I had this very same issue last week! Here is my thread on it that had some very good answers.
/forums/topic/crooked-leg-to-much-protein/
First off I found that I was feeding a food that was WAY to high in calcium for a large breed puppy (I have an American Bull Dog). A Great Dane, being a large breed puppy needs a food that has the appropriate calcium levels. I recommend reading Hound Dog Moms thread on Large and Large and Giant Breed Puppy Nutrition ( /forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/ )
Here is a link on calcium level appropriate foods for large breed dogs https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BwApI_dhlbnFY183Q0NVRXlidWc . Hound Dog Mom also put this list together. It is in the form of a google document and you have to download it. Don’t be alarmed I promise there are no viruses in it as I have downloaded and looked at it myself. It has helped ALOT.
I did end up taking my puppy (who was 9 weeks at the time) to the vet and they thought he had shifted his growth plate when they looked at his x-rays. This was on a Friday. They put a splint on him to keep him from damaging it further and sent me to an orthopedic surgeon which I went to on Monday. When the orthopedic surgeon took the splint off to look his leg was normal, there was no sign of knuckling over at all. They took another x-ray and said he was absolutely fine. They said that perhaps the way the x-ray was angled at my vets office it made it look like it had shifted. But I gotta say in the short time he wore that splint I believe it fixed his knuckling over.
All in all I would suggest a trip to your vets office just to rule out anything being broken or out of place. After all, it’s better to catch these things now when they are fixable than to wait and have your puppies leg permanently damaged.
Hope I helped and I hope your puppies leg gets better! Keep us posted!
Most up to date list of recommended foods (finally got around to removing the grain-free Dr. Tim’s):
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFQXNYZW01VzRVV00/edit?usp=sharing
I have been using a whole food supplement and my dogs have been doing amazing. There moods are calmer yet they seem to have more energy. The coat looks amazing and my oldest is getting up the stairs easier. http://www.friendsfurlife.rockyandbella.com I totally recommend it. I use Pedigree maintenance however surviving and thriving are 2 different things all together. My Aunts dog is diabetic and told me that she has been able to cut down on the amount of meds for him so that is a testimony in itself.
Hi sheeklouch –
Orijen is a wonderful food (it’s actually the best dry food out there – imo), however (unfortunately) none of their formulas are appropriate for large breed puppies – they are all much too high in calcium. For this reason, I’ve never fed Orijen to any of my pups but I have fed it to my adult with great success.
Gertie my now two year old female ate The Honest Kitchen (Zeal, Love, Thrive) and Tripett until she was 8 months old. Mabel, my newest addition, who just turned 7 months old has been on a controlled calcium homemade raw diet since she came to me at 8 weeks (my other two dogs eat raw now as well).
I think that most dogs do well on high protein foods (Gertie and Mabel both ate >40% protein on average) – if your dog is having loose stools with high protein foods I’d suggest trying a spoonful of plain canned pumpkin, a multi-strain probiotic and digestive enzymes at each meal.
Assuming you want to stick with a dry food, here is a list of recommended foods. Sometimes it’s trial and error and you may need to try a few foods before you find on that works for your dog. Some dogs are just more sensitive than others.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFY183Q0NVRXlidWc/edit
Dear Hound Dog Mom,
I have a 13 week old pure bread Bullmastiff and I was wondering what you would recommend feeding him. The breeder recommended that we feed him Orijen Large Puppy Breed and the reviews all seemed positive so we gave it a try. After a few weeks, he is having trouble digesting it and having very soft stools almost diarrhea like. The vet told us that sometimes the high amount of protein in Orijen is hard for young puppies to digest and we should try switching over to a different type of food with a protein level around 30%. What would you recommend we switch too? Thanks!
I have a new Black Lab puppy and I started feeding her NutriSource Large Breed Puppy Chicken and Rice . So what does everyone think of this food? It is reasonable priced I am not rich so I am trying to feed my puppy the food I can afford any help would be great
Ken
DieselJunki –
I’m sure there are several issues at play here all playing a part in this condition but NV Chicken (assuming you’re talking about the Instinct variety) is extremely high in calcium – the AAFCO max. calcium level allowed in food is 2.5% and this food is 2.49%, the level of calcium recommended for large breed puppy growth is generally 1.2% or below (so this food has over twice as much calcium as veterinary nutritionists recommend for large breed growth). The NV Instinct Rabbit formula and the Limited Ingredient Turkey formula are within the recommended calcium levels.
