[Pitlove]

Nice updates guys!

C4C- Glad they are liking the new litter box and the WEF! Praying they don’t change WEF either as thats exactly what my little girl is on and she’s very happy with it right now.

JM- Oh no! Sorry to hear about Jake. So thankful we really don’t have skunks around here, cuz my boy would be the first to get hit! However, I’m glad to see you haven’t completely given up on the raw. Keep at it girl!

I guess my update is I’m convinced that Dani can not have beef now. I gave her a sample of Primal Beef & Salmon freeze dried raw for a little treat and she threw up instantly. It definitely has nothing to do with the quality of the food. So that’s it, I’m staying away from anything beef for her.

She is on Whole Earth Farms like C4C’s kitties, so I’m in the same boat with the whole Purina thing. I’m keeping her to just one food now with different proteins since I find her poop is a lot better when she’s on one food.

Also, did anyone see the new Purely FF food they came out with? No by-products etc? I was reading reviews for it and apparently it replaced their FF Appetizers line (which I’m assuming had by-products) and people are pissed lol. They want the old formula back.

[Pitlove]

Wow, really sorry to hear that all that didn’t work out. During the time that I was fighting with my dog for him to eat I tried a lot of ways of preparing his food. First I tried kibble on the bottom of the bowl with some canned on top- that didn’t work. Then I tried using my hands and mixing the kibble and canned together- didn’t work either he hated it. Then I tried feeding the kibble first and his reward for eating the kibble was a little canned- that kinda worked but there were times where he still didn’t eat. So, I thought to myself that maybe he has an issue with the texture that these combinations created so I tried canned on the bottom of the bowl with dry on top- he ate it, no issue at all! I’ve continued to do that for a long time until we stumbled on Nature’s Logic and he was willing to eat it without canned at all! Now he loves food so much that I can use canned food as a topper again and have his dry on the bottom and it saves me money and he eats no issue.

Really glad your husband is willing to let you try homecooked meals though. Thats great. Another thing to look into would be a commercial raw company like Darwin’s, so you don’t have to worry about the food being complete and balanced because it already is. With Darwin’s they do autoshipping, but you can cancel or change the order at any time and they start you off with a starter pack for 14.95$ including the shipping. If you want to go the way of making your own meals, I would highly recommend working with a veterinary nutritionist to come up with meals that would be complete and balanced. It can risk your dogs health if you feed an unbalanced raw/homecooked diet even more so than feeding a low quality kibble.

[Madelon H]

Susan – thanks. I belong to the EPI4DOGS.COM group – they are awesome! Did/does your dog have EPI? I know they say you don’t have to have a low fat diet for EPI anymore – BUT here’s my thinking based on my personal experience. Doc, my GSD, was diagnosed at 3 months old with SIBO but not EPI (pancreas just had not completely atrophied at that time) – they did the cTLI test then and TLI was 16 B12 was 800+ Folate >24 – he had the chronic diarrhea with pale foul smelling cow patties – so he was on metronidazole and put on the Royal Canin Gastro Low Fat Dry Kibble – after 2 1/2 months all was well and I transitioned him to Royal Canin GSD Puppy – he was great – got to 95lbs until March 2015 when he started losing weight – no diarrhea – finally he had lost about 10lbs and despite my telling my vet something was wrong he said he was fine – then he started diarrhea and eating poop – I demanded another cTLI test – positive for EPI and SIBO – TLI < .4; B12 400; Folate >24. He was put on the can RC Gastro – WAY to expensive – once we started enzymes and B12 with Intrinsic Factor I switched him to TOTW Pacific Stream – poops got better but not consistent – then DESPITE being on flea/tick and heartworm meds his entire life he got tapeworms and coccidia (he had coccidia really bad as a pup) – he’s also been very itchy lately. SO my thinking after doing much research is that although they say you don’t need to restrict fat for an EPI dog I’m thinking you may need to restrict fat for SIBO – thoughts? The RC Gastro dry kibble is 5% fat and 3.6% fiber. I’m not opposed to prescription diet food if nothing else will work but I’m $4000 into this disease already and was hoping to find a comparable OTC food that won’t break my bank. I was looking at Natural Balance Limited Ingredient food that has 10% fat – do you think that it’s worth trying? I was also wondering about mixing canned food and kibble food since it appears most can food has less fat than the kibble?
Thanks so much!

[Eileen S]

I religiously read ingredient lists on pet foods and treats. I’ve tried keeping up with home cooking, but really, supplementation is all I’m good for. My most recent ingredient debacle is finding stuff WITHOUT Rosemary! No oil or herbal inclusion as it can set off more seizures in a dog already suffering from seizures! More pet products are going to Rosemary as a preservative. They were using Vitamin E & Tocopherols & I’m not all that thrilled with canola oils as the fat content. But I do digress. It is hard on my vision to squint the print at the stores & see all the ingredients. Sometimes I still miss things, come home in better light only to find the suspect ingredients after buying a product I cannot use. On line, the frequency of not listing ALL ingredients is rampant. Then there is the problem of finding the parent company and the actual manufacturing location of the parent company for the products. Take for instance the Whimzees or Whimz people, Paragon Products. My dogs love the chewies. But every listing of their products has them made in Holland. They are then distributed from Wilmington, DE, the UK, Holland, or other places. Distribution: what exactly does that mean? The ingredients listed on my box look fine, none of the additives I have to currently watch for. Who is Paragon Pet Products? I stopped feeding grains when wheat was the big issue in that decision when China added melamine to make wheat cheaper by the ton. And oh by the way, kill off animals (dogs primarily) and their own people, who ate products with that in it. Then what did we do with the tainted dog food? Rumor has it we gave it to our cattle! One, cattle don’t need meat by products. Two, that puts the melamine into our food chain, doesn’t it? I could really use a filter that would work on with a search engine on food ingredients. I may be wishing for the impossible. Because, as I have experienced, same company has a range of treats for example. Depending on the flavor or consistency (hard versus soft) any will have rosemary as a preservative and several will not , as least not have it listed. So what is a pet parent to do?

[crazy4cats]

Pitlove-
You’re welcome! Yes, I always have it in fridge for two days. I feed them fresh foods or frozen raw on their kibble for the afternoon meal and canned for morning meals. I have kept it just fine for three days when I forget there is already one open in the fridge with no issues. Lol! Shoot, sometimes my human family eats left overs that are in there much longer than that! You’ll get your routine figured out.

[Kona]

Hi all. I have been transitioning my dog (11 years old) to raw food over the past month. I have been feeding raw for breakfast and kibble at dinner, mainly because of the costs. However, she’s doing so well on the raw I’ve decided to suck it up and go completely raw (if it means I have to eat out less then that’s what I have to do). I have her on AllProvide turkey and beef. I have a couple questions and was hoping some of the more experienced raw feeders could help:

1) AllProvide packages in 16oz pouches. According to her “ideal” weight (she’s 75 lbs now but I’d like to see her down to 68-70 lbs) the food chart says she should have 22 oz per day. I’d like to keep her on one pouch per day. Any ideas on how I can supplement the additional 6 oz? I feed raw goat’s milk so there are some calories there. She also gets a few “treats” – cucumbers, sweet potato biscuits, but maybe only 100-150 calories. I bought some grass-fed beef organs – liver, kidney, heart. Should I add some of this to her food (AllProvide already includes these though in the food so I wasn’t sure if that would be too much)? Anything else I can add to reach her 22 oz?

2) She seems to digest it too quickly, which on one hand is good since i know she’s digesting it better than kibble but the problem is by late afternoon she will throw up a little bile (ever since she was a puppy this happens whenever her stomach is empty for too long). I’ve been having to put a little kibble in her kong when i leave for work to prevent this. I’d hate to keep adding kibble to her diet since I’ll be going completely raw. Anything I can add or suggestions?

Thanks!

[Jonathan S]

There are lots of great recipes out there… here’s a great video I found on it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o_IOwiCN2I What these people do for their pups is amazing. I don’t have quite that capacity.

Most experts will tell you to feed raw separate from kibble because of the time it takes to digest (kibble burns faster than raw). I found with my dogs when I feed the raw separate from the kibble, they get very sick… one of my pups vomited within two hours of me feeding straight raw. I went back to serving raw at the same time as kibble and they were right as rain… I think the raw was just too rich for them.

I don’t see anything wrong with just feeding ground meat, but remember that there are other nutrients they need that they won’t get there alone. Just look at the ingredients on this website and where dogfoodadvisor.com praises 5 star foods for their good ingredients, and more importantly WHY they praise them. Personally, since getting on this site I’ve been reading reviews and where possible I’ve been including those beneficial ingredients in my mix. Currently my recipe is 2 lbs ground rabbit with bone(expensive!), 2lbs ground chicken or turkey, 1 pound ground lamb, 1.5 pounds chicken hearts/gizzards, 1 pound of reconstituted dehydrated lamb green tripe, 4 raw eggs, 2 cups of blueberries, two apples shredded, three carrots, some small peas, half a mango, mix of greens (I use Green Juju or the local equivalent), hemp seed hearts, pumpkin puree, coconut oil, turmeric. I also play around with some other additives like Firm Up just to see how they perform. Anything not already ground goes through the food processor to break it up for the pups to digest. That recipe gets me approximately 20 x 12oz containers which is enough for 10 days for both my dogs. No, it’s not cheap.

