[Daisy D]

Hi RebeccaRose, and Susan, thank you both for sharing your experiences. I came across this post while doing my own research into what is happening with my own dog. My almost-7-year-old female French Bulldog has always been what I would describe as a sicky dog. She has always regurgitated water if she drinks too fast, too much – and would often regurgitate food too.

I tried her on a RAW diet which didn’t suit her, she would regurgitate after every meal. We settled on Ziwipeak lamb which suited her well for years. November last year her vomiting and regurgitating increased to daily episodes, along with some mild exercise intolerance, and also increased coughing.

She’s always had a wet cough on and off since I got her aged 1. Vets did all sorts of tests and couldn’t find out what it was from, it lead to her having soft palette surgery and her tonsils out, she’s also been on various antihistamines and more recently appoquel for allergies, assuming it’s from allergies.

I’m wondering if she’s actually had this GERD problem the whole time. My vets suspected GERD last November as Roxy’s had vomited bile unexpectedly (and through her nose) on three occasions in the morning, a few weeks apart. They put her on Zantac and metronidazole but she unfortunately got an eye ulcer NYE which caused her lots of pain and stress, (she’s highly vet phobic).

IT seemed like nothing was working, she would be lethargic, and clearly feeling sick every day – often running about desperately wanting to eat grass. Squeely sounding stomach, not eating etc. Sometimes would vomit, but mostly the hard gulping coughing and gagging – when it was really bad she would shake for around 6 hours at a time.

The vet did an abdominal ultra sound, everything was clear apart from slightly enlarged spleen (they say common with the sedatives). She was also clear for a fecal test.

We haven’t done blood tests as my vet thinks they would be a waste of money – should we consider this? Everything is telling me she will need the endoscopy and biopsies, but am so worried to put her under general anesthetic being a brachycephalic breed and vet phobic to the point it makes her ill.

Two weeks ago the vet prescribed Omeprazole and she was doing great on it, got her appetite back and was waggy again. They kept her on the metronidazole too while her eye ulcer was healing so as not to change too much as once. But this finished on Friday. On Sunday she relapsed and spent the whole day and night shaking, feeling awful.

She picked up the next day and was back to her ‘almost’ usual self, but then today she woke up and I knew she was going to be ill – she’s been shaking and panting since this morning, but is just sleeping quietly now.

MY vet is great, but only works three half days a week at the practice, meaning I sometimes have to wait days to get her on the phone. Today I spoke over the phone to a difference vet who would like to put her back on the metronidazole as it’s the only thing that’s changed since she was doing OK. I pick it up later. Roxy has always been a really anxious dog, and her separation anxiety has got worse since she’s been sick – and i’m sure when she’s been under stress it’s making the nausea worse too.

I’m very aware that both metronidazole and omeprazole are not great long-term options, should I be pushing for a referral for the endoscopy?

[Pitlove]

Hi A K-

You at least need to worry about it until a year old. Some choose to air on the side of caution and feed a large breed puppy formula until 18 months of age. For giant breeds you would feed them as a puppy longer.

You could feed Orijen Large Puppy until a year (or longer if you’d like) and then move to any of the other formulas in Orijen since they are all life stages (including the Adult Dog formula). It should be fairly easy switching within the same brand of food.

[E W]

I hope that by now your toy breed is doing a lot better. Ever hear of liver shunt???? Just wondering if your vet has mentioned it yet but it was once thought to affect mostly toys breeds but now has been found in several breeds large and small. These dogs can be managed through diet or sometimes surgery but it’s no picnic. I don’t want you to panic….but more dog lovers should be aware of this condition. There is a lot of good info available about it now. I am not diagnosing your dog just if this were my dog and if this illness has continued all this time I would want an answer and a solution before you end up spending thousands at the vet because it adds up quickly. I currently have a pug that has a liver shunt she had an ameroid constrictor placed in Nov of 2014 we are still struggling with her and they suspect a collateral shunt has developed so my picnic continues but she is such a sweet soul that we continue to push on to better be able to help her feel as good as possible and live a full life.

[A K]

Thanks again pitlover and crazy4cats (and everyone).

She is a little over 10 months old. How long should I be concered about the level of Calcium and Phosphorous in her food?

If I went with a large breed puppy formula like Orijen, when would you suggest switching her to a adult food?

Would you guys/gals suggest going with Orijen Large Breed Puppy formula for a few months, then switching her food again to something like Orijen Regional Red?

Or would you suggest finding a food that will work more long term without the need to switch again after a few months?

Thanks so much for all the help!

[Pitlove]

Hi Linda- I can’t say for sure if that PureVita Formula is correctly formulated for a large breed puppy. NutriSource does however have a great large breed puppy formula that is. Remember, it doesn’t have to be a 5 star food, but it does have to have restricted calcium so your pup grows properly!

[Linda H]

I just got a 6 month puppy large breed and wondered if nutrisource purevita venison and red lentils is a top quality brand and if my puppy needs additional supplement or a different brand.

[Susan]

Hi, try “California Natural” limited ingredients, Lamb & Rice it has only 4 ingredients, there’s small breed & large breed… http://www.californianaturalpet.com/products
Why your dog is doing well for 1-2 weeks then reacting it takes 1 day to 6 weeks to show food sensitivities/intolerances, this is what confused me… Patch would do really well the first month then he’d start reacting to the kibble, then I started to feed a kibble that’s is just Fish & Rice no peas, no chick peas, no potatoes, no lentils, just fish & rice….. also get a good dog probiotic to build up the immune system & always make sure you read what the omega 3 & 6 % is in the kibble…. I’ve read some kibbles are higher in omega 6 & low in omega 3 & dogs making dogs itch & scratch & have dry skin….. the California Natural shows all the Nutrient Analysis… also when he comes back inside, wipe him down, I use “Huggie Baby Wipes” Aloe & Cucumber a new wipe for each section of the body… sardines in spring water are excellent to give as a treat..

