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OH MY GOSH!!! You guys are hysterical!! 🙂
Cyndi and Dori are correct. I did get blocked from posting to the Purina Veterinary Exchange Facebook page. 🙂 I posted much more than below but this will give you an idea.
They recently posted an article about reasons not to feed “people food” to dogs which drummed up a LOT of negative feedback for them. I was actually one of the nice (well, polite) ones on the page. 🙂
1. I asked them if they felt veterinary nutritionist Meg Smart (who taught veterinary nutrition) was incorrect when she stated “I see a benefit in feeding whole foods whether cooked or raw.” http://www.angryvet.com/angryvet-nutrition-interview-drs-joseph-wakshlag-and-meg-smart/#sthash.fVPLTfI9.dpuf They ignored my question but warned me about marketing for other sites.
2. Sugar is apparently added for “texture and fiber”. But do the nutritionists and vets who formulate Purina diets, specifically Beneful, really feel that sugar is an appropriate ingredient for dogs? They told me this page was for their prescription line and that my question was “off topic”. Keep in mind that the original post was about “human foods” like “milk”, “raw eggs” etc. 🙂 I actually don’t disagree with most of the points they were trying to make (adding foods could alter the balance of the already balanced diet). It was their delivery that was the problem.
3. They posted info about their new HA line for allergies. These foods have been chemically hydrolyzed to break the proteins down into amino acids which makes them less likely to cause an allergic reaction (as the body is allergic to proteins not amino acids). However proteins that have been hydrolyzed create the same issue as monosodium glutamate — which has been shown to cause illnesses like diabetes, heart disease, white matter brain lesions, multiple sclerosis etc. So I asked Purina if dogs were “immune” to the problems associated with MSG in humans. They told me to check with my vet on what my dog might be immune to. Uhm??? So I explained I meant all dogs, not just mine. They ignored the question. Then I linked this article by vet Dr. Shawn Messonnier suggesting dog are affected by “excitotoxins” like those in Purina HA. http://www.byregion.net/articles-healers/Dr_Shawn.html Still ignored the question.
4. They also posted an article stating “Many people have turned to gluten-free diets to help them lose weight & feel better, but the fact remains that very few dogs’ diets are improved by going gluten-free.” So I asked them if they had done testing to demonstrate that gluten couldn’t cause “gluten ataxia” in dogs (gluten ataxia is a neurological disease in humans caused by gluten). I linked articles discussing gluten’s role in other diseases in humans, like type 1 diabetes (the kind dogs get) and asked if any testing had been done.
I also linked a Journal of Nutrition page demonstrating dogs can lose weight on a HIGH protein diet (52% was the diet tested). This is about the time they blocked me and deleted all of my comments.
I don’t feel too bad cause they deleted most of the negative and questioning comments on their page from others too. 🙂
My guess is that you would be asked to leave, or appropriately quieted, if you started asking questions like this but if it’s boring and you want to stir the pot a bit….. 🙂
I LOVE Panera salads and more importantly, my 3 year grandson who is gluten intolerant loves their salads. Especially the apple one although he gives me all his pecans.. Woot woot 🙂
I think maybe they just don’t know what to say to help but they want to try to make you feel better!! As I noted in my first post Dr. Dressler says tcbc is very treatable.
You also can’t beat yourself up over choices you’ve made up to this point or from this point forward. Everything we do, we do with our pups best interest in mind.. If you weren’t treating and she got heartworm you would have been kicking yourself for not giving her the preventatives. We all do the best we can with the information we have at the time. You simply can’t do better than that!!!
I definitely would hold off starting too many supplements (unless made from food) to make sure one doesn’t counter or have a negative reaction with another etc. My dad is a Master Herbalist and I know he would give me some guidance if needed — if some of the supps are herbal that is. The food ones (if therapeutic) I would introduce slowly so as not to initiate to fast of a healing. I also think it is VERY important for you to read Dr. Goldsteins chapter on the healing crisis in his book. Do you have a library close?
