[Paula D]

Yes, I used it when my Bruno developed late-in-life kidney disease and the vet recommended a more medium protein and –more important— low phosphorus diet instead of the raw I had been feeding. Easy to understand recipe, using the food processor it didn’t take long to chop up everything, and both my hounds liked the cooked food. My two “negatives” we’re that the recipe made a lot of food and so you needed freezer space and it was expensive. Their treats are also excellent!

Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Feeding the Kidney Patient: The Low Protein Diet Myth

Low Protein Diets? Really?

The Skinny On Kidney Disease

Kidney disease. This one way street eventually leads to death. We see it in our cats most often, much less in dogs, and I suspect far, far less in horses. People die of this regularly. Unlike the liver, with its massive capacity for regeneration, the kidney simply doesn’t allow for renewal. Once kidney failure (or, more politely, CKD chronic kidney disease) is diagnosed in your animal, it means 75% or more of the kidneys’ capacity to filter wastes is now lost. Failure is the operant word, though. These two small organs are in failure and won’t pull out of it.
http://vitalanimal.com/low-protein-diet-myths/#comments

[LabsRawesome]

Akari, Ginger needed a dental over a year ago when you first got her. It is a fact that kidney disease is caused by dental disease. It is just plain abuse to let her suffer with a mouth full of rotten teeth. Do you even realize how much agony she’s in? Please tell me how long you would have a toothache before you went to the dentist? Days? Weeks? Months? A Freakin year? Do you realize that failure to provide medical treatment to your dog is illegal? Depending on what state you’re in it may even be a felony. You are more concerned with stocking up on dog/cat food and ridiculous things that your pets don’t really even need. A large cat tree and raised food/water bowls. Really!? This is what you spend your time and money on while Ginger suffers in agony with a mouth full of rotten teeth? I just can’t wrap my mind around the fact that you have let her suffer needlessly for a year. My God this is extreme cruelty. And your ridiculous claims of every major appliance breaking at the same time are no excuse to let her suffering continue. Neither is the fact that she may die during her dental. She would be better off if she did pass than living another day in excruciating pain. You can end her suffering in one of two ways. Either get her teeth removed, or have her put to sleep. Please end her suffering. Don’t wait another day. I would also like to add that I do not care if my post offends you or anyone else. I have spoken the truth, and given a voice to the voiceless. That is all.

[InkedMarie]

Ginger needs the dental. It borders on abusive to NOT do it. Her mouth is hurting, how fair is that to let her suffer? Sorry but I don’t care about money. WE choose to have animals, that makes it our responsibility to have needed vet care done.

When we met Gemma, she had 15 teeth. Ten days later, after a spay & dental, she had none. She developed kidney disease & my vet thinks it’s from her rotten mouth. Ten, I thought the owner was negligent/abusive for letting her get into thatt shape and then I blamed the rescue, who didn’t do the dentl until they had an adopter. Heaven forbid we don’t take care of her teeth to make her healthy <insert eyeroll>

[Dori]

Wow, Akari. I’ve never seen a dog’s tooth in that bad a shape. You weren’t exaggerating when you said Ginger’s teeth were in bad shape. She has got to be in pain with the condition that her teeth are in. If the dental is not going to be done, which by the way I definitely think should be done, they you’re probably better off not putting water in her food so that she’s forced to chew and maybe lose the worst of the teeth. Just make sure she’s drinking plenty of water of it’s going to screw up her kidney’s. Also so that you know, even though she will lose the most offending teeth, that isn’t going to do anything for any disease that she has under the gums that will eventually get into her blood system if it hasn’t already.

As for the Denamarin, as you know Hannah had very high liver levels though not as high as Ginger’s were/are. Hannah’s is due to the tumor in her bladder and the mass on one of the lobes of a lung. Because of her age I have been told not only by her vet but also by two of her specialist vets that Hannah will be on the Denamarin for the rest of her life. I give her one whole tablet (specialists and her vets recommendations) 1 1/2 hours before her dinner every single day. I have been doing this for a year now and her liver levels are now in the normal range. We tried dropping it to 1/2 tablet per day but her liver levels started to rise again. I have forgotten to mention to you all along that Hannah is on the chewable version. The tablet is scored and I just break it in half for her and she chews them both up. She loves the taste. That might also be another way for Ginger to loose bad molars.

When the vet got her blood work back I thought he didn’t want to due the dental because of her liver and kidney levels? But now he feels it’s okay even though he hasn’t done blood work again? I don’t understand? Look, I’m no vet that’s for sure but I’m seriously thinking that her liver levels and perhaps kidney, are due to the constant infections coming from her mouth. I also think it’s doing tremendous harm to have her on antibiotics as often as the vet has. He’s just treating symptoms which vets seem to like to do. He’s not really treating what’s wrong with her. Antibiotics are horrible for the organs and the gut and every other part of your internal body. I think your mom has gotten so attached to Ginger that she’s afraid to lose her. Can Ginger die through surgery? Yes. But so can anyone going under anaesthesia (sp?). At some point as guardians of animals we have to realize that the quality of their lives counts more than our not wanting to let go. Honestly, I’m thrilled to hear that Ginger is doing better and also that she lost that horrible molar. Are you giving her 1/4 teaspoon of coconut oil a day? If not, you should be. Ginger has probably been so snappish when anywhere near her mouth because she’s been in so much pain for so long. You know how painful it is yourself when you have a tooth ache. One of the worst pains. Toothaches, back aches and child birth are by far the worst pains ever. I’d rather give birth again than deal with tooth aches.

[Jennifer H]

I would still try it, personally. Do you know what ingredients he was sensitive to perhaps? I would just switch reaaallly slowly at first and watch for any signs that he isn’t tolerating it. Some companies will send samples of their food to you to try, so you don’t have to commit to a bag.

Finding multiple foods for him is a good idea in case there are ever formulation changes or recalls.

Some people switch cold turkey, but with his digestion issues imo a slower transition may be better for him. You could also look at adding probiotics/enymes to ease the transition, especially when you start out.

Ughhh I hate when vets do that! It’s like being sprayed with perfume at the mall. I’m actually in school for veterinary assisting and in our text book it has a chart for various diseases/conditions (ex: kidney failure, pancreatitis) and under recommended diet, every single one has some variation of Hills. Like no guidelines or anything about why to feed certain foods. The chart lasts like 5 pages. It’s insane.

[Dog_Obsessed]

Hi James,
Congrats on your new puppy! I don’t think you need to switch to a lower protein food. The myth of high protein causing kidney disease in dogs has been disproven, and high protein should not be a problem in puppies, with the exception of large breed puppies, who have special requirements. Wellness Core is a great food, however no food is absolutely perfect. For this reason, me and many other “regulars” on DFA support rotational feeding. Learn more about that here: /frequently-asked-questions/diet-rotation-for-dogs/

Remember to always transition slowly between foods. Adding a digestive enzyme or probiotic can help if your dog has a sensitive stomach. Also, until she is around 6 months old, make sure all of the foods you are feeding are listed as “puppy” or “all life stages.” Good luck!

Edit: Just saw the part about her not liking her food as much. Rotation could help with this, if she is getting bored of the same stuff. Also, adding a small amount of wet food, or even water with some dogs, can help make the food more palatable.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 8 months ago by Dog_Obsessed.

[Anonymous]

I have had old dogs that needed surgery, dental and otherwise. I usually make a quick decision, based on the amount of discomfort they are in.
Regarding the dementia and periods of agitation, ask your vet if a low dose of melatonin would help? But keep in mind the main symptoms of liver and kidney disease is nausea….so the more stuff you give, the harder the liver and kidneys have to work to detoxify. Best of luck

[Anonymous]

What does the vet that has examined the dog recommend? That is who I would listen to.
Did he say he wouldn’t do the dental surgery? Did he advise you of the risks? Do you need another opinion? They have specialists for dental procedures and geriatric care.

There is no over the counter med that will reverse kidney disease

The anesthesia drugs they use nowadays are not as harsh as back when….but then again, there are no guarantees with anything in life.

BTW: You might make things worse by adding supplements, run it by the vet first.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by Anonymous.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by Anonymous.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by Anonymous.