I like feeding half raw to half kibble because the kibble gives me a safety net in case I’m missing some vital piece of nutrition. As I continue to refine my mix, I’m hoping to change to 75% raw to 25% kibble. Going to wait until after their next vet visit to make sure I’m on the right track.

You can do it cheaper than I do. Just find the things your dog likes (apple slices, carrots, blueberries) and throw them in their with the meat… see how he does. The best recommendations for portion size I have seen is 2 – 4% of the dog’s body weight in raw per day if you’re feeding 100% raw. If you’re going to do half and half, cut the amount of kibble you’re feeding in half, then cut the amount of recommended raw in half. For me, that comes out to 1 cup of raw and 1 cup of kibble per day, per dog. I feed them twice a day.

Also, don’t feed raw raw if your dog is a grazer… they need to finish it when you put it out. Don’t want raw meat sitting around!

[losul]

Hi Red. I do think it’s important to use caution with these things. Even if a vet were to give instructions to give antacids/inhibitors to my dog (or even a Doctor to me) on any kind of regular basis, I would be asking questions and investigating, is it acid reflux? what is causing it, how do I get to he root of the problem, and not just treat symptoms, what could/would be the consequences, could it actually be caused by low stomach acid, etc..
———–
Hi Sue, I’m sorry couldn’t respond sooner, my time is limited lately, and having internet troubles on top of that.. I don’t find much about lymphocytic gastritis in dogs, or at least searching those 2 particular words alone. In humans, “Lymphocytic gastritis is a rare gastritis primarily diagnosed by the surgical pathologist. There is a peculiar infiltration of benign lymphocytes into the glands and surface mucosa. It may be associated with celiac disease and Helicobacter infection of the stomach. There are case reports of clearing of the disease by treatment for Helicobacter infection in the stomach.”

http://www.thedoctorsdoctor.com/diseases/stomach_lymphocytic_gastritis.htm

In dogs, most of the hits I came up as canine lymphocytic-plasmacytic gastroenteritis and is still of unknown causes(idiopathic). “Canine lymphocytic-plasmacytic gastroenteritis(LP) is one disease in a group of idiopathic, chronic intestinal diseases collectively termed inflammatory bowel disease (IBD), and is considered to be the most common cause of chronic vomiting and diarrhea in dogs. LP gastroenteritis is characterized by a diffuse infiltration of lymnphocytes and plasma cells into the lamina propria of the stomach and/or the small intestine resulting in diffuse mucosal inflammation. Lymphocytic-plasmacytic is the most prevalent form of IBD.”

https://www.addl.purdue.edu/newsletters/2007/Fall/clpg.html

Kind of a side note, and really just a curiosity, I found this study to be of interest, specially the apparent surprising resolution of the disease state, after all the numerous testing and therapies failed, and when the client was finally discouraged by no improvements, stopped all of it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1082873/

The “fundic region” would be the upper main portion of the stomach and should generally be much less acidic, especially at the beginninh process of digestion than the the lower portions. I think that would likely be why Patch’s diagnosis comments read that Helicobacter was usually more prominent in the fundic (less acidic) region.

“•The fundus, which is the main upper portion of the stomach. Fundus means
“enlargement” and refers to the rounded enlarged area at the top of the stomach.
Food gets ground, mixed, and held in the fundus. It is in the fundus that enzymatic
digestion takes place, assuming there are live enzymes present with your meals (or
if you are using digestive enzyme supplements). Although stomach acid will be
released into the fundus, IT IS ONLY AT ABOUT 30% CONCENTRATION and will not affect
enzymatic digestion. After about 40-60 minutes in the fundus, the chyme will move
on into the body of the stomach.”

“•The body, which is the large middle section of the stomach. It is a primary area
of digestion, and it is here that hydrochloric acid and pepsin begin to work full
bore, and at levels sufficient to stop most enzymatic digestion.

•The antrum, which is the last part of the stomach before the pylorus, the gate
which prevents food from entering the intestine before its time. Actually, the
major portion of digestion takes place in the antrum as food is held a long time
and parceled out to the duodenum in a very slow, methodical manner. Incidentally,
antrum means cave and pylorus means gatekeeper.”

Your Stomach, Part 1

I think there’s some REALLY good articles/summaries on that site, especially
pertaining to human digestive/gastric systems, but most of it would be relevant to dogs
also. He does deal with alternatives/naturapathic/holistic, and does also sell
supplements, I don’t necessarily agree with all he says, but I think it’s one of
the most comprehensive, complete, and easiest to understand articles/primers on
digestion I’ve seen.here is the article “your stomach, part 3” , which may most
pertain, especially to the significant importance of acid in digestion/health, but
be sure to read all parts 1,2,3. and the overview on digestion also. In fact most of the whole digestion series is a good read.

Your Stomach, Part 3

http://jonbarron.org/article/overview-digestive-system#.Va1zwGd0w5s

Digestive System

I’m not sure where the “water” would be coming from after Patch ate his raw. Not
excessive saliva? Did you add water to the raw food? Adding water would dilute his
acid production. I’m not sure if you are saying that he threw up the raw or just
water? The enzymes i think should be even more important/purposeful on cooked
foods more so than raw. What kind of enzymes are they? Just go very slow on them at first. I would think Patch’s bio-fauna is much out of whack, and needs to be re-established with good bacteria. He may have mineral/vitamin deficiencies also. I was a little surprised that tha naturpath wanted to immediately switch Patch to raw. I would be a little hesitant to go full force raw right away, knowing Patch’s condition, which is why it’s important to be upfront with the
naturopath as much as possible. Has the naturpath seen Patch, or was it just a
consult? Is it Lew Olson?

If it were me, I would take just baby steps, but I’d give the Naturpath’s advice a
fair shot, and keep her/him informed. Not make too many changes all at once, or
expect too much all at once. Build up very slowly on everything, the probiotics,
the enzymes, the cooked or raw foods.Has Patch been weaned off antacids since the
Helicobacter treatment and fairly stable most of the time with what he’s eating
now? Can you try to introduce just a snack size meal of cooked along with
appropriate small portion enzymes or maybe later raw in between those regular
meals, and just very gradually increasing while decreasing the regular? I’m not
familiar with Roo meat, how easy to digest, how much fat, saurated fats, etc. I
think in the U.S. it’s thought that lean chicken is one of the easiest proteins to
digest, along with well cooked white rice. Vets often advise this temporarily for
gastric distress (provided they don’t have a sensitivity to chicken) and it works
for many dogs. I’ve heard you say that Patch and grounded rice don’t get along? I
don’t understand what you mmean by grounded. In the U.S. white rice is milled and
has the husk, bran and germ removed, leaving virtually only the starchy interior,
it’s usually then “enriched” with some vitamins/minerals. Should be fairly easy to
digest by most dogs. Eventually though I would want to get him off all that starch,
and get him on a more balanced diet. Are you giving him any vitamins/minerals at
all?

On another note, there are a couple of U.S. vets now using fecal matter transplants
for dogs, from only verified healthy donor dogs of course. For humans, it’s
catching on a bit more now, even in a few hospitals, with very promising results from persistent or recurrent IBD, SIBO, colitis, that is usually caused by
persistent, pathogenic, and resistant overgrowths/infections.

Sue, Maybe Patch can’t be completely cured, but I believe with the determination
you’ve shown and continue to show, he WILL get better. There’s alot of people
rooting for you and Patch, I know that I’m one of those!

P.S. I might not be able to write back for a while again.

———————
Hi weezerweeks, y/w.

I understand your concerns with Bailey. Best wishes for his best health!

Let us know how the vet visit goes.

[zcRiley]

I’m truly sorry to hear about your loss. There are no words that could ever make it right but the memories will.

I’m sure you already know, canine acid reflux most often happens after your pet has eaten a meal that is very high in fat or eats too much and his/her stomach is very full (gee, sounds like me). Lesser known causes would be a post surgery symptom or hiatal hernia at birth. Could any of these pertain to Bailey? Did your vet perform an esophagoscopy? I apologize if you’ve posted details before and I didn’t read it.

I think focusing on the cause of Bailey’s irritated esophagus/stomach will overshadow the controversial Sorbitol, in which subsequently, the pup doesn’t need. If the symptoms came back after it was administered that week, it wouldn’t matter how much longer you could have given it.

[Susan]

Hi Iosul, if Patch was your dog what would you do? When Patch had Endoscope & biopsies done last December 2014 the Diagnosis said “Moderate to chronic Lymphocytic Gastritis with associated spiral bacteria infection”.. her comment was “Helicobacter are controversial pathogens in dogs & cats being present in asymptomatic animals. Where there is significant pathology in combination with characteristic clinical signs they may be significant. It is more common to see larger numbers of them in the fundic region of the stomach. This could also be a manifestation of MORE EXTENSIVE inflammatory bowel disease..

