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Topic: New to this forum….
I had replied under shiatsu then read advice on how to post. I am desperate. My vet said science diet for sensitive stomachs but it is junk I’m told…..One of my beagles has beef allergy. The last two years, I have been testing and searching for a dry kibble that won’t make his stomach so loud and gassy in the morning where he wants grass and will vomit. He will eat boiled chicken but I need a limited ingredient, sensitive stomach food. He’s been on Eukanoba Response FP (just disliked after ten years), TOW venison, Acana fish, Fromms fish, Blue Wilderness salmon, Earthborn lamb, Blue Wilderness Chicken SENIOR. He likes chicken and lamb. Problem is the gurgling and he won’t eat in the morning. He throws a few times a week. I hear his tummy across the room. Blood test good, stool test good. HELP!! ,
Hi Nat R –
Just so you know, no studies exist demonstrating that protein has negative effects on giant breed puppies or adults – anything you read about this is myth and nothing more. There is, however, a lot of research proving the protein is not harmful.
Feeding Large Breed Puppies by Susan Winn DVM (Featured in IVC Journal)
“A common misconception found in many internet articles is the claim that dietary protein should be controlled in large breed puppies to prevent skeletal abnormalities. This theory was disproved some years ago (Nap, 1991). Most commercial puppy foods contain more protein than is thought necessary, but studies have shown that protein contents of 23% to 31% (dry matter) do not have a deleterious effect on growth.”
“Decades ago, we considered some adult diets appropriate for puppies. However, a calorie-calcium mismatch is probably common. Adult maintenance foods are often less calorically dense than puppy foods. Additionally, these diets may have calcium and phosphorus levels that are higher in relation to energy density than a large breed puppy diet. If a rapidly growing puppy has to eat more food to obtain enough calories for growth, a calcium overdose is possible.”
“Most nutritionists recommend that large, fast growing puppies eat diets containing AT LEAST 30% protein and 9% fat (dry matter basis).”
The Effect of Breed Size on Nutritional Considerations for Growing Puppies
“Excessive intake of dietary protein has been suggested as a contributing factor to skeletal developmental problems, such as osteochondrosis, in large breed dogs. This hypothesis was tested by feeding Great Dane puppies either 15%, 23% or 32% dietary protein (13%, 21% or 29% of energy). While the low protein diet reduced growth, no detrimental effects from the higher protein diets were observed.”
This is a FANTASTIC article (one of my favorites) on large breed nutrition written by Susan Lauten PhD – I would HIGHLY recommend reading it in its entirety, however here are some of the highlights:
Nutritional Risks to Large-Breed Dogs: From Weaning to the Geriatric Years
“Currently, no evidence exists to suggest that high-protein intake contributes to the development of orthopedic disease in growing large-breed puppies. Previous studies suggesting a risk for high protein and DOD were confounded by higher energy intake in high-protein foods. In general, large-breed puppy diets are formulated to contain approximately 30% protein (DMB) similar to other puppy foods.”
“…feeding adult foods to large-breed puppies before 1 year of age is not recommended because the calcium-to-energy ratio is generally lower in adult foods compared with large-breed puppy food. Feeding an adult food can actually result in greater intake of calcium than feeding puppy foods. Because the puppy must consume a larger portion of adult food to meet energy needs for growth, total calcium intake may actually be higher than with a properly formulated large-breed puppy formula.”
Here is the link to a study done on Great Dane pups that was featured in the Journal of Nutrition. The study concluded: “the differences in protein intake per se did not affect the occurrence of disturbed skeletal development in young Great Danes.”
Do You Know What to Feed Your Large Breed Dog? By Karen Becker DVM
“Studies have repeatedly concluded dietary protein levels have no effect on the development of skeletal problems in large and giant breed dogs. But still today, many breeders of large dogs, owners and even some veterinarians will tell you protein is the problem, even though there is no evidence to prove it. Protein excess is not the problem. In fact, it’s often a dietary protein deficiency that contributes to skeletal problems.”
