home, and they sell raw – Blue Ridge Beef, which sounds pretty local for Georgia. I am beyond pumped! It seems very affordable – 3-4lbs frozen ground meat, organs, bones, tripe, and eggs for $5-something! I am in love with this place, let alone the super affordable natural raw and dehydrated chews! 🙂 🙂 🙂

[Jeff33]

I just wanted to say how much I appreciated all the valuable information that everyone has posted on this site. I am a new dog owner..my baby Tioga (English springer spaniel) turns one in a week. I found this site by researching the best type of dog foods available for him. I recently purchased some Orijen red because I thought that was the best food. I’ve since realized that I was wrong and I would like to feed him a raw diet because it’s the healthiest option. I don’t want to make my own raw meals. I’m going with Darwin’s. Here are my questions:

1. Can I feed him Darwin’s (chicken) everyday, without rotating? I thought rotating was only for canned and kibble due to the toxins.

2. Do I need to add anything else to his diet? I know I need to add some bones for his teeth and there are already enzymes in the meat so I don’t need to add that. What about probiotics?

I guess what I’m asking is what is the most basic diet, I was worried that just feeding him Darwin’s isn’t enough, I don’t want him to miss out on any necessary vitamins, minerals etc. due to my lack of knowledge.

Thanks for your help,
Jeff

[Naturella]

Hm… I currently feed an all-grain-free kibble blend of 15lbs of Dr. Tim’s, 4 lbs of Nutrisca chicken, and 4lbs of Vets Choice Holistic Health Extension, all mixed in. He gets about 1 cup of that mix/day, in four feedings or so.

I have heard that pumpkin firms up stools, do you think I should still give it? He has a bowel movement 3 times a day.

I could try to add some fiber, maybe ground flax seed and/or yoghurt to his food? He gets coconut butter at breakfast every other day too. For treats, I am currently using some freeze-dried liver ones, frozen pineapple chunks, baby carrots, kale stems, or his kibble. We have just started adding some raw meaty bones once a week (for now), and I got some great coupons for free canned food, so I will be adding that in too in months to come.

[Naturella]

Wow, it has been a while since I have looked at this topic – never thanked Patty for the useful information, so thank you, Patty!

Well, I finally managed to somewhat comfort my now husband (in my avatar, we got married on Friday), who is usually worried about feeding Bruno (also in my avatar) raw, but today we had a first real venture into it with a piece of pork neck bone and meat. Bruno loved it, and seems quite alright on it. I have 2 more pieces and plan to give them in the next 2 weeks (once a week basically), and see how that goes, and if he continues to be fine, I will see if I can increase it to maybe 2 times a week to 3. I also plan to introduce recreational marrow bones (the small ones, due to fatty marrow) sometime soon and change them once every couple of weeks or so, not so sure about that yet.

But yes, first real all-raw meal was served today and liked a lot. We seem to be in good shape for the occasional raw! 🙂

[Shasta220]

It doesn’t sound like your boys are on good food at all. You have awesome intentions, but the nutritional value just isn’t there.

I really don’t recommend puppy food, especially not ANYTHING under the Purina brand. Look into 4-5 star foods on this site. There are some forums on here with lists of the most affordable ones, as I imagine the food bill to get high.

No no no to hot dogs. They are very very processed, and whatever nutritional values were in them got processed right out. I’d suggest going to your local butcher/grocery store, and buying raw meats/bones like chicken, beef, etc. Those are much better meat sources… And I’d avoid any jerky designed for people too, it has extra salt and often sugar that dogs don’t need. Try making your own jerky by slicing meat and baking it in the oven until it’s chewy. (EDIT: oops, sorry, just saw that you’ll make your own jerky instead of store bought. Good good.)

The other posts have said no over feeding, and I can’t emphasize that enough either. It is especially important that you don’t over feed the puppy, as giant breeds will tend to grow as much as their food intake allows. If they grow more than their body was designed for, it will put horrible stress on their bones/joints, no matter how fit they are as an adult.

