[Shihtzumom20]

switched up the whole food supplement a bit, now its spirulina powder, turmeric powder and alfalfa leaf powder, I ordered all my supplements from swansons and really liked it! I hope they get it shipped ok! I should get it in a couple weeks and then can start feeding raw!

[Shihtzumom20]

Hello Everyone,
So I have decided to take the plunge and make homemade raw for Dawsons pm meal! He will still get ziwipeak in the morning, for a couple reasons one its convenient mornings tend to be pretty busy! And I like their quality of meats so I think it is important Dawson gets it. He is getting the lamb variety so I think I will mostly use chicken for his dinner, but I may switch it up for beef every now and again as a treat.
Here is what my menu looks like, HDM could you take time to check how balanced it is I would greatly appreciate it!
So every am Dawson gets ziwipeak air-dried lamb. 1 ounce
pm- (3 ounces totatl) 90%-95% lean ground chicken, 200mg calcium citrate, ¼ tsp Carlson Cod Liver Oil, ½ capsule vitamin E, ½ tsp of organic wheatgrass powder+ organic kelp powder+ organic turmeric powder (mixed together in equal parts), Raw multiple Glandular supplement
*NOTE* Every 4 days Dawson consumes 1 pound of meat. On the 5th day he will get an rmb, either chicken wing with no skin (want to keep the fat fairly minimal) or beef/pork rib equaling three ounces.
Every pm meal for supplements he will get his (minimal lol) whole food supplement, and the calcium citrate but NOT on rmb night. Only 2x per week he will get 1/2 capsule vit E, and twice every 4 days he will get 1/4 tsp Carlson cod Liver oil.
I wasnt sure if I should include some liver/organ in his meal since he gets the ziwipeak in the morning and it has organs, I was hoping the raw glandular supplement would take care of that? I was also unsure what I should get for the chicken, I dont want a lot of fat since Shih tzu’s are prone to obesity and we are heading into fall/winter lol! I decided to use the cod liver oil for his vitamin d for now till I get used to it, but then I may try to give more variety using keifer, raw eggs etc.
I also want to add canned trippett, and 1/4 tin of sardines in the four day period. I think by using both the cod liver oil and sardines he would meet his omega 3 requirements and not need krill oil. But if thats wrong I will get the krill oil too! I want to take it anyways so I will have it on hand. I cant access the canned tripett website today. My computer wont let me into it, could you tell me how much and when I should I add it in?
Well how did I do? Please let me know if anything is in excess, missing or unnecessary!

[InkedMarie]

Human supplements are much more regulated than animal ones.

[weezerweeks]

I was adding raw fruits and veggies when he was in dry but his PH was8.5 with crystals so I switched to canned and the vet told me not to add to this. His PH is still 8.5 but no crystals.should I try whole food supplements? I want his PH to get lower!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Synthetic supplements (vitamins/minerals) aren’t necessary when feeding a balanced commercial food however things like probiotics, enzymes, essential fatty acids and super foods are always beneficial. I would give coconut oil at the rate of up to 1/2 tsp. per 10 lbs. (you can give less as well). Nature’s Logic makes one of my favorite pre-made whole food supplements, it contains several supper foods (such as kelp and alfalfa) in addition to nutrient-dense fruits and vegetables and probiotics and enzymes. I actually make my own super food supplements, I find it’s cheaper this way. I buy the ingredients I want in large packages from Swanson Vitamins or Starwest Botanicals and combine them. I generally do something like equal parts kelp, spirulina, wheatgrass, alfalfa and bee pollen but I’ll sometimes substitute other ingredients for variety such as chlorella, barley grass, tart cherry, etc. If you use a pre-mixed whole food supplement designed for dogs there will be dosing instructions on the package. For my homemade supplement I usually do around 2 tsp. per dog (my dogs are 68 – 75 lbs.). There’s generally little concern with “overdosing” when feeding whole food supplements – especially if using a variety of ingredients in small doses.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 7 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[theBCnut]

Superfoods are things like kelp, alfalfa, berries. They have nutrients that are not required to be added back to dog food and in fact they are utilized on such a small scale that they aren’t sure how much of what is needed. They are also full of antioxidants.

[weezerweeks]

What is a dose of super foods?He has elevated lipase so I’m using the digestive enzyme from mercola that u suggested weeks ago. I also use Nordic natural fish oil everyday.His crystals are gone since I switched to canned an I even add extra water. Water is the key to sturvites.

[theBCnut]

Are you seeing any problems? I would add a dose of superfoods, and fresh fish oils.