You may find this of interest as well. Here Dr. Becker interviews a Newfie breeder (not Great Danes I know – however Newfies are generally considered to be a giant breed). This breeder feeds his dogs HIGH protein raw and his dogs don’t experience many of the health problems typical to giant breed dogs and his dogs live much longer than most giant breeds (he had a dog live to be 17 – the typical life span of a giant breed is about 8).
Sorry to bombard you with reading, but large breed nutrition is one of my favorite subjects and I like to make sure people have the facts. 🙂
Hi all,
I noticed Acana is changing their Singles line very soon to include legumes over oats and through some research it seems that this is a very controversial change. On top of that, it seems people are very unhappy with Champion overall.
A few years ago, when I worked at an independent dog food shop, I had the opportunity to learn about how they made their food, how they ensure freshness, etc and I was really impressed. On top of that, they were a Canadian company and I really wanted to support a local food, especially given some of their proteins were sourced from literally neighbouring towns from me. I basically intended to feed Champion to my future pup.
Fast forward a few years, I have an Aussie pup name Indie, who came to me on TOTW Wetlands but I switched him off due to the calcium/phos levels and didn’t feel it was fitting for a growing pup. Thought “Why don’t I try Acana?” I was familiar with their practices and they are local so I switched him to Acana Duck and Bartlett Pear at about 3 months old, and he has been on it since. He’s 9 months now, for reference.
He’s done well on the Acana, albeit a bit of a finicky eater and could have slightly better stools (usually when he isn’t eating full meals), and we’ve recently started a rotational diet. He’s actually almost done his first bag of Acana Chicken and Potato, which is when I discovered the Acana formula changes in researching what food to put in the rotation next. Obviously there are still people out there who support Champion, but I read about many who are very against them, and those people have gotten to me. I’m a natural worry wart when it comes to Indie. I mean, what’s the consensus? Is Champion really just going downhill? I’ve never been opposed to other companies but now I’m feeling driven to find an alternative in case they aren’t the company they used to be.
I feel like a fish out of water, like I’m starting fresh in the food world again. I just feel like I am unsure where to go from here. My pup has been on both GF and grain-inclusive and I haven’t developed a preference. Since he’s not a big eater and is on the skinny side, I am inclined to keep him with a grain-inclusive food but I feel like I just don’t know anymore haha. He has no aversion to any protein so the world is essentially my oyster and it’s stressing me out.
I don’t know what advice I’m looking for but if any one has any insight at all. Let me know!
I have 3 pugs (6yrs old) & a pekingese(5 yrs old). The pugs have had a weight problem, mostly due to our mistake in allowing them to free feed as they wanted. Our vet convinced us to feed 1/2 cup 2x daily & treat them with green beans , carrots or apples. We have been doing this for 5 1/2 mo & they have lost weight and are doing great. They are on Natural Balance Fat Dogs. I’m concerned that perhaps the Natural Balance is not high enough quality, & I keep hearing of recalls & quality control since they were purchased by Delmonte.
I’ve been considering Orijen. My concern there is I read about the high protein content being dangerous. I also prefer a grain free food for them to avoid the problems that a diet with grains can cause.
Any advise would be so greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance!
Topic: Cancer
Hi! I am not new to Dog Food Advisor but am a new member. I have a JRT mix who is 9. He had what was to be a wart on the inside of his left ear (for about a year)- my vet tried to freeze it off but all it did was bleed for about four hours. He ran a few tests and it was found that it was a mast cell tumor. It eventually fell off (looks great), I took him to the best oncologist who gave me a couple options. Chemo or take the ear off. Also, I was luck as the cancer had not spread to any parts of his body. I chose chemo – which the first treatment almost wiped him out! The oncologist said he’s in the 2% of dogs who have such a bad reaction. Well, after 3 weeks he is back to eating, running, playing and telling me off when I get home late as he is hungry! I’ve opted to not finish the chemo or have the ear removed as it would go beyond the ear. I will be taking my angle to a holistic vet soon. I have read a lot and it seems that a diet of decent protein, good fat and low carbs is the way to go – not to mention no red meat. I have him and my other 3 dogs on Weruva, Ziwipeak, Wysong. I mix it up and they all do fine. Has anyone out there had/have an angel who has cancer or someone out there who is knowledgeable and can recommend a good food. I use to home cook for them but it got to be too much as I work a lot.
