[Dori]

I feed commercial raw as well as home cooked raw. I feed both Primal Pronto Beef, and Lamb. They make other proteins but one of my girls has allergies to all things poultry so those are the two I stick to. I also feed Darwins. Darwins is less expensive and also less in fat content. I have three toy dogs. One is a 14 1/2 year old Maltese, 4 1/2 year old Maltipoo and 4 year old Yorkipoo. I have to admit that they are all chow hounds and have never met a meal they don’t inhale and certainly haven’t turned down. They have done equally as well with Primal as they have with Darwin’s. I feed a rotational diet so both Darwins and Primal as well as other commercial raws are in my freezer. Primal Prontos are geared to be able to scoop and serve. It is raw but little bits (somewhat like the size of kibble) and defrosts very quickly on the kitchen counter in their bowls which is really very convenient when I’ve forgotten to take some other raw from the freezer. Doesn’t happen often but it does happen.

[Dori]

You are in a truly unique and enviable situation. Under those circumstances I would do exactly what you do. Unfortunately I’ve not been able to find a holistic vet here that I’m comfortable with. The holistic vet here in my area that has the best reputation prescribes cooking the dogs diet so obviously since it goes against what I have learned on this site about a raw diet and have seen the results with my own eyes, she’s not for me or my dogs. Traditional vet, of course, advises year round heart worm preventative. In the Northeast it was recommended for Summer not Winter. I’m afraid that mind set stayed with me. Living in the humid South I should have been preventing year round. You are lucky to have all those resources around you and your wealth of knowledge. Honestly, you’re like a walking talking encyclopedia. Love it!

[pfeiner]

A friend just mentioned Darwin’s Raw diet. I have been successfully feeding Primal for a while now however Darwin’s is significantly less expensive and with two Lab’s. costs add up quickly. Anyone have any feedback re:- Darwin etc.
Thanks loads!

[Hamlin38]

Hi Dr. Mike,

I haven’t seen a rating on Sojourner Farms, or Sojo’s.

That’s been my dog’s diet for over a year. I like it. Well, and they do to.

I prefer it over the other freeze dried raw foods because the protein/fat content is lower than say Stella & Chewey’s or Primal. Not that I haven’t heard or seen great things with dogs who’s diets consists of the latter, the price/volume ratio is greater than what I can afford.

There is a downside to Sojo’s I have to admit. After rehydration, the Guaranteed Analysis for Protein/Fat is greatly reduced. So much so I have to add my own because I have big! active and young dogs.

And it’s reported to me that the stool is greater -which I’d expect from Dry Dog Food -which I refuse to serve. Bad for the teeth, bad for the digestive tract, bad for the adrenal system -the biological filter intended to remove undigestible material like ash -which any dry dog food is chocked full of.

Quick aside: I don’t know how many people come to me and say, but what about their teeth? The crunchy’s clean their teeth. Dr. Mike, you know in your profession, Captain Crunch doesn’t do well for dental health. Nor does any carb -and that’s what it takes to bind the ingredients to make a kibble.

NO DRY FOOD! EVER!

[weezerweeks]

I,ve been cooking chicken,quinoa,peas,and carrots sometimes for my dog. I add natures logic all food fortifier in it. This probable is not a complete diet for him so I don’t do it very often even though the fortifier seems like a complete diet. He loves cooked chicken so my question is if I order see spot live longer dinner mixes and add it to the chicken what else would I need to add for it to be complete. I want to start cooking for him but I can not do raw.I think I’m going to order the book by dr. Becker. Any easy ideas for complete dinner with chicken or beef would be appreciated.

[aimee]

Hi losul,

First I’m so sorry for what you and your dog are going through. I myself have nightmares that I get that dreaded call in which I’m told my dog has heartworms. I know that giving less of the pill and less frequently than recommended is likely playing heavily on your mind. In actuality we don’t know what role that played as sometimes dogs on full prevention protocols come up positive too.

I’m sure this is scarey. I’ll try an answer your questions to the best of my ability.

Do you need a second opinion? If you want to look further, have a different type of test done vs a different vet who may be using the same brand test. There can be false positives on a heartworm test, but they are rare.

The fact that they saw microfilaria kinda clinches the diagnosis. There are other microfilaria that can be seen in blood, Dipetalonema comes to mind and a parasitologist can likely identify them for you. The sample may need to be sent to a university vet school. But really the chance you have both a false positive and a different type of microfilaria seems unlikely …I think you would be grasping at straws …

Should you consider slow kill? I’ll give you my opinion for what it is worth, I wouldn’t. I can’t put my hand on it at this moment. Will look for it if you want but as I remember in dogs treated with slow kill considerable ongoing lung damage occurred UNLESS the dogs were on complete exercise restriction for the entire duration. Your dog is young, I’m guessing active, and would be difficult to keep continually crated for nearly a year plus(?) of his life. There also is some speculation that slow kill may be contributing to resistance. Unless your dog is clear of microfilaria during a slow kill treatment ( meaning your dog has microfilaria because of your dosing and not strain) your dog will be infecting others with a resistant strain and spreading resistance.

Should you use moxidectin? So far as I know of only one study that compared efficacy head to head and moxidectin was more effective when given as a single dose. Time will tell if that holds: one study one strain. The moxidectin treated dogs didn’t develop heartworm with only one dose post exposure whereas dogs given 1 dose ivermectin or milbemycin did develop worms. Dogs given 3 monthly doses of milbemycin post exposure were also clear. As I recall this test was done with a strain thought to have resistance.

Moxidectin is also the drug in Pro Heart injections. Is a continuous yet decreasing amount of moxidectin as effective as monthly peak doses? I don’t have any answers for you, I think though it has failed whereas the monthly topical has not due to higher blood concentrations with monthly pulse doses.

I’ve noted on Trifexis (milbemycin) commercials it states to give for 3 months post exposure whereas Sentinal Spectum (milbemycin) has upped that to 6 monthly doses post exposure. For now my dogs get milbemycin, same day each month year round. If I lived in heartworm land… southern states where resistance is being seen I’d choose moxidectin. Likely if my vet was saying moxidectin topical I’d go with it trusting that he/she understands the local strains. I don’t mess around with heartworm prevention.

The preventatives I can think of are ivermectin ( heartgard and others), selamectin( Revolution) milbemycin( sentinal, trifexis,) moxidectin( advantage multi, proheart) diethylcarbamazine (daily still available???)

Should you vaccinate? This is beyond my ability to answer. I think your vet is the best person to answer this one.

Trembling/ fearful…. two things come to mind: pain and fear unrelated to pain. Fears can be to unusual scents, sounds (electrical equipment, ultrasonic, rodents etc ) Pain… any lip licking swallowing drooling that might help you pinpoint it?
.
Again I’m so sorry you are going through this…your vet is the best one to help you through this. The American Heartworm Society guidelines are written as they are for a reason…. If it was me I’d make use of them: 3 injections and doxy. Best of luck

[losul]

I just discovered Tuesday evening that our dog Turbo has heartworm infection. It came as a huge shock, as i thought I was being meticulous with his care and his diet. Almost as bad, I am probably to blame for it, and I am sickened and upset by this. I was using
Heartguard+ chewables. I was trying to minimize his toxin exposure, so I didn’t give year round, just for the approximately 7 months mosquito season, and every 35 days instead of 30. Also, because Turbo is 34 pounds and I had the box for 26-50lbs, I was only giving him 2/3 of the chew. Lastly I was keeping the HG in the refrigerator, and now I found out that HG isn’t supposed to be refrigerated and they can’t guarantee the efficacy when refrigerated. I just called them and reported the case to them, telling them all the truth about the situation.

I don’t want to write our life story, sorry about the lengthy post, I’m just trying to get all the info out, so I can hopefully get some good advice to help me make the best decisions. Turbo is approximately 32 months old, 34 pounds, a boston terrier mix, we think maybe mixed with staffordshire or pit, but almost certainly mixed with some kind of bully type. We adopted him from our County’s Animal control about 1.5 years ago. He spent somewhere around 1/2 of the first 14 months of his life in 2 different sessions at the County shelter, and evidently 1 session at a City shelter. It was the first dog we have had in about 7 years, after having had many previously, for most of my life. We were out of the loop on most things dog, so I got very studied up on it, wanting to do things as right as possible, before we even started looking for another dog. I knew the type ( boston terrier or mix) I wanted and knew that I would put him on a raw diet before we even got him, and so be it, within 3 or 4 weeks we had him on about a 60% raw, 40% commercial diet, with no problems ever, except some gas for awhile.

Turbo is very handsome, charming, and playful, but can be rude, stubborn, very assertive, sometimes defiant. We love him the way he is, he’s always been a joy, and no real problems at all, except some assertion/agression (not fearful aggression) towards certain dogs, usually only the largest dogs or bully types. He’s completely different (quirks) than any other dog we’ve ever had, but for us, he’s really a perfect fit, and is always well behaved in the house.