[weezerweeks]

I have a 5 yr. old yorkie. He’s on canned merrick dog food. My vet says he doesn’t need anything added to his food but I disagree(wish there was a holistic vet near me)I give him fish oil,digestive enzyme because of high lipase,probiotic. I have been reading about coconut oil. Would he benefit from this? What supplements in ur opinion should I give him and how often. I know his food has some supplements but don’t know if they have enough. My vet says when u add to his food it changes the nutritional value. Advice please. U people know more than my vet about nutrition.

[theBCnut]

I started out using Mercola products and I really like them, but I am having as good results on Swansons, and I really like keeping a little of my money in my pocket. There isn’t anything in enzymes and probiotics that should be a problem for dogs. You do have to be careful with green supplements though. Many of the human ones have green tea or some other caffeine containing ingredient, which is a no no for dogs.

[pacer1978]

It seems that both of you recommended Swanson’s brand for Probiotic and Enzymes. I’m also thinking of trying a green food of some sort. I guess I’m still a little concerned with going to human supplements since I know there are some ingredients out there that are toxic to pets and I don’t know all of them. If I add the three below supplements, these should be helpful, correct? I can finish up the Dasuquin and Nordic Naturals supplements (designed for pets) before trying the below options. What are your thoughts? Also, if they have been on Dasuquin and it seems to agree with them (no joint issues), should I just keep them on that? The only issue is cost…they are fairly expensive to give to my three dogs. Thanks again!!

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ultra-spirulina-il-4-natural-blue-green-algae-6-phycocyanin-500-mg-180-caps

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-premium-digestive-enzymes-180-tabs

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-premium-glucosamine-chondroitin-msm-500-400-200-mg-240-tabs

[KatB]

Hi!
So, have been reading a lot about dog foods and various kinds, as well as dietary supplements for my two fur babies. I am looking for some help and suggestions from others who may be experiencing similar issues. So a little background first…..

I have two labs, a male yellow that is 6 going on 7, and a female black who is 4 going on 5. They are pretty healthy I am happy to say! My boy the yellow though, has sensitive skin and has been an itchy boy for most of his life. This past year, he was bitten by something in the back yard that gave him hives and an allergic reaction, treated by benedryl. He has also developed a skin infection on the underside of his chin twice this year. Baby girl the black does not have the skin problems he seems to have, however she got a a bacterial infection on her tummy twice this year. They have been on Kumpi, and have always loved it. Due to the skin issues and infections that they both suffered this year, and also due to the high caloric count that Kumpi has, I decided to try something else.

So we switched to Blue Wilderness, the chicken formula. We are on the 2nd bag now. They love the taste and eat it just fine. After reading about the high protein diet, and taking into consideration the skin issues, I also just started adding probiotics (Probiotic Miracle) and Celavin Omega 3 Oil. Am starting with smaller doses…..today is the 2nd day they have gotten a full 1/4 tsp. of the probiotic, and they also got a 1/4 tsp. of the oil. So far haven’t noticed anything different, but also no ill effects.

What I am noticing in the yard though…..loose and very fragrant (and not in a good way!) stools. I am hoping that the probiotics will start to kick in and help with that, but am wondering if there is an average time frame to start noticing a difference? They also seemed a tad gassy for awhile, that seems to have subsided, but probably still a bit too early to tell. Their stools are also not consistently loose…..some look pretty good, but not as firm as I would like to see. I would also like to find a food that might reduce the amount of stools that I am seeing. I read somewhere recently, may have been here, that a lady had her dog on a food and routine that has resulted in one stool per day…..wow! While I don’t necessarily expect that kind of result, it does seem like they are pooping a lot.

This whole subject of best food(s) to feed is mind boggling to me….so many variables. A dear friend who is very health conscious, both for herself and her dogs, feeds hers Natural Balance (Dick Patten). But since they have now been sold to Del Monte, I have some real concerns that the good reputation they have built for their foods will soon go the way of many foods that have been bought out by large corporations. I am not necessarily ready to give up on Blue Wilderness, but am also reading that perhaps a potato free food may be a better choice. Sweet potato would be ok I think, from what I have read, but “regular” white potatoes can be an allergent.

So looking for some good advice on what to do here…..hang in and see if the probiotics start to kick in and do their job, or keep looking for a food that I can be confident is safe for them, and might help my itchy boy be more comfortable. The probiotic jar is such a small amount for the price…..I am willing to spend on my babies, that’s for sure! But it would be nice to find a food where I could potentially limit the supplements. That may be the ideal world. Would love suggestions on more cost effective probiotics and if I’m on the right track!

Any and all comments and suggestions welcome! I know that there are a lot of you who have done tons of research more than I have, and am hoping to get some shared knowledge that might help.

Thank you in advance and I look forward to hearing your comments! It is very much appreciated.

KatB….dog mom!

[pacer1978]

Also, just out of curiosity..I hear that some vitamins/supplements don’t absorb as they should and aren’t high quality. I purchased the 15 strain brand that was recommended from Swanson’s and then read afterward in a review somewhere that it only had 3 billion of the bacteria versus some other high number that it should be. How can you tell a quality brand from another? What makes Swanson’s recommendable?

