[beaglemom]

Hi everyone… one of my pups has fallen into the “late summer itchies” stage and I’m at a complete loss for what to do for her because nothing works. Her only symptom is paw licking/chewing – intermittently. She’ll go for hours seemingly fine and then have a serious itchy paw attack, primarily the front paws. Her ears seem fine, and though she occasionally scratches at them I’d say it’s 10% or less of the time. She’s been getting us up in the morning… will sleep until ~4-5 am and then it’s up chewing the paws.

What does this sound like? She eats an incredibly varied diet, primarily raw so food allergy is last on my list of suspicions… but I can’t rule it out I guess. Stools have been perfect though. We’ve tried rinsing off her feet every time she comes in from outside in either water/baking soda, water/iodine, and recently I picked up some Epsom salt but I’m not even sure it’s worth trying. The foot rinsing does not seem to have an effect, though. I’ve also been giving her half a Benedryl (12.5 mg) OR half of a Zyrtec (5 mg) with meals but neither seems to offer her any relief.

Any input or suggestions are greatly appreciated. It may come down to allergy/blood tests at the vet but they’re my last resort just because of the money… however, I hate to see her suffer like this. If it is a seasonal thing, we’re still at least a month away from first frost. Thanks in advance.

[pugmomsandy]

“What are good options to implement (such as veggies and fruits)?”

Toppers can be scrambled egg, sardines, raw meat, canned food, whatever you like it to be but the general rule is to not use more than 20% as a topper and try to use species appropriate toppers. As for veggies or fruit, use these in small amounts as dogs don’t need too much of them but they do contain nutrients and antioxidants, etc. Fruit has a lot of sugar so I don’t use much. When I make a homemade batch of food I don’t use more than 5% fruits, and 20% veggies. And actually my last batch of food, I didn’t put in any veg/fruit.

“What is the ratios?”

When talking about ratios, a couple things come to mind. First, the calcium to phosphorus ratio is important for large breed puppies. This affects their bone growth. Secondly, the prey model diet ratio of 80/10/10 of meat/bone/organs. Some recipe books have varying ratios.

“Generally how many times a day do people feed their kids?”

I feed twice a day, occasionally once a day. Some will fast their dogs one day a week.

“Are dairy products like cheese bad for dogs?”

It depends. If your dog is lactose intolerant, then yes. If it’s cheese from a cow that had antibiotics and growth hormones, yes it’s bad. I suggest a goat product like goat milk or goat milk kefir or cow product that came from free range cows that did not receive antibiotics or growth hormones. Products like full fat, no artificial sweeteners or colors yogurt has live cultures of beneficial organisms so it can help some dogs with digestive problems. Cottage cheese can be a good source of protein and is low in lactose (I think).

“What is the advantages of “bully bones/or marrow bones” vs rawhide bones?”

Rawhides are hard to digest and can cause blockages and the way they are processed can be problematic. Sometimes chemicals are used. And I think many of them come from China. Marrow bones aren’t processed and once the marrow has been taken care of, you can reuse the bone by stuffing it with something else and freezing it and giving it as a treat. Bully sticks can cause blockages too if they are gulped down. I usually take them away when they get small but gnawing on them helps clean the teeth. Cow hoof is another item that my dogs like to gnaw on.

[AJs4leggedkidsx4]

Hello!

I have read tons of your topics and responses. I must say that I have seen the light! My “Kids” are my world and I def have been doing them an injustice!

I hear about food fillers/kibble toppers I need more information.

What are good options to implement (such as veggies and fruits)?

What is the ratios?

Generally how many times a day do people feed their kids? (I feed mine a breakfast snack, but they do not eat dinner until I do in the afternoons) I should note that I have 4 kids, corgi/blue heeler/, TWIN German shepherd/pitbull mix and a applehead Chihuahua. The Chihuahua is on a calorie controlled diet. My kids are active and lean. I feed them 2 to 2 1/2 cups at meal time.

Are dairy products like cheese bad for dogs?

What is the advantages of “bully bones/or marrow bones” vs rawhide bones?

I am sure that I’ll more questions, but right now I need to get the basics down of a healthy diet.

Thank you all for your help!

AJ

[JLezinsky]

Hi Hound Dog Mom,

We have been wanting to switch our pup to a raw food diet for a while now. We have been doing tons of reading on this forum and research and decided to start with a pre-made raw mix while we figured out how to add more from scratch.

Last weekend at our local pet store the owners of Sirius Raw Dog Food (a small company from Ruby, NY) were out front talking about their product. I was wondering if anyone has heard or more importantly used their food? We decided to give it a try and start or 8 month old Catahoula (40 lbs) on it. We switched her cold turkey without any problem, in fact she went crazy for it. However, the more I read on this form the more excited I get about making good food for her, but at the same time the more overwhelming this starts to seem. Our biggest concern right now is that she is getting the proper nutrition and the correct amounts of food. Sirius told us that she will be good with 2% her body weight, about 1lb a day. And that everything she needs is in the food. We started giving her ½ lb twice a day. It has only been a few days and it is hard to tell if she’s hungry or just wants more because it is so good. Yesterday we increased her feeding to ¾ lb twice a day. Since she is only 8 months should she be giving her more than 2-3%? Sirius told us that she was considered an adolescent. I just want to get your opinion.

Also, should we be using any additional supplements while we stay on the Sirius pre-made mix? Should we be concerned about the calcium while on this?

I figured this was the best place to get answers. I appreciate any help you can give us.

Thanks,
Jon

There is not a lot of information on their site so I attached the nutritional info. that they had emailed to me. They have a few blends, a chicken, a beef, a turkey.

beef blend….Ingredients: Beef, Chicken Bones, Beef Heart, Beef Liver, Sweet Potato, Carrots, Zucchini, Romaine Lettuce, Spinach, Cilantro, Parsley, Ginger Root, Garlic
Guaranteed analysis: crude protein, min 16.00%; crude fat, min 14.00%, crude fiber, max 00.30%; moisture, max 64.00%

http://www.siriusrawdogfood.com

[bkagel]

Hi all. I have been using dog food advisor for quite some time. Here’s the deal. I have an 8 year old pap and I think she has ibs. She’s sensitive when it comes to grains and overly processed foods. The last dry food she was on was Merrick’s grain free buffalo. She was doing okay on that kibble but she get’s seasonal allergies. She was one yeasty dog! I slowly took her off the Merrick and put her back on her raw food diet. With a lot of baths, and her adjustment to her old raw food diet I thought we were good to go. Unfortunately she started having serious diarrhea, so she just ate cooked chicken with pro- biotics from Nature’s Farmacy. I cooked her a low residue food and then I started adding 1 tablespoon of acana per meal thinking I could switch her to acana. No way. I thought I was going to pass out from her second poop. Talk about foul smelling!!

She does well with a protein ratio of 28-32% and a carb ratio the same or lower level. I really liked brother’s complete, but realistically, I can’t afford it. I have two fur babies and while they are small I don’t know if I could afford them. At least with a 50 lb bag of Acana, I would be set for a good 4-5 months.

This is what I’ve tried over the years that hasn’t worked or I didn’t like:
back to basics-diarrhea city too much protein
Evo, Innova, California Naturals-she didn’t do so well on those as a puppy. Ibs flare ups etc.

Having written all of that, is there some grain free, potato free (or at least low potato) food I can get my dogs that I can get a sample packet(s) I can afford. It used to be that the stores would give you a sample packet. Pet people charged me $10.00 for a sample packet.