[losul]

I think its pretty well established that the average natural lifespan of adult HW’s is about 5 or so years. “adult worms that may live for five to seven years in dogs.”- American Heartworm Society. Even devout opponents of using slow kill, usually say that it can take UP TOO 2 Years for the adults to die using ivermectin as a slow kill. UP TO 2 YEARS- I would ask, is is that the average lifespan of 5 to seven years? They can say it doesn’t kill HW’s if they want ( I call it slow killing them), but there IS evidence that it significantly shortens their lifespans, and evidence that they can be gone in much less time than 2 years. Yet above is an unsubstantiated, unreferenced claim that;

“it does nothing to kill the adults. Without Immitricide, the present adult worms will continue to cause damage to the heart and circulatory system until the natural expiration of its life cycle.”

Well here’s some more of my research.t;

Here’s an important study titled, “COMBINED IVERMECTIN AND DOXYCYCLINE TREATMENT has microfilaricidal and ADULTICIDAL activity against Dirofilaria immitis in experimentally infected dogs.” and the conclusion, “RESULTS INDICATE THAT THE COMBINATION OF THESE TWO DRUGS CAUSES WORM DEATH. This could have important implications for control of human and animal filarial infections.”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18433753

a third; “Reduction of adult worms was 20.3% for IVM, 8.7% for DOXY, 92.8% for IVM + DOXY + MEL, 100% for MEL, and 78.3% for IVM + DOXY.”
“Preliminary observations suggest that administration of DOXY+IVM for several months prior to (OR WITHOUT) MEL WILL ELIMINATE HW with less potential for severe thromboembolism than MEL alone.”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18930598

To try to keep balanced, and not to be takenm lightly, a bit older and a negative study, warning of using ivermectin alone or ivermectin with praziquantal as a SOLE treatment too dogs with with clinical, radiographic or echocardiographic evidence of heartworm disease. Some of the dogs radiographs or electrocardiographs indicated increased evidence of disease during the study, The conclusion of that study- “Thus, monthly administration of IVM to dogs with CLINICAL, RADIOGRAPHIC or ECHOCARDIOGRAPHIC evidence of heartworm disease is ILL ADVISED and SUCH TREATMENT OF EVEN THE ASYMPTOMATIC DOG SHOULD BE DONE ONLY WITH MUCH CAUTION AND FREQUENT MONITORING BY THE VETERINARIAN”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15381305

Immiticide (melarsomine dihydrochloride) has les side effects and mortalities than the elder chemical. There hasn’t been shown immediate liver or kidney damage, but is STILL A VERY POTENT ARSENIC compound, I don’t believe anyone can say for certain what LT effects aor damages it could have. Immiticide “Melarsomine dihydrochloride is an organic arsenical chemotherapeutic agent.” Merial themselves state that immiticide has a low margin of safety. Plus, in their own clinical trials, 5.2% of dogs in stage 1 and stage 2 died following treatment. 18.2% of class 3 dogs died following treatment. In a further smaller trial, 33.33% of class 3 dogs died. Many of the mortalities and side effects a surely reduced much further with the use of powerful steroids. My vet would have given along with each of the series of 3 immiticide injections, 3 injections of dexamethasone, a powerful steroidal drug that can in itself have serious consequences, and tramadol for pain, with a strict confinement total of 60 days and three nights and 3 days hospitalization. That’s his protocol assuming there were no complications. These were hard but researched decisions for me too make, and I’m sure fro anyone else in these shoes. Again my dog is asymptomatic, shows no clinical signs, or pertinent radiographical signs of heartworm disease. He still does or did have a HW infection. I do my best to keep my dog healthy, did everything I could too best make decisions, and I’m not going top feel guilt for not subjecting him to (what I believe is needlessly in Turbo’s case ) to trauma and harsh, damaging, life threatening chemicals. The money for us was no factor. To make it clear, I believe in many cases, melarsomine SHOULD, be used, and in some, I understand why it is used, and also who sometimes it CAN’T be used.

I have hopes, but no expectations one way or the other for Turbo’s upcoming HW test results. The only expectation I have is that his complete exam, his CBC, and if need be, another xray, will continue to indicate good health. I had already made the determination some time ago that I was going to be able to rest in peace, no matter + or – reading, as long as Turbo remains healthy and free of heartworm disease and as ALL the evidence currently shows. I know I made the right choice for us. My vet wanted to wait for a full year for retesting, as he knows the worms need be gone for about 6 months for the antigens to be non detectible. That would mean the worms would have already had to have been gone already around 6 months ago, so about 5 months after starting A.P., not a very long time, especially since the moxidectin takes 3 to 4 applications to build up to full plasma potency.

If Melissa’s intent was was to inflict hurt, disturbance, dismay, guilt, or just to promote antagonism, then I guess I can give her the pleasure of knowing she had much of intended effect, but not guilt. I made an appointment for Turbo tommorrow, (soon to be today) a few weeks ahead of time, and he will get his HW re-test, blood work and exam.

I’m disturbed of the purpose of Melissas statement, and honestly I fail to find anything helpful or useful, in it. Instead, I find unsubstantied and inaccuracies. Unlike her, I extensively researched everything I could, and with the help of many others, to make important educated decisions, some of it documented throughout this thread. I’m sure my my research extended well beyond, and still do. I took this very seriously, still do, I’m never one to just throw damaging drugs and chemicals at anything without doing my own research rather than relying on a clinic vet’s words, my own personal and unsubstantied bias, or simple heresay.

Her first paragraph actually contradicts her second , (Could she actually think the slow kill method entails doing absolutely nothing, no monthly preventative?). That final sentence and her irrational conclusion is the one most superfluous and disturbing. What person or vet in their right mind would ever attempt, condone or allow continuing damage for 5 years? Seem’s as to me sensationalism at it’s best.

Glenna, i will continue trying to present the whole picture, the best I can, without any bias, or judgement. I think you probably already realized that before this post. Slow kill can absolutely has it’s risks, much of it depending on the health, and the degree of infection or disease, but so can the the immiticide, the immiticide particularly if you are not able to adhere too very strict confinement, as you already indicated you could not? It seemed you already had your mind made up on slow kill, but I would believe you still have then more time to still consider the alternative? Have your vet read the studies above, in particular the one about doxycycline w/preventative, it could be very be helpful in whichewver method. Xrays/bloodwork/ can also certainly help on any further determination if not already done.

I should have the HW test results later today. The other bloodwork then send to an outside lab so probably will not have it for a couple more days…

[InkedMarie]

Gemma was our 12 ish year old sheltie who we have had just two years. She wasn’t in the best of health when we got her, not horrible but could have been better. She came to us with no teeth which is probably good because when she put her mouth on you, her jaws were like a vice grip!
Like a typical sheltie, she loved to eat. She had joint problems so walking wasn’t something she enjoyed. She loved the snow, loved my grandaughter that I babysit.
She got sick this past weekend & had advanced chronic kidney disease. t’s been a hard week & we sent her over the bridge this morning.

Goodbye, my sweet Gemma, I will miss you more than you know. Run free & look for Jasper, Molly, Emma, Tucker and Katie; I know they’re waiting for you.

[Bobby dog]

Hi Susan:
I don’t want to hijack Akari’s thread, but I thought I would post this link for you. I have never had a cat with kidney failure. I came across this website a while ago when I was looking for some info for my hyperthyroid kitty. It has info regarding all stages of kidney disease in cats. Maybe this will give you a starting point to learn more about your kitty’s health condition; it cites studies throughout and links to them for further reading.
http://www.felinecrf.org/index.htm
Also, if you use any meds or topicals on your cat be sure to see if they are recommended for use on a sick cat. Some topical flea meds have a warning not to use them on sick animals or to use them more often than recommended. Sorry to hear about your kitty.

[Akari_32]

Yeah well next time she needs ear drops or a nail trim, I’m calling you! She won’t look like such an angel then…. Lol

Blood test is going to be $130-something and dental a little more. Extractions are extra, though I wasn’t told how much. If a blood test was only $40 here, I’d have one done just for the giggles. Lord knows there’s more wrong with her than just meets the eye, and I’m sure theres something nasty going on with all the tumors on her body. But very few people want a dog this old with her list of problems, both mradical and behavioral, as long as hers, so I just deal with them as they come.