We’ve been in search of a great dog Vet since we got Turbo. Tuesday’s visit was the 4th different vet. I had set up an appointment ahead of time for his upcoming rabies shot, and to test the waters with a new (and hopefully permanent) vet. In the meantime Turbo had a really strange and scary issue that happened Saturday evening and lasting into Sunday. An hour or so after he had his Saturday evening meal, and totally not typical, he began “hiding” in a corner of the house, or he would go to either the basement door or the back door. We take him through the basement into the garage when we go in the car. He goes out the back door into our yard. He also started very visibly trembling, looking very sheepish, and scared. He would not take a treat at all, so totally untypical of him. Once outside, he did not want to come back in at all, wanting to lay on a chair on the deck instead, even though it was quite cold and he doesn’t like cold for long. We’d make him come back in only to do the same again. Sitting in the corner at the end of the hall or at the basement door or the back door. He acted like he just wanted to be out of the house and maybe even away from us, seemed afraid of me for no reason, and the trembling hard, very scary. So not typical, Turbo has NEVER been fearful of anything that I know of, but he just did NOT want to be in the house at all. I eventually took him for a short car ride, and he seemed to have perked up some. So we got back into the house just a little bit reluctantly. He then took a treat fairly eagerly, but after taking a second one, he suddenly just dropped it and ran away to the corner again. The trembling and strange behavior again too. We nearly took him to the emergency clinic. It later subsided though, and eventually he went to bed right beside me, where I watched him the rest of the night. He seemed to sleep well. Next day, just a little more of the same scary stuff, and then he ate his typical raw morning meal. Soon after eating he started acting better throughout the day (Sunday). He never vomited nor had diarrhea nor showed any obvious pain through the whole ordeal.

Baffled, I spent most of Sunday researching the trembling symptoms. Nothing seemed really to fit at all, but I was concerned about problems like kidney/liver. I contemplated all sorts of things such as Lyme or tickborne illness ( he had a tick on his ear that I didn’t catch right away, it was November and we had already had several hard freezes. The tick left a pea sized nodule that lasted about two months. Friday evening he chewed on a cow hoove awhile until I took it away from him, because he had broken off a rather large sharp shard. Saturday morning he had his typical raw meal, but his evening meal was not quite as typical. Usually he gets 2/3 cup kibble matched with 1/3 of a can food, or 3/4 cup kibble and an egg, or sardines. This time I gave him less than 1/2 cup kibble + about 4 ounces of canned salmon + 1 egg cooked in coco oil, and i added about 1/2 t of nutritional yeast. i think I’ve added a very small amount of yeast to his raw mix before, but not completely sure. So thoughts of a bad reaction to the yeast also came into play, along with thoughts of too much fat at once. Even the thought of a ghost in the house came up.

Monday morning I called the vets office an\d told them I thought we needed to put the rabies shot on hold, and instead get him checked and do some blood work to get to the bottom of this. Tues evening: I explained everything to the techs and the vet as best I could, even that I home prepped over 1/2 of his diet. He asked me what I was feeding him and I told him him briefly, just didn’t come out and say”raw”, but I think he knew it. He didn’t ask if raw and seemed satisfied with what I was feeding and supplementing. This
vet spent alot of time with us, well over an hour, didn’t admonish for anything, wasn’t arrogant in the least, didn’t “push” anything , and so far I think I like him O.K. He examined Turbo and was pleased with his apparent health. So he didn’t push any lab work at all. I still elected to go with an outside lab wellness blood work, along with an in house tick borne illness and heartworm check.

I was floored when they came back and said he was both pos on the antigen and microfiliae HW tests. He was negative on the tickborne. He explained the clinic’s HW protocol; 1) monthly HW preventative for 2 months prior to treatment, and continuing throughout treatment and beyond. 2)Doxycycline. for 2 weeks prior to treatment.3) first immiticide treatment (injection); dexamethasone injection, tramadol injection. Hospital overnight, strict confinement until returning for next treatment.4) doxycycline again for 2 weeks prior to immiticide treatment. 5) 2nd immiticide treatment. ( 2 injections 24 hours apart), dexamethasone and tramadol injections given daily with each treatment. Hospitalized for 3 days and 2 nights. strict confinement at home 30 days 6) Heartworm check 6 months afdter last immiticide injection to confirm elimination of heartworms.

He also explained the clinic’s preferred HW preventative – Advantage multi – a topical application, (imidacloprid for fleas which Turbo does not have + moxidectin, the HW preventative, which is supposedly absorbed through the skin). I didn’t even realize they had a topical for HW. I told him I would rather not use an insecticide for fleas that he didn’t need. He said alternatives (such as heartguard) could be used but may not be as effective, in his opinion. I then mentioned that I recalled hearing about a “slow kill” method. He seemed a little stunned, and said that that method was actually more dangerous, wasn’t as reliable and it could take much longer if it even worked. I again expressed my concern about all the toxins, especially the arsenic/immiticide.

He didn’t think the trembling episode was HW related at all, although he didn’t offer any real explanation for it. Also he thought it would be fine for him to go ahead and get the rabies vaccination, or I could wait for the outside lab’s bloodwork results in a day or 2. I told him we would definitely wait.
—–

Here’s where I need advice;

Do you think I should get another HW test from another vet along with a second opinion?

Should I consider a slow kill method vs the clinic’s protocol?

Should I use heartguard or another ivermection based HWP vs the advantage multi, moxidectin based? Is their any other moxidectin based without other insecticides included? Is there another one more effective than the others? Are there any other HWP’s using some different drug altogether?

Should I continue to put on hold the rabies vaccination? if I put off more than a few more days, then he will be past due again, will probably only be able to get the 1 yr vs the 3 yr, and would have to be re-vaccinated again in a year.

Does anyone have anyone input about what could cause the trembling episode?

Any other opinions/advice?

———–

Update: The vet called with the bloodwork results. Everything looked “perfectly normal” he especially stressed the liver and kidney values, the blood cell and platelet counts and values, thyroid, and some other things I don’t recall now, I don’t have a copy yet. What a big relief on that much. I had some more questions to ask, such as should he have X-rays, ultrasound, etc. He could, but didn’t think neccesary nor did he advise it. I asked about the microfilariae count, he said a fair amount? Somewhere I had read about the 3 classes of HW infections. I asked what “class” his condition would be, he replied definitely class 1, which I saw described somewhere (going by memory)as asymptomatic to mild, no radiologic signs, nor signs of anemia. He still encouraged going ahead with the rabies vacination, and strongly urged getting started on the advantage multi soon. But he seemed much more amenable now to a slow kill method, maybe along with doxycycline, before I even asked again, even seemed to kind of go along with it, though he still didn’t recomend it, he still recomended their protocol. He also expressed concern that these worms may be resistant to ivermectin, and it could take a very long time to kill them using it. So he again really encouraged using their Advantage multi. I guess this multi is a new thing.

——-

Any advice/opinions would be very much appreciated, as I’m feeling lost and very worried over this. I think my questions still remain the same after getting the blood work results.

[tecknik]

Point blank- Dinovite does not work. My dog eats a raw diet, very expensive and avoids wheat and grains. About a year ago, she started scratching all the time. Benadryl is what my vet recommended but that is a band-aid to the situation. So, we decided to try this product. I went through almost the entire box and no help whatsoever with the scratching. They offer a money back guarantee. I paid $10 to ship it back. They refunded me the $ but deducted their original shipping costs to me so overall this useless product cost me $16.

[pmsuperstar84]

Half my cats are on Rx diets and looking to change to raw once my IBD kitty is weaned off his meds (Can’t everyone eat the same thing? Oh right, no. That would be too easy! 🙂 ). I will also vouch for World’s Best litter. My vet had us changed after clay litter caused urinary tract issues in one of my cats.

[Naturella]

robertdee,

Thanks for the link! I will definitely look into this product!

So, I looked up the guaranteed analyses of the current mix of food I feed Bruno (Dr. Tim’s, Nutrisca Chicken, and Vets Choice HHE GF), and their fiber contents are 4.5%, 7%, and 5% max respectively. So the mix is actually kind of good on fiber.

I have been adding all kinds of stuff to his kibble though, such as plain yoghurt, pumpkin, ground flax seeds, the usual coconut oil and once-a-week RMB, his first marrow bone (raw, and the bone is still around for gnawing and chewing on), cottage cheese, raw egg, and canned sardines, as well as the occasional dehydrated natural chews (ears, bully sticks, fish skins, chicken necks, lamb tendons, etc.). I am going to develop a schedule for adding all these in his weekly meals so that the additional calories, fat, fiber, and protein are somewhat evenly distributed in his diet. I am also cutting down his kibble to 3/4 cup from 1 cup because of the additives, but I will make sure the calorie intake stays about the same.

So far his poops have overall improved, and I have a feeling it is the additional moisture, and the yoghurt. I always keep plain yoghurt at home (love the stuff), so Bruno will have access to it too, just have to figure out how often. But yes, I feel like we are on track with fixing his stool and/or any digestion problems he may have had. 🙂

[NicoleJ]

She is peeing normally, normal amounts, normal color/smell, regular frequency.

