“Veganism is an ethical lifestyle, not just a diet. Obviously, everyone should be vegan, as it is the most ethical lifestyle, by far, compared to every other dietary approach. It’s just a question of personal willpower, and in a few cases, people with nutritional concerns (which are not founded in legitimate science.)
So that is not arguable.”
Obviously wrong. There is nothing unethical about eating meat. Period. Oops, I guess there is an argument.
June M my dog actually does eat rodents. She grew up on the farm and is the best little hunter. Birds, voles, mice, frogs, you name it are all part of her diet. I think it’s disgusting, but she’s a predator doing what predators do. When I stopped bringing her to the farm because of a boarder she hasn’t been the same since healthwise.
Dogs have instincts. When allowed to just act like dogs from puppyhood and freely run around and act on instincts they can & will survive on what is available (obviously she has manners and is loved by all but 1 person). I’ve seen the dogs eat turkey eggs from a nest. They’ve eaten rabbits. They’ve eaten a little grass when it first comes in at springtime. They drink from the horses’ water troughs.
Dogs that come which have never been anything more than a pet that sits around the house, plays in the yard or dog park have to learn (or relearn) these behaviors.
My anecdote is just that. There’s not controlled experience done. But it is obvious to me every day that dogs are opportunists and survivalists. They have an endless source of apples & carrots they can easily get yet they prefer to chase a rabbit and eat it. If no animal is to be found or they fail in the hunt they come back and steal the fruits & vegetables. They know what they need, what is good for them and what foods are more nutrient dense and are of higher quality.
NO free roaming dog will choose to a vegan diet. They will choose a diet as close to whole food as possible.
Richard W, there is work being done regarding vegan diets for dogs & cats so that people will have scientific evidence of its pros & cons and long term effects.
Anecdotal evidence is not hard to find. It means nothing.
If being vegan makes a person a sanctimonious **** that you have come off as then I definitely don’t want to be vegan. I certainly don’t want my happy sweet animals to be like that.
Maybe you are just hungry and it’s making you grumpy. Maybe your chemicals and/or hormones are out of whack from a nutritional deficiency. Maybe you need to go eat a cheeseburger and wash it down with a milkshake.
Christopher E, I do read a lot. I read things contrary to what I believe because I think that I get a better understanding of the opposing side. Sometimes it changes my thoughts, sometimes it just makes me more patient.
Dogs are not obligate carnivores. They are also not meant to be obligate vegans.
They do in fact know what is nutritional better for them. We just don’t get to see that because they are fed by us everyday so they will choose taste over quality. They don’t have to survive in the world. They don’t have to make careful choices based on what it available.
Do not insult my intelligence go bolster your agenda. I look at everything from all sides and dig for science based evidence. I research everything to death before making conclusions. I even sometimes find those conclusions incorrect. Almost never. But it happens.
I do not try to insult people. I do not try to make anyone feel bad for what they believe. I do not try to debase others so I feel better about myself. That seems unethical.
I had a husky and a golden retriever who were vegan for many years. I cooked their food on the stove each week- rice, garbanzo beans, lentils, carrots, potatoes, olive oil and several other healthy ingredients and I would sprinkle vegepet vitamins on top- the web site has many recipes. The dogs were strong, energetic, happy and very healthy. When my life got too complicated and it was difficult to cool for them each week I bought top of the line dog food. They wouldn’t touch it. It was so sad. They ate it when they realized I was not going to make the food they had eaten for years. Commercial dog foods for the most part are garbage, it’s the slaughterhouse leftovers that are not fit for human consumption. A dog that is cooked a healthy vegan diet is a lot luckier than one who gets kibble. Just because it is what most people tend to do doesn’t mean it is the best for the dog. My golden lived to be 8.5 when his spleen burst and husky to 13 when she has diabetes and a tumor behind her eye.AcroyaliMember
I wonder if those who choose to force their vegan beliefs on a carnivorous animal would have a problem with my feeding my horses a raw diet…
I’m not “forcing vegan beliefs” on my dogs. Dogs can be vegan and thrive. The oldest dog ever lived to be 27 and was vegan! http://www.care2.com/greenliving/vegetarian-dog-lives-to-189-years.html
Dogs are omnivores, not carnivores.
