[judy w]

Hi, i just gave my dog Zack, almost 13 year old cavalier king charles spaniel, his first dose of 20mg Galliprant. the vet gave it to me for him on Thursday but i have wanted to avoid NSAIDs, they can be gnarly. Fortunately he’s been healthy and hasn’t needed meds for anything, except he has advanced mitral valve disease and was prescribed Vetmedin a year ago, i have not started that yet because his heart was compensating so well, he is still not in heart failure–something that could happen at any time, or might not.

I have a recent prescription of Vetmedin but have not started it yet, partly because another problem started, about 3 weeks ago, Zack started going downhill suddenly, i thought it was heart failure but went to cardiologist and he said still no sign of it, symptoms Zack was having included moving stiffly, and difficulty with eating. He had a good appetite but showed hesitation and reluctance to eat, and had lost a couple of pounds, from 25 to 23.1, since his March cardiology eval.

Something very wrong, before this, he’s never had any sign of osteo-arthritic symptoms, and i didn’t think of it at first, thought it was heart failure. i took him to his regular vet Thursday as he kept declining, he stopped wagging his tail, it was hanging down, never seen that before in his life, and losing interest in the things outside that he used to bark at and not wanting to go out, and sometimes he only ate when i fed him by hand. As of now it’s like that all the time, i tip his bowl up so it’s easy for him to get it out and he only licks it, he doesn’t bite it but i shovel it into his mouth with a plastic spoon. He eats hungrily. He eats his normal two portions a day and wants more . He eats hungrily in the morning and late at night but decidedly doesn’t want food all day long–if i offer it, he goes the other way, even though i’m not trying to force it on him or anything.

He seems to sleep through the night, i’m sure he wakes but goes back to sleep as he does all day, he also just lays wake, looking at me, which is normal, he was always a dog who didn’t sleep a lot, he’s very interested and sociable. When these symptoms started, he stopped sleeping in my room with me and now sleeps in the bathroom on the floor, not on the rug, he pushes the rug aside.

The regular vet said on Thursday that his spine is in pain and possibly his neck. she said his abdomen was distended. She prescribed Galliprant.

He had a prescription of Rimadyl about 10 years ago for a pain that made him limp and was thought to be in the neck but they never could locate it with X-ray or palpation. So, i gave him the first Rimadyl and went to work. i came home that night and found that he had vomited blood and had no appetite and was not his happy self. Of course, i stopped the medication, besides, i usually like to see if things go away on their own. So after the Rimadyl caused him to vomit blood and act like he felt really bad and i stopped it, i can’t remember if he had had one dose or two, i went back to the vet and he told me to keep giving him the Rimadyl. Of course, i didn’t. He said the side effects would go away. but after the alarming symptoms, i had googled Rimadyl and there were some very sad horror stories—not that most dogs on it will have the worst results, but since mine had a bleeding stomach, that was enough of a red flag for me. And it bothered me that the vet would say to keep giving it to him. He is the owner of the practice, it has several vets and i’ve had a few i like very much, but i never saw him again, by my choice, i think differently from how he thinks

The vet i’m seeing now is his daughter. i like her. She knows how i am afraid of NSAIDs after the Rimadyl, for my dog, i’m not saying most dogs will have a problem but mine had it right away which is probably unusual. anyway, all these years he’s been healthy.
Now he is having symptoms of being in pain that is making him have difficulty moving.

So, his regular vet said Galliprant is safer. She gave me a sample of 5 pills. it made made me uncomfortable to give him a 24 hour release pill, i would rather have shorter duration so that if anything goes wrong, it can be stopped right away instead of a more delayed ending of the effect.

So i’m freaked out, i just gave it to him. i can see no sign that he’s getting better from whatever it wrong with him. i read most of the posts on this discussion and i hope he will have the result of the medication taking the pain of whatever is wrong with him away.

The day after i saw the vet, i took him to a holistic vet and he had an acupuncture treatment. At the first vet, he was given cold laser treatment. Yesterday, Saturday, i had him back for another cold laser treatment. He seemed better yesterday than for several days before, not sure if it was related to the cold laser, but he wagged his tail for the first time. Other than a few small signs like that, and starting to make an effort to jump into the car on his own (but i intervened and helped him, he continues to be awfully fragile), he is still very messed up. When we got home, as usual, he had a hard time walking up the one step from the back yard into the house, which he was just jumped over before this thing. it’s clearly very painful for him to make that step, it’s his spine, the pressure climbing the step causes, i think. The vet didn’t do X-rays because he just had some in March. i am going to get X-rays and an ultrasound this week.

Today i got him another cold laser treatment but he isn’t any better. No tail wagging today though he did show a weak impulse to jump into the car which i took over. Even when he’s well, he’s had a hard time with that jump. Maybe he injured himself trying to make it one time, i wasn’t paying attention and don’t have any theories of what happened to him.

i’m scared of the Galliprant. i hope he will have a miraculous disappearance of his pain like some people have reported. i appreciated the ideas and suggestions about giving lower dose and skipping a day every now and then to try to avoid serious gastro-intestinal issues. i gave the whole 20mg tonight and will do that for a couple more days at least.

Also, the vet put him on Clavamox, a broad spectrum antibiotic. This was because she did a complete blood panel, everything was normal except BANDS, which i had never heard of it, it’s part of the blood cell count and his was a little elevated. The holistic vet didn’t think it was significant–but i have used Clavamox/Augmentin over the years and never had any problem with adverse effects so i have started him on that tonight too. Both the antibiotic and Galliprant can cause GI symptoms, so if he does get them, i don’t know what to do.

Normally, he has regular and firm stools, but the other day i saw him having difficulty going, it looked like he couldn’t bend his spine, his back was straight rather than the usual curved back they have when they poop. His legs were in the normal hunched pooping position but his back was straight so it looked like he was standing up to poop. And he didn’t succeed. The next day he had a normal stool, i couldn’t see him because plants were in the way, as far as the position he was in, but it was firm/soft, but the end of it was getting to an unformed condition, and then there was a separate liquid puddle.

Since Galliprant is so new, only been around about a year, i am wanting to stay tuned with pet owner reports and am glad to find this discussion.

[Evelyn H]

Maybe I wasn’t clear in my question, or in my experience in feeding animals. I am old enough to remember two choices of dog food at the store…Purina canned and Purina in a bag. I’ve owned everything from pasture mutts to show dogs. I’ve been feeding animals over the past 80+ decades and have learned a great deal about it over the years, but today’s selection of pet foot products can be overwhelming. I was simply trying to see if anyone else has had the same experience with HALO food specifically. I do appreciate the tip about Zignature Zssentials… It was one of 5 foods the vet and I narrowed it down to…it’s just not readily available in my area & I’m so old I’m used to buying dog food at the store, not picking it up at the mailbox. Hence, the introduction to HALO, also in our top 5, and available at my local PetSmart. I still believe in food transitions for numerous gastrointestinal reasons, but respect the “get it over with” approach. 🙂 Also did not know about broccoli addition, will definitely look into that further. HALO users….where are you? I welcome your responses.