She did start licking her paws this past year, could be anxiety related, she has been going a bit senile the past year so things that didn’t use to bother her seem to. But the hair that is in her stool is a mix of her hair and human hair and it’s quite a bit of human hair, so more than just the odd piece stuck to her foot. She did have some kidney work done not too long ago and everything was normal, she was suffering from spay incontinence. I am wondering if there is some sort of hormonal imbalance causing many of these issues as a year and a bit ago she had a mystery illness that ended up being mange which obviously shouldn’t be happening unless there was something messing with her immune system. She has about 20 skin tags as well… had a UTI along with the spay incontinence… so something is out of whack. And I know that hormonal issues can cause digestive problems… so makes me wonder if there is a tumor or something messing with the endocrine system.

As for what she eats… it’s a mixed bag LOL.. I get my raw food from a local raw diet company, they do frozen premixes so I tend to grab a variety. At the beginning of the year when the stool issues were first starting I believe she was getting turkey, with organs, some veg and cranberry, I also throw in sardines here and there, and was giving her canned pumpkin when things were causing issues but it made no difference. Since then she’s had a few other things… chicken, lamb, beef, goat, venison, duck. Doesn’t seem to matter what she eats, her stools don’t change, the only time they do is if she is getting too much bone matter ( I give her a marrow bone to chew on every day, and have to make sure there isn’t much “powdery marrow” or her stools will be little chalk balls.)

[Dori]

Have you asked your vet to check her kidneys? Is she having any skin issues or anxiety of any kind that she would be licking herself and ingesting her hair that way? Just trying to think of things off the top of my head. My girls are on a raw diet and true they don’t drink as much water as they used to when they were on dry but they certainly do drink enough that I’m having to give more water. Is she urinating as she should and are you able to tell if her urine has gotten any darker?

[NicoleJ]

Hi all,

I’m new here, was just looking for a dog forum that encompasses health and diet and had a number of raw feeders so hopefully I’ve come to the right place.

My dog’s name is Dacey, she is a coming 13 year old miniature smooth Dachshund.

Earlier this year she was very “off”.. depressed, lethargic and seemed to be in some sort of discomfort. Her poops were very abnormal ( mostly very thin, or absolutely FULL of hair). But after she passed a few hair balls she was back to her normal self after a few days. Then, about a month later, she had a mysterious front leg lameness(she wouldn’t put any weight on her right front) that also went along with her not pooping for almost 2 days. When I took her to the vet and we determined there was nothing obviously wrong with her leg, but her anal sacs were full.. he dealt with those and voila, she can walk again! LOL. But her poops still aren’t entirely “normal”. She is still having intermittent narrow poops, or very dry “pellet” poops, or very mucusy wet poops, and she still has a lot of hair in them! (im guessing she must be picking it up off the floor, but it’s still weird cause some poops are really full of it and I have never seen her walking around eating things off the floor, so she must be doing it when I’m not home? ) She is raw fed… I’ve been trying to make sure she isn’t getting too much bone material in her food because that definitely causes very dry hard poops. Years ago when she was kibble fed I had to make sure she was getting a high fibre diet because her anal glands would randomly leak if she didn’t get at least 5-7% fibre. But she also pooped 3-4 times a day with that diet. Now she only poops once a day most of the time, and they are much smaller and harder, but she doesn’t have the anal glad leakage either, actually the opposite problem, her anal gland secretions are very thick and may be blocking her ability to poop properly.

I’ve also notice she isn’t drinking nearly as much as she used to. At first I chalked it up to the amount of extra moisture she gets from the raw food, and less fibre, but because she is having these pooping issues, I’m not sure she is getting enough water. She used to drink tons, I’d always have to keep a water dish full in my car for her and now she rarely drinks at all even if we are gone all day on road trips (she is my sidekick, always comes with me for work). When I give her the pinch test her skin isn’t snapping back into place, it hasn’t been for quite a while, but isn’t too bad. She still is full of energy, eats well etc. It’s just the weird pooping issues which makes me think she isn’t drinking enough due to the consistencies. Today I started adding water to her food and will see if that helps. I’m not used to having an older animal who isn’t drinking enough, usually it’s the opposite- Kidney issues and drinking a ton!

anyone else deal with these issues and an older dog?

thanks
Nicole and Dacey

[Shasta220]

I’ve never done home made diets, so I’m terribly sorry – I’m not much help. I completely understand though, I have a cat who is ultra picky. She will not touch ANY type of commercial food (we’ve tried dry, canned, flaked, pouched, refrigerated, you name it, she’s turned her nose up at.). We tried offering her nothing but cat food for a week straight, and she probably would have completely starved herself, she would NOT touch it.

She’s picky about her food now even, so she doesn’t get the nutrition she needs, and it’s showing sadly… I’m jumping on this thread to see what some suggestions might be.

The only way I could think of hiding extra nutrition into their food is by grinding it. I know organ meats and raw bones are important in a balanced diet. Maybe buying a supplemental powder (just general vitamins probably) and try adding that, maybe start with just 1/2 day’s worth, as many animals can detect the smell of it and refuse. Omegas are always one of my favorite additions. My dogs get it with fish oils (salmon, sardine, krill, I think even algae would work), and raw eggs – your dogs may prefer the taste of cooked.

Just play around with how much you can get in there without it being too detected. Possibly try coconut oil as well, it has tons of benefits. Try offering them a teaspoon of organic extra virgin cold-pressed coconut oil. It’s great for their skin, fur, teeth, digestion, and pretty much everything else! Most dogs like it, too.

Hopefully you’ll be able to figure out something that works out perfectly. Have you tried commercial dehydrated, refridgorated, or raw foods? They already have balanced nutrients, so you wouldn’t need to worry about many supplements.

And yes, dog nutrition is very very confusing. Research and reading forums seems to make it worse, as everyone has their own opinions and experiences… Plus, every dog is different, so what works miracles for my dog might do absolutely nothing for yours. Just keep trying to gain information though, I’m sure you’ll slowly start figuring it out. (I’m new to nutrition myself, but the more I’m on here, the more I learn!)

[Shasta220]

If you’re not opposed to cooking for him, I’d highly recommend getting into a raw diet. I believe there are several brands of raw foods on here which already contain the proper amount of nutrients/supplements. The Honest Kitchen is one that I’m thinking of right now… I’d definitely check out the raw forums on here so you can get an idea. It’s very very overwhelming and confusing at first, but after a few days of researching and then a few weeks of perfecting your recipes, you’ll be good to go!
My favorite part about the raw diet is you know /exactly/ what goes into it. No more looking at long ingredient labels, or wondering “hmm…where was this protein sourced from?”

[Sharon Buchanan]

In the numerous raw topics and posts here on DFA and in particular, this topic on recipes, great attention is paid to supplementing raw meats/poultry with veggies, vitamins and others. In reading articles elsewhere on feeding whole prey, we’re told that dogs don’t eat veggies (of course, I’ve never seen a dog take down a cow either), so making sure they get the whole chicken over time or the whole rabbit over time, among others, should provide them with a balanced diet. These two diet/recipe concepts seem contradictory.

Now, I do supplement with coconut oil, curcumen, a c-complex and garlic for reasons I’ve stated elsewhere, in addition to the obvious ones. I’ve taken the advice of Patty and finally found a grocery that carries kafir (which may be hard to continue because the smell gives me indigestion and Mystery reeks of it all day), and I give Mystery a whole egg occasionally – cracked over a coarse grind with the shell.

If I may, I’d like to list the raw meats I have on hand and get some suggestions on the best way to combine them, add to them, improve something or another. I’m hoping to get half a cow in a few weeks from a local farm, but until then I’ve been ordering from MPC. So here’s what I have right now:

Ground Beef Tripe Supermix
Ground Whole Young Beef
Coarse Ground Whole Rabbit
Coarse Ground Whole Chicken
Whole Turkey Necks – they’re huge
Duck Necks
Chicken Feet
RMBs – emphasis on RM
Marrow bones from my local grocery

Mystery’s adult healthy weight averages 85 lbs. (UK Kennel standards (not AKC) for English Creme Golden Retrievers). I had to take my kitten to the vet yesterday and took Mystery with me to get his weight 56.4 lbs – exactly what he weighed at the beginning of January. He’s grown longer as his breed would but his ribs, while not visible, are easily felt. He’s 11 months old. Talked it over with the vet and she wondered if he was a runt – we wondered together. I’ve been feeding him just under 3 lbs. a day over two meals.

So, I guess what I need to know is how to balance the foods listed, whats missing from my raw “pantry”, as well as any ideas on how to bulk him – not a lot, but more than he is. I expect him to reach full growth at about 18 months.

Thanks in advance! Seems the more I know, the less I know.

[Sharon Buchanan]

I just posted this on another thread as part of a larger response. Thought I’d add it to the discussion here.

I’ve been giving Mystery garlic (pest control), and a vitamin C complex (gum health, immune support, antioxidant), from Springtime from the day I brought him home, that hasn’t changed now that he’s on raw. He’s also getting two 825mg capsules of curcumen (variety of cancers, inflammation, among many others), sprinkled on his food and about a tablespoon of coconut oil which I started him on for a skin condition that cleared up in a matter of weeks and continue to give him for a myriad of benefits. I may be adding krill oil to his list of supplements as well.