This thread is about dogs, not horses.AcroyaliMember
The dog in question was a farm dog, so my guess is he ate a bunch of “undesirables” that most farm dogs eat that, I’m sure enable them to thrive. I’m not getting into the omnivore or carnivore debate, and I know this thread is about dogs and not horses. However, feeding my horses meat meant for my dogs would be no better than feeding my dogs the food meant for my horses. Sorry if you disagree but dogs were not meant to be vegans. Open their mouths, look at the teeth.AnonymousInactive
The subject of ethical veganism is something I wouldnt expect to find in a dog forum and I have to admit that the notion of a vegan dog made me laugh.
The words need, right,wrong, ethics seems to be used a lot.
This words are man made concepts and they can not be absolute. They are constantly changing and are different to different cultures. Its surprising to me that those who otherwise seem to be intelligent cant understand that its fascist to force your believes to others that dont want to share them and resort in cursing and name calling.
Of course it would be hypocritical of me to judge you based on my belief that fascism is wrong and if you indeed identify yourselves as fascist I do apologize.
Now on the issue of what a person needs or what a dog needs for that matter.
A person indeed needs very little to survive, do you need a car? NO. A house ? NO. Fancy clothes, makeup, televisions, jewellery, furniture and hundreds of other material possessions? NO. You could follow the example of Diogenes, live in a barrel and drink rain water.
So the real question is not how long one will live but how one lives his live.
If one is to deprive himself of all things NOT NEEDED, is his life a life worth living?
Another think I find hypocritical is that vegans are suppose to stand for animal rights and yet you are forcing an animal to go against his nature and his primal instincts. How is that different than keeping a lion locked up in the zoo?
P.S A ruminant based diet would result in less animal killings than a crop only based diet.Pam GMember
On that 27 year old dog – I have nine small Poodle mutts romping around my fenced one acre lot in a ritzy subdivision and they find it against their ethics to allow ANY chipmunk on the property. Their solution is to catch and kill those chipmunks and, yep, a fair number of the critters inevitably end up as dog lunch.
If Poodle mutts can catch little varmints as mine do, you bet your britches a large, quick dog like the one that lived to be 27 could do the same and more. Maybe Vegetable Mama believed her darling was living only on lentils and rice but if that dog had access to the great outdoors, the chances are excellent the dog was supplementing that mush with mice, gophers, chipmunks, rabbits and whatever else in the way of meat that hopped across his path.
The other point you Vegetable People are missing is your insistence that as omnivores dogs can live strictly on a vegan diet without meat because they aren’t true carnivores. I will point out that if that is true, then they should be able to live off RAW vegetable matter, RAW grains, RAW beans, raw fruit, NONE OF IT COOKED. That, of course, would be the natural state of affairs omnivores would face. And I notice all you Vegetable People feed your mutts either cooked extruded dog food or cooked mixtures and mushes of various sorts.
On the other hand, dogs can lived quite healthily on a balance of meat, organ meat, bones with the occasional addition of vegetable matter. Heck, I know one hunt that used to feed their hounds by shooting an old horse or cow out in the back of the exercise paddock and letting the pack eat it down, picking up the skeletal remains and pieces of hide before leading another old cow or horse out there for the next week’s feeding.
THAT is the natural diet of dogs. As every other reasonably intelligent dog person on this forum has stated, look at your dog’s teeth. They sure as heck would never be mistaken for the teeth of a herbivore, would they? No way, because dogs are carnivores but can subsist on other stuff if it comes down to living or starving to death.
Either way, as vegans are so against anything that eats meat, why the heck do you guys even own carnivorous pets to start with? I would think dogs and cats would make you recoil in horror and send you racing to buy a rabbit or hamster – beasts that share your ideals of eating only plant material.
Pam G I agree with everything you said. It’s maddening that they have these pets. They claim to love animals so much yet they are not properly taking care of those they have committed to do so.
There’s a wolf education center not far from me. (I realize there are differences between pet dogs and wolves.) Hunters will bring deer heads to them for the wolves to have. Much like the hunt club you mentioned.
I don’t believe for a second that dog lived to be that old. And it absolute did not live its entire life without meat.
People will fall for any anecdotal examples from random people if it supports their side. Forget science and evidence. While that isn’t perfect at least it’s controlled, based on factual info and must follow particular steps.
There isn’t any study that suggests vegan is healthy for humans long term. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary. I cannot imagine it is even remotely acceptable for dogs & cats.
These people don’t care about animals as much as they care about their agenda.