[C4D]

Hi Jim G,

It sounds like the food is not working for your dog. You’re breeder probably recommended Life’s Abundance because she get’s a percentage of sales. It’s sad, but true.

If her stools are normal on plain cooked chicken and rice, I would try another grain free food and slowly intoduce it to her. If that one doesn’t work, try another until you are getting the perfect stools again. Look through this forum for large breed puppy food. Since she’s a Lab, you need to feed her a Large Breed Puppy food so it has the correct calcium/phosphorus ratio.

[C4D]

Hi September D,

I’ve owned a lot of dogs over the years. I’ve never fed a senior dog food to them. Senior dog food is really just a marketing ploy. My large breed dogs live well over their expiration date. The most important thing is to watch that they don’t gain too much weight, get exercise on a daily basis, and address any health issues they might have as they age or due to injuries they have sustained. I also get yearly checkups and do blood panels on a regular basis. That let’s you know if there are any issues that might need addressing. My vet once said to walk my dogs for as long as they could walk. I’ve always done that. I’m not saying this is a miracle cure, but dogs need exercise and they need a job. That’s their job and they love it. I have a senior right now, 11 yo Lab along with other older adult dogs, but if you didn’t know her age, you wouldn’t think she was that old. She has bad knees too, but she walks briskly almost 2 miles daily and runs the yard after everything she sees. She does get supplements (fish oil, joint care) and I am very careful about her diet to keep her lean. I also feed her a combination of kibble, canned and fresh/raw food daily. So, I’ll get off my soap box now. Best of luck with your pup!

[Jenn H]

Wendyz I had replied this morning, but am just noticing that I must not have hit “submit”. Therefore I apologize for the delay.

I will say that after about 20 GSDs in 35+ yrs only 1 of them had pano. That was when I was a teenager. Therefore I had no control on what the dogs were fed. I just fed them according to parents’ instruction. At that time Pedigree, Purina, Blue Seal, etc were considered great food. Canned was to be used very rarely and only to give pills or extra during very cold times.
That dog grew very big very quickly. At 2 he was heading toward 100#s. Since he died suddenly at 2.5 from torsion we’ll never know what he would’ve topped out at.

With the exception of a couple of dogs I have adopted as adults, none of the 20ish dogs I’ve had have gotten hip/elbow dysplasia, OCD, arthritis, etc. With the proper diet, exercise & supplements the arthritic dogs became noticeably better. (Supplements are a whole other conversation.)

I worry about my pup because I have no idea what his father is like. His mother was a “midnight rescue”. She is 90+ lbs. His confirmation isn’t ideal. Angulated hips, roach back. Since switching him tho he has developed more muscle tone which I think has gotten him to stop walking on his hocks and has a better coat. He is also more satisfied after meals despite being fed much less amt.

It appears that quality of the proteins is more important than the quantity. Stay away from plant based. Go for meats/fish/eggs as a source. Higher biological value. Protein is important to build muscle.

You also want to control the rate of growth. GSDs can grow until they’re 3 y/o. My boy has steadily gained 2 #s/wk his whole life. Once in a while he doesn’t gain anything, but will gain 3#s the next wk.

It’s perfectly fine to give joint supplements at 6 months. Right now he gets 1.5 tabs Cosequin DS (the kind WITHOUT vitamins & minerals).

Make sure that if fish is in the food it is NOT preserved by the supplier or manufacturer with Ethoxyquin. Solid Gold & their suppliers do not use that.

If you want to have more control over proteins The Honest Kitchen may be a good choice. Even if you only feed 1 meal/day or a few meala/wk. When I contacted them regarding the puppy they suggested this:
4-6 mon Thrive
After 6 months transition/rotate with Embark, Love, Revel, Brave (that’s a LID of fish).
They make human grade dehydrated base mixes. You add the protein yourself. They include the suggested amts, but really it’s up to you.

I like to keep my puppies on the leaner side while they grow. A roly poly puppy is cute, but not ideal. I find 22-25% protein to be a good amt. But I care more about what type and the calcium.

Other LBP foods on my short list are:
*Orijen LBP/Acana
*Fromm LBP Gold although I’m hesitant to try it since a lot of people are complaining their dogs are getting sick from their gold line.
*Solid Gold Hundchen Flocken Lamb & Rice. I used it when I couldn’t find Wolf Cub

Just an aside…I appreciate that you asked for my advice and am very happy to help. I am not a vet or a nutritionist. All I have is experience. Dogfoodie, Pitlove, Houndmom (I’m pretty sure that’s her name) are about the only 3 people who seem to be as conscientious as I and have offered some valuable & helpful advice. They are very good sources to reach out to also. I know there are some significant differences between GSDs and other large breeds, but there’s more similarities when it come to prevention of musculoskeleton problems.

Another aside is that I think I may switch my Lab mix to Solid Gold Barking at the Moon. I can let you know how that goes.

Good luck with the pup. I’m sure he’ll be just fine. I doubt that bout of pano will be a problem. You understand that calcium should not exceed 1.5% and the calcium/ phosphorus ratio should be around 1:1-2:1.

If I think of anything I may have forgotten I’ll let you know.

[LexiDog]

Richard – with a large breed puppy you will need to make sure that the calcium : phosphorous ratios are appropriate.

Check out this link: /forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/

I understand where you are coming from with not wanting to feed poultry to a dog that guards chickens, but I don’t think that feeding him a chicken based food will make him want to go eat the live chickens he is guarding.

I think that Wellness CORE Puppy would be a good food – but that has chicken and turkey.

[Pitlove]

Hi Wendeyzee- I won’t speak for DogFoodie, but no I’m not a veterinarian or a veterinary nutritionist. That is why I personally provided you with links to research conducted by those types of professionals in the field of nutrition that have studied growth in large breed puppies. I am aware that German Shepherd Dog’s are prone to the development of Pano (the links also support that). No where in my post or in my links I provided did it say otherwise. What was said in those research articles was that Pano is idiopathic, therefore there is no way to know that feeding your puppy a high protein diet was the cause of it. This should actually offer some piece of mind.

