[anonymous]

I would schedule the dental cleanings asap, infection is painful and can lead to all kinds of medical issues. Then when they have recovered, I would gently brush their teeth daily. YouTube has some excellent how to videos.
Be aware that bones can result in GI blockage (even finely ground bone) and broken teeth, anything raw is potentially loaded with bacteria.
Per the search engine here:
/forums/topic/dog-not-digesting-bones-properly/
What more is there to test? Obviously the bones, even finely ground up bone material is causing potentially fatal stomach, colon and bowel obstructions.
/forums/topic/rectal-issues/
/forums/search/bone+obstruction/

Dogs are Still not Wolves: Human Feeding Practices Have Shaped the Dog Genome

PS: If the dog needs emergency surgery (not unusual) caused by these feeding habits, it will cost $$$ whether the surgery is successful or not.

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/category/nutrition/
http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm208365.htm?s_cid=w_c_PetHealth_cont_001
https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/choosing-the-right-diet-for-your-pet/
/forums/search/bones+obstruction/
Hopes this helps

[olivia s]

I have two 9-year-old chihuahua-poodle mix dogs (Joy and Faith) who I want to switch to a raw diet. I’ve heard that raw bones can be great for a dog’s teeth, but both of them have pretty bad teeth already. Joy, however, has worse teeth than Faith. One of her back teeth is severely decaying and much of her teeth has visible plaque. Her breath (before taking recent measures) was foul and much more noticeable than Faith’s.

Currently, they are eating Freshpet refrigerated dog food and no kibble. About a week ago, I started adding a product called ProDen Plaque Off to their food and I rub ozonated olive oil on Joy’s teeth, which seems to be helping with her plaque and bad breath. Time will tell if the Plaque Off product works. I’m also thinking about brushing their teeth. When my mom took the dogs to the vet, the vet said that they need dental work. If that can’t be avoided, I would at least like to minimize the problem.

I am weary about feeding bones to my dogs, particularly Joy. Is it safe to give a dog with tooth decay raw bones? Meaning, is there a risk of cracking the tooth? I’m not even sure if they would chew them because of the condition of their teeth.

If I get dental work done on them, would it be better to give them raw bones after they get that done? Or does anyone have experience healing dog teeth with a raw diet or with any other remedy?

Thanks

[Cannoli]

Hi Amanda,

It is hard to advise whether thighs with bones or chicken feet or turkey necks are safe to feed your pup. In my opinion you need to analyze and train your pup first on how to eat these bones.

With my pup I stay away from small bones as he tends to be a gulper and when I was hand feeding him these type of bones he still had a tendency of gulping his food so I stayed away from any whole bones. No need to create a choking hazard.

Otherwise since the base of your diet is a puppy food there is nothing wrong with introducing your pup to these foods. Once your pup has stopped growing than it is safe from a nutritional perspective to experiment with more raw or home cooked foods.

But I must stress that you really need to pay attention to what type of an eater your pup is. If he is a gulper like mine than whole bones, regardless of whether they are soft or not, can create a choking hazard

• This reply was modified 8 years, 10 months ago by Cannoli.

[Cannoli]

Stephanie,

You do not have to feed whole bones to your dogs. Hare today sells ground bones with their grinds.

If you are totally against all bones (including ground bone) Hare today also sells ground meat without bones and you can add your own calcium supplements

[Rusty T]

Sorry Jo C. The side of the can of salmon will tell you how many calories per serving, and how many servings per can. The calorie content varies based on kind of salmon. But say 200 calories per 3.5 oz can.

Then go here for your total calories per day per your dog. I generally try to balance out an average per week over a seven day period in the calories per day. My Siberian/gsd mix tends to put on weight, so we really count his calories while our GSD must have the most amazing metabolism.

/dog-feeding-tips/dog-food-calculator/

(We’ve a service here where I live which is overseen by a vet with a nutritional background that will custom make your dog and cat food, either raw or gently cooked. All organic, all free range or grass fed. They sell lamb and beef tripe, turkey necks, marrow bones, etc. My two are on a mix of raw diet, kibble, canned food, and cooked foods. Hence my calorie thing. I mix up their diet all the time.)

[Stephanie W]

Thank you both for the replies! I’ve looked into ones like hare today and as of yet I am not comfortable feeding bone to them and I know they need the calcium from it either eating or ground, so ground is what I need for now. (I’m doing my research on bones and how to feed them safely but right now I cannot afford an unplanned vet visit so I’m waiting until I can, just in case something gets stuck somewhere)
Courtney, great suggestions! Especially love finding organic ones.
Thank you!

[Courtney A]

Hi I feed premade raw and I also try to feed without synthetic vitamins as well and I know Primal and small batch do not use any synthetic vitamins and use organic veggies and fruits. Also Vital essentials they are prey model no veggies or fruit. I also just started trying a company called the bones and co. Hope these suggestions help!

[Jo C]

Hi,

I have a senior gal that I want to start adding a supplement specifically for her bones. Of course her bones are more fragile and just want to add more comfort for her especially for our walks. She is approx. roughly around 40 pounds from our last vet visit which she needs to go in soon for a check up. Any suggestions?

[Krista B]

Try fruitables, it’s a digestive supplement. Also perfect form by honest kitchen is a good one. Sometimes adding some calcium will firm up loose stools. For example in canned whole sardines there are soft bones that provide calcium. Also RMB’s (raw meaty bones) will work.

[Jeanne M]

I have been feeding Vital Essentials Raw and Freeze Dried Raw. My Shelties are thriving on it and I think it is an exceptional dog food. There are no grains, fillers, veggies, etc. Just meat, bones and organ meat. Please check it out! It’s awesome!