You can reach me any time tomorrow from 10:00 am to 8:00 pm Central time. Tomorrow is house cleaning / laundry day. We may go out for lunch or dinner but otherwise I’ll just be cleaning. Try to get some restful sleep tonight.
Oh Dori!!!!!!!! I’m so very sorry.
I did a quick google search and found that apoptosis and antiangiogenosis are both effective treatments of Transitional Cell Bladder Carcinoma (which I’m going to abbreviate to tcbc for the rest of the post). Then I googled “Dr Demian Dressler tcbc”. Dr. Dressler owns the website “dog cancer blog”. There is a video of him and his partner (who is an veterinary oncologist) specifically on tcbc. They say it is very treatable!! GOOD Dr. D also specifically mentions it responds to apoptosis. GOOD The video is here http://www.dogcancer.tv/transitional-cell-carcinoma-what-you-need-to-know-about-your-dogs-cancer/
As a quick reminder — apoptosis is when the cells of the body get old, damaged or unhealthy (like cancer) and commit “suicide”. It is normal and supposed to happen but sometimes it doesn’t happen (due to certain drugs or bacteria/virus or other reasons). Angiogenosis is when new blood vessels are formed (this happens with healing but tumors also cause these blood vessels to grow to them which supplies them with the nutrition they need to grow). ANTIangiogenic products (medications and foods/supplements) cause those blood vessels to die which blocks nutrients from getting to the tumor and the tumor starves to death.
Dr. Dressler and Ettinger recommend a home cooked “cancer” diet. BUT, Dr. Martin Goldstein is well known for great success with dogs that other vets have given up on due to cancer. Dr. Goldstein recommends a species appropriate raw diet. That said, they both also utilize other treatments and supplements. If the finances allow, I think his office (Dr. Goldstein) would be a great one to get a consult with (by phone if nothing else – they are in New York (or is it New Jersey?)). I personally would stick with raw but you have to do what you think is best for Hannah.. Both raw and cooked are appropriate for different reasons in my opinion.
Okay, so we know that tcbc responds to apoptotic and antiangiogenic products. With that in mind I would DEFINITELY start turmeric or even curcumin (which is the anti-cancer active ingredient in turmeric). Turmeric also has additional benefits so maybe both versus one or the other?? If buying turmeric it MUST be organic as otherwise it could be irradiated. I would also start the enzyme bromelain away from meals as it induces both apoptosis and antiangiogenosis. As does fresh garlic (pending there is no blood loss, surgery, anemia). Garlic could also kill bacteria and viri if an happen to be blocking apoptosis. Also help with bladder infections if that is a concern? Dr. Ettiger, in the above video, says that can be a concern.
Other antiangiogenic foods are blueberries, mushrooms, strawberries etc. More antiagiogenic foods here http://blog.ted.com/2010/02/10/dr_william_lis/ Dr. Li states that antiangiogenic foods work synergistically so the more you can add to the diet the better off. Not all in one meal or one day of course.
Some other supplements known, in the holistic world at least, to help with cancer are apricot seeds (due to their high amounts of vitamin b17), essiac tea (which includes a bunch of anti-cancer herbs), flor essence (a specific brand of essiac like tea), coconut oil (not sure it actually helps the cancer? but it will help keep the calories up in a pancreas friendly way and has so many other benefits), probiotics (help the immune system and have been shown to help “bladder cancer” I believe through the fatty acids (like butyric and lactic acids) they produce), enzymes given with the food will help for the most complete digestion and nutrient absorption plus allow (many think) the metabolic enzymes to be spared from having to help with digestion (especially in older dogs). I know there’s more I’m not thinking of. I’ll post again if/when I think of them.
Call or email me ANY TIME if you want.
Great advice BCnut!! 🙂
Hi Kayley L,
BCnut is absolutely correct. Kibble is the absolute WORST thing you can feed a dog with kidney disease. My dog was born with kidney disease, diagnosed at age one and will be eight years old next month. She has been on HIGH protein raw her whole life. Much higher than 30% even. Her raw diet (I rotate between proteins and brands) ranges from 45 to 54% on a dry matter basis.