Cats can’t even hardly digest carbs, so what good would that even do? Raw diets are actually shown to reverse a lot of diseases in cats and dogs. Canned with low carbs (less than 5%) would be the next best thing. Vets all think high protein is too hard on the kidneys when in reality it’s usually high protein with not enough water that is so hard on them. Protein takes a lot of water to be properly broken down and processed. So do carbs, so why add carbs and take that water away from digesting what the body really needs (protein)?

[Shawna]

When tested at the time of diagnosis, Audrey’s BUN hovered around 57/58 and got as high as 77 when I was experimenting with her diet. Interestingly her creatinine went down when her BUN was up that high. She eats a high protein (45 to 54% dry matter) diet so not unusual for her BUN to be a bit high to begin with. Her phosphorus has never been high when checked so she’s not eating low phos or taking binders. Dogaware.com would be a good place to get some additional info on binders etc.

Your puppy is lucky to have found you!!! Some other things you can try is eliminating as many of the chemicals in your home that you can. When I first learned of Audrey’s illness I looked at the ingredient lists of all the items I used in my house and then check the CDC and/or Material Safety Data Sheets for the products. If they gave any warning about the kidneys — they were gone.

Supporting the liver can help too. I’ve had Audrey on Standard Process Canine Hepatic Support off and on as well as the Renal Support.

Interesting that they use lamb and spinach in the Just food for dogs kd food. I’ve read (and had discussions on DFA) about lamb being the hardest protein to digest. And Veterinary Nutritionist warns against feeding spinach to dogs with kidney disease (I believe because of the high amounts of oxalates). http://petnutritionbysmart.blogspot.com/2013/02/home-made-diets-and-renal-disese-in.html

My brain is shutting down so I best head off to bed.

Wishing you and your baby wonderful results and optimal health!!.. Please ask any more questions you might have and update me, if you think about it, on what you decided for her and how she does with it!!!

[Shawna]

OH NO!!! Pegripley and Kari K — I’m so sorry I missed your posts!!! My time is somewhat limited and for a long time I wasn’t able to log in to the forum side. Still don’t know why that happened?? If you still having questions please email me at [email protected]

Kim S – I use the Sprinkle Fiber in conjunction with the Primal Defense probiotic as needed (if Audrey seems depressed, or her breath gets a bit unpleasant etc). Audrey is nine pounds — I give her 1/2 to 1 full sized Primal Defense and 1/8 teaspoon of Sprinkle Fiber. I then give her more Sprinkle Fiber at the same dosage for subsequent meals until she is feeling better (usually, with her, only two or three meals). Audrey gets probiotic foods fairly often so I usually don’t have to give her more than one Primal Defense.

As mentioned in other post — I HIGHLY recommend Standard Process Canine Renal Support as well. And a raw diet if doable. Dr. Barbara Royal created a raw kidney disease diet for Darwins. http://www.darwinspet.com/our-raw-foods/our-raw-dog-food/intelligent-design-ks/#sthash.D8huiK2g.dpbs

[Shawna]

Hi Kim S,

Pugmomsandy sent me an email letting me know you might have some questions for me. Thanks Sandy!!

Nitrogen trapping has been very very useful in helping to keep Audrey feeling well. When her breath gets a bit funky or she seems depressed I give her Garden of Life Primal Defense probiotics and Fiber35 Sprinkle Fiber as the probiotic (both are products marketed for humans). I tried other “fermentable” fibers (like barley, apple pectin etc) but Sprinkle Fiber had the best results.

The product I absolutely MUST have for her however is Standard Process Canine Renal Support. She’s been on it for over seven years. I can explain why I feel so strongly about this product if you wish — kinda technical.

Some other things that I rotate in her diet are spirulina, chlorella, food grade activated charcoal, burdock root (another really good fermentable fiber (but she got tired of the strong taste)), milk thistle and more. I mix five or so super foods/supps with an equal amount of enzymes and sprinkle on most of her meals.

Turmeric would be very beneficial for dogs with kidney disease as well but sadly Audrey doesn’t tolerate it well.

Giving ultra clean (like RO) water is important too. Evian water is both clean and a good source of a specific kind of calcium called calcium bicarbonate. Mineral waters higher in calcium (and lower in sodium) have shown some benefits for kidney disease.

I would recommend raw to any that can feed it, gently home cooked if raw is not an option or canned if raw and home cooked are not options.

Absolutely no chemicals like flea/tick or heartworm meds and no vaccines (including rabies).

I’m not sure how much info you’re wanting so sorry if I went overboard. 🙂 There’s tons more I can tell you if interested (like keep oil soluble chlorophyll on hand in case of anemia).

[Cait Y]

Ok so I have lurked here for a little over a year, and recently started making my own raw cat food via Lisa A. Pierson, DVM because one of my boys almost died after getting into the Dry food AGAIN and his whole GI system blocked up because he cannot handle the lack of fluids in dry food. He is such a picky eater that I had put off the raw diet dreading that he would turn his nose up at it like he did the other high quality raw/semi cooked food I tried buying him. He LOVED the home made food, he even batted off his BFF to eat his food too!
HoundDogMom, other raw feeders please bear with me I know that the whole shebang I know as of now it is 6 pages long. I am trying to paint the whole picture with the dogs, their special needs and what is causing me confusion with the Raw feeding books I have read. There is so much going on right now in my personal life that I am having a very hard time understanding this and if anyone could help point me in the right direction or even a book or website or from experience I would be so very very grateful.
The biggest reservation I have about feeding Raw to the dogs (who LOVED the scoop of homemade cat food I gave them as a test) are the bones and sadly the limited ingredients I can use for my Special Needs Hound.
I have a 14 yr old Walker hound (Forest) who has like no teeth left and was just diagnosed with cushing’s disease but has some pretty abnormal liver tests because of the damage that was done while he went undiagnosed. His liver is so enlarged it displaces his stomach sideways and upwards which makes EASILY digestible food a must. He cannot have food high in phosphorus, copper or ammonia which means little to no red meat and lots of poultry, eggs and pork. He also has problems with chronic Constipation so I would have to be VERY careful about the amount of bone I add to his diet but I also want enough in there to give him the nutrients he needs. Since he is older he also burns a LOT of calories, He is on Vital Fresh pet Turkey or Chicken and gets 1.5 lbs a day. I don’t know what is causing him to burn so many calories except for old age or maybe his body is trying to repair itself – all he does is lounge in the lawn and do his hound dance for food – people or animal whichever he can mac on at the moment lol
My 3 yr old yellow lab (Nova) is also a high calorie burner but she is super active, we do scent tracking, retrieving, and lots of walking/running on the grass. She will go until she drops which I have never seen before, so now I watch her very closely for signs she is over heated. She eats up to 2 lbs of the above dog food a day but is still losing weight on occasion when her activity jumps up again. She has always had double the amount of Eosinophils in her blood that she should at a “normal” rate. She has been checked for parasites so the best I can come up with is that she might have GI issues going on intermittently – she doesn’t transition food gracefully and really doesn’t tolerate even high quality kibble (after research it’s not such a mystery anymore) which is in part what turned me onto Freshpets Vital.
To top it all off I have a Four month old female lab puppy (Ellie) that is still growing. I have her on 2 lbs of Freshpets vital but I am worried that she is not getting something in her diet as well. She has three white lines running across her nails – each nail on every paw. In my experience when the horses have white lines or even indents it means either they were very very sick or have a mineral/vitamin deficiency of some sort. I know when Ellie came to us she had a severe infection of hook and round worms. Her infection was so severe at 8 weeks old that the vet said she would have died untreated – thank you OCD and taking her to the Vet the same day she was brought home lol. They were resistant to the normal worming meds and for 2 months we battled with getting them under control and gone. If Dogs are like horses that would cause the lines because of how sick she was during this (Great going Lemon law Florida) yet I also worry because I know parasites in small animals or even large can cause a huge system imbalance with nutrients which hinders growth.
OK Limited ingredients – because of Forest I have to stick to Chicken, Turkey, and Eggs as a main protein source due to his liver problems and because Rabbit in completely unviable to me unless I want to raise them myself. I have no local butcher – the closest one is three hours away so Chicken and Turkey liver will have to do for organ meat – sometimes I can get chicken hearts once in a blue moon. For Fats I have to choose VERY easily digestible fats from an animal protein because with Forests Liver problems his biliary system can be overloaded very easily and that would be disastrous. Maybe I can add some duck occasionally to his diet?