Hi DieselJunki –
It looks to me like your pup is knuckling over. You breeder gave you horrible advice, supplementing with calcium and reducing the protein will not help and could potentially make the issue worse. Calcium needs to be in balance with phosphorus – the ratio needs to be between 1:1 and 2:1 calcium to phosphorus. Commercial foods have a balanced ratio, so by supplementing with addition calcium you will likely throw the ratio off. You never ever want to supplement a balanced diet with calcium (unless advised by a veterinarian) and especially not for a growing puppy. Too much calcium in the diet actually contributes to developmental orthopedic diseases, such as knuckling over. Knuckling over, along with excess calcium, can be caused by overfeeding, having your pup walk around on inappropriate flooring (slippery floors) or by feeding low quality foods containing nutrients that have a low bio-availability. The good news is, if this is knuckling over (which I suspect it is) it can easily be reversed with no permanent damage. Get your dog on a balanced quality food with appropriate calcium levels and monitor intake (DO NOT overfeed). Also, get your pup to a vet asap! The vet should check to see if the dog has any parasites or underlying issues that could be causing nutrient deficiencies and the legs may need to be splinted for awhile. The following is some info on knuckling over:
http://vri.cz/docs/vetmed/51-2-71.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2905020/ .
You may also want to check out the articles posted on large breed puppy nutrition (if you haven’t already):
/forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/
SO I have had my puppy for about a week now and in that week we have noticed his leg is crooked. It’s awkward looking. It’s not painful to him but it’s like he can’t support his weight on it. He stumbles over it occasionally and favors it. You really noticed it when he stands up straight. When he’s drinking or eating at his bowl it shakes like crazy.
I emailed the breeder first off and she replied telling me that “Yes I’ve seen that in puppies, what kind of puppy food are you feeding? It’s too high in protein and he is outgrowing his joints/ligaments or vice versa. Get him some calcium treat tablets too just one a day or the directions on the container, and that will help too, try to get him started on them tomorrow. They grow so fast sometimes that happens. But do have your vet look at him when you go. With in a few days to a week you will be able to tell the difference, you may need to cut back on the high protein in puppy food or mix with a lower protein for awhile.”
I thought we were trying to keep the calcium to a low on these large breeds but she wants me to feed him calcium?
I guess I cannot link pictures here but I’m gunna try anyways.
Hi Melissa –
These are the foods I would recommend:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFY183Q0NVRXlidWc/edit
Any of the foods on my list would be appropriate for all life stages. All life stages is the same as a formula that is labeled for puppies or growth. The Earthborn Holistic Coastal Catch and Meadow Feast are both grain-free appropriate for large breed puppies. I know I looked into Performatrin Ultra grain-free and either the calcium levels were too high or the company never responded to my inquiry about calcium levels (I can’t remember, I made the list quite awhile ago). I wouldn’t feed the grain-inclusive Earthborn because it’s too low in protein, I think the grain-free varieties are much better. All the foods on my list are grain-free, but whether you want to feed grain-inclusive or grain-free is really up to you. I personally think grains aren’t appropriate for dogs and feed all my dog grain-free. If you do go with a grain-inclusive food be sure to check the calcium level (under 3.5 g. calcium per 1,000 kcal.) and try to find a variety with at least 30% protein (anything below that is really too low, especially for a puppy – imo).