The original research suggesting protein was problematic was actually done on rats not dogs or cats. Later research, done on dogs, has disproven the original research but for some reason vets cling to this original research. Nutritionist Mary Straus has some different sources discussing the protein myth on her page here http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidneyprotein.html
Phosphorus can be a probelm at any stage of the disease but it isn’t always a problem in the earlier stages. Audrey, in her eight years with kidney disease, has never been on a lower phosphorus diet. Mary lists generally accepted amounts of phosphorus in the diet for the different stages of the disease on this page. http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidneydiet.html#start
When digested, proteins break down into amino acids. The body uses those amino acids to make antioxidants (glutathione), enzymes, new cells etc. What the body doesn’t use ends up as blood urea nitrogen. How well the body uses the amino acids in any particular protein is called bioavailability. I noticed last night that Dr. Foster’s and Smith website has a good explanation of protein bioavailability. They write
“Can I tell which proteins are better than others?
Not all proteins are created equal, and some are better for pets than others. Every protein source contains different levels of amino acids and each protein is different in its ability to be broken down into amino acids. The ability of a protein to be used by the body and its amount of usable amino acids is termed biological value. Egg has the highest biological value and sets the standard by which other proteins are judged. Egg has a biological value of 100. Fish meal and milk are close behind with a value of 92. Beef is around 78 and soybean meal is 67. Meat and bone meal and wheat are around 50 and corn is 45. Things like hair and feathers would be very high in protein but would be down at the bottom of the list for biological value.” http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?aid=459Removing chemicals in the environment that have to be cleared through the kidneys can help too. These chemicals may not be harmful but as another thing for the kidneys to clear they still can be problematic. Anything that could be inhaled or get absorbed through the paw could be potential problems. Giving clean (filtered) water can be very important too.
Mary has some really good info on her site if you get a chance to read through it all. Nutritionist Lew Olson of b-naturals.com also has some data on her site (along with a couple recipes). Darwin’s has a high protein, lower phosphorus raw diet that was formulated by Dr. Barbara Royal DVM if interested in raw but not wanting to have to prepare it.
There’s so much more that you can do as well. Let us know if you are interested in the additional info.
Thanks BCnut! 🙂
Hi Lorraine B.,
The stage of the disease, and complicating factors, is the determining factor as to what types of diet are appropriate and not. Vets are often quick to recommend a prescription kidney diet when it is not really the best option. Example, Royal Canin states that the RC MP Modified food is designed for “late stage” kd.
“Royal Canin Veterinary Diet Renal LP Modified Dry Dog Food is a palatable, high energy, and highly digestible diet that has been formulated to aid in the management of late stage chronic kidney disease in adult dogs.” http://www.chewy.com/dog/royal-canin-veterinary-diet-renal-lp/dp/33956?utm_source=google-product&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=f&utm_content=179&utm_term=&gclid=CJyTl_PZl74CFbTm7AodKyIA1wAnd, in my opinion, the ingredients in the kibbled diet are HORRIFIC for any dog but really bad for a dog with kd. The goal when feeding a kd dog is to feed “high quality protein”. The proteins used in this food (corn gluten meal and wheat gluten) are anything but “high quality”.
The canned food is a bit better but still may be too low in protein for the early stages of the disease. In the earlier stages it is often not necessary (OR ADVISABLE) to lower protein. But it is important to feed high quality proteins and to potentially limit the amount of phosphorus.
My pup has had kidney disease for eight years (as of next month) and this is a food I would NEVER feed her for any reason.
To clarify — Dr. Dodds is still not recommending “against” raw diets but is certainly warning about feeding an imbalanced raw diet… Something myself, BCnut, HDM and many other raw feeders here completely agree with..
This is what Dr. Dodds says about raw (same article as above).