Another note on food: it will probably be a bit tough on your wallet when you switch to a premium food, but in reality, the risk is NOT switching. When they’re on quality food, they will need to eat less, much less.
My 90lb APBT mix, Otto, ate 9c of Dog Chow daily, and was still very very lean/fit. When we finally moved him up to a 3-star Nutra Nuggets, he went all the way down to 2c daily with no weight change.
Another miracle story of what food switches will do: we’ve fed our dogs 1-3 star foods for about 10yrs sadly. Our lab had Otitis, and ALWAYS had a disgusting smell to her, as well as hot spots and shedding. She also was acting very lethargic (we figured it was just her age). When we switched her to a quality food, she lost about 5 years of her age in just a few months! She was bouncy, happy, wanted to play fetch, and had ZERO odor to her!

So switching their food will give you amazing benefits, I promise. 😉

• This reply was modified 11 years, 10 months ago by Shasta220.

[Sharon Buchanan]

Sue ~
That 8 lb. chicken was supposed to be just the start until my MPC order came in. I figured I could work out the calcium/bone/organ stuff as I was packing portions from my order. I’m not a veg head but it’s rare when I eat meat and then only certain cuts, so the only thing I found in the freezer was some seasoned lamb, a flank steak and some chicken thighs I had portioned to boil in broth for use as training incentives – I put a tasty chunk in my mouth and Mystery is fixed on me (and when he’s not, I eat it).

I pulled out the flank steak and a couple of thighs. If I didn’t season the flank steak before sealing it up, we ought to get at least another day and a half out of it – no bones though. I do still worry about calcium since Mystery’s only 10 months old. I know they can absorb excess calcium better after six months and he is getting more, but I’m not ready to go all out yet. I just had a great thought – I can always raid my neighbor’s freezer – they’re out of town, assuming I can get the quarter mile up their steep driveway.

Mystery keeps barking at the snow and Falkon keeps attacking the windows as the snow flurries by. We are kinda rural – about 3200′ up in the mountains of NC. Still, when I can get down the mountain, I’m only 20 minutes from the grocery store, Walmart, Sam’s… There’s only five homes up here and only three are occupied year-round. Nice and quiet. With all this snow though, I wish I could let Mystery run wild in it, but he still doesn’t have perfect recall at 10 months old so the best I can do is hook him up to a post on the house and let him roll around in the snow. If it’s decent out tomorrow, maybe I’ll run the 50′ rope around a tree in the yard so I can get some pics of him hopping around.

[Sue’s Zoo]

Sharon,
I’m beginning to wonder if this winter will ever end! Though it sounds like you’re having a rougher time of it than we are in St. Louis. And it sounds like you must be in a fairly rural location. But I think pulling out some of your less expensive cuts to get by is a good idea since you’ve already made a start towards raw. That’s just my two cents from a novice raw-feeder! The stories about your Maine Coon are priceless. I can almost see him as I read. Except for the obvious physical differences his personality reminds me of our tuxedo cat, Gizmo.

As far as managing the bones etc. based on what I’ve read I wouldn’t worry about one feeding or even several but trying to balance it over a week? Maybe longer since Mystery isn’t a puppy? I try to be more careful of the Calcium/Phosphorus ratios with two large breed, fast growing puppies because in a week they can grow significantly and in a month, one of them could easily gain another 10 pounds!

Good luck with the snow and food. Try to stay warm and dry. And keep me posted!

[Shasta220]

I will have to agree with mountainhound. They put lots of chemicals and sugars into kibble that is “chewy.”

I’ve never owned a tiny breed, so I’m not sure how common it is for them to be picky about the food like that. It’s possible that she’s gotten picky from overeating. How much do you feed her daily? If she’s gaining weight, then it’s probably too much. Also, if she refuses /anything/ crunchy (treats, bones, chews, etc.), then she might have a bad tooth, so maybe trying to have a look in her mouth and/or have the vet to an oral exam, just to make sure everything in her mouth is fine.

You’d probably benefit from getting samples from local feed stores, that way you won’t be stuck with a bag’s worth of food if she doesn’t like it. Also, try to leave the new food as an option for a while, not just set it down for a few minutes then pick it back up.