Hello Hound Dog Mom your info on large brreds is awesome thanks so much I was told to look at your links etc from Betsy. I have a 11 week old Great Pyranees and a 7 and 1/2 year old Samoyed (Neutered) Looking to see which food to feed each of them or just one all life stages.. Have you checked Performatrin Ultra Grain Free food? I did not see the calcium level on that and I did call the company…wasnt sure if you reccomend this food..Also Earthborn Holistic ?(it is not grain free) This is all new to me with all of the grain free foods..not sure to feed them grain or grain free..Puppy is on Puppy chow purina and am switching over now…can tstand that stuff! And my older dog was on Harmony Farms Holistic Lean weight formula for years but doesnt love his food..(he is not over weight) Any suggestions would be great
Thanks SO Much
Melissa
Other than getting a kibble for large breeds, the biggest kibble I’ve come across while finding food for my pugs is Core Reduced Fat and Core Original. It’s sort of triangular last time I used it and would consider it medium sized. I thought it was a little large for the smaller pugs. Although kibble is hard to digest so getting a larger kibble would make digestion more difficult. The smaller surface area and diameter of kibble the easier it is to breakdown. (Although size of kibble is not the only factor in good digestion). I’ve read here that some large breed owners dogs did better with smaller kibble versus large kibble. Specifically someone’s large dog did better digestion-wise on EVO Small Bites (which he accidentally bought) vs the regular size EVO. Same flavor of kibble, just purchased the wrong size. That being said you have the option of adding a probiotic/digestive enzyme to help with digestion if you go with a larger kibble. Most dogs don’t chew so a large kibble might be a choking hazard. If your dog likes to play with food how about putting the small kibble into a treat ball (like an IQ ball or Kong) where he has to work to get it out.
My dog was struggling with this for the past year. I spent several hundred dollars taking her to the vet to have the glands expressed weekly, and then antibiotics prescribed by the vet, two rounds, over two months, and still not better. The vet wanted to do surgery to remove the glands, but at $1400 and a 12 year old large breed dog, I was reluctant. I let it go for awhile and the poor dog was licking daily…so I was just about to go ahead with surgery but in a last ditch effort I switched her from Chicken and Rice to lamb and RIce (kirkland) and ordered online a Homeopathic remedy,
http://www.naturalcanine.com/AAGKH.html Silicea, and Hepar Sulph Calc. I thought for a mere $25 what did I have to loose? Well people, I SWEAR THIS WORKED and I am so happy for the first time in a year my dog is not licking anymore. Now in all fairness even the vet told me that eventually that sac would rupture and drain, not too pleasant for the dog….but I really watched my dog carefully go through all this over the past year, and I really do believe this homeopathic solution WORKED . For $25 it is worth a try. There are several pills, it is great value and will treat your dog more than once IF needed…..its a long process over several weeks and i had to write it all down on my calendar to keep track of the dosages but it comes with detailed instructions. PLEASE DO YOUR DOG A FAVOUR AND GIVE IT A TRY! If this works for you, you are only out $25…it is definately worth the attempt. I tried the pumpkin too for months but that didnt really work for my dog. Since I saw this miracle unfold I have been reading online about homeopathic remedies, and this is also used for humans (the Silicea) to help drain boils, and the Sulph is to fight the infection I believe. So I guess this is a common homeopathic remedy to drain infection from the body and also to keep those glands open to continue to drain. It is a miracle and I am not a person who often ventures outside of conventional medicine,but I have a new respect and interest in this homeopathic alternative now. The proof is that my dog is not licking anymore for the first time in a year. $25 beats the $700 I spent at the vet, plus the potential $1400 I was about to spend. Please give it a try and write back to let me know if it worked for you too! Its really a good feeling to see my dog not suffer anymore and to know I can easily afford this!
Check out the raw food thread. All three of my bloodhounds – ages 7 yrs, 2 yrs, and 6 mos. – are on a homemade raw diet. I have several of my recipes posted in the forum and there are also some links to some informative websites and some reading suggestions from myself and others.
Thanks for the share, HDM–I’m intrigued by the idea of feeding raw food. Hm…
Hi Mrs4444 –
Sorry to hear about your dog. Below is a link to an article by Dr. Becker that discusses pano. Dr. Becker says she’s had success supplementing with proteolytic enzymes, calcarea carbonica, arnica and Standard Process’ Musculoskeletal Support. Another poster on this site has a golden pup with pano and I believe she’s supplementing with turmeric and omega 3’s and having luck with that. Also, make sure you don’t let your pup play too hard – heavy activity can aggravate the condition.
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/02/27/three-common-bone-growth-conditions-in-puppies-and-young-dogs.aspx
Thanks for starting this thread. Our six-month-old lab has developed panosteitis, and I want to make sure I’m feeding him the right food. I’ve started feeding him From 4-star. Hopefully, that will help.