“The rationale behind the concept of BARF (an acronym for Biologically Appropriate Raw Food) is that this is the type of diets dogs were programmed to eat during their evolutionary development (6). Therefore, the BARF diet represents a biologically-appropriate food for dogs, rather than cooked or processed foods. With a BARF diet, the perfect meal would contain muscle meat, bone, fat, organ meats, vegetable and fruit materials combined in precisely the correct balance, just as nature intended.”Hi Dori,
One of the key differences between holistic practitioners (truly holistic that is) and allopathic practitioners is that the holistic ones see a change (even if still in normal ranges) as a possible “sign” that something might be going on. Rather than dismissing a mildly high liver enzyme they would treat it even if no sympotms are present. Dr. Becker refers to this as the “grey area”. If you think about it, it makes sense. The body doesn’t just become ill one day. The kidneys lose function before symptoms are seen. The liver is quite stressed before liver enzymes become abnormal. Cancer has already taken a foothold when cancer is usually diagnosed. I love how Certified Clinical Nutritionist Radhia Gleis describes it “you wait till the horse is out of the barn, you wait till there’s symptoms and on a scale from zero to one hundred, a hundred being absolute perfect health and zero being death, we don’t start to really experience sympotms until we’re at about 30. So 60% of the vital energy of the body is diminished and then all of the sudden the body is knocking on the door saying there’s something seriously wrong. At that point pathology has set in or disease is already set in and the horse is already out of the barn.” She says “Our job is to catch you when you are in a biochemical imbalance, and restore that balance before disease and symptoms starts to manifest.” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMiBuAWvDB0
Holistically speaking, symptoms are an expression of disease, or imbalance in the body, that has been present but not addressed.
That doesn’t change anything you are dealing with now but I kinda wanted to address how truly holistic practitioners look at and treat versus how allopathic practitioners handle things. Cyndi, if you are reading this, I’m still available to talk but the last few weekends got away from me. I WILL make myself available this weekend any time if you want (well any time after 10:00 am Central time that is). 🙂 You have my number, just call when it is convenient for you…. Dori the offer is open to you as well if you ever want to email or talk..
Starting another post to address you questions as this one is long already…
Hi Gina,
My toy breeds (I have eight) and foster dogs (Boston Terriers and Papillons) all get raw or some raw. Between my own and my foster dogs, I’ve had more than 30 dogs on raw and never had a problem with even one of them to date. I actually have had two foster dogs that could not digest kibble well at all but did fantastic on raw.
For the record, I do have one dog that I will not feed raw edible bones to as she is a gulper and has choked on chew treats before. If she tries to swallow a chew treat that is too large she is likely to try to swallow a bone that is too large. I mainly feed ground, commercial raw but wanted to mention that..
My Pomeranian Gizmo is also “poultry” intolerant. She gets bloody, liquid diarrhea (ulcerative colitis) from chicken. Duck, turkey, pheasant, quail and even ostrich cause eye goobers and coughing but doesn’t seem to affect her digestive tract (at least that is noticeable). At least not with short term feeding. She has absolutely no issue at all with any form of egg though. Not saying your baby will be the same just saying it is possible to be intolerant of poultry muscle proteins while being okay with egg, liver and other proteins from poultry.
After getting Gizmo off of chicken (she was about two at the time) it took about a year for her immune system to calm down. It took several months before I stopped seeing mucous in the stool if I remember correctly. Sometimes the stool was also a little partially mushy, or off and on, during the withdrawal (or detox) phase.
I used a fish based product called SeaCure to help repair her gut faster (again, it took about 2(ish) months for the gut but about a year for the immune system). Having your girl on medications could slow the healing process as the body also has to filter the drugs?? OHHH, NSAID’s of any sort (like Rimadyl) still to this day cause colitis in her after being on it for more than two to three days.