Patty ~ what’s a supergreen? 3? Is it important to find a bee pollen that is local the way one could get relief from seasonal allergies by eating local honey, or is any bee pollen good for the immune system? Since Mystery is on a full raw diet now, would whole herring, anchovies and sardines be better than the oils (note, I am considering krill oil but only if I can’t find a good source of raw fish)?

[Sharon Buchanan]

Lablubber ~
Just a bit of additional info on some of the ingredients I mentioned that I look out for.

1. Rosemary Extract – Our oldest Golden started having seizures when she was about 3 years old. As Sunset got older her seizures increased so our vet put her on Phenobarbital, a dosage I eventually decreased as she seemed dazed most of the time. When I started researching food for our newest Golden, I discovered an article on the relationship between rosemary extract and increased seizures in humans that have them. If rosemary extract can exacerbate seizures in humans, it goes that it would do the same in a dog with seizures. I immediately got ahold of my husband in Korea and told him to stop feeding Blue Wilderness. Unfortunately, he’s at the mercy of the commissary and they just don’t have any quality foods. As it turned out, she died from cancer at the end of January, she was almost 11. Some dog foods list rosemary, others list rosemary extract. I avoided all extract recipes when I was trying to find a better food for Sunset. There was no indication that rosemary extract causes seizures so it isn’t a concern with Mystery nor the Golden my husband recently adopted. If either started seizing, then rosemary would be a concern again.

2. Canola Oil – We love our Goldens. In the United States, about 69% of all Golden Retrievers over the age of two will die from cancer. Our Sunset joined that 69%. Mystery is an English Creme Golden Retriever. Both of his parents are from Russia. European Goldens have a cancer mortality rate of about 36%. Mystery is enrolled in the Morris Foundation Lifetime Golden Retriever Study on cancer. They have told me there are a few other English Cremes in the study and they’re hoping to find out why there is such a disparity between the two types (having lived in three different European countries, I suspect environment and food are most likely). I feel it is my responsibility to ensure my pup dies from old age, not cancer so it is important to me to avoid even a breath of a link between an ingredient and cancer. Canola is one of those ingredients. This article: http://cancercompassalternateroute.com/diet/avoid-canola-oil/ will tell you more about the relationship between GMOs, rapeseed, canola oil and cancer. It’s not the only one, but it’s clear.

3. Garlic – One I didn’t mention, but there are enough conflicting views on it that I took time to look it up last year. Just like onions and chocolate, I don’t give my babies fresh garlic. I do however, add it to his diet as a garlic supplement because I believe that in the correct form and amount, it has benefits.

As to your most recent post regarding sources for raw food – I moved my answer over to the LBP topic at the raw forum since it’s more appropriate there. You can find it here: /forums/topic/feeding-raw-non-commercial-to-large-breed-puppies/page/2/#post-33978 It’s only one of seven pages of topics on feeding raw that you’ll find helpful.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 1 month ago by Sharon Buchanan.

[Sharon Buchanan]

Lablubber ~
In answer to your question from the Large and Giant Breed Nutrition forum about raw sourcing:

I decided a few weeks ago that the best diet for Mystery would be raw. Having made that decision, I didn’t think I should wait just because I didn’t have a local source for meat so I started pounding around the raw food thread and large breed raw thread. I asked questions about how to start, what to feed… I knew I wasn’t interested in freeze-dried or frozen patties – my boy is going to eat “manly” meat, where I could find a reliable, trustworthy online place to get meat and poultry and any other essential real food to get me through a search period. Based on recommendations here, I chose My Pet Carnivore (MPC).

Since I would have to wait for my first shipment, I headed to the grocery store, picked up a non-GMO, organic whole chicken as well as some meat with bones in them. I pulled out my German meat cleaver and a cutting board with grooves and discovered an expensive knife and cutting board does not make one a butcher. Next time I’m just going to give it to the meat department and tell them to hack it up for me.

Last week I found a farm that grass feeds, no GMOs, but they do feed grains in the three weeks prior to slaughter (I’m still checking to see if that is standard practice and if not, why it’s done and whether it effects the quality of the meat (other than the tripe) – more questions for my conference list). I may be able to get half of a cow in a few weeks at $2/lb. So, I have a 20 cu.ft. freezer arriving on Saturday and I continue to look at local resources including a dairy farm where they usually put down male calves, as well as chicken, goat and other natural farmed animals. Until then, I’m happy using MPC for all of my meat. I received my second shipment from them today, thank goodness – twice what I ordered the first time and I feel better about the balance of foods. MPC sells a number of balanced grinds – chicken, tripe/organs/etc. They also sell fine ground meats (I assume for small dogs), as well as coarse grind.

So, the answer to your question is – yes, you can buy from a reputable market. It’s cheaper in the long run since you don’t have to pay high shipping fees to ensure frozen mean doesn’t thaw before it arrives. (If you live near MPC they have pickup points.) The first local meat market I called not only couldn’t tell me whether the meat they sell is GMO free but they seemed irritated that I asked. Not going there! I’m also looking for a co-op of folks who are feeding raw but that is turning out to be more difficult to find than I expected.

As for supplements, I’ve been giving Mystery garlic (pest control), and a vitamin C complex (gum health, immune support, antioxidant), from Springtime from the day I brought him home, that hasn’t changed now that he’s on raw. He’s also getting two 825mg capsules of curcumen (variety of cancers, inflammation, among many others), sprinkled on his food and about a tablespoon of coconut oil which I started him on for a skin condition that cleared up in a matter of weeks and continue to give him for a myriad of benefits. I may be adding krill oil to his list of supplements as well.

In addition to all the help you’ll get here, if you go to mypetcarnivore.com, whether you intend to buy or not, they have some links to some great articles on feeding raw – right side, about half way down the homepage. If you sign up for Dogs Naturally Magazine, they email you a link to download their Raw Food Primer.

There are folks here who are much smarter about all of this than I am (which is why I’m here), and they have been really helpful during my transition to raw. Keep asking those questions!

[Lablubber]

Hi Again Crew

So can I also ask without sounding stupid… Why can’t a person who does the raw diet for their dogs, just buy their raw meat stuff through a reputable meat market and get the additives/suppliments through a speciality pet supply to add to their food… Is it just the cost difference? Or what is the reasoning behind it? Just curious???

The Lablubber

[DogFoodie]

Hi Jeff,

I would also rotate proteins for a wider variety of amino acids.

I believe that the one thing that James from Darwin’s encourages with regular rotational feeding of a variety of their products is adding a sardine to your dogs food every other day. Tinned sardines are fine and they’re the best source of Omega 3’s which are generally lacking in most diets.

You might also consider getting some of Darwin’s raw green tripe with your next order. Raw green tripe is full of amino acids, digestive enzymes and lots of nutrients. Darwin’s sells it in one pound packages and you can easily add it to a meal or serve as a meal.

[llynns]

Would foods with pseudo grains be ok to feed when trying to eliminate all grains from the diet? I have a dog who is in remission with thyroid carcinoma and I know raw would be the optimum….and, I’m researching my options. But, until then – I’m looking for some dry foods to add for rotation. I currently feed Horizon Legacy Salmon and have had great results. I was considering Nature’s Logic but, I noticed it contains millet. Any thoughts on other options and feeding pseudo grains?

[Jeff33]

I just wanted to say how much I appreciated all the valuable information that everyone has posted on this site. I am a new dog owner..my baby Tioga (English springer spaniel) turns one in a week. I found this site by researching the best type of dog foods available for him. I recently purchased some Orijen red because I thought that was the best food. I’ve since realized that I was wrong and I would like to feed him a raw diet because it’s the healthiest option. I don’t want to make my own raw meals. I’m going with Darwin’s. Here are my questions:

1. Can I feed him Darwin’s (chicken) everyday, without rotating? I thought rotating was only for canned and kibble due to the toxins.

2. Do I need to add anything else to his diet? I know I need to add some bones for his teeth and there are already enzymes in the meat so I don’t need to add that. What about probiotics?

I guess what I’m asking is what is the most basic diet, I was worried that just feeding him Darwin’s isn’t enough, I don’t want him to miss out on any necessary vitamins, minerals etc. due to my lack of knowledge.

Thanks for your help,
Jeff

[treizi]

So once again, I’m on the hunt for some new food. Koda’s an almost 10 year old Papillon with some random tummy issues that we haven’t been able to pin down. The vet has mentioned early pancreatitis possibilities as well as stomach acid issues. Symptoms are random and vary but basically will alter from diarrhea, stomach bloat and/or gurgling and bile spit up.
Since full blown pancreatitis isn’t a concern (yet), I’m not willing to go on a prescription diet since it might not even be an issue, but I’m hoping to find a good alternative that is just healthier all around. Koda has been eating the grain free duck from Lotus and while he seems to do OK on it, he doesn’t love it and tends to free feed.

I’m looking in to raw/wet but confused about the fat content conversions with raw in particular. Since he’s getting a bit older and has these stomach issues, I’m searching for something that is lower in fat. I’ve considered Honest Kitchen’s Preference and was thinking about adding raw but everything seems to be extremely high in fat content. The ones I’ve seen that are lower is Darwin’s and OC, both which I have access to in this area, but I’m not sure if these are even considered way to high for my older boy.