Hi Gumbo and Roux Mama –
I consider any dog that will be 60 pounds or more at maturity to be a large breed. If your pup is 8 months old and only 40 lbs. she’ll likely be a medium-sized dog at maturity, but definitely on that medium/large borderline. Feeding a small or medium sized dog as a large breed won’t hurt, so if you’re unsure there’s no reason you can keep the dog lean, limit calcium and limit strenuous exercise, etc. As for her weight, just google body weight scores for dogs and you’ll be able to find pictures of what a good weight should look like. I personally keep my dogs on the lean side, probably leaner than most keep their dogs – I’d rather see my dogs borderlining underweight than borderlining overweight. I think with large dogs any excess weight is just excess stress on the joints. You should see a waistline when you view the dog from above, an abdominal tuck when viewed from the side, you should be able to feel the ribs but they shouldn’t be protruding. A good indication that the dog is underweight is if you can see the hip bones – if you can see these she’s too thin.
The information provided by Hound Dog Mom is extremely helpful, but I am having a hard time deciding if my 8 month old puppy would be considered a large breed. After doing reserch, there are many varing opinions on what designates a large breed dog. My girl is a rescue and we were told she was a Boxer/Lab mix but who knows! She is definitely Boxer, but not certain about the lab. At 8 months, she weighs 40 pounds but is really lean. I worry that she borders on being a bit too thin but do not want to overfeed her in an effort to prevent future problems. Being new to this site, I certainly welcome any and all advice!
Hi DieselJunki –
Congrats on the new family member! 🙂
Amierican Bulldogs would be considered a large breed, so you should feed them as such. Nature’s Variety Instinct Rabbit would be a wonderful choice for your new pup – the calcium levels are right where they should be. All three of my dogs now eat a raw diet, but my oldest used to eat kibble and I used Nature’s Variety Instinct in my rotation frequently – he loved the food and did well on it. All of Nature’s Variety Instinct foods are approved for “All Life Stages” meaning that they meet the nutrition requirements of any age dog – puppy right through to senior. Any 4 or 5 star canned food would make a great topper – as long as you’re only using a little canned to mix with the dry you shouldn’t need to worry about calcium levels too much. My only other suggestion would be to pick at least one or two other dry foods to rotate with – rotational feeding is much healthier than feeding the same food continuously and if you get your new pup accustomed to rotational feeding while he is young it will be easier to change foods later on. If you check out the “Diet and Health Issues” forum and go to the sticky “Large and Giant Breed Puppy Nutrition” topic you’ll find a list with other 4 and 5 star grain-free foods that would be a good choice for your pup.
On Friday I will be getting an American Bull Dog puppy. He was born on 11.23.2012
Now I have been researching dog nutrition as I always believe in feeding my animals the best of the best no matter the cost. I travel quite a bit for work and although I would love to feed raw it is just not in the picture so a good kibble will have to suffice with some wet mixed in on occasion.
I believe I have found the food that I believe to be right. I had found a link here that talked about the calcium levels in the foods and based my decision of the review and the amount of calcium.
Natures Variety Instinct: Rabbit. It had a good review aside from having canola oil in it. Calcium per the list that I found on here is 1.12%, 3.34 g./1,000 kcal.
My question is is this ok for a puppy to eat? American Bull Dogs are pretty much a large breed right? I do want to be sure to watch my calcium levels here?
Saireah –
That’s really a tough question to answer as each dog is very different. The best thing you can do is monitor his his weight and adjust the food intake accordingly. So many factors can affect the calorie requirements of a dog including size, activity level, age, breed, gender, whether the dog is spayed or neutered, temperature, level of stress, etc. etc. A good place to start would be the feeding recommendation on the bag. Looking at Fromm’s feeding recommendation for their 4 Star line it’s based on an adult dog, so I would find his weight on the chart and double the suggested cups per day (because he’s a puppy and puppies at that age generally require about twice as many calories per pound as an adult dog). When he’s around 6 months old you could probably cut back to about 1 1/2 times the recommended amount for an adult dog. If he gets chubby cut him back, if he looks like he’s losing weight increase his feedings. Starting with the feeding chart on the bag is the and adjusting from there is the best suggestion I can give you. From personal experience though, you’ll probably have to adjust it. Just as an example, by 68 lb. spayed female eats the same amount as my 110 lb. unaltered male – doesn’t make any sense, right? According to Dr. Mike’s dog food calculator she should get 1,639 calories per day – she eats 2,500 calories per day.
Definitely makes sense. Thanks!