Pepcid AC makes protein digestion harder as it neutralizes the hydrochloric acid that is required in the process of breaking down proteins. For this reason some feel it can be counter productive. At the very least it is going to make the pancreas have to work harder to get the protein from the food. Glutamine is a supplement that is given to help with stomach damage. Glutamine is also an amino acid in protein. If the protein can’t be digested than the glutamine is not released for the body (and gut) to use. Many of us chose to use apple cider vinegar instead of an antacid. Here’s an article written by a Certified Nutrition Consultant if interested (she mentions the use of ACV for dogs in the article) http://www.naturalnutritionadvisor.com/blog/?p=73 (SeaCure helps in much the same way — it is simply fish protein that has been broken down to its simplest form allowing for the glutamine and other amino acids be easily utilized by the body.)
Hoping you are able to get it all figured out and get her healthy very quickly!! I can honestly say I know what you are going through!!!!
Edit — I agree with Shasta. If you can do raw (or a commercial cooked diet) it is SO much easier to control the ingredients!!!
Dr. Tabitha,
So great to have you here!! Checked out your website and I really like your article titled “Food Therapy for Animals”. One of my favorite quotes is from Dr. Royal Lee “One of the biggest tragedies of human civilization is the precedence of chemical therapy over nutrition.”
Hope to see more from you!!!
Edit — I am intrigued by the use of warming/cooling etc foods but am woefully ignorant on the topic….
Hi Cathy,
Sorry for the delay… The absolute WORST thing you can feed sprite bar none is any form of kibble. Kibble is hard to digest and because of the lower quality of the protein it creates more BUN when compared to an equal amount of digested protein from another source.
AND, your vet is incorrect if he/she told you to feed low protein in the early stages of the disease unless there is significant protein in the urine. Testing has confirmed that lowering protein too low can actually increase all cause mortality. They have also proven that protein does not damage the kidneys. Because of this you don’t need to feed “low” protein until Sprite has advanced symptoms. Limiting protein even at later stages does not help the kidneys but it does help with symptoms which are caused by the increase of BUN etc in the blood. Limiting protein is not helpful however in the later stages of the disease limiting phosphorus is highly advisable. Phosphorus builds in the blood and CAN damage the kidneys. In the earlier stages of the disease phosphorus is often not detrimental.
For the record, my pup has had kd since birth and has been on HIGH protein raw (45 to 54% on a dry matter basis) since coming to me at nine weeks of age. She will be eight years old the end of June this year and is still doing well. The only time she shows symptoms such as vomiting is if I feed her kibble. The Honest Kitchen is a good food but I’d go with Love or Zeal and add extra good quality fats like coconut oil to increase calories and make her feel more satiated without extra protein/phosphorus. Canned (or better yet raw) tripe is another good option and can be fed with the HK or as a separate meal (pending you get one that is complete and balanced).
As noted, increasing fat keeps the calories up while lowering phosphorus per calorie consumed. This is very important in the later stages.
Other things to consider:
I HIGHLY recommend a product by Standard Process called Canine Renal Support. Audrey has been on it since I learned of her diagnosis. It helps to keep inflammation at bay.
Give Sprite access to all the water she wants but do make sure it is pure — reverse osmosis as an example. Adding toxins in via the water source only increases symptoms. Science has shown benefit to giving waters higher in calcium with low sodium. They didn’t identify actual names but Evian seems to fit the bill.
I HIGHLY recommend giving a HIGH quality probiotic and a specific type of prebiotic (known as nitrogen traps). The combination of these two products helps clear BUN etc from the blood sparing the kidneys from having to do the work. It also allows for even higher amounts of protein. I use Garden of Life’s Primal Defense (human product) and Fiber35 Sprinkle Fiber (human product).
There are other supplements that are known to be beneficial such as food grade activated charcoal, spirulina, burdock root, organic turmeric and more. I mix a combination of these and others with a digestive enzyme and some of the Sprinkle Fiber and add a bit to every meal.