“…a vegan diet can bring relief, veterinarian Armaiti May says.
“I’ve seen many dogs with food allergies, and often switching to a vegan diet can help them,” says May, who is vegan. “They also avoid taking in animal by-products from commercially produced dog food, including slaughterhouse waste products and rejects that wouldn’t be fit for human consumption. We’ve seen a lot of cancer and other degenerative diseases in dogs in recent years so it’s easy to suspect that pet food could be a contributor.”
“The important thing is that you use a diet that has been shown to be nutritionally adequate for whatever stage of life you’re feeding, and it is absolutely possible to find a good quality commercial pet food that doesn’t have animal products in it,” says veterinarian Kathryn E. Michel, an associate professor of nutrition at the University of Pennsylvania’s School of Veterinary Medicine.”
“If one person contacts a pet food company to check where it get its meat, I’ll be ecstatic.”Christopher EMember
What most are failing to realize is that what your dogs ancestors ate is completely irrelevant.
Unless you are feeding your dogs raw food scraps, you have already altered their diet from what you are arguing is “natural,” i.e. What it was between 15k years and maybe a century ago.
But, again, that is irrelevant, the point is that numerous studies have shown that high levels of proteins grow cancer cells… and every dog in America is subject to higher and higher levels of carcinogens than the previous generation. Carcinogens are everywhere in the modern world.
That dogs have always had meat as the main component of their diet in not a valid argument. As myself and others have pointed out, it is entirely possible to provide a complete and balanced diet without animal products.
For anyone who has said that animal product free, vegan diets have not been proven to be healthy in humans or dogs in the long term… you clearly have not done your research because the studies are out there.
I am no longer a vegan. I tried to do it for a while for health reasons, not out of feeling sad for animals (though it does make me sad to think about how they are treated and slaughtered just for our enjoyment). Unfortunately, I love meat too much though. Sorry.
But when it comes to my dog, she is still a vegan. I don’t feed her animal products (except for the ocassional filet mignon scrapes I give her) because I believe that she is healthier and will live longer on a nearly entirely vegan diet. My opinions have been extrapolated from decades of research findings.
There is not any SCIENTIFICALLY EMPIRICAL study that has shown that humans or dogs need meat as part of their diet to be healthy and whole.
Look back over my numerous post on this thread, going back to the first post, if you doubt me.
There is nothing cruel or innately wrong about not feeding your dog meat if you are providing a complete and balanced diet (all the necessary vitamins, minerals, and nutrients). Arguing that’s it’s cruel because it is not in their nature is ridiculous. They are dogs for Christ sake. Non of this was “in their nature” when we first began domesticating them (wolves) 15k years ago. Just like our children, we have to do for them what we believe is best for them based on the information we have available… not whatever is in their nature… which, honestly is a completely arbitrary statement.
Of course food intolerances go away. The aggravating factor has been eliminated.
A dog may be diagnosed with having a food “allergy” to chicken, but if fed chicken from a different source (farm) they may not have any problems.
It’s perfectly fine for a dog to eat animal by-products. Americans tend not to eat this stuff, but other countries do. The by-products can be anything from cartilage to organs. Organs are loaded with good stuff.
Chipmunks, snakes, field mice aren’t considered good enough for human consumption, but my dog will happily eat them when she finds them on the farm. I don’t know if she’s getting much or any nutrients from them, and I wouldn’t eat them, but that’s the difference between humans and animals. She doesn’t like fruit, I do. We’re different. I’m not going to force her to eat something or not based on whether I would or wouldn’t. I feed her what I believe to provide the best possible nutrition for her that helps her thrive and keeps her healthy. And if it happens to be more sustainable than that’s a bonus. (Veganism is not a sustainable option. But that’s a whole other rant.)
Poor breeding is to blame for cancers and degenerative diseases. People will breed anything. They just want to get paid. It’s hard to find breeders who do genetic testing and are careful to keep their breeding stock optimal. Many breed for show. Which if you’ve ever seen the conformation of show dogs will notice how deformed they actually are compared to their healthier ancestors.
I do believe food is the most important part of preventing health problems and sustaining the health of any animal once they are born, but before that breeding only the healthiest must be done.
Many humans do well on vegan diets for a while because they have cut calories, decreased junk food, increased fruits & vegs. Then they don’t feel great because they become malnourished.