You seem quite knowledgeable with large breeds, so I have a question if you wouldn’t mind? We’ve decided to keep our foster puppy (yay!) — but I’m not sure how much to feed him given his breed background. Again, his mother was a 60lb black lab and his father was a 150lb purebred English mastiff. I’m going to be feeding him the Fromm Four Star line. Quinn, our 50-ishlb lab/vizsla mix, gets just under 2 cups a day as we’re trying to keep her at a leaner weight due to her hip dysplasia. Ideally, she would be 45-50lbs per our discussion with Iowa State. However, for Mr. Unnamed, how many cups per day would you suggest on the Fromm Four Star line? He is 3 months old.
Thanks again for your spreadsheet — it solidified my decision to feed Fromm’s!
Due to having a life besides my dogs, but having the desire to feed them a healthy raw diet, I was wondering what is a simply reciept to feed them daily the same food home made mix. I have two old Malamute/Retriever mixes and two young 3 months old puppies. All are currently on Orijen (large breed and adult) dry food, which they like and do well on. Also, how do you grind your meat, especially the bones and does anybody have a recommendation for a meat grinder.
Well I asked for the “average calcium level” of the grain-free Kinesis. The reason I email each company directly and ask for the average is because what’s stated on the website and product packaging is the guaranteed minimum, not what’s actually in the food. Generally the average calcium level is quite a bit higher than the stated minimum. Dr. Tim’s site states 0.97% min – so when I asked for the average I’m assuming he gave me the average for that formula. Then for the grain-free the min is 1.51%, so the average is likely somewhere around 1.8% or so. Hope that makes sense!
Hmm! Their calcium for the grain inclusive formula is min. 0.97%. Maybe their site is wrong and your list is still okay? I can send them an e-mail separately and see what they say to me if you’d like?
Hi Saireah –
Thanks for pointing that out about the Dr. Tim’s – I’ll have to remove it from the list. I got the percentage from Dr. Tim’s customer service, I emailed them and asked them for the average calcium percentage of the grain-free Kinesis. Looking at their site, I think there was some confusion and they accidentally gave me the calcium level for the grain-inclusive Kinesis. I had the email saved and checked it and I did say grain free Kinesis, so it must have been a mix up.
Hello! This is EXACTLY the thread that I was looking for. We have a 1.5 year old vizsla/lab mix who has hip dysplasia. While I feel as if I didn’t feed her the best food during her first year (Nature’s Recipe – Large Breed Puppy), I have been feeding her better food since. I’m definitely more educated. She’s currently transitioning to Fromm’s Four Star Grain-Free Game Bird recipe from Acana Ranchlands due to itchiness from Acana.
We are fostering a lab/mastiff mix whose parents were a 60lb lab (mom) and a 150lb purebred mastiff (dad). I have been trying to find the “best” food to feed him — and I am thrilled that I might be able to feed the same food to both of my dogs!
I do have a question, though. You state that Dr. Tim’s Kinesis (grain-free) has 1.3% calcium — where did you get this number? His site (http://drtims.com/grain-free/) states 1.51%, unless I’m reading it incorrectly.
I’m trying to choose between Fromm’s Four Star line (I love that you can swap flavors to give variety and I also love that you can feed less because they have a bit higher protein/fat content than the grain inclusive Four Star!) or transitioning both of my dogs to Dr. Tim’s Kinesis (GF).
I want to make sure that I am feeding my dogs one of the best foods! I know that either of these choices would be okay for Quinn, but I am really worried about hip dysplasia in a second dog. Any advice or feedback would be really appreciated. 🙂
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Just me, but these dogs have tons of stress on their joints because of their crooked legs. I would still want to pay close attention to calcium levels.
That’s sort of what I was thinking-Since the dogs full weight is going to be under 40 lbs “by design” it would no longer be considered a large breed, and the lower calcium etc would not come into play. I was thinking the Acana line would be fine, but wanted others opinions on whether or not they think the dog should be fed low cal/phos, or if it should not matter.
No input on diet except I don’t think I would consider it a large breed anymore since it’s mini, but mini bulldog sounds interesting!! One of my toy breed pugs is 30 lbs!! The 60 lb bulldog we fostered for 2 months didn’t get along here so we had to pass her along to another home 🙁
As best as I understand, there is no down side to feeding a puppy as a large breed. Controlled calcium is not bad for small or medium breeds. Slow steady growth is good for all puppies.