The live Probiotics the Naturopath wanted him to take make him feel sick they’re gluten &
dairy free & are kept in the fridge I read that some probiotics can make you feel sick, the Naturopath said we need to fix his gut to get his stomach pH back to 1 again but Patch
kept regurgitating the raw diet water would come back up into his mouth & he would swallow & swallow it.. how I know it was water that was coming up is he went to look in my shopping bag to see what a lady had given me & he did his regurgitating all down the side of my bag, it just happens & he hadn’t drank any water only ate his kangaroo & 2 spoons of blended veggies about 3 hours after eating the raw for breakfast, then I thought maybe the enzymes broke the raw down too quick so I tried without the enzymes & Patch felt sick & was eating grass, like the Naturopath said would happen, I asked her what will the enzymes do she said stop any nausea & help stop any bowel rumbling & diarrhea….so I stopped the raw diet enzymes & probiotic & put him back on his kibble & started to cook but he regurgitated the cooked food as well & I never gave enzymes or probiotic, the thing is he doesn’t regurgitate soaked kibble or wet tin foods, then I thought could there be too much protein in the raw & cooked diet & he cant handle all that meat Kangaroo or beef.. where the wet tin food only has 7% (30%) protein.. the kibble he’s eating has about 22% protein.. I don’t know I cant work out how to fix him…. I will photo copy the link you posted… I need to find out how to make his gut healthy again.. I’ve tried low fat greek yogurt he started his licking & licking his mouth & wanted grass..
Lew Olson said give him L-Glutamine & cabbage juice to help with the nausea..

My vet said we may never fix this problem, at least he’s not in the condition he was in when you rescued him, I said, I suppose but I want him healthy & pain free 🙁

[losul]

Weezerweeks, please use much caution about giving a dog human antacids/PPI’s/ acid , especially for any prolonged length of time, beyond occasional usage, without carefully regulated dosage, without guidance from a good vet, and without knowing the actual cause of acid reflux symptoms, if that’s even what it is (acid reflux). As said above, hypochlorhydria can cause the exact same symptoms. I cringe every time I hear of someone self medicating., and it could be creating worse problems, especially in the longer term, if the cause is low stomach acid, or even if the problem does not originate from excessive acid production.. Even, if the underlying cause were to be excessive acid production, if you cut a pill that was designed for a 160lb human in quarters and give to a 10 lb dog, that dosage seems way too much anyway. It’s too easy to intuitively assume these sort of symptoms (reflux or indigestion) stems from excessive stomach acid. It could be excess stomach acid production or refluxing for numerous reasons, but I feel that way too often it may be caused by just the opposite, probably both in dogs as in humans. If antacids are given to a dog in wrong dosage or if the dog really suffers from low stomach acid and antacids are given, it could lead to achlorydria (no stomach acid)…

I spent a great deal of time studying on this over the last year and a half or so, the “acid” reflux, GERD, hypochlorydria, achloridia, hyperchlorydria, digestion problems, etc. and how it relates to overall health/disease. It’s a complicated issue, and I’m absolutely no medical pro at all, but I think I’ve learned some good info on the subject. Good health really begins in the first part of digestion, the stomach, IMO. Most of the info available pertains to humans, but should apply to dogs as well. I’ve been wanting to write about this again for awhile now….It’s been high on my to do list… I really sympathize and feel with the folks and their dogs, the helplessness feeling and distressed feelings such as on forum threads like “dog gulping and swallowing”, and of course with Sue and her dog Patch, and anyone else’s also.

Sue, I think you’re finally probably on the right track now with your thinking, and on the right path with consulting with the Naturopath vet, I hope you continue with that. I hope you are also up front with her/him about Patch’s extensive past antacid usage, also the extensive antibiotics usage. H. Pylori thrives in lower stomach acid and will in fact even help create a less acidic atmosphere for itself via it’s large production of urease, which metabolizes in the stomach to ammonia and neutralizes stomach acid. The H pylori can also damage the mucous and the parietal cells in the stomach, which produce the hydrochloric acid and pepsin in the stomach. It does become necessary to use the antacids along with the antibiotic therapy to eradicate the h pylori. I thought this odd at first, but it turns out, I found that H. Pylori does needs hydrochloric acid in it’s metabolism, so to limit stomach acid during eradication makes sense. And of course antacids become necessary to allow time for ulcers or damaged esophagus, etc. to heal. I think you already said that Patch didn’t have ulcers or damage to his esophagus? Actually H. Pylori is very rare in the stomachs of dogs as I understand it, but other helicobacter species are more common and may be a normal inhabitant of a canine stomach.

I don’t believe there are any good tests on a dog to find out about stomach acid production. There’s a good test for humans, the Heidelburg PH capsule test, minimally invasive, although it’s not a mainstream or well known diagnostic tool, (nope most doctors will just prescribe an antacid) and it can also even measure PH in the small and large intestine.. I called them sometime back and asked if there was any in use for dogs, which I already doubted, I was told no, but that she would bring it up at the next company meeting. Humans can do some limited self testing to a certain extent, which I won’t get into, but can’t really do that with dogs, as they can’t tell exactly what they are feeling at the moment.

I’ve got whole lots of links bookmarked on this subject, when I can get to them and when I get time. For now, there’s a pretty good summary of digestion/disease issues just from the Heidelberg Medical site. I would read ALL the “learn more” topics (on the right side), including hypochlorhydria, allergies, diabetes, gastritis, asthma, dumping syndrome, hyperchlorydria, achlorydria, the medications, PPI’s, H2’s GERD, antibiotics, pyloric insufficiency, etc. Please read them all.

http://phcapsule.com/digestion/gerd-reflux/

[SkeptVet]

So if we are believers in raw diets, we should ignore most vets’ opinions on nutrition since they don’t know anything about it (and yet, somehow, we do know about nutrition even without any formal education, presumably because we’ve read some articles on the internet or some books on the subject). This includes ignoring the vast majority of board-certified veterinary nutritionists, who agree that there is no evidence supporting the claims for raw diets. They don’t know much about nutrition even though it is their specialty.(Oh, right, they are either deceived or lying because they are all pawns/shills for the pet food industry.) Yet, if a vet recommends raw then we should listen to them because obviously they do know about nutrition since they agree with us and so must be both well-informed and completely without bias or outside influences.

What this kind of discussion suggests is that the real issue is not how much vets know about nutrition but simply that we are looking only for sources of information that agree with what we already believe. The same applies to asking a “holistic vet” about vaccines. There is no reason to think such vets are better informed or know more about immunology than any others, but they must be a more reliable source of information because they agree with what you already believe.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but all opinions can be fairly and equally ignored if they don’t come with supporting evidence. And discussions about the evidence are more productive than discussions about opinions because they are less likely to degenerate into personalized and pointless debate. So far, there hasn’t been much discussion in this thread about specifics or evidence, mostly just opinion and “credentials.”

I tried to respond specifically and with evidence concerning the particular statements that “vets don’t know anything about nutrition” and that certain microorganisms in raw meat can’t be harmful to dogs. That shouldn’t be taken to mean anything more or less than what I said on those specific issues. For the record, I don’t know if raw diets have any health benefits compared with cooked fresh diets or commercial diets, and I don’t believe anyone else does either because there is no specific scientific evidence to answer that question. there are lots of theoretical arguments in both directions, and of course the usual persuasive yet utterly unreliable anecdotes, but not real data. I tend to suspect the ultimate answer will be that there is no benefit, but that’s just another opinion until there is real evidence.

[michael s]

Thanks aquariagt… This canine nutrition forum is terrible with respect to searching. I’ll try to find the thread manually and leave a comment there if I have questions.

I happen to be reading Linda Case’s “Dog Food Logic” this week, which is up to date. I know what you mean about skeptvet, but strangely enough he recommends the book. Patricia McConnell also recommends it. The book’s recommendation for LGP is only 300-350 cal/cup, and she does say it’s more about calories and calcium, but I’m finding it difficult (so far) to find so few calories in a puppy food …

… The research continues …

• This reply was modified 10 years, 8 months ago by michael s. Reason: Spelling

[aquariangt]

Kibble will only get you so far in training, you definitely want some value. Protein isn’t really the issue when it comes to LGP, its kind of old research. If you go to the canine nutrition forums, there is an excellent thread on this very topic, if you read the first few pages of links, Hound Dog Mom has done excellent in getting some really current research in there (she has Bloodhounds). Page 35 or so has a list of acceptable LGP foods, and it’s really more about the calcium

• This reply was modified 10 years, 8 months ago by aquariangt.

[Pitlove]

Hi Carlos- Congrats on your move! I just moved out of New England to the south myself last year and it has been a nice change. Hope you and your family are enjoying your new home!

To answer your question, since your boy is getting up there in age you are definitely going to want to provide him with a high protein diet if you have not being doing so already. Contemporary research (even Purina’s website says this!) shows that senior dogs have an increased need for protein, unlike what was previously thought.

Variety is the spice of life for humans and dogs alike. I’m sure you would not want to eat the same old food day in day out your whole life and your dog probably wouldn’t want to either! So yes, changing brands or even just proteins can keep your dog healthy and provide him with a nice variety in his diet. Most of us on here have a few brands that we keep in a rotational diet that we change to every bag. I’m limiting my dogs brands for the moment because he has skin problems I need to address, but I’m still trying to find 2-3 foods that have wide ranges of proteins to rotate with. Both cats and dogs also benefit from a moisture rich diet, which kibble lacks.

If your cats were free fed and ate a food high in carbs that could have contributed or even caused the diabetes. I’ve always had overweight cats, however my current cat and my dog are both very healthy weights.However, I know your cats are a moot point.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 8 months ago by Pitlove.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 8 months ago by Pitlove.