Thank you all and many blessings!
At my shelter we don’t spay the queens until a few weeks after their kittens have been weaned. If the kittens’ eyes opened 10 days ago, I’d guess that they’re roughly 3 weeks old. With kittens, even more than with puppies I’d say, it’s very important that they be kept with mom and allowed to nurse for eight weeks if at all possible. Kittens really tend not to do well when they’re weaned early. It’s a good idea to start offering wet food around 4 weeks, they’ll usually start eating a little dry around 5-6 weeks, but they really should have access to mom for 8 weeks. If the mom is already nursing, she likely would still produce milk after being spayed however I would advise waiting until at least two weeks after the kittens are weaned until spaying her. This will give her time to dry up and for the mammary tissue to regress. Not only do I feel that that a spay surgery is an unnecessary amount of stress to put a queen that is nursing ten kittens under but it’s also a more complicated surgery when the cat has mammary development (most vets don’t want to do it). During this time period, however, it will be very important to keep her contained because she can become pregnant again. Are you keeping the cats in your house? If not – would it be possible for you to create a makeshift “nursery” somewhere (a shed, garage, etc.) where it’s clean, comfortable and that you’re sure mom can’t escape and no outside cats can enter?
Plasma is the liquid component of the blood that remains after the cells are removed. Porcine plasma is essentially pig’s blood with the cells removed. The plasma that appears in pet foods is generally spray-dried. Some have an issue with the ingredient, others don’t.
I’m not sure exactly which “disease that has killed thousands of pigs” you’re referring to, there are many diseases that can be contracted by all animals – pigs included – but if you’re referring to Porcine Epidemic Diarrhea Virus (PEDv) you may find this comforting:
“Recent publicity concerning the transmission of PEDv has resulted in questions about the potential role of spray dried porcine plasma and porcine red cells in the spread of this disease. Based on current scientific evidence, collected and processed porcine blood and porcine blood products are safe and do not contribute to the spread of PEDv.”
More here: Spray Dried Porcine Blood Products Are Safe Porcine Epidemic Diarrhea Virus
If you’re referring to circovirus:
“PCV2 DNA and antibodies are commonly found in commercial spray-dried plasma. However, no evidence of infectivity of the PCV2 DNA was found in naïve pigs when commercial spray-dried plasma was included in the diet under the conditions of this study.”
Here are a few articles with various opinions on the use of spray-dried plasma as an animal feed ingredient, they may help you form an opinion:
Blood Meal — Dog Food Ingredient or Fertilizer for Your Garden?
Spray Dried Plasma – Dr. Becker
Porcine Plasma Proteins for Feed Intake and Health
Here’s some information from two companies who utilize spray-dried plasma in their foods:
Topic: Who can read here?
Liver is a species-appropriate means of supplying several trace minerals such as copper, iron, manganese, iodine and zinc and it’s also a good source of vitamin a and vitamin d. A properly balanced homemade diet should be comprised of about 5% – 7.5% liver – as long as this amount isn’t exceeded the dog isn’t at risk of consuming too much vitamin a. Because the liver (this also applies when feeding kidney or spleen) is a filtering organ, myself (and many others here) prefer to use liver from naturally raised animals. It’s certainly possible to supplement separately for the nutrients liver supplies and exclude it from the diet but, with the exception of someone who can’t get liver or can’t get liver from a clean source, I’m not sure why someone wouldn’t want to include liver in the diet. As for exactly how much of which nutrients the liver is contributing to the Urban Wolf recipe, you’d have to contact the company directly for that data.
Just a few other suggestions.