[Angie D]

Hello, I am new to this forum and fairly new to raw feeding …. based on what I have seen so far in my dog I will always feed this way 🙂

I have a 14 1/2 year old shep X this is what he is currently eating

morning he gets taste of the wild kibble before I go to work approx 1.5 cups ( he weighs 50 pound)

his evening meal consists of raw muscle meat chicken and either heart , liver , or gizzards depends on what I have on hand , I mix this with spirulina, coconut oil, and sometimes plain yogurt , I try to buy hormone free meat , sometimes it is just too expensive .. he gets aprox 8 oz…I try to give him a can of water packed sardines once or twice a week as well. I was useing brewers yeast , but I did not like his stool consistency after I started this so I discontinued , I had heard it was good for flea’s , I may give it another shot…..

My question is about Calcium Phos ratio, I do not give him RMB due to his age… I would be concerned that he would not be able to chew them… I maybe am just being paranoid as he chews his treats just fine :)…. but none the less, this is the route I am going… if he were younger I would just give him bones to balance all out….. should I be adding calcium to his eve meal? or does the kibble meal straighten things out enough? If I should be adding it , how much based on the amount I stated I feed…. his energy is VERY good for his age, weight fine as well… I have been feeding this way for approx six months and am still amazed at the increase in his energy and overall attitude towards life since I started, not to mention his breath does not smell at all…. the only thing I don’t care for is his coat… it looks a little dry sometimes…. I am concerned that this could be due to the calc phos issue , or possible un related… we have had a HORRIBLE flea prob this year… and since I refuse to use chemicals on him it is harder to control them…. I am thinking that he coat issue could be that…. if not would a calcium phos imbalance cause coat and skin issues?

Appreciate any feed back 🙂

Angie

[anonymous]

I wouldn’t risk it. In fact, I avoid all canned food. Instead, I buy a quality kibble, and add toppers such as cooked ground turkey, scrambled egg, etc. plus a splash of water. I avoid canned foods in general (even for myself) as much as possible.
PS: No bones (imo) I don’t enjoy going to the emergency vet.
If your dogs need soft food, just presoak the kibble overnight in the fridg.

[David F]

Hello,
I want to get some other opinions on dog food with chicken bones left in it. The one I am referring to is Merrick Classic Smothered Comfort All Breeds canned dog food. This is the first time I have fed this brand and I did not read the label closely enough. I was dishing up this morning for my Bouvier (1 yr, 73 lbs.), Molly, and found the knuckle from a thigh bone and then the rest of the bone. I went straight to the label and now see that they say the bone is cooked to softness and can be chewed. The way my dogs, Molly and all the Corgi’s I have raised, eat like pigs. They wouldn’t stop to chew a bone, they would swallow it. I’m not happy with this and I am wondering what others think of this approach to making canned dog food,

[Jeannine M]

I was looking to change from Fromm LBP gold as my dog has light rashy ears and the vet said possible allergy and sometimes his stools have mucous. Had his stools checked several times and no worms, parasites or anything else. Can’t say I care for the ingredients in a lot of the dog foods put I did like the Nulo. A little high on the protein side but thought I’d give it a try. I wrote them and asked about LBP and the requirements-calcium, phos. and ratios and was wondering what others think, is this too much for my puppy? He just turned five months old this week and he is half mastiff half Rottweiler. This was her reply-
Hi Jeannine,

Thanks for reaching out, and for your interest in our products for your Mastiff/Rottweiler puppy!

We don’t offer a formula that’s exclusively for Large Breed puppies, however our FreeStyle and MedalSeries recipes for puppies are formulated to contain nutrient levels that are intended for puppies of ALL breed sizes. This means that the calcium and phosphorus levels within the range for the development of large breed bones and joints. For your review, I’ve listed the calories, calcium and phosphorus levels for our recipes for puppies:

FreeStyle Salmon & Peas Recipe for Puppies:
Calories: 3,627 kcals/kg; 428 kcal/cup
Calcium: 1.48%
Phosphorus: 1.04%
Ca:P Ratio: 1.4:1

FreeStyle Turkey & Sweet Potato Recipe for Puppies:
Calories: 3.742 kcals/kg; 441 kcals/cup
Calcium: 1.49%
Phosphorus: 1.06%
Ca:P Ratio: 1.4:1

MedalSeries Chicken & Sweet Potato Recipe for Puppies:
Calories: 3,652 kcals/kg; 431 kcals/cup
Calcium: 1.43%
Phosphorus: 0.93%
Ca:P Ratio: 1.54:1

Both our FreeStyle and MedalSeries lines are designed to meet the same nutritional standard for healthy pets, are grain-free, and contain our patented probiotics. The key difference between the FreeStyle and MedalSeries puppy formulas is the variety of recipes within each line, and where you can purchase them. All FreeStyle dry food recipes are exclusively sold through independent retailers and are formulated without chicken, which may be a benefit for your puppy’s allergy symptoms. These include our FreeStyle Salmon & Peas and our FreeStyle Turkey & Sweet Potato Recipes for puppies. Our MedalSeries recipes are exclusively sold through PetSmart, and do feature chicken as a primary protein source; this includes our MedalSeries Chicken & Sweet Potato recipe for puppies.

If you have any additional questions as you consider our products, please reach out to me and I’d be glad to help. Have a great day!