[Spy Car]

@RottieMom, it is notoriously hard on dog’s GI tracts to process large amounts of low quality and low calorie processed foods that are mostly plant-based ingredients and/or carbohydrates.

As a species, the kibble diet is a very unnatural one for dogs. And the capacity to process carbohydrates is unevenly distributed among the dog population.

My very active Vizsla eats meat, organs, and edible bones. Not a huge amount (since the meals are nutrient dense and bioavailable. He has no need to process “fillers” since there are none in his diet. In consequence, his stools are very small and well-formed and look almost like they come from a different species. They look more like wild-animal scat compared to the loose and huge plops of poop left by kibble fed dogs.

Unfortunately, most kibble formulas include a lot of low-nutrient “stuff” that a dog has to pass through its GI tract with little or no benefit and with a lot of downsides. This is very rough on dogs and harder on some than others.

I trust that you will get a lot of contradictory advice on this thread. I’m telling you the benefits I’ve seen feeding dogs as nature intended vs the cereal-based commercial diets that large marketing efforts have convinced too many of us to accept as “normal” when it is in fact not in the interest of our canine companions.

You will have to use your own inner-intelligence to weight the options.

Best.

Bill

[Susan]

Hi,
I would look for a limited ingredient single protein dry kibble, this Victor Active has 4 meats, excellent for a dog who has a healthy Intestinal tract..
My boy has IBD I had to start with a vet diet, then once we found a vet diet that agreed with him & firmed his poos & was doing 2 small firm poos a day “Eukanuba Intestinal” Low Residue formula he had to stay on Eukanuba Intestinal vet diet for 6-12months to strengthen his immune system (Gut), then after 9months, I started trying a new dry kibble but it had to have 1 single meat, limited ingredient kibble & he finally did well on Taste Of The Wild Pacific Stream, Smoked Salmon but in Australia our some of our TOTW formula’s do NOT have any Peas, Lentils Chickpeas like the America TOTW, we still get the old TOTW formula’s.. he did really well on the peas free TOTW Pacific Stream Salmon formula except he started vomiting back up the dry kibble, now I’ve learnt to stay away from any fish kibbles as they are higher in Contaminates & Toxins, I changed him over to the TOTW Sierra Mountain Roasted Lamb formula it just has Lamb as meat protein & he did really well, no skin problems & firm poo’s, then I started introducing other foods in his diet so he’d get use to different ingredients, I even went thru a Animal Nutritionist & put him on a raw elimination diet, Kangarro & blended veggies, his poos were beautiful BUT he kept regurgitating back up water & some digested raw, then he was getting bad acid reflux & after regurgitating the raw the acid burnt esophagus so I put him back on dry food & started to cook the raw diet & feed it for Lunch & feed 4 smaller meals thru the day..

I would take baby steps, you will know once she has stopped taken all her meds…
Why does your 4-5 month old pup have UTI’s, she is so young?? also the pancreas test, you’d know if she had Pancreas problems, she’d be vomiting sometimes, eating grass & having pancreas pain & maybe sloppy poo’s, but her Pancreas would young & healthy??
I really think she is too young to be having problems with her Pancreas??..
What colour are her poos?? if her poos are yellow, smelly & sloppy look into Small Intestinal Bowel Overgrowth, S.I.B.O……while she was taking Metronidazole (Flagyl) were her poos better? sometimes they need to take the Metronidazole for 21-28 days to kill any bad bacteria in stomach/small bowel.. this is what Patch ended up having SIBO & Helicobacter-Pylori, it took a few years to get everything healthy aagain, now I can feed him any foods as long as he’s not sensitive to those ingredients, he does well on Chicken for stomach & bowel BUT not for his skin, he gets red yeasty paws & red skin around his mouth after he eats Chicken, Barley, Oats, Tapioca, Corn & cooked Carrots make his ears itchy…

If you can afford a vet diet that’s where I’d start, as Intestinal Vet diets have FOS, MOS, Inulin, Vitamin B, Beet Pulp, everything to help make the Intestinal Tract healthy, then once she is stable on a vet diet for at least 6 months then start her on a premium dog food that only has 1 meat protein & a few carbs..but slowly start introducing over 2 week period if you see her poos going sloppy while introducing new food, then stop new food & go back a few steps & stay on what she was doing firm poos on & keep a diary write everything down, food, ingredients, flea med, worm meds etc just in case you needs to remember certain things….I wouldnt give her any of those Flea chews yet, just use the spot on flea repellents for now till you work out her stomach bowel problem, just in case she has a very sensitive stomach/bowel, I just read a post on a Staffy f/b group, the lady gave her dog a Bravecto chew will the vet gave her dog the Bravecto chew & he’s been in vet hospital on a drip now for 1 week, dont ever vaccinate, worm & give flea chews all at the same time some vets do this on vet visits I know teh rescue vets do this & some dog can not cope always leave 1-2 weeks inbetween meds vaccination & flea repellents etc
How much does the bag of kibble say to feed her for the weight of your pup? maybe feed 3 smaller meals a day, thats what your suppose to feed a puppy 3 meals a day then they go to the 2 larger meals as they are older.. also have you tried boiled chicken or turkey breast & some boiled potato or try boil rice & see are her poos firm?? maybe for lunch over weekend try a small cooked meal, or a wet can vet diet the Royal Canine Intestinal low fiber is really good, some vet diets are formulated for growning pups your vet will know which ones Im pretty sure the Hills I/D Digestive Care wet & dry is formulataed for growing pups this way you”ll see does she do firm poos over a 2 week period? or try the single meat limited carbs next & see if poos are sloppy then try a vet diet.. Keep us informed with what happens with Zanya’s health….

[Patricia A]

Just like to share this. By Dr. Karen Shaw Becker

Thirty years ago, researchers at the School of Veterinary Medicine at University of California, Davis discovered the link between taurine deficiency and dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM), a heart muscle disease in cats.1 According to Morris Animal Foundation, “The veterinary community was stunned” by this news, in part because the UC-Davis researchers were able to prove that DCM was reversible when cats received the amount of taurine they needed in their diet.2

Of course, most holistic veterinarians and others knowledgeable about veterinary nutrition and who understand the link between diet and disease weren’t surprised. Taurine, which is an amino acid, is found in meat, and cats, as meat-eating obligate carnivores, haven’t developed the ability to make their own taurine.

This means it’s an essential amino acid for cats — they must get it from their diet, and 30 years ago when UC-Davis veterinarians made their discovery, we were well into the age of processed pet food, having made cats (and dogs) almost entirely dependent on humans for their nutrition.