[Shihtzumom20]

Hi HDM, was recommended this product on a fb group and was wondering what you thought of it!
http://www.naturalcanine.com/green_power.html
I really like the looks of the see spot live longer dinner mix, I want to feed raw in the pm, am is ziwipeak air dried, and this may be just what I need! I liked urban wolf, but I want to stay away from potatoes, they make Dawsons eyes really watery! And I believe you are one that is OK with grocery store meats? Its all I can get right now, not too much in the ways of organics around here, but it is better than commercially made foods?… I was thinking of doing Nature’s Variety raw again, but have been on the fence…
I also am going to add in turmeric and some krill oil for supplements, he does love sardines, if he ate a can a week could I cut out the krill oil? A can drained is 80 grams. Or switch between krill and sardines if that would be helpful?
Have you ever heard of omega-alpha products, used some for my horse, and saw they had pet products I am mainly interested the probiotics and enzymes:
http://omegaalpha.ca/en/product/114/Probiotic_8_Plus_trade/
If you liked it, I thought it may be an option for Canadians!

[SandyandMila]

beaglemom: I know! On that group they practically scold you for asking questions. It seems a lot if dog parents need help because their dogs are getting ill on raw, well maybe if they’re being instructed to feed it the right way (with organ meat, tripe, veggies/fruits, supplements) they wouldn’t be getting sick. I just started switching to raw a little over a month ago after getting Mila spayed and vaccinated. Her skin and coat really took a hit by the weakening of her immune system. I joined that group in hopes of getting some help, finding suppliers, maybe shared recipes. I officially left that group the other day. People on here are so helpful. They take time out of there busy lives to help educate us on proper nutrition for our dogs, they’re not rude even when others have been rude to them. A lot of us newbies have no clue what to do or where to start they help us to point us in the right direction. Mila’s skin and coat is starting to look a lot better and she’s long, lean, and muscular and I know it’s because of their help. Mila begs for her food now (just had her first raw dressed rabbit this morning) , she never did that before with commercial food, and that was some of the best stuff out there. So I’m very pleased. Which Nature’s Logic do you use? I only feed kibble one meal a week and am trying Annamaet right now and will probably switch to Nature’s Logic when the bag is done.

[beaglemom]

SandyandMila/HDM… haha I just had to comment on this (though I know it was awhile ago). HDM you must never have joined the “rawfeeding” yahoo group! They are “interesting” to say the least… I definitely come here first but here’s the lessons this list wants you to believe: dogs need zero supplements, ever; all dogs need to eat is meat meat meat (and a little bone and a little organs); bones don’t clean teeth, tearing at meat chunks does; necks of any sort have no place in the diet unless attached to the animal; ground meat is evil; veggies and fruits are evil; tripe is useless. LOL. I will join the “thank goodness i found this site” crowd and also to tie in to the topic of this thread, I am expecting my first Hare Today order on Wednesday and can’t wait!!! (And it includes duck necks!!!) 🙂

[Hound Dog Mom]

Patty you’ve got me figured out – lol!

Pacer –

When feeding any cooked food, such as kibble, I recommend supplementing with enzymes. Raw foods naturally contain enzymes however these enzymes are destroyed during the cooking process. For a healthy dog it would be fine to give enzymes at half the recommended dose. Unless there is a certain health issue, I don’t believe dogs fed raw foods need supplemental enzymes.

I believe all dogs should receive probiotics. For a healthy dog, giving a probiotic supplement or feeding a serving or plain yogurt, kefir or raw tripe two or three times a week should be adequate to maintain a healthy and diverse population of microflora in the gut. My dogs get raw green tripe three days per week and a little bit of plain kefir several times per week. For dogs with certain health issues (particularly digestive issues or systemic candidiasis) it may be advisable to give supplemental probiotics daily.

As Patty pointed out, eating grass doesn’t always mean there’s a nutritional issue – it’s actually a fairly normal behavior. You could certainly try adding a green supplement to see if it helps and even if it doesn’t help green supplements are a healthy source of whole food trace nutrients.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 7 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Supplements (especially herbal and whole foods supplements) aren’t something students learn about in veterinary technology or veterinary medicine classes. It’s just something I research on my own. It seems most veterinarians would rather prescribe antibiotics or steroids than to try and get to the root of the problem – which more often than not is correlated with poor nutrition. I don’t believe it’s a money thing, I just don’t think most vets know the alternatives. The big corporate food companies and pharmaceutical companies have a lot of power and it extends into the veterinary classroom. Check out Dr. Karen Becker’s website healthypets(dot)mercola(dot)com – I’m a big fan of hers and her website has a lot of great information. I also really like Dr. Goldstein – he has a wonderful book called “The Nature of Animal Healing.”