Sincerely,

Heather Acuff, M.S.
Nulo Customer Care Manager
512.476.6856 Ext. 111
Description: Macintosh HD:Users:heather.acuff:Desktop:Customer Care:Nulo Logos:nulo_logo_healthier_rbg.jpg

On 1/5/17, 2:19 PM, “Jeannine Moore” <[email protected]> wrote:

I am trying to find a food for my mastiff/Rottweiler puppy. He is on Fromms LBP gold right now but inside his ears are light pink and the vet said he might have some allergy issues. I’m super paranoid about food as my 8 year old love of my love mastiff/Rottweiler recently passed from osteosarcoma. I got him back in 2008 when they just started recommending not to feed large breed dogs puppy food and to feed them low protein adult food. At 2 he had tplo surgery and like I said he later developed osteosarcoma when he was 7 1/2 years old and was dead 7 months later. I need a dog food that has the right calcium/phos. ratio along with the calcium ratio to calorie. I don’t know how to factor in the ash and everything else as it’s all too overwhelming! I read you have a vet nutritional specialist develop your food and on staff so I am asking you. Please give me your recommendations on all your dry food that is within the requirements that I have listed so I can start tracking down the food.
Thanks so much,
Jeannine Moore
McMinnville, Oregon

Sent from my iPad

[anonymous]

I boil a chicken about once a month for 4 hours, debone the chicken meat, discard a lot of it due to the tiny hidden bones, defat the broth, freeze in small containers, chicken meat too.

Yep, labor intensive, but cost effective, and I know exactly what’s in it. You could try the box chicken broth in the health food section of your supermarket, the no msg kind, probably good for a week in the fridg..

I wouldn’t feed human gravy from a jar to any living thing.

[Jeff L]

I have been switching proteins from beef, turkey and chicken. I will throw in pork next round. I have been bouncing form Answers to Primal Pet foods. His stools changed a little with the chicken. I have also been feeding different raw meaty bones and will probably switch completely to raw once I figure out what works for Nick. Right now I feel better giving him a prepared raw food diet because those two companies have already done the thinking for me, but at a much higher cost than I want to pay forever. Definitely not as convenient as kibble, but I know he is thriving right now. I will keep everyone updated..

[Cannoli]

Parul S,

I am a big firm believer of daily teeth brushing. If not daily at least weekly regardless if your pup is just eating kibble, or raw only, or chewing on bones, etc.

Nothing beats a toothbrush when it comes to cleaning the gum lines. Bones and kibble don’t get in between the gum lines.

So in regards to your question you should always be brushing your pup’s teeth regardless what you feed him. You might like it as his doggy breath will disappear. I love it when my pup licks and kisses me. His breath never stinks..

[Cannoli]

Hi Tides,

I am not a fan of giving whole bones to my pup. No matter how much i tried teaching him to chew correctly he stubbornly chomps and swallows.

Your pup is 11lbs he might crack his tooth on that bone. Instead you can make a nice beef marrow broth and add it to the raw food. Although you probably won’t get the required calcium from the broth you can supplement it with calcium products from Amazon like calcium seaweed, bone calcium, egg shells, or ground soft bones that are finely ground. Ask your butcher to see if he can ground up some soft bones for your pup

In short you can feed raw without actually give your pup whole bones. I have been doing it for two years now.

Best of luck

[tides]

That helps a lot, thank you!

The butcher himself suggests the beef knuckle bones (vs marrow bones) and they’ve cut them to her size in the past. She’s not an aggressive chewer and, regardless, I tend to only give her an hour at a time with the knuckles. I have less experience with the meat/organs/tripe side of things, but you make a really good point that if she’s getting 4 days a week of commercial kibble, I have a wider margin of error.

Thank you!

[Acroyali]

Hi Tides:

http://dogaware.com/diet/freshfoods.html

Here’s a nice article on adding fresh foods to a commercial diet.
I’m not sure if your dog could tolerate eggs since he’s so allergic to chicken. Personally, I wouldn’t risk it. I wouldn’t concern myself with the variety needed for a stand-alone raw diet if he’s still getting some commercial foods.
Beef bones aren’t the best option for consumable bones, however letting him gnaw on bones would help keep his teeth clean. The only dogs around here who don’t get recreational chew bones (beef bones) are those who chew aggressively, so much that chipping teeth is an issue.
Though I don’t feed it a lot, green beef tripe is an absolute hit in this house and the acidic nature helps keep their teeth clean, as well as all the great enzymes helping digestion. As long as the butcher gets it from a good source, I’d take him up on his offer, it sounds great!
Hope this helps get your plan off the ground!

[anonymous]

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/category/nutrition/

http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm208365.htm?s_cid=w_c_PetHealth_cont_001

https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/choosing-the-right-diet-for-your-pet/

/forums/search/bones+obstruction/

Hopes this helps

[tides]

My dog – an 11 lb rescue who is probably a Lhasa/Yorkie mix – does okay on kibble, but I want to supplement with raw/do raw food several times a week. I think it would do her well, especially as she gets a little older.

The biggest issue that I have is the fact that she’s very allergic to chicken, raw or cooked. When I first adopted her, I took her to multiple vets to figure out what was going on because she was so sick. Eventually, moving her to an expensive salmon-only kibble cleared everything up. I worked with that vet extensively and she does well with fish, pork, and beef, but anything with poultry tends to foul things up. Duck is iffy, but turkey and chicken are absolute no-gos. (When I adopted her from the shelter, her fur was falling out because the shelter only had one kind of kibble. As far as I know, until I took her in, she had food that made her ill.)

Right now I have her on a good beef kibble (Kirkland) that’s doing good by her. However, I’d like to supplement this with good raw food. However, I’m not sure how to approach the softy meaty bones side of things when she can’t eat poultry bones without needing an emergency vet visit (skin issues + vomiting + diarrhea). I also don’t own a meat grinder, but do have an amazing butcher, who already has a whole dog section, including organs, human-grade scraps, tripe, and marrow bones. I worry that beef marrow bones are a big/dangerous option for a little dog.

Any advice on getting this on?