Copper Issues:
If ammonia restriction is required, feed less red meats and organs since they produce the most ammonia. You may not want to eliminate them entirely though, as they have important nutrients that help with liver function.
Instead, cut back. Feed more poultry, fish, eggs, and pork. If feeding red meat, even in small quantities, buy the absolute best quality you can afford. Preferably grass fed, antibiotic, and hormone free.

Meats generally low in copper are:
• Beef (muscle meat, not organs)
• Eggs
• Turkey (white meat)
• Chicken (white meat)
• Rabbit
• Fish
Meats generally high in copper are:
• Lamb
• Pork
• Pheasant or Quail
• Duck
• Goose
• Salmon
• Organ Meats
When feeding organs for copper issues, some animal livers contain more copper than others. Beef liver is higher in copper than chicken or pork livers. Regardless, the zinc and b vitamins in liver help to reduce the risk of copper toxicity. Though if your dog has an issue with copper, opt for chicken or pork liver. (http://primalpooch.com/raw-feeding-guidelines-dogs-liver-disease/)

I have read Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet and Dr. Pitcairn’s New Complete Guide to Health of Dogs and Cats. I have some major issues with either of the books, UtCaD is so absolute – if you feed this protein then you need this oil. First of all Canola Oil? Corn Oil? Soybean Oil? Walnut oil? Flax and hemp seed oil? I own horses and I would NEVER give them Corn oil with the GMO crap going around I don’t trust Corn or Canola at all. If I am not comfortable feeding to my strict Herbivores I am definitely not OK feeding it to the other animals. By the way the 2,000 lbs animals have had major GI upset from Canola, Corn, Soybean and Flax seed oil. I’ve given it to them in small amounts – 3 tablespoons a day and I have seen a massive systemic effect that made me take them off of it immediately. It was supposed to give them the right ratio of Omega’s 3 and 6 plus help my older guys move and keep weight on since it was winter. The recommended Ratio of 6 to 3 fats are 10:1 to 5:1 for dogs – I have read that small fish or Krill are the best to supplement dogs with because of the low contamination rate and it should not carry Salmon Sickness. Soybean oil is also something I would never give my dogs or humans or anything because of the way it can mimic hormones and interrupt the function of the Thyroid. Also Kelp is recommended a lot, but there are so many negatives that came out during the feeding kelp to horse’s fad that I will not touch the stuff. If it can affect the horses with the amount of iodine to the point horses became toxic I don’t trust the manufactures. It was not that kelp was being fed in large amounts there was absolutely no regulation on what type they harvested or what it contained. Missing link for dogs is a product I am familiar with and they do make it for dogs with trace minerals but it is flax based. Won’t this completely mess up the balancing? Does anyone here feed this instead of kelp?
The Missing Link Ultimate Skin & Coat:
Active Ingredients (per tbsp)
Flaxseed Dried Kelp
Glucosamine Hydrochloride (Vegetarian) Zinc Monomethionine
Freeze Dried Beef Liver Lecithin
Blackstrap Molasses Chromium Yeast
Rice Bran Selenium Yeast
Primary Dried Yeast Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6)
Sunflower Seed Niacin (Vitamin B3)
Dehydrated Alfalfa Garlic Powder
Dried Carrot Yucca Schidigera Extract
Shark Cartilage Powder* Riboflavin (Vitamin B2)
Freeze Dried Fish Protein Powder Thiamine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B1)
Freeze Dried Oyster Powder Folic Acid
Barley Grass Leaves Powder Cobalamin (Vitamin B12)
Guaranteed Analysis Amount
Crude Protein (not less than) 18%
Crude Fat (not less than) 28%
Crude Fiber (not more than) 15%
Moisture (not more than) 10%
Linoleic Acid (Omega 6) 450 mg
**Linolenic Acid (Omega 3) 1000 mg
**Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Cat/Dog food nutrient profiles.

Also if everything is so precise that does not leave room for error such as what if the chickens were raised on Florida soil which is heavy in limestone and deficient in other areas – rather than let’s say somewhere in the bread bowl what about if they were fed a corn based feed and another batch was fed free range? If the meat analysis is different it throws everything off and we all know that meat from south Fl is very different than meat from MI or IN – same principle goes with growing vegetables even organic. How much of a God Factor is there for the abundance of some micronutrients and lack of others? UTCAD also has an abundance of some nutrients way over the NRC guidelines – are dogs different in the fact that they can rid themselves of excess things very easily? I know in humans and horses Vit E and Selenium can be deadly because it builds up in fat and the body doesn’t flush it out like the water-soluble vitamins?
Dr. Pitcairn’s New Complete Guide to Health has a lot of oat meal, rice, beans?! Half and Half milk, whole milk, whole wheat bread corn? That sounds not so great for dogs and especially not for cats like it says it can be. What about kidney beans? With feeding my dogs I have learned they do OK on rice occasionally when they have an upset GI but if they are on a diet with rice too long they get backed up. Also the beans – the dogs seem to have issues with digesting them like people sometimes do – why are there so many carbohydrates? Why cannot I do sprouted microgreens or carrots or even baked potatoes because I know the dogs tolerate those vegetables very well. Also Brewer’s Yeast? Isn’t yeast as a whole bad? It’s in everything and I know Nova already is prone to yeast infections in her ears and when she gets a UTI – Also can Brewer’s yeast cause or attribute to bloat? Milk – isn’t milk products bad if they are in large amounts such as 2 cups milk plus 2 cups rolled oats and 2 eggs and calcium powder? Everything to me seems so skewed.
Also RMB are out of the question – Forest cannot eat them and Nova and Ellie are gulpers – they came from a large litter and it would be just my luck to end up in emergency surgery with one of them. I have a grinder to which I can grind the bone up with the meat and I know the purpose of the bone was for dental health but if I make Meat Jerky and other goodies can I replicate that without worrying about emergency surgery or broken teeth?
Since I own a grinder already for cat food why cannot I grind bones to supplement their food with? So far in my research the basic recipe and consensus I have come across is as follows:
16% Organ meat
10% – 25% Bone
The rest of the food would be muscle meat and muscle meat
Meat is very high in phos and the bone is high in Cal which means the Cal to Phos ratio should be 1.2 to 1.5:1 although 1:1 to 2.5:1 is ok as well. I just need to make sure the dogs consume more Cal than Phos but the question is do I need to add bone meal or can I grind my own bones to supplement?
Here is what the Article analysis the bone content to be in prey animals:
Bone Content In Raw Foods
When sourcing bones for your dog’s diet, it’s a good idea to know the approximate amount of bone in commonly sourced foods. Here is a quick guide to help you keep your dog’s bone content in the right range; between 10% and 25%.
Chicken Whole chicken (not including the head and feet): 25% bone/Leg quarter: 30%/Split breast: 20%/Thigh: 15%/Drumstick: 30%/Wing: 45%/Neck: 36%/Back: 45%/Turkey/Whole turkey: 21%/Thigh: 21%/Drumstick: 20%/Wing: 37%/Neck: 42%/Back: 41%
Pork Feet: 30%/Tails: 30%/Ribs: 30%
Beef Ribs: 52%
Rabbit Whole rabbit (fur and all): 10% Whole (dressed): 25-30%

From this can I remove the proper amount of bones or add more bones in to balance or would you suggest a bone meal powder? Also I have yet to factor in the percentage of vegetable/fruit/microgreens in the recipe – I am just so lost so if HoundDogMom could help or someone else could chime in I would be so grateful. I am trying very hard to learn as much as I can but between the animals and two sick family members and special needs animals by the time I have a moment to sit down I am out like a light for the night or my brain is so frazzled everything looks like it was written in French. Am I over thinking this? I just don’t want to screw Ellie up – she has already had such a bad start with the worm infection – and Forest needs nutrients to rebuild his liver correctly and I wanted to see if this change in diet would help Nova’s Eosinophils come to a normal level. Also has anyone ever seen white lines on every toenail that grows parallel with the skin? Any help would be so appreciated there is just not a lot of room for error with Forest right now with his liver Alt levels 4 times what they are supposed to be. They cannot stay on the Freshpet much longer because to feed the dogs its 19 dollars a day and that’s not a very good long term solution.
Thanks so much everyone~!~ I Hope everyone had a great New Year and wonderful Holiday
`RedMare

[aimee]

Hi Lisa,

So sorry to hear about your lab: ( Increased BUN from diet is tied into protein but it sounds like your dog isn’t eating a lot of protein. Rawhide is a source of protein, but he is off those now. Any other high protein chews you give him consistently? Rawhide contributes calories too so hope the weight loss is from eliminating those from the diet vs something else.