I live in Columbus Ohio. I usually go to Petco or Pet People because they tend to have the better foods in stock.
Please tell me there is help for this situation. She’s on the prescribed low resolution and she’s taking “their” probiotics. It’s only a matter of time 2-3 days until she’ll be back to normal. I have NO clue what to give her that I can afford for both of them.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Weight loss is based on calories in and calories out – your dog has to create an energy deficit in order to lose weight (in other words, the dog needs to burn more calories than it’s consuming). Weight loss can be achieved on any food as long as the portion size is controlled appropriately – although it’s definitely easier on foods that are less calorically-dense. Personally, if I had a dog with weight issues I would definitely avoid kibble. Kibble is very low in moisture and for this reason much more calorically dense than higher moisture foods (raw, canned, dehydrated). To give you an idea – a large can of food (~13 oz.) will contain roughly the same number of calories as an 8 oz. cup of dry kibble. Dehydrated foods contain roughly the same amount of calories per cup as a quality kibble (sometimes slightly more), but they are re-hydrated with – usually – 1 part food to 1.5 parts water which results in about 2 1/2 C. of food for roughly the same amount of calories as 1 C. of kibble. A raw diet formulated with lean meat will be very low in calories – generally only 250 – 300 per cup of food. If you do decide to go with a kibble, my recommendations would be Annamaet Lean, Wellness CORE Reduced Fat or Acana Light & Fit. Be sure to reduce portion sizes accordingly.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 7 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[somebodysme]

OH yes, sounds just exactly like my dog with allergies too. She’s a “lab mix”…AKA no one knows!

The vet did the same thing. What I did was go with a limited ingredient diet. I have her on Nature’s Variety LID Turkey which is doing an adequate job of keeping it under control. Remember that everything he consumes can contribute, not just their dog food. Treats and rawhide etc. even vitamins and supplements. People food…it can all cause problems.

Really the antiboitics help heal it up but then it just will come right back because they are killing the dog’s immune system.

I chose the NV food because it had the least amount of ingredients and not potatoes of any kind. I don’t even want her on sweet potatoes either.

Does he stink like strong cheese? If so that is yeast too so you don’t want a food with too many carbs or it will get worse. You’d also want to give a probiotic.

Just out of curiosity, what are you feeding him now?

[Bill Rogan]

Hello!!! Beagleowner? Hope you feel better than before because your dog is gradually progressed.

You should bring diversification in you dog food menu. You should ensure that the diet you feed meets your dog’s requirements. It’s important that the diet you feed your dog is “complete and balanced,” meaning it meets all of your dog’s nutritional needs. It is not important, however, that every meal would be completed and balanced, unless you feed the same meal every day with little or no variation.

Following are the guidelines for feeding a raw or cooked homemade diet to get a healthy dog. No single type of food, such as chicken, should ever make up more than half the diet.

You should keep the followings in your consideration while cooking your dog food. Proper balanced dog food includes:

Meat and other Animal Products:

Raw meaty bones (optional)
Boneless meat
Fish
Organs
Eggs
Dairy

Fruits and Vegetables:

Starchy vegetables
Leafy green and other non-starchy vegetables
Fruits
Grains

Supplements:

Calcium
Oils
Fish oil
Cod liver oil
Plant Oils

Other Vitamins and Minerals:

Vitamin E
Iodine
Green blends

Hopefully you be benefited. Best of luck of you with your beloved dog.

[dogmom2]

Patty, I was thinking about the age factor in the coarseness of his outer coat. And it has been almost 2 years since our “food epiphany” and their introduction to raw, and the like. (they were on innova before..with canned innova.). This last year has been the best coat Hank has ever had, and I attribute it to the change in diet to better more natural foods.
He really is pretty healthy, and happy overall. It has just been a crazy amount of hair on the lawn after evening brushing and all over the house. We vacuum every day as it is, but holy moly!!!

Hdm….you are right. I will watch and wait before I panic!

• This reply was modified 12 years, 7 months ago by dogmom2.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi beagleowner –

I’m glad to hear that Henry is having some progress. 🙂

As far as the diet goes, there are a few recommendations that I would make. First, I would recommend rotating through a variety of proteins rather than feeding just turkey. It would probably be a good idea to work in a red meat protein source occasionally or if you continue to feed predominantly poultry add 1 tbs. ground flax or 1 tsp. flax oil per pound of meat to help balance the fats. The ratio of protein to vegetables doesn’t have to be 2 to 1 – I personally feed much more protein and much less vegetables than that, about 85% – 90% meat/bone/organ to 10% – 15% plant ingredients (vegetables, nuts, seeds, etc.). It’s fine to feed the amount of vegetables that you’re feeding though – anywhere from 50:50 to 90:10 meat to vegetables is okay although I recommend keeping towards the higher end of the meat ratio. Based on what you’re feeding I think it would make much more sense to omit the vitamin a, d and e and add a multivitamin – any one a day type multi formulated for humans with 10% or less DV calcium would be fine, I would give a dog his size one half the recommended human dosage per day. It is possible to balance the diet with whole foods alone but it’s a lot trickier – I do this with my dogs’ recipes which are posted in the raw menu thread. How much meat are you using per 3 eggshells? You want to be providing between 800 and 1,000 mg. calcium per pound of boneless muscle meat to balance the calcium to phosphorus ratio. When using eggshell calcium you want to add about 1 tsp. finely ground eggshell per pound of meat. Why did your vet suggest a kidney formula and not suggest using the “dissolve” supplement that you were using previously? I’m not familiar with the dissolve supplement and don’t know what’s in it so I can’t offer any input but if it was working and it’s something your vet supports you may want to go back to it. I’ve heard good things about the use of turmeric (or curcumin) for dogs with lipomas – combining with bromelain can increase the effectiveness. I’ve also heard good things about IP-6 and Inositol for treating lipomas.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 7 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.
• This reply was modified 12 years, 7 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Tigerlily]

Well that is quite frustrating that I was given incorrect information.

I am quite familiar with standard poodles and all too aware and educated on the genetic predispositions in my breed. Also, in general, those of us who are knowledgeable and involved in the breed consider them to be a “medium to large breed” and we are careful to promote slow and steady growth to avoid orthopedic issues. I have always been careful to feed foods with moderate calcium levels to my puppies. That said, because poodles are closer to the “medium” end of the spectrum (or should be, in my opinion), I am sure that my precautions are just that – precautions.

I am not going to entirely rule out the two Acana formulas, but I am pretty happy with Dr. Tim’s at the moment so I may consider the grain inclusive version of Kinesis for the puppies. If puppy owners are reluctant to order online, I can suggest they feed Fromm Chicken a la Veg. Or, heck, maybe I’ll just raise the puppies on the Fromm. 🙂 A large percentage of my of my poodles’ diet is raw, but at this point I do plan to raise the litter on kibble.

On another note, does anyone know how to add a photo above my name?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Shihtzumom –

I must have somehow missed your previous posts, I just saw them today.

Because Dawson is getting the Ziwipeak for one meal a day I wouldn’t get overstressed about whether or not his raw meals are completely balanced – any minor deficiencies will likely be covered by the Ziwipeak. Your recipe looks really good! If you were to feed 1/4 tin of sardines per week, in addition to the cod liver oil, his DHA/EPA needs should be covered. If you can’t get him to eat fruits and vegetables this should be okay seeing as he is getting a green superfood supplement (just make sure to rotate ingredients often). You may, however, want to add an ingredient with some fiber for the meals where he’s not getting bone if he’s not eating fruits and veggies either – some flax meal would work and it would also have the added benefit of helping to balance the fats in his predominantly chicken diet. I would still include a small amount of organ meat in the diet even though he’s getting the glandular supplement. I would suggest about an ounce or an ounce and a half of liver every week and an ounce or an ounce and a half of kidney (or another organ, if you can get it). If you’re concerned about his weight and want to keep fat levels low 95% lean should be okay, I wouldn’t go any leaner than that though. You could also use heart and gizzard as part of his muscle meat component – very lean and also pretty cheap. The only other suggestion I would make is to incorporate some nuts or seeds occasionally (I like sprouted pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds, chia or flax) and possibly a few canned oysters as well. The nuts/seeds will provide trace nutrients such as manganese and the oysters are rich in copper and zinc. You should also add a very small amount of salt. This aren’t additions that need to be made daily, but occasionally to help fill the gaps. Variety is key.