So just make sure you’re feeding her a proper amount so that she goes back to a healthy weight – don’t bother to buy the “light” foods either, they’re just fillers…and don’t feed her what the bag recommends, it ALWAYS suggest way too much (my dogs always get no more than 1/3-1/2 of what the bag says, and they’re a perfect weight). Check out a few different samples from your feed store, and try to find the brand on this site to make sure it’s a 4-5 star food.

If you’re still struggling with getting her to eat, then you could possibly mix some canned food with the dry, or add a little bit of water/chicken broth to the dry to make it moist.

[A.Sandy]

Hi,
What You have is giant breeds lol! The biggest mistake is overfeeding this breed because they suppose to look bulky, but the truth is it’s bad for their hips it puts stress on them.
and please STOP feeding that grocery store junk it will mess your pups up. You can feed a all life stages food for both just feed according to energy level to avoid overweight pets. look in the 4 and 5 star pet foods here at dog food advisor. Try something with no corn, wheat or soy and nothing from china(including treats) Always portion control to prevent from their bones growing too fast and having bowed legs.(believe me I went through that with my dane when he was younger)try buying from a feed store or sometimes hard ware stores have great deals on great food. Avoid vitamin/mineral and calcium supplements that will affect their nutrient absorption. good luck!

-Ana
pet nutrition expert/advisor
@pupfacts
pupcatnutrition.com

[theBCnut]

For fish oil, give her a meal of sardines once a week. And see if you can find a multivitamin that you can give her a piece of a couple times a week. You need to make sure sure she gets enough calcium. Bones are usually the way dogs get calcium, but egg shells work great and eggs are healthy for dogs too. Do an internet search for homemade dog food and you will be able to find some recipes that will give you a good idea of what dogs need. Dogaware dot com is a good place to start. Steve Brown’s book “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” is an ebook, if you can get those.

[Spiffyloo88]

It really is better for dogs to digest cooked veggies. My dog is allergic to wheat, chicken, carrots and rice that we know of so we make him hard boiled eggs and cooked oatmeal and boiled sweet potatoes, at the suggestion of our vet. I also need ideas on supplements to add to his food. We just started a month ago to see if we could clear up his rashes and diarrhea and it did so now we slowly add things one at a time and see how he reacts. I read you can buy like powdered vitamin stuff but I don’t even know where to start.
The poor guy can’t even have flavored chew toys so we have to buy plastic bones it kind of makes me sad for him.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 10 months ago by Spiffyloo88.

[Shasta220]

When you’re looking for meat, I’d recommend trying to ask around to find a butcher, hunter, or even farmer. They’d probably give you the best deal on meat and bones. I know someone who buys her raw meat from, I think, a butcher, and is able to get it for less than 50c per pound.

[Molzy]

Thanks everyone! Tonight went better. I decided to let him eat it in his kennel, hoping he would take his time since he doesn’t have to worry about it being taken away. It worked! He still gulps large portions, but he crunches all the bones first so I think it’s ok. His poops looked fine today (last evening was his first raw) so we are continuing on!

Gonna have to price out some organ meat and additional muscle meat to eventually balance his diet out, but for now he’s still getting breakfast of honest kitchen so I’m not too worried yet.

[Sharon Buchanan]

BernerdAd ~
Just wanted to ditto Patty’s recommendation on pumpkin. It isn’t something I care to eat, but I keep a single can in my pantry just in case. When I have to open it up, another can goes on the grocery list.

Lablubber ~
I can’t remember if I read anywhere the age of your Lab. There’s a number of articles that HDM posted at the very beginning of this topic that address the correct percentage of calcium for large breed puppies. The figures vary somewhat, I chose to take the advice of Dr. Baker and keep Mystery’s calcium nearer to .80 percent. (My Mystery is an English Creme Golden Retriever – healthy adult weight will be about 85 pounds.)

I hadn’t found this forum when I was researching food so I ended up creating my own chart. I looked at calcium percentage as well as ingredients. I wasn’t going to feed junk (by-products, un-named meat meals, synthetic supplements, controversial ingredients – canola oil for one), no matter what the calcium percentage was. But I also wasn’t going to feed what I thought was the best kibble (no preservatives, no grains), if the calcium was higher than I believed it should be. I would have like to have been feeding Mystery Orijen or Acana but their calcium max for LBP is 1.5%. Though they say they try to keep it to the minimum 1%, they’d be okay feeding my dog nearly twice what he should’ve gotten. In the end, I chose Innova LBP kibble.

