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  • Bobby dog
    Member

    Hi Amy K:
    If you are happy with your dry food I would continue to feed it. I would only suggest trying out a few brands to find other choices she does well on in case of a recall, formula changes, or distribution issues; you never know when you may need a back-up. I would also stick with similar protein, fat, and fiber percentages when trying a new kibble.

    I feed a variety of canned foods in various price ranges. My budget friendly choices are Pure Balance stews or gravy tubs (Wal-Mart), Variety stews, Beyond grain free stews, Pro Plan Naturals, Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover’s Soul, Triumph turkey or puppy recipes, BJ’s price club brand, and Tractor Supply stews or Sr. pate’. Costco also has a budget friendly canned, Kirkland Signature Nature’s Domain. You have to buy a case which is under $20. If you don’t have a Costco membership Jet.com sells it for a little more, but still a great deal.

    Other brands my dog does well on are Wellness Core, Red Barn Stews, Tiki Dog, Weruva, Eagle Pack, Fromm shredded recipes, Halo, Life’s Abundance, Holistic Select, Nature’s Recipe, Nutrisource, and Precise. I order Life’s Abundance directly from their website.

    Good luck finding a new food!

    Laurie W
    Member

    When I searched the brand name, I found a 5 star review for RAWZ dry food, yet it’s not on the June Editor’s Choice List. Confusing. Please comment. Thanks!

    anonymously
    Member

    Orijen and Nutrisca for dry food are my favorites, check Chewy.com. For a reasonably priced wet food/topper, check out Newman Organics.
    Your dog is a senior and therefore prone to developing bladder stones (breed) so I would soak her kibble in water prior to serving and maybe add a splash of water especially if she is not a water drinker. Make sure she gets out for frequent bathroom breaks/opportunities to urinate.
    Also, check her teeth and get a cleaning and extractions if needed. Brush her teeth daily (see YouTube for how to videos)

    PS: I just reread your post, if you want to feed only dry, presoak the kibble in water overnight, it will be soft, easy to chew and digest. If the food you are using agrees with her, then stick with it. You can always add a bit of scrambled egg or cooked chopped up lean meat/chicken (no bones)
    Has she had a senior workup? Ask the vet that examines her what he recommends.

    • This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by anonymously.
    Amy K
    Member

    Hello all,

    I have a sweet 9 year old miniature american eskimo dog that I adopted last year.

    As I said in the title, I am happy with her dry food (Nature’s Select Cold Water Recipe), as it has helped to clear up problems with her nose (pemphigus or discoid lupus). That said, I am still open to suggestions.

    As for her wet food, I started buying Beneful in the 3oz can – 3 packs when my refrigerator was broken. She really likes them, but I would like to switch her to something better for her, especially since she had cancer last year.

    She eats a mixture of wet and dry food, and though I wish I could switch her to all dry, she only has 10 teeth left.

    Does anyone have suggestions for a good wet food (or good wet and dry food) that they would recommend?

    #86880

    In reply to: Puppy Food

    Nancy H
    Member

    Mike,

    Thank you.. I looked at the list. if you could give me your top 5 I would appreciate it.

    Shar Pei’s need grain free for allergies. I had my last two on Orjens freeze dry and they had no problems until my male got kidney disease and I lost him a couple of months ago..
    šŸ™ and my female has a sour stomach so I have to feed her Royal Canin Intestinal dog food from my vet. I also have to give her an anti acid 2 times a day and Benadryl for her allergies. I also give her 5 bites of plain yogurt that seems to help with her stomach too.

    So any help would be appreciated.
    Thank you,
    Nancy Horkey

    #86853
    Susan
    Participant

    Hi, my Patch was weeing blood when I rescued him & he was put on the Royal Canine S/O Urinary, wet & dry, google Royal Canine S/O Urinary wet & dry & have a look at the ingredients, I’m pretty sure the S/O wet doesn’t have chicken, If your dog can’t eat chicken then the Hills will be no good.. Hills love using cheap byproduct chicken in all their products, Patch only had to be on the Royal Canine S/O for 6 weeks, no other foods & the R/C S/O dissolved all his crystals, he had an ultra scan & all crystals were gone…
    When your boy is on the Royal Canine S/O start looking for another food that he can start eating after the 6 weeks…..your better off feeding wet foods & no kibble for urinary problems..
    A lot vets don’t have a clue when it comes to food, one of Patches vet prescribe a vet diet & it had corn, wheat & chicken & he knew Patch can’t eat corn, wheat or chicken he has IBD & Skin allergies… Vets don’t even know what ingredients are in these crappy vet diets…You can take back the Hills its money back guaranteed…

    Kelly P
    Member

    Your situation sounds very similar to mine. I have a 13 yr old mini Schnauzer and had heard several bad things about the food I was feeding her. Always dry food, no table scraps, etc. I finally got that smack in the face that your dog is getting old when she started collapsing if she got wound up. Sure enough, she’s got an enlarged heart and nothing we can do other than a few meds to stave it off as long as possible. My first Schnauzer suffered from the same thing.

    But, the news about the other brand, her prognosis and her age made me think it was time to switch. I went with Wellness Core small breed and she ate it at first as I was mixing it up with her old food so as to ease the transition. That was fine but once I got to 100% Wellness she would sniff it and walk away. I even pulled the Nick Nolte “Doen and Out in Beverly Hills” trick where I stuck my face in the bowl. It actually works, but I can’t do that every meal.

    Eventually at some point during the day, she would eat it. I suppose she was just hungry! Kind of like when you’re on a road trip and you stop at a place you’d usually speed up to get past.

    Anyway, I made my decisions based on the recommendations here, I just recently tried Orijen Senior Formula. It’s not a small breed food, so the kibble is bigger. I put the Wellness in 1/2 the bowl and Orijen on the other side. She was all over the Orijen and left an almost perfect line where the Wellness was. I also bought a little 4 lb bag of Merrick Grain Free Real Buffalo & Sweet Potato if the Orijen didn’t work.

    Like you, I think she likes bigger chunks and that Wellness was pretty small. Unfortunately, I don’t have any other data or info to share. The Orijen is not cheap by a long shot, but the people on this forum aren’t here because we value savings over health and well being of our dogs.

    InkedMarie
    Member

    I would skip dry food and if you absolutely must feed dry, reduce the amount and add some canned plus water. It is important your dog get enough moisture and have ample opportunities to urinate. Good luck!