Another source of protein that your vet probably already considered is from bleeding into the gut. This may or may not show up on a regular blood count. A rectic count in addition to the normal blood counts could be done to make sure that constant regeneration isn’t going on.

If this still could be kidney problems from a diet perspective controlled phosphorus levels are recommended in kidney disease. Phosphorus parallels protein which is likely where the rec to avoid high protein comes from.

Sounds like more diagnostics will be needed to sort this out.

[Lisa R]

My 7 year old chocolate lab has had a rising BUN count in his blood. His creatinine level is increasing very slightly, not proportionally in the manner the vet would expect if if we’re kidney disease. Additionally, his BUN continued to go up on RX kidney food and meds. The vet is baffled and doesn’t understand what the issue is.

I think it’s related to his diet in some way. He has always been, as my vet called him, a “fat magnet” since we rescued him 3 years ago. He gained a ton of weight very quickly when he first came to us, despite never being fed table food, etc, and continued to gain on small servings of RX diet food (from not quite 80 lbs to over 100). Currently he is on a very low quantity of weight mgmt IAMS, supplemented with green beans to fill him up. He was losing very little, very slowly and finally showed a big decrease in weight when we eliminated rawhide from his diet (unless it’s kidney disease and it just happens to coincide with the elimination of rawhide).

I think there is some dietary issue and he needs a different kind of food or supplement….maybe there is some intolerance for food we are feeding him and he needs grain free or salmon or freeze dried or something…but I don’t know what to try. The vet is advising against anything high protein in case he does have kidney problems but I’ve reqd every that is not necessarily a factor in kidney isses for dogs. But she doesn’t know what we should try.

Any thoughts?

[Nancy B]

Although pricey, I don’t think you can beat human-grade food like SoJo’s or The Honest Kitchen for senior dogs. I adopt seniors from all backgrounds, and on these foods they become strong, immune to disease, strong heart, lungs, kidneys, and generally thrive. Currently my two rescues are 12 and soon-to-be 13. The oldest is a recovered heart worm girl from the South that I adopted at 9.

[theBCnut]

Since senior dog’s ability to get protein out of their diet decreases by as much as 50%, they need more, not less, high quality protein. Most senior dog foods assume your dog is in advanced stages of kidney disease and decrease the amount of protein. We don’t suggest senior food for healthy seniors. A good quality All Life Stages food is ok for kibble, but canned, raw or fresh is best.

[crazy4cats]

Here is a canned food chart that I found on a Feline Kidney Disease site. It is sorted by phosphorous, but it also contains protein, fat and carb percentages as well on many brands of canned food. http://www.felinecrf.org/canned_food_uk.htm.
Maybe some of you will find this helpful.

[theBCnut]

I’m not sure I would use any of those for a dog with kidney disease. I certainly wouldn’t use any kibble for a dog with kidney disease.

Depending on where your dog is with the disease, he may need no diet change other than getting off of dry, or he may need controlled phosphorus levels, or something else all together.

[crazy4cats]

Hi Christian-
Unfortunately, I’m of little to no help at all, but I’d like to bump up your question. The resident kidney disease expert, Shawna, hasn’t posted for a while. We’ll see if we can get someone else with some knowledge interested. Curious, however, what are you feeding your dog right now? What stage of kidney disease is it in? Also, has your vet given you any advise on what to feed? Such as, protein, phosphorous or fat levels? I wish you well on your quest for a few good recommendations!

[Christian P]

Hi,

I’m looking to get some advice on which food from the editors choice list would you recommend for a dog with kidney disease?

Thank you

[theBCnut]

These sites are geared towards humans and you may want to google more for yourself, because it really is a wonderful tool, but they should give you the info you are looking for.
http://www.davita.com/kidney-disease/diet-and-nutrition/lifestyle/handpicked-low-phosphorus-foods-for-a-kidney-diet/e/7475
http://www.davita.com/kidney-disease/diet-and-nutrition/lifestyle/15-kidney-friendly-protein-foods-for-keeping-albumin-up/e/7804
http://healthyeating.sfgate.com/phosphorus-restricted-diet-ideas-2319.html

[theBCnut]

Phosphorous is a mineral that is in meat. Some meats have more than others. Phosphorous is only a problem when certain diseases are already present. It is not hard on healthy kidneys, either human or canine.

[Sarah Y]

Yes, dehydration can affect BUN. One of the side effects for a kidney failure pet is dehydration. It’s one of the things our vet looks for in our cat every time we bring her in for a check up. Also it can lead to hypertension.

There is controvery on low/high protein diets with regards to kidney disease. The one thing that researchers agree on is keeping the pet on a low phosphorus diet. That’s across the board. You will find that more recent studies show that high protein diets may be more useful in pets with renal disease.

Although I disagree with my vet a bit, I still have to trust that she’s doing the best she can in making sure my cat has a longer quality of life. I do believe that renal prescription diets work, but I also know that I hate the ingredients thrown in there. My cat is eating the food so that’s a positive in our favor.

I’ll share some articles, but keep in mind that vets really rely on veterinary articles:

http://www.wysong.net/pet-health-and-nutrition/high-protein-kidney-disease.php

/best-dog-foods/low-protein-dog-foods/

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmth/small_animal/nutrition/client_info_sheets/chronic_renal_disease.cfm

http://dogaware.com/health/kidneyprotein.html

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/ClientED/ckd.aspx

http://championpetfoods.com/files//Myths_of_High_Protein.pdf

Hopefully these help a bit….if you dog does have early signs, it’s great you caught it early!

[theBCnut]

A major issue with seniors is kidney disease, so I would suggest a diet rich in moisture. At 13, she deserves to eat something she likes.

And as for the vets, they are not nutritionists, so they frequently suggest foods based on who pays for tons of research. And they frequently treat syptoms rather than look for causes. Holistic vets are much more likely to look for the cause of an issue and more likely to pay attention to optimal diet.

[Amanda Y]

I recently started making my 8 lb, 7 y.o. boy’s food. He has kidney disease and I know it’s important to incorporate calcium in his diet & I’ve chosen to do that with eggshells. All of the recipes suggest grinding them to a powder in a coffee grinder, which I don’t have. If I just crush them up with my fingers he scarfs them down (even by themselves, I discovered when I accidently dropped some on the floor). So, is there a reason that I need to grind them up? Thanks for any help!

[Susan]

Hi Kristin, Welcome….Yes, Ive read Lew Olsons book, it’s excellent, I love how she has a food section for health problems, (Pancreatitis, IBD, Heart Disease, Kidney Disease etc) I dont use raw but when I started to cook I got most of my ideas from her book, also she has a yahoo group its in her book…
scroll down to the bottom of this page & click on “Contact Us” then click on “How can I add a custom image to my personal profile?” then you’ll see the link to create your free Gravatar…

[Cindy L]

I have a 7 month old Lab that has loose stools and just had his 2nd UTI which was found when I took him in to be fixed (very early). First one was at 8 weeks old! Switched him over 10 days to Wellness core puppy, green mucus and smell to high heaven loose stools. Went to Nature Variety Instinct Rabbit, better but not good. Both have a Probiotic called Enterococcus Faecium which I have found others have a problem with! Found out Nature’s variety has removed it from new formula’s! Went to Annamaet Aqualuk which was good but still loose. Vet found in bloodwork he has the start of kidney disease which he hopes my puppy might grow out of but wants him on a under 30 protein, low phosphorus, around .7, low ash, low magnesium, grainfree, potato free, lower carb, 6-7 ph, diet. Only one I found is Zignature grainfree Duck w/ no Probiotics. 2nd choice Canine Caviar(much higher priced) Open sky or wilderness(vet doesnt’t want red meats right now though) or new formula Nature’s variety instinct LID Rabbit but the ash is higher. Just a thought for you…seems Probiotics can cause problems in some dogs! I am at my wits end over this and have spend alot of time researching foods and calling companies….will be starting him on Zignature this week.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 3 months ago by Cindy L.