Pet food formulators often guessed at the effects of extensive processing on nutrients. This is especially true for pet food (feed) that blends leftover pieces and parts from the human meat processing industry with other sources of questionable nutrients before they are rendered and cooked at high temperatures, depleting the nutrients that existed before processing, as well as altering the chemical composition of ingredients (and often creating toxic byproducts along the way).

Are Dogs With DCM Taurine-Deficient?
As soon as the UC-Davis researchers published their findings in cats back in the late 1980s, veterinary cardiologists began looking for taurine and other nutrient deficiencies in their canine patients with DCM.

No direct cause-and-effect relationship could be established, since the vast majority of dogs with DCM weren’t taurine-deficient. Taurine is not considered an essential amino acid for dogs because like many other species, their bodies have the metabolic capacity to manufacture taurine from the dietary amino acids cysteine and methionine.

To further confuse the issue, while the disease is inherited in certain breeds, for example, the Doberman Pinscher, in other breeds it is indeed linked to taurine deficiency. In the mid-1990s, UC-Davis conducted a study of American Cocker Spaniels with DCM and found low taurine levels in many of the dogs. The study authors wrote in their abstract:

“We conclude that ACS [American Cocker Spaniels] with DCM are taurine-deficient and are responsive to taurine and carnitine supplementation. Whereas myocardial function did not return to normal in most dogs, it did improve enough to allow discontinuation of cardiovascular drug therapy and to maintain a normal quality of life for months to years.”3

A 2003 study showed that some Newfoundlands had taurine deficiency-related DCM,4 and two years later, another study was published about a family of Golden Retrievers with taurine deficiency and reversible DCM.5 As veterinary cardiologists continued to encounter cases of taurine deficiency-related DCM in dogs, and continued to search for a common link, diet was thought to play a major role in development of the disease.

UC-Davis Is Currently Conducting Research on Taurine Deficiency-Related DCM in Golden Retrievers
The dogs receiving the most focus right now due to escalating rates of DCM related to taurine deficiency are Golden Retrievers. Veterinarian and researcher Dr. Joshua Stern, Chair of the Department of (Veterinary) Cardiology at UC-Davis, and owner of a Golden Retriever Lifetime Study participant named Lira, is looking into the situation.

He’s collecting blood samples and cardiac ultrasound results from Goldens both with DCM and without the disease. Stern agrees diet plays a role, but he also suspects there are genes at work that increase the risk of the condition in the breed.

“I suspect that Golden Retrievers might have something in their genetic make-up that makes them less efficient at making taurine,” Stern told the Morris Animal Foundation. “Couple that with certain diets, and you’ve given them a double hit. If you feed them a diet that has fewer building blocks for taurine or a food component that inhibits this synthesis, they pop up with DCM.”6

Dr. Stern has written an open letter to veterinarians and owners of Goldens that you can read here. In it, he briefly explains his research and recommends a four-step process dog parents can undertake if they believe their pet is at risk for, or is showing signs of DCM:

1. If you believe your dog is at risk for taurine-deficient Dilated Cardiomyopathy (DCM) and wish to have taurine levels tested, please request a whole blood taurine level be submitted (lithium heparin tube) for analysis. The laboratory I recommend can be found here.

2. If you believe your dog is showing signs of DCM already, please seek an appointment with a board-certified cardiologist to have an echocardiogram and taurine testing obtained simultaneously — do not change foods, do not supplement prior to the appointment.

3. If you receive taurine test results that come back as low, please seek an appointment with a board certified cardiologist to have an echocardiogram performed to determine if your pet needs cardiac medications and the appropriate supplements to be used (DO NOT SUPPLEMENT OR CHANGE FOODS UNTIL YOU HAVE THE CARDIOLOGY EVALUATION COMPLETED).

If you live in close to UC Davis, we can arrange research-funded cardiology evaluations for your dog if you contact at this email address.

4. If you receive cardiologist-confirmed DCM results, please take an image of the food bag, ingredient list and lot number. Please also request a copy of the images from the echocardiogram from your cardiologist (ensure that you have full DICOM image copies on a CD). Please download and complete the full diet history form found at this link.

Please email the image of food bag, a three-generation pedigree, diet history form, copies of the taurine level results and medical record to this email address. A member of our laboratory team will contact you to discuss our thoughts and possibly request additional information, food samples or blood samples for further testing.

Stern wants to get to the bottom of this issue as fast and as medically appropriately as possible. He hopes to publish his initial findings soon and offer scientifically based guidelines for Golden parents regarding diet and DCM. If you’re interested in published research on taurine deficiency and canine DCM, Stern also created a collection of files you can download at this link.

A Particular Brand of Grain-Free Kibble Is Implicated in Some Cases of Diet-Related DCM in Goldens
Although Stern doesn’t discuss specific diets in his letter linked above, according to Dr. Janet Olson of Veterinary Cardiology Specialists:

” … [T]he majority of cases [of taurine deficiency-related DCM in Golden Retrievers] they [Stern and his team] are seeing at UC-Davis are from grain free diets that are high in legumes, like ACANA pork and squash [kibble].”7

Other sources, including a Golden Retriever owner in Mountain View, CA who contacted us, also mention the same food — ACANA Pork and Squash Singles Formula limited ingredient kibble made by Champion Petfoods. According to my Mountain View source, Dr. Stern has been following a group of Goldens with DCM who had been eating the ACANA formula, and a year later, after changes to their diet, taurine supplementation and in some cases, the use of heart medications, all 20+ dogs either fully or significantly recovered.

Consumers who’ve contacted Champion about the issue receive a response stating that taurine isn’t an essential amino acid for dogs, and ACANA and ORIJEN diets are formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO dog food nutrient profiles for all life stages. (Since taurine isn’t considered an essential amino acid for dogs, AAFCO dog food nutrient profiles establish no minimum requirement for taurine.)

Champion acknowledges that a taurine deficiency may contribute to the incidence of DCM in genetically susceptible dogs, but states their diets aren’t formulated for dogs with “special needs.”

Are All the Starchy Ingredients in Grain-Free Kibble to Blame?
Since grain-free dry dog food is a relatively new concept, it’s quite possible there’s something about the high-starch (carb) content in these diets that depletes taurine levels and/or makes the taurine less bioavailable. The problem might be related to a chemical reaction (called the Maillard reaction) between taurine and a carbohydrate during the extrusion process that depletes the digestible taurine level in the food.

And while legumes are being singled out as the potential problematic ingredient, grain-free kibble is often higher in both whole carbohydrates and purified starches (e.g., pea starch, potato starch and tapioca starch) than grain-based dry dog food. The higher the starch level in any pet food, the less protein is included.