A simple explanation of the problem with too much calcium is, that a LBP less than six months old does not have the ability to process excess calcium properly. Too much calcium gets deposited on the outside of the bones which then causes bone disease. Again, this is the simple explanation – try reading all the articles HDM posted, some of them are a little more technical, but you’ll learn a lot from them. And don’t expect your vet to be familiar with the LBP study or any of the reports from that study. My vet said he wasn’t sure if he’d read any of them when I first mentioned diet concerns – and tried to make me feel like I couldn’t possibly know what I was talking about.

Back to the age of your Lab. Once a puppy has reached six months of age, he is able to process calcium better but even afterward, calcium still needs to be lower than what a small or medium size puppy can handle. I moved Mystery to Orijen LBP kibble just last month when he was 9 months old. To address your concern regarding transitioning foods, when Mystery’s Innova got down to the last pound, I added a pound of Orjen to it. When that was gone a few days later, it was all Orijen.

As far as expense goes, I considered Innova to be an average priced kibble – compared to Purina, Iams, Science Diet, or any other junk food. Orijen, on the other hand is going to cost more but is worth it – as far as kibble goes. Innova did have a recall last year at the time that I was feeding it to Mystery. I was forced to switch him over to Wellness – the next lowest calcium percentage, but I cringed at every meal because chicken meal is their third ingredient rather than first, and they use Sodium Selenite instead of Selenium Yeast. It looks like Innova has changed their LBP recipe – I don’t know what I’d do now if my only option to feed was kibble to a LBP.

BTW, when Innova had their recall, I had no choice but to switch Mystery to Wellness – without any transition. And my cats have never needed transitioning as I’ve upgraded their food. Obviously, common sense must rule if you see a problem cropping up because of the change.

I have to agree with Patty on Blue. In addition to their minimum calcium percentage being too high, they have three grains in their top five ingredients, they add chicken FLAVOR (why do they need flavoring?), sodium selenite and caramel which is used to make you, the purchaser feel good about the color of their garbage, as if your dog thinks caramel colored food tastes better than beige food. I also don’t like seeing oil of rosemary so high on their ingredient list since we had a Golden that had seizures (if your dog doesn’t have seizures rosemary oil/extract might not be a problem).

In retrospect, I should have started feeding Mystery raw when we first brought him home at 10 weeks instead of waiting until now when he is 10 months old. You will absolutely learn much here at dogfoodadvisor and especially in the forums. I would also suggest, if you have to continue feeding kibble, go to truthaboutpetfood.com and sign up for her free newsletter. She’s also on Facebook if you prefer. I will say though, that I credit Susan Thixton (truthaboutpetfood), with my decision to pursue a raw diet. Of course, it was here at the forums that I received the most encouragement to switch.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 10 months ago by Sharon Buchanan.

[USA]

Hi Molzy

There will always be a risk in feeding a dog raw meaty bones. No one can guarantee you that a bone will never cause harm to your dog. Raw feeders want to feed their dog a similar diet to what wolves eat in the wild, believing it is the most natural and species appropriate.

One thing that I think is often overlooked is that when wolves consume bones they also consume the fur of the animal they are eating. The bone usually comes out the other end of the wolf wrapped in fur. The fur protects the inside of the wolf from being damaged as the bone makes its way through its digestive system.

For the gulping you could try feeding a large piece of frozen meat. The piece should be bigger than your dog’s head. This makes it almost impossible for your dog to just gulp down. Being frozen also makes it difficult to just swallow and could encourage your dog to chew. As long as you are able to take the piece away from your dog before it becomes small enough to swallow or when your dog has eaten enough, a frozen piece of meat larger than your dog’s head is an option.

Another option is raw boneless meat. This method has no danger of your dog being injured from bones. In this method you would have to add a calcium supplement to replace the calcium in the bones.