    Susan
    Participant

    Hi, I would STOP feeding any kibble, when I first rescued my boy, he was weeing blood & had ultra scan & he had crystals, he was then desexed & put on the Royal Canine wet tin & dry kibble S/O Urinary for just 6 weeks to dissolve his crystal, I was lucky his crystal dissolved after eating the Royal Canine S/O vet diet, the vet said his crystals would of been from being used for breeding, the vet then said, I feel real sorry for the dogs he was breed with….

    I would start feeding a raw diet, no kibble or change the brands she has been eating, kibble isn’t good for dogs, wet moist foods are heaps better for dogs with bladder problems…
    Here’s a raw diet just have a look at the foods that the Naturopath recommends to feed, for vegetable I read feed lentils, chickpeas, sweet potatoes, spinach & string beans…You can email Jacqueline Rudan & ask her questions she emails back & she does consults overseas on Skype…
    http://naturalanimalsolutions.com.au/Shop/2016/03/15/acidifying-diet-urinary-crystals/

    anonymously
    Member

    Please check the search engine here for “struvite” “bladder stones” or click on my avatar and read my posts on this subject , this topic comes up about once a week.
    However, I am not a veterinarian, so please check with your vet before making any changes to your dog’s treatment.
    I wouldn’t mess with supplements, keep the diet simple.
    There are prescription meds that your vet could subscribe after surgery if her condition is stubborn. I would ask about that.

    Example: /forums/search/struvite/

    There is NO magic supplement. The trick is to add water to each meal 3-4 small meals per day soaked in water, don’t measure, just fill the small bowl, the dog will lap it up to get to the food.
    The dog must be taken out to void (pee) ideally every 2 hours during the day. At bedtime and first thing in the morning. Stagnant conditions in the bladder are conducive to stone formation.
    There is nothing wrong with Royal Canin Urinary SO. If you get the dry, soak it in water overnight then add water too. Once the dog is stable, few months to a year, you can talk to your vet about adding something tasty to the prescription food, like cooked chopped up chicken breast or some other lean meat.

    http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?s=cranberry

    Excerpts from previous posts:

    As your vet will confirm, dogs that have a tendency to make bladder stones have to be on a special diet the rest of their lives, this is a serious condition and it just doesn’t go away.

    I would comply with the prescription food for now.
    And don’t forget, water, water, and more water added to the diet. Ask the vet ….but I believe this helps big time. And frequent bathroom breaks, opportunities to urinate.

    ā€œMy dog had both (struvite and calcium oxalate), no symptoms till the age of 11, started with UTIs. He has had no recurrences in 4 years since his emergency surgery.
    In fact, I just took him in for a geriatric workup and his lab work was goodā€.

    ā€œI was afraid the vet would want to do x-rays and test his urine…..but he said as long as he is not having symptoms we are not going there (he’s too old to tolerate another surgery)ā€
    ā€œI do monitor his urination habits and check for normal flow, stream, amount. If I note any discomfort I will take him to the vetā€.

    ā€œThere is a genetic component and some breeds are more prone to bladder stones.

    ā€œAnyway, if you do nothing else, add water and take her out to urinate frequently.
    I went along with the prescription diet for almost a year, since then he has been on Nutrisca salmon and chickpea kibble soaked with water +, I use the wet food tooā€
    PS: Soak the kibble, even the prescription food in water overnight in the fridg, add more water prior to serving. Keep the bladder flushed. Maybe add a little canned prescription food as a topper.

    PS: If he is overweight or inactive, start taking her for daily walks, that helps too.

    #86738
    Suzanne W
    Member

    Desiree mentioned she mixes this with blue buffalo dry dog food, which I also make my own topper to mix in with blue buffalo! I like desiree’s recipe! Good job!

    #86702
    Tim S
    Member

    We have been feeding our latest puppy the Farmina Natural & Delicious Chicken Grain-Free Large Breed Puppy Formula Dry Dog Food for about ten months after transitioning from another highly rated food (Orijen). We are quite happy with the results, the puppy loves the food and the kibble size is relatively large (works well as a training treat).

    I am not familiar with Farmina’s marketing strategy in the U.S. although I would guess that their market penetration efforts are regional in scope … beyond the existing nationwide Chewy.com distribution channel.

    #86696
    Michael G
    Member

    We have two toy poodles that are 14 weeks old. I have two questions?

    1) I need to find a lower calorie and lower sodium soft treat for a training treat. What does the adviser recommend?

    2) Is it recommended to feed a combination of dry hard and soft wet food?

    Both puppies eat well, we just want to make sure we give them the right foods for their long term health

    #86589

    In reply to: Restless dog?

    Amateria
    Member

    Wow Susan you go all out when you respond haha.

    Rusty is about 8-9 at this point, I don’t think we have his papers and so were not 100% sure if it’s 8 or 9 but he’s definitely getting old, I have ordered and received samples of Totw, they were pretty reluctant to send them to me because of postage charges, but I don’t live anywhere near a shop that stocks their samples, so they let me have 2 samples in the end, high praire I think and coastal(should be bison one and fish one).

    He has done well on black hawk fish and potato, I wanted to add some oils to his food because of what I’ve read about them, they help me with my joints and nerve so I figured it would help with his joints and coat and it did.

    But it also seems that after the dry and the blend he started to have more problems, so maybe it wasn’t the best idea in the end, I’ll make sure to tell mum to feed him the kibble once a week as a treat instead.

    His teeth are generally awful looking, he does need a professional anaesthesia cleaning that’s for sure, he’s impossible when it comes to brushing, I’ve tried and failed like a pro every time, he’s super strong and he scratches me up real good so I stopped trying.

    I will definitely be taking him to the vet for a more thorough check up, because he means the world to my mum, as in if she looses sight of him for 5 minutes she starts to panic and I would hate to see him die from something that could of been prevented(if it’s anything bad to begin with, could just be pancreatitis pains).

    He’s also a white cream chihuahua šŸ˜› and the puppy is white with tan spots she’s so gorgeous everyone always complements the way she looks when we’re out its super cute.

    And for you Susan the kibble is just a treat, we actually feed homemade cooked, he’s always been on a chicken and rice with veggies diet, he does the best on this diet and hardly ever has flare ups, when he does it’s usually my fault because I try to add some variety to his food and some extra vitamins and minerals and than he gets sick and I don’t mean to, it just happens.