In a study published in 1996 on the effect of high heat processing of cat food on taurine availability, the researchers noted, “These results suggest that Maillard reaction products promote an enteric flora that favors degradation of taurine and decreases recycling of taurine by the enterohepatic route.”8

Said another way: The byproducts of the chemical reaction between amino acids and sugars (carbs) in dry cat food alter the microbiome (gut bacteria), causing degradation of the taurine in the food, reducing its availability to the cat, and also preventing the taurine from being efficiently recycled by the cat’s body.

An earlier study published in 1990 that looked at taurine levels in a commercial diet that was fed heat-processed to some cats and frozen-preserved to others drew the same conclusion. The researchers stated ” … processing affects the digestive and/or absorptive process in a manner that increases the catabolism of taurine by gastrointestinal microorganisms.”9

Other Factors That Influence the Taurine Content of Pet Food/Feed
A 2003 study published in the Journal of Animal Physiology and Animal Nutrition looked at taurine concentrations in the ingredients often used in both home prepared and commercial pet diets, as well as how cooking influences taurine content.10

The researchers reported that animal muscle tissue, especially marine animals, contains high levels of taurine, whereas plant-based ingredients contained either low or undetectable amounts. Also, the amount of taurine that remains after cooking is somewhat dependent on the method of food preparation. When an ingredient was cooked in water (e.g., boiling or basting), more taurine was lost unless the water used to cook the food was included with the meal.

Food preparation that minimized water loss (e.g., baking or frying) retained more of the taurine, however, it’s important to note that heat processing in any form destroys anywhere from 50 to 100 percent of taurine present in raw food. In addition, extended periods of storage of processed pet foods, and freezing, thawing and grinding of raw pet food also depletes taurine content.11

Another UC-Davis study published in 2016 evaluated the taurine status of large breed dogs fed low-protein diets (lamb and rice formulas), since they are now known to be at increased risk for taurine deficiency-related DCM.12 The researchers specifically looked at the ingredients rice bran and beet pulp used in many of these diets, and determined that while rice bran didn’t seem to be a primary cause of taurine deficiency, beet pulp may be a culprit.

Both rice bran and beet pulp bind bile acids (bile acids should be recycled, which effectively recycles taurine) in the small intestine, and increase excretion (which is undesirable) because it depletes taurine by interfering with the enterohepatic recycling of taurine-conjugated bile salts and lowers total body taurine levels.

Grain-free/”low-protein” commercial diets are very high in carbohydrates, which displace amino acids. They also contain anti-nutrients (e.g., saponins, trypsin inhibitors, phytates and lectins) that may interfere with taurine absorption. When you add in the high-heat processing used to manufacture kibble, it’s hardly surprising these diets aren’t an adequate source of taurine for many dogs.

How You Can Protect Your Dog
Those of us who are passionate about animal nutrition have been having a painful awakening for some time now about just how nutrient-deficient many dogs and cats are today. The taurine-DCM issue in dogs is yet another example that animals need much higher levels of bioavailable amino acids from a variety of sources than most are consuming.

Unfortunately, some processed pet food advocates are using the link between grain-free dog foods and DCM to try to push pet parents back in the direction of grain-based diets. Don’t be fooled. The problem with grain-free formulas isn’t the lack of grains! It’s the high level of starchy carbohydrates coupled with the extreme high-heat processing methods used to produce these diets.

Until we have much more information on the subject, my current recommendation is to supplement all dogs with high-taurine foods, no matter what type of diet they’re eating. An easy way to do this is to simply mix a can of sardines into your pet’s meal once a week. You can also find the taurine content of many other foods on page two of this study and also in this Raw Feeding Community article.

If you have a breed or breed mix known to be susceptible to DCM (e.g., Golden Retriever, Doberman Pinscher, Cocker Spaniel, Boxer, Great Dane, Scottish Deerhound, Irish Wolfhound, Saint Bernard, Afghan Hound, Dalmatian, Portuguese Water dog, Old English Sheepdog, Newfoundland), especially if you’ve been feeding grain-free kibble, or if for some other reason you’re concerned about your dog’s heart health, I recommend following Dr. Joshua Stern’s four-step process outlined above, starting with a visit to your veterinarian.

[Christine W]

I took this VERY seriously when i read it,and contacted my vet.I feed my Pugs Wellness grain free & Science Diet weight control ( eye roll) which they went on strike when i took it away,BUT may be a good thing now? This is only part of what she replied:

One thing that may come to light in the future is the exact percentage of meat that composes these diets. DCM has been linked to a low level of taurine, which is an amino acid that is found in certain meats or animal proteins. Dogs can also synthesize taurine from a precursor called cysteine that is often found in ingredients besides protein eg grains. If there truly is a causation, we may also find that certain grain free starches may actually prevent absorption of taurine or prevent it from being synthesized from the precursor cysteine (this is just a hypothesis-I am not aware of any science that has proven this theory yet).

One common misconception is that grain free diets actually help pets with allergies. This may be true in some cases, but in studies, we have found that most pets are actually allergic or sensitive to the protein and not the grain in diets. Unfortunately, through advertising, many pet food companies have pushed owners to believe that ‘grain free’ means healthier and less allergies, and we have seen many owners opt for more expensive grain free food because of this. The majority of pets do great on diets containing grain.

[crazy4cats]

Hi Tara-

Congratulations on your new pup. Sounds like she’s having a bit of a rough start. I would not change anything yet! She has already been through so much. Most of the time it’s best to leave a new puppy on the food they were eating when you first get them. This allows them to get settled in a bit before you switch things up. However, it’s too late for that. Pumpkin never worked for me either. Let her tummy settle down a bit after finishing up her meds and dewormer.

Did the vet recommend using FortiFlora? That always seems to help my dogs when they get loose stools. Are you feeding 3 or 4 small meals to her? Also, if her UTI pills are an antibiotic, they tend to give dogs (and humans) loose stools. I know it’s tough because I’ve been there. Constantly changing things can make it worse. You’ll never figure out what is causing the issue then. As long as she’s staying hydrated she’ll be OK.

Give it another week and ask your vet about a probiotic, such as FortiFlora. I’m curious, how was she doing on Beneful when you got her? Also, do you know how big she will get?

I’d love to know how she is doing. I went through something similar with my dogs. Report back and good luck!

[Susan]

Hi,
Legumes, are Lentils, Beans, Peas, adzuki beans, black beans, soybeans, anasazi beans, fava beans, garbanzo beans (chickpeas), kidney beans and lima beans, legumes also include alfalfa, clover, lupin bean, mesquite, carob, peanuts and tamarind.