[DogFoodie]

You know, you’re making me think I need to check into another local source I have before I jump into Hare Today grinds. There’s a local butcher that has been in my town for years and years and I noticed a while back when I was poking around in the freezers at the pet store that they make their own “chunk” dog food. They don’t have a website, but here are some links I found online about them:

http://www.fluffydog.net/product.sc?productId=138

http://www.joeyspetoutfitters.com/News/tabid/67/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/446/New-JJ-Fuds-raw-diets.aspx

• This reply was modified 12 years, 7 months ago by DogFoodie.

[beaglemom]

Hi again FreeholdHound!
Like you I’m not super impressed with his menu but feel the prices can’t be beat (plus no shipping). I started off with a box of the Chick/Turk/Lamb Medley since my dogs don’t have a lot of lamb in their diet but wish I hadn’t… I just wish he wouldn’t combine so many proteins in those medleys. I mean BeeTurDuckenLamb? A little overboard. But anyway, the veggies are ONLY collard greens… which is minimal compared to most other premade raws. Plus he does have whole ground chicken and whole ground duck by itself (no veggies). I don’t know. I’m going to try him again next month one more time (with some “simpler” items… no blends) just because like you, it would nice to have a local supplementary source for raw (no shipping cost is a huge plus). At this point I’m still thinking Darwin’s and Hare are going to remain my primary raw sources though.

[InkedMarie]

Betsy, it kind of depends what kind of raw you want to feed, prey model with just meat/bone or a barf type of diet. I have a group on fb that is strictly prey model. They know what variety I feed, while they don’t agree with it, they respect my choice.

Tracy may be right about the veggies; if I could afford to feed Boone just Hare stuff, I’d be curious to see if the paw licking stopped.

[gmcbogger38]

Ok, so I currently feed a prey model raw diet to my 3 dogs and they are doing great on it and their teeth are getting so clean it is amazing. Well, one of my dogs wouldn’t eat her raw and this went on for 3 days. I know I should have given her some more time and made her eat the raw, but I decided to just buy a small bag of Orijen kibble just so she would eat something. Of course, she ate the kibble no problem. I love feeding raw, but the fact is it is costing me more money right now because I don’t have a separate freezer to buy in bulk like I would need to to make it cheaper for 3 dogs. If I decided to put my dogs back on kibble and gave them a raw meaty bone 2-3 times per week or so, would that make me a terrible dog owner? lol. I want the benefit of cleaning their teeth, but I’m going broke because of it due to my current situation. I am also a full time college student and work a full time job, so I barely have time to go buy the food and then bag it all up for the week and a half that it lasts (that’s all I can fit in my freezer/fridge at the moment).

[jamie_aa]

HDM…

Ok i think now i am switching my food choice again… Please Help me! I was going to do a mix between petcurean and Fromm thinking it would be the best for my puppy, but again the more I read the more I am learning. You have so many to choose from on your list so I wanted to see what your top five choices might be? I will be adding 20% percent of my homemade raw diet to it a day. Again I will have a Saint Bernard 8 weeks old puppy and i just want her to have a great start on life. I just dont want to be spending a lot on a bag of dog food “Petcurean”, if there is an even better one out there that i could be giving her for the same price of even cheaper. I am willing to order the food online if i have to….

[Gmcwy]

I live in Wyoming and there are no holistic vets without driving 4 hours to Fort Collins, if there is one there. I had her on a Raw diet which she did fantastic on but I can’t feed her anything with hormones so it was horribly difficult to get enough wild game and free range without going broke. I think I’m going to try the Avoderm Lamb and rice, it has a 4.5 rating on here and is designed for sensitive stomachs. And I have learned the importance of finding a high quality breeder sigh…

[EHubbman]

Also not Patty, but along with what Marie was saying, it also works well to keep your dog’s gut active and able to adjust to changes more, is something I’ve found in the past.
No food is ever complete, so rotating also helps to balance a diet, and keep it interesting for your pups. (I wouldn’t like eating the same thing every day for my entire life, I know that!)

Marie/anyone- You say you rotate with pre-made raw and grinds; do you keep a certain amount of time between kibble/raw? I’ve been reading a few things that you need to wait XX hours between kibble/raw because kibble slows the gut down, which can let bad bacteria from the raw cultivate in the gut. Then others say that it doesn’t matter so much. Your thoughts?

• This reply was modified 12 years, 7 months ago by EHubbman.

[beaglemom]

SandyandMila/HDM… haha I just had to comment on this (though I know it was awhile ago). HDM you must never have joined the “rawfeeding” yahoo group! They are “interesting” to say the least… I definitely come here first but here’s the lessons this list wants you to believe: dogs need zero supplements, ever; all dogs need to eat is meat meat meat (and a little bone and a little organs); bones don’t clean teeth, tearing at meat chunks does; necks of any sort have no place in the diet unless attached to the animal; ground meat is evil; veggies and fruits are evil; tripe is useless. LOL. I will join the “thank goodness i found this site” crowd and also to tie in to the topic of this thread, I am expecting my first Hare Today order on Wednesday and can’t wait!!! (And it includes duck necks!!!) 🙂

[Hound Dog Mom]

I vaccinate my dogs as puppies (8 weeks, 12 weeks and 16 weeks) with the core vaccines. I’ll then get another booster for the core vaccines one year after the final series of puppy boosters. I do not vaccine again after this (aside from rabies every three years which is required by law). I never vaccinate for non-core vaccines such as lyme, bordetella, etc. It’s known that these core vaccines provide immunity much longer than a year and even much longer than the three year intervals that some vets are starting to recommend. Through challenge it has been proven that most of these core vaccines provide immunity for at least 5 to 7 years and it is believed that they may even provide lifetime immunity. Rather than re-vaccinating yearly (or even every three years) it’s much smarter to have a titer – a blood test which measures the dog’s immunity. If the titer shows that your dog is immune there’s no reason to re-vaccinate – re-vaccinating provides no benefit (or increased immunity) it only puts your dog at risk for the negative side affects that may be caused by vaccines. I would highly recommend checking out this series of videos in which Dr. Becker interviews Dr. Ronald Schultz. Dr. Schultz is an immunology specialist in the Department of Pathobiological Sciences at the School of Veterinary Science at the University of Wisconsin – Madison. http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/05/31/what-your-vet-didnt-tell-you-about-all-those-puppy-and-kitty-vaccines.aspx

I do not use any chemical flea or tick preventatives. In my opinion, when it comes to fleas and ticks the best defense is a strong immune system. I have a SNAP 4DX test done on my dogs every 6 months to test for tick transmitted diseases. I comb my dogs with a flea comb daily during flea/tick season and have never found any fleas or ticks (and they’re hounds that spend quite a bit of time outdoors). Since switching to a species-appropriate raw diet I haven’t had any parasite issues (internal or external). I do use some natural-oil based topicals and shampoos and give them an herbal flea and tick tincture from Earth Animal (formulated by Dr. Goldstein).