[Jonathan S]

I’m not an expert, but I have been feeding my pups raw for a few months, so take this as you will. I think it will depend on if you’re planning to feed commercial raw, or make your own. The steps I would take (making my own) are…

1. Transition the pup to a quality kibble that you’re comfortable with and watch for any reactions to different protein sources.
2. Talk to your vet. If your vet is pro raw diet you will get good direction from them. If your vet is anti-raw, you will need to either seek another vet if you are committed to this, or stop talking about food to your vet.
3. Do research. There is a TON of good information out there. It can be daunting, and some of it will scare you, but do it anyway. Look on YouTube for Dr. Karen Becker. Lot’s of good info from her.
4. Don’t back down. People will try to tell you you’re doing the wrong thing. Don’t let them frighten you off.
5. Make a plan. In your research be sure to pay attention to the side effects of going raw and of changing food. Sometimes they can scare you and send you off to your vet or make you stop feeding raw, when really it’s just a natural adjustment reaction, or a reaction to the type of protein or amount of fat you’re using. Know what you can expect to see and be ready to react accordingly. Remember, when you stop feeding raw because of a stool problem or the such, it’s like you have to start over again.
6. Experiment. Begin adding raw into your pup’s diet and see how they react. Do they take the food well? Do they seem to like it? Start adding other ingredients and see how they react. Try to add the ingredients one at a time or you will have trouble figuring out which one, if any causes a problem.
7. Once you have a successful recipe, or more than one successful recipe, start replacing the kibble with the raw… go 25% raw to 75% kibble until the pup stabilizes, then go 50% raw to 50% kibble.
8. Watch your pup’s collar size, and keep tabs on their weight. You don’t want them too skinny or too fat. Hopefully you will have a pro-raw vet that can help guide you.

For myself I’m sticking to 50% raw 50% kibble just to make sure I don’t miss something important in their nutrition. My mix is pretty good, but a good quality kibble can be a nice safety net. I’m hoping to get to the point where I can do 75% raw and 25% kibble, but I want to refine my process more before I go there.

I hope this helps!

[ELIZABETH M]

That’s okay InkedMarie, I am talking about the company fresh fetch pet food.talking I have been ordering from them for a long time and and now I can’t re order from them it says its closed for maintenance and the above conversations were all talking about the same company so I thought that maybe somebody knew what was going on.
I’m new to posting on here, so I don’t know if I even posted to the same conversation thread.

[Pitlove]

“Purines are found in high concentration in meat and meat products, especially internal organs such as liver and kidney. In general, plant-based diets are low in purines. Examples of high-purine sources include: sweetbreads, anchovies, sardines, liver, beef kidneys, brains, meat extracts (e.g., Oxo, Bovril), herring, mackerel, scallops, game meats, beer (from the yeast) and gravy.

A moderate amount of purine is also contained in beef, pork, poultry, other fish and seafood, asparagus, cauliflower, spinach, mushrooms, green peas, lentils, dried peas, beans, oatmeal, wheat bran, wheat germ, and hawthorn.

Higher levels of meat and seafood consumption are associated with an increased risk of gout, whereas a higher level of consumption of dairy products is associated with a decreased risk. Moderate intake of purine-rich vegetables or protein is not associated with an increased risk of gout.”

I guess this is why your vet is recommending vegetarian? I wasn’t aware of this about dalmations, but it sounds as though they literally can’t eat anything but plant based proteins.

What food are you feeding now?

[Mana A]

Thanks InkedMarie and Crazy4cats for the quick reply!

I looked through the first 20 or so pages of the thread but there are 87 pages! LOL. Anyway, if you are referring to the list compiled by HoundDogMom, yes I did see it but that list includes only grain free foods and Fromm’s large breed puppy is not grain free.

Would love to hear your input. And If HoundDogMom can help I would live to hear her input as well.

Belinda, I live in Denver too! Also, I want to clear something up. I believe that as long as the calcium:phos ratio is between 1.1:1 and 1.5:1 you should be fine. I don’t think it matters if it’s puppy food or adult food as long as that ratio is appropriate. Do you all agree with that?

Thank you so much for all of the expertise!!

[Alex Z]

Hey guys,

First, thanks in advance for any help.

My wife and I have been struggling to find a good food for our 3 year old lab. He has always been very sensitive to different foods, but in the past two years his allergies (itchy paws, runny eyes, ear infections, anal glands) really seemed to have gotten worse so we’ve tried several different food trials to attempt to find a food that worked for him.

We’ve already tried the following foods with no luck:
Blue Buffalo Basics Turkey & Potato
Merrick Whitefish
Wellness Core Whitefish
Zignature Duck
Wellness Complete Health Whitefish & Sweet Potato

Granted, with a few of these he got significantly worse and we did not finish a full 3-6 month trial, generally quitting after the first bag so I am not opposed to revisiting any food above as we did not know how to properly run a food trial at the time. He is an 85lbs lab, but has maintained a very healthy weight through all of this (he’s very tall).

He has been on the Wellness Complete Health Whitefish & Sweet Potato for about 3-4 months now, supplemented with probiotics and pure pumpkin as his stool was VERY loose.

I just had him in for a checkup at our vet, and they recommended trying out Hill’s Prescription Diet d/d Duck & Potato, or Royal Canin’s Veterinary Vegetarian diet. I am a little hesitant to go with either of these diets, cost set aside. Are there any other food’s you would recommend trying first? Or do you guys think one of the prescription diet is needed?

Again, any help is greatly appreciated!

[Susan]

Hi my boy suffers from acid reflux, two years I’ve been battling with new diets, ant acid meds etc & this is what I have found..
You are better of leaving him on the Pepcid instead of stopping & re starting it again, the burning acid can burn their throat, esophagus & even cause ulcers if he hasn’t already got an ulcer..the Pepcid will relieve his discomfort…
Slipperly Elm Powder is suppose to be good google how to make a slurry paste..Slippery Elm coats the throat, stomach & stops nausea, you can add about 1/4 teaspoon slippery elm powder to their meals…I’ve never tried adding with meals, I was going to try if this new diet doesn’t work.. I’ve ordered the Royal Canine Intestinal low fat kibble as much as I hate vet diets, I’ve run out of kibbles & wet tin foods.. I live Australia & low fat diets are very hard to find the weight loss diets are low in fat & are higher in fiber & you need to avoid high fiber diets I’ve read..
I add about 1/2 teaspoon of the Slippery Elm Powder in a glass & add boiling water & stir till I have a thick paste but not too thick, I put about 3mls in a syringe when it cooled…this seem to help Patch but I hate giving him any meds, herbs, supplements..
I had him on Zantac as the Zantac doesn’t interfere with the bowel like other ant acids do.. now I give liquid Mylanta 3mls in a syringe, I make about 2 syringes up & leave in the fridge, the cool Mylanta soothes the throat & stomach…
I give 3mls Mylanta at 6am 1/2-1 hour before breakfast then if I see Patch unwell or feeling sick thru the day I give another 3ml Mylanta…it taste yuk but he lets me give it to him, so it must make him feel better normally he runs when he has to take tablets & see the syringe with water but with the Mylanta he doesn’t run away..I have found the Mylanta relieves Patches acid instantly..

You need to book your boy in for an Endoscope & Biopsies to see what is happening…blood test will not show if there’s anything wrong with his stomach only his pancreas, has he had the blood test for his Pancreas? All Patches blood test came back good & he had all the symptoms of Pancreatitis again..so Patch had Endoscope & Biopsies last December his stomach looked good the vet said, no ulcers or any scaring from old ulcers, lucky he had the biopsies as well, they found the Helicobacter-Pylori infection, he was given the triple therapy antibiotics & Zantac for 3 weeks but as soon as the course was finished he had his real bad acid reflux again, so vet said keep him on the Zantac twice a day every 12 hours which I did for about 1 month then I stopped his Zantac to see if his acid reflux came back, I changed his diet again to a lower protein.. & was just giving the 1/3 Zantac 150mg tablet every morning 6 am 30mins-1 hour before food & I stopped the night Zantac & he seemed OK & if he did wake thru the night licking lips, I give Mylanta..

I cant find a real low fat wet tin food only the Royal Canine Intestinal Low Fat or the Hills I/d Low Fat GI Restore they have boiled rice & Patch can’t eat boiled rice it gives him diarrhea, he can have grounded rice in kibbles, so I soak Patches kibble & drain all the water real well when the kibble is swollen then put thru a blender & its like wet tin food but has the low fat & low protein 8%-fat & 22%-protein.. I also cook Extra lean beef ground mince made into little rissoles balls, I also buy kangaroo mince for a change & blend a carrot broccoli & celery & add with the mince & bake in the oven & hardly any fat comes out of the extra lean beef or Kangaroo mince..

I would cook then freeze little meals, a low fat meat with blended green veggies, broccoli, celery, beans, kale etc or another wet tin food where the fat is 2% & under….The Wellness Stews are 4%-fat so when converted to dry matter (Kibble) its 16.2% fat, that’s pretty high in fat… & put him back on the Pepcid if it works for him, some of the Wellness Stews have potatoes or sweet potatoes, I was looking for another recipe last night for acid reflux & it said stay away from starchy veggies, Potatoes, Legumes & sweet Potatoes & give Pumkin, Squash, Rutabaga Turnip instead.. here’s the link… http://ottawavalleydogwhisperer.blogspot.com.au/2013/12/acid-reflex-gerd-in-dogs-cats-natural.html
I’ve read Kale is good, it has Chlorophyll what is found in grass, it settles their stomach & digestive upsets.. so I’m going to try adding some blended kale to his rissoles as well..