Over nutrition does not mean feeding high protein- it is in reference to caloric intake. This is why DogFoodie (and I) mentioned keeping the dog lean and at an ideal weight during the critical growth period (though that can not even guarentee your dog will not develop pano). A puppy that is even slightly (by just a mere few pounds) overweight is at a much higher chance of developing any one of the numerous DOD’s.

No one here critized your pet parenting or assumed you had not spent any time researching the breed. You’ve misconstrued that in your own mind. We simply offered you information that you may have missed while researching.

I’m sorry you found this information offensive. Best of luck with your pup

• This reply was modified 10 years, 3 months ago by Pitlove.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 3 months ago by Pitlove.

[Pitlove]

Wendeyzee-

Here is a good overview of proper large breed puppy nutrition. This applies to all breeds.

https://www.msu.edu/~silvar/hips.htm

Here’s a link discussing pano that mentions GSD’s

http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2526&context=iowastate_veterinarian

“The etiology(cause) is unknown, but the disease can be transmitted by injecting into the marrow cavity of susceptible dogs a bacteria free and cell-free Seitz filtrate from the bone marrow of diseased dog”

There was another short blurb I found about Pano that supported the same statment that the cause is unknown. Protein has been cleared (meaning it is not) as the cause of all other orthopedic diseases. While we can’t say for sure it is not the cause of Pano, we can’t say for sure that it is either. More focus should be put on limiting excessive calcium and overnutrition.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 3 months ago by Pitlove.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 3 months ago by Pitlove.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 3 months ago by Pitlove.

[wendeyzee]

Thanks Jenn,
I’ve never used Solid Gold or Wysong foods, i’ll check them out. I do know about the calcium thing with large breeds and was really careful about that, but something i had to learn the hard way is about protein levels in growing GSDs and some other breed as well, is they are prone to Panosteitis from to high protein. I was listening to everyone all over these boards saying high protein is good for growing puppies well not necessarily for GSDs. My Pup Theo at about 10 mos developed limping and sometimes it would shift around, I couldn’t get a grip on what the heck was happening to him, i was freaking out I thought it was hips, but no it was Pano! I think we are past that now but I’m gun shy about protein levels. I have Both dogs on fish, I’ve used Pure Vita salmon, Natures Select (wonderful food) but got tired of ordering off the website, then to Fromm which has a TON of carbs, then tried Zignature trout & salmon they liked it but both Zig. & Fromm have salt (why?) so now back to Pure Vita. I’ve trialed a few others like Great Life and Victor but really watching protein at least a while longer. I’m using alot of fish because they are both being treated for allergies and my vet dermatologist suggested it even though we don’t seem to have food allergies. I have looked at the editors choice lists for months now reading ingredient panels, guaranteed analysis, manufacturing facility and sourced ingredients as much as we can possibly know. Ugh its so hard!

[Jenn H]

Wendy I’d be happy to share. Right now I’m on break at work, but when I get home I’ll have my lists.
Until then at the moment I’m feeding my 7 month old GSD 4-4.25 cups Solid Gold Wolf Cub bison. That’s split into 3 meals. He’s about 70 lbs.
He’s done really well with it. His coat looks good and he’s really been building muscle since switching him completely 1 month ago. As a result of the muscle tone I’ve noticed his confirmation improving.
My 7 y/o GSD has been having GI issues since having to be on 2 courses of antibiotics for Lyme and 2 other antibiotics for other issues and a bout with pancreatitis. For her right now I’m giving 2 meals of 1/2 can i/d and 1/2 cup Wysong Anergen. I’m about to switch the i/d to Anergen cans. She’s 67 lbs right now. It’s winter. Nomally she is much more active and eats more but her normal weight is 60-63 lbs.
I have a 10 y/o Lab/Pit mix (more Lab) that’s about the same weight as my 7 y/o. She gets Wysong adult 2 times/day. 3/4 cups. She has nothing but muscle. No fatty lumps or anything! Best looking Lab/Lab mix I have ever seen at her age.
They are all healthy & energetic (even my sick girl).
Once my pup requires more kibble I’ll probably sub it/add Solid Gold cans. I’ll have to figure out the amts on that first.
Before this food he was getting about 61/2 cups Wellness Core Grain-free Puppy. He did pretty good w/ it, but I was going thru so much food. And his coat & muscle tone wasn’t like it is now.
The reason I fed that and not the Wellness large breed puppy was because it had 1.5% calcium. The lbp has more than that surprisingly.
Solid Gold Wolf Cub (bison) has 1.3% max.
All of them also get 2 Tbsp pure canned pumpkin (Libby’s brand from the market.)
Every once in a while I give them goat milk and/or cooked & cooled whole groats oats just to fill them up a little or put a couple extra pounds on for cold weather.

So it goes like this:
Puppy: 1.25 cups Solid Gold am & pm
1 cup middle of day
2 Tbsp pumpkin in 1 of the meals.
Lab mix: 3/4 cups Wysong Adult am & pm
2 Tbsp pumpkin

I’ll get back to you later with the other foods I’ve tried/like.

[crazy4cats]

Hi AK-
While it probably isn’t crucial at this point to keep the calcium percentage that low due to the fact that your pup is 10 months old and has done a lot of her growing already, but it sure wouldn’t hurt just to be safe.
The Nature’s Variety Instinct Raw Boost Formula that you originally wanted to use should be appropriate if you want to give it a go. Also, Fromm Gold Lg Br Puppy, Orijen Lg Br Puppy, Wellness Core, Horizon Complete Lg Br Pup and Nutrisource Lg Br Pup are also some ideas to check out.
My large breed pups are now 4 1/2 years old. LOL! I feed them mostly 4 star foods and add canned or fresh meal mixers to their meals and they are doing great! Just remember, you don’t have to stick with one food forever. It doesn’t have to be a life long decision. If it doesn’t work, try something else! Best of luck.