I never read or saw anything on the net about potatoes being involved??
maybe it’s cause grain free diets have PEAS & ingredients like Potatoes & Peas or Sweet Potatoes & Peas, so the FDA have mentioned Potatoes cause of the high amount of “peas” ??
Beans are a legume, Potatoes are tubers, and Cucumbers are gourds…
Potatoes always get a bad wrap, in the beginning most grainfree foods had Potatoes & Sweet potatoes & people started saying potatoes cause yeast in dogs, which is untrue. People seem to think starchy carbs cause yeast in dogs when it’s the protein in the carb that the dog is sensitive too that causes yeasty ears, skin & paws or its environment allegies causing the dogs yeast problems, this is when Lentils started to replace the healthy Sweet Potato, Sweet potatos are low Gi, easy to digest & great for dogs with stomach & bowel problems… I like pet foods that have Sweet Potato, Potato, Brown Rice, Sorghum, Millet, fruit & veggies etc…
Here’s “EarthBorn Holistic” formula’s, Ocean Fusion & Adult Vintage both these formula have NO Peas, No Legumes, these formula’s have grains & Sweet potato & Potato…..
https://www.earthbornholisticpetfood.com/dog-food-formulas/holistic/ocean-fusion

also “Canidae” make their all Life Stages formula’s, there’s “Platinum” for Less Active dogs, weight loss or there’s Canidae’s other ALS formula’s Chicken Meal & Rice and Lamb Meal & Rice have peas but the peas are 6th ingredient..
https://www.canidae.com/dog-food/products/canidae-all-life-stages-platinum-dry-formula

It’s best to Rotate between a few different brands this way your dog isn’t eating the same dog food 24/7 & if something is wrong with 1 of the brands you’re feeding then your rotating between different brands hopefully avoiding long term health problems…..

I think these pet food companies read Legumes are healthy (for Humans) mainly eaten by vegetarians for the high protein %, so Pet Food companies thought this is GREAT the meat protein % will also go up when we add Lentils & Chickpeas & we won’t have to use as much meat protein, pet food companies know people will read Lentils, Chickpea’s are healthy for humans & will buy these pet foods for their dogs thinking that Lentils are healthy for their dogs & cats aswell & now we are seeing the results…. It’s not good

About 1-2 yrs ago in the DFA Reviews” section people were posting in the “Zignature” section saying their dogs were having Urinary Tract problems, it was the Lentils causing these problems, 1 lady posted all 4 of her rescued dogs where also having Urinary Tract Problems (UTI’s) & the only food she was feeding them all was Zignature that is very high in Legumes…

[pitlove]

As far as meeting other dogs go, its best to start with friendly, calm dogs you are already familiar with. The worst thing you can do is bring her to a dog park. The play is not structured and you never know what sort of temperament the dogs will be there. There are people that bring dog/toy aggressive dogs to parks because they just dont care. That and not everyone vaccinates there pets and has them on flea prevention, so you never know what she can pick up. Keep letting her play with your friends dogs and get comfortable with them.

[Debbie D]

Vaccine=seizures
Been there, never doing vaccines again.
Please get the exact name of the vaccine, dose, etc and research it for adverse reactions.
Vaccinosis is the proper term for a vaccine reaction, which includes seizures.
Also research vaccinosis and lyme vaccine
Lyme is the worst vaccine out there for reactions.
Lyme is treatable with antibiotics but even better with Colloidal Silver.
Why risk this horrible vaccine when you can simply treat the disease if and when it ever occurs (very rare disease.)
Read what Dr. Becker has to say about vaccine guidelines:
“A rare new set of canine vaccine guidelines was just released, and they contain a stunning departure from their orthodox way of thinking”
https://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2017/12/20/canine-vaccine-guidelines.aspx
Read What Dr. Becker says about the apparently benign Lyme Disease:
https://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2017/04/05/canine-lyme-disease-prevention-tips.aspx

[Debbie D]

To solve this problem and gain enough knowledge (and spend enough $$$$ at vet clinics) it took me 10 years. I am glad to say we have kicked this problem 100%. I am very sad though that my pets had to suffer for 10 years before we found the solution. Several of the answers here are on the mark, however, there are some missing pieces of information. Here are the components of the solution that results in the ear problems clearing up in addition to every other allergy issue a dog may have. You can’t do just one thing, you have to address all aspects of care:
1. Diet
2. Flea control poisons
3. Heartworm and Parasite poisons
4. Vaccinosis
5. Chiropractic
6. Vet type
We solved this problem when we started going to alternative vets and Chiropractic vets. I spent thousands at the veterinary clinic, hundreds at the alternative clinics and next to nothing at the Chiropractic vets. The alternative vets (3 of them) were all indispensable. One used Chinese herbs, another acupuncture and another (the best) used a combination of modalities including cold laser, acupuncture, Chiropractic, nutrition, and herbs. The Chiropractic vets gave the most bang for the buck but it took to a visit to five different ones to settle on our favorites. Yes, hard to believe, but a spinal adjustment can be miraculous in calming down allergies. The older the dog the more likely they need this treatment. Some Chiropractors also have cold laser treatments. Go to AVCA.org to find a pet Chiropractor. Some states require Chiros to be vets (like Texas) and others (Oklahoma) allow human Chiros to treat pets. There are advantages both ways.

So bottom line, we now feed NO commercial food but instead feed raw chicken plus a home cooked chicken and vegetable stew. We freeze it in daily portion size containers. This raw food supplemented diet eliminated all parasites (fleas, ticks, heart worms, intestinal worms, etc.) thereby eliminating our need for poisons. Raw diet also eliminated our need for vaccines (titer testing proved this.) Eliminating vaccines eliminated the need for steroid therapy that the vets kept pushing on our dogs. Eliminating flea control like Nextgard, Trifexis, Comfortis, Frontline, and Advantage was a major step forward. These chemicals/drugs were a major cause of itching in our Pugs and we tried them all. These chemicals also caused sores and weeping irritated skin.
Once our dogs were already having out of control skin issues we had to use shampoos and aloe vera in addition to dietary changes. We switched to duck and fed only (USA) Merrick commercial dog food and this was a major improvement. However, the real change came with the raw. We eventually eliminated the Merrick except for traveling/hiking and emergencies. It took about 3 months to a year of proper feeding to stop the fleas dead in their tracks. We used flea combs and Ark Naturals Neem Shampoo to check for fleas.
In one dog, we had to get a prescription of Apoquel (new drug only at select vets) to stop the itching (instead of dangerous steroids.) This was an emergency measure because itching causes scratching which leads to staph infections in ears and on the skin/belly.
The ear itching and yeast infection eventually led to staph infection also from the dogs scratching their ears. To clear this up we used a combination of products over several months. I will list the products and their purpose.
1. Zymox enzymatic ear solution (green bottle) for yeast/bacteria
2. Olive Oil drops – extra virgin for yeast/bacteria
3. Colloidal Silver (10ppm) dropped in ears for yeast/infection
4. 7-Day feminine antifungal cream (yeast only, outside of ears and bumpy noses/folds)
Zymox was best for yeast. Olive oil was the best for everything including swelling of the ear canal. Colloidal Silver kicked the secondary infections almost overnight.
Moist ears is a side effect of yeast infection, not a cause. Swimmers ear is a result not of the water but of having a dietary systemic yeast infection before your dog ever goes swimming.
Taking our dogs swimming in a creek or lake had no effect on the ears, however, swimming in a chlorinated pool did aggravate the ears and skin.
The feminine yeast cream has been a real life saver. We use the weakest version and only apply it to ear flaps. If you want Miconazole ear drops, you’ll have to go to the vet for that. But honestly, the olive oil is just as good. The problem with prescription drugs is that they usually only treat one bug, unlike the first three items on my list.
I hope someone finds this useful.
Since this is a dog food website, i will give my two cents on dog food brands (never feed dry): Highest quality, readily available brands are Merrick, Nature’s Variety, Primal Freeze Dried Raw, and Orijen. No, I would never feed Blue. I’ve been in the pet business for most of my life and I know secrets about many brands that will make your skin crawl. I will not lookup or recommend any brands other than the ones I listed.
I am chronicling my personal experiences on a blog so feel free to visit as you like. Snortlepuss.com
DogFoodAdvisor.com is one of the best resources a person can have for learning about brands. Please take the ratings seriously and only feed to top rated foods.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Debbie D. Reason: missing info