Hey everyone-
Have a question and looking for others input. English bulldogs are normally considered a large breed dog, and they are prone to hip issues-“Full size” is normally 45-65lbs or so-just short, cobby and heavy in a smaller package. Easy enough-feed as a large breed puppy.
Opinions needed on this-What about mini English Bulldogs? These kids go typically 14 inches tall, and 26-45 lbs tops. These are AKC registered English bulldogs, that are bred to be smaller(purebred to purebred, smallest to smallest until a constant size is produced) So, the genetics are the same, the “package” is just smaller. Someone I know hit Santa over the head with a frying pan, and he coughed up a Christmas puppy, albeit belated, lol.
Hi Jagger
I like Merricks 96% grain free canned,Fromm,wellness 95%,Tripett,BB Wilderness.They are all nice toppers.We use canned 3 times a week.We also use fresh meat as toppers.Ground chicken/turkey,gizzards,beef,sardines,venison,eggs,yogurt . Brothers Complete is the kibble we use with a bag of fromms grain free once in awhile…
Sorry Jagger2012, I just noticed this post. I’m not sure why you’re not seeing the document, it’s working for me. I’ll try posting a new link, let me know if this works: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BwApI_dhlbnFY183Q0NVRXlidWc
Hound Dog Mom,
For some reason I am unable to view the document. Is it just unavailable for some reason? I am looking for dry kibble and a canned food topper for my 5 month old Lab. Any help would be great! Thank you!
I’ve also had success with weight loss just by increasing the protein and decreasing the carbs of a grain-inclusive food by mixing it with a higher protein grain free food, ie Merrick Wilderness or Turducken (discontinued formulas) cut with Blue Buffalo Wilderness. For me, at any age, the increased protein and decreased carbs helped the dogs with weight loss. There are some high protein grain-inclusive foods as well, such as Merrick Classic and Acana Classic, and foods designed for puppies generally have a higher protein content as well (but not always) like Nutrisource Large Breed Puppy. I would chose the Nutrisource Performance formula over the large breed puppy formula for weight loss and yes for your senior. It is rated for all lifes stages. You would of course be able to feed a lesser amount.
They have found that protein is not the issue with large breed dogs. The study that concluded that high protein played a role was actually faulty and has been disproven for quite some time now, but it’s a bandwagon that is easy for vets to jump on since they don’t have much education in nutrition and what they do have is from pet food companies that want business not what is best for your pet.
that’s some good info. are you also watching the protein %. I have a friend that has a great dane pup. and has been told to watch the protein, to be under 25.
Avoderm-their revolving menu only
Back to Basics-all grainfree’s
Brothers Complete-all
California Natural grain free-salmon & peas, kangaroo & lentils, chicken
Canidae Grain Free Pure Land
Canine Caviar-all grainfree’s
DNA-all
Earthborn-Meadow Feast and Great Plains
Evangers grainfree-both
Evo herring & salmon
Evo weight management
Freehand-Energize only
Grandma Lucy’s Pureformance-all
Grandma Mae’s Country Natural-grainfree only
Great Life Pioneer Naturals grain free-all
Great Life-all
Hi-Tek Naturals GF Chicken and Sweet Potato
Horizon Amicus-all
Horizon Legacy-all
Horizon Pulsar-both
I and Love and You Nude Food
Innova Prime-all
LiveFree (by Dogswell)
Nature’s Select grain free-all
Nature’s Variety Instinct-all including raw boost
NRG-Maxim
Nutripe-all
Nutrisca-all grainfree’s
NutriSource grainfree-all except the large breed chicken & large breed lamb
Pet Botanics-Healthy Omega only
Precise grain free-both
Red Moon-high protein chicken, moderate protein chicken only
Sojos grainfree-all
Spring Meadows-all
The Honest Kitchen-Zeal only
Victor grainfree-all
Wellness Core Wild Game
Wysong Epigen-fish formula
Zignature-all
Ziwi Peak-all of the air dried
Orijen
Halo Spot’s Choice (canned)
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This topic was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by
Mike Sagman. Reason: Added 4 new foods submitted by PugMomSandy
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This topic was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by Mike Sagman. Reason: Added 2 more candidates submitted by PugMomSandy
Aimee,
Also, very good advice. I hope readers take the time to follow your suggestions, too. Advice like this could save a lot of great animals from the heartbreak of hip dysplasia and other canine skeletal diseases.