    I think because of how well he did with black hawk if I feel like adding anything for his joints in the future I might add that and he did really well on the k9 natural venison freeze dried and super well on ziwipeak venison, I might just buy those from time to time as I know he did well on them, he’s gone through 5 ziwipeak bags with only two flare ups, so yeah I might just stick with that and stop trying new things that clearly aren’t working in his favor.

    I’ll keep an eye on Anja while she’s on the supplement and kibble, she usually eats like 3 of them, she’s not a very big eater, but I hope she continues to do well on the blend, as I’d like to cure her leg drama before it becomes permanent.

    Thanks for the help though, I wanted to be 100% sure about a few things and you guys cleared that up for me so thanks a lot šŸ˜€

    #86584

    In reply to: Restless dog?

    Susan
    Participant

    Hi, from another Australian, I was taking Blooms Green Lipped Mussel capsules & I got bad indigestion, acid reflux, I also took the capsules with a meal…. then I google side effects Green Lipped Mussel & it said Nausea & indigestion…So I have stopped taking the Green Lipped Mussel capsules, I was going to give Patch 1 green Lipped Mussel Capsule with a meal & see how he goes…..

    Ivory Coat’s Ocean Fish & Salmon is new, I got some samples the kibbles felt very greezy & has fish oil, Patch gets acid reflux when he eats any kibbles with Fish or salmon oil… Ivory Coat kibbles are hard to digest I found & the kibbles are too big, so the dog needs to really chew the kibbles… Probably the Sasha’s Blend & the Ivory coat kibble has either made Rusty feel sick or given him indigestion (Acid Reflux) irritated his stomach. .
    I’m waiting for Pet Circle online pet shop to get in more “Holistic Select” Chicken Meal Senior, it’s a 5 star kibble, ingredient’s are healthy & the kibbles are smaller & easy to digest & its high in Glucosamine….Patch is 7yrs old, he’ll be 8 in November, his joints seem OK at the moment but I want to prevent any joint problems, I have Arthritis & its very painful & I can’t take NSAID pain relief irritates my stomach…
    http://holisticselect.com.au/senior-dry-dog-food-chicken-meal-and-rice

    I also feed Patch K-9 natural Green Lipped Mussel Snacks, Patch loves them, he gets 2 treats a day, they’re high in omega 3 fatty acids excellent for brain, joints & skin
    http://www.k9natural.com/dog-food#catpage=2

    This way I’m not giving Patch any supplements but I’m feeding him foods that are high in omega 3 fatty acids. I have found Patch doesn’t do well on any Fish or Salmon oils when in foods or as supplements…
    also next time you try another supplement give with a meal, so you line Rusty stomach with food, sounds like he has a sensitive stomach, you don’t mention what breed your dogs are?
    I’d still give Anja the Sasha’s blend cause it’s expensive & feed Rusty a senior kibble like Holistic Select Senior that’s high in Glucosamine… ask vet or look online what’s doesn’t cause stomach upsets supplements for dogs joints….
    if you want to feed a Grainfree kibble have a look at Artemis Osopure there’s Salmon or Bison or Duck I sent Artemis a stamped address envelope & got samples of all the Osopure formulas, they’re small kibble, easy to digest & Patch loves them…
    http://www.artemispetfood.com.au/products/osopure-dog-products/

    How you test a kibble is get a cup of very warm water & put a couple of kibbles in cup, look at the time & see how long the kibble takes to go soft….Ivory coat kibbles sank (No good) & took over 2 hours to soften, a good easy to digest kibble only takes about 20mins to 50mins & it’s soft….
    I also rotate Patches kibbles I feed a grain free Taste Of The Wild Sierra Mountain Roasted Lamb at the moment but will be buying the Artemis Osopure Bison, second ingredient is salmon meal & Patch will be getting his fish & the Holistic Select Chicken meal Senior has Anchovy & Sardine Meal & Pork meal, I feed 1 kibble for breakfast & the other for dinner or sometimes ask Patch which one does he want & he licks the open container & says this one…

    #86583

    In reply to: Low Sodium Dog Food

    Susan
    Participant

    Hi,
    One thing about senior foods some are higher in fiber & lower in fat, as a dog gets older they aren’t as active, cause your dog is young will that be OK?? make sure you read the Guaranteed Analysis & make sure fat is 10% & higher & fiber is around 4%…. Holistic Select Chicken Meal Senior looks pretty good & I seen salt under Sodium Selenite in the ingredients but pass half way, so does that mean there’s less?? also salt will be in some of the ingredients, so your best to find a few kibbles you like even normal adult kibbles & email companies for the Sodium %…..
    http://holisticselect.com.au/senior-dry-dog-food-chicken-meal-and-rice
    Canidae Pure Formulas are also very good so email Canidae & ask for the Sodium % in a few Pure Formulas….
    http://www.canidae.com/dog-food/products

    #86582

    In reply to: Low Sodium Dog Food

    anonymously
    Member

    Orijen Adult Dry Dog Food

    This protein packed dog food is formulated to best match the natural needs of your dog.

    “The recipe contains well balanced meats, vegetables, and fruits—even deemed fit for human consumption. It is also grain free with limited, specially selected carbohydrates. The Omega 3 fatty acids support a sleek coat and healthy skin. The botanicals were selected by veterinarians to help support the organs, cleanse the body of toxins, and maintain a healthy metabolism. It is also a low sodium dog food with a sodium content listed at 0.3%.”

    “The top listed ingredients include boneless chicken, chicken meal, chicken liver, whole herring, and boneless turkey. Some of the other fruits and vegetables include red lentils, green peas, green lentils, cranberries, and blueberries. Customers who purchase Orijen say it may be a bit expensive, but it does not make any compromises when it comes to the health of pets. Many say it is likely the best low sodium dog food out there and reflects the natural, ancestral diet of their pets”.