[Jaky S]

Hi anon101,

Thank you for that very enlightening information. However, where science fails, which is the case in this circumstance, the natural path can sometimes succeed. I discovered Bach and homeopathy when my cat was given a death sentence due to FIP. Our homeopath did help a few cats recover from the disease where vets would give up. When the vet couldn’t figure out how to rid my cat of her wheezing after 3 yrs I finally got with the same homeopath for a consult and she rid her of her condition. Furthermore, as far as I can tell MJ is already doing everything conventionally possible to find a cure for their pet to no avail. I agree there are a lot of frauds out there so caution is advisable. I don’t advocate against science. We have a wonderful team of Vets which we love that cares for our 6 animal companions. However, I think its worth considering alternative healing in this case.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Jaky S.

[aimee]

Hi Spycar,

Guess you just didn’t look deep enough if you only found one controversial study reporting salivary amylase in the dog. But as I said really I find it immaterial. Dogs don’t retain food in their mouths for long periods of time there would be no selective pressure to maintain it. It just seems silly to me that people trot out the dogs don’t have salivary amylase as a line in the sand type of thing as some studies report dogs have it and not all omnivores do.

In regards to New World monkeys, who do not make salivary amylase, in the herbivore, omnivore, carnivore scheme they are classified as omnivores. It could be said that frugivore is a type of omnivore which is how wkipedia defines it “A frugivore /fruːdʒɪvɔːr/ is a fruit eater. It can be any type of herbivore or omnivore where fruit is a preferred food type.”

But if you want to separate out the different feeding patterns than this descriptions should suit you better. This taken from an overview of the group “Diets also vary widely; some species are nearly completely folivorous (eating a diet of leaves), some are frugivores, and some are omnivores” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK232186/

Overfeeding any macronutrient leads to obesity.

Unfortunately your understanding of the pathophysiology of pancreatitis is incorrect. You wrote “excessive amylase destroys tissue in the pancreas.” Amylase breaks down bonds in starch.. starch is only found in plants. Amylase can not destroy the pancreas because the pancreas is not made of starch.

Dogs don’t become deconditioned via diet. High fat diets support stamina because the cells are filled with fat, the fuel is readily available. If you are going for intensity (anaerobic)that is where carb comes in. Sled dogs, endurance, low intensity exercise do best with high fat diets. Sprinters.. do best with a diet that contains a fairly significant amount of carb.

The activities that most people do with their dogs don’t fall into either extreme, racing greyhound vs endurance sled dog, and a balance of carb and fat is probably best. Dogs are very flexible in their requirements.

P.S. Tooth crowns will be cleaner with chewing activity but oral health(periodontal disease) was found not to be different between dogs and cats eating a natural diet vs a commercial food

[pitlove]

Glucosamine as proven positive effects, but the problem is that it’s often looked at as a miracle supplement and given past the point where it will benefit the dog. Once damage has already begun or set in it will not reverse it, but it can aid in preventing further damage to the joint.

If the dog has been clearly diagnosed with HD, losing weight and surgery are going to be the best options.

[aimee]

Hi Spycar,

I thought we should look at some of the statements you made

You wrote: “Dogs were not shaped by evolution to consume carbohydrates. That’s a fact.”

Actually no… it is not a fact. this is why dogs are classified as omnivores. Now I know you’ll disagree with that fact. So let’s consult an entity which you trust .. the NRC. you wrote “…National Research Council of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences. The NRC is the world’s recognized leading authority on canine nutrition.” pg 6 Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats NRC ” Cats originate from a family comprised only of strict carnivores (Felidae), whereas dogs are omnivorous.”

Dogs are absolutely set up to consume carbohydrate. They have sweet receptors in their tongues. Hypercarnivores lack sweet receptors. There is no evolutionary pressure as hyper carnivores are not selecting and eating plant material. On the other hand sweet receptors are very functional and advantage to plant eaters. Sweet plant are generally safe to eat.

Next you wrote “Dogs have no capacity to produce salivary amylase (the enzyme necessary to digest starches/sugars/carbohydrates) all omnivores possess.”

Three parts to this statement “Dogs have no capacity to produce salivary amylase” But yet if you follow the literature salivary amylase is reported in the dog. And like humans the degree found is variable. So either the papers reporting it are wrong or the papers that report it doesn’t exist are wrong or maybe they are both right and depends on who you sample and how you sample. Really though it would be of little benefit as dogs don’t keep food in their mouths a long time before swallowing so it is rather immaterial if they have it or not

Part 2 “(the enzyme necessary to digest starches/sugars/carbohydrates).. Amylase is only important for starch digestion. Simple sugars are handled differently.

Part 3 “all omnivores possess. Where did you get this information from? Certainly not the scientific literature. Some omnivores have salivary amylase and some do not. Monkeys are omnivores. Old world monkeys have salivary amylase, New World Monkeys do not.

You wrote “Dogs, in a trait that is unevenly distributed in the population, have acquired a capacity to produce amylase in their pancreas.” Goodness you make it sound like dog’s can barely squeak out a bit of amylase. They can easily make gobs of amylase. My past dog lost ~ 90 % of her pancreas and yet had no problems with digesting a high starch diet.

You wrote “But producing pancreatic amylase is not the optimal or normal condition for dogs and –as mentioned–the capacity is highly variable.” Where do you get this “not optimal or normal” from? Please cite peer reviewed sources.