[anonymous]

http://www.embracepetinsurance.com/blog/harmful-side-animal-sourced-dog-chews (excerpt below) click on link for full article.
Cow hooves and pigs ears are what the name implies. 
Marrow bones are from the long bones of cows and pigs.
Rawhides are the skin of cows. 
Antlers come from either deer or elk. 
So what do you think bully sticks are?  Think about this one.  Give up?  They are bull penises! Hmm.
There are some dangers with all of these items. All of these have the potential and can cause intestinal obstructions, but equally important are the dangers that come from the way these are processed.  They are first soaked for hours in a caustic lye solution to digest the undesirables off the skin and then to remove the lye the skin is then soaked in bleach solution.  Sounds yummy. Many of the rawhides come from China where they have been known to use arsenic compounds to preserve them. 
There is no regulation of rawhides or pigs ears.  You really have no idea where these come from.
Marrow bones and antlers cause many broken teeth.  A good rule of thumb is if you don’t want me to hit you in the kneecap with it, your dog should not be chewing on it. I can not tell you how many expensive extractions are the result of dogs chewing bones.

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?s=bones

Also, you can use the search engine here to look up topics. I am sure that if you Google enough, you will find articles to support your opinions (whatever they may be).
I have found that I get the best results by listening to a veterinarian that has actually examined the pet in question.
I prefer science based veterinary medicine.

[Acroyali]

Glad he’s doing better! I’ve never used tums, but as Susan pointed out a sluggish digestive system can be the breeding grounds for nasty breath as the food basically sits there and ferments. Hopefully you all can find some long term relief.

As Anon pointed out though, a home scale job isn’t the same as a professional cleaning if there are problems (it’s virtually impossible to get under the gum line, even on the worlds most patient dog). However, if there are no problems and the bones and an occasional scraping is doing the job and your vet is satisfied with how things are going, I say if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

I was in a bind a few years back when one of my oldest dogs developed heart failure at a ripe age, and his teeth were in need of some help. The dogs vet(s) and I discussed it at length, and all were in agreement that a home scale job, done slowly (as to not bombard the dog’s bloodstream with icky crap, as some plaque DOES get swallowed) was the way to go for this dog, given his situation. The vet checked his teeth monthly. In about 3 months time, about 85% of the plaque was gone. (To loosen up some of the really bad stuff on the back teeth, we tried using Fragaria Vesca 6x daily to soften the plaque. By God, it worked.) He lived well beyond the vet and I’s expectations, and while he was on a few medications and heart supplements, we feel that cleaning his teeth up helped extend his life expectancy, too.

So now, we brush teeth, as I learned the hard way that prevention makes more sense than a cure. Any dogs with poor bites, poor root structure, or problem teeth in general get brushed 4-5 times a week. The dogs with good bites and no problems are once a week or so. Everyone gets recreational bones.

If this doesn’t apply to you, be grateful as it’s a difficult situation to be in when your dog’s teeth aren’t in the best shape, but health problems put them as a high risk case for being put under to get those teeth taken care of, yet NOT having the teeth cleaned creates the risk of worsening the organ failure. Hopefully this helps someone who’s reading!

[D S]

Had him completely checked out by vet. We switched his food to 4Health Salmon and Potato and breath has improved. His teeth were fine, she even commented on what great condition they were in. (I had cleaned them with my great little $12 Amazon dental kit!) He did have one anal gland that was really full which she emptied and there has been improvement- you were spot on with that Acroyali. She recommended giving him a tums in the morning and at night also. This has helped some with the stomach acid slower digestion I believe. He won’t eat them, so I crunch it up and drop it in his mouth and hold it shut til he swallows it.
He gets a lot of table scraps- probably close to 50% of his diet between what all the kids feed him (or drop) and licking all the plates and pots and pan, along with whatever else he finds to eat on the farm. He’s pretty good about not eating other animal’s poop which is good, but they graze on whatever they want outside. The dog food has always been free choice. They take a few bites whenever they want to out of the open bin.
I like to feed a good food, but it’s just not feasible to feed extremely expensive foods. The Verus looks really good, and I know Taste of the Wild is too, many thanks for the recommendations. But I have to find a happy medium and staying in the $1 a lb range seems to work pretty well for our budget. Since they get decent kibble along with table scraps, fresh off the horse hoof parings (which they LOVE), and meaty bones every week (from a steer we pastured raised and butchered here -or fresh venison bones that hunter friends give us) along with tons of exercise and fresh air chasing 4 wheelers and trail riding with us they pretty much don’t have health problems. I’ll check into a completely grain free food if it returns, but for now I think the anal gland cleaning along with the food change and occasional tums, I’m hoping will keep my dear friend smelling better. Many thanks for the suggestions!

• This reply was modified 8 years, 11 months ago by D S.

[D S]

D Mannose treats and cures mine, a lot of women say the same thing in the reviews- there’s several thousand human reviews on there, and a lot for the dog one too. This is the first time I’ve used it for a dog though I don’t see why it would be much different. I use the test strips, same ones the dr uses, to check before and after. So far this corgi loves the doggie ones listed above, the first day she wouldn’t eat it without it being in food. The next day on she has snatched it out of my hand and crunched them up like a cookie begging for more. I’m amazed because she is picky. Even raw meaty beef bones (totally organic from a steer we raised and butchered) she takes in her igloo to hoard and takes a few bites now and then. I think it depends on the bacteria and how you treat them. Once a day would not cure a UTI. But several throughout the day, possibly 2 days if it is very severe would in many cases. You can tape a baggie to the dog’s hind end and take her for a leash walk to collect urine and test it with a pregnancy test or test strip. D Mannose only works on UTIs caused by bacteria(about 80% of UTIs are from E coli bacteria). If the UTI is from something else (about 20% of them are) then D Mannose would not work. If you read the Amazon reviews for human D Mannose there is a lot of info about treating both types

[Acroyali]

Hi Rob:

I’ve been a raw feeder for decades and, like pitlove stated, it’s not for every dog. I have two animals now that can’t do 100% raw, and one that gets violently ill from ingesting bones of any description. They get cooked diets, which might be something you’d be interested in researching and trying if you’re not happy feeding kibble. Mary Strauss at the dog aware website has a ton of information on balancing a cooked diet correctly (it’s more of a science than raw when it comes to balance and supplementation, but can be done.)