    Above is an excerpt from: https://www.munch.zone/best-low-sodium-dog-food/

    Check with your vet, he may suggest a prescription diet.

    anonymously
    Member

    I would rule out medical causes for the change in appetite, at the age of 11 a senior workup (lab work etc) may be a good idea.
    If you are not brushing their teeth daily, they may very well need professional cleanings and extractions.
    After medical clearance, I would consider Nutrisca dry foods as a base, my senior dog and my dog with allergies do well on this product. I recently tried Orijen and I am impressed with it for my younger dog, it may be too rich for a senior. Check Chewy.com and compare prices.
    Can you take them out for a leisurely 10 or 20 minute walk twice a day? It makes a difference (in my experience).
    PS: Add a splash of water to the kibble, don’t free feed, and take out for frequent bathroom breaks, every 2 hours or at least every 4 hours.

    #86519

    In reply to: Alternative to Evo

    Jane J
    Member

    I will look into it, thanks.

    Edited to add:

    It doesn’t look suitable. From this website:
    “Near-average protein. Below-average fat. And above-average carbs when compared to a typical dry dog food.”

    The page is here…
    /dog-food-reviews/verus-dog-food-dry/

    • This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by Jane J.
    #86511
    Linda A
    Member

    Hi everyone,

    We have three dogs and I would love to feed them all the same food, but only if it is truly appropriate.
    We have a 5 month old Golden puppy
    A 2 1/2 year old Saint Bernard
    And a 8 year old Beagle/Shepard mix (35lbs)

    I will continue with separate foods if it’s better, but for convince it would be great to be on just one.

    Suggestion? Thank you in advance.
    Linda

    boobear27
    Member

    Looking to switch my senior dog’s food..I have an 11 year old Rat terrier and I use to feed her Wellness complete health small breed dry food, but it was causing her to gain weight even when I gave less her less she just wasn’t shedding the pounds..When we took her out to the yard to play and have some exercise she will play for a little then just lose interest and not being too active like our Toy poodle is..She is kind of a couch potato too:) We switched her to Wellness core reduced fat and she loved it! She loved the bigger sized kibble she’s a small dog but a large dog chewer:) She actually crunched and munched on this formula, with the Wellness small breed tiny sized kibble she would just inhale it..This was also why we had to buy a small feeding bowl..She shed all those unwanted pounds and started being more active again:)..The problem I’m having now is that she lost interest in this formula..She is a food obsessive kind of dog everytime I use to give her her meal she will dig right in and now everytime I give her her meal she looks at it and walks away for a while then will come back and she will eat some of it then walk away again for awhile and then come back eat some more and then walk away again..It’s like she’s just forcing herself to eat it because she’s hungry and she won’t eat the whole portion I give her..The only way she gets excited about the food is when I put water or chicken broth in it and then she will dig right in and eat her full portion, but I don’t wet her food all the time I switch it up by giving it to her dry or wet..She also has a gas problem she has really stinky farts and I noticed she gets these loose or soft stools..We have to express her anal glands like twice a month. I was looking to switch her food to a different grain free food something that’s also reasonably priced..I was looking at the brands taste of wild, Victor, and 4Health, but can’t decide which would be the best choice..I’ve read some mixed reviews and they had some recalls in the past..Has anybody had any luck on these brands? Which will be the better choice for my senior dog? I’m gonna make a vet appt to get her teeth checked, but I think I’m done with the Wellness brand..My toy poodle doesn’t seem to be interested in her Wellness small breed either.

    #86420
    Emily R
    Member

    My vet told me that my 2 year Great Dane has food sensitivities and prescribed us Z/D Hill’s Science Diet Prescription dog food. The dog food worked wonders, but it is $92/25 lbs which lasts 2 weeks. Has anyone had a similar issue with their dane? We have tried at least 5 other dog foods that are limited ingredient, no grain, single protein source etc. We have had no luck and the poor dog is scratching the back of his ears raw. We have also tried feeding him some coconut oil with his food and benedryl with no success. Any suggestions or advice would be appreciated. thanks!

    #86412
    zcRiley
    Member

    If you haven’t already, do a full panel blood test and fecal test, and abdominal/intestinal X-ray for any blockages. Check his coat for fleas/ticks. And trash that Purina like immediately. Do Orijen dry puppy food and Esbilac powder milk formula four times a day, no free feeding. And lotsa fresh water available, one inside and one outside the home, change daily. Watch the poop.

    #86407
    Martin G
    Member

    So i have a 11 week old German Rottweiler and he weights 21.5 pounds. I recently took him to the vet to get his shots and the vet told me even though he is only 11 weeks old for the structure he should be a lot heavier and also he just looked ā€œtoo leanā€. She then asked about his feeding schedule and the brands of the food I was feeding him. I told her he was eating purina one large breed puppy food and also every time i fed him I gave him 3 tablespoons of blue wilderness wet puppy food. I was feeding at the time 3 times a day. Now he has free range of dry food and 4 times a day I give him 6 tablespoons of wet food. Its now 1.5 weeks later and he is leaner than when i took him to the vet. I asked the breeder and she agreed with the vet. I’m thinking since he has free range of our 1 acre back yard and is running all day that is why he is lean OR the brand i am feeding. price point on food isnt a big deal the only reason why he is on purina is because that is what the breeder had him on. I was thinking blue wilderness dry food since he is eating the wet food already. Please help!!!

    #86405
    Martin G
    Member

    So i have a 11 week old German Rottweiler and he weights 21.5 pounds. I recently took him to the vet to get his shots and the vet told me even though he is only 11 weeks old for the structure he should be a lot heavier and also he just looked “too lean”. She then asked about his feeding schedule and the brands of the food I was feeding him. I told her he was eating purina one large breed puppy food and also every time i fed him I gave him 3 tablespoons of blue wilderness wet puppy food. I was feeding at the time 3 times a day. Now he has free range of dry food and 4 times a day I give him 6 tablespoons of wet food. Its now 1.5 weeks later and he is leaner than when i took him to the vet. I asked the breeder and she agreed with the vet. I’m thinking since he has free range of our 1 acre back yard and is running all day that is why he is lean OR the brand i am feeding. price point on food isnt a big deal the only reason why he is on purina is because that is what the breeder had him on. I was thinking blue wilderness dry food since he is eating the wet food already. Please help!!!

    #86397
    crazy4cats
    Participant

    Hi Linda C-

    Both Victor and NutriSource have senior recipes that are higher in protein than most senior foods that I have fed. But, I think the best thing you can do for your dog is to add meal mixers or toppers to your dog’s meals to increase the nutritional value of dry dog food.

    Adding less processed foods such as, eggs, sardines, canned and/or fresh foods, I believe is a big boost to my dogs’ meals.