The alternative would be for us to boil Costco chicken and add that to the preference, but I do like the idea of having the ready made patties and being able to alternate between proteins. We often travel to our families place so not having to make a separate meal for the dog would be nice too.

Would I just need to contact the companies and ask what the true fat content is? I saw the mathematical conversion on another part of the site, but it seems like I need to know the moisture content of the food and I’m not sure where to find that.

[Sharon Buchanan]

Lablubber ~
No one can tell you definitively what to feed your puppy. We all have opinions based on our limited or extensive research and experience. When we brought our first Golden home, we fed puppy food – I don’t remember exactly what but it was easily available in the commissary so probably just junk. She required double-hip surgery before she was two.

When we decided to add another Golden – Mystery, I spent two months researching large breed nutrition, even before we decided on him. I read every article that HDM has conveniently posted on page one here (though I found them independent of this site), created my own table of foods, listing proteins, fats, calcium/phosphorus ratios/percentages, grains/no grains and so on. Based on that initial research I chose a food. I continued my research, signed up for newsletters, magazines, etc., and eventually chose a different food. As my research continued, I switched my cats to better foods as well. And I continue researching ways to feed my babies the best ways possible.

I appreciate so much all the advice I get from everyone in the DogFoodAdvisor forums, but the decision to purchase food A or food B is ultimately mine. Any suggestions from anyone are not taken blindly – I still go to the manufacturer’s website, look at their ingredients, lookup an ingredient I’m not familiar with, check to make sure there are no known controversies or issues with those ingredients (for example: the link between rosemary extract and seizures in humans, canola oil and cancer, synthetic vs. natural supplement sources), where they come from, how they’re processed, what temp they’re cooked at. All of this is taken into account before I purchase anything.

Now, I understand if you don’t have that kind of time. But you’re here for a reason – you want to feed your dog the best that you possibly can (which is why you’re considering raw!). So, find a just bit of time to look at some of the kibble recommendations that folks have made. I haven’t seen anyone say that Purina or Iams or Science Diet or Royal Canin or Blue are acceptable foods so the recommendations you do find here are all going to be good to excellent choices. I’ve stated my preference a number of times – Orijen, but that doesn’t make Earthborn or Wellness or Canine Caviar bad foods. Open up a few separate browser windows and do a side-by-side comparison to see what you think is best, check Chewy.com prices and you’ll make the right decision for you and your pup.

Now, if you’re wanting to find out more about raw, there’s plenty of information here – I’m already smarter about feeding Mystery raw for the time I’ve spent asking questions and reading responses. But I’ve also signed up for a weekend-long web conference being hosted by DogsNaturallyMagazine.com at the end of this month called Raw Roundup. Experts in the field will be presenting any number of topics on feeding raw and I have started a list of questions to ask in case they are not addressed during the sessions.

You can do this!

[Sharon Buchanan]

jewels~
Sorry for what seems like conflicting/confusing information – it shouldn’t be as I was addressing the percentage of calcium in the Wellness formulas, Duke is addressing the grams of calcium that percentage represents in the food.

If you haven’t opened the bag, PetCo will take it back – actually, they’ll take it back even if you have opened it. If you have a couple days worth of NV left, I can agree with Imnordrum regarding ordering from Chewy. They have excellent customer service and I’ve always received everything within two days as well.

PetCo should carry Innova LBP if you’re considering that, which has one of the lowest calcium/phosphorus ratios – closest to what Dr. Henry Baker recommends (see article #3 on HDM’s list on the first page). Their food is not the best, but certainly better than Purina or Iams, Science Diet…

My primary concern when I first brought Mystery home was calcium, since we already had a Golden that required double-hip surgery, so I put him on the Innova LBP. When he was about seven months old, I switched him to Orijen LBP which has a higher calcium, but only as an interim food while I researched raw, which he is now on. If I had not gone raw, he’d still be on Orijen LBP formula until he was two and then over to Orijen’s adult formulas. Orijen is grain-free, preservative-free and synthetic-free. You won’t find Orijen at PetCo. Only one of my five cats likes raw so they’re all on Orijen Cat and Kitten. (No, I don’t work for Orijen – it’s just the best I can find at a price I can afford.) I’ve had no dietary issues with either the cats or Mystery from any of the foods I’ve fed.

As for the pumpkin, if there are no medical reasons for your pup to have loose stools (I don’t know what they would be except for my experience with Sunset having eaten rabbit poop), a tablespoon of plain pumpkin will help. I never had to give more than two tablespoons, even when Sunset did clean up after the rabbits.

[Lablubber]

Rick Rankin

So can somebody make it simple for me and please tell me on the kibble end of it. If you were just starting out with a lab puppy and wanted to feed him the best kibble… What is the best overall choice. Orijen, Acana, Annamaet, Earthborn Holistic, Go! Fit & Free, Wellness or Dr Something or whatever for a 13 week old Lab puppy. I have read to oblivion on what is best. I have read every persons articles about what is recommended and I am even more confused now and becoming quite desperate watching my grow and hopefully do well.

As I said I tried to switch over to a good food and switched to Blue Lg. Breed Puppy and then only to find out that it too was too high in calcium after all the 20 days of transitioning to another food.

I do plan to slowly work over to some raw diet when I feel knowledgeable enough to do so…Mainly on his evening meals and I have tried some of the stuff PattyVaughn recommend for him as well as adding it to his kibble as toppers to his food to see how he reacted to it and so far so good. But for me and my lack of knowledge, I am just afraid that to jump off completely in the Raw scene because you also need to know that I take this dog with me 24/7. He goes everywhere I go and I also take him to work with me as well. Plus he is already training hard every day with all of his retriever work and obedience training. So then with the very limited knowledge that I have on this subject and the conditions that I am involved in, a totally raw diet would almost be impossible for me to do right now….Plus I am afraid I would not have enough knowledge to give him and provided everything that he needs as far as supplementations that go along with it for a lg. breed growing puppy. Especially when I want to be extra careful on the calcium end of it and then again saying that… I also don’t want to under nourish him in anyway whatsoever either.

So could I just plead for someone’s mercy and wisdom in this situation and please recommend the best kibble for a 13 week old lab puppy and then if you don’t mind, share with me where the best place is to order it…. Because as most all of you warned me….My local pet stores carry very little healthy lg. breed puppy food and all the local vets carry is Science Diet and Royal Canin or something like that and when you read their ingredients, none of them meet the requirements…

So then…Could someone please come to my rescue and help someone in a pinch here, because I am down to about the last 8 # of the food that I have and so now would be the time to transition to another one. I have learned tons from all of you guys but for me time is of the essence because I want this pup to have the best I can get for him with the limited amount of knowledge that I do have on board.

Thanks Lablubber

[doggiemama]

Our sighthound is coming off 3 weeks of what started as diarrhea and developed into Pancreatitis. He just turned 9 and has been fed foods like Canidae, raw, California Natural Grain Free all his life. Because he has a history of GI problems our vet was suggesting things like surgery to do some biopsies. Of course, surgery is a last resort, so we thought we were doing reasonably well, and then this last episode started and he came up with a Pancreatitis diagnosis. I really feel like a fish out of water now. The vet wants him on Hills ID. I am unhappy with that on so many levels (so is our furrkid). I am having a lot of difficulty understanding how a corn food with numerous other unknown ingredients, some chemicals and by-products, can be better than a food with only a few ingredients that are cleanly prepared and occur naturally in a canine’s natural “wild” environment. Pancreas issues are concerning, however, so I feel I need to defer to Vet judgment at this time. If anyone has knowledge of other good quality diets or diet guidelines for a pooch in our doggie’s boat, I sure would like to hear about it. Thanks.

[raylene5]

Took our 12 week old Miniature Schnauzer puppy to the vet for his first check up yesterday and, like with most vets I’ve ever met, I sure didn’t like her. I had called ahead of time and asked if the vets at this office are supportive of raw feeding and was assured that they are. Well, as soon as I told her I was feeding raw (Primal Pronto and ZiwiPeak) she gave me the spiel about contaminating the kids with his kisses and salmonella.

So Kamper has been eating grass since he got to our place. He was born in Arizona and had not seen grass at all before so at first I thought it was just curiousity. When I told the vet I was concerned about his eating the grass, she said it was probably because he was on a raw diet and that dogs can’t digest raw foods. That, like our bodies, they can better digest processed foods (she brought up how when we were cavemen we ate a lot of uncooked food and just sat around digesting it all day). Now, the good thing was that she did suggest very high quality kibble (Orijen, Acana, etc…) and not the typical vet-endorsed Science Diet or anything like that.

Anyway, it was a frustrating visit. I just wanted to know if anyone else’s vet had said these things about processed foods being easier to digest for their dogs.

[Shasta220]

Thanks for the thoughts guys, I guess I was relatively on the right track. I always make sure real meat is at least the first 2 ingredients in the kibble that I buy.

Patty is right, slvet2 – dogs are designed to handle the raw meats very well, even better than cooked meat. Always good to consider what they would eat in the wild… I don’t think a wild dog/wolf knows how to build a fire and roast his venison over it.