If he was happily eating raw, got sick, and now refuses it, I agree that he’s trying to tell you that the food just isn’t agreeing with him. It might be temporary, it might be life long, who knows. While his gut is healing, I would steer clear of raw (think of raw as cleansing, and cooked as nourishing). You can boil down bones in a crock pot and feed the stock; mineral rich and very healing to the GI tract.

If, down the road, the time comes where you feel he’s ready to try raw again I would go easy on the bone content (it’s not uncommon for small breeds and cats to do better with less bone than larger breeds), or forgo the bones all together and use a calcium supplement. But for right now, I agree with the other posters, please consider trying something else if your dog is telling you raw food isn’t working for him right now. Best of luck.

[Jeff L]

Just started my close to one year old (Xmas day) puppy, Nick, on the Answers Beef. He was previously on Orijen Puppy for 8 months. I have brushed his teeth daily since I got him at 3 months old. Even with that he has some yellowing of a few teeth. I have to believe that is partially from eating kibble. I am hoping that the Answers will help in this regard. Nick loves their Goat’s milk and so far after two meals he loves the Answers Beef. I will be doing a slow transition over the next 7-10 days. He eats the Answers before touching his kibble which he has always seemed happy with.

I don’t mind the expense of the Goat’s milk and Raw food if it will help have a better, longer life. My last dog had horrible teeth and I know it contributed to his declining health and eventual cancer. I have started Nick on the recreational frozen bones from Primal since all he has had is Antlers. Not a heavy chewer. This is the easiest way for me to feed raw I think. Love to hear opinions.

[D S]

Our 10 year old setter/border collie has been progressively having worse and worse breath. We were feeding our dogs Rachel Ray which his breath smelled then, but now it smells like death. We switched to Diamond Naturals Lamb and Rice and it smells awful, as in we ask him to leave the room when we’re watching TV. He gets raw meaty bones weekly and table scraps. We have several other dogs all on the same diet who are just fine. His weight is good, though he is more lethargic and cold sensitive than he was when he was younger and he prefer to sleep a lot near the woodstove. He still enjoys walks and loves to ride in the car. Had him checked out by a vet a while back and he was Aok, he is a decent weight and in pretty good shape (still enjoys a 2 to 4 mile walk/light run- though he’s ready for a nap when he gets home and the others (all under 3yrs old) are still raring to go) . His teeth have been cleaned, he was wormed recently, he eats fine and drinks normally, has regular bowel movements and otherwise seems normal. Any suggestions on an affordable, good dog food that will improve his breath?

[anonymous]

Start brushing his teeth every evening (once a day) small breeds are notorious for having lousy teeth and you may be able to get away with only one or two cleanings per lifetime, see YouTube for how to videos.
Chewing bones are controversial, you could get him a small bone marrow bone (raw) from the market and let him work on it for 20 minutes here and there. Supervised, don’t leave him unattended with it. Raw carrots work too. Be aware that bones can result in GI blockage (even finely ground bone) and broken teeth, anything raw is potentially loaded with bacteria.
For science-based veterinary medicine go here: http://skeptvet.com/Blog/category/nutrition/
Find a vet that you like and trust, listen to whatever advice the breeder has to offer (assuming that her dogs look healthy).
PS: My small breed dogs do well on Nutrisca kibble as a base with a variety of toppers and a splash of water added. See Chewy dot com for reviews.

[Tao G]

I have a 14 weeks Samoyed puppy, I’m feeding him bones products from this brand. Recently, I wanna switch his diet to full raw food, does anyone try raw frozen from this brand?
Thanks.

[Ryan K]

I have no information at all about the mass this vet felt other then her telling me it doesn’t appear to be related to the anal glands. She said anal glands can abscess and get cancerous but this seems to be along the rectal wall above or around that general area. She didn’t say anything was an emergency or that I should rush to get an x Ray or treatment ASAP. She just said that when I bring him in for his next anal gland expresssing that she will feel it to see if it has gotten larger. She said to watch for irritation and if he shows signs of struggling to defecate or continues to scoot his butt then I should possibly run him in sooner for the biopsy which would involve putting him under and prolapsing the anus to use a needle and aspirate the mass for a sample. I am wondering if this could be a hernia? His diet has been massively changed since his slipped disc issue as well. He’s had a life of strict grain free- high quality dog food but since he has been on tramadol, Prevacox and gabapentin his appetite is pretty much destroyed. He’s been living off peanut butter (I hide his pills in it), canned chicken and tuna fish and some raw hide chews which he only eats the coating off of and leaves the actual rawhide. So, I don’t know if this is dietary related? I ordered some Glandex to see if that helps his anal glands in the meantime. I doubt he will eat them though. He’s seriously so uninterested in dry kibble or even most scraps. Should I just stop giving him tuna, bones and treats and force him to only eat kibble? This is so frustrating. This whole experience has truly shown me that I don’t think I can handle another dog again. It’s so much emotional and financial stress and trauma. I love my dog though so I’m trying my best for him.