    Here is a download that may be helpful:
    http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DN330EBK
    It is only $2.95 and may give you some good ideas. Here is another link that can give you some free ideas:
    http://www.dogaware.com/diet/freshfoods.html

    Hope this helps. Good luck!

    #86393
    Linda C
    Participant

    What would be a good budget friendly food recommendation for a senior Bernese Mountain dog? He’s currently eating Kirkland’s dry for seniors which is okay but we’d like to up the quality while still adhering to a giant breeds nutritional needs.

    #86295
    Sharon H
    Member

    My French Brittany spaniel has a severe allergy to grass. We have been able to control by feeding him food with salmon in it. I am concerned that his current food – purine pro plan would not get stars from advisor? What is a better dry food for Tiller?

    #86288

    In reply to: Abady Granular

    Scared D
    Member

    How can that be BC Nut? The rating are taken from public sources???

    I will rate then, “5 Stars and Enthusiastically Recommended”. Abady for Maintenance & Stress gets 94% of its GA protein from animal sources and is low in carbohydrates at 20%. One source of carbohydrates and one source of plant ingredient, simple white rice. Several ingredients organic and human grade. This food is a granular product and not subject to high temperature extrusion and high temperature drying. The granular nature makes it much more digestible than kibbled foods. It has no expandable fiber forcing the dog or cat to drink incessantly after eating. It comes in a plain brown box without silly pictures and claims and the foods are void of misleading names.

    • This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by Scared D.
    • This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by Scared D.
    • This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by Scared D.
    #86262
    Scared D
    Member

    Annamaet is great food but the on-line prices are very high making it a bad value. You have a very large breed dog known for a big appetite. Locally here in the east those foods are much cheaper. $85 for a 30lb bag of food is crazy.

    As for TOTW puppy, the foods are all peas and pea protein.

    Personally, Dr. Tim’s Kinesis for six months then Dr. Tim’s Pursuit after that. Chewy.com ships out of Nevada so you will get your food very fast. Dr. Tim’s sled racing teams always win. Great food, maybe the best kibble being sold today.

    Abady you will have to call to see the best place to get it If there are no stores carrying the food locally you can buy direct from them.

    http://www.therobertabadydogfoodcoltd.com/State%20of%20The%20Art%20Large%20Breed%20Puppies%20%20Front.htm

    http://www.abadyfeeds.com/

    Abady is a dry food but not a kibble. It goes through very little processing and it is like coarse sand in texture. It has been on the market for about 45 years. It is superb food. In our area it is the choice of the store owner and staff for their own pets.

    • This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by Scared D.
    • This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by Scared D.
    #86237
    Megan N
    Member

    I keep hearing things about Victor dry dog food. Does anyone have information on this brand? What grade via the DGAdvusor has or would give it? TIA

    #86188

    In reply to: Raw goat's milk?

    Michael C
    Member

    I have read a few articles saying dry food is harmful to your pet (whether dog or cat) and recommend adding moisture to it of some type. I have never heard about goat’s milk. I use some unsalted chicken cooking stock (Swanson’s) with water (about 3 parts water to 1 part chicken stock). I think dry dog food is hard on the kidneys if it doesn’t have any added moisture. A dry dog food with a higher carb content than Orijen would probably swell up with added moisture, so perhaps the pet food store was not familiar with Orijen. Here’s an article I just received today that talks about the dangers of dry dog food without any added moisture. http://products.mercola.com/healthypets/bladder-health-for-pets/?utm_source=petsnl&utm_medium=email&utm_content=art1&utm_campaign=20160512Z1&et_cid=DM105047&et_rid=1479439814

    #86186
    Laney W
    Member

    It would be helpful in our household of an 11-1/2 year old American Rat Terrier, a 3-1/3 year old Shorthaired Collie, and a 2 year old American Rat Terrier, to sort dog foods by additional choices. For example, we are looking for 5-star dry dog foods for a Senior, Reduced Fat, Small Breed dog, but to get to this level of discrimination requires a whole lot of reading and searching.

    #86179
    Debbie G
    Member

    After reading Dogfoodadvisor, I now have my 11 yr old 91 lb lab on Orijen senior food and my 12 week old 15 lb puppy (have no idea what breed) on the Orijen puppy food. I was in a pet store and the were trying sell me on feeding them raw food and said that dry kibble is hard on the dog’s kidneys and actually worse for their teeth since the starch turns to sugar on their teeth and that’s what creates plaque! Since I wasn’t sold on switching food brands again, they convinced me to buy a carton of raw goat’s milk to add to their dry food. They said dry food should be soaked in a liquid (even if it’s only water) because then it’ll expand the food before the dogs ingest it. I saw that the Orijen dry food didnt expand at all (which I’m thinking is good?) I’t’s expensive and I want to know if this is just a new thing to sell to customers.

    #86164
    weezerweeks
    Participant

    Water is the way I got rid of my dogs. I agree with this article. Also if at all possible don’t use dry food.

    #86155
    Shawna
    Member

    Zoe C,

    Thought you might find this interesting.
    PetMD website, article written by Dr. Ken Tudor
    “ā€œThe solution to pollution is dilutionā€ is the phrase we veterinarians now use to explain how to prevent urinary crystal and stone formation. Time, observation, and studies have shown us that there are no magical diets for solving this problem and that water consumption is key.

    The more dilute urine is the less likely minerals can clump together to form crystals and stones, no matter what the urine pH.

    Without any recipe manipulations, we have been successful in dissolving kidney and bladder struvite stones and preventing the recurrence of both struvite and oxalate crystals. I attribute the success primarily to the water content of the homemade diets for struvites and the combination of water and ingredient selection for oxalates.

    The take home for those of you with cats and dogs that are urine crystal formers is to increase the amount of water in the diet.

    That can be achieved easily by adding water to their dry and wet foods.” http://www.petmd.com/blogs/thedailyvet/ken-tudor/2015/november/water-solution-urinary-crystals-pets-33270

    #86066
    Debbie J
    Member

    Thank you

    I actually enjoy cooking for our babies. Antibiotic free chicken an beef, squash, carrots, zucchini, blue berries, organic coconut oil

    My groomer remarked how much better their skin and coats are. Penny, extra water with her food. I cannot believe people feed their dogs that nasty prescription food full of corn and grain.