Reading a book like See Spot Live Longer (more geared to the beginner) or Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet (a little more advanced) both by Steve Brown will help you in preparing nutritionally balanced home prepared raw or cooked meals for your dogs.

I am not a fan of using a metal vice grips or a metal tube to stop your dog from gulping. I am worried that your dog might injure himself by chomping down on them or by trying to swallow the vice grips.

Good Luck with Quincy and LoJack!!!!

[jewel0247]

So… I really am frustrated and need some advice.
My 12 year old dog has been on Embark since October and was eating it well at the beginning (ate 2 meals a day and licked the bowl clean), then I had to add meat toppings for her to eat it… now she doesn’t even bother eating any of it with the toppings! She has done this repeatedly with any dog food; eats it great for 2 months… then stops cold turkey and will go on hunger strikes.

I’ve tried the 15-30 min rule of picking up the food even if she doesn’t eat…. but the problem is because she is old, she will vomit yellow bile if her stomach is too empty. So I really need her to eat 2 meals a day! Her previous owner kept food (milk bones, etc.) out all the time, switched flavors a lot, and 1 meal at night thing.

I don’t think she is ‘sick’… she wants table scraps and begs frequently (still acts her normal self)… and I’ve taken her to the vet multiple times over the summer. They have done blood and urine tests, X-rays, etc… nothing huge was detected. I think she has been fighting off yeast issues; she scratched repeatedly before and smelled yeasty, but is doing much better with that thanks to coconut oil, digestive enzymes, apple cider vinegar and probiotics.

I did get desperate so I bought her nature’s variety instinct can and the kibble; she’s been a hit and miss with that, but now her stool is more loose. Sigh.

Please help

[Shasta220]

Bones do an amazing job, yes, but I will always brush my dogs’ teeth. Cassy had chews/bones her whole life, but I didn’t brush her teeth enough and she needed one pulled. Then our cat is on the raw diet, so she consumes whole bones daily, and she got an infected tooth at age 5.

Certainly though, if brushing is difficult to do, then bones make a close second for good dental care 🙂

[InkedMarie]

Shasta: you don’t have to ever brush your dogs teeth. You can use real bones which do the same job.

[Shasta220]

If you’re getting canned food, be sure to take good care of those teeth with regular brushing 😉 Even though my girl had kibble and regular bones, the time I skipped brushing her teeth was the time she got a nasty infection and needed the tooth pulled 🙁

[theBCnut]

If it is balanced at a 1:1 ratio with just meat, and meat plus bones is a 1:1, then meat + bone + Preference would be 2:1 which is the upper limit for calcium, but still considered balanced.

[Shasta220]

That’s good. I thought the fish bones were great for animals, just wanted to make sure. Picky Maddy sometimes spits them out, but she usually eats 80-90% of them.

[Sharon Buchanan]

Sue’s Zoo ~

I am a nanobyte of information away from going raw. I spent two months researching the best kibble to buy for my Golden puppy and now I’ve spent another eight months researching the best way to feed my growing boy and have come to the conclusion that raw is the way to go. Unfortunately, I am also concerned about balancing not only calcium and phosphorus but everything else, protein, veggies, supplements.

Being at a similar point in the raw decision as you (everyone makes it out to be no big deal but it is intimidating nevertheless), the best I can offer is to share a few things I’ve learned along the way and hope it’s helpful.

Having had a Golden that required double-hip surgery before she was two, proper bone growth was a huge concern for me. If you’ve been to the LBP nutrition forum (/forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/#post-33156), you’ve probably already read some of the suggestions that Hound Dog Mom posted at the beginning of the thread. If you haven’t, do – It would’ve saved me a lot of research time if I’d found the forum ten months ago. Although I waded through the technical jargon in many of the articles, I found the article by Baker most useful and objective. Now that Mystery is 10 months old, I’m allowing more calcium in his diet than Baker’s recommended .8%. I’ve changed his kibble to one with a higher calcium content (from Innova to Orijen), and have started giving him an occasional RMB and raw egg (yeah, puppy steps).

I can’t speak to whether a puppy should eat raw bones until their adult teeth are in except to say that when I asked my breeder about food choices, I was told he starts giving his puppies chicken backs at six months.