[crazy4cats]

NOW large breed kibble made by Petcurean is big.

[Pitlove]

Check out NutriSource. Both their Large Breed formulas have really big kibbles.

[crazy4cats]

Hi AK-
Here is an article that is found on the review side of this website. It explains how it is best to keep calcium under a certain percentage to help prevent joint problems such as, hip and elbow dysplasia: /best-dog-foods/best-large-breed-puppy-food/
There is a calculator on the link helping you decipher whether a food is appropriate or not. Also states, that while not as precise, you can generally look for a food that has .9% to 1.35% calcium. I would be more concerned about that percentage than how many stars a food has at this stage of the puppies life. At least for a few more months until she is fully grown.
Pitlove and Frank have given you a few good options. Good luck with your choice. I know it is confusing, but you are on the right track!

[Frank K]

I am extremely happy with Wellness Core. I have been feeding the puppy formula to my 2 American Pit Bull Terriers since aged 12 and 16 weeks through their current age of 11 months. While it is not an inexpensive brand, it is cost effective since it is not primarily a bunch of grain products and they do not require a whole bunch. Their stools are firm and small, and their physical condition is excellent….sleek coats, lean body weight, excellent energy level. I actually took all that for granted–until FedEx was unable to navigate our mile long driveway to deliver their regular shipment and I had to purchase a stand-in for a few days. Their droppings at least quadrupled in size and they never seemed to feel satiated after their meal! I plan to continue with the Wellness Core Puppy for the next 6-12 months and will then transition to the Adult version. (They are very large–My male pup is 118 lean pounds and the female 85 so they are actually still physically growing.) As a former breeder, exhibitor, and commercial kennel operator, I have feed a LOT of different brands over the years. The consistency of the Wellness Core quality SO FAR has been exceptional in comparison to many top-ranked competitive brands. I would not hesitate to begin a trial with your dog’s appropriate version from their company.

[Pitlove]

Hi Rachel-

Couple things here that could help save money for the moment. Firstly, food is usually the easiest thing to start with (and least expensive for the most part). I find that NutriSource is an excellent food for dogs who have loose stool/digestive issues. And of course, you would want to feed their Large Breed Puppy formula since your boy might be borderlining a giant breed but most certainly is already a large breed and needs a strict diet to reduce the risk of orthopedic disorders.

Secondly, if you’d like to forgo the neuter and do the testing for other parasites I think that would be a fine choice. It’s recommended not to neuter large breeds until they have fully grown so that their growth plates have a chance to fully close and he will not be fully grown at only 10 months old. This also helps reduce the risk of orthopedic disorders. Also, this could allow you to invest more in figuring out the cause of his stomach trouble, which is much more the pressing issue at this time.

[Pitlove]

Star rating is not important at this juncture, but proper growth is. I’d highly recommend looking into NutriSource Large Breed Puppy. It is a great food for dogs with digestive problems.

Edit: I completely agree with Crazy4Cats. I’ve used NV Rawboost and was always dissapointed about the inconsistancy of how many raw pieces I got. Better to supplement your own with meal mixers like Stella & Chewy’s or add fresh foods like C4C said. Always being careful not to tip the calcium scale too far off.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by Pitlove.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by Pitlove.

[crazy4cats]

Hi A K-
Like others have said, Nature’s Variety is a very good brand. I have tried a few different varieties and flavors and my dogs have not done well on any. So, it’s hard to say how your dog will do until you give it a try. As long as it does not contain any of the ingredients that are causing your pup trouble, then it may be fine.
I prefer to use a more budget friendly, simple kibble and add fresher less processed ingredients to it such as eggs, sardines, canned, lean leftovers, and/or commercial raw.
Also, at only 10 months old, I’d still be concerned about the calcium levels in the food since she is a large breed pup and need to be aware of potential joint issues.
I hope you find a good fit for her!

[Pitlove]

Hi A K-

Nature’s Variety is a good food, my only concern is that when I look at the link you provided the calcium and phosphorus does not say if that is the MIN or MAX levels. That is something you need to email and find out about. If those are the MIN levels of calcium and phosphorus then that food is far too high in calcium for a growing large breed puppy- however if it’s the MAX it’s on the high side, but you could still feed it.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by Pitlove.

[anonymously]

Recent NYT article, slightly off topic but relevant to the discussion (imo)

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/the-big-search-to-find-out-where-dogs-come-from/ar-BBonuuj

“Scientists have come up with a broad picture of the origins of dogs. First off, researchers agree that they evolved from ancient wolves. Scientists once thought that some visionary hunter-gatherer nabbed a wolf puppy from its den one day and started raising tamer and tamer wolves, taking the first steps on the long road to leashes and flea collars. This is oversimplified, of course, but the essence of the idea is that people actively bred wolves to become dogs just the way they now breed dogs to be tiny or large, or to herd sheep.”

[aimee]

Hi Kelly,

You can find veterinary nutritionists through their website acvn dot org. But most won’t do raw diets and even fewer a raw diet for a puppy. If you want to go that route I’d suggest trying Dr Bartges

The reason most won’t, I think, is two fold.. one the pathogen exposure and two the availability of nutrients contained in raw meaty bones isn’t quantified. Providing calcium at just the right range for a large breed pup becomes an unknown if calcium absorption from these sources isn’t known.

Some time ago I read an article on a pup that had severe calcium depletion on a home made raw diet yet there was plenty of bone in the gut.. In other words the calcium from the bone that was being fed wasn’t being absorbed.

So I wonder if a vet nutritionist who would formulate for a pup would skip the bone and use a Ca source whose availability is known.

The commercial raw foods you mention may be all life stage formula’s meaning they meet the criteria for puppies and then by default for adults.

The only company I know of that made a raw that went through feeding trials and is HPP and consults with a vet nutritionist is Natures Variety. The current formula haven’t been through feeding trials but carry a feeding trial statement by way of AAFCO’s family rule.