Even they supplement what the food is missing they still aren’t getting the best possible source of that nutrient as it’s better to get nutrients from foods than replacing with synthetic versions.
Short term veganism has its benefits (for some humans), but no one can say with certainty that long term benefits for anyone exist.
The “scientifically empirical” evidence that humans and dogs are not meant to eat plant only diets is obvious (or should be). Neither have rumens or multiple stomachs like animals that are meant to eat plant only diets (cows).
Humans and dogs are omnivores. Not herbivores.
There’s usually nothing wrong with adding more plants to a dog’s diet, but it makes absolutely no sense and there is absolutely no good reason to feed a dog a plant only diet.
What often happens to people who are vegan long enough is they begin to self-cannibilize.
That said I also don’t think it’s the best idea to feed a strictly raw diet either. Domesticating canines has made them different from wild canines. Some can handle raw just fine and others cannot handle a lot. I have dogs that will catch & eat whatever they come across outside w/o issue and a dog that will end up w/ diarrhea if he does that.
If I were to feed a fad diet to my animals it has to have scientific evidence to back up its claims and agree with their particular system.
No matter what animal protein will be part of that diet because it is what they as omnivores require.
Anonymous I totally agree with your point. It is the so unethical/immoral to force your beliefs on anyone.
I especially agree with your post script for those who believe veganism is more environmentally friendly. It is simply not a sustainable option to feed so many people. Seems so obvious that you can feed more people & animals with one big animal/fish than you can a plant.
Not to mention there is absolutely no way to possibly be 100℅ vegan if that means never using animals for anything. Guess where the fertilizer for those plants comes from????? Manure from the animals they don’t eat.
Those pesticides for organic & non-organic still harm bees (which is necessary for pollinating those plants) and other insects, birds, small animals…there really isn’t a way to not cause harm to other living creatures when growing crops. So those vegans who insist on their extreme diets for ethical reasons aren’t being as ethical as they think and really cause more harm.S AMember
Hi Jenn H,
Let’s drop beliefs altogether and instead consider facts. It seems my last post didn’t make it through to this thread… I’m guessing it was the links, so let’s try it without references/links and see how it goes. You can always google them.
You said it well here: “there really isn’t a way to not cause harm to other living creatures when growing crops”
I totally agree with that, but disagree with pretty much everything else.
Your thought process about pesticides might make sense if the animals we eat, didn’t eat plants. However, to get an animal to slaughter size/age, it has to be fed–daily. What do most animals that we eat consume for food? Feed that comes from plants… lots and lots of plants. (Some also are fed other animals, that ate plants… further amplifying the cost… but for simplification, we can pretend that doesn’t happen.) Plants grown for livestock feed, typically grown as monocultures, are of course prone to massive infestations and diseases. This is why there is massive pesticide (and herbicide and fungicide) use involved in producing livestock. When we consider the food that livestock consumes as part of the equation, which is only fair as it’s a part of the environmental cost of rearing the animals we eat, it paints a very different picture.
*Land required to feed 1 person for 1 year:
Vegan: 1/6th acre
Vegetarian: 3x as much as a vegan
Meat Eater: 18x as much as a vegan
*1.5 acres can produce 37,000 pounds of plant-based food.
1.5 acres can produce 375 pounds of meat.
Just think how much less land would be needed to produce so much more food if people would even just reduce their meat consumption. Instead of using all of the land that currently goes towards producing livestock feed for human consumption of meat, we could use a fraction of it to produce plants for human consumption.
Veganism and animal cruelty/suffering doesn’t have to be an all or nothing attempt. Any reduction in animal abuse/farming is beneficial for our planet.
Btw, the manure used on crops, needn’t be from animals that aren’t consumed for food. We have no shortage of manure due to livestock that are used for food. More facts:
*Every minute, 7 million pounds of excrement are produced by animals raised for food in the US. This doesn’t include the animals raised outside of USDA jurisdiction or in backyards, or the billions of fish raised in aquaculture settings in the US.
*130 times more animal waste than human waste is produced in the US – 1.4 billion tons from the meat industry annually. 5 tons of animal waste is produced per person in the US.
*In the U.S. livestock produce 116,000 lbs of waste per second:
-Dairy Cows, 120lbs of waste per day x 9 million cows.
-Cattle, 63lbs of waste per day, x 90 million cattle.
-Pigs, 14lbs. of waste per day, x 67 million pigs.