[Susan]

Hi, contact the makers of Blue Buffalo again, can you ring them? this way they will put you thru to the proper section, ask a vet where you live can they place an order & have the dry & wet Blue Buffalo sent to their practice, nothing is impossible, especially when the vet will be getting a new patient & a customer….
Can you make a cooked or raw diet this would be heaps better then feeding a dry kibble… here’s a Natural Home Made raw diet or it can be cooked minus any bones but it gives you an idea what your dog should be eating, look for those ingredients in a kibble, I feed 1 meal cooked & the other meals kibble or wet tin food….
http://naturalanimalsolutions.com.au/Shop/2016/03/15/acidifying-diet-urinary-crystals/

[Susan]

Hi T.G has your girl only ever eaten just Orijen kibble have you tried any other kibbles cause of her poos are soft?
you need to try a lower protein & a lower fat kibble some dogs just do not do well on high protein high fat kibbles, I have to stay under 28% for protein & stay under 15% for fat & need a lower Kcal/per cup ME kibble, under 380 Kcals/per cup….

I would not feed a senior kibble to a large breed puppy the senior kibbles have more Glucosamine, Chondroitin & Phosphorus, supplements for older dogs joints & you have a large breed you don’t want her bones to grow too quick…maybe someone else may know more…
I’ve emailed kibble companies cause I’ve seen large breed kibbles that have ingredients that my boy can eat & the fat & protein is what Patch does well on, I’ve asked them can I feed a large breed formula to my medium size dog & they have all yes its Ok to feed my boy a large breed kibble but I don’t think it’s a good idea to feed a senior formula to a large breed growing pup…
My boy is turning 8 in a few days & I don’t feed him a senior kibble some are too high in fiber for him & all the supplements they add don’t survive or aren’t as strong as when you add your own supplement to their diet & add a healthy fresh whole food to their diet…

You have to be careful with your dog doing sloppy poos everyday that she doesn’t get thickening of the bowel as she gets older. My boy is a rescue & has IBD, his vet was very worried that Patch may have thickening of the bowel & I didn’t want Patch opened up to find out so Patch had an Ultra Scan of the bowel, pancreas, stomach etc & from what the vet could see it didn’t look like Patch had thickening of the bowel….after rotating cooked foods & different kibbles he can just be put straight onto another brand of kibble that he has eatin before I don’t have to re introduce the kibble like I use too 3 yrs ago, but I stick with kibbles that are lower in fat & lower in protein cause he just can’t handle the higher Kcal formulas.. I also fed a home cooked meal for breakfast or swap around & feed cooked meal for dinner…

I’d start rotating between different brands & proteins this way if 1 kibble isn’t balanced properly, or something else is wrong with the kibble like the omega 6 is too high & the omega 3 is real low causing health problems this way they are not eating the same kibble for too long to cause any serious health problems…
I’d start looking at other large breed formula’s where the protein fat is lower then what she’s eating at the moment also change the protein get a different protein…

There’s Earthborn Holistic, they have never had a recall, there’s “Victor” or “Sport Dog Food Elite” Sport Dog Food has similar ingredients as Victor kibble but is cheaper, there’s Ziwi Peak is air dried raw & has wet tin foods as well my cat loves Ziwi Peak…There’s Canidae there’s a few really good kibbles around, they all don’t have to be 5 stars kibble…start adding fresh whole foods to the kibble…I follow Rodney Habib on face Book he’s got a really good video this week about chicken kibbles being high in omega 6 & very low in omega 3….
Start rotating one of these brands in your rotation that is lower in fat & protein with different ingredients also look at the Kcals per cup, pick a kibble that is lower in Kcals per cup then the Orijen she is eating at the moment…I can not feed any kibbles that are over 400Kcals per cup to my IBD dog, it’s just too much for him to digest & he does sloppy big poos about 3-4 a day…
I like kibbles where he only does 2 poos a day, “Taste Of The Wild” Sierra Mountain Roasted Lamb & Canidae Life Stages, All Life Stages formula, he only does 2 firm poos a day & poo’s are small….

Home Page

http://www.sportdogfood.com/grain-free-large-breed-large-bites-30-14/
http://www.canidae.com/dog-food/products
http://ziwipeak.com/

[Jennifer H]

Do you have any holistic vets in your area? I too have fed raw for a few years and find what you are experiencing perplexing at best. I raise Saint Bernards so I don’t think I would be able to offer much insight for your particular breed. Sounds like you have tried going through the elimination process but just wondering do you feed the bones whole or grind them? I do both, some ground with their veggies and some fed whole, but just thinking maybe your little guy just needs the bones ground smaller. I wish I had an answer but encourage you to look for a holistic vet that may be more supportive as well as helpful when it comes to a raw diet.

[anonymous]

“I would really appreciate any leads. I cannot even find anything on the internet. Thanks”!

That’s what I responded to. Maybe someone else will benefit from the information I offered.
I shared my experience and what the emergency vets I went to told me.
Based on what I saw I cannot agree with your opinions.

PS: It appears that your vets have advised you already:
“Regular vets are of absolutely no help as they don’t believe dogs should eat bones in the first place. Their diagnosis – some dogs just can’t eat bones”.

[Anna W]

Thanks mate, I wasn’t looking for anti raw feeding opinions. I was looking for people who might have experienced something like that before. The vet bill education was very helpful too, thank you. I wouldn’t have had a clue about how much vets cost otherwise. My dog never suffered from a blockage. She has a digestive problem. There is no such thing as a dog that just can’t eat bones, there are dogs who obviously have some underlying medical condition that is preventing them from digesting their food properly (the food they were designed to eat by nature!!!). Due to close mindness and poor nutritional veterinary education I have to look for a diagnosis myself.

[anonymous]

What more is there to test? Obviously the bones, even finely ground up bone material is causing potentially fatal stomach, colon and bowel obstructions.

/forums/topic/rectal-issues/

/forums/search/bone+obstruction/

Dogs are Still not Wolves: Human Feeding Practices Have Shaped the Dog Genome

PS: If the dog needs emergency surgery (not unusual) caused by these feeding habits, it will cost $$$ whether the surgery is successful or not.