As far as balanced nutrition goes, I’ve considered “balanced” frozen raw brands but they really are expensive and there’s much debate as to whether they’re safe. I’ve read so much conflicting, contradictory and even argumentative information that I have to take a few days off research just to clear my head. Sometimes I wonder if I’ll ever get my Mystery off kibble.

That said, I did find an Internet conference (what will they think of next), on feeding raw that is hosted by Dogs Naturally Magazine. You can find more information here: http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/raw-roundup/. It isn’t until the end of the month but I’ve already registered and am hopeful to glean that last nanobyte of information so that Mystery will be eating only raw in March.

[theBCnut]

The bones are a superior form of calcium and the way they cook them should leave the bones soft and digestable.

[Shasta220]

I’m sorry, this is about cat food instead of dog food…

But I recently started Maddy on canned food, and she’s on Natural Balance right now. I noticed in her fish formula (tuna, whitefish, and salmon I think), there are lots of little white bone pieces. Is it good to have bones in the food, or should I try to look for varieties that have deboned proteins in them?

[dogspotindia]

I am agree with your statement that raw bones are good for the dental exercise.

[mountainhound]

Its fine to feed ribs/neck bones etc, but its best to avoid the leg bones because those are weight bearing bones and can fracture teeth.

[kcarter137]

I have a 1 1/2 year old 13 lbs chihuahua mix. She has a long story and I need help so here it is. She has been plagued with various ailments since we acquired her. After a couple months of raw feet and hairless patches on her body I took her to see an allergist/dermatologist. We did a food elimination diet and determined she was severely allergic to chicken, rice, and wheat; somewhat allergic to eggs, dairy, and fish in higher quantities. She has been eating cooked pork, 5-10% cooked liver, 15-20% pureed sweet potatoes with skin on, 15-20% raw beef, and every other day she gets half a sardine or canned salmon. She eats no bone but I supplement with calcium. She takes a glucosamine/chondroitin/msn supplement because she has bad knees. We recently started her on a wild salmon oil because my vet said she needed it also. He also told me that she’s not eating a balanced diet so she also needs a multivitamin. So I ordered one from b-naturals. I don’t know what else I can do for balance her diet out. My other half says we cannot feed her raw or bones. Help, please and thanks in advance!!

[A.Sandy]

Supplements are not recommended if you are already feeding a complete balanced meal because it will cause an unbalance of nutrients instead. and cod liver is actually the oil you have to avoid giving the most because of the high level of vitamin A in will cause liver toxicity ,and finally calcium can cause deficiencies in bones as well. so careful, careful, careful!

-Ana pet nutrition expert/ advisor
@pupfacts
pupcatnutrition.com

[banchara]

I took in a puppy who I found scared and swollen in my back yard. No one claimed her, so she is part of our pack now. It seemed she had been on the road long enough for her paws to be raw and her whole body was swollen. As the swelling went down, we realized she was not going to be as big as we originally thought, but she is probably just under a year and weighs around 40 lbs.

She actually looks VERY much like Pattyvaughn’s profile pic…(btw, Pattyvaughn, are you originally from KC, KS)

She is quite skinny and despite being fed 24oz homemade (50% protein, 25% rice, 25% veggies) food per day. Her hip bones are still prominant, her spine is easily felt, and the back half her ribs are visible (well, you know what I mean). I have no idea what her target size will be, so I’m not sure if I need to up her food even more, or possibly supplement with kibble.

The other piece of the puzzle is that she nearly died from rodenticide poisoning in November and had to be kept completely quiet for about a month. I’m wondering if some of her skinny is due to lack of muscle tone from that period. She loves to run and bound, her fur is nice and shiny. The vet says she is healthy, otherwise.

Any guidance is appreciated!

[Parr]

GSDMommy89,

I also have a GSD, she is just over a year old. I also feed her Earthborne, and use Meadowfeast. She really likes that one, but towards the end of the bag, she isn’t as excited about it as she is at the beginning. I do rotate her foods and use toppers for some meals and meaty bones a few times a week. The one brand of dry food she seems to always like is, Canine Caviar, Open Sky, or Wilderness. She will follow me in when I bring in the new bag and sniffs the bag like crazy and bugs me until I open it, then she sticks her head in and tries to eat from the bag. It is much more expensive and you have to feed less of it since it is higher calories, I think, but she loves it. So you might try that brand in your rotation. I hope this helps. I’ve gotten so much help from everyone here in the past, I hope this little bit of info helps you as well. Take care.