Like pitlove, I too have seen horrible results from a raw food diet on the growth of a puppy. The owner was an experienced raw food feeder for her past adult dogs and this was the first pup she raised on raw. The dog was anemic, small for its breed and had to have orthopedic surgery at a young age. So sad….After having seen this first hand it is why I’m uneasy with your plan.

[Pitlove]

Hi Sally- As someone who works in Great Dane rescue you will be interested in these links. They however do not support the claim that protein (of any level) effects growth in large or giants breeds.

http://portais.ufg.br/up/66/o/Racas_grandes.pdf
http://www.bestfriendsvet.com/pdffiles/BoneDevArticleWa.pdf
http://www.susanwynn.com/Literature.php- Look at the Large Breed Puppy Nutrition link

It’s been known for quite a while now that it is excessive calories and calcium- not protein- that cause disease like HOD, OCD, hip dysplasia etc.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by Pitlove.

[InkedMarie]

I highly suggest feeding wet food: raw, canned, dehyrated. If you can’t feed all wet, use a kibble of your choosing (if your puppy is large breed, they have special nutritional needs; other than that, you can use an all life stages food), add cann & warm water.

It’s very important that your pup be able to urinate often.

[Shawna]

Hi Pittiemama,

Hopefully I can help you here. My puppy had kidney disease right from birth. It is believed her kidneys just weren’t able to develop (she was the sixth puppy, the runt, for a 12 pound Chihuahua / Boston Terrier mix). The breeder had to had feed her, due to a collapsing trachea, raw goats milk and egg whites to keep her alive. She had symptoms (excessive drinking and urine) at just six weeks of age. She was officially diagnosed at one year and given a year to live. She lived to eight years and seven months old and then passed for reasons not directly related to kd.

A little background on me, my father is a naturopath. I did consult with him when I got Audrey’s diagnosis but being raised by him, I was able to mostly formulate the plan of attack myself.

Audrey’s numbers, when she was diagnosed, were right around the same as your babies — and she lived almost seven more very very healthy and happy years. It could happen for your baby too.

The first thing I would suggest is to keep up on his dental health. You won’t want to use anesthesia for dental cleanings so RIGHT now start doing anything and everything you need to keep his teeth clean. It was actually bacteria likely from a dental infection that got into Audrey’s kidneys and ultimately took her life. Use fresh garlic in his meals. Use an enzyme supplement in his water, Dr. Melissa Shelton’s essential oil called Dog Breath is very effective and a drop can be added to his water dish or you can mix with water in a spray bottle and spray right on teeth. http://www.animaleo.info/dog-breath.html I would also recommend a product made by Green Pasture’s called Infused Coconut Oil. It’s high in vitamin K2 (which has been shown to have great benefit for teeth) and has other wonderful nutrients. All of my dogs get it but I found it when Audrey’s teeth were already needing some extra support. 🙁 http://www.greenpasture.org/public/Products/InfusedCoconutOil/index.cfm

I HIGHLY recommend Standard Process Canine Renal Support. It is a food based supplement that “feeds” the kidneys but also has a product called a protomorphogen (which is the RNA/DNA of the kidney cell) that helps prevent inflammation to the kidneys. It is the one supplement she never went without. I also used their SP Canine Hepatic Support when I thought she needed a little liver support — helps with allergies too. I also used their Cataplex B and C as water soluble vitamins may need to be added due to the large amounts being urinated out.

ONLY give filtered or other forms of “clean” water. I would avoid tap water at all cost. Lower sodium mineral waters with good amounts of calcium and magnesium have been shown to be beneficial for dogs with kd. I like Evian water because it is high in calcium bicarbonate. I didn’t give it all the time but made sure (at least in the beginning) to give it regularly — I got lax in the later years and I truly believe Audrey would still be with me if I had not. She was doing so well though and my life got busier..

I HIGHLY recommend getting some Garden of Life Primal Defense probiotic and Garden of Life Acacia Fiber supplements as well. These are used as “nitrogen traps” and as BUN begins to build up the bacteria consuming the fiber will cause some of the nitrogen to be routed through the bowels freeing up the kidneys from having to deal with them. I gave probiotic foods (like green tripe, fermented veggies etc) frequently but when I noticed she was feeling a little lethargic, depressed, not feeling well etc I assumed nitrogen was building up and I’d give her the probiotics and prebiotic for several days. Always worked like a charm. Will be quite important as the disease progresses and he starts getting symptoms. This also allows for a higher protein diet. The protein doesn’t damage the kidneys but it does, due to BUN, add to symptoms. Oh, I forgot to mention. Audrey ate a HIGH protein raw diet up until the last six to eight weeks of her life. Audrey never had a problem with phosphorus but as your puppies disease progresses you may have to watch the amount of phosphorus in the foods you are feeding. The golden rule is to limit phosphorus but it’s obviously not always necessary. That said, phosphorus can damage the kidneys if it gets too high in the blood so either monitor it or feed the right amounts of phos for the stage your pup is at. Right now while phosphorus isn’t as big an issue, I like the Honest Kitchen Brave. To that I would add a raw egg a few times per week and give Answer’s raw goat milk regularly as well. Both raw eggs (if not whipped etc) and raw milk can easily increase the “master antioxidant” in the body called glutathione. This will obviously help out everything. Later, when phos needs to be more restricted, you may not be able to give the whole egg (as the yolk is higher in phos).