[pacer1978]

P.S- Are you learning all of this in veterinarian school in regards to the supplements and what supplement/herbs help what issues? I’m wondering why veterinarians don’t suggest these types of supplements for our dogs..especially the cheaper alternative with the human supplements. It seems like all they want to do is give them shots to “clear” things up, only for the allergy/rash to return. Do you think it is because of the money?

[losul]

LOL

I’ve sampled a couple of dog foods, but I definitely have my limits. I could never, ever become a kibble kruncher. I have however tasted most parrot pellets and nuts/seed though before we feed, and by experiences, I’m glad I do so.

On the supplements, human or not, as limited as we use them, and especially with having very loose regulations, to put it lightly, I personally rarely ever use any pill, tablet or capsule, preferring to rely on senses like taste, smell, and sight. Take fish oil for example. If you swallow gel caps of it, how would you know if it might be rancid until you begin to belch vile tastes and odors? And in the case of enteric coated caps you won’t even get any warning at all. It’s also really hard to determine the actual source, process, etc. used.

Anyone that is a regular sunflower seed eater, especially with the hull on, has probably had the opportunity to taste what complete rancidity/spoilage is like. One bad seed chewed can put out such a horrible taste, it can seem like hours to get the taste out, even with thorough rinsing and brushing.

Btw, I forgot. dulse sprinkled into chili just before serving is also especially tasty, IMO, you can still use cheddar cheese as a topping also 🙂 . Not me, but some people eat whole dried dulse like other folks would potato chips.

[Hound Dog Mom]

I’ve heard up to 1 tsp. per 20 lbs., as Patty stated. It is a maximum dose though – you don’t have to give that much and can certainly give less if fat and/or calories are a concern. My girls (one slightly under 70 lbs. and the other slightly over 70 lbs.) get 1 tbs. each per day.

That actually sounds like a well rounded supplement regimen to me – definitely not overboard. If you’re looking to cut costs on the joint supplements I’d highly recommend checking out Swanson’s. There are so many different supplements to choose from all at a reasonable price. For a senior dog with joint issues you’d want to be sure to include something with joint maintenance properties and also anti-inflammatory properties. Glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM, hyaluronic acid, esterified fatty acids (such as celadrin), green lipped mussel, sea cucumber, shark cartilage and velvet antler all support the maintenance of joints. Turmeric (or curcumin), boswellia, bromelain, tart cherry, yucca, microlactin, omega 3’s, devil’s claw and white willow all have natural anti-inflammatory properties. You can try some combinations until you find what works. Swanson’s does sell a supplement called “Mobility Essentials” which contains glucosamine, MSM, boswellia, bromelain, chondroitin, white willow, curcumin, devil’s claw, quercetin, sea cucumber and yucca – at $10.99 for 180 caps (a 60 lb. dog would need 3 – 4 caps per day and a 40 lb. dog would need 2 – 3 caps per day) it’s a bargain and I know people who have success with it for both human and animal use. I used NOW Foods brand Celadrin + MSM ($16.49 for 120 caps) for my senior before he died.

No, I’m not a vet. I’m currently working towards my bachelor’s in veterinary technology and canine nutrition is my main area of interest. As of now I plan on applying to vet school after I get my vet tech degree – not sure if it will happen or not, I’ll just have to see how everything pans out.

[theBCnut]

If your dogs are on something that they are not reacting to, you should be able to tell very quickly if something you are adding is messing with them. At the first sign of hot skin, itchiness, eye or ear discharge assume it isn’t working and immediately go back to what was working. Note how long it took for you to be able to tell and what signs you saw first. Then after things go back to normal again, if you want to test if it was your imagination or not, you can try again and watch for the same or more reaction to appear again. I can tell my dogs is feeling moist and hot within 6 hours of giving him something that doesn’t agree with him, but my husband can’t tell the difference. Good luck.

[Pugsonraw]

Anyone have any advice on transitioning allergy prone dogs to new supplements? My experience has been that I will try a new whole food supplement, joint product, enzyme or probiotic and within days my dogs are a hot itchy mess. I try to change only one thing at a time to try to test drive a product.

Needless to say, I’ve tried a lot of products. Not sure on how long to wait before deciding if a product is working or adding to their allergies.

Looking for some feedback…..thanks, Dawn

[pacer1978]

Hope you all don’t mind me asking one more question. If I give my dogs Nordic Naturals Omega Fish Oils and Organic Extra Virgin Coconut Oil, do I still need to give them Dasuquin/Cosuquin? Wouldn’t both oils help with joints or am I wrong? I just don’t want to be spending money where I don’t have to if there isn’t more of a benefit or “over-supplement”.