-Sheep/Goats. 5lbs of waste per day, x 9 million sheep/goats.
-Poultry, .25-1lbs of waste per day, x 9 billion birds.
Dairy cows and cattle-1.08 billion pounds per day (from 9 million dairy cows, 120 pounds waste per cow per day) + 5.67 billion pounds per day (90 million cattle, 63 pounds waste per one cattle per day) = 6.75 billion pounds per day waste or 2.464 trillion pounds waste per year (manure+urine)
** 3.745 trillion pounds waste per year(this is the equivalent of over 7 million pounds of excrement per MINUTE produced by animals raised for food in the U.S. excluding those animals raised outside of USDA jurisdiction, backyards, and billions of fish raised in aquaculture settings in the U.S.)
Some more interesting bits:
*Livestock or livestock feed occupies 1/3 of the earth’s ice-free land.
*Agriculture is responsible for 80-90% of US water consumption.
*Growing feed crops for livestock consumes 56% of water in the US.
Just some food for thought… or thoughts on food…Hellen MMember
Vegan diet for dogs is going to be an ever-lasting debate, until more research is done. Just like it was with vegan diet for humans, before it got popular.
I have a two-year old vegan Alaskan Malamute, who has been on a vegan diet since she was a few months old. She’s really energetic and healthy.
I have actually created a blog, reviewing vegan dog foods – if anyone’s interested, I could drop the URL. I did not, however, create it in order to argue with people which diet is better. It’s for those who have already decided to feed their dog a vegan diet and just need a bit more information regarding current options on the market.ShepAussieMember
Hellen M, I would like to know your recipes of the vegan meals you feed your dog.
Hi , yes there are many vegan dogs and cats now. The longest living dog in the guinness book of records was vegan.Called Bramble. Book even written on this border collie. There are thousands of thriving on vegan diets cats and dogs out there. It is about nutrition not substance. 1 in 8 of a litter of wild wolves never made it to adulthood…poisoned by food issues all sorts our pets are not wild wolves or we would not need to feed them. Much research done with links here. actually having myself done great research as a vegan…having vegan dogs as do thousands that thrive on vegan diets… I collected on the subject. http://vegan-information.com/Vegan_Dogs_and_Cats.html where there are links to vet articles and suppliers of vegan foods. I have 2 vegan dogs.Pam GMember
Noelle, “vegan dog” is an oxymoron.
Take your so-called “vegan dog” and place a plate of hamburger or a chicken leg quarter under its nose and let’s see how long your “vegan dog” sticks to YOUR ideals on canine diet.SusanMember
your wrong the oldest living dog was “Maggie” lived & worked on a dairy farm Victoria Australia, she lived to be 30 yrs old, passed 2016, Maggie ate a RAW diet, dead baby calves when they were born dead & the placenta from the calf, the placenta is very healthy & she ate left overs from dinner & had 1 cup of fresh cows milk straight from the cow 6am every morning, google her story “Maggie the oldest dog in the world” it’s a beautiful story….
You wont find too many old Vegan dogs over 15 yrs old, cancer loves carbs & thrives, all vegan diets are very high in carbohydrates….. very SAD all these vegans who push their beliefs onto your poor pets who love & live for meat diets …..
In Australia we had a real bad cruelty case where the women feed her poor kitten & vegan diet, you should have seen the state of this poor cat at 1 yr old it was awful, the lady was charged with animal cruelty & never to have another pet again……
hi, I am not wrong this Bramble is per easy to find references a record holder in the Guiness book of records the details of why i do not have but the dog is refered to on many sites including this other dog mentioned…..so it is a credit to vegan dogs to have held that record. there are many examples of dogs living over 15 years age on vegan diet actually. Examples of people who misfeed their pets are numerous …there are plenty starved misfed dogs that are non vegans or the shelters would not be full of them. One off examples are not universal for bad nutrition issues for humans or animals. We push everything about our choices of lives of our pets … no dog or cat ever asked to be sterilised for example. 1 in 8 of an average litter of wild wolves only made it to adulthood..we are wrongn to have fantasies about our pets being wild or let them die of malnutrition as the wild wolves so often did. now extinct of course so irrelevant. the very fact we discuss what to feed out pets mean we are forcing or deciding that for them. my dogs are fed grain free vegan food btw. organic. vet approved. and certainly thousands like my vegan dogs relish their food. stomach ulcers of my bitch due to acidic flesh based food previously disappeared i add. and a sanctuary of wolves in France visited feed their wolves practically vegan dogfood as more nutritious. I like thousands of others do not need to feed my dogs other dead animals so choose not to. my dogs are healthy super energetic and happy to eat the food I give them there is nothing sad about them.