Supplements —
1. Organic Turmeric is good as it is anti-inflammatory but it also is anti-fibrotic (prevents scar tissue). Audrey didn’t tolerate turmeric well so she didn’t get it but in general it would be quite helpful for a dog with KD.
2. Spirulina, chlorella and pumpkin seed oil are all high in chlorophyll and supplies lots of other nutrients. Dogs with KD can be at risk for anemia and chlorophyll is awesome for anemia.
3. Burdock root is a prebiotic and of the herb world is considered to be the “blood cleaner”.
4. Milk thistle helps spare glutathione and is a good detoxer.
5. Distilled water (given once in a while) and food grade activated charcoal are good detoxers too.
6. Copaiba essential oil is great for pains and inflammation plus more. A therapeutic grade, like Dr. Sheltons, is the only kind to use on pets. Can be given in food or rubbed into the skin over the kidneys as an example.
7. Braggs brand apple cider vinegar can help with indigestion or tummy issues. Audrey didn’t need it often but when she did I would mix it 50/50 with water and syringe feed it. She hated it but within seconds would burp and feel better.
8. Therapeutic grade peppermint oil, ginger extract or Dr. Shelton’s GI Joe essential oil work great for tummy issues as well. I got sick to my tummy and used the GI Joe to help. Kept me from vomiting and soothed my tummy.
9. Learn about essential oils if you don’t already know. If you have a Facebook account, join AnimalEO’s page and sign up for Dr. Shelton’s Friday Fun Facts. I didn’t know about them early enough to be much use with Audrey (specifically Dr. Shelton’s oils) but I sure wish I had.

DON’T do ANY more vaccinations – not even rabies if you can at all avoid. Audrey was legally exempted from having to get the rabies vaccine for life. She wasn’t protected either as she only got her first shot (at six months) before diagnosis was made. No heartworm, flea/tick or anything like that either.

I know there’s things I’m forgetting but hopefully this is enough to give you a good jumping off point.. 🙂 Hugs to you and your baby boy!!!!

• This reply was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by Shawna.

[Shawna]

Hi Kelly P,

I’m a raw feeder and also recommend feeding raw right on weaning or as soon after as possible. I think feeding bones to dogs that handle them is a great idea – Of my eight, I have one that gulps and bones are too risky for her. The others actually chew so they get bones. However when it comes to large breed puppies, aimee is right. They need controlled amounts of calcium and shouldn’t be overfed. That DOESN’T mean they can’t eat raw though. Hound Dog Mom has recipes here on the forum that are an excellent option for large breed puppies.

Here’s a couple good sources on large breed puppies and calcium
“Optimal feeding of large breed puppies, Jennifer Larsen DVM, MS ”
http://www.lgd.org/library/Optimal%20feeding%20of%20large%20breed%20puppies.pdf

“The Mistake That Can Wreak Havoc on Your Dog’s Skeleton” Dr. Karen Becker DVM
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/05/31/large-dog-feeding-mistakes.aspx

Wishing best of health for your pupp!!

[Pitlove]

Hi Kelly- “Puppies need more calcium than an adult dog” Right here is where I need to stop you. Your puppy will be considered a giant breed and while you have been researching a homemade raw diet, you haven’t factored in that you have a dog that will be large. Large and giant breeds do not need more calcium, they need very very controlled levels. The ratio of calcium to phosphorus needs to fall between a 1.1:1 and a 1.5:1 ratio. Anything higher can increase the risk that they grow too quickly and develop devastating orthopedic disorders. I’ve seen the horrible effects of a large breed puppy (specifically a Great Dane) fed a raw diet that was poorly balanced.

I’m sorry, but I have to agree with Aimee on this. I’m not against feeding raw, but for a large or giant breed, optimal growth is the first and foremost important thing. I would absolutely choose a commercial food that can confirm by emailing you their as fed or MAX levels of calcium and phosphorus, that it is safe for your giant breed puppy.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by Pitlove.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by Pitlove.

[El]

Hi Kelly P

I would recommend these 2 books as part of your research into feeding a properly balanced raw diet to your pup.

“Ok I have not yet gotten my puppy I have about 4 weeks still. She will grow up to be around 100lbs, so I’ll probably feed her about 2lbs a day.”

Here are the feeding guidelines from Primal, I think they are pretty accurate. Puppies need more than 2% of their body weight daily.

Feeding Percentages
1.5% Weight Loss
2.0% Non-Active
2.5% Maintain Weight **
3.0% Slight Weight Gain
3.5% Significant Weight Gain
4.0% Kittens/Puppies (8 weeks-1 year)
4.5-8.0% Kittens/Puppies (4-8 weeks)
4.0-8.0% Pregnant/Lactating

“We will be training too with treats so I need to be sure they level each other out. I have done a lot of research as I’ve been preparing for the past 1-2 years. What I found so far is the following.
Feeding anti-oxidants or some sort of cooked veggies is a good idea.”

I would puree the veggies. Cauliflower, broccoli, spinach in moderation, green beans, peas in moderation…

“Feeding organic eggs, shell and all, is good at least once a week. Egg shells provide a lot of calcium.”

I would suggest free-range organic eggs. I know that people feed finely ground egg shells as a calcium source, but I don’t know about feeding whole egg shells. I would do a little more research specifically on the calcium requirements of large breed puppies if I were you. She will be getting calcium from bones, egg shells, spinach and ?

Feeding a whole fish once a week is good because of the oil it provides, be sure not to feed tuna because of the high mercury levels. Cooked Tripe is great and so is a some coconut oil. I figure I can saute the veggies in coconut oil.

In general, I would feed small fish, they usually have softer bones and less toxic buildup. I would not cook the tripe. One of the benefits of feeding “Raw Green Tripe” are the enzymes, and any processing or cooking will destroy those enzymes.

“As far as percentages I have read a few different things but my research has come up with the below.
Version 1
75% Muscle/skin (i.e chicken breast)
10% Edible Bone
5% Liver
5% Non liver organs
5% Anti-oxidants/Veggies
Version 2
50% Meaty Bones
35% Muscle/Skin (i.e chicken breast)
5% Liver
5% Non liver organs
5% Anti-oxidants/Veggies”

I feed my dogs a homemade lightly cooked diet. Version one looks pretty good. Since I lightly cook my guys food I would replace the 10% edible bone with 5% more pureed veggies and 5% supplements to balance out the diet.

“My main questions are about bones.”