[Cindy L]

OMG! I am so glad I ran across this! I have a 7 months old Lab puppy I have been having issues with since I got him at 8 weeks old! Rushed to Vet the day after bringing home and had a UTI. First food I put him on was Wellness Core Puppy, 10 day slow transfer and within two weeks massive green slime and stunk to high heaven. Went to Nature’s Variety Instinct Rabbit (old formula) and better but still not good. Both have Enterococcus Faecium in them!!! Went to Annamaet and no green slime but still loose. Nature’s Variety seems to have taken this out of the new formula’s so I think there is something they found out too! Took my puppy in to be fixed and TG I had them run bloodwork and urine check and he now is showing signs of early kidney disease and had another UTI! Vet is hoping he out grows this but wants me to go with an under 30 protein, low Phosphorus, low ash, low magnesium, low eggs, grainfree, NO Probiotics dog food for now. The only one I can find is Zignature grainfree Duck which I will be getting this week. The other one I like is Horizon Pulsar Fish which has very few Probiotics and NO Enterococcus Faecium in it plus I can go back to Nature’s Variety Instinct LID Duck if I make sure it’s the new formula…thoughts anybody?

[Sarah Y]

have you checked out http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidney.html. I find these a great place to find more info on diets, prescription and non prescription for dogs with kidney disease/failure.

My one dog is eating wellness senior food which is one of the lower commerical foods out there with low phosphorus (.74%) It’s still higher than the diet foods though. Also, keep in mind, what doesn’t seem tasty to you may be tasty to your dog. Wouldn’t hurt to try it.

One of my cats is in renal failure and she loves her can food (Hills K/D prescription)

[2nd2none]

to clarify, i said this….” the unnecessary protein in the feed these days????? if anything it’s more HARMful, “….. i didn’t say it was more harmful [to the kidneys], HDM. nor did i mention any thing about renal failure. and as with all things, everyone has an opinion on the subject, based on one study or another, or, whose POV they find most convincing.
case in point: (in fact) 2 of the 5 footnotes on this very subject, in this site, are from the 1990’s, another is 7 years old. outdated to some, perhaps, but convincing to others… belief is a matter of choice

my source came from the 2010 edition of the Merek Vet Manual. http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/management_and_nutrition/nutrition_small_animals/nutritional_requirements_and_related_diseases_of_small_animals.html#v3328611

but thank you for your opinion.
imo, if something in a dog’s body is not being utilized and due to the extra amount given, is causing something else in the dog’s body to overwork, to compensate for that, why even give it in the first place?

and best wishes to the op’s dog. hoping things have improved since july

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi 2nd2none –

The idea that only active dogs require more protein is a myth. In fact, strenuous activity has only a marginal impact on dietary protein requirements.

From “Basic Animal Nutrition and Feeding” 5th Ed.:

“Rennie and Tipton (2000), in a review of this subject [the effect of strenuous exercise on protein and amino acid metabolism], reported that sustained exercise stimulates amino acid oxidation (chiefly branched chain) for gluconeogenesis and possibly affects regulation of acid-base balance, resulting in a short-term net loss of tissue protein due to decreased synthesis and increased degradation. Protein synthesis rebounds quickly following rest. The data indicate that exercise does not increase the dietary protein requirement; in fact, efficiency of protein metabolism may be improved as a result of exercise.”

Higher protein does not equate to more calories when in fact the opposite is true. Protein contains 4 kcal. per gram, carbohydrates contain 4 kcal. per gram and fat contains 9 kcal. per gram. Exchanging carbohydrate for protein does not change the caloric density of the food and exchanging fat with protein would actually decrease the caloric density of the food.

From “Focusing on Protein in the Diet” by T.J. Dunn Jr. DVM:

“Extra carbohydrate intake, above the immediate needs of the dog (which occurs often with grain-based diets) prompts internal enzyme factors to store that extra carbohydrate (sugar) as fat. Give that same dog extra protein and it is excreted through the kidneys and NOT stored as fat. Knowing this, what do you think would make a better “weight loss diet” for a dog … one with grain as the main ingredient or one with a protein-rich meat source as the main ingredient?”

It’s also a myth that excess protein (beyond what is necessary to meet the dog’s amino acid requirements) harms the kidneys. It is the job of the kidneys to excrete wastes and in a healthy animal, the kidneys are fully able to do this.

From “Small Animal Clinical Nutrition” 4th ed.:

“Feeding protein above requirements or recommendations for healthy dogs and cats does not result in toxicity because the excess amino acids from the protein are catabolized and the waste nitrogen is excreted.”

From “Focusing on Protein in the Diet” by T.J. Dunn Jr. DVM:

“The very early research that pointed a finger at protein as being a cause of kidney failure in dogs wasn’t even done on dogs! It was done on rats fed unnatural diets for a rodent — diets high in protein. (Were we tinkering with Nature during these “tests”?) Rats have difficulty excreting excess protein in their diets because they are essentially plant eaters, not meat eaters. Dogs are quite able to tolerate diets with protein levels higher than 30 percent on a dry weight basis. Dogs are meat eaters; that’s how Nature made them!”

From “Kirk’s Veterinary Therapy XIII, Small Animal Practice” p. 861:

“…restriction of protein intake does not alter the development of renal lesions nor does it preserve renal function. Considering these (research) findings, the authors do not recommend reduction of dietary protein in dogs with renal disease or reduced renal function in order to achieve renoprotective effects.”

[InkedMarie]

I’ve used Darwin’s & was very happy with it. I can’t help with your dog with kidney disease but I would call Darwin’s & ask to speak to James.

[losul]

C4C, Bobby dog, Thnx. I agree about getting more back to basics. Hopefully more manufactur’s will lean more that way in the future. It’s mind boggling to me how many dogs are having allergies, intolerances, etc., and how many folks have so much trouble finding foods that are agreeable, out of the hundreds of foods out there. Is shouldn’t be that way, and why do so many dogs seem to have these allergies in the first place, I think it’s unnatural. 10 years and more ago, I thought it was very rare for dogs to have allergies, now it seems to be very commonplace. (or maybe I was just in the dark back then, well I know I was in the dark, lol. ). All of the botanicals in Origen are what have kept me from trying so far. C4C, I hear ya on the funny looks!

Naturella, I hesitate to advise you how much to give your dog and whether or not to give it at all, I almost feel like it would be medical advice. For one thing there’s such a variance in the size of cloves, and another some dogs would be more sensitve than others. The health and and nutrition of your dog could also be a factor. Your dog is very small, and only about 1/3 the weight of mine. I give mine about 1 1/2 large cloves per week, they average about 4 grams each clove. It’s crushed and mixed in with 4 days worth of food. For the next 4 days batch, I leave garlic out of it, the next, garlic again, and so forth. I think I give him less than most sites advocating it advise, I would never give him so much that he has would have garlic breath to much extent, and well, if I would ever notice that he would actually begin to exude the odor from his skin, I feel that would be entirely too much and could be dangerous. If you do decide to use garlic so, just to be precautionary, start out tiny, like just a small slice of a clove, and make sure there isn’t any kind of intolerance or allergic reaction first. I wouldn’t think 1 small/medium sized clove a week, distributed in several meals would be too much for your dog. I know I wasn’t much help, sorry…. BTW, I can almost smell the food a cookin! MMmmmm garlic toast, Luv feta cheese, olive oil, and balsamic vinegar on my tomato slices!

Aimee, Wow you exuded garlic fragrances for 3 days after just eating 1 meal with some? Are you sure you didn’t take a large doggy bag home with you and indulge several times? 😀

I didn’t mean to imply that all mammals have equal susceptabilities, just that they have the same suceptibilties.

I think the papers desribing garlic use for sickle cell anemia used aged garlic extract (AGE). Many of the compounds and properties were changed by the aging or fermenting process, no? At any rate garlic and it’s many compounds have a whole lot of medicinal possibilities wouldn’t you think?

It’s hard to come by actual research on humans, it’d be very unethical to try to induce hemolytic anemia in humans. There seems to be lots of it on various mammals, cats, rats/mice, dogs, cows, horses, sheep, birds, etc. Some of what I’ve seen is merely anecdotal, such as a professor and some students informally volunteered to eat an abnormal amount of onions ( i think it was 2 medim/large, cooked, daily) for a period of 5 days, they all displayed physical signs of anemia, and upon blood testing indeed showed that to be the case.