put a few bars of dark chocolate in front of most dogs and they would relish eating it…and die. it is toxic to dogs. that is why we control what they eat. would I stop my dogs eating dead rats or mice found ? of course …probably poisoned or diseased. vets warn against chicken bones and advise against raw feeding for all sorts of reasons…i certainly would like most responsible pet owners take away any dead animal my dogs might try and eat for all sorts of disease and perforated stomach risk preventiion issues…that wolves died easily from such problems is not something most pet owners wish for their pets so all we feed our pets is unnatural and decided on by us at the end of the day. We control what our pets eat…or else they would die if allowed to eat what they wanted to as examples given prove.
- This reply was modified 2 years, 8 months ago by noelle o.
I do not personally make my own vegan dog food…there are recipies out there. I buy my dog vet approved vegan kibble…benevo uk supplier in the current case…royal canin canada etc etc …details on the website links I provided I suggest looking to those links to get more details on the contents of different vegan petfoods. http://vegan-information.com/Vegan_Dogs_and_Cats.html my Benevo vegan dogfood details are on their website here…★ Wheat-free Recipe
★ No GM Ingredients
★ Certified Organic
★ Contains Prebiotic FOS
★ Foil Fresh Packaging
Composition: Organic soya bean, organic white rice, organic barley, organic oats, organic sunflower oil, brewers yeast, beet pulp, vitamins and minerals, fructooligosaccharides (prebiotic FOS; min. 0.1%), yucca schidigera extract (min. 0.05%)
Analytical Constituents: Protein 20%, Fat Content 12%, Crude Fibre 4.0%, Ash 3.5%, Moisture 8%.
Additives per Kg: Nutritional Additives: Vitamins; Vitamin A (as retinyl acetate) 17,224 IU, Vitamin D2 (as ergocalciferol) 2,392 IU, Vitamin E 120 IU. Trace Elements: Iron (as Ferrous Sulphate Monohydrate) 159 mg, Zinc (as Zinc Sulphate Monohydrate) 133 mg, Manganese (as Manganous Sulphate Monohydrate) 105 mg, Copper (as Cupric Sulphate Pentahydrate) 45 mg, Selenium (as Sodium Selenite) 0.6 mg, Iodine (as Calcium Iodate Anhydrous) 1.5 mg, Linoleic Acid (Omega 6) 6.54%, Linolenic Acid (Omega 3) 0.46%. http://www.benevo.com/vegan-dog-food/#benevo-dog-organic
hi would be very interested thx !SusanMember
Bluey is officially the oldest dog in the world age 29yrs 5months old he was PTS 1939 & still holds the tittle Guinness book of records….
Brambles the vegan dog from UK, first I read Brambles was 25yrs old when she passed away, then I read she was 27 yr old ?????….
Brambles did not eat any processed dry vegan kibble, she ate a bowl of FRESH organic vegetables rice & lentils, a fresh vegan diet….there’s a big difference to feeding a dry processed kibble & feeding fresh whole foods, the other 2 Oldest dogs in the World Maggie & Bluey ate fresh foods & exercised & worked…….
Rodney Habib looked into why these dogs lived so long, the common link was they all worked & exercised every day & only ate once a day & all 3 dogs were feed fresh foods, not processed dry kibbles…..Donald PMember
This has been a great discussion, I’m considering cooking for my dog and give a variety of foods based on my research. There is a strong and growing case for vegan diets for a variety of reasons as discussed in this forum.
There is so much controversy regarding food for humans and animals, Gary Taubes book Good Calories, Bad Calories is an important book for humans to read, regarding the madness of the meat, dairy, butter are bad, as the real culprits sugar and simple carbs were put front and center. For my family controlled carbs, heavy veg, select fruits and light meat consumption is the answer with high quality supplements to fill in some of the blanks.
I will feed my Propsa Shih Tzu the same basic template. mostly poultry, occasional beef. There are some solid sources of veg protein as well as other beneficial foods. That being said, I found this study to be interesting on the omnivore dilemma with canines:
Interesting discussion. However, as pointed out by this very site, actual scientific evidence, vs anecdotal evidence, points to the fact that the entire Canidae and Felidae families are both physically and biologically carnivorous.