This is good because I see bones as the riskiest part of your diet plan and I would carefully consider both sides of the argument so that you can make the most informed choice possible. Also, regarding Wolves and bones, research has shown that larger pieces of bones are excreted from wolves wrapped in the fur of the animal they ate, maybe as a way of protecting their insides from the bone fragments.

Good Luck with the new addition to your family 😉

[aimee]

Hi Kelly P,

Your plan makes me very nervous. Have you consulted with a veterinary nutritionist? There are a few that will do raw diets and even fewer yet willing to do a raw diet for a growing large breed puppy. It i s very tricky… adult dogs are much more flexible from a nutritional standpoint.

If you want to do raw from puppyhood I’d recommend a commercial raw that has passed feeding trials for growth and is high pressure pasteurized.

[Ksenia M]

Hi

I just recently emailed Taste of the Wild to ask them about certain ingredients listed in their dog food. I also have a large breed dog and inquired about their Calcium and phosphorus levels in their foods. They have the Kcal/Kg of each type of food on their website. You can use the calculator found on this website to calculate the ratios. See the email reply below.

Thank you for your inquiry.

Our bison, beef, roasted venison and buffalo originate or are sourced from suppliers in Montana, Colorado, Wyoming and Australia. Our lamb and lamb meal come from New Zealand and Australia.

Lamb meal is lamb that is cooked and ground to a fine consistency. We receive it as a dry ingredient. Egg product is cooked and dried whole eggs. Natural flavor is an ingredient that is applied to the outside of the kibble to enhance the flavor and acceptance of the dry pet food. It can be from vegetable or chicken sources (it does not contain MSG). Examples are parsley or other herbs and hydrolyzed proteins (processed so the average molecular weight of the protein is too small to be detected by the immune system which helps avoid adverse reactions in allergic pets, there is no intact protein from the chicken).

We also received your second email. The levels below are based on an as fed basis of a typical analysis of the formula.

Phosphorus Calcium
High Prairie Dog with Roasted Venison and Roasted Bison 0.9% 2.1%
Pacific Stream Dog with Smoked Salmon 1.5% 1.9%
Sierra Mountain Dog with Roasted Lamb 1.1% 1.6%
Wetlands Dog with Roasted Wild Fowl 1.1% 1.4%
Southwest Canyon Dog with Wild Boar 1.1% 1.9%
Pine Forest Dog with Venison and Legume 0.9% 1.4%
Appalachian Valley Dog with Venison and Garbanzo Beans 0.9% 1.8%

Sincerely,

Ivie
Product Specialist

I hope this helps anyone who feeds their dogs Taste of the Wild dog food. Not sure about the formatting, but the first percentage is phosphorus and the second percentage is calcium. Based on the calculator found on this website, the Roasted Wild Fowl has the optimal ratio.

[InkedMarie]

I suggest going to the Health forum here…on tp is a stickie on Large Breed puppy feeding.

[Pitlove]

Hi Danni A- It was long thought that protein affected the growth rates of large and giants breeds and could cause weight issues and rapid bone growth that lead to horrible orthopedic disorders. Since all those years ago, many nutritionists interested in large/giant breed puppy growth re-researched the subject and found that it was not protein at all in fact that was the cause, but too much or too little calcium.

That being said, so long as you not overfeeding and your dogs are maintaining an ideal weight and you are feeding a food with an as fed calcium to phosphorus ratio between 1.1:1 – 1.5:1 your pups should keep up an optimal growth pace.

If you’re ever concerned that your pups food might not be meeting these requirements, contact the company by email, ask for the MAX levels of calcium and phosphorus and use the calculator tool near the end of this article to check if the food meets your giant breeds needs for safe levels of calcium.

/best-dog-foods/best-large-breed-puppy-food/

[Pitlove]

Hi Ivan- Congratulations on your pup firstly. Malinois are absolutely stunning dogs.

Like GSD’s, Malinois’ are most often over 50lbs at max weight which means they are a large breed. Large breed puppies require a very strict diet and a food that is formulated to meet the needs of a growing LBP. This means, a food with controlled levels of calcium which will help the body grow slowly, reducing the risk of your pup developing devastating orthopedic disorders even later on in his/her life. Another thing to make sure of is that you do not overfeed too many calories. So no free feeding!

Here is a link to Dr. Susan Wynn’s site which you will find an article about Large Breed Puppy nutrition that you download to Word. Dr. Wynn is a very well respected veterinary nutritionist.

http://www.susanwynn.com/Literature.php

Also a link to the Hill’s website about LBP nutrition-

http://www.hillspet.com/en/us/dog-care/nutrition-feeding/special-diet-needs-of-large-breed-dogs

Some food suggestions to look into that are known to have safe levels of calcium are Fromm Gold Large Breed Puppy, NutriSource Large Breed Puppy, and Precise Holistic Complete Large & Giant Breed Puppy. There are a lot more out their including Royal Canin, Hill’s and Purina if you want to go that route- those I listed are just my personal favorites.

Edit: Oh you mentioned Taste of the Wild. Both their puppy formulas are formulated with safe calcium levels and would be fine for a large breed puppy.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by Pitlove.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by Pitlove.

[Laura M]

Nutrisource is a good food that deals with the sensitive digestive track very well. I put my puppy on the large breed puppy formula and he has never had a problem – even when changing over from what the breeder had him on at 9 weeks. He is 7 months old now. I would recommend it because dealing with diarrhea is no fun. I would also eliminate the greenies until you get things under control. Good luck.

[Lane M]

I have a 15 month Great Dane Mastiff mix puppy. She is about 135lbs and has a sensitive tummy. Can anyone suggest a dry food?

[Jenn H]

DogFoodie good to know. Pitlove had me a little scared when she told me Diamond makes their food. Here I thought I finally found a great food w/ low calcium that Diamond didn’t have their grubby hands in.
After communicating with them I feel pretty confident in my decision again.
I’d still like to find another food for rotating in a few months, but it’s daunting looking for something w/ less than 1.5% calcium. Even large breed puppy foods have too much which blows my mind. Shouldn’t they know that’s too much?