Where do you find that dogs should have 2 parts carbs for 1 part protein? I just always find myself thinking about a natural diet they’d have in the wild, and I cant think of anything they’d naturally eat that would give them carbs, except possibly grain remnants in a stomach or something… Not that I know much about great nutrition, as I’ve never studied out dog nutrition or had personal experience too much.

[Sue’s Zoo]

Well said Patty! I love my vet. But when it comes to feeding, they just seem to be following the typical path.

I started on this quest because EVERY single dog I’ve had in the last 30+ years died from cancer of a digestive organ. And they were on higher end kibble. There has to be a reason and diet is obviously the first consideration. Even though several of my dogs lived a ‘normal’ life span for their breed, some did not. And how do we know that normal wouldn’t be higher if all dogs ate raw and/or natural diets?

Since first discovering this forum when I wanted to find the best foods for my new puppy (months before he came to us), I have spent uncountable hours researching raw vs kibble and have found so much evidence supporting raw that I can’t imagine any other reason (except the one Patty mentions) for the AVMA to have a problem with it. Because even though I’m sure there are some feeding raw that aren’t fully balancing the diet and must choose lower grade food and less variety as they feed their beloved pets, I still cannot believe what they’re doing is more harmful than some comparably priced kibbles.

What has most impressed me is the obvious interest and care raw food proponents have shown in searching for the best they can provide for their pets AND their willingness to educate others. Most I’ve come into contact with are intelligent people who spend many, many hours researching and preparing the best food possible. I have yet to see one of them disparage another pet owner for feeding kibble etc. They have, instead, recommended the best possible kibble for their price point and offer suggestions for rotation etc to get as much benefit as possible.

Which reminds me to say thanks once again to all the wonderful people on this forum–Patty, HDM, RDM and many others–that spend time answering so many questions from others (me included) who are just learning about better nutrition for their dogs.

[theBCnut]

Dear slvet2

We are fully aware that the AVMA is perfectly fine with dogs eating kibble that is contaminated with salmonella and worse, but has taken a stand against raw, the natural diet of dogs. The kibble industry has deep pockets, and the AVMA is for sale.

[slvet2]

The American Veterinary Medical Association, does NOT recommend raw food diets for dogs. For more information go to the website: http://www.avma.org

[slvet2]

You are right, grains aren’t what dogs need in their diets. Grains are put into kibble dog and cat food as a filler, and the grain is used as part of the protein and carbohydrate analysis noted on every bag. Unfortunately, grains are difficult for dogs to digest (they don’t have four stomachs like a cow; multiple stomachs use bacterial fermentation to break down the rough grains). Dogs need easy to digest carbohydrates like potatoes and rice in a ratio of about 2 parts carbohydrate to one part protein in the food. This is easily accomplished by following simple recipes for homemade dog food-recommend a cookbook called HOW TO COOK FOR YOUR PET, c. 2009.

Raw food for dogs-not recommended by the American Veterinary Medical Association, and veterinarians. Possible food poisoning with Salmonella, E.Coli bacteria, and is poorly digested by dogs. Cooked foods are more digestible, and healthier.

[Shasta220]

Honestly, I get so confused these days. Grains are good, grains are horrible, certain grains are good, all are bad, etc etc.

What is the truth about grains in a kibble? Is an average GF food /always/ going to be better than a grain-inclusive food? Sure, I understand that many dogs have grain intolerances, but not every dog does. How are foods full of potatoes and peas really better than those with rice and barley?

I understand that grains are not a part of a dog’s natural diet, and they don’t need the extra carbs… But potatoes ain’t exactly health food either, eh?

Ultimately, I would love to do a raw home made diet for my dogs, but I won’t have the money, resources, or fridge-space for it until I move out. So for now, my dogs will have to stick to the kibble.

[ExplEngineer]

Thank you for your answers. Yes, I agree that both portion, and intake must be controlled in these larger [OK, Giant] breeds of dogs.

I am curious as to why there is an objection to “Hot Dogs” as the supplemental meat? And this is an honest inquiry, not a challenge or in any manner intended as being disrespectful. I am just a bit surprised that an all meat product of turkey, beef and chicken (I avoid the ones that contain pork, as it is my understanding that pork can be a trifle difficult for a dog to digest). When the steer is headed for the freezer, there is always ground beef (minimal fat content) or the type of chunks of beef that I use in chili or stew. When I come up on them in the supermarket I will pick up chicken breasts or thighs to add to their food, and of course the lads love cheese omelets for their weekend breakfast (they were given raw eggs in their prior home and seemed to thrive on them, but I hate to leave any raw egg product down on the floor for more than just a very few minutes while the cooked eggs remain edible for the better part of any hour. I do have to admit to throwing in an occasional strip of bacon as a treat, but it is not in any way included in their dietary schedule or as meeting any portion of their daily requirements for nutrition.

Actually, on occasion, I will even eat one or two of the hot dogs that I feed to them so I don’t see that there should be a qualitative or a food safety issue, but I assume that there must be something about them about which I am neither aware of, or I would not even consider feeding them to the lads. Trust me on that, both of my kids tell me that if for some reason they are involved in an accident, their last and most important wish is to come back reincarnated as my dog (& they are both >30, college educated, and in good career positions so they are neither deprived,nor underprivileged).

I am in my 47th year of owning and raising Mastiffs, but I still feel the need to seek out better ways of doing so. Now being semi-retired, they are with me virtually 24/7/365, and members of the family and the last thing that I would ever want to do is to raise them in a sub-optimal environment.

Tomorrow is annual inoculation day for my older one, and I shall be using a new, but highly recommended Veterinarian, and I will make a point of having this discussion with him as well, but as with physicians and psychologists, all health care professionals are equally skilled in all ancillary facets of animal health and as with human patients, a wise physician will consult with a dietician in constructing an omnibus treatment team, so I looking forward to integrating all available sources of information, and their recommendations, into our daily routine.

TIA to both of you for your input, and for adding resources to my knowledge base.

[RescueDaneMom]

Hi angele normand,

A homemade cooked diet is doable but you’re going to have to be really careful with the calcium/phosphorous. I’ve never cooked for a large breed puppy just adults so I don’t know how to go about making sure the calcium and phosphorous is at the right level. Hopefully Patty or someone else that is knowledgeable will chime in. Here is a website to get you started though: http://dogaware.com/diet/homemade.html This website has a wealth of info. I would go through it thoroughly. Also, the book “Real Food for Dogs and Cats” by Dr. Becker would be worth purchasing in my opinion. It explains everything about what canine diets need and how to make them. There are recipes for raw and cooked meals.

Good luck and good for you for wanting to do the best for your new furbaby!

[Sharon Buchanan]

Jazz ~
Sorry I didn’t get back to you yesterday. It’s been a madhouse around here with my oldest daughter moving out yesterday, me trying to finish some reading on raw diets so I can order some food before tomorrow and trying to find the right adoptable Golden for my husband.

I appreciate that RescueDaneMom jumped in to give you some very good advice. Pattyvaughn is another great resource as are any number of people more qualified than I.

Although some of the papers from the Great Dane study indicate that a 6 month old LBP could effectively absorb calcium, I have to agree with GDM that waiting at least until 10 months to switch to a higher calcium diet is better. I would however, still feed LBP kibble until full grown, up to 2 years old – you’ll know when your pup has reached that point.

I did switch Mystery to Orijen, Large Breed Puppy a month or so ago and if I hadn’t gone raw I’d have fed it until he was at least 16 months old. I wouldn’t have moved to Acana LBP because their MINIMUM calcium is 1.6%, Orijen is 1.2/1.5 min/max. Some of the Acana Regionals recipes have a similar low minimum calcium of 1.2% but they don’t say what their max is. Additionally, the protein content is lower than Orijen LBP. For comparison’s sake – Orijen LBP and both adult formulas contain 14 proteins and then starches follow. Acana Wild Prairie 2 proteins then a starch while their Grasslands is a bit better at 4. 80% of Orijen’s ingredients are protein, Acana is 60%. Of the other foods that RDM listed, I have opinions on all of them, but you can do further comparisons.

IF I were going to continue into adult kibble, I would absolutely have stayed with any variety of adult Orijen and would have felt very good about my decision. All five cats are eating Orijen with the youngest, a five month old Maine Coon stealing a few ounces of Mystery’s raw. I spent a lot of time researching pedigrees and genetics and food so that we could avoid, to every extent possible, a repeat of the $10,000 it cost us to have double-hip surgery on Sunset before she was two and three months of 24/7 in-clinic therapy to teach her how to walk again. I’m by no means an expert, but I can read and the more I do, the better I feel about my food choices, and why I switched to Orijen at 9 months and then raw so soon after at 10 months.

I wholly agree with RDM on turmeric. Mystery is enrolled in the Morris Foundation’s lifetime study on the relationship between cancer and Golden Retrievers and since we just lost Sunset to cancer, I feel a duty to do everything I can keep Mystery from getting cancer. I do purchase some supplements from Swanson and I’ve had Mystery on Springtime’s Longevity but I’m not certain I will continue that. I do agree with your decision to limit supplements since most kibble already contain a variety of supplements – I recently read an article on supplement overkill. If I can dig that article up I’ll let you know.