Also, is it OK to give all the dosages in the mornings? I sometimes get home late since I take evening classes and that means my husband has to feed the dogs. I know he won’t keep up on giving them the supplements adequately and giving it to them in the mornings is the only way I can ensure they are getting everything.
Thanks again!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Aussie Mom –

Homemade raw is actually much cheaper than pre-made raw. I spend just under $200 a month to feed my girls a homemade raw diet – for comparative purposes it would cost me nearly $800 per month to feed Darwin’s (based on the average cost of all of their formulas). There are many ways to keep costs low when feeding a homemade raw diet: 1) Utilize raw meaty bones (chicken backs, turkey necks, etc.) – they are much cheaper per pound than boneless meat and if fed in appropriate quantities will eliminate the need for a calcium supplement; 2) Use heart, gizzards and green tripe for the muscle meat component of the diet – these items are cheap and nutritious, dogs have no need for expensive cuts of meat such as boneless skinless chicken breast or beef sirloin; 3) Buy in bulk. I purchase my meat from a wholesaler that supplies restaurants and grocery stores – nearly every item I buy is under $1 per pound; 4) Purchase supplements from a human nutritional store, in bulk when possible – this is much cheaper than buying supplements marketed towards pets. I purchase all supplements for both myself and my dog from Swanson’s – best prices I’ve seen. I make my own green supplement by purchasing the ingredients I want in 1 lb. bags and combining them.

Hare Today is great – I do purchase a few things from there (mostly Green Tripe). Their products are not human grade as they contain things like green tripe, ground bone, fur/feathers (for whole prey grinds) that are not suitable for human consumption (but very nutritious for animals) and the products aren’t processed in a human food facility. Using Hare Today grinds may be slightly cheaper than pre-made raw but if you really want to cut costs you need to do it from scratch – many butchers will sell RMBs and offal cheaply as they’re not desirable for humans or hook up with a supplier like I did.

If you’re interested in homemade raw I would highly recommend purchasing “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown. It’s wonderful book for beginners and includes AAFCO compliant recipes that are easy to make and utilize easy to find and cheap ingredients. Dogaware(dot)com is also a great online resource.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hey losul –

I used tried the Amazing Grass’ Green SuperFood chocolate drink mix – I love the ingredients but it was one of the nastiest things I’ve ever tasted. I went back to Wysong’s whole food supplement capsules – much more palatable lol. I wouldn’t recommend using the Amazing Grass supplement for a dog because it contains green tea and it doesn’t state that it’s been decaffeinated. This is the problem with many green supplements designed for humans.

[Anonymous]

Have you tried a Calming Cap?

There are many calming supplements on the market, some have published studies behind them. You may have to try and see which one might help.

I also suggest to bridge the gap between trips around town and long trips. You wouldn’t go out and run a marathon without careful and deliberate training. Start with trips just a bit longer than your around town trips and gradually build on it. If you get “the hassles” you have asked for more than your dog can handle. Back up and reduce the distance. Then increase in smaller steps.

You could also talk with your vet about Dramamine. He may have motion sickness issues that only surface on long trips. Plus, the original Dramamine has a mild sedating effect.

Who knows, may be he has made some really bad experience on a long trip and you are dealing with an old trauma.

[ILoveDogs]

Where do you get the supplements? Are they available online? I’d also read that giving cranberry, Vit C and probiotics can help.

[pugmomsandy]

Ok. My dogs see a holistic vet. They have some struvite but are not symptomatic of any kind of infection. I give them urinary health supplements and they continue with their regular diet.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 7 months ago by pugmomsandy.

[bullterriermom]

I will look into those Ty, someone recommended fresh hearts from a butcher, I tried to get them but it really grossed me out and I couldn’t do it. Supplements is a much easier and far less eww factor way of me getting her some extra cardiovascular support.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi shilohsure –

Pre-made raw food is very expensive and Primal is probably the most expensive brand of all. Pre-made raw really is financially impractical for large breed dogs and multi-dog households. If you want to feed raw I’d highly recommend researching homemade raw and learning to make your own. Homemade raw is higher quality than pre-made raw and it’s much cheaper. I’m currently spending under $200 per month to feed my two girls raw – they’re both around 70 lbs. and they each eat about 2 lbs. of meat/bone/organ + extras (eggs, kefir, veggies, supplements, etc.) per day. If you go to the raw food forum there’s a thread with recommended menus, you can check out what I feed my girls there. “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown is a great book for beginners getting started on homemade raw.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 7 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Yes that’s the site I order from. There really isn’t a difference between human supplements and animal supplements. It’s important to make sure whatever human supplement you plan on using for your dog contains ingredients safe for dogs (generally not a concern with digestive supplements and joint supplements) and you’ll need to adjust the dose according to your dog’s weight. The main difference is that pet supplements usually come in powders or meat flavored chewables where human supplements typically come in tablets, capsules or softgels. With tablets I just crush them or split them and mix them in the food, for capsules I open them up and sprinkle the powder in their food and with softgels I use a thumbtack to poke a hole and squeeze it over the food. I wouldn’t use any of the pet probiotics the two I see that they offer aren’t as good as the human versions and they’re more expensive – Jarrow Pet Dophilus only has 5 strains of probiotics and costs $0.20 per serving and the Flying Basset Pro Animal Probiotic only has one strain and costs $0.27 per serving. The Swanson Ultra Soil-Based Organisms has 15 strains of probitoics + 5 enzymes + whole foods and only costs $0.11 per serving – since it’s made for humans I’d also assume it’s better quality.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 7 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[pacer1978]