[Katie B]

My dog just went into CHF. She is on Dr. Gary’s Best Breed “All Breed” dry dog food. I just talked with the rep and this is the info I got.

Dr. Gary’s Best Breed Recipe / Sodium %
All Breed .38%
Large Breed Salmon & Veggie .28%
Large Breed Chicken & Veggie .28%

/dog-food-reviews/best-breed-dog-food/

[Jenn H]

I heard back from Solid Gold again today. They have been nothing less than forthcoming as far as I can tell.
After the 2012 recall they began implementing the “Positive Release” program. Which means they have an independent third party test a sample from every single batch and await for negative results before distribution.

I feel good about adding this to the rotation. Especially for the puppy. It’s almost impossible to find a large breed puppy food that doesn’t go over 1.5% calcium.

As for their supplements…they come from a company in CA that specializes in supplements. I haven’t really put a lot of effort into finding all the details on this side of the business because I don’t use a lot of their supplements and those aren’t usually recalled.

Hope this helps anyone considering Solid Gold.

[Jenn H]

I have used some of their products. No issues at all.
When they came out with a dehydrated food I contacted them to get maximum amounts of calcium & phosphorus as I have a large breed puppy.
They were very quick, thorough and helpful in helping me decided which to feed him and my other dogs.
They love the treats and foods.
And I love how forthcoming and nice the company was. Didn’t seem like they were just rattling off a script, but knew what they were talking about.
Those things matter a lot to me.

[Jenn H]

Feeding a rotation diet is a great idea for a lot of reasons.
Since your pup is still so young it’s best to keep her on the Wellness until 6 months. Once she’s 6 months old, then you can start the rotating.
I did the same thing as you. Once I took my guy home I started him on Wellness Core Puppy. I wanted him off the Purina ASAP. I had trouble finding an easily available brand with less than 1.5% calcium. (He’s a large breed so I have to be careful about that.)
It’s best to leave things be for now. Puppies have very sensitive digestive systems that aren’t really ready for a lot of dietary changes. If the Wellness works for her don’t mess with it.

[Jenn H]

I have an almost 7 month GSD puppy. He’s already in the mid 60s in weight.
Until he was 6 months old he had been getting Wellness Core Grain Free Puppy. It was a very good food. And I chose it because it was the best food with the least amount of calcium that was available at big box stores making it easy for my husband could pick it up when I needed him to.
(The other Wellness large breed puppy/all life stages foods have more calcium than the aforementioned.)
I like to rotate my dog’s foods every few months and had a hard time looking for food that met the same criteria and hopefully wasn’t grain free. (I prefer they not be limited to ingredients unless there’s a medical need.)
After much searching & contacting of companies (since they love to only list the min amt of calcium in the GA) I settled on Solid Gold Wolf Cub.
I highly recommend it! Gronk is finally satisfied after meals and I have to feed him half as much. (I actually feed 1/4-1/2 cup less than recommended to allow aome wiggle room for other things.) I thought for sure that would piss him off. I’m saving a bundle too!!!!
The other thing that happened often with his previous food was intermittent diarrhea. Even though the dogs get pumpkin every morning he still had soft/mushy/watery stools once in a while. Hasn’t happened once since the switch!
I’m definitely keeping this puppy food in the rotation. Hope to have the same results with the adult formulas.
Anyone obsessively looking for a good food for their large breed pup and can’t spend a fortune may want to check out Solid Gold Wolf Cub.
The company itself was also very quick & helpful in response to my questions. To me that’s a huge plus.

[Michelle R]

It is true that you should not reduce the amount of protein for senior pets. In fact, some senior pets actually need more protein as they start to lose muscle mass. We are veterinarian owned and operated facility and specialize in pet nutrition. We are also the author of the Complete Dog Food Reference Guide which is in currently it’s 4th revision. You can read more about this from Tufts University: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/05/05/surprising-findings-from-tufts-study-of-37-senior-dog-foods.aspx

The only dietary requirement that differs is between puppies and adults. The rest is not an AAFCO feed requirement and is rather a gimmick to increase product sales (i.e. Senior diets, Large Breed, Small Breed, Breed-specific diets, hairball diets, indoor, etc). Only a pet in organ failure may require dietary protein adjustments as specifically directed by a veterinarian.

[Linda B]

Hi!
I understand that we need to watch the calcium levels in the foods our large breed puppies are eating as well as avoiding over feeding. My concern is treats… I’ve heard that freeze dried liver is high in calcium. Should this be limited as a treat for my puppy? I would imagine cheese is a big no no. I need to use a lot of high value treats, (as well as puppy kibble) for training purposes but I am concerned about the “hidden calcium” adding up.
Thank you for any advice!
Linda

[Daniel H]

We had our puppy on diamond naturals puppy food and he loves it and did very well in it. Our dog is a small breed but you can get large breed puppy at tractor supply for $41.99 for a 40lb bag so around $1.04 per lb since you mentioned 4health it’s something I would consider. Diamond natural is good food and you would be able to get it at tractor supply as well.

[Pitlove]

http://www.chewy.com/dog/nutrisource-large-breed-puppy/dp/38141- $1.56 per/lb

http://www.chewy.com/dog/taste-wild-high-prairie-puppy/dp/34836- $1.19 per/lb

http://www.chewy.com/dog/whole-earth-farms-puppy-recipe-dry/dp/101864- $1.19 per/lb

These three foods are safe for large breed puppies and could fit within your budget. Chewy.com has great customer service and they ship fast. Many of us have used this site frequently.

[InkedMarie]

go to th diet and health issues forum, under this one. On top, in a yellow stickie, is a long thread on feeding large breed puppies. You may find a problem with your budget. With everything, actually. Large breeds will cost you more for food, supplements, grooming, some medicines, crate etc.