Concerning Frontline and which contains the active ingredient “fipronil”:

• Dr. Dobozy of the EPA’s Pesticide Division has found that the active ingredient (fipronil) in Frontline remains in a pet’s system with the potential for nervous system and thyroid toxicity. Tests on laboratory animals resulted in thyroid cancer and altered thyroid hormones, liver and kidney toxicity, reduced fertility and convulsions. Frontline’s web site creates the impression that the product stays in the oil glands of the skin. But Dr. Dobozy’s study showed that, in fact, it does enter the body and the organ systems.
• This investigation determined fipronil residues on gloves worn while petting dogs after Frontline application. Frontline contains 9.8% fipronil, which controls fleas and ticks on dogs for at least 30 days. Frontline (1.34 ml) was applied topically on adult household dogs and gloves worn for 5 min during pettingwere collected 24 hr and 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 w post-Frontline application for fipronil residue determinations using GC/MS. The highest concentration of fipronil (589.3 +/- 205.7ppm) was detected 24 h after Frontline application and was undetectable in the gloves collected at 5w. Repeated exposure to such contamination can pose human health risks. [“Human Exposure to Fipronil from Dogs Treated with Frontline” can be found on Pubmed]
• Journal of Pesticide Reform Factsheet: Fipronil:
1. In tests with laboratory animals, fipronil causes aggressive behavior, damaged kidneys, and “drastic alterations in thyroid function.” The fipronil containing product ‘Frontline’ caused changes in the levels of sex hormones.
2. The offspring of laboratory animals exposed to fipronil during pregnancy were smaller than those of unexposed mothers. They also took longer to mature sexually.
3. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency classifies fipronil as a carcinogen because exposure to fipronil caused benign and malignant thyroid tumors in lab animals.

Imidacloprid (active ingredient in Advantage) and Pyrethrins (active ingredient in Biospot) have been found to have similar negative effects.

Concerning heartworm prevention. I do use heartworm prevention, however I’m very conservative with it. My dogs get an ivermectin-based preventative every 45 days during hearworm season. The FDA approvals cite that Heartguard, Interceptor and Revolution provide protection beyond 30 days. I use preventatives that contain heartworm prevention only – I avoid the preventatives that also contain wormers, flea preventatives, etc. I’m in northern NY so I usually end up administering the first dose in early May and the last dose sometime in November. Starting the day after my dogs receive their preventative I give milk thistle daily for one week to help protect their liver from the damaging effects of the ivermectin. The SNAP 4DX test I have done every 6 months also tests for heartworms. Dr. Becker has an article about heartworm prevention here: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2010/08/03/why-havent-pet-owners-been-told-these-facts-about-heartworm.aspx . This website also has a wealth of information concerning heartworm prevention: http://dogaware.com/articles/wdjheartwormprevention.html .

[Hound Dog Mom]

I would only use flax if you’re feeding a lot of poultry – 1 tsp. oil or 1 tbs. ground flax (preferably sprouted) per pound of poultry fed. Poultry tends to be high in polyunsaturated fats (particularly linoleic acid) which red meats tend to be lower in, for this reason you want to avoid fat sources that are high in LA and, instead, add a fat source such as flax (or chia) which is lower in LA and higher in alpha-linolenic acid (ALA). I don’t agree with using “fish oil or coconut oil or flax oil” as flax oil and coconut oil are not a replacement for a quality fish oil. Fish oil supplies bioavailable omega 3’s in their long-chain forms – docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) and eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA). Flax oil (and some other plant-based oils) do supply omega 3’s but they’re in the short-chain alpha-linolenic acid (ALA) form. The body has to convert ALA to EPA and DHA and this process is very inefficient (I’ve read that in many cases less than 15% of the ALA is converted). Coconut oil, while a very healthy addition to the diet, does not contain omega 3’s – it contains saturated fat, predominantly in the form of medium chain triglycerides (MCTs). I would recommend for a dog Mila’s size (she weighs around 50 lbs, right?) adding 1 capsule of a high quality fish oil daily or 1 tin (3.75 oz.) of sardines packed in water per week, up to 2 1/2 tsp. coconut oil per day and 1 tsp. flax oil or 1 tbs. ground flax per pound of poultry if she’s eating a lot of poultry. Hope that helps!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Aussie Mom –

I would recommend “See Spot Live Longer Dinner Mix” – it’s a combination of whole foods and vitamins and minerals designed to balance a boneless raw meat diet. You add 2 – 4 tbs. per pound of meat and it supplies everything you need (in terms of vitamins, minerals, fiber and balancing the calcium to phosphorus ratio). I’m actually planning on utilizing this mix part time this fall when I go back to school to save me some time – as much as I love doing everything completely from scratch it can really take up a lot of time. You could use this while you’re researching how to do things completely from scratch. There are some other “pre-mixes” out there as well (Urban Wolf, Prefereance, Birkdale, Grandma Lucy’s, Sojo’s, Dr. Harvey’s, etc.). You will still need to add omega 3’s – either in the form of a quality fish oil, fatty fish, cage-free eggs or some combination of these.

If you’re concerned about a correlation between fish oil and prostate cancer I’d suggest reading this article by Dr. Mercola:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/07/31/omega-3-fats.aspx#!

• This reply was modified 12 years, 7 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[dog34747]

I have an 8 year old male, retired racing greyhound with a very sensitive stomach and allergies. He’s had severe ear infections, nasal congestion, compulsive licking and digestive problems. He is also hyper allergic to flea bites, with them even turning in to mini staph infections at each bite. Over the past 3 1/2 years I have tried nearly every brand on the market from Purina on up to Orijen. If it’s sold anywhere between the specialty boutique shops and PetsMart, I have probably tried it. I’ve tried grain-in, grain-free, corn-free, soy-free, gluten-free, chicken-free… etc. etc. I have tried chicken, turkey, fish, lamb, beef, bison, and I think one even had ostrich or something. Basically I’ve tried everything. I have even tried the high-end frozen raw diet food, he just simply won’t touch it. He does not appear to be allergic to chicken specifically, I’ve tried poultry based foods and foods with absolutely no poultry of any kind and the result is the same.

Every single grain-free food causes, horrendous breath, loose stool and severe gas. No amount of pumpkin, yogurt, supplement pro-biotics or pre-biotics seems to fix it, sometimes those relieve things for a day or two but never permanently. It seems directly linked to the percent of protein, above a certain point and these issues start. He seems ok around 22% but usually anything in that range is not grain-free.

The grain-in foods (and treats) increase his nasal congestion (like a kid sucking the snot in vs. blowing his nose, not the same as a reverse sneeze) and the obsessive licking, and they also exacerbates the ear infections. He has had the ear infections recurring, or perhaps even continually but low level, since I got him. He was on a grain-in food when I got him and I immediately switched to grain-free but the ear never fully cleared up even on grain-free. The ear is finally cleared up (for now) after lots of meds though I’m worried his diet will bring it back.

I have tried some raw foods and veggies but they seem to pass through him without even being digested at all.

Any kind of food with potato as a major ingredient seems to act as an immediate diuretic, causing him to be constantly thirsty, panting and drinking and therefore needing to go out 7+ per day every few hours and even having accidents in the house which otherwise he has never had before. This includes all those limited ingredient foods because they all seems to be potato based.

The only time I have had any luck with a food is with Iams Sensitive Naturals Ocean Fish. Yes, I know it doesn’t rank highly and many people here are against it, but it was literally the only food that stopped the breath/stool/gas problems in their tracks, nearly overnight. I’ve heard others say they had similar good luck with Iams and attribute it to the beet pulp, not sure if that’s really true but I can say it worked for my dog. He went about eating it with no digestive issues for 9 months or so but the silent ear infection got worse and worse and the nasal issues got worse. Then we tried Eukanuba Wild Salmon/Rice and the ear/nasal continued to get worse and the licking started. The only benefit to the Eukanuba was his coat was suddenly full, fluffy and soft and the traditional greyhound bald spots were even filling in. I was bothered by the increase in allergies so I’ve gone back to looking for something else.

So I’ve since re-tried several other grain-free foods and the Biljac Sensitive formula, all produce the same old problems. Re-tried a limited potato food, same problem.

I’d like to note he has been tested repeatedly for worms, giardia, heartworms, etc. and all negative. He has had bloodwork taken regularly and it is all absolutely perfect, including thyroid. His teeth have been cleaned by the vet recently and are good. He has absolutely no medical issues outside of the allergies and stomach sensitivities. Also, several vets and others suggested giving him claritan or benedryl to relieve the nasal and skin related reactions but it seems to do nothing for him.