[Cheryl F]

I just was able to contact a local butcher who supplies USDA meats for human consumption. They are also offering quite a number of items that I already feed my dogs, that I have to pay shipping/packaging for and has greatly increased the costs for me. Being able to buy fresh meat from a local butcher means that not only am I getting very good quality food, but also that I’m not being charged for additional packaging or shipping is a huge bonus. We will now be able to trim our monthly costs for feeding our animals (4 medium sized dogs) from $500./month to about $200-250./month.

For the specialty grinds such as green tripe, trachea and gullet, chicken w/organ meat, beef w/organ meat – i will still purchase from online shops.

By having a local butcher means that I can control how much food i have to store by not needing to order in bulk to offset shipping charges, and having a readily available stock local that I can drive to replenish my supply.

Sharon B – my vet’s office has several vets employed there. When I was on a business trip my husband took our puppy in for routine puppy care exam and the vet tried to scare my husband about ecoli and salmonella with the raw diet. Fact is, humans get those issues a LOT more than dogs can. Their stomachs are stronger than ours and we are more susceptible than them. Employing good hygiene and common sense is a must when handling any meat – whether it be for human or canine consumption. None of my dogs have ever gotten salmonella or ecoli from raw diet and i have ‘collectively’ been feeding this way for about 12 years.

Hope that helps.

Cheryl

[sharon b]

Inked Marie, sorry, I am in Windham NH, and Vincent, and the other Gentleman, can’t see your name, I can’t get a list of prices either. Website still being built, If you could e-mail or forward, I would greatly be appreciated @ sbmc64@yahoo.com.
Has anyone ever had a dog get really sick, or die from salmonella or e-coli? I read a thread where a man lost his 9 $ 1/2 y/o dog. I have a weak immune system and although I will glove up, I am a little concerned. Also mentioned on a thread for advice on my raw diet, For those of you that do your own grinding, how? Do you have a special grinder? My pup is going to be 150+ pounds, so this is not going to be inexpensive, but I know it’s the best for him. just trying to find the most economical way. What about hormones in store meat, does that concern anyone, or do commercial companies avoid them, or do we not know. Darwin’s did list a grass fed price list. Sorry, so many questions from the newbie.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by sharon b.

[sharon b]

I also am more confused than ever. I have another thread going on starting to feed large breeds raw. Also not only concerned about the pathogen’s that I would think if buying commercially would be at minimal risk, I would think that dogs in general would have the enzymes in their GI systems (that humans do not) to kill these serious bacteria?? But I read one article where a man lost his 9 & 1/2 y/o dog after twice taking him to the vet and the e-coli didn’t come up on routine test’s because they don’t test the GI tract.
Also of concern to me is I myself have a very weak immune system, but want what is best for my dogs, so could wear gloves, but what about where they walk, lick, one is a drooler??? Can’t control all aspects of it just with gloves. Think I will also get this book on my kindle.

[Susan]

Hi Pitlove, your vet is on the right track about the potatoes high starch diet, but she hasn’t explain it properly, I would try a hypoallergenic limited ingredient kibble without potatoes, peas, lentils, sweet potatoes etc cause what she has been eating has caused the yeasty paws, also Malaseb medicated shampoo is excellent for this.. bathed every 5-7 days, I was putting the Malaseb just on Patches paws in a empty bath & leaving it on for 5mins then rinsing off the Malaseb kills the bacteria & really helped..
here’s a link to Karen Helton Rhodes face book group called “Canine Skin Solutions group” https://www.facebook.com/groups/1563654607200747/
here is the link explaining overgrowth Malassezia from food allergies (CARF) read #4, it will explain things more..
http://www.healthyskin4dogs.com/blog/2015/6/21/why-does-my-dog-stink-7-facts-about-dog-odor-you-need-to-know
I found as soon as I put Patch on a raw elimination diet, the red paws, smelly feet, went away…this is the diet Patch was put on you need to scroll down & click on Skin Allergy diet & just pick 1 protein 2-3-veggies & 1-2- fruits, I picked broccoli, celery, carrot & apple all peeled then cut up then put thru a mini processer ..1 cup of meat & 2 spoons of the blended veggie/fruit mix.. I had to add digestive enzyme, probiotic & digestaVite Plus to balance the diet but the Naturopath said he would be Ok without the DigestaVite Plus for 1-2 months while we were doing the elimination raw diet, I wasn’t adding no organ meat yet or no bone cause of his IBD.. with yeast you need to feed green veggies, broccoli, Bok Choy, Zucchini, Celery etc & stay away from the starchy veggies if you decide to feed a raw diet … http://www.naturalanimalsolutions.com.au/natural-diet.html

[Jarrett D]

Hello,

First of all, I want to thank everyone for their contributions to this forum. I’ve read through a ton of the pages and it’s been very informative.

My wife and I got a Husky/Malamute mix, Nisa, and she is now 11 months old. Currently, she is about 70 pounds, and still growing. We’ve fed her Canidae, Merrick, and Nature’s Variety. She seems to do very well with all dog foods, but I’ve been bred to change my dogs food every 2-3 months. This leads to one of two questions:

When should I stop feeding Nisa Large Breed Puppy food?

After she is no longer in the Large Breed Puppy category, is there another list or forum that discusses Large Breed Adult Nutrition, or can she continue to eat Large Breed Puppy?

Thank you in advance!

Enjoy the holiday and be safe!

[Susan]

Hi Jen, I know what your going thru, for 2 years my boy has the same gulping fits, swollowing & swallowing, he had Endoscope & biopsies done, last December, biopsies found Moderate to chronic Lymphocytic gastritis with associated spiral bacteria infection..(Heliocobacter-Pylori) vet was surprised that his stomach had no ulcers or scaring from old ulcers & the stomach look really good, vet couldn’t get into the small bowel cause his lower pylori spincter was close & the only way to get more answers was to have Patch cut open & have more biopsies on small bowel to see what is happening, I said NO, I cant do that to him cut him open & then do what, we already have tried all the medications…. I thought once he takes all the meds for his Helicobacter & & a diet change (Vet Diet Royal Canin Gluten free Duck & Tapioca) everything will be great… when the meds were finished, he started his has swallowing & swallowing attacks again, more when he eats cooked foods or raw diet, he starts regurgitating & water comes up & then he swollows & swollows the water…I think his esophageal spincter isn’t closing properly.. I have it, its called non ulcer dyspepsia, vet said he has acid reflux & he was put on Losec cause the Zantac or Pepcid wasn’t working no more…
You know how you said he’s on the Hills Z/d so we know its not the food PLEASE PLEASE try another food, my boy didn’t get better on the Hills Z/d…..a few other people I know from a Face Book group said their dogs also didn’t do well on the Hills Z/d vet diets…. at first we thought he was doing better cause Z/d has more insoluble fiber, so it moves thru the stomach quicker, then diets with more soluble fiber but now when I look back it was probably the Ant-Acid meds that stopped his swallowing & swallowing attacks….also low fat diets help…look for a new diet that’s limited ingredient, novel protein & 1 carb “California Natural” has hypoallergenic diets, their Lamb & Rice has just 4 ingredients, http://www.californianaturalpet.com/products & see if you see any improvement & try a different ant acid maybe Zantac if you don’t want to use a Pump Proton Inhibitor (Losec or Somac) I found Somac to be better as it didn’t affect the bowel like Losec did …You keep saying you know its not the food but have you tried any other diets, I would be trying a new diet before trying any medications, I’ve learnt along the way that food seem to work the best & supplements… Lew Olson has a great face book group called K9 Nutrition & she helps & answers all post…..

Finally after Patch not getting better up & down some nights with these swallowing attacks, …I feed a Hypoallergenic gluten dairy sugar FREE Salmon & Sardine kibble that’s is 10% fat that I soak in water till its soft then drain all water very well then put thru a mini processer blender for a few seconds it comes out like wet tin food & what a difference it has made I’m not being woken up thru the night ….its not 100% we still have the odd swallowing attack (acid reflux) sometimes cause I’ve been introducing new foods to the diet, I just give 3 ml liquid Mylanta & the Mylanta seems to help & stops the swallowing & swallowing attacks….
Sometimes you need to do things yourself as vets aren’t real good with nutrition & dog foods they stick with their vet diets & think they’re great, I tried them all, Hills being the worst as it caused bad skin problems & they use chicken even though the chicken is broken down some dogs still pick up that it was once a chicken & have a reaction with the Z/d diet.. join this Face Book group, there’s a few dogs that have these swallowing attacks aswell “Dogs with Inflammatory Bowel Disorder group” Good-Luck

[Christie]

Hi everyone.

I have a 6 year old American Bulldog Mix and a 6 month old Catahoula mix. I’ve been going back and forth trying to find a quality food brand to feed them. Right now they eat Castor & Pollux Organix Adult and Organix Puppy. And they share a can of Castor & Pollux wet food once a day.

Both Petco and Petsmart have essentially rid themselves of the brand. And while I can buy online, I’m essentially looking for a food that I can feed them both.