[DogFoodie]

Hi Ferrari4204,

I’m not too far from you in NW Indiana. I feed a variety of foods including commercial raw and I also came across a local product that I’ve found very interesting and gaining some popularity locally. I haven’t tried it myself yet and need to do a little bit more research into the product. Problem is, they don’t have a website and basically do all of their business locally, through word of mouth. When I was wanting more information about their products, I called the business and left a voice mail. The owner promptly returned my call, but unfortunately I missed his and haven’t made an effort to connect with him since. I was impressed how quickly he called me back and his responsiveness to my call.

My local product is called J.J. Fuds. I remember when I was a kid and JJ Fuds was a local butcher shop with a master sausage maker at the helm. Who knew there was such a thing as a master sausage maker, but there is. From what I understand, the family has over 100 years of sausage makers and their fine German craftsmanship has been passed down for generations. Kinda cool ~ artisan products are special.

My local operation is still owned by the same family. They prepare their raw dog foods in a USDA inspected facility and all of their raw meat and bones are USDA inspected product as well.

So, small local business, no advertising and no shipping. I have found a couple of websites that’ll ship the product, but am guessing they must also be local and their prices are higher plus the added shipping cost makes it pretty expensive. The company seems to be fine with their local niche market.

It’s very affordable and half the price of other commercial raw diets. The manufacturer delivers the product himself to some local pet food stores and groomers straight from their processing facility.

So, I haven’t tried my local product yet; but, now that you reminded me, I’m putting it back on my to-do list. : )

Here’s a sample ingredient list from JJ Fuds Tender Beef Chunks Dinner:

Ingredients:
Beef, Beef organ meat (Heart, Liver, Kidney, Tripe), Fresh Whole Eggs, carrots, Celery, Sweet potato, Flax Seed, Cranberries, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Suppliment, Vitamin B-12 Suppliment, Niacin, Iron Sulfate, Vitamin A, Acetate, Copper Sulfate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Monoitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Biotin, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Sodium Selenite

[Melissaandcrew]

Diamond extreme athlete is from the naturals line. Hi energy is bare bones bottom rung . If you can find it in your area and your dogs sre not fat sensitive abady granular is almost 800cals per cup. Diamond EA is as I said in the fat/protein content but much lower calorie. Years ago we used Diamond EA in the rescue program for thin dogs. It worked fine but abady is better.

[kaylee1989]

Oh yeah, sorry about that. I meant recreational. I’m not opposed to giving consumable, if its good for him though. So you would recommend beef rib bones for recreational? I have been looking at GI bones from Merrick and want to order them since they are made in the USA. Nobody carries them in stores around me though. I wanted to make sure they were worth it before I ordered them online.

Are femur bones bad to give then? I just went to a meat marker and asked if they had any bones that people give their dogs and that’s what they gave me :/.

[pugmomsandy]

Do you mean consumable bones or recreational bones? Femurs (weight bearing bones) are usually recreational and are too hard to eat and some hard chewers can break teeth on them but femurs have fatty marrow inside (be careful if he’s not used to eating fat) that has calories of course. I find that beef rib bones last a long time since they are too hard to eat for my small dogs and mine also like Merrick GI Bones. Kroger has started carrying small pork marrow bones sometimes. For consumable bones, I’ll give mine pork ribs and chicken parts including feet, duck necks, turkey necks. Merrick also carries raw turkey necks but it’s probably cheaper to get them at the grocery store. If they eat a whole neck or chicken leg, then I just give them some treats the rest of the day. They’ll still get one meal if they get a pork rib bone. I use “food” as treats (freeze dried raw nibletts, freeze dried liver or other meat). I weigh me dogs once a month and adjust accordingly. I usually give a RMB 3 times a week to eat otherwise, they chew on the gnawing bones anytime.