    For Penny its genetic. Water is a must! She should have never been placed on dry

    But now a healthier leaner dog has emerged. Plus her poop is less. 😉 Win Win

    #86025
    karen b
    Member

    My toy Poodle has bad breath. She’s very healthy and has her teeth cleaned once a year. She just had blood work and everything was excellent. I feed her dry Natural Balance potato Duck and also change to chicken and venison. Could this food be causing this? She does not get table food. And her treats are once a day and there blue buffalo…

    #85998
    Jane J
    Member

    I’m having difficulty finding a consistent source of Evo dry dog food. I’ve been ordering from Chewy’s, but when I went to adjust my order today the site says the product is no longer available.

    I am looking for a dry dog food that is VERY LOW in carbs & reliably available.

    I’ve just started researching & have found the Wysong brand that seems suitable. I’d be interested in other’s experience w/that brand, and suggestions for other lines to look into for a low carb kibble.

    #85947

    In reply to: Thoughts on Vegan dogs

    Shawna
    Member

    laconrad,

    I spent an hour creating a post last night only to have it disappear. I’m guessing it was all the links include so in this post I’m only going to include a few links but I most certainly can provide them if wanted.

    I definitely agree that dogs shouldn’t eat nothing but meat, or even meat and bone exclusively but it is an absolute fact that they have no physiological requirement for carbohydrates. Waltham is a reliable source of info on this —
    “Cats and dogs can sythesise their own blood glucose from amino acids.
    Carbohydrate, therefore is not an essential macronutrient. However,
    if provided in their diet, cats and dogs can utilise carbohydrates and
    they are used in pet foods as sources of energy and dietary fibre.
    Carbohydrate levels tend to be higher in dry pet food than in wet
    pet food.” https://www.waltham.com/dyn/_assets/_pdfs/waltham-booklets/Essentialcatanddognutritionbookletelectronicversion.pdf

    In fact, the AAFCO (as of 2008 at least) doesn’t have any requirement for carbohydrates in the canine diet. There’s a minimum for fat and a minimum for protein but no required carbs. Many complete and balanced canned foods have no added carbs at all.

    For the record, I do think certain vegetables and fruits are beneficial in the canine diet but protein and fat should not be displaced with any carbs. I personally have no use for most grains but I do utilize foods with millet or quinoa sometimes (to mix things up).

    Dogs have been eating kibble for less than 200 years. Evolution doesn’t happen in 200 years. Yes, I would agree that my dogs ancestors probably got some carbs as table scraps however carbs in kibble is not the same as carbs in fresh, albeit possibly cooked, carbs. From my understanding grains weren’t processed in the manner we process them today either. Not to mention GMOs, glyphosate / etc and hybridization to increase the protein content wan’t a thing back then.

    Ammonia is not toxic unless the liver is damaged and I’ve never read any research (even in humans) suggesting excess protein caused cirrhosis. Yes in cases where the liver is excessively damaged, or a shunt, limiting protein and feeding certain kinds, like dairy, helps alleviate ammonia from building up but it doesn’t damage the liver. I would agree that 78% of the amino acids in certain meat proteins is all that is used but the bioavailability of commonly used plant proteins aren’t any better and often worse.

    Excess fiber in the diet can actually bind up minerals and prevent their absorption. Grains and legumes have anti-nutrients like phytates and enzyme inhibitors as well as lectin proteins which in susceptible persons and pets can lead to illness including some pretty nasty disease (even autoimmune disease). Although possibly not “nasty” I recently read research suggesting gluten as a cause for “Canine epileptoid cramping syndrome” in Border Terriers. In humans these lectin proteins from certain carbohydrates is also considered a factor in IgA nephropathy (a form of kidney disease) as well as type 1 diabetes (the kind dogs get).

    Protein absolutely does not “cause” damage to the kidneys and some reports suggest dogs with kidney disease actually have an increased need for protein. They now know that “senior” dogs actually have an increased need as well – “as much as 50% more protein” and minimums for seniors is suggested at 25% — “minimum”. My favorite source of info on protein as a cause / contributing factor to kidney disease is “Mythology of Protein Restriction for Dogs with Reduced Renal Function” http://www.championpetfoods.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Myths_of_High_Protein.pdf

    There are two papers published in the Journal of Nutrition suggesting that overweight dogs, even “obese” dogs, lose just as much weight (albeit slightly slower) on a high protein diet, 56% protein, as those fed higher fiber diets without the “muscle wasting” that is often seen in lower protein fed dogs. The body will break down muscle when it’s amino acid requirements aren’t being met through diet.

    #85943

    In reply to: Thoughts on Vegan dogs

    Shawna
    Member

    laconrad,

    Although I do feel small amounts of fresh fruits and vegetables are quite healthy for dogs, carbohydrates aren’t a necessary requirement – even in the modern dog. Yes, when properly processed, they can utilize them but they still aren’t a necessary macronutrient. Waltham is a reliable source of information on this – they state “Cats and dogs can sythesise their own blood glucose from amino acids. Carbohydrate, therefore is not an essential macronutrient. However, if provided in their diet, cats and dogs can utilise carbohydrates and they are used in pet foods as sources of energy and dietary fibre.
    Carbohydrate levels tend to be higher in dry pet food than in wet pet food.” https://www.waltham.com/dyn/_assets/_pdfs/waltham-booklets/Essentialcatanddognutritionbookletelectronicversion.pdf

    In fact, carbohydrates aren’t even required in complete and balanced foods. There is a minimum protein requirement, a minimum fat requirement but no minimum on carbs. AAFCO guidelines as of 2008 http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+1659&aid=662

    They now know that the MINIMUM protein requirement for senior dogs is actually 25%. ” Protein requirements actually increase by about 50% in older dogs, while their energy requirements tend to decrease. When insufficient protein is provided, it can aggravate the age-associated loss of lean body mass and may contribute to earlier mortality. Older dogs should receive at least 25% of their calories from protein, typically provided by diets containing at least 7 g protein/100 Kcal ME.” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18656844

    It’s also a myth that higher protein amounts have a negative impact on a dog’s kidneys. In fact, dogs WITH kidney disease can safely eat a higher protein diet as long as phosphorus is watched. Here’s my favorite source of info on this “Mythology of Protein Restriction for Dogs with Reduced Renal Function” http://www.championpetfoods.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Myths_of_High_Protein.pdf

    The bioavailability of the protein is every bit as important as the overall amount. The more bioavailable the protein the less blood urea nitrogen is created. So the better the quality of the protein the more that can be fed. An ounce of protein from beef, as an example, will be better utilized, leaving less waste, than an ounce of soy protein. Additionally raw protein will be better utilized then it’s cooked counterpart due to amino acid loss lowering bioavailability.