Both Merrick Grain Free (rated on here at 5 stars) and Whole Earth Farms (rated here at 4 stars) offer dry and wet All Life Stages foods. I know Merrick owns WEF. Is there a big difference in quality between the two? There’s an approximate $15 difference in price between them and I’m trying to figure out if it’s worth it. Or it WEF is a decent brand.

My dogs aren’t happy with the C&P food. Before that they were on Ideal Balance dry (which they also didn’t want to eat). I’ve spent a lot of time transitioning from one brand to the next and I’m hoping that Merrick (or WEF) will be a quality food they will look forward to eating. I know that big brands fill their foods with ingredients dogs love to eat and sometimes it’s harder to get a dog to adapt to a higher grade food.

My mother recently adopted a puppy and the shelter gave her a bag of Purina Smart One Puppy. She gobbles it up and won’t eat anything else. I’ve already schooled her on their questionable ingredients. I fed a small amount to my very picky eating puppy and I was not surprised to find the bowl empty 1 minute later and that she was literally licking it clean. It would be easy to feed her that (my vet recommends Purina Pro Plan and says he feeds his dogs that). But I know what’s in the bag and I’ve already attempted to feed my large dog their Pro Plan Large Breed dry a year ago on the vet’s suggestion, only to find nasty meal worms crawling around inside the storage container I had the food in and my dog’s food bowl (I know this has more to do with packaging/shipping than production, but still. I’ve since read up on the brand and am not impressed.

Merrick seems to be a decent brand of food. And on paper WEF seems just as good. Both are readily available at my local Petco and online. But it Merrick brand worth the extra $15/bag over WEF?

• This topic was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by Christie.

[Jen r]

Hi Everyone, I have a 4 and 1/2 year old Boxer (Rex) who started doing this 3 months ago and even after meds would not stop. It would be about a 3 hour panic of licking and swallowing and I took him to the vet and they thought it was just an upset stomach. He was given an injection of Cerenia (the best nausea medicine made for dogs) but he episode was pretty much done by the time we got to the vet. We decided to do an endoscopy right away and found he had pretty severe inflammation of his duodenum which is the first part of the intestines right below the stomach. The GI guy was surprised with the presentation of him gulping with this inflammation being lower down in the GI Tract. He thought there would be severe esophageal disease but it was clear. We also did allergy testing to see if food was causing this. He had some bad milk and some meat allergies so he was put on prescription food called “Z/D” which is hydrolyzed food meaning that it doesn’t need to be broken down much so it is great for allergies. This is very pricey stuff. (thank god we have insurance on this boy!) He was also put on a GI steroid called budesonide to decrease the duodenum inflammation. He went through multiple blood tests checking for pancreatitis which was ruled out. He did ok for about 2 months. He had one time when he started to lick and I immediately gave him a Pepcid and it stopped. Then after the 2 month time he started up with the episodes to the 10th degree. He would panic and they would last longer and longer. I am a pharmacist so I spoke with my vet about what meds to give when these happened and we tried a concoction of things and nothing seemed to help much. They make a cerenia in tablet form so I thought once I had that then life would be great but even that didn’t work. Each time it happens I would give the cerenia, a simethicone (gas x), and Pepcid. In 2 hours it didn’t do anything, (if this was normal nausea these things would definitely work, this is why we know it is not stomach related). We ended up going to an internal medicine specialist and she did ultrasounds and said everything looked normal but also gave me a barium liquid to completely coat his stomach. She told me that she had another boxer in the same boat as us and she thinks it is something called Limbic Seizures. I guess they are a seizure that isn’t your typical thing. There is no loss of consciousness or shaking so no one would ever think of it. It occurs in the Limbic area of the brain which controls emotions and other things. If it happens it causes a spasming of the salavatory glands and this is causing them to lick their lips to swallow it back down. When doing this they suck air in too and if they throw up, it is usually very foamy in appearance. At the time when he got this we found out he had a bad UTI at the time so we waited until the urinary infection was gone thinking that maybe this was kicked up from the infection he was fighting. The specialist wanted to start the seizure meds right away but I wanted to make sure we ruled out other things first since some of the meds for seizures can cause more damage and need to always do follow up lab work for liver damage and other things. She said it was ok to wait but she didn’t think it would get better. The infection has been cleared for 2 weeks now. We also added lansoprazole (prevacid) to his daily meds and three times a day metoclopramide (an pro-motility med to keep his belly going well). We had 9 good days so we were hoping it was working and then had a bad episode but the barium seemed to help after about an hour of giving it. Then he had 4 good days and then yesterday had it start at 12pm to 2:30 again giving the cerenia, simethicone and Pepcid first, waiting an hour and then giving the barium. Barium coats everything so you can’t give meds after as they won’t be absorbed. It stopped at 2:30 but at 4:30 had a 20 minute bout that stopped on its own and then again from 6:45 to 1am. I am exhausted from this and feel so bad for him has he is in such a panic and I feel I can’t help him anymore. So we know it isn’t food things since he is on that diet to rule out any of the food issues. if it were just upset stomach the cerenia would work like a charm but doesn’t at all! So today I am trying to get a hold of the specialist and tell her she was right that we need to start the seizure meds. I should have listened earlier but with the other infection going on I didn’t want to put him on something that could hurt him without knowing. Now that is the next step. I think people don’t ever think Seizures as it doesn’t look like it but with reading all these forums with people having no other answers it seems like this is more common than I thought and people aren’t getting the right diagnosis’s from their vets as the vets don’t even see the 2 correlating. I will keep you posted as time goes on and if the meds cure him…..if so it would be a miracle!!!! Thanks for listening!

[Pitlove]

Hi Sharon- While I can’t give you a ton of advice on raw (others here can and Im sure will chim in) I do know that raw meaty bones help clean their teeth really well and are quite healthy for them.

I’ve also heard from a few people that they don’t feel that puppies in general should eat grain free however that is probably more towards dry food and not raw since raw is the ideal diet and contains no grains or carbs. Dr. Karen Becker interviewed a doctor who breeds Newfies and has all the pups on a raw diet. One of his Dam’s lived to 17 years old on raw.

Perhaps check out Darwins Pet Foods, they do raw and its already complete and balanced. Hare Today is grinds so you have to add your own vitamins etc. I’m sure others who do feed raw can give you some other sites or suppliers to look into. If your Newfie pup is still under 8 months you will need to make sure he’s getting proper calcium and phosphorus levels and make sure hes not being overfed. That will also aid in preventing skeletal disorders and overgrowth.

[sharon b]

I have one 80 pound husky and a 80 pound Newfoundland puppy that I am considering switching to raw food. I have been adding raw to their dry food mostly as we have been training and this makes the puppy eat his food and makes his bowel movements predictable and training now finally is established. They both seem to love the commercial raw I have been buying but I just can’t seem to find a good food for a decent price that suits them both. Grain free products gave the puppy diarrhea, and I refuse to give him anything with rice that has arsenic in it. I read several other post’s, one that there was a NH dealer that deliver’s a good raw for a $10 fee, need to research that further, also one that said that feeding raw requires less overall food and even better less overall waste (poops). Let me tell you this puppy is going to be about 165 pounds, and right now eats about 8-9 cups of dry and poops are giant. So any info on what is best to give them, neither is huge on activity, although the puppy will do some swimming but typically Newf’s are laid back, and the husky is 8, and her activity is fighting back the puppy. I am disabled with neck and shoulder issues so mixing this stuff myself is not what I want to do, but I can handle a little of that if needed. Any info is great.

[Anonymous]

“One thing that brought up here is the early neutering which I didn’t know , I’m reading this lab guide “Your labrador retriever puppy month by month” and the section about neutering is on 7 month stage. Well now I am very concerned that I did a mistake… can someone give me second opinion” ?

Please don’t stress about it. It sounds like you have a vet that you trust, let him advise you.
I have never been able to make it past 9 months with a male dog that I had to have neutered, as they get into trouble, going after females, humping everything that moves….and what if you have to board them? They go nuts with all the different female smells at a kennel.
Regarding females, have you ever seen a female dog that has not been altered go through a false pregnancy? Yes, it happens and it is not pretty.

These situations are stressful for dogs, my small breed male that I chose not to neuter developed testicular cancer at the age of 11 and had to be neutered late in life.

So, there are other factors to consider. Talk to your vet, they forget everyone doesn’t have a medical background, ask him to explain his rationale for procedures and diet recommendations.
Best of luck.

[Pitlove]

If my new more integrative vet recommened 18 months for a pitbull I can not imagine 7 months is appropriate for a breed that CAN get upwards of 90 lbs. There is no way a lab is done growing completely by 7 months of age so I have to disagree with that. Proper growth is a huge aspect of large/giant breed puppy health and neutering before growth plates have closed like BCnut mentioned in another thread can cause complications in his growth.

You also had a unique situation with your 11 year old. Something that this person is not going through. You also can’t think that majority of the world is waiting til 11 years old to neuter a healthy dog just for the hell of it. Obviously an older dog, like an older human being, is going to have a harder time adjusting to any surgery. Especially when they are that old. I still maintain that 7months is too young for a large breed dog.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by Pitlove.