I would not recommend feeding only turkey or mostly turkey – it’s very important to feed a variety of protein sources and especially important to ensure an equal balance of red meat and poultry is being fed (unless you want to go through a lot of additional work to balance the fats). Poultry is very high in polyunsaturated fats (especially linoleic acid – a short-chain omega 6) while red meats are high in saturated fats and low in polyunsaturated fats, therefore rotating between red meat-based and poultry-based recipes is ideal.
You don’t want to add calcium to a pre-mix. Pre-mixes (such as Urban Wolf) are designed to supply a proper ratio of calcium and phosphorus with the addition of boneless meat. As long as you follow the instructions on the package there is no need to supply additional calcium.
Personally, I wouldn’t add additional starches such as yams and garbanzo beans. Urban Wolf already contains potatoes and several vegetables so your dog will be getting more than enough plant matter, you’ll just be diluting the protein further and cancelling out one of the main benefits a home-prepared diet has over kibble – more meat and less plant matter.
Also – just in case you missed it on the ingredient panel – Urban Wolf already contains nutritional yeast so if that’s something you want included in your dog’s diet there’s no reason to add extra outside of the pre-mix.
Great advice BCnut!! 🙂
Hi Kayley L,
BCnut is absolutely correct. Kibble is the absolute WORST thing you can feed a dog with kidney disease. My dog was born with kidney disease, diagnosed at age one and will be eight years old next month. She has been on HIGH protein raw her whole life. Much higher than 30% even. Her raw diet (I rotate between proteins and brands) ranges from 45 to 54% on a dry matter basis.
The original research suggesting protein was problematic was actually done on rats not dogs or cats. Later research, done on dogs, has disproven the original research but for some reason vets cling to this original research. Nutritionist Mary Straus has some different sources discussing the protein myth on her page here http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidneyprotein.html
Phosphorus can be a probelm at any stage of the disease but it isn’t always a problem in the earlier stages. Audrey, in her eight years with kidney disease, has never been on a lower phosphorus diet. Mary lists generally accepted amounts of phosphorus in the diet for the different stages of the disease on this page. http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidneydiet.html#start
When digested, proteins break down into amino acids. The body uses those amino acids to make antioxidants (glutathione), enzymes, new cells etc. What the body doesn’t use ends up as blood urea nitrogen. How well the body uses the amino acids in any particular protein is called bioavailability. I noticed last night that Dr. Foster’s and Smith website has a good explanation of protein bioavailability. They write
“Can I tell which proteins are better than others?
Not all proteins are created equal, and some are better for pets than others. Every protein source contains different levels of amino acids and each protein is different in its ability to be broken down into amino acids. The ability of a protein to be used by the body and its amount of usable amino acids is termed biological value. Egg has the highest biological value and sets the standard by which other proteins are judged. Egg has a biological value of 100. Fish meal and milk are close behind with a value of 92. Beef is around 78 and soybean meal is 67. Meat and bone meal and wheat are around 50 and corn is 45. Things like hair and feathers would be very high in protein but would be down at the bottom of the list for biological value.” http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?aid=459Removing chemicals in the environment that have to be cleared through the kidneys can help too. These chemicals may not be harmful but as another thing for the kidneys to clear they still can be problematic. Anything that could be inhaled or get absorbed through the paw could be potential problems. Giving clean (filtered) water can be very important too.
Mary has some really good info on her site if you get a chance to read through it all. Nutritionist Lew Olson of b-naturals.com also has some data on her site (along with a couple recipes). Darwin’s has a high protein, lower phosphorus raw diet that was formulated by Dr. Barbara Royal DVM if interested in raw but not wanting to have to prepare it.
There’s so much more that you can do as well. Let us know if you are interested in the additional info.
Thanks BCnut! 🙂
So, I am learning that canned food is better than kibble. Right now my dog is on Stella & Chewy’s frozen raw but I like to switch it up, so I was giving her kibble. Now, I am thinking of adding canned in the mix. I have also had samples of Grandma Lucy’s and my girl liked those, but I have yet to feed a whole bag. That is also something I want to try too.