I’m sorry this post is so long, thanks for reading all of it, I was trying to give the full background so folks know what I’ve already tried on this great food adventure. I’m looking for any suggestions, advice, testimonials, whatever on food and treats. I’m willing to try any food to get him to be comfortable, as long as it doesn’t require a second mortgage to pay for it. Thanks in advance!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Aussie Mom –

Homemade raw is actually much cheaper than pre-made raw. I spend just under $200 a month to feed my girls a homemade raw diet – for comparative purposes it would cost me nearly $800 per month to feed Darwin’s (based on the average cost of all of their formulas). There are many ways to keep costs low when feeding a homemade raw diet: 1) Utilize raw meaty bones (chicken backs, turkey necks, etc.) – they are much cheaper per pound than boneless meat and if fed in appropriate quantities will eliminate the need for a calcium supplement; 2) Use heart, gizzards and green tripe for the muscle meat component of the diet – these items are cheap and nutritious, dogs have no need for expensive cuts of meat such as boneless skinless chicken breast or beef sirloin; 3) Buy in bulk. I purchase my meat from a wholesaler that supplies restaurants and grocery stores – nearly every item I buy is under $1 per pound; 4) Purchase supplements from a human nutritional store, in bulk when possible – this is much cheaper than buying supplements marketed towards pets. I purchase all supplements for both myself and my dog from Swanson’s – best prices I’ve seen. I make my own green supplement by purchasing the ingredients I want in 1 lb. bags and combining them.

Hare Today is great – I do purchase a few things from there (mostly Green Tripe). Their products are not human grade as they contain things like green tripe, ground bone, fur/feathers (for whole prey grinds) that are not suitable for human consumption (but very nutritious for animals) and the products aren’t processed in a human food facility. Using Hare Today grinds may be slightly cheaper than pre-made raw but if you really want to cut costs you need to do it from scratch – many butchers will sell RMBs and offal cheaply as they’re not desirable for humans or hook up with a supplier like I did.

If you’re interested in homemade raw I would highly recommend purchasing “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown. It’s wonderful book for beginners and includes AAFCO compliant recipes that are easy to make and utilize easy to find and cheap ingredients. Dogaware(dot)com is also a great online resource.

[losul]

Hy Cyndi!

By now you have maybe already looked it up. I don’t see any serious problem with what you did. In fact I sometimes do the same with small quantitities to be used fairly quickly. Sometimes it’s just not very feasible to do any other way. I guess I mostly just used the opportunity to plug Steve’s book again, lol. While I don’t consider it to be the absolute gospel, I do think he gives a solid foundation to start, so I highly reccomend to folks thinking about starting a raw and/or fresh diet, balancing foods, and/or improving a dogs processed food diet with minimum effort, along with other good tips and advice, and interesting tidbits like gross inaccuracies of professional laboratory analysis testing.

The only thing he hypothesizes about about mixing in vegetables with ground meats before freezing, is that it can further degrade nutrients in the meats and shortens the shelf life because of additional ice crystal formation further damaging the cell walls and making even more exposed to oxidizing agents. It could be a consideration if prepping and freezing for longer periods, or for commercial raw foods that already contain veggies. He says to insist on knowing the production date and then determine yourself the quality shelf life, not just on some of the manufacturers proclaimed 12 month expiration date.

Other things about frozen storage;

for frozen at constant 0 degress, ground meats and whole poultry giblets, USDA only determines to be considered quality that they are used in 3 to 4 months. Whole meats, roasts, poultry, etc., up to 1 year.

Once frozen, and especially ground meats and fish, or especially those with delicate polyunsturated fats, oxidation, degradation, enzyme activity, etc continues, albeit at a slower pace. Ice crystals also grow steadily, increasing damage to cell walls.

I’ve tried to get one friend interested in feeding her (health problems)dogs better, and I had left the book for her to read. She will still have nothing to do with raw, but I thought I had some of it sinking in until visiting recently I saw she again had a large bag of kibble standing wide open in her too warm laundry room. I scolded her carefully(again), closed the bag and brought it in, went and got my book and insisted She read right then and there the section on kibble storage.

I’m convinced that many of todays illnesses are caused by rancidity, nutrient degradation, molds and mycotoxins, and infestatations, from kibble stored too long or under inadequate conditions, especially with the move away from toxic, but more effective, chemical preservatives, and the move towards more delicate fats, and presumably much less toxic, but also much less efficient natural preservatives. I currently feed only about 25% kibble, majority raw, and the rest canned. Probably in the near future I will go to 100% or near, home prepped raw.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi soccermom7 –

Do not add Preference to a balanced kibble. Preference is designed for the addition of boneless meat. Meat is high in phosphorus but has negligible amounts of calcium (dogs need calcium and phosphorus in between a 1:1 and 2:1 ratio) therefore pre-mixes such as Preference are very high in calcium to compensation for the addition of meat, kibble already has a balanced C:P ratio so adding Preference would potentially throw it off. Additionally, if anything you should be adding more meat to kibble not fruits and vegetables – kibble is too high in plant matter as it is.

As far as a kibble replacement for THK – there is not kibble replacement. The Honest Kitchen is a minimally processed food and about as close to a raw natural or home cooked diet as you can get with feeding commercial food. THK even has some enzymes still intact. Kibble is highly processed. I can understand wanting to cut costs because THK is pricey (I used to feed it) but, unfortunately, going to kibble is going to be a huge decrease in quality.

My recommendations would be to consider a homemade diet (raw or cooked, whatever you’re more comfortable with). There are many books available with balanced recipes. Homemade diets can be done very cheaply. When I was feeding two of my bloodhounds THK I was spending over $500 per month. I’m now feeding them a homemade raw diet, which is even healthier than THK, and spending just under $200 per month. You may want to check out Grandma Lucy’s – it’s another dehydrated type food similar to THK and is a bit more reasonably priced. Another option would be to feed kibble for one meal and THK for the other or to “top” the kibble with some rehydrated THK. You could also look into canned foods – many canned foods are expensive however there are some really reasonably priced quality canned foods available. Pure Balance (available at Walmart) it is rated 5 stars and costs between $1 and $1.25 per can. Costco sells Kirkland Cuts in Gravy which is rated 5 stars for $0.79 per can. 4Health which is rated 4.5 stars is available at Tractor Supply for $0.99 per can. If you added an enzyme supplement to one of these foods it would be nearly as good as THK and much better than kibble. If you do find that you need to go with an entirely kibble diet, I’d pick a 5 star kibble, rotate brands often for variety and add some fresh foods whenever possible (leftover meat, eggs, yogurt, tinned sardines, etc.).

[Hound Dog Mom]

Yeah – basically Steve just talks about how frozen raw foods should be used within three months. If foods are frozen longer than that fats can go rancid and antioxidants can oxidize. This shouldn’t be an issue for your purposes. I’m always going back and re-reading things, especially Steve’s book. Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet is my go to.

[losul]

Hi Cyndi.