The products you use in your home can be problematic too. When Audrey was diagnosed I looked at the CDC and material safety data sheets for product ingredients I used in my home. Many (if not most) of them were not kidney friendly so I got rid of them and use only ones that are not damaging to kidneys. Example — clorox has a chemical that can damage kidneys in animals. From the material safety data sheet “2-Butoxyethanol has been shown to cause red blood cell hemolysis in laboratory animals and secondary injury to the kidney and liver. However, humans appear to be resistant to this effect” Clorox is pretty toxic anyway so I don’t even have it in the house but if you choose to use it, might be wise not to use it to clean the floors as it can be absorbed through the skin. http://www.thecloroxcompany.com/downloads/msds/cloroxprofessionalproducts/409nqf.pdf
I know I’m forgetting some things… 🙁 Let me know if you have any questions. Also Mary Straus’ website discusses the data I’ve mentioned above plus much much more. Very valuable source of information. She lists kibbles but she fed her own KD dog raw and believes in raw. You don’t have to feed raw but I HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY suggest avoiding going back to any kibble. http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidney.html
You and Sprite are in my prayers!!!!
That’s wonderful that the Vetco vet was able to give you some more useful information!! I agree, would have been nice to know earlier.
Thanks Cyndi 🙂 I found some more of him that I put on disk but forgot the cd at home. His new owner changed his name from Biscuit to Yoda. Not sure where Biscuit came from but he needed to be a Taz or Turbo or something more like that. 🙂
From what I’ve read, Ivermectin is still quite effective beyond the 30 days. I had the following printed out and in my pile of papers to read at home. Was cleaning in an attempt to find Kipee and Tumbleweeds birth dates. Anyhoo, the data dated 2013 reads
“For Heartgard-30 (Merial, Duluth, GA), the target was simply heartworm prevention. According to the original new animal drug application (NADA), 1 “of the 83 dogs treated at monthly intervals in natural infection trials, or treated 30 days after induced infection, with doses of ivermectin at 3.0 mcg/kg or greater, only 2 dogs developed infections. [Author’s note: The 2 dogs that were positive were dogs that had each received 3.0 mcg/kg on day 30 after having been infected with approximately 50 L3.] Even when the treatment interval was extended to 45 or 60 days following infection, only 2 of 88 dogs given ivermectin at 6.0 mcg/kg or more developed infections.” 1 Dogs receiving 6 mcg/kg at 45 and 60 days were negative at necropsy. Thus, the minimum effective dose of 6.0 mcg/kg monthly was chosen.”Here’s what they say about Advantage Multi
“For Advantage Multi for Dogs (Bayer Animal Health, Shawnee Mission, KS), 6 the dosage was chosen based on an established minimum effective dose for moxidectin against intestinal nematodes. It was shown, however, that 2.5 mg moxidectin/kg protected all 44 dogs treated 33 to 34 days after inoculation and 12 dogs treated 45 days after inoculation.” http://www.wvc.org/images/session_notes_2013/2013_S3D.pdfTreating every 35 days with Heartgard, as you did, should have been more than sufficient unless the worms were already there or a resistant strain.
Hmmm Losul, I think I’d want the x-ray or ultrasound for sure then.. As Patty said, even if it shows nothing it tells you something. I know I have been told that they can determine the extent of the infection but I don’t recall how.
I found the below, regarding staging, on Dogaware
“Heartworm infection is divided into four or five stages (depending on the model used), based on the severity of the infestation and the age and health of the dog.Stage 1 (mild) consists of young, healthy dogs with no symptoms and minimal changes evident on X-rays.
Moderate (stage 2) infection will show heartworm disease that is evident on X-rays, but symptoms are minimal, mostly coughing. Stage 3 is a severe infection, with weight loss, coughing, difficulty breathing, more damage visible on X-rays, along with liver and/or kidney damage.
Stage 4 and 5 are considered critical, with the dog often collapsing in shock. These dogs will not survive ordinary heartworm treatment, and must have the worms surgically removed if they are to have any hope of survival.”
Has he coughed at all? I did a QUICK google search and didn’t see anything linking shaking with heartworm disease. I did see “tremors” so googled “tremors heartworm”. All I got from that is side effects of preventatives.. May just be coincidental??
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