Couple questions, is it safe to switch foods, including forms of food (raw, canned, freeze dried and kibble) often? I have read the Rotating Food posts, so it is good to switch foods/proteins, but how much is too much? If my girl is doing ok, no loose stool, vomiting, ect..then is this acceptable? Is there anything that I should worry about?
I have really only given her raw or kibble. I want to maybe throw a couple cans of food in here and there to mix things up. The brands I was thinking about are: Weruva Human Style, Tiki Dog and ZiwiPeak. Anyone have input on these? How did your dog do on them? They all seem to be top notch and are all rated 5 starts.
Any thoughts on the “Extreme Rotational Diet” or the canned foods is appreciated!!
Topic: Science Diet
So, I decided to take a better look at some Hill’s Science Diet recipes, and aside from what I already knew about the regular recipes, that they are full of grains and gluten and stuff, or, if not that, other starches and pea protein that follow in mass amounts after a single meat ingredient… SIGH… But the prescription recipes truly horrified me! I mean, come onnnnnnn, HOW would these: “Whole Grain Corn, Powdered Cellulose, Corn Gluten Meal, Chicken Liver Flavor, Chicken By-Product Meal, Soybean Mill Run, Dried Beet Pulp, Soybean Oil, Caramel color” help with freaking glucose management for diabetic dogs and gastrointestinal issues? And this stuff is supposed to be “medical” and probably even costs more!!! What for – some real crap instead of the mostly-crap found in regular recipes… I cringe and shiver/shudder (whatever the appropriate word is, sorry, English is not my first language)…
And it is also sooo funny to watch people praise the “high protein” that the Adult Advanced Fitness Lamb Meal and Rice formula has (whopping 24.something%) and how great it is… Sure, it starts off with lamb meal… followed by FIVE grain-based ingredients… Followed by pork fat and chicken liver FLAVOR, and that’s the end of the meat in the recipe. Then another grain in there somewhere. Why do people buy this? I mean, is it even affordable? I think for the reputation it has, it should be on the costly-ish side, no? Can people not buy better for this money? I am sure they could, right? Online, or with coupons, something!
I’m so sorry, had to vent, because my roommate’s dog has actually started getting in my dog’s food recently and what I feed mine is much better than the stuff the roommate’s dog eats… I almost want to just give her a little extra boost of food while he’s at work (like take out a cup and a third of her food and toss in a cup of mine – to even out the calories), but I can’t do that, right? Integrity issues, I guess… She’s not mine, but I feel for her a lot…
Again, sorry for the rant, I should be done now…
Hi Ray C –
I think most of us here would agree that when it comes to feeding dogs the most important thing is feeding a wide variety of species-appropriate foods. Species-appropriate foods will be high in animal-derived protein, high in moisture and minimally processed. For this reason the best option is a balanced raw diet (home prepared or commercially prepared), the next best option is a fresh cooked diet (home prepared or commercially prepared), followed by dehydrated and freeze-dried foods (many commercial raw products – such as Stella & Chewy’s, Primal, etc. – are available in both frozen form as well as freeze-dried form and there are dehydrated products such as The Honest Kitchen and NRG that are great), canned would be the next best option and kibble would come in last as the worst thing to feed. If you do have to feed some kibble for budget or time related reasons don’t fret – there are some decent kibbles one the market and you can always “top” the kibble with a more species-appropriate food form to increase the overall quality of the meal. For a puppy you will want to make sure the food that you feed is either approved for “growth” or for “all life stages” (may also read approved for “growth and maintenance”). Head over to the review section of the site and look through the 4 and 5 star foods to find some you want to try. And remember – don’t pick just one food! Rotating is very important, feeding just one food over time will lead to a weak gut (these are the dogs you hear about that get diarrhea/upset stomachs when their owners try to switch their food – don’t let that be your dog!).
Good luck and congrats on the new puppies! 🙂
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