You wrote ” To take a marginal capacity (that is a dog’s ability to produce enough pancreatic amylase) a push it to the maximum by feeding dogs highly unnatural carbohydrate-rich cereal-based diets puts tremendous strain on that organ. It is an assault on the pancreas. It sets up a dog to be sick. Often the precipitating event that leads to pancreatitis is the consumption (by a sickened dog) of a high-fat meal that it is unaccustomed to eating. This happens because the pancreas becomes conditioned to spilling the “wrong” digestive enzymes to metabolize fat and in the confusion, those “wrong” enzymes instead attack the tissues of the pancreas causing damage…..etc

That simply is a fantasmical story conjured up by people with an agenda. Cite some peer reviewed papers that support this.. The pancreas has tremendous capacity for enzyme production and makes no sense to say that making lipase is a walk in the park but making amylase is “stressful” What would the mechanism be?

Enzymes become confused?? Really?? Enzymes are very specific in what they can do.

The rest of your “pancreas” story is more of the same..

Let’s revisit your recognized authority on canine nutrition the NRC .. again you wrote “The NRC is the world’s recognized leading authority on canine nutrition.” If carbohydrates are as awful for dog as you claim they are certainly that information would be published by the “world’s recognized leading authority on canine nutrition”. Yet it is no where to be found
in the 30 + odd pages on the digestibility and use of carbohydrates in the 2006 edition of Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats. There is no safe upper limit imposed by NRC on the incorporation of carbohydrate in canine diets ..but there is for fat

Maybe a clue can be found in looking at their recommended levels for fat. Does the NRC recommend high fat levels for dogs? Actually no they do not. The NRC recommended amount of fat for an adult dog at maintenance ( as opposed to reproduction or growth) is 13.8 grams/1000kcals. Assuming 8.5 kcals/gram that is 117 kcals from fat for every 1000 kcals fed or 11.7% fat calories, far below what you recommend.

Recommended amount of protein is 25 grams/1000 kcals, 3.5 X 25 =87.5grams/1000kcals or 8.7% protein calories. 11.7% recommended fat calories +8.7% protein calories =20.4% That leave a lot of room for a lot of carbohydrate : )

Dogs are very flexible.

As you recognize the NRC as “the world’s recognized leading authority on canine nutrition.” and I don’t disagree with you there, I’d advise you to pick up a copy of “Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats” and read it!

[Spy Car]

@aimee, they did not measure a high-fat ration vs a high-carb ration.

They measured two high carb rations (both of which lack the benefits of a high-protein/high-fat-diet) against each other and found a very marginal difference in weight loss. Differences likely attributable to the drastic differences in fiber in the two meals.

This study doesn’t resolve anything.

The reason that people like myself who’ve read the literature don’t endorse carbohydrates in the diet is due to the demonstrated consequences of high-carb diets negatively impacting aerobic capacity and cutting endurance in dogs, in addition to the obesity, bad skin, bad teeth, and stresses on GI tract and organ health.

There are no advantages to feeding carbs (aside from reducing costs of the feed). Only downsides to health.

I’m not going to take seriously a study that allows domestic dogs to consume as much raw food as they want as satiety test. LOL. There is enough of the primitive canine mind resident in dogs that I’d be shocked if a dog didn’t gorge when given the opportunity to eat raw meat, fat, organs, and bone. LOL.

But a raw-fed dog given calorically appropriate meals will not act food crazed. Ask me how I know?

Such dogs will be lean, vital, and hard-muscled vs the de-condition that results directly from feeding a high-carb cereal-based diet.

I’ve seen the differences with my own eyes. No comparison.

Thank you for your interest.

Bill

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Spy Car.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Spy Car.

[Spy Car]

@Ryan, your dog is likely sedentary as a direct result of being fed a high-carb ration.

That is to say, high carb diets directly reduce stamina and vitality. Such dogs will show very poor aerobic capacity when tested on treadmills and their VO2 Max scores are tested. The food actually de-conditions the dogs.

A study was done on such dogs. Overweight couch potato types who were fed high-carb diets. The VO2 max scores were terrible. The same dogs were shifted to a high-protein/high-fat diet. When re-tested after a time on this diet (with no other changes in lifestyle) the VO2 Max score soared to nearly the same levels as highly conditioned dogs, based on that dietary change alone.

The reason is that dogs have an amazingly efficient capacity to metabolize fat for sustained energy. It is the food they thrive on. In contrast, a dog fed a high-carb diet will have a brief period of energy and then a bust where it crashes and sleeps.

Sadly, I think too many dog owners like the effect of “tranquilizing” their dogs through bad diets, sorry to say. Those de-conditioning diets lead to ill health on a variety of levels.

Dogs with stamina and vitality have those things in direct relationship with their diets. The increased metabolic activity helps keep such dogs trim and well-muscled.

I’m very happy to hear about the good test results! Definitely work with the vet to ensure there is no contraindicating condition for moving to a higher fat diet (like emerging pancreatitis), but overall it is a much healthier option for dogs.

Your dog certainly can (and should) eat like a sled dog, it just requires much less food. You’d see a big increase in vitality and health.

When dogs are fed junk food all the consequences, from obesity, to bad lipid profiles, to bad skin, bad teeth, to stressed organs, follows.

proper nutrition is not for sled dogs and sporting dogs alone. The falsehood that is is is one of the most damaging untruths in canine nutrition (or should we say malnutrition) and is the reason so many dogs suffer needlessly from ill health.

Again, congrats on the good test results!

Bill

[aimee]

Spycar

All studies are flawed and this is no exception . There wasn’t a significant difference in amount of weight lost .. controlling calories is still key… but the authors did report a significant difference in % fat lost. ” the low fat diet group lost a significantly greater amount of total body fat than the high fat group.” This outcome is not consistent with your beliefs.

I don’t disagree that people and dogs have different requirements. It is just that people like to drag out the “Dog’s don’t require carbs” mantra as if that is somehow proof that carbohydrate shouldn’t be fed to dogs…Just pointing out the argument falls apart as people don’t need them either.

Maybe you’ll like this one better comparing ad lib access to either high fat or high carb diet full text may tell more but the high fat didn’t satiate the dogs to the point that they didn’t overeat and gain weight

Adult female dogs were fed ad libitum for 25 weeks a high-fat diet (51% of energy from fat) or a high-carbohydrate diet (59% of energy from carbohydrate). Dogs fed the high-fat diet gained more body weight than did dogs fed the high-carbohydrate diet. In both groups of dogs 78-80% of the increase in body weight was fat. The high-fat diet may have been utilized more efficiently for body fat gain than the high-carbohydrate diet; alternatively, it is possible to explain the increased body fat accumulation in dogs fed the high-fat diet on the basis of the small observed difference in energy intake. Dogs fed the high-fat diet consumed slightly more energy (13%) which resulted in the accumulation of more than twice the amount of fat accumulated in dogs fed the high-carbohydrate diet during the 25 week study.