Do you by chance have the book “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet”? If you do, pages 90 and 91 (2010 edition) gives very good info on frozen storage and quality concerns. The rest of chapter 7 “Storing Foods to Retain Quality” gives excellent info for storing dry foods

[Hound Dog Mom]

I agree with Patty. When I used to feed kibble I switched to a new brand with a new protein source after each bag (every few weeks) and I rotated canned or fresh food toppers (yogurt, raw eggs, sardines, leftover meat, etc.) daily. Now my dogs eat a homemade diet and get something completely different at every meal.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi shilohsure –

Pre-made raw food is very expensive and Primal is probably the most expensive brand of all. Pre-made raw really is financially impractical for large breed dogs and multi-dog households. If you want to feed raw I’d highly recommend researching homemade raw and learning to make your own. Homemade raw is higher quality than pre-made raw and it’s much cheaper. I’m currently spending under $200 per month to feed my two girls raw – they’re both around 70 lbs. and they each eat about 2 lbs. of meat/bone/organ + extras (eggs, kefir, veggies, supplements, etc.) per day. If you go to the raw food forum there’s a thread with recommended menus, you can check out what I feed my girls there. “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown is a great book for beginners getting started on homemade raw.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 7 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[WhippetsGo2]

I am posing this situation for a whippet friend in our club. Their 3 year old whippet was not been eating regularly starting beginning of this summer. Tried different foods and such to no avail. Just recently he refused to go on a walk and at the same time the owner noticed that his breathing pattern was off. He was taken to the vet and they discovered through a chest x-ray that he had fluid in his lungs. They drained the fluid, sent it out for testing and it came back as being chylous. They were told, in layman’s terms that means he has trouble digesting fats. He was put on a prescription low fat diet and eating again but 12 days later his breathing symptoms came back and he was rushed to the vet where they extracted even more fluid from his lungs. The vet wants to give the low fat diet a chance to work but if the fluid should return a third time, he wants to do an ultrasound to see if there are any heart issues associated.

In my rudimentary searches, the appearance of fat is expected in chylous fluid. Anyone have any experience? Onset of heart disease? Want to help my peeps ask the right questions.

Brian
4 x Whippets for racing, coursing, agility & show
Feeds raw, supplements with 6 Fish and Stella’s Freeze Dried for the road.

[emchide]

Hi everyone, and thanks for such an informative site with a lot of informative posts by those willing to share their hard-learned experiences. I’ve been poring over a lot of the discussions and digging in to the facts presented, and I’m trying hard not to duplicate questions already asked.

One manufacturer I came across seems not to have a presence on this website yet – it’s listed in the topic, GreenTripe.com. What particularly intrigues me are their various formulations using trachea, gullet, and pancreas, among others. What do you experienced raw food people think of this variation? At a glance, it looks like shipping costs might be somewhat prohibitive unless ordering in serious bulk.

I’m thinking my best bet to start is simply checking with the local grocers for various RMBs and organs on the cheap and using those as well as eggs, yogurt, and so on as a topper for grain-free kibble (currently rotating among Halo Puppy Salmon, Halo Surf and Turf, Nature’s Variety Instinct Duck, and Nature’s Variety Instinct Rabbit with canned toppings like Wellness Core and Solid Gold Green Cow Tripe). Ideally I would eventually transition to all home-prepared ingredients but I definitely need to read up more on vegetables and supplements for a while first.

Oh, and my dog is a four-month old boxer/pit mix – he’s growing like a weed and I’m slightly concerned we’ve been using a few too many treats for training in addition to his three meals a day as he’s gone from 13 lbs on June 12 when we adopted him to 32 currently, but he seems healthy as a horse and has great energy. The only issue seems to be some scratching and itching which has somewhat receded as his flea treatment has kicked in (I still find fleas on him but they seem unwell and are easy to catch and crush), but he came home on SD of course from the SPCA so I am hoping that dietary improvements might eliminate any potential skin issues if they exist.

I look forward to gleaning a lot more valuable knowledge from these discussions, and thanks again for expending the energy to inform more people – I really appreciate the love-driven data!

• This topic was modified 12 years, 7 months ago by emchide.
• This topic was modified 12 years, 7 months ago by emchide.

[Hound Dog Mom]

I second MPC – great stuff. I wish I was in their delivery zone. I order from them sometimes but usually end up going with Hare Today because Hare Today is closer and has cheaper shipping to NY. I highly recommend MPC’s green tripe supermix and their ground lamb supreme. Just keep in mind MPC only sells meat/bone/organ “grinds”, tripe, offal, RMBs, etc. – this is not complete and balanced raw and if it’s going to make up a significant portion of your pup’s diet you’ll need to learn how to properly balance it.

[little pea]

PattyV

The leaky gut. I read about this a few days prior and was shocked. Especially because the girl’s highest allergy was to yeast. And I knew stolen loaves of bread from the counter were having some effect.
In addition in Feb/March we had one of the worst bouts of overall scratching, paw chewing and ear infection. The weather was wet and she had been recently professionally groomed. And dog loves to just stand or lay down in the rain. Primary suspect yeast infection . So began a steroid, pills, and medicated ear wash… the ears taking over 2 weeks to clear.
She looked and acted perfect in April/May.
Late May blowing coat and itching, itching and coat continues to fall well into June. Itching starts up, I don’t recall heavy paw chewing. I flew in a professional newf groomer prior to a late June show and we had long talks on coat care, drying, etc etc… and etc And a steroid shot.
I do not think we have leaky gut, but my gut says yeast is on a high watch list.
I did talk to a Holistic vet clinic and they even suggested a special Derm vet…which does scratch test as opposed to blood. I thinks it is too far to go.
The dog’s skin at this time is in perfect condition and has been since April. Yet we continue with the face, ear, and frequent scratch to those areas and a frontal paw chew. After switching to Ziwi peak venison in June red eyes and the clear discharge have pretty much been eliminated. No red eyes.

The newbie in me is digging for answers, but I feel some simple solutions are more practical.
A raw diet…with supplements. Just need to figure it all out.
Thank-you.
You seem to be, a pretty sharp cookie.

[Hound Dog Mom]

If you have the time making homemade raw would be much cheaper and it would be easier to tailor the diet to your dog’s specific food issues.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Okay gotcha. No, what we feed wouldn’t be considered “prey model.” Those that follow prey model believe dogs should eat meat, bones and organs only – nothing else. Many refer to ground raw meat and veggie diets as “BARF” style. I would consider my feeding style to be a BARF/Prey Model Hybrid. My dogs get a prey model style dinner each night (RMBs and whole offal) but their breakfast is ground with veggies and whole food supplements.

As far as garlic it’s very beneficial if given in small quantities but I’m not sure how much it would increase the palatability. My girls get a couple cloves three days per week. Garlic is a natural broad-spectrum antibiotic. Garlic is also a prebiotic and contains antibacterial, anti-fungal, anti-viral and anti-carcinogenic properties. The sulfur content also acts as a natural insect repellent. You’d want to give the following amounts 3 – 4 days per week: under 10 lbs – 1/4 clove; 10 to 20 lbs. – half a clove; 20 to 50 lbs. – 1 clove; 50 to 75 lbs. – 2 cloves; 75 to 100 lbs. – 2 and a half cloves; 100 lbs. and over – 3 cloves.

[EHubbman]

I should clarify a bit, haha! The things I was reading were more along the lines of 50% meat/bone/organ and 50% raw fruit and veg (or other ratios around those amounts), which is why I was wanting to stay away from those, because that kinda seems like an obnoxious amount of fruit/veg. I was finding these ratios on pages for the BARF diet, where prey model raw pages were more towards meat/bone/organs with supplements.

More what I mean by feeling more towards prey model is what I’m seeing more frequently here and among those I know that feed raw. The main majority of the meal is meat/bone/organ, but they do supplement with good stuff. (Am I calling it the wrong thing by saying prey model?)

Patty, that mix sounds like a good treat! I’m sure Dom would love it, he loves frozen treats.

HDM, Thanks! I’ll definitely be checking in on those books. A good friend just recommended “Raw and Natural Nutrition for Dogs: The Definitive Guide to Homemade Meals” by Lew Olson, so I’ve been trying to read that.

Random thought, since I’ve seen it a few times on forums: Garlic for dogs? I would think that since it’s a member of the allium family, wouldn’t it be bad for dogs? Yet I see people saying “add it to the food to make your dog eat it!”

[EHubbman]

Kind of in the same vein as feeding green things- I’m noticing some raw diet resources are mentioning the feeding of fruits and veggies. You guys’ thoughts on this? I personally think I’ll be sticking more with prey model raw, but just curious on what you guys have to say.