[Udi W]

Hi all ,

thanks for the replies and info you shared. I watch basically everyday on my dog(Huston) body shape as I take a look from above and from his profile and feeling his ribs. My vet said that he is look in good condition. One thing that brought up here is the early neutering which I didn’t know , I’m reading this lab guide “Your labrador retriever puppy month by month” and the section about neutering is on 7 month stage. Well now I am very concerned that I did a mistake… can someone give me second opinion ?

for his diet and fitness ,
I carefully won’t overstress him with running and playing he gets his morning routine of 20-30 minutes of fetch game and about 3 km(1.8 mile) of walking for the entire day.
he is pretty small for his breed , today he is 8 month exactly. His weight is 24kilo(52 pounds)around 52cm (20 inch) height. For his weight and age the upper bound that is recommended by the TOTW on the dog bad is 4 cups and I give him 3 cups in 3 meals.
should I feed him with the puppy formula or switch to adult ?

[aquariangt]

I didn’t read every word here so I may be repeating, but a few things-all of which are behavior related as there is plenty of information out there regarding the health reasons:

Before 6 months is what I would consider pediatric altering, and that can cause a lot of behavior issues. You aren’t letting your dog get to any level of maturity and then messing with their hormones. This is an issue. I often find it interesting when clients come in with a rescue 2 month old, and I watch them interact with 2 month olds from breeders who are unaltered…there is absolutely a difference.

In my opinion, if you are going to alter, 2 is good, 3 is better. If you are a responsible owner and keep tabs on him (keep in mind an unaltered sexually mature male shouldn’t really be left out to roam on his own) you really are going to be fine. I also have worked with rescues and I understand their desire to curb overpopulation, but you can’t really equate that to responsible dog owners. I want to let them reach full on maturity before I even consider altering, male or female. Even comparing my current two even though Dani is 4 years younger than Liesl, she is already maturing much faster than Liesl because Liesl I believe was altered too early (I didn’t have her during her puppyhood)

[Sarah M]

Hello All,
I have two Dobermans that tend to be on the thin side (vet confirmed). They are active but not overly so. Does anyone have recommendations for putting weight on a dog? Any dog food brands or supplements that have worked for you? I’ve tried upping the amount of kibble and canned but there’s a point where it’s too much food and they get loose stools. I also tried raw but they lost weight on the recommended amounts and it became cost prohibitive.

Thank you for taking the time to read my question!
Sarah

[Miss Koa]

Good morning! Thank you Aimee and C4D for taking the time out to reply! It is pretty overwhelming… Interesting study regarding the vacuum contents. I had no idea! So my fear isn’t THAT irrational then. Lol! But yeah, I’m trying to figure out if this is right for me or not. I appreciate any input for and against raw feeding…I rather be well informed than just go into it thinking “people say it’s best, so it must be true” kind of thing. Thank you C4D for the links! I have heard about the sponge thing and was told to throw them in the dishwasher once in a while, but I like your idea of nuking them for two minutes. Thanks for the tip!
I am looking at recipes and nutritional information and feel overwhelmed a bit. My husband is one of those people who figures all they need is meat and sometimes some organs. He’s very stubborn. >:(
Also, I am in Canada, so I don’t know if I can find the same brands of commercial raw dog food here. Do you order online or do they sell them at pet stores or? Chicken and meat in general is expensive here, but we also want what’s best for our dog. 🙂 Thank you again for all your input! So much to read, so much to learn! 🙂

[zuponicafe]

I was hoping to get some opinions on what age is best to neuter a large breed. I’ve searched thru this site & can not find this as a topic thread (if it is, I apologize for being redundant )
There are a zillion things about this on Google tho, so now it’s very confusing!
Everyone here seems pretty good at sourcing info so I thought I’d ask, even though it is not a direct dog food question.
Also, at what age should the calcium be less of a concern? My Loki is an almost 7 months old mixed breed intact male who really digs his rotational diet, but I was wondering when I could open more options.
Thanks everyone for this awesome resource!

[Lucia P]

I am new in the forum and a new owner of an 11 months old english golden retriever. This site is great source and there is a lot of info to digest. I don’t even know how to start with all this. I feel overwhelm with all the information.
I trying to figure out what is the best food for my puppy. I had the HDM’s list but still I don’t know how to start editing and deciding for options since all of them have good calcium and calories %s.
He was giving TOTW for a while but his stools got loose, them he was been feed with WHole Paws from Whole Food Market and he stopped eating. He used to love to eat and couldn’t wait to have his food in his plate but now, after he was 9 moths old his vet recommended to change his food from puppy to an adult food. My sister was the initial owner and she was so busy that never paid any attention of how to feed properly Blue (his name). She never made a transition, one night he had TOTW for a puppy and nexzt day he had food for adult. The first days were fine, he ate normal and his stools were loose, them he stopped eating after the fifth day of the new food and my sister changed the food and it has never been the same. He has food twice a day but in the morning he wouldn’t eat much or at all and them at night starving he will eat some. Now I have the dog with me and I want to do my best. I am new in the dog’s word and Im trying to educate myself.
Please, any help with recommendation of a great food for a Golden retriever, 11 months old would be much appreciated. In the HDM’s list are many 5 stars brands, how can I decide which ones?
I was thinking Blue was a picky eater and had a sensitive stomach but now reading this forum I realize that it is normal that he had loose stools since my sister hasn’t being consistent with the food, please help. I want to choose a couple of the 5 star rating food to alternate. Reading reviews the Earthborn Holistic sounds fine and The Honest Kitchen too. But to be honest also many others does. I don’t know what is the difference and all of them qualify in terms of nutrition. I have been with him for a week now and he is having California Natural which I don’t see in the HDM list. I didn’t think he like it because he wasn’t eating much and the Pet store recommended me to mix one pattie of Stella and Chewy’s Dandy lamb (because they were very yummy) and he will probably eat his food with it. He does but he tries to eat only the pattie and leave in the plate the rest of the food. Other Pet store close by told me that Health Extension was also a good option since he was picky eater. I don’t see this one either in the HDM list. Luckily he is fine so far and when he went to the vet last time, everything was fine. His hair is not shiny and he does shed a lot.
I know we can do much better than this. Please advice!

[Nicole O]

These posts have been extremely informative and I am hoping someone will have some advice for me.

History: feb2015 my pup was diagnosed with a UTI, was given antibiotics, and after completion of the antibiotics continued to urinate blood. 2nd visit the vet did an X-ray. My poor girl had her entire bladder filled with stones varying in size from a grape seed to the size of a lychee. She had surgery to remove the stones and was placed on hills C/D dry mixed with a little hills c/d wet. Everything went back to normal but FIVE MONTHS LATER she began to have diarrhea with blood in her stool. Again, I rushed her to the vet. He placed her on antibiotics and probiotics + a chicken/rice/cottage cheese/pumpkin diet for 7 days. After the antibiotics and the 7 day food change, we started to incorporate the C/D food in to transition her back. 5 days later she began to diarrhea with blood again. Went back to the vet. Did another X-ray (thank goodness the X-ray looked good). But now he is saying she’s having an adverse reaction to the hills C/D. He has now put her on Royal Canin SO dry. There is no more diarrhea, but she is also only having a bowel movement once a day.
After reading all of your posts, I don’t know what I should do. We haven’t been adding water or wet food to her dry, but will definitely start that. But knowing that this super expensive food is mostly fillers has me a little uneasy.
Any advice or suggestions?

[Maureen A M]

That’s my question. I refuse to go to Walmart after an embarrassing incident a few years ago that turned out to be their fault. No apologies from them, but I won’t spend my money there. Looks like almost every comment I read stated that they bought their dog food from Walmart. Any other place to buy dog food and is there a very short list of good inexpensive canned dog food? I printed out the four star food and don’t even want to see how many more there are on the five and three stars. I need INEXPENSIVE good canned dog food. Maybe it doesn’t exist and I’ll just have to keep feeding my dogs the crummy Pedigree. I”d appreciate a few suggestions–just a few please;-)

Thanks so much

Maureen

[Anonymous]

As you can see by using the search engine (bladder stones) and checking the various posts and threads at this site. The most important thing you can do is increase water intake, add water to all meals, 3 or 4 small meals per day instead of 1 or 2.
Offer frequent bathroom breaks, opportunities to urinate, observe for normal flow/amount/stream. Keep the bladder flushed to avoid stagnant conditions conductive to stone formation.
Otherwise I would defer to your vet regarding diet and supplement choices, at least till the dog has been stable for a while….then discuss changes with the vet.
Some types of bladder stones tend to recur, there is a genetic component to consider.

PS: Wysong has a prescription food, ask your vet if it would be appropriate….if you like the ingredients better http://www.wysong.net/veterinarian/

[chris]

Great Pitlove 🙂

In my other thread I had mentioned I was working on buying a bag of Orijen to try out. I found out non of my local pet stores sell it and nor can they get it in from there distributor apparently. I was thinking of just ordering it offline, can anyone recommend a place online that is decent and cheap? I tried chewy, but to me amazon has it cheaper then them. Chewy always seems to be more expensive.

[crazy4cats]

Jeanenne-
Sorry to hear about your situation. I have only experienced crystals with one of my cats and it was a frightening experience. He had a blockage and spent three days at an emergency clinic. Luckily he survived. I did feed him the Rx food afterwards and slowly weaned him off over an eight month period. I was so worried it would happen again.

Sounds like the vet is recommending the Royal Canin SO partly due to the fact that they are not sure if they are struvite, oxalate, or another type of stones yet. Royal Canin helps prevent both as it is lower in magnesium and has ingredients that promote urination. If they are struvite crystals, most often Hill’s c/d or s/d is recommended due to it’s ability to dissolve the crystals by making the pH more acidic. Oxalate type cannot be dissolved. They need to either be flushed out or surgically removed. Either way, more moisture and opportunities to urinate are very important to keep the crystals flushed out of the urinary tract.