Hound Dog Mom,
Thanks for posting your list of recommended foods for large breed puppies. The commercial products it contains appear to be both practical and well-researched. I found this footnote reassuring too…
“All calculations are based on actual or average calcium percentage. Companies that could not disclose actual or average calcium content were not included.”
Thanks again for sharing this valuable list. The information you provided along with many of Aimee’s previous postings on the blog could be the basis for a future article on this subject.
Nice job!
HDM ~~ most of the dogs I foster are puppies. I had one I was particularly taken by. He was part Boston Terrier, part some type of Bully breed and his DNA test said part Dalmation?.. He and his mommy came to me when he was just 4 days old (eyes still closed)… Raising him from such a tender age and being part Bully he could do no wrong in my eyes :).. (He looked like a Bully with his square head and major brindling.)
We made a 4 foot by 4 foot enclosure out of 2x4s and plastic chicken wire for the puppies that gave them plenty of space for a kennel, a doggy bed, a potty pad and a water dish. We kept them here while we were gone at work. Not one puppy ever damaged the enclosure til this little guy (must have been at least 15-20 before him). Came home one day and his mommy was in the enclosure and he was running around my bedroom floor being as naughty as puppies can be.. Upon closer inspection, he had chewed a hole in the plastic fencing large enough for his body to get through (he was still TINY at the time).. All I could do was laugh…
Although my little man, and all the puppies, were often mischeivous, it was the adult puppy mill breed dogs that were the most destructive. The bite strength of an adult, in puppy learning mode.. Say goodbye to a $50 pair of shoes due to one 5 year old male, couch and lawn furniture cushions/pillows due to a 6 year old female, mentioned the lamp that a 2 year old female ate in another forum, same 2 year old used my wooden headboard as a chew toy etc.. Add my grandbabies to the mix, there isn’t much in my house that doens’t need to be replaced… 🙂
I’d surely take Miss Mabel. However after feeding her for a week I’m sure I’d find a way to get her back to you.. I’m bettin she eats as much or more than all of mine combined!!!!!!!!!
We should also consider that if recall is grounds not to buy a brand then we would prob be out of luck all together and unable to buy any. Here is the recall list of brands having been recalled:
ALPO
Americas Choice, Preferred Pet
Authority
Award
Best Choice
Big Bet
Big Red
Bloom
Blue Buffalo (RICE GLUTEN)
Bruiser
Cadillac
Canine Caviar Pet Foods (RICE GLUTEN)
Champion Breed Lg Biscuit
Champion Breed Peanut Butter Biscuits
Co-Op Gold
Companion
Companion’s Best Multi-Flavor Biscuit
Compliments
Costco/Kirkland Signature (RICE GLUTEN)
Demoulas Market Basket
Diamond Pet Food
Diamond Pet Food (RICE GLUTEN)
Doctors Foster & Smith
Doctors Foster & Smith (RICE GLUTEN)
Dollar General
Eukanuba Can Dog Chunks in Gravy
Eukanuba Pouch Dog Bites in Gravy
Food Lion
Giant Companion
Gravy Train
Grreat Choice
Hannaford
Happy Tails
Harmony Farms (RICE GLUTEN)
Harmony Farms Treats (RICE GLUTEN)
Health Diet Gourmet Cuisine
Hill Country Fare
Hy Vee
Hy-Vee
Iams Can Chunky Formula
Iams Can Small Bites Formula
Iams Dog Select Bites
Jerky Treats Beef Flavored Dog Snacks
La Griffe
Laura Lynn
Loving Meals
Master Choice
Meijer’s Main Choice
Mighty Dog
Mixables
Mulligan Stew Pet Food (RICE GLUTEN)
Natural Balance (RICE GLUTEN)
Natural Life
Natural Way
Nu Pet
Nutriplan
Nutro
Nutro – Ultra
Nutro Max
Nutro Natural Choice
Nuture
Ol’ Roy
Ol’ Roy 4-Flavor Lg Biscuits
Ol’ Roy Canada
Ol’ Roy Peanut Butter Biscuits
Ol’ Roy Puppy
Ol’Roy US
Paws
Perfect Pals Large Biscuits
Performatrin Ultra
Pet Essentials
Pet Life
Pet Pride / Good n Meaty
Presidents Choice
Price Chopper
Priority Canada
Priority US
Publix
Roche Brothers
Royal Canin (RICE GLUTEN)
Royal Canin Veterinary Diet (RICE GLUTEN)
Save-A-Lot Choice Morsels
Schnuck’s
Schnucks
Shep
Shep Dog
Shop Rite
SmartPak (RICE GLUTEN)
Springfield Prize
Sprout
Stater Brothers
Stater Brothers Large Biscuits
Stop & Shop Companion
Tops Companion
Triumph
Truly
Weis Total Pet
Western Family Canada
Western Family US
White Rose
Winn Dixie
Your Pet
Hound Dog Mom,
That is a great compilation of articles on large breed growth. The most important tenets of large breed nutrition are to keep the puppy lean during the growth period and to feed foods that have a calcium level near 1% (dry diets).