    I have never read any literature suggesting protein as a cause of cirrhosis however I would agree that lowering protein would be advised if the liver is already severely damaged. NOT because the protein is further “damaging” the liver however the ammonia not being converted is quite toxic. Even in this article relating to humans they don’t suggest excess dietary protein as a cause https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000302.htm

    Excess fiber in the diet has been shown to act as an anti-nutrient. I just this week read a research paper on this but I bookmarked it at work and don’t have access right now.

    You’ve mentioned the liver and kidneys several times so I thought I’d add a little more research on the kidneys. “Long-term renal responses to high dietary protein in dogs with 75% nephrectomy. These results do not support the hypothesis that high protein feeding had a significant adverse effect on either renal function of morphology in dogs with 75% nephrectomy.” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3702209

    Purina Veterinary Diets
    “A University of Minnesota study revealed renal aging does not occur in geriatric dogs, at least to the extent that it has been reported in people. When fed a diet of 39% protein and 15% fat (dry matter basis), geriatric dogs maintained relatively stable glomerular filtration rates and had no greater incidence of glomerulosclerosis than those dogs in the protein-restricted (19% dry matter basis) diet group. These and other studies indicate no need for restricted dietary protein, fat, sodium or phosphorus to help minimize renal disease progression in healthy geriatric dogs. Still other studies have shown high dietary protein alone will not cause the development of kidney disease. In addition, research has shown that older dogs may actually require more protein than younger adult dogs, just to maintain normal protein turnover, and to support lean body mass and normal immunocompetence.

    Obesity has been associated with arthritis, cardiovascular disease, diabetes mellitus, neoplasia and decreased survival. Therefore, efforts to maintain ideal body weight and body condition are far more important and appropriate than protein or phosphorus reduction for maintaining health in geriatric dogs.” https://www.purinaveterinarydiets.com/research/senior-dogs-do-old-kidneys-need-new-diets/

    Interestingly, at least two papers published in the Journal of Nutrition have shown higher protein diets to be beneficial for weight loss in dogs.

    “High-Protein Low-Carbohydrate Diets Enhance Weight Loss in Dogs” http://jn.nutrition.org/content/134/8/2087S.full

    “Weight Loss in Obese Dogs: Evaluation of a High-Protein, Low-Carbohydrate Diet” http://jn.nutrition.org/content/132/6/1685S.full

    #85910
    Cami D
    Member

    What would be the best canned and dry dog food for a toy Yorkie who has a proclivity to pancreatitis? Molly weighs 7 lbs.

    Thank you.
    dieks

    #85906
    Cami D
    Member

    Chicken Soup for the Soul for dog lovers- for both their wet canned food and dry food for adult dogs.

    Thank you,
    dieks

    #85900

    In reply to: Thoughts on Vegan dogs

    June M
    Member

    To everyone that says it is selfish to “impose” veganism on pets or kids, I think it it would be more selfish of me to have other animals slaughtered to feed my animal. The same arguments are made for HUMANS- oh we need meat ! the government food pyramid says we need dairy! no, we don’t. many large animals don’t either. it’s ok.

    Yes, dogs have predator teeth .. because they are built to hunt and kill, to roam free, and run all day. They are not built to be raised in captivity, eating any kind of dry food that we give them.

    Maybe you should be giving your dogs live rodents? thats what they would be eating in nature! Good luck!

    just make the choice based on your preference, there is nothing wrong about not giving your dog food with processed animal bits in it.

    #85899
    Marie Z
    Member

    Can anyone suggest a dog food that dogs can’t resist? I have an extremely fussy dog and I’m afraid he’s not getting a healthy diet because he refuses to eat his dog food. I’ve tried everything! I cook for him, too, to add enticing “goodies” to get him started. He’s turned up his nose to almost everything, even filet mignon! He DOES love liver, but I can’t give him that all the time because of vitamin A toxicity.

    I’ve tried dry and wet foods, and homemade meats without any success. I just want to find a food he’ll enjoy! He will eventually eat some of his dog food, but only because he’s really hungry. There must be SOME food that he’ll enjoy eating! Others must have come up against this problem. Can you help? Please? Thank you!

    #85825
    Susan W
    Member

    Hi!
    My dogs aren’t picky eaters by any stretch of imagination but one does have a finicky digestive system. I’ve had SUPER luck with VeRus dog foods. They have both canned and dry food (we’ve only used the dry). BTW – their dry food doesn’t stink. As in NO STINKINESS AT ALL. It’s great. Well, actually, the Cold Water Fish smells like a live fish but that’s all.
    VeRus also sends samples of dry food. Contact them via their website @ http://www.veruspetfoods.com. It’s a really good, informative website, too.
    Another REALLY important fact: In more than 20 years of making dog food VeRus has NEVER had a recall.

    • This reply was modified 9 years, 11 months ago by Susan W. Reason: Forgot to mention something
    #85822
    Ef H
    Member

    I tried my dog on Bright Minds dry dog food and he responded really well. My 8-year-old Maltipoo is almost his old self. After reading the review here I am somewhat concerned and would like to consider an alternative that offers similar bright mind benefits. Also my dog seems to like the food less after a week or so. Suggestions/thoughts?

    #85794

    In reply to: Pea free food

    kim b
    Member

    I have been buying some pea free food as well as grain, wheat, soy and oat free so try these:
    FirstMate Wild Tuna Formula Limited Ingredient Grain-Free Canned Dog Food, 12.5-oz, case of 12
    Farmina Natural & Delicious Wild Cod & Ancestral Low-Grain Mini Breed Formula Dry Dog Food, 5.5-lb bag
    Natural Balance L.I.D. Limited Ingredient Diets Wild Boar & Brown Rice Formula Canned Dog Food, 13-oz, case of 12

    #85786

    In reply to: Help us!!!!!