[Anna W]

Hi guys, I am looking for folks with similar experiences (hoping for solutions of course).

I just wanted to start with saying that I am an experiences and passionate raw feeder currently getting my qualifications in pet nutrition and someone who has been raw feeding dogs and ferrets for a few years. I needed to say this so nobody assumes that I ‘tried’ to feed my dog raw for 20 minutes and she has a digestive upset.
We adopted our now 2.5 year old female chihuahua at the age of 1 and put her on a raw diet straight away. No issues for the first 6 months. Then these really dry powdery stools started to occur, a few weeks later painful defecation kicked in, she was crying in pain while passing stools really bad and eventually stopped going to the toilet until she couldn’t keep it in anymore. We tried every diet tweak we could think of – more veg, less bone, more offal, more muscle, nothing changed. Thousands of dollars and many tests later (blood, ultrasound, poop exams, colonoscopy) we know that she is not digesting bones properly and passing sharp shards of bones created a lot of inflammation and scarring in her colon. We know that very dry, powdery and small pieces of stool frequently get stuck in her intestines and only come out after a series of enemas. I never knew I would say this but this dog cannot digest bones properly. We still don’t really know if it’s a bone digestion issue or food digestion issue and the bones are the only ones causing pain. When she had her colon completely cleaned out from old hard stool for colonoscopy we kept her on a meat only diet for about a week and she was fine, no pain, her stools were normal size (a sausage as opposed to many small bits coming out in many attempts). Then we gave her some rabbit with bone and the crying came back. It is obvious the bones are causing the problem (and I was refusing to even admit it for a long time) but I am trying to find out WHY she is not digesting them properly. Regular vets are of absolutely no help as they don’t believe dogs should eat bones in the first place. Their diagnosis – some dogs just can’t eat bones. I am desperate to find the answer, the vets don’t even want to keep testing – like is it a digestive problem in the stomach? They already settled with their ideas. Has anyone had a similar issue before? I would really appreciate any leads. I cannot even find anything on the internet. Thanks!

[Mary V]

Kirstie M… I guess, the best reason I can think of to feed sardines is because they are so nutrient dense. High quality protein. Bones and “guts” intact – also one comment endorses feeding raw sardines, but I have no idea where to get them on a consistent basis. Freeze dried might be a good option:http://www.mycanadianpets.ca/gpage3.html.

I’m getting an Irish Setter puppy in a few weeks and I will be supplementing her kibble diet with some sardines, as well as some lightly steamed vegetables (http://dogaware.com/articles/dwveggies.html) and a little fruit. I also am thinking I will add dehydrated Green Tripe: http://ivcjournal.com/raw-green-tripe/.

I think you should relax. Even dogs are only fed med-high quality kibble seem to do just fine. I have a 13 year old Aussie bitch who’s eaten mostly Purina One dog food all of her life. She has been virtually problem free health wise, and still acts like a much younger dog. I’ve moved her to a grain free of late, and she likes it better and continues to do very well.

Hope this is of use to you.

[anna j]

This is an old thread, do b now I am assuming everything went well. I would feed raw food. Raw offal, meat, meaty bones. You can cheaply do so.
and also if you buy meat for yourself, buy a little bit of of her and her puppies.

I have mastiff and bully type dogs. They eat raw a a time. No problems. Our vet still plays a part, but but a consultant. Our dogs do not get sick,much.

[Pam G]

On that 27 year old dog – I have nine small Poodle mutts romping around my fenced one acre lot in a ritzy subdivision and they find it against their ethics to allow ANY chipmunk on the property. Their solution is to catch and kill those chipmunks and, yep, a fair number of the critters inevitably end up as dog lunch.

If Poodle mutts can catch little varmints as mine do, you bet your britches a large, quick dog like the one that lived to be 27 could do the same and more. Maybe Vegetable Mama believed her darling was living only on lentils and rice but if that dog had access to the great outdoors, the chances are excellent the dog was supplementing that mush with mice, gophers, chipmunks, rabbits and whatever else in the way of meat that hopped across his path.

The other point you Vegetable People are missing is your insistence that as omnivores dogs can live strictly on a vegan diet without meat because they aren’t true carnivores. I will point out that if that is true, then they should be able to live off RAW vegetable matter, RAW grains, RAW beans, raw fruit, NONE OF IT COOKED. That, of course, would be the natural state of affairs omnivores would face. And I notice all you Vegetable People feed your mutts either cooked extruded dog food or cooked mixtures and mushes of various sorts.

On the other hand, dogs can lived quite healthily on a balance of meat, organ meat, bones with the occasional addition of vegetable matter. Heck, I know one hunt that used to feed their hounds by shooting an old horse or cow out in the back of the exercise paddock and letting the pack eat it down, picking up the skeletal remains and pieces of hide before leading another old cow or horse out there for the next week’s feeding.

THAT is the natural diet of dogs. As every other reasonably intelligent dog person on this forum has stated, look at your dog’s teeth. They sure as heck would never be mistaken for the teeth of a herbivore, would they? No way, because dogs are carnivores but can subsist on other stuff if it comes down to living or starving to death.

Either way, as vegans are so against anything that eats meat, why the heck do you guys even own carnivorous pets to start with? I would think dogs and cats would make you recoil in horror and send you racing to buy a rabbit or hamster – beasts that share your ideals of eating only plant material.

[NOSH]

I’m well aware of my puppies symptoms and her behavior. I’m well aware that she could get dehydrated, she has diarrhea, remember? Slippery elm is not going to firm up stools if it’s giardia or cocchida. Period. I already know this. Slippery elm is given at night time and meds in the mornings. This way the meds become completely absorbed and the elm works through the night to help soothe the intestinal wall. This is common sense.