Calcium levels over 1.3 % in a dry food are likely approaching or above the safe upper limit for growth. Since there is no benefit to feeding these higher calcium products to a growing large breed and there may well be risk to the developing skeleton, IMHO they should not be fed during the growth period of a large/giant breed puppy.
Unfortunately, manufactures may state their foods are appropriate for large breed growth when they exceed the recommended level and may even say it is a dietary factor other than calcium that is responsible for the growth problems seen in large breeds. It really is a buyer beware situation as even foods labeled as “large breed puppy” sometimes exceed the recommended level of calcium.
On a energy basis the recommended amount of calcium is 3 grams/1000 kcals. The National Research Council sets the safe upper limit for calcium during growth at 4.5 grams/1000kcals. The European Pet Food Association sets the limit at 4 grams calcium /1000 kcals in puppies less than 6 months. AAFCO allows 7.14 grams/1000 kcals which is why large breed puppy owners have to be vigilant.
Additionally, as you pointed out, when evaluating calcium levels in foods you have the know the actual calcium level in the food. Manufactures often report min. calcium levels so that their foods appear to have a calcium level lower than what they actually have.
Many may have already seen this, but I’ll re-post here. This is a list I put together myself of foods that I feel are good choices for growing large and giant breed puppies. This list includes only grain-free 4 and 5 star foods with 3.5 g. calcium per 1,000 kcal. or less and approved for “growth” or “all life stages”. I based the calcium per energy density levels on overall research I’ve done and figures given in the Lauten article posted above. I contacted all the companies directly via email or phone to obtain the actual (not minimum) calcium levels of their foods.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFY183Q0NVRXlidWc/edit
These are a few of my favorite articles and studies on the topic:
1. “Nutritional Risks to Large and Giant Breed Dogs: From Weaning to the Geriatric Years” by Susan D. Lauten, PhD
http://portais.ufg.br/uploads/66/original_Racas_grandes.pdf
2. “Growth and Skeletal Development of Great Dane Pups Fed Different Levels of Protein Intake” Nap, Hazewinkel, Voorhout, Van Den Brom, Goedegebuure and Van ‘T Klooster
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/121/11_Suppl/S107.full.pdf
3. “Dietary Mineral Levels Affect Bone Development in Great Dane Pups” by Henry J. Baker DVM
http://www.bestfriendsvet.com/pdffiles/BoneDevArticleWa.pdf
4. “Feeding Large Breed Puppies” by Jennifer Larsen DVM, PhD, DACVN
http://mobile.vetlearn.com/Media/images/pdf/2010/PV/PV0510_Nutrition.pdf
5. “Why Overgowing Your Large Breed Puppy is Dangerous” Dr. Karen Becker DVM
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/04/09/slow-growth-diets-for-giant-breed-puppy.aspx
Hi guys –
The topic of large and giant breed puppy nutrition seems to come up quite often on DFA, so I thought it should have its own topic. Being that I own bloodhounds (large dogs prone to growth issues), it’s a topic I’m very passionate about. Proper nutrition can potentially help your large breed puppy or giant breed puppy avoid growth issues such as hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia and pano. I thought this would be a good area for people to share information (personal experiences, articles, etc.) and ask questions.
4 months ago