    Susan
    Participant

    Hi, change vets & see a vet that’s knows about IBD SIBO EPI etc has she been tested for SIBO? have a look at the fat % & fiber % in the food she is doing well on…. ring Royal Canine & find out what % is the Soluble fiber, Insoluble Fiber & Crude fiber % in the wet tin food, did you try the matching kibble to the wet tin food she’s doing good on?? …. Have you tried limited ingredient kibbles & cooked meals? Have you tried boiled chicken breast, not boil till chicken pieces are like leather, get 1 chicken breast & cut up into small bit size pieces & just before it boils the pieces are normally cooked, take off stove drain water, boil the jug & rinse the chicken pieces with boiled water, the fat & white froth comes off then I put chicken pieces in cold water to stop the cooking process, also boil 1 potato & 1 sweet potato… same cut into bit size pieces… I freeze the Sweet Potato pieces in meal sections, same with the chicken pieces, I freeze in 1/2 cup sections & 1 cup sections…You cant freeze the potato it goes yuk I have found so I cook enough boiled potato for 2-3 days & keep in the fridge, I add 1 cup chicken pieces, a couple pieces of potato & a couple of pieces of sweet potato about 1/4 cup each to 1 cup chicken, put the chicken & potato & sweet potato in the blender & blend for a few seconds, stop when everything is all blended, put 1/2 in the fridge & warm the other 1/2 in micro wave if you have taken out of fridge for about 10-15 sec make sure it isn’t hot, now add 1/2 a can of her wet tin food she does well on & see when you add the chicken pieces, sweet potato & potato if she still does firm poos….maybe start with just the potato first no sweet potato just in case later if poos are firm then try adding some sweet potato… every thing you do has to be limited ingredients & only 1 thing at a time or you wont know what is causing the diarrhea…

    My dog gets real sloppy yellow poos from the vet diet Royal Canine Low Fat Intestinal cause it has Maize & boiled rice in it, boiled rice can irritate the bowel causing diarrhea…
    Have you tried “California Natural” Lamb Meal & Brown Rice?? it has just 4 ingredients but cause you have a puppy you should have your dog on a puppy large breed Lamb & Rice kibble…. here’s the California Natural web site… a few dogs with IBD do really well on the limited ingredient California Natural, I’m pretty sure its money back guaranteed if it doesn’t agree with your dog….

    I really think you should be seeing a specialist that deals in IBD in dogs, she may need to be put on Tylan Powder or Metronidazole or a steroid…. Tylan Powder is excellent & firms poos over night but you need to put the Tylan Powder in empty capsule cause its very bitter & dogs can stop eating cause of the taste it leave a metal taste in their mouth, it’s online how to get a shoe box & put small holes in the top of the empty shoe box, so you can put the Tylan Powder into the empty capsules, you add about 1/8th -1/4 teaspoon into capsule & must be given with a meal once a day if once a day doesn’t firm poo, then give twice a day breakfast meal & dinner meal but I only gave at Dinner meal..

    When you try any kibbles or wet tin foods make sure they have limited ingredients…. just 1 protein & 1 carb, another kibble & wet tin food brand you can try is “Natural Balance” Dick Van Patten limited ingredient but look thru all the formulas as some have peas only pick a formula that just has Potato & 1 single protein, that’s why the California Natural Lamb & Rice is the best it has no peas its just Lamb & grounded brown & white rice, feed for breakfast 1/2 cup kibble then wait 5-10mins & then feed 1/2 can of the Royal Canine that she can eat, what ever you try always add her wet tin food but I don’t like feeding wet tin or cooked with dry kibble together, my boy gets pain when I’ve added the wet tin & a kibble dry 2 together your girl might be Ok…. For breakfast I feed cooked chicken sweet potato, then I feed the 1/2 cup kibble for lunch, so you’d feed her wet tin for breakfast, then lunch try just 1/2 cup limited ingredient kibble for lunch, then for dinner her wet tin food do not give anything else that day, no treats nothing, just her wet tin food & the new kibble or the cooked meal……That would cost a bit buying the vet diet wet tin foods being a pup, they eat a bit, that’s why if you can, its cheaper to cook & fresher…..do 1/2 wet tin food & 1/2 cooked chicken/sweet potato also if sweet potato give sloppy poo, then try just the boiled potato, if it does work you will need to balance the cooked meal, I use DigestaVite Plus powder
    http://www.californianaturalpet.com/products

    Home

    #85776

    In reply to: Smelly Dog?

    DieselJunki
    Member

    My dog has been skin scrapped so many times and nothing ever comes of it but some bacteria, which we all know if they test a raw spot of course there would be bacteria, bacteria is all over our skin. I always decline anti-biotics and just treat the area at home myself. I believe my dog has more environmental allergies as apposed to food allergies because we did raw for nearly 2 years, just recently switched back to kibble and he has always been itchy. Spring is his worst enemy, and go figure, I just moved to Cali! He usually smells as well but it’s because he is constantly peeing on his darn legs, boy dogs are the worst sometimes. I bathe once a week with Zymox Shampoo and do the Creme Rinse (which I leave on). Throughout the week I will wet a cloth, put some of the Zymox Creme Rinse on and rub him down with it. It has a pleasant smell. I’m lucky though as I have a dog with a short coat, you’d have to really work to get the Zymox shampoo and Creme rinse in there. Zymox shampoo is enzymatic and I have had good success with it so far in helping to keep the irritants at bay for my dog. If you read the reviews online others with yeasty dogs it has helped greatly as well. There is another brand called Derma-Soothe Shampoo and Derma-Soothe Cream Rinse. I just bought them and have yet to use it so can’t say whether they are good but the reviews online are decent, I plan to use the Derma-Soothe when he’s really having a melt down, last week was pretty bad here for him but we made it. What I can’t stress enough is to follow the directions on the bottle, if it says leave the shampoo on for 10 minutes after you’re done lathering the dog up, leave it for 10, or even 20, then rinse, there is a reason for said directions.

    +1 to going to the vet and having a skin scrap done to see if it’s really yeast but if you can’t afford it try to google how others treat yeast infections in their home. I hear a white distilled vinegar rinse after a bath and leaving it in (lightly drying but not fully) is a good way to help control yeast. But this may have to be a weekly or multiple day a week occurrence where you bathe and do the vinegar rinse to get the yeast under control.

    In the mean time can we help you find a comparable priced dog food that is a bit better in the ingredient list? Maybe you can persuade her if the cost is about the same.

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