And yes, I do know more than this particular Vet. As we speak she is being processed and fired. Too many complaints about her own behavior and her lack of knowledge and lack of compassion. Too many tests being ordered at great expense to the client which are not necessary. Many have complained. My complaint, which has more value than most, tipped the scales. I’m incredibly proud of that because I have the integrity to speak up and declare that I would not trust her with my puppy or any other animal. And no, I did not book an office session with her but the vet I went in to see was called on an emergency surgery and I was not going to waste another day.

One third of vets are NOT knowledgeable and not sought after because of this. Vet clinics need EVERY vet to know their stuff and to be empathetic, this is required in the healing arts. I would know. If they aren’t generally concerned about their patients, it shows and no one wants to book them. It’s time to get rid of them, let them find an occupation which suits them better. As far as I am concerned, I use vets for serious business, broken bones and blood…..and in this case an ongoing situation where natural healing just won’t prevail.

There is nothing more RIDICULOUS than NOT complaining about incompetence !

[David D]

My 12 lb Yorkie mix loves DreamBones and has never had a symptom of any kind from them. However, I give them to her in moderation. One Mini DreamBone on Saturday night while the rest of us are having popcorn and one fourth of a DreamBone stick if she eats all her food (because she’s always been a finicky eater – it helps!) but no more than one piece of a stick per day. Too much of anything can make a dog sick so I keep DreamBones around as an occasional special treat for Gracie. Otherwise she gets USA-made biscuits or jerky. BTW, DreamBones are now made in Vietnam rather than in China.

[Bub H]

Hello
I own and operate a small slaughter/cutting plant in Northeast Pa. I have been selling raw material to a few wholesalers who take my raw material (green tripe, head meat, gullets, trachea, sweet breads, hearts, livers, lunges, meat scraps etc). I am looking to start selling or blending these products. I am looking for a co op or some way to move a larger volume. I am thinking I would like to do a course ground blend of
green tripe
head meat
heart
spleen
gullet
trachea
lung
sweetbread
ground in dime size chunks and frozen in 2# tubs.
I don’t want to deliver I am looking for a group to pick up.
We harvest 6-10 cattle per week so that would be roughly 150-300# of material per week.
I also have access to bones, hog material, and a limited amount of lamb material.

[anonymous]

If you are really desperate just to see him eat something, I have never seen a dog refuse a bite of supermarket rotisserie chicken. I only suggest it as something tasty might jump start his appetite. I wouldn’t make a habit of it though, those chickens are loaded with salt/msg and such. No bones, of course. They love the greasy skin too.

[anonymous]

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/category/nutrition/
/forums/search/bones+obstruction/

Hope this helps.

[Acroyali]

Just a few of my own thoughts:

When I was in the transitional stages, one of my cats choked…on kibble. He was excessively hungry, and I was removing the 24 hour a day buffet in order to get them acclimated to meal times. He was OK, but any living thing can choke on anything. Bones can be scary, and if someone isn’t comfortable feeding bones I never would suggest it dissuades them from feeding a healthier diet than they’re already feeding. Hare Today offers boneless grinds (meat only) as well as boneless chunks of meat. I believe chicken and turkey both come this way, check the product description to be sure.

I’ve used boneless chunks as “reminders” to chew. I never give an excessively hungry dog anything bone-in; bones come after the main meal, which is mostly muscle meats and organs. It works for us, hopefully it can and will work for others.

I have and do brush teeth on a few of my dogs as a precaution. The issue I have is getting more brushed than the stuff we see at first glance. Getting the gumline on the inside part of the back molars with a toothbrush is next to impossible. Your dogs’ teeth may look wonderful when you lift their lip up. But if they yawn or pant and you get a glimpse of gross stuff on the INSIDE of the teeth, chewing is their best bet to get their teeth cleaned up.

I used to be a huge fan of recreational bones until a recent tooth fracture on one of my larger dogs. Now I know why some owners call them “wreck” bones 😉

I have never had the unfortunate experiences described here by some from puncturing or choking to death, and hope I never do. I know of one person who had a boxer choke on an ox tail and the dog died on the way to the vet. I’m SUPER weird about choosing large things for my dogs to chew on for this reason; even if they don’t totally consume the whole thing at once. There’s no doubt in my mind that dogs have suffered and even died from consuming raw bones, but there’s also no doubt in my mind that dogs have suffered and even died from consuming tainted, moldy, spoiled “safe” dry food (covered in salmonella, BTW), or have suffered greatly from eating a poor choice of food *for them* and have had the symptoms suppressed with drugs.

JMO.

[aimee]

Hi Cannoli,

I read a post from a vet who wrote that chicken and turkey neck bones are the most frequent foreign body he has had to remove via scope from the esophagus …no doubt due the irregular shape.. all those protuberances.

Sadly those protuberances also puncture right through the esophagus and make removal challenging. He wrote that in the last month he had euthanized several young dogs due to perforation from bone. So sad and so avoidable.

I know of 3 bone cases from my own vet. One had already passed before arriving to the hospital ( choked on a chicken thigh bone cartilage “end cap”), in another the bone was successfully removed via scope ( the dog had pet insurance but claim was denied since the bone was intentionally given to the dog) the third was referred to a specialty hospital because the esophagus was perforated… the dog didn’t survive.

Here is a paper on removal of esophageal foreign bodies citing bone as the most frequent problem and reported a mortality of 11% http://www.irishvetjournal.org/content/63/3/163

I’m with you… it isn’t worth the risk.

[InkedMarie]

Glad I feed ground raw with bones to gnaw on; I can’t imagine watching a dog choke to death. Sorry you had to, Aimee.