[beagleowner]

Started making dog food for Henry beagle. Consists of ground chicken thighs or lean hamburger, sweet potatoes, kale, peas, carrots, eggs. We are feeding him 2-1/2cups per day. He did weigh 48.4 lbs. and now is at 45.6. Our vet would like to see him get to 40 lbs. We also bought marrow soup bones and after he eats one, we fill it with pumpkin, freeze it and give as a nighttime treat. It makes his stoold loose. He is 14 yrs old and of course loves to eat. We also give him two chewable glucosamine tabs a day and one omega-3capsule that our vet suggested and sold to us.. Henry has lipomas (one very large). They have decreased on this homemade diet. My problem is that he is hungry and I am wondering if his nutrition is sound. (Of course I realize hounds can be constantly looking for food). I thought I could add some organic brown rice to his meal for bulk. When I called our vet to ask, the reply was to give him Hills ID, half homemade and half Hills. Well that puts me back to manufactured dog food. We were feeding him expensive kibble before and it contributed to his lipomas. Wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this. I don’t want to undo the good the homemade has done and yet I want to make sure he gets a good nutritious diet. We tried raw– no luck.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi EHubbman –

It’s all pretty confusing when you start out isn’t it?

I would like to start out by saying I strongly disagree with those that say supplements aren’t necessary for a raw diet. The thing is, if a dog was eating whole wild prey daily this may be true but that’s not practical in real life. It would be next to impossible to feed an actual prey model diet so people approximate it by feeding ratios of muscle meat, organ meat and bone (80:10:10) that mimic the ratios found in a whole prey animal. While this is a good estimate of the dog’s natural diet, it’s not going to provide all the nutrients a dog needs for various reasons: 1) Your dog isn’t getting the whole animal. When a dog eats prey in the wild it eats everything – all the organs, the glands, the brain, eyeballs, fur, feathers, sinew, some intestines and intestinal content, it even picks up some dirt of the ground where it’s eating. 2) Commercially raised meat such as what is available to us in the supermarket is not as mineral dense as wild prey. 3) Domestic dogs are bombarded with toxins on a daily basis that their wild relatives aren’t – i.e.) flea treatments, heart worm treatments, vaccines, exhaust fumes, cleaning chemicals, etc. etc. – and for this reason benefit from additional antioxidants in their diet that are provides through fruits, vegetables and whole super foods.

You do not need to supplement with enzymes when feeding a raw diet. Raw food contains enzymes. These enzymes are destroyed when the food is cooked and this is why kibble and canned foods should be supplemented with enzymes. Probiotic supplements are also a waste of money unless you have a dog with serious digestive issues. Feeding green tripe and/or plain yogurt and/or kefir at least a few times a week will maintain a healthy population of gut flora in a healthy dog.

You will need to add supplemental omega 3’s. You can do this by adding a quality fish body oil, cage free eggs or feeding a fatty fish such as sardines. If you want to feed sardines the recommend servings are (based on 3.75 oz. tin): 5 lbs. 1/4 tin, 15 lbs. 1/2 tin, 25 lbs. 5/8 tin, 50 lbs. 1 tin, 100 lbs. 1 3/4 tin – per week. If giving fish oil you want to add enough to provide about 100 mg. combined EPA and DHA per 10 lbs. of body weight. While the majority of a dog’s omega 3’s should come from animal sources, some plant based omega 3’s can be beneficial as well. If you’re feeding predominantly poultry, flax should be given to balance the fats and if you’re feeding predominantly red meat hemp seed should be given to balance the fats. My dogs get a cage free egg 3 days per week, Carlson brand salmon oil complete (with astaxanthin) daily and I also give small amounts of sprouted flax, sprouted chia, etc. If not supplementing with vitamin d, you should give cod liver oil as well. Carlson makes the highest quality cod liver oil – my girls each get 1 capsule of Carlson Super Cod Liver Oil daily which provides 250 IU vitamin d. If giving fish oil it’s very important not to skimp on quality – fish oil is one supplement you don’t want to find a bargain on. The cheaper brands are often rancid at purchase and don’t contain enough antioxidants to prevent oxidation. Coconut oil, as Patty pointed out, is comprised of MCT’s. Coconut oil can be given in addition to (but not instead of) omega 3’s. Coconut oil has antibacterial and antifungal properties. You can give up to 1/2 tsp. per 10 lbs. of body weight daily. My girls get coconut oil daily, I find it’s a healthy way to increase the fat level of their meals.

As Sandy pointed out, vitamin e is also necessary to add – this is especially important when supplementing with omega 3’s as vitamin e prevents the delicate fats from oxidizing in the body. For dogs <25 add 50 – 100 IU per day, 25 – 50 lbs. 100 – 200 IU per day, 50 – 75 lbs. 200 – 300 IU per day, 75 – 100 lbs. 300 – 400 IU per day, >100 lbs. 400 IU per day. I use NOW Foods Gamma E Complex – it has all 8 tocopherols and tocotrienols.

Other supplements my dogs get:

-A homemade super food mix. I generally use 1 part kelp, 1 part alfalfa, 1 part spirulina, 1 part wheat grass and 1 part bee pollen although I’ll sometimes sub in a different ingredient for variety. I buy most of my ingredients from Swanson or Starwest Botanicals in 1 lb. bags. This provides vital trace nutrients to the diet. I’d recommend about 1 tsp per 25 – 30 lbs. (roughly) for a supplement such as this.

-I give my dogs colostrum 3 days per week. Colostrum is high in immunoglobulins which helps strengthen the immune system.

-They get a glandular 3 days per week (opposite the colostrum). I use Natural Sources Raw Multiple.

If you read through the raw menu section I have my dog’s full menus (with supplements) posted.

I prefer to balance my dog’s diets using whole foods versus adding synthetic supplements. The nutrients from whole foods are more efficiently assimilated by the body and contain all the necessary co-factors for optimal absorption and utilization. There’s also a much lower chance of overdosing on nutrients when using whole foods.

If you have any more questions don’t be afraid to ask. 🙂

• This reply was modified 12 years, 8 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[theBCnut]

I know what you mean. I couldn’t keep up either and I kept getting certain things mixed up(still do) so I started an index card file to tell me what certain supplements are good for and what dose to give. I still have to go back through a couple threads and pick out th info I wanted to save. Like cod liver oil, I think you give it for the Vit D, but I’m not sure. And You have to be careful to get the right brand(I don’t remember which) or don’t give it very often, because it has too much vit A, again I think. That is one I don’t worry about because I only feed part raw. But one of these days…

BTW, cocnut oil is digested differently because it is a medium chain triglyceride, so it isn’t taxing to the pancreas if you find you need to add more fats to your dogs diet for some reason. It has both antibacterial and antifungal activity and it is good for the coat.

[theBCnut]

WOW!! That is a lot of questions. Some of them HDM is the best source for answers, but I can tackle a few.

Probiotics are the good micro-organisms in the gut and they are a huge part of the immune system, because they compete with bad micro-organisms and thereby keep their numbers small. They are naturally occurring in tripe.

Prebiotics are food for probiotics, they are fibers that the probiotics love, they aren’t all created equal though, some prebiotics feed the bad stuff just as well as the good.

Enzymes carry nutrients where they need to go in the body and aid in digestion. There are already enzymes in raw meat, but in processing for kibble they are destroyed. Dogs make enzymes, but some do not make enough, because they were made to get them out of their food. And the body adjusts enzyme production to match the diet, so if a dog was getting a high carb, low protein diet for a long time, it may take a while for its body to get used to the different need for enzymes when the diet is changed. Digestive enzymes are the ones that are specific to digestion.

Spirulina is a blue green algae that is chockful of micronutrients, which are all the little things that a body probably needs, but science hasn’t determined how much of what or what for, so dog food companies don’t have to add them back into the food.

Fish oil, fish body oil are sources of omega 3s and need to be fresh so putting it in a bag of kibble may not be a good thing. Krill are little shrimp, otherwise the same applies to fish oil. Krill oil is supposed to be better. It has some of those micronutritents in it and a higher level of quality omega 3s.