Here is a study where the researchers where attempting to test the effects of certain native vegetables that could mitigate garlics unwanted effects on Nigerians. The actual study was done with rats, but as I said….;

“Garlic (Allium sativum) is popularly consumed in Nigeria because of its health benefit in treatment and management of several disease conditions. However, excessive intake of garlic may cause hemolytic anemia. This project sought to investigate the ability of some commonly consumed tropical green leafy vegetables—namely, Amaranthus cruentus, Baselia alba, Solanum macrocarpon, Ocimum gratissimum, and Corchorus olitorius—to prevent garlic-induced hemolytic anemia.”

http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/jmf.2004.7.498

———————————————-

Is this the study that brought about AVMA’s determination that garlic should not be fed to dogs?

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/ajvr.2000.61.1446

Objective—To determine whether dogs given garlic extract developed hemolytic anemia and to establish the hematologic characteristics induced experimentally by intragastric administration of garlic extract.

Animals—8 healthy adult mixed-breed dogs.

Procedure—4 dogs were given 1.25 ml of garlic extract/kg of body weight <b>(5 g of whole garlic/kg) intragastrically once a day for 7 days.</b> The remaining 4 contol dogs received water instead of garlic extract. Complete blood counts were performed, and methemoglobin and erythrocyte-reduced glutathione concentrations, percentage of erythrocytes with Heinz bodies, and percentage of eccentrocytes were determined before and for 30 days after administration of the first dose of garlic extract. Ultrastructural analysis of eccentrocytes was performed.

Results—Compared with initial values, erythrocyte count, Hct, and hemoglobin concentration decreased to a minimum value on days 9 to 11 in dogs given garlic extract. Heinz body formation, an increase in erythrocyte- reduced glutathione concentration, and eccentrocytes were also detected in these dogs. However, no dog developed hemolytic anemia.

Conclusions and Clinical Relevance—The constituents of garlic have the potential to oxidize erythrocyte membranes and hemoglobin, inducing hemolysis associated with the appearance of eccentrocytes in dogs. Thus, foods containing garlic should not be fed to
dogs. Eccentrocytosis appears to be a major diagnostic feature of garlic-induced hemolysis in dogs. (Am J Vet Res 2000;61:1446–1450)
—————

Some notes about this; At the rate I give Turbo, it would take 2 years to give my dog the equivalent of what the researchers gave these dogs all in 1 week. The second paragraph gives plenty enough to be concerned about, but “However, no dog developed hemolytic anemia”

————————————————————–
I’m amazed you would not be concerned about feeding a dog grape pomace, when as far as I know, the causitive agent of grapes/kidney failure has yet to be determined.

[USA]

Hi MastiffMomma

I know you are worried about calories but I feel that calories can always be adjusted by the AMOUNT of food you feed. For me it’s all about the carbs for a dog with Diabetes. Diabetes can be a devastating disease in people and dogs so my top priority would be to cut carbohydrates to below 15%. Commercial dog food companies have taken a different approach. Because starch is cheaper than protein they will try to use low glycemic starches and fibers to slow down the absorption of the carbs and avoid a spike in blood sugar (glucose). That would be fine if dogs needed a lot of carbs to survive. Since they don’t it makes much more sense to cut the ingredient that ALL diabetics have a problem with, SUGAR in any shape or form!

There are only 3 basic nutrient groups, Protein, Fat and Carbohydrate so a food that is low in carbs will be high in protein and fat. This is okay for MOST dogs. Some dogs will have a problem with high fats and some dogs will have a problem with high protein.

I would always unless there is a medical issue with fat or protein try a ultra-low carbohydrate food first. Without a doubt carbohydrates are the enemy to a dog with diabetes and cutting carbs can increase both the quality of life and the length of life for a diabetic dog.

Dry food kibbles need starch to hold them together so the lowest you can go in carbs is about 15% and most kibbles are MUCH higher. I estimate that the dry food he is eating now is 50% carbs. Dry foods can also tax the kidneys because they are so concentrated and low in moisture. Kidneys are one of the first things to be affected by diabetes so dry foods are not my first choice. I have listed a couple of dry foods because whatever food you choose to feed has to fit your lifestyle as well as your mom’s.

/dog-food-reviews/evo-dog-food-dry/
http://www.midamericapetfood.com/victordogfood/pdf/Brochure-GF-Ultra%20Pro.pdf

Canned foods do not need starches to hold them together so they can go all the way down to 1% carbohydrates on a caloric basis. They can also be of a higher quality due to less processing and and a more natural moisture content. The canned foods I have listed below are all below 10% carbs but their fat content is high.

/dog-food-reviews/evo-dog-food-canned/
/dog-food-reviews/wellness-dog-food-core-canned/
/dog-food-reviews/tripett-dog-food/
/dog-food-reviews/by-nature-95-percent-meat/
/dog-food-reviews/castor-pollux-ultramix-grain-free-canned/

Remember that any changes in diet will require a change in the amount of insulin your Mom’s dog will receive. Lowering Carbs will require you to lower the amount of insulin your mom’s dog gets on a daily basis. Changes should be made slowly and gradually and with the help of a VET. Home monitoring of the dog’s blood sugar will greatly help you to manage the dog’s diabetes.

It’s nice that you are looking out for your mom and her dog!!!

[Gail W]

I don’t have recommendations for tasty food, but can offer a short synopsis of our experience. We supported our Yorkie for the last 6 of his 16 years. We were able to keep him otherwise healthy, happy and maintained a solid quality of life with this disease. It was found early and we managed it aggressively with meds, food, and supplements. Started with KD kibble to KD moist as he aged and condition progressed over the years. He ultimately hated all the KD moist foods and we worked with a vet nutritionist at NCSU to develop recipes made at home – she created formulas that had interchangeable ingredients in case he became bored/picky (as opposed to anorexic from uremia). The addition of Azodyl seemed to help early on. He was switched from enalapril to benazepril, as it is supposedly easier on the kidneys, in addition to other meds. In talking to a holistic vet, they usually give an herbal supplement with enalopril to help protect the kidneys (I can’t remember which one). As you mentioned, phosphorus was the biggest thing we watched for – egg whites only & other lower phosphorus proteins. Each dog is different, but you know your pup best. Watch for changes and address quickly. Best of luck with Kelci!

[DogFoodie]

I’ll let Shawna, our resident expert on kidney disease, know that you could use her help.

Also have you ever considered a raw diet? Darwin’s has one formulated by Dr. Barbara Royal. They’re also happy to work with your vet on getting the best diet for your dog.

[Brenda P]

Our 9+ year old Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, Kelci, has been diagnosed with protein losing nephropathy and her Urine protein:creatinine ratio is pretty high at 3.3 (normal should be >.05). Her Blood Albumin level is also low. All other kidney values are within normal ranges, so she has not advanced to uremia. The vet has started her on enalapril and there has already been a significant improvement after just two weeks with the protein:creatinine ratio having dropped to .09. The problem is that the vet has prescribed a low protein diet and I’m not in agreement, especially since Kelci walks away from the yucky Hill’s KD, and this pup will typically eat anything. She will approve of a moderate protein diet, but I’m having a very difficult time sifting through all of the information. I’m more concerned about low phosphorous and sodium (her blood pressure is high). Can anyone recommend a high-quality commercial food that is readily available at the pet supplies that carry the better brands?

BTW, we have two other dogs in the house and they are eating and loving Taste of the Wild kibble. I don’t mind continuing them on that and feeding Kelci a special diet, I just need a recommendation quickly for Kelci.

Thanks in advance,
Brenda P

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Dane –

First off, if he’s drinking large amounts of water, urinating frequently and he won’t gain weight you need to get him to the vet to have some diagnostic tests performed. These are potential symptoms of kidney disease or diabetes. A dog that’s fed a raw diet shouldn’t drink much water at all – my two (large) dogs don’t even drink one bowl of water per day between the two of them. I’m not trying to scare you but if something is going on the sooner you catch it the better the prognosis will be.