Honestly, reading that you regularly feed Beneful, I think that the Royal Canin is a step up anyway. In my opinion, you can still give your dog the fruit and vegetable treats as long as you keep them to 20% or less of his diet. I have read a ton about crystals, but admittedly mostly the feline variety. But, one of the biggest factors that they are learning is that they are often brought on by stress or anxiety for cats. I would venture to guess that there could be some correlation in dogs as well. You mentioned that you just moved and that could have brought on some stress. Our pets don’t like too many changes in their routines. My cat had his emergency right after we got back from vacation. I don’t think my son was very good at keeping him on his routine and he had some separation anxiety.

After the stones are analyzed and you know what you are dealing with, maybe you could talk to your vet about being referred to a vet nutritionist. There is also a website called Balance IT, that helps people with pets that have health conditions formulate a specialized diet. Your vet might not know that you are willing to take on that task.

In the mean time, I would try to get your dog to eat the Royal Canin. Preferably the canned if you can. Increase the water intake and potty breaks. And, if possible, maybe you could increase to feeding three times per day. That is another change that I made that seems to be helping. Three smaller meals rather than two. That helps to keep their pH levels more consistent.

I wish you well!

[Jeaneene S]

I really wanted to put this in the “Struvite Crystals” thread – but for some reason that particular page always shows me as *not* logged in, even when I log in from within that thread.

Anyway, I could use some help. I have a 10 1/2 year old male Siberian Husky who has – his entire life – been on Beneful dry dog food and never had any health problems AT ALL. At one point I tried to change to the Blue Wilderness (thinking it might be better for them), but he and my 10 1/2 year old female Husky had the worst diarrhea I’ve ever seen, so it was back to the Beneful kibble. (I’ve always heard dry kibble is best for dental health, which is why that’s all I’ve ever used)

Now, this past February my big boy had what appeared to be an awful UTI. So the next day, I got a good urine catch (looked super cloudy, but just yellow) and took it and him to the vet. Vet found no crystals but lots of blood (at the microscopic level) in his urine, and did an xray, but didn’t find anything wrong. She put him on antibiotics and it was gone.

On May 1 we moved to a new house, and got a new vet – had all the dogs’ files brought to the new vet (I brought them myself so I knew they wouldn’t get lost). Then, on Memorial Day, I noticed he looked like he was having a hard time urinating again and to my horror it looked as if he was even peeing blood. Immediately called the new vet and explained what it *appeared* to be; she said that even though they were closed, she would call in an rx for Amoxicillin for him. No more than a few days of being off the antibiotics, and we started having problems AGAIN (thankfully not peeing blood this time). So, hubby took him to the Vet this past Monday and with a different kind of xray, she found 1 stone the size of a quarter, 3 stones the size of a nickel, and about 15 smaller ones. Needless to say my big boy went in for surgery yesterday morning (I am picking him up today).

Now the vet is telling me that I have to put him on the Royal Canin SO food (which she has already said he’s been turning his nose up at the vet’s), and the only treats he can have is if I take the Royal Canin SO canned food, cut it up in to squares and bake them into “treats”. We’re talking about a dog who is used to his mommy throwing a steak on the grill to mix in with his food (well, him and the other 3 girl dogs in the house) … getting bell peppers, apples and other fruits/veggies as treats, having watered-down applesauce popsicles, etc. Now she’s saying he can never have any of this ever again AND I have to give him this food that appears to me to be very poor quality and that he doesn’t like?! I’m having a very hard time accepting this.

I asked the vet at the Petsmart (where I am having to get the food) for a second opinion – and oddly enough – he seconded that opinion. How do I tell his regular vet that I don’t approve of this dog food, and that I’d LIKE to try a more vitamin-based/holistic approach as well as make his food for him which I feel would be better quality – not to mention cheaper – and where I can add the necessary added vitamins and minerals and would still prevent any further bladder stone issues.

Should trust both his new vet and the Banfield vet at Petsmart (his previous vet – when I called her last week also said he may have to go on a special diet for the remainder of his life too, so that makes three)? I’m willing to make his food, give him the supplements, test his urine … ANYTHING! Or am I just being unreasonable? And would it be “wrong” to go against the vet and do what I *think* is right?

• This topic was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by Jeaneene S.

[Dori]

I have three spayed dogs. There has never been even the slightest disagreement amongst the three. They are each others BFF’s. They pal around together all day long and cuddle up together on the couches and insist on squeezing in on the various dog beds together even though there are several in every room of the house. They chase each other, wrestle (never ever has it turned into a fight), play tug….funny to watch all three playing tug together), chase toys always allowing who ever gets it first to keep it. They don’t steal each other’s food or treats. Two, my younger girls (6 years old next week) also have been playing their version of hide n seek since they were only weeks old. My opinion, and it’s just that, my opinion is that a lot has to do with the energy in your home to begin with. My home is calm and stress free (as much as can be anyway) and the energy has been commented on by a lot of people that come inside our home.

Also, spaying them never caused any differences in them be it metabolism, incontinence, personality or whatever. They remained the same as before the spays. Perhaps not all veterinary surgeons are the same.

Your family, human and fur, are just beautiful. Is there a possibility that you keep both a male and a female?

One more edit: The three girls, two almost 6 years old and one almost 16 years old are the the sweetest most affectionate with each other and even more so with my husband and I. Even if one of us leaves a room for a moment they follow us around. Hubby calls me the Pied Piper. As I was about to say, even if I leave the room for a moment they follow me. If I go out to get the mail or put out the garbage and come back they act like I’ve been gone for months. They’re a huggie kissie little group. Just like their human parents? The three love to snuggle up on us whether we’re sitting reading, watching t.v. or in bed.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by Dori.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by Dori.

[aquariangt]

I personally think leaving both males and females but especially females intact for a long time is best for developmental reasons. There are MANY health reasons both ways with a ton of research to read, but from a mental development standpoint, I wait at least three years for dogs I get from breeders, and I don’t do conformation-just performance.

2 intact females can be fine if they mesh well. Less likely to fight than a spayed female, and less likely to have a power struggle than two intact males. Intact male and female-you need to employ some management for unwanted pregnancies, but can be very compatible from a personality standpoint

[jakes mom]

I doubt it’s a health issue, really blame the food but don’t know what to do about it. Another person suggested it may be the cat “detoxing”, which I thought about, but I didn’t think it would last that long. Here’s the dilemma, I’ve already postponed the next delivery but now I don’t know whether to cancel, or get the delivery and try longer with some probiotics maybe, or forget Darwin’s and try another brand. Frustrating.

[Susan]

Hi, I saw a Naturopath 1 month ago as my boy has Skin problems & IBD from food/ allergies, Patch was put on Kangaroo mince 1 x broccoli head 2 x carrots 5 x celery sticks 1 x apple peeled, cut up then put thru a blender cause dogs cant digest raw veggies, so you need to blended & stopped just before the veggies become a pulp, then to 1 kilo mince, I added just 2-3 heap spoon of the blended veggies/fruit mix, I froze the rest of blended veggie/fruit mix into 3 spoon section & just took out & put in fridge when needed to add to the raw roo mince, I’m feeding beef mince now aswell.. roo for breakfast & beef for dinner….The naturopath has started Patch on an elimination diet & I haven’t added anything new in the diet yet just started another protein beef, I had to picked 1 protein kangaroo & 3-4 veggies & 2 fruits, less is best to start with, Patch had to stay on this diet for 1 month then I can add a new veggie & fruit.. I haven’t made another appointment yet, his smelly yeasty skin & red paws cleared up within 3 days of starting this raw elimination diet.. I also bath in Malaseb medicated shampoo as soon as he itches & started to smell, I haven’t needed to bath him for 1 month, Patch was having a bath every 5-7 days before

Do not feed potatoes, sweet potatoes, pumkin, peas, & bananas they’re starchy veggies & fruit can cause itchy yeasty skin, my boy gets hive like lumps from potatoes & diarrhea, itchy ears & skin from sweet potatoes pumkin & banana… also try & stick with green veggies, broccoli, beans, celery, bok choy, zucchini etc ..I also added a digestive enzyme 1/2 capsule with breakfast the other 1/2 capsule with dinner ….Digestive enzymes help with allergies food/seasonal & yeast problems & strengthen their immune please read- http://www.natural-dog-health-remedies.com/enzymes-for-dogs.html ….. stop everything & start again here’s the raw diet scroll down to bottom & click on “skin allergy diet”- http://www.naturalanimalsolutions.com.au/natural-diet.html

[scottNY]

Thanks, C4C and LM. My friend is feeling kind of doomy and gloomy at the prospect of having to put his best friend through more painful [and expensive!] surgeries down the road. I am trying to help get him some more ideas and, hopefully, a more positive outlook. I did read that article you mentioned above, C4C, and although informative about cystine stones, it doesn’t talk much about day to day management in terms of food, good treats to use, etc. This is the type of advice I am hoping to get here from the good, animal loving people in this community.

LM, some good advice, too, thanks. His stone pathology showed all were 100% cystine, but I think the specialist is a good idea if my friend can afford it.

Thanks again!