People like to pick and choose supportive statements from the famous Knight and Leitsberger study “Vegetarian versus Meat-Based Diets for Companion Animals” which supports their claims for the undisputed nutritional value of vegan living for dogs and cats. Unfortunately the study itself does not validate those claims and even questions the results of the “famous” PETA study in 1994 with “The precise diets used, and their level of nutritional adequacy, are unknown.” They also state of the studies they reviewed (including PETA) “The standard of evidence offered by these studies and case reports varies significantly, and very few, if any, meet the standards of well-designed RCTs that are considered the cornerstone of Evidence-Based Medicine.” While Knight and Leitsberger concur that a significant and growing body of population studies and cases suggest that cats and dogs may be successfully maintained on nutritionally sound vegetarian diets long-term, and indeed, may thrive, they also state, “cats and dogs maintained on these diets also experience health problems, and occasionally die.”
It’s a very well done study, but it does challenge the claims and assertions of both camps, and calls for more research to be done. http://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/6/9/57/htm
The fact remains that while some dogs and cats may “thrive on vegan diets”; their physical biology is that of their carnivore families. Their “tearing” back teeth, shorter intestinal lengths, higher stomach acid levels and faster digestion, and lack of production of the enzyme amylase in their salivary glands all clearly and uniquely identify them as being biologically carnivores. They simply do not have the “grinding” molars of herbivores or omnivores. They do not have the slower digestive tracts and associated longer intestines that both herbivores and omnivores have. In addition, they do not produce amylase in their salivary glands, a hallmark difference between carnivores and herbivore/omnivores. Dogs and cats may have “adapted” to living with us, but they are certainly biologically and physically carnivores like their relatives. Any diet, vegan or classical, has to meet the needs of their carnivorous biology.Madison LMember
I am a vegan for ethical, environmental, and health reasons. However, my dog does consume a meat and vegetable dog food, (Wellness now Fromm) based on the recommendation of his veterinarian. Feeding my dog a food with meat in it may seem counterproductive to the cause as to why I am vegan, but I am not a veterinarian.
I adopted/rescued my Treeing Walker Coonhound prior to living a vegan lifestyle, though I previously was a vegetarian for many years. It doesn’t seem fair to feed my dog a vegan diet against my veterinarian’s recommendation.
- This reply was modified 1 year, 9 months ago by Madison L.
Madison et al… I started this thread when I myself was eating a vegan diet. Although I still believe that eating vegan is the healthiest choice for both myself and my dog, I didn’t have the conviction necessary to stay away from meat and dairy, which I love. But my dog, on the other hand, has to eat what I give her. Clearly she would prefer a steak over a carrot… as would most any human; but I have decided what I believe to be the healthiest diet for her… which is a diet low in carcinogens and, more importantly cancer growing fuel… cancer is, after all, the number one killer among K9s.
Madison, I understand that you feel a need to defer to what your vet tells you, but there is a flaw in your logic… doctors, by and large, do not know anything about nutrition. Medical schools have only recently begun offering basic introductory courses on nutrition… it is just not what they are trained for.
99%+ of doctors (human) who would actually be willing to discuss diet with you would tell you that eating a 100% vegan diet is not healthy… but you still do it.
I am not pushing my ideals/morality/etc onto my dog as many other posters have stated or alluded to. Even when I was eating vegan I was doing it solely for health reasons. Don’t get me wrong, I was also happy that I was creating less of a negative impact on the environment and that animals were not being mistreated because of my diet… but those were just added benefits.
I feed my dog nature’s balance vegan dry kibble, along with a plethora of supplements (see below), simply because I want for her to live another 10 years and remain as energetic, lucid and healthy as she always has been.