Have you read Schauf’s studies on satiety comparing high fat to high carb? No difference found

Oh my…. you certainly haven’t seen the same high fat raw fed dogs as I have “A dog fed a balanced raw diet will have a dramatically better condition, less body fat and more muscle.” Do you have any references to support that statement?

I’m pretty carb neutral neither for or against. For weight loss I like to see a high percent of calories coming from protein and lower fat levels to allow for the dog to be able to eat a decent volume of food and for owner satiety and the carbs fall where they may.

In general i’m not a fan of high fat diets I see way too much canine obesity as owners don’t control portions, so I’m all for a less energy dense diets.

.

[Spy Car]

Ryan, I appreciate the spot you are in getting diametrically opposed advice.

In the years I’ve fed a PMR style raw diet I’ve come to be able to spot raw fed dogs when I see them. It has happened a good number of times when I met “strange dogs,” and usually getting the “how did you know…well, of course, you know” type responses.

And I’ve been on the other side, where strangers have approached me and known immediately that my dog is raw fed.

You can tell when a dog doesn’t eat carbs. Every part of their condition from the skin, fur, teeth, breath and especially lean muscle mass with low body fat is vastly better. They stand out markedly from the condition of kibble-fed dogs.

Second-best is feeding a kibbled ration that reduces carbs as much as possible.

Here is a link to the type of formula I’d like to see.

https://victorpetfood.com/product-items/grain-free-ultra-pro/?portfolioCats=133%2C134%2C165%2C135%2C153%2C159%2C160

Disclaimer, I’ve never fed this food (as I feed raw) and I have no relationship with Victor’s. It is just an example of a reasonably inexpensive alternative called Victor Ultra Pro. It is a 42% protein/22% fat formula that they claim is 81% animal protein and has 14% carbs. Hard to do better than that with a kibbled diet.

It is nutrient dense (high calorie) at 479kcal/cup, so you’d probably need to feed about 2/3 the portion of a less dense food (depending). Maybe less. That also figures in cost. The volume of poop would also be cut significantly. Not just nice for you, but much kinder for a dog (especially one with issues) not to move extraordinary amounts of waste through their GI tract.

Since the fat provides a sustained energy supply, you could feed once a day (at days end) and your dog could then go to sleep instead of carrying around a belly full of food (which is actually really hard on dogs, especially breeds like yours with his conditions).

The fat in this sort of food would keep him satisfied (w/o the need for obscene amounts of fiber) and would supply steady energy.

I’d expect triglycerides to improve on the small chance the problem is diet related.

I would definitely ask for a thyroid panel to be run at the vet. I’m a little surprised they have not done so already.

I’d resist the low-fat/high-fiber-diet. I think your dog would suffer from such diet. It is no wonder he doesn’t like it. No diet could be more unnatural for a canine to eat. I’ve seen too many dogs on this misguided sort of diet, they never fare well. It is about the worst diet one could feed a dog in terms of nutrition.

I’m sorry you are getting contradictory advice. But there is no question which way I’d go based on the nutritional needs of dogs described in the veterinary science.

Best,

Bill

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Spy Car.

[aimee]

Hi Spycar,

From your response it appears that you misinterpreted my intent. I didn’t say fats are non essential, I said to remove non essential fats. A certain amount of fat is essential to meet essential fatty acids and allow for fat soluble vitamin absorption. After meeting those needs the balance just serves as a calorie source and as such can be trimmed for weight loss.

Are you referring to Reynolds and Taylor’s work? If so seems you are misapplying it here.
As you reported much of the work on metabolism has been funded by pet food companies. A clue that the results of this work doesn’t support a recommendation of preferentially removing carbs and for weight loss is that the weight loss diets made by the companies doing the research are low fat.

Have you read Borne’s paper on weight loss? Keeping the percentage of calories from protein the same and altering the fat and carb content, the dogs on the higher carb, lower fat diet lost more weight and a greater percentage of body fat then those on the lower carb, higher fat diet.

[Susan]

Hi MX
if your dog health has gone done hill then change his diet, we are what we eat…
Does he like eating cooked or wet can foods & stop feeding him kibble all together…
Is it just kibble he doesn’t want to eat or is it all types of foods?

Have you taken him to vet to see why he doesnt want to eat?? normally stomach problems & food is causing pain, acid reflux, gas etc then they go off their food & can become very fussy eaters….
If he likes the ingredients in the Pro Plan Sport then look at Hills Science Diet or Royal Canine premium formula’s, they have similiar ingredients to Purina Pro Plan, the Corn & Corn gluten meal, their ingredients may be of better quality then Purina…But if he isnt pooing daily, he must be bloating up, not a good thing…
also the Hills & Royal Canine diet might be balanced better & higher in omega 3….
If the Omega 6 & is too high & the Omega 3 is toooo low this is when a dogs coat & skin will suffer….
One thing about vet diets they are balanced properly & very high in Omega 3 to help stomach, bowel, skin, coat, heart & brain health….
Have you tried the Hills I/d Digestive Care dry vet diet & wet can food?… or the Hills Science Diet Sensitive Stomach & Skin dry kibble?? buy from a pet shop & then you can return if he wont eat it, I know the Hills Sensitive Skin & Stomach is very palatable, also these foods are guaranted money back on palability…& it has ingredients he likes….

another food to look at is “Vetalogica” made in Australia & also sold USA when it first came out 2017….
Looked on their site & look at the Kangaroo formula, my boy who has IBD has become fussy with his food lately as he’s aging, so I bought a bag of Vetalogica Kangaroo I saw great reviews & he loves the “Vetalogia Kangaroo” formula, the kibbles aren’t dry like a normal kible, the Vetalogica kibbles are small & moist chewy type ball, I’ve never seen a kibble like this before, when Patch eats dry kibble all I can hear him do is crunching up the kibble but with these Vetalogica kibbles there’s no noise, he just chews them then swollows…
Send email to Vetalogica link below & ask do they have any samples especially of the Kangaroo formula & explain how you have a fussy dog & read on DFA that Vetalogica have a very palatable kibbles but you’d like to try sample first before you buy just incase….
https://www.vetalogica.com/

Also contact “Ziwi Peak” ask for samples…
he will definitely eat air dried Ziwi peak”” Venison formula. its healthier then any processed dry kibbles…
Air-dried recipes for dogs

[Spy Car]

My pleasure Ryan. I’d still palpate your dog as described above and decide how much of a fat layer you are willing to accept. It really isn’t about “weight” per se, but how much body fat a dog is carrying. Muscle “weight” (to a point) is beneficial in taking strain off joints.

Body fat, in contrast, is just a tax on the hips. I prefer my dogs run very lean while being athletically hard-muscled. That preference would only grow in importance were a dog showing signs of hip dysplasia. I’d want to trim body fat to the minimum while supporting muscle mass.