Thanks Hound Dog Mom…is this by chance the correct website that you order from?

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ultra-soil-based-organisms-90-caps

I did notice that they also offer a pet probiotic. Do you recommend the human probiotic over that because you had mentioned that they are higher quality? If that is the case, why are there “pet” supplements to begin with? Thanks again!!

[WhippetsGo2]

I am posing this situation for a whippet friend in our club. Their 3 year old whippet was not been eating regularly starting beginning of this summer. Tried different foods and such to no avail. Just recently he refused to go on a walk and at the same time the owner noticed that his breathing pattern was off. He was taken to the vet and they discovered through a chest x-ray that he had fluid in his lungs. They drained the fluid, sent it out for testing and it came back as being chylous. They were told, in layman’s terms that means he has trouble digesting fats. He was put on a prescription low fat diet and eating again but 12 days later his breathing symptoms came back and he was rushed to the vet where they extracted even more fluid from his lungs. The vet wants to give the low fat diet a chance to work but if the fluid should return a third time, he wants to do an ultrasound to see if there are any heart issues associated.

In my rudimentary searches, the appearance of fat is expected in chylous fluid. Anyone have any experience? Onset of heart disease? Want to help my peeps ask the right questions.

Brian
4 x Whippets for racing, coursing, agility & show
Feeds raw, supplements with 6 Fish and Stella’s Freeze Dried for the road.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Check out Swanson’s – I’d recommend Dr. Langer’s 15 Strain Probiotic or Swanson Ultra Soil-Based Microorganisms. Both are high quality and reasonably priced. Swanson’s also has a great price on their organic extra virgin coconut oil. I order all my supplements an my dogs’ supplements from here.

[pacer1978]

Thank you for your responses. I wasn’t sure if the human supplements would still be beneficial for dogs. So…this is what I plan on doing. Can you let me know if this is recommended? I switch dog food every now and then (all 4-5 star brands). Currently, I have them on Solid Gold MMellenium. I give Mia (4-yr old Weim) and Lucy (guessing age to be around 10, not sure of breed, she is a mix) 2 Nordic Naturals fish capsules for dogs per day. I give Mattie (12-yr old Weim) and Lucy 1 Dasuquin per day. I will most likely start Mia on this soon as well. I plan on starting them on Coconut oil (heard there was a good brand through Costco or Cocotherapy was also good). Also considering probiotic..or prebiotic? Which is better? Any brands you would recommend for the pro/prebiotic?
They issues they experience:
For the most part, they are healthy with the occasional allergy bouts (chewing/licking paws). Lucy gets watery eyes..which has gotten a little better after getting her teeth cleaned (they pulled 4 teeth). Weims tend to get bad hips as they age, hence the Dasuquin. Mia sheds a lot for a Weim and Lucy does as well, Mattie not too bad. Mia also tends to have what appears to be flaky skin and usually a rash or irritation on her chest (most likely from the mat in her cage since I crate her during the day. She gets in trouble and tears papers up around the house when I don’t). I keep the mat clean, so I’m not really sure why this keeps happening. I’ve tried different types of mats thinking maybe she is allergic to the material, but that doesn’t help. I’m mainly just looking to improve their overall health and wasn’t sure if doing all this would be wasting money or actually helping. Thanks again!!

[DogFoodie]

I once talked to my TCVM vet about cardiac supplements (hoping to prevent any cardiac issues in my beloved Cavalier) and he recommends Standard Process Canine Cardiac Support, but only if a dog has a heart condition that necessitates it ~ rather than for prevention. You have to buy it from an approved Standard Process veterinary supplier. Check for a supplier near you here: https://www.standardprocess.com/HCP-Search

Here’s a link for the product: https://www.standardprocess.com/Products/Veterinary-Formulas/Canine-Cardiac-Support

[Mom2Cavs]

I have a Cavalier, my Black & Tan, Hazel who has a grade 2 murmur. I have used supplements in the past but atm I’m not using any. Hazel has had her murmur since 2 months old (probably born with it) and she’s 6 years old now. I hasn’t changed yet. COQ10, Hawthorn, Taurine, L-Carnitine are good for the heart. I’ve given supplements for humans and made for dogs. Some of the ones made for dogs are: Cardio Strength, Bio Cardio, the supplement from Nature’s Farmacy (I think it’s called Heart Strength?). There’s also a site called Mainly Dogs that has one.