Second, are you adding anything to the Blue Ridge Beef grinds? Unless they’ve recently come out with a new complete and balanced product that I’m not aware of, I thought they just make meat/organ/bone grinds? Meat/organ/bone “grinds” (as they’re referred to) are not a balanced diet. They’re meant to serve as as the base of a meal and they make things simpler by already having the muscle meat, organ and bone in the correct proportions. Supplements still must be added to make the diet complete. While it’s possible to balance a homemade diet using whole foods only, for simplicity’s sake and to get him on a balanced diet as soon as possible, I’d recommend adding a multivitamin (look for one with <10% DV calcium – one I frequently recommend is Twinlab Daily One Caps). I’d also add 1/2 C. of cooked and pureed vegetables (baby food veggies are fine if you don’t want to cook and puree them yourself) and feed a tin of sardines or salmon once or twice a week OR add a capsule or two of fish oil daily. These additions will provide him with the vitamins and minerals he needs, a little fiber and omega 3 fatty acids.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 6 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.
• This reply was modified 11 years, 6 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Darenka]

While I do a rotational diet switching between dog foods, everyone in my house gets the same dog food from 6 month old to 15-year senior. It makes my life easier and unless there is a specific reason (allergies, kidney, liver disease or such) there is little compelling reason to keep numerous bags of dog food around–everyone benefits from good protein no matter what the age. Blood work on seniors is perfect even with proteins in the 30%+ category. They just get fed less to make up for a more sedate pace. Does the Foxhound get fed prior to exercise or gulp his food? If the throwing up continues, talk to your vet and rule out an illness.

[Susan]

Hi, Poor boy, I have Auto Immune Disease, (C.R.E.S.T) at first the Dr’s thought I had Lupus but as the years have gone by symptoms for C.R,E,S,T seem to fit more then the Lupus, its an awful disease, the steroids made me feel worst, dizzy sick, I was on the Presidone, Ive stopped all my tablets & I feel better, but do get very tired & have to have a afternoon sleep also make sure he doesnt stress in anyway, when I stress my body starts attacking my organs especially my kidneys…
One of Patches vets seems to think that Patch may have Auto Immune Disease cause last year after his vaccinations he became ill again, so you may have to do alot of research about giving him his vaccinations, Im not doing Patches Vaccination when due in 3 years…Yahoo has a good group run by Lew Olson PhD that has written a book called “Raw & Natural Nutrition for dogs, her group is called “Dog Nutrition & Health’ or K9Nutrition Lew Olson, she is excellent for asking questions on Auto Immune disease in dogs, she believes that Raw is best or cooked meals not kibble…she has a section in her book what to cook for Auto Immune disease in dogs…..
Carol D nothing causes Auto Immune Disease that they know of, stress can bring it on if you have it, Dr’s have told me that I inherited the disease but no one else in my family has it, my nanna or her mother never had it but back in the old days they didnt know much about alot of illnesses, so they may of had it, also the Dr said that I would of inherited Auto Immune Disease from my dads side not my mum side..

[Susan C]

My dog almost died before we discovered he has AUTOIMMUNE disease. A life on Steroids means eventual kidney failure. We hope that a diet change will increase the chance of a normal life. He needs additional omega 3 and 6 plus zinc and more that I am not familiar with. Happy to make him dinner, but if there is a dog food that moves us in the right direction, I can at least supplement what I feed him now.
Help!

• This topic was modified 11 years, 6 months ago by Susan C.

[zcRiley]

Try Acana Singles. One protein source (& one source of fruit) as opposed to five of each. Tummy sensory overload. I’d stay far & clear from Purina, or anything 4-star and under. Why? Always look for controversial ingredients that could trigger your dog because it’s not the protein amount. You can do an allergy testing on your pup to be sure (especially if vomiting is involved).

If your dog eats too much protein, some will be excreted in the urine and the rest will be used as calories or converted to fat – causing your dog no harm. However, if your dog has an EXISTING kidney problem, high protein diets are not recommended. High protein cannot cause kidney disease.

My AmStaff pups were born straight into Orijens. Sometimes, I mixed in Merrick, Horizon & Evanger’s to keep it fun. Now at 1 yrs of age, I mix in a little 6Fish (they love that strong smell) & I sprinkle in Cosequin or Omega chews. They are very strong & agile, zero fat, all muscle.

[Shawna]

Great advice BCnut!! 🙂

Hi Kayley L,

BCnut is absolutely correct. Kibble is the absolute WORST thing you can feed a dog with kidney disease. My dog was born with kidney disease, diagnosed at age one and will be eight years old next month. She has been on HIGH protein raw her whole life. Much higher than 30% even. Her raw diet (I rotate between proteins and brands) ranges from 45 to 54% on a dry matter basis.

The original research suggesting protein was problematic was actually done on rats not dogs or cats. Later research, done on dogs, has disproven the original research but for some reason vets cling to this original research. Nutritionist Mary Straus has some different sources discussing the protein myth on her page here http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidneyprotein.html

Phosphorus can be a probelm at any stage of the disease but it isn’t always a problem in the earlier stages. Audrey, in her eight years with kidney disease, has never been on a lower phosphorus diet. Mary lists generally accepted amounts of phosphorus in the diet for the different stages of the disease on this page. http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidneydiet.html#start

When digested, proteins break down into amino acids. The body uses those amino acids to make antioxidants (glutathione), enzymes, new cells etc. What the body doesn’t use ends up as blood urea nitrogen. How well the body uses the amino acids in any particular protein is called bioavailability. I noticed last night that Dr. Foster’s and Smith website has a good explanation of protein bioavailability. They write
“Can I tell which proteins are better than others?
Not all proteins are created equal, and some are better for pets than others. Every protein source contains different levels of amino acids and each protein is different in its ability to be broken down into amino acids. The ability of a protein to be used by the body and its amount of usable amino acids is termed biological value. Egg has the highest biological value and sets the standard by which other proteins are judged. Egg has a biological value of 100. Fish meal and milk are close behind with a value of 92. Beef is around 78 and soybean meal is 67. Meat and bone meal and wheat are around 50 and corn is 45. Things like hair and feathers would be very high in protein but would be down at the bottom of the list for biological value.” http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?aid=459

Removing chemicals in the environment that have to be cleared through the kidneys can help too. These chemicals may not be harmful but as another thing for the kidneys to clear they still can be problematic. Anything that could be inhaled or get absorbed through the paw could be potential problems. Giving clean (filtered) water can be very important too.

Mary has some really good info on her site if you get a chance to read through it all. Nutritionist Lew Olson of b-naturals.com also has some data on her site (along with a couple recipes). Darwin’s has a high protein, lower phosphorus raw diet that was formulated by Dr. Barbara Royal DVM if interested in raw but not wanting to have to prepare it.

There’s so much more that you can do as well. Let us know if you are interested in the additional info.

Thanks BCnut! 🙂

• This reply was modified 11 years, 7 months ago by Shawna.

[theBCnut]

Dogs with kidney issues need to be on canned or raw food. Getting moisture into their diets is most important. The reason that vets always jump on the protein issue is that protein contains phosphorus and excess phosphorus can cause problems in advaned stages of kidney disease. You do not need to restrict protein in early stages, but the protein needs to be good quality and less processed, which kibble is not. I’ll see if I can get Shawna to come to the forum side and help you.

[Shawna]

Hi Lorraine B.,

The stage of the disease, and complicating factors, is the determining factor as to what types of diet are appropriate and not. Vets are often quick to recommend a prescription kidney diet when it is not really the best option. Example, Royal Canin states that the RC MP Modified food is designed for “late stage” kd.
“Royal Canin Veterinary Diet Renal LP Modified Dry Dog Food is a palatable, high energy, and highly digestible diet that has been formulated to aid in the management of late stage chronic kidney disease in adult dogs.” http://www.chewy.com/dog/royal-canin-veterinary-diet-renal-lp/dp/33956?utm_source=google-product&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=f&utm_content=179&utm_term=&gclid=CJyTl_PZl74CFbTm7AodKyIA1w

And, in my opinion, the ingredients in the kibbled diet are HORRIFIC for any dog but really bad for a dog with kd. The goal when feeding a kd dog is to feed “high quality protein”. The proteins used in this food (corn gluten meal and wheat gluten) are anything but “high quality”.

The canned food is a bit better but still may be too low in protein for the early stages of the disease. In the earlier stages it is often not necessary (OR ADVISABLE) to lower protein. But it is important to feed high quality proteins and to potentially limit the amount of phosphorus.

My pup has had kidney disease for eight years (as of next month) and this is a food I would NEVER feed her for any reason.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 7 months ago by Shawna.