I also give Mystery raw eggs on occasion. It’s my understanding that the shell of the egg has a perfect balance of calcium to phosphorus. So if you’re still feeding a low calcium kibble and you want to add a bit more without switching to a higher calcium food, break an egg! I usually break it over a bowl, break up the shell a bit with my hands and pour it over his food. He gets the same eggs I eat – Born Free, Vegetarian without the added omegas or any other organic, free-range brown egg when Born Free is unavailable.

One more note – Susan Thixton had her site truthaboutpetfood.com hacked a couple years ago and so opened another site adding a “2” to the end. The problem finally resolved, she’s moved everything back over to truthaboutpetfood.com but is in the process of cleaning things up – hopefully that will be finished soon. Keep checking back, sign up for her newsletter or “Like” her on Facebook. She’s worth following.

Whew! 😉

[Dori]

Hi Coton’s Mom. I had an awful time with tear staining and rusty gunk coming out of all three of my dogs. Had all three to the vet who found nothing wrong with their eyes. The staining, etc. continued. I then took them to an animal opthamologist just to make sure my dogs vet hadn’t missed anything. Her diagnosis with the same. All healthy, no blockage, no bacteria. Both insisted that it had to be something they were ingesting (Food, Water?). My home has a whole house water filtration system. I followed someone’s suggestion (at this point I don’t remember who it was) and bought spring water using a reverse osmosis system. I then followed other suggestions of trying distilled water. I tried that. All to no avail. I was feeding my dogs a grain, rice, soy, corn, white potato, poultry free 5 star kibble. What turned everything around was when I was finally at my wits end and transitioned my dogs to commercial raw food. (Some day I’ll take on the task of following some of HDM’s recipes, too scared to do it wrong for now). That was approx. 3 months ago. All three dogs have stopped with the rusty colored eye debris. Of course there is some staining left (my dogs are all long haired breeds) but not near the eyes. Only on the hair that will need to grow out completely. If you’re a little concerned about a raw diet for your dogs as I was, once you get into it you realize how much healthier they have become and realize that WOW, the staining was the least of the problems on kibble. My 14 year old Maltese, Hannah, was listless, never played any more, just slept most of the time and I just attributed it to her age. Well low and behold, she is now running around, playing with toys, barking at anyone and anything that goes past our windows, playing with the other dogs, her coat is really really shinny and growing quickly (as are the other two dogs) and might I add their teeth are getting whiter and whiter. It’s truly miraculous and especially coming from a 65 year old mom of three precious dogs who was raised with the notion that you only fed kibble and if you found one that sort of worked ok you kept them on it, no and ifs or buts. So you see I’ve done a complete 180 on nutrition and health. I wouldn’t eat MacDonald’s day in day out (as tasty as they may be) everyday or I would be incredibly deficient in most all nutrient. My husband and I eat fairly well. Why I didn’t think that my dogs needed to eat that way is truly beyond me. Hope any of this helps.

[theBCnut]

Hi Lablubber
If you are serious about wanting to make your own dog food, check out the raw food section. Hound Dog Mom had blood hounds and the recipes she created on there are excellent and have the right amount of calcium for large breed puppies. After you look at that, if you decide you want something easier to get started, there are premixes that you just add meat and oil to, that you may want to check out. See Spot Live Longer Dinner Mix is one. The Honest Kitchen Preference is another. And Dr Harvey’s Veg to Bowl is a third. Finally, Dr Karen Becker’s book “Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats” and Steve Brown’s book “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” are great resources as is dogaware dot com.

[Molzy]

Thanks everyone! Tonight went better. I decided to let him eat it in his kennel, hoping he would take his time since he doesn’t have to worry about it being taken away. It worked! He still gulps large portions, but he crunches all the bones first so I think it’s ok. His poops looked fine today (last evening was his first raw) so we are continuing on!

Gonna have to price out some organ meat and additional muscle meat to eventually balance his diet out, but for now he’s still getting breakfast of honest kitchen so I’m not too worried yet.

[Sharon Buchanan]

BernerdAd ~
Just wanted to ditto Patty’s recommendation on pumpkin. It isn’t something I care to eat, but I keep a single can in my pantry just in case. When I have to open it up, another can goes on the grocery list.

Lablubber ~
I can’t remember if I read anywhere the age of your Lab. There’s a number of articles that HDM posted at the very beginning of this topic that address the correct percentage of calcium for large breed puppies. The figures vary somewhat, I chose to take the advice of Dr. Baker and keep Mystery’s calcium nearer to .80 percent. (My Mystery is an English Creme Golden Retriever – healthy adult weight will be about 85 pounds.)

I hadn’t found this forum when I was researching food so I ended up creating my own chart. I looked at calcium percentage as well as ingredients. I wasn’t going to feed junk (by-products, un-named meat meals, synthetic supplements, controversial ingredients – canola oil for one), no matter what the calcium percentage was. But I also wasn’t going to feed what I thought was the best kibble (no preservatives, no grains), if the calcium was higher than I believed it should be. I would have like to have been feeding Mystery Orijen or Acana but their calcium max for LBP is 1.5%. Though they say they try to keep it to the minimum 1%, they’d be okay feeding my dog nearly twice what he should’ve gotten. In the end, I chose Innova LBP kibble.

A simple explanation of the problem with too much calcium is, that a LBP less than six months old does not have the ability to process excess calcium properly. Too much calcium gets deposited on the outside of the bones which then causes bone disease. Again, this is the simple explanation – try reading all the articles HDM posted, some of them are a little more technical, but you’ll learn a lot from them. And don’t expect your vet to be familiar with the LBP study or any of the reports from that study. My vet said he wasn’t sure if he’d read any of them when I first mentioned diet concerns – and tried to make me feel like I couldn’t possibly know what I was talking about.

Back to the age of your Lab. Once a puppy has reached six months of age, he is able to process calcium better but even afterward, calcium still needs to be lower than what a small or medium size puppy can handle. I moved Mystery to Orijen LBP kibble just last month when he was 9 months old. To address your concern regarding transitioning foods, when Mystery’s Innova got down to the last pound, I added a pound of Orjen to it. When that was gone a few days later, it was all Orijen.

As far as expense goes, I considered Innova to be an average priced kibble – compared to Purina, Iams, Science Diet, or any other junk food. Orijen, on the other hand is going to cost more but is worth it – as far as kibble goes. Innova did have a recall last year at the time that I was feeding it to Mystery. I was forced to switch him over to Wellness – the next lowest calcium percentage, but I cringed at every meal because chicken meal is their third ingredient rather than first, and they use Sodium Selenite instead of Selenium Yeast. It looks like Innova has changed their LBP recipe – I don’t know what I’d do now if my only option to feed was kibble to a LBP.

BTW, when Innova had their recall, I had no choice but to switch Mystery to Wellness – without any transition. And my cats have never needed transitioning as I’ve upgraded their food. Obviously, common sense must rule if you see a problem cropping up because of the change.

I have to agree with Patty on Blue. In addition to their minimum calcium percentage being too high, they have three grains in their top five ingredients, they add chicken FLAVOR (why do they need flavoring?), sodium selenite and caramel which is used to make you, the purchaser feel good about the color of their garbage, as if your dog thinks caramel colored food tastes better than beige food. I also don’t like seeing oil of rosemary so high on their ingredient list since we had a Golden that had seizures (if your dog doesn’t have seizures rosemary oil/extract might not be a problem).

In retrospect, I should have started feeding Mystery raw when we first brought him home at 10 weeks instead of waiting until now when he is 10 months old. You will absolutely learn much here at dogfoodadvisor and especially in the forums. I would also suggest, if you have to continue feeding kibble, go to truthaboutpetfood.com and sign up for her free newsletter. She’s also on Facebook if you prefer. I will say though, that I credit Susan Thixton (truthaboutpetfood), with my decision to pursue a raw diet. Of course, it was here at the forums that I received the most encouragement to switch.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 1 month ago by Sharon Buchanan.

[Shasta220]

But this is great you’re doing raw! Like I say, I hope you can get a good routine going for your dogs. If I ever get the resources, money, and space to keep a freezer-ful of raw meat, I’m definitely switching my dogs to raw. I’ve seen incredible results from a properly balanced raw diet… I have even read of a Great Dane (lifespan is usually around 9-12yrs) who was fed raw his whole life, and lived all the way to 16y.o. and healthy to the end!

[Shasta220]

I completely feel you about being scared he might get injured. My dog, Otto, was quite the gulper. When he was only about 3mo old, he got a hold of a raw chicken bone (it was a leg bone, he had found the cat’s dinner…). I saw him take it, I ran over to him and told him to leave it (yup, this was before he knew the command “leave it”), but it was too late, he had broken it into 2 pieces then swallowed them. I thought for sure he wouldn’t make it through the night, but we kept an eye on him and he was completely fine.

The above suggestions to help with gulping are great. My current gulper, Loki, will get any of his raw meat frozen. He still eats it very fast, but at least he breaks it into kibble-sized pieces, as he doesn’t like swallowing large frozen things… Brrrrr!