(Vitamins: A,D,E,C,K,B-1,2,6,12,Panthothenic Acid, Folic Acid, Paba, Choline, Inositol, Rutin,Biotin; Minerals: calcium, magnesium, phosphorus, potassium, sodium, zinc, Cooper, manganese, iodine, sulphuric, silica, molybdenum, boron, selenium, iron; Protein: alanine, arginine, aspartic acid, asparagine, cystine, cystiene, glycine, glutamic acid, histidine, hydroxyproline, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methsonine, valine, ornithine, phenylalanine, proline, serine, threonine, glutamine, tyrosine, taurine; Enzymes: amlase, trypsin, papain, lipase, protease, protease, bromelain, pepsin, ditase, pectase; Essential Farty Acids: arachidonic acid, linolenic acid, linoleic acid, oleic acid (Norwegian Kelp, ground Flaxseed, nutritional yeast, garlic, calcium citrate, lecithin, borage seed, lactobacillus, acidophilus + amino acids and enzymes))Madison LMember
Thank you so much for the information.
I find it interesting that most doctors would claim a vegan diet is unhealthy, solely based on the fact that I have received the opposite insight from doctors, (considering they are indeed talking about my overall health entirely). I do agree, however, if they deemed a vegan diet not as healthy as a omnivorous diet, I would still choose to be a vegan for ethical and environmental reasons.
I ask the following question in the least offensive way possible: why is it your dog is still fed a vegan diet if it is the healthiest choice, and you yourself do not avoid consuming meat and dairy products? I do understand your dog will eat what you feed her, healthy or unhealthy. We control what we consume as well.
How do you prepare the additional vitamins, minerals, and enzymes? Do you include these mixed in with the dry kibble? Does Nature’s Balance test on animals? Also, does your dog need to consume more of the vegan dry food than she would a meat and vegetable-based kibble? My coonhound eats four meals each day: 3.5 cups dry and 1/4 cup wet, in total per day. He has a high energy level and metabolism, and we hike/walk/play outside for about 2-3 hours per day, through ought the day.
I am very interested in learning more about dogs on vegan diets. If it is like you said, that doctors and veterinarians are not educated in nutrition and do not support a vegan diet, who do we speak to about it to learn more about a dog’s nutritional needs? (Aside from what we’re doing right now).anne hMember
The biggest threat to the health and longevity of Dogs is human ignorance. Bramble, who lived to 25 years old was in my care all her life. My first Dog Floyd was fed vegan. Floyd lived to twenty years old. All other dogs in my care lived to 19 or 20 except two killed by vets [one had his prostrate cut out in error and the other died after a vaccination gave her encephalitis]. Everyone else lived to 19,20 or Bramble 25. All fed vegan. So it doesnt matter what you believe. It doesnt matter if Dogs grew up eating meat or if you think this is natural. What is proven is properly put together vegan diets can significantly extend Dogs lives. Vets hardly have any nutritional training and most of their canine clients die earlier than Dogs in my care did. Vets get most of their income from the Drug industry so they are not there to build health in Dogs but to maintain them as clients. An average Collie death age would be 14 years old. If you want a Dog that dies at fourteen keep feeding commercial food that is considered UNFIT for human consumption. If you want a Dog with cancers and other chronic illness, keep feeding processed muck. Do not tell other people Dogs must have flesh because it just isnt true. There are many vegan Dogs around now, healthy and happy. Bramble incidentally was running about and swimming right up until she died.The formula is properly researched vegan food, LOTS of exercise [minimum five hours a day was what Dogs in my care had, via two of us walking with them], stress management [keeping them free of irritating company], they had their own rooms, pretty much constant company [ie someone always around to care for them, but not always in their faces if they didnt want that]. One of us [two carers] stayed home while the other one was working shifts, to make sure they were ok. Also treating them like the intelligent individuals they are is really important. They were never told what to do and were allowed , within the bounds of safety to make decisions themselves [ie where they wanted to walk that day, stay out longer if they wanted etc]. I taught Floyd many human words and she had a good understanding of human language [anyone who doesnt think Animal can understand us well have you seen the videos of the primate that could use sign language?] I explain more in my book [Bramble; The Dog who wanted to live forever. The Somerset notes].I wrote it to allow people to replicate my record on longevity with Dogs in their
care.Its buyable on Amazon or free in Kindle library. I dont make money from this, because I give it to someone who helped with the Dogs when they were alive. So its out there purely for education. My plea would be please dont limit the amount of years Dogs in your care can live because of your own beliefs. Look at the evidence of healthy vegan Dogs that are around everywhere now.BJ CMember
I agree that dogs are evolved to prefer meat. However, there are lots of vegetarian, veggie plus and all-natural dog food options out there. If you live in a rural area, often the best place to look for these top tier dog foods is online. I have found a lot of great healthy, all natural dog food options on Urth Market
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