[emchide]

Hi everyone, and thanks for such an informative site with a lot of informative posts by those willing to share their hard-learned experiences. I’ve been poring over a lot of the discussions and digging in to the facts presented, and I’m trying hard not to duplicate questions already asked.

One manufacturer I came across seems not to have a presence on this website yet – it’s listed in the topic, GreenTripe.com. What particularly intrigues me are their various formulations using trachea, gullet, and pancreas, among others. What do you experienced raw food people think of this variation? At a glance, it looks like shipping costs might be somewhat prohibitive unless ordering in serious bulk.

I’m thinking my best bet to start is simply checking with the local grocers for various RMBs and organs on the cheap and using those as well as eggs, yogurt, and so on as a topper for grain-free kibble (currently rotating among Halo Puppy Salmon, Halo Surf and Turf, Nature’s Variety Instinct Duck, and Nature’s Variety Instinct Rabbit with canned toppings like Wellness Core and Solid Gold Green Cow Tripe). Ideally I would eventually transition to all home-prepared ingredients but I definitely need to read up more on vegetables and supplements for a while first.

Oh, and my dog is a four-month old boxer/pit mix – he’s growing like a weed and I’m slightly concerned we’ve been using a few too many treats for training in addition to his three meals a day as he’s gone from 13 lbs on June 12 when we adopted him to 32 currently, but he seems healthy as a horse and has great energy. The only issue seems to be some scratching and itching which has somewhat receded as his flea treatment has kicked in (I still find fleas on him but they seem unwell and are easy to catch and crush), but he came home on SD of course from the SPCA so I am hoping that dietary improvements might eliminate any potential skin issues if they exist.

I look forward to gleaning a lot more valuable knowledge from these discussions, and thanks again for expending the energy to inform more people – I really appreciate the love-driven data!

• This topic was modified 12 years, 7 months ago by emchide.
• This topic was modified 12 years, 7 months ago by emchide.

[Sue’s Zoo]

Thanks very much, hdm. I will check out the supplements you mentioned.

[little pea]

PattyV

The leaky gut. I read about this a few days prior and was shocked. Especially because the girl’s highest allergy was to yeast. And I knew stolen loaves of bread from the counter were having some effect.
In addition in Feb/March we had one of the worst bouts of overall scratching, paw chewing and ear infection. The weather was wet and she had been recently professionally groomed. And dog loves to just stand or lay down in the rain. Primary suspect yeast infection . So began a steroid, pills, and medicated ear wash… the ears taking over 2 weeks to clear.
She looked and acted perfect in April/May.
Late May blowing coat and itching, itching and coat continues to fall well into June. Itching starts up, I don’t recall heavy paw chewing. I flew in a professional newf groomer prior to a late June show and we had long talks on coat care, drying, etc etc… and etc And a steroid shot.
I do not think we have leaky gut, but my gut says yeast is on a high watch list.
I did talk to a Holistic vet clinic and they even suggested a special Derm vet…which does scratch test as opposed to blood. I thinks it is too far to go.
The dog’s skin at this time is in perfect condition and has been since April. Yet we continue with the face, ear, and frequent scratch to those areas and a frontal paw chew. After switching to Ziwi peak venison in June red eyes and the clear discharge have pretty much been eliminated. No red eyes.

The newbie in me is digging for answers, but I feel some simple solutions are more practical.
A raw diet…with supplements. Just need to figure it all out.
Thank-you.
You seem to be, a pretty sharp cookie.

[FreeholdHound]

Thank you!! Glad I’ve been lax in supplements the last 2 wks LOL. Will be copy/pasting this 🙂

[Hound Dog Mom]

Okay gotcha. No, what we feed wouldn’t be considered “prey model.” Those that follow prey model believe dogs should eat meat, bones and organs only – nothing else. Many refer to ground raw meat and veggie diets as “BARF” style. I would consider my feeding style to be a BARF/Prey Model Hybrid. My dogs get a prey model style dinner each night (RMBs and whole offal) but their breakfast is ground with veggies and whole food supplements.

As far as garlic it’s very beneficial if given in small quantities but I’m not sure how much it would increase the palatability. My girls get a couple cloves three days per week. Garlic is a natural broad-spectrum antibiotic. Garlic is also a prebiotic and contains antibacterial, anti-fungal, anti-viral and anti-carcinogenic properties. The sulfur content also acts as a natural insect repellent. You’d want to give the following amounts 3 – 4 days per week: under 10 lbs – 1/4 clove; 10 to 20 lbs. – half a clove; 20 to 50 lbs. – 1 clove; 50 to 75 lbs. – 2 cloves; 75 to 100 lbs. – 2 and a half cloves; 100 lbs. and over – 3 cloves.