As for why some say use them, don’t use them etc. There are what I consider raw food purists, that don’t feed anything except whole carcass raw prey. Period. They believe that since that is how wolves evolved, that is what you should feed dogs. Then there are those that recognize that we don’t live in that world anymore. That the world we do live in has pollution and food animals that were not raised as prefectly as we could want and therefore are lacking some of those things that if we lived in a perfect world they would have. They feed antioxidant rich foods to help rid the body of toxins and other foods to help make up for the perceived lack in the prey animals. And then there is every shade in between.

My fingers hurt, someone else will have to provide more. Or I will later.

[EHubbman]

Complete newbie here! Reading the forums, I see so many things on prebiotics, probiotics, enzymes, digestive enzymes, fish oil, krill oil, emu(?) oil, cod liver oil, fish body oil, coconut oils, etc, the list goes on and on! (What the heck is spirulina?)

What are these things, and what do they do? What are the pros/cons of giving them? Where do they come from (supplements v. naturally occurring, such as in a specific part of a raw diet)? When is it appropriate to give them, and how much per day per weight of dog?

Sorry for all the questions! Like I said, complete newbie, and looking in to starting a raw diet with my little guy. Some people say “yes, supplement!” While others say “Yes, but only THESE supplements,” while still others say “no, don’t supplement! If you feed raw right, you don’t have to!”

There’s so much info out there and this fourm has been such a wonderful help on other issues, I thought I’d throw this one out there.

Thank you for the help!

[SandyandMila]

I have a 5 lb. box of pork neck bones I haven’t opened yet because I’m waiting for my Hare Today order to come in. By then it’ll be about 3 weeks since putting them in the freezer and I’ll be starting and all raw diet. I think I’ll start with the neck bones and see how she likes it. Just wanted to know what others thought of ground pork. 🙂

[Hershy]

Hi, Patty,
Thanks for your post. Well said about the topic of Vets and animal nutrition…always room for improvement, right?…by me, too! I definitely plan to do a much better job feeding my “kids” a delicious and healthy diet.

HI, HDM & Patty,
And looks like I may get a second chance with my Charlotte girl. I am thankful that Charlotte’s cancer screen came back negative yesterday evening, but Vet held back saying there was none, in that she said she sampled only a small portion, so could still be early stages. I’ll take that, and look at it as another chance to do a better job with her. If she has it, at least it is very early.
Thanks, HDM and Patty, for encouraging me to go ahead with the test. Of course I needed to know. Not sure what I was thinking.
Now, moving forward with her new diet, mostly raw. I will start with her, and slowly add the other 3. Although I have already transitioned all to 4 & 5 star kibble. I top my puppy, Crystal’s, Nutri-Source Lg. Breed puppy food with Merrik Grain Free Tripe, and the 3 big dogs have been getting Pro Balance Canned as a topper.
I can’t thank you all enough for this education I continue to receive. How I nourish my dogs will keep improving, and I will definitely keep in touch with this forum.
Will soon add the raw food forum to my list of preferred reading : )
Patty, hope your dog’s result was at least as good.
Thanks, again!

[EHubbman]

Ok! Back from the vet!

I was seriously not impressed with the care we got from the one I’d been bringing family pets to since I was six, so we went elsewhere. That seriously miffed me. They’d been great with all our other pets, but then I brought in my little guy at 14 weeks (!) and I think the vet just had it out for him because he’s seen as a bully breed. Vets shouldn’t be breedist, methinks, because they see good and bad examples of all breeds, big and small, bad rep or not. Off my soapbox, though. She wouldn’t believe me when I said he had tapeworms and even brought in a sample with the segment clearly sitting right on top, among other things. I talked to her about giardia and she’s like, no he doesn’t have it, without testing and seemed quite reluctant upon my insistence of it.

SO! New vet, recommended from a friend, who also happens to be a vet tech there, which was wonderful. They were going to run the EPI and fecal pathogen test, but the vet did a wellness check on him and his body condition, activity level, and personality were all awesome, so we’re starting first with a diet change. She said the funny color stools were because the last vet’s response to my saying “please help, diarrhea for a month now” was just to throw antibiotics at him that did nothing, so his gut is all sort of out of whack. The did a wellness check, fecal float, coccidia and giardia tests, and a few other things I don’t remember off the top of my head.

We’re trying a royal canin RX GI food (ewewew, I cringe at the ingredient list!) for two weeks. So for two weeks, all he’s allowed to ingest is the GI food, and boiled chicken as training treats. She wants to keep him on the Fortiflora (because she’s used to it) just for now, but when I asked her about the 15 strain supplement you told me about, she was all for it. We went for the abrupt change because his gut is so messed up, and once he’s stable we’re going to slowly transition him to raw. I love that I found a vet that is all for raw and can’t wait to help me swap to it!!! She seems amazing, and I love her team. 🙂 If, though, the 2 week seriously limited diet does nothing, though, then he gets to go through a gauntlet of testing. She’s almost completely certain, though, that it’s dietary and not anything seriously wrong, which helps me breathe easier.

Although I’m not a fan of the GI food ingredients and fortiflora, I’m ok with it for now, just to get him sorted. I want to give this vet a chance to try what she knows before I just go “Ew, no.” and be the brat that asks for help but won’t accept what’s given as help. That and because she wants to start working him toward raw asap. Who knows. We’ll see where it goes.

Not sure I’m gonna be able to deal with the puppy eyes when he doesn’t get to have his dried trachea…or bully sticks… or duck feeties…. o.o Haha!

[Hershy]

Thank you, for getting back to me so quickly. I appreciate your wisdom and advice. You’re right. I need to know. I didn’t mean to make the cost of the test seem like the first consideration. I am on a pretty tight budget, but I will find a way to do what I need to do. I am putting the cart before the horse. I pray she doesn’t have cancer. She’s my special girl! I guess I have to prepare myself for the worst. I called them and told them to go ahead with the test. But I do know, if she does have it, I will not make her undergo a bunch of chemical treatment (as far as I know). I will to the alternative route for treatment, if necessary. And thank you for the information on what things to avoid, and to give. She is going to start on a raw diet as soon as I can get it together! I was making my own for part of last year, but got too busy. Poor Charlotte has been on inferior food for most of her life because I didn’t know any better. I have always switched up foods a little, but usually didn’t end up being to a food that was any better for her. They all claim to be the best. I am so grateful for this site. Why don’t dog food companies and especially VETS! learn about dog nutrition?? And then to recommend SCIENCE DIET!? I just wish I had seen this site 5 years ago,and maybe Charlotte wouldn’t be having these issues now.

I’m picking Charlotte up from the vet this evening, so am hoping for the best.
Thanks, again.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Yes, as long as you are feeding grinds that contain meat/organ/bone in the proper proportions (such as the case with Primal and Bravo) and these grinds make up less than half of her diet (i.e. kibble for breakfast and grind for dinner) you would be fine just adding a whole food supplement (or even no supplement, but I believe whole food supplements are very beneficial). Are you able to get the Primal mixes? I used these when I first started feeding raw. I believe they’re 80% meat/organ/bone and 20% fruits, veggies and herbs. To use up the rest of your Preference I say just pick up some ground beef or turkey at the grocery store and use that following the instructions on the package.

[SandyandMila]

Can I just use the one I got periodically, it’s a big bottle that I really don’t want it to go to waste. I can add the green superfood to her diet once I get it and give her less of the multi. If I feed Preference with her homemade raw which has vitamins and minerals including kelp and alfalfa do I still need a green or multi supplement? I know HDM said u can’t overdose on them, just want to make sure I know what I’m doing. She’s already been getting bee pollen and the commercial raw she’s had has coconut oil, salmon oil, and ACV so I’d just be giving those with the homemade raw, right? The dry and wet food is only one or two days a week and will be less once my Hare Today order comes in.