I’ve never done a real raw diet with my dogs, I’ve only read the books and web pages. I hope you can get a good routine going with your guy, and I’m sure he’ll remember to chew soon 😉

[USA]

Hi Molzy

There will always be a risk in feeding a dog raw meaty bones. No one can guarantee you that a bone will never cause harm to your dog. Raw feeders want to feed their dog a similar diet to what wolves eat in the wild, believing it is the most natural and species appropriate.

One thing that I think is often overlooked is that when wolves consume bones they also consume the fur of the animal they are eating. The bone usually comes out the other end of the wolf wrapped in fur. The fur protects the inside of the wolf from being damaged as the bone makes its way through its digestive system.

For the gulping you could try feeding a large piece of frozen meat. The piece should be bigger than your dog’s head. This makes it almost impossible for your dog to just gulp down. Being frozen also makes it difficult to just swallow and could encourage your dog to chew. As long as you are able to take the piece away from your dog before it becomes small enough to swallow or when your dog has eaten enough, a frozen piece of meat larger than your dog’s head is an option.

Another option is raw boneless meat. This method has no danger of your dog being injured from bones. In this method you would have to add a calcium supplement to replace the calcium in the bones.

Reading a book like See Spot Live Longer (more geared to the beginner) or Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet (a little more advanced) both by Steve Brown will help you in preparing nutritionally balanced home prepared raw or cooked meals for your dogs.

I am not a fan of using a metal vice grips or a metal tube to stop your dog from gulping. I am worried that your dog might injure himself by chomping down on them or by trying to swallow the vice grips.

Good Luck with Quincy and LoJack!!!!

[Molzy]

Well, I gave Quincy his first meal of raw tonight, a chicken leg quarter (on sale for 59 cents a pound this week)! I tried to hold onto it to teach him to CHEW his food, but was only partially successful. I am now freaking out because I just let my baby eat a chicken bone! Trying to ease myself by watching YouTube videos of raw fed dogs, but all the videos appear to be chewing more than he did. Any advice? Is he still a candidate for feeding raw?

At this point I’m planning on keeping him on honest kitchen for breakfast, and raw for dinner while I learn more and become more comfortable with balancing the diet (I know I can’t do chicken quarters forever!). But I need a little reassurance that my beloved dog isn’t going to bleed to death tonight because I let him eat bone!

I’m watching him like a hawk for any signs of discomfort (kind of difficult since he has digestive issues anyways), but so far he’s just running between me and the kitchen looking for more chicken and playing with his toys…

[Lablubber]

Hi KMS

Thank you once again for your reply on the vaccinations and yes i know this is a nutrition forum for large breed dogs and I have most of the tinme been talking about it buit it just came to mind while I was typing so I asked anyway, since all of your longtimers seem so well versed and have educated yourself in the finer points of truly raising your dog right… So thank you for your reply…. It is very much appreciated…

Then Patty, thank you also for your reply…. I know that written word is the poorest form of communication there is and you grossly misunderstood my intentions in my words because if you have read my other posts, I happen to think all of you are very informative and also very wise in your area of expertise. I actually switched off of the dog food my breeder had my pup on because of a post I think Hound Dog Mom made and I don’t know where in the world off of here that I got the idea to use Blue but it has made a world of difference in his coat, his stool conformity and he has yet to have the first issue with the Chicken and Rice Lg. Breed Puppy Food.

As far as the raw diet goes, I have no issue with anyone using it and believe me had I not seen first hand several issues myself with it, then I assure you for my pup, I would doing whatever it takes to have him on it and besides even the people I knew that had the issue may have not used the raw diet in the prop[er way or had the strict regime of ingredients like you guys do.

Believe me if I didn’t agree with anything you sauid or thought that you didn’t know what you were talking about….i sure would not have changed my whole way of thinking and I would still be using milk replacer in my puppy chow and facing hip or elbow issues down the road.

I came here to be educated by people like you and hound dog mom and all of the year of wisdom that is formed and madeup by in this forum. And then boom you hit me with another shot in your last reply and told me Blue had too much calcium as well and I just finished a 20 day transition over to it for my dog.

I swear someone on here told me it was one of the top 25 foods to feed a large breed puppy. So excuse me if I upset you by using the poorest form of communication there is because there was nothing intended wrongly for any of you. Because I am disciple of all of you and intend to remain so if you guys don’t shun me out for poor wording.

So with that said… Can I just plainly, country boy ask you what you would feed a labrador retriever pup that means the world to you if you don’t feel comfortable with going the raw way just yet?

One other thing I would also like to ask about supplimentation is with all of the stomach cancer issue that so many older dogs are facing… Has any of you ever added Tumeric or Curcumin to your dogs diet because I can tell you for a fact and even MD Anderson Hospital finally admitted that they have found that it actually kills cancer cells and then acts as an outright cancer fighting addition to your diet… My boss had Multiple Myeloma (Bone Cancer) and he was in stage 4 when they found it and then through nutritional changes and lots of prayer, he is a documented walking miracle. Needless to say his whole staff now takes tumeric/curcumin everyday… And my pup get a 1/2 capsule everyday as well, until I find out it is bad thing for him which I don’t think I will from what I have read. In fact I am going to write Texas A&M Vet. School to make sure that it will not and if not what dosage I could give him to be a correct amount for his system. I personally think it will make him cancer immune in his old age. I have had skin cancers on my arm dissolve and dissappear after just a few month of taking 3 capsules a day of it every day.

So I am sorry if I ruffled anyone up because I truly did not mean to do so because I respect and enjoy reading every single thing you guys write. I read it every day and every night religiously. I just thought it was kindly strange that everyone was replying to all the posts done after mine and not a thing toward mine at all… You know what assuming does but anything I aksed is asked geniunnely because I don’t know and really want someone more educated and wise to step up and help me out… This puppy means the world to me and so I only want the best for him even if I have to swallow a lot of stuff that I didn’t know I was doing wrong on.

So thanks for your reply and I look forward tolearning much more from all of you on this forum.

The Lablubber

So thank you for all of your help and wisdom and please continue what you are doing for all of us newbies to the real world of pet nutrition.

[Shasta220]

Bones do an amazing job, yes, but I will always brush my dogs’ teeth. Cassy had chews/bones her whole life, but I didn’t brush her teeth enough and she needed one pulled. Then our cat is on the raw diet, so she consumes whole bones daily, and she got an infected tooth at age 5.

Certainly though, if brushing is difficult to do, then bones make a close second for good dental care 🙂

[kms]

PattyVaughn –

Thanks for the feedback! If Augie has consistently good stool for a month, I’m hoping that’s when I can start to get him on a better diet. The vet wanted me to go 10 weeks – she even suggested keeping him on RC for the rest of his life – which left me kinda speechless.

So now I’m trying to figure out what next. Elimination diet or Limited Ingredient food? If elimination diet, what do I add first? How much? and for how long? I’m assuming 1st thing to add should be a protein. Should it be one he never had – or can I start with chicken? (foods he had so far contained chicken, salmon, turkey, rabbit – but we’re not sure if any of those were truly a problem since he also had worms, bacteria and several doses of antibiotics). Would I give it just once (with 1 meal) and wait a few days to see what happens – or give it with every meal for several days and then see? He’s 50 lbs, 8 mo, male, intact, Weim.

Sharon –

Thank you for posting the info about the the shampoo – this is the first time I heard that. I used Allergroom by Virbac for many years on our Lab (who we lost to cancer @ 9 yo) and have been using it on our Weim pup also. So, needless to say, we’re now looking for another shampoo. Maybe Mercola Organic? Pricey, but I trust their products.

Thanks so much to everyone. This site has helped me be a much better mom. Hoping to eventually do a rotation diet and maybe even feed raw down the road. Although, the Internal Medicine specialist who diagnosed Augie with IBD said that she doesn’t think a “rotation diet” is going to be possible. Hope that’s not true.

[Sue’s Zoo]

Sharon,

Dr. Frick had good general information but she doesn’t have a dog and isn’t doing it so not much in the way of practical advice. She did add a few supplements because one of my pups, Loki, has pulmonary stenosis so she gave some things to help his heart. She is looking over the actual meal plans and going to provide recommendations. She thought it all looked very good (I brought in a few of HDM’s meal plans from early in the Feeding Raw topic. She did say that it would be better to customize the herb and fruit supplements based on what each dog needs. And we discussed ways to do that. I’m going to take all the actual ones I use in and go over them with her next week.

I signed up for the Dogs Naturally conference. Thanks so much for providing that info. I’m looking forward to it and wish it was sooner! Not sure where you live. I placed my first order thru MyPetCarnivore.com. They make deliveries to various areas once a month, plus you can get orders delivered UPS but only when desperate as shipping for that type of delivery is expensive. I also found another place called rawpaws.org. They also run deliveries to several areas but I think both of these are primarily midwest US. Another frequently mentioned on this site is hare-today.com I haven’t looked into their shipping fees etc. I know they do ship fedex and UPS but no idea what it costs. I’ve also been able to find chicken backs and gizzards at Whole Foods; gizzards, liver, turkey necks at a local grocery store.

I will go through more of my info from Dr. Frick once I’ve had some time to digest and after we go over some specific diets etc next week.