[EHubbman]

I should clarify a bit, haha! The things I was reading were more along the lines of 50% meat/bone/organ and 50% raw fruit and veg (or other ratios around those amounts), which is why I was wanting to stay away from those, because that kinda seems like an obnoxious amount of fruit/veg. I was finding these ratios on pages for the BARF diet, where prey model raw pages were more towards meat/bone/organs with supplements.

More what I mean by feeling more towards prey model is what I’m seeing more frequently here and among those I know that feed raw. The main majority of the meal is meat/bone/organ, but they do supplement with good stuff. (Am I calling it the wrong thing by saying prey model?)

Patty, that mix sounds like a good treat! I’m sure Dom would love it, he loves frozen treats.

HDM, Thanks! I’ll definitely be checking in on those books. A good friend just recommended “Raw and Natural Nutrition for Dogs: The Definitive Guide to Homemade Meals” by Lew Olson, so I’ve been trying to read that.

Random thought, since I’ve seen it a few times on forums: Garlic for dogs? I would think that since it’s a member of the allium family, wouldn’t it be bad for dogs? Yet I see people saying “add it to the food to make your dog eat it!”

[Hound Dog Mom]

EHubbman –

If you decide to go the strict prey model route be very careful. Most strict prey model diets are deficient in key nutrients unless synthetic supplements are added – there’s a reason why there are no meat/bone/organ grinds that conform to AAFCO standards (to my knowledge), they’re all labeled for intermittent or supplemental feeding only. The thing is, it’s not very difficult to conform to the AAFCO nutrient profiles either. Also if you’re visiting prey model forums take everything you read with a grain of salt – there is a lot of misinformation thrown around on these forums. As someone just starting out I would strongly recommend picking up a copy of “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown and “Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats” by Dr. Karen Becker. I also second everything Patty posted concerning the importance of antioxidants.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 7 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Hound Dog Mom]

One other thing I didn’t think to mention in my previous post is that if you are looking to cut costs but want to continue to give your dogs high quality joint supplements look into human joint supplements – this also goes for all other supplements (probiotics, enzymes, etc.) as well. Human supplements tend to be higher in quality and generally cost significantly less per dose. Just adjust the dose – 1/4 human dose per 25 lbs. (dogs >100 lbs. can have the recommended human dose). Swanson’s is where I shop for all my dogs’ supplements.

[bullterriermom]

My dog has a level 2 heart murmur. Are their any supplements I should add to my dogs food, to help her? Is it ok to take her for 30-45 min walks, play ball in the yard ect? I want to do what’s best by her, and make sure I’m not causing her harm by being active with her. I have heard if her breed is inactive they can get destructive and obviously I don’t want that. I find info online and one page will say one thing and then a different page will say something completely different. I just don’t want to do the wrong things.

[Hound Dog Mom]

HI pacer1978 –

Dasequin and cosequin are very similar and they’re both made by the same company – Nutramax Labs. Both contain glucosamine and chondroitin (Cosequin may also have an option with MSM) but in addition to the glucosamine and chondroitin, Dasequin also contains ASU – another ingredient believed to protect against cartilage damage. I’ve used some Vet’s Best products (I’m currently using their Dental Gel) and I think they make good products – it would be worth trying their joint supplements to see if your dog receives the same relief.

When feeding a balanced dog food supplements aren’t necessary (in fact synthetic vitamin/mineral supplements can potentially be harmful) but dogs can benefit from some supplements such as joint supplements, probiotics, enzymes and whole food based supplements. Probiotics are great – you can use a supplement or give your dog some plain yogurt or kefir a few days per week.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi beagleowner –

Is what you listed above all your dog gets? Are any supplements added aside from te glucosamine and fish oil? I’m asking because what you listed is extremely unbalanced and could result in some major issues if fed long term.

[pacer1978]

Does anyone know the difference between the two? I give my two older dogs (one being a Weimaraner) Dasuquin. I’ve been giving it to her for years and she seems to not have hip/joint issues. However, I noticed that Cosequin was a bit cheaper. I also saw another hip/joint product and was thinking of switching her to Vet’s Best. Does anyone know about their products and if they are good? If it isn’t broke, don’t fix it…so I may just leave her on the Dasuquin…but, was looking for a little more affordable alternatives.

Also, if you feed your dog good quality dog food, I heard that there wouldn’t be a need to give them supplements. How does anyone feel about that? With that being said, it is recommended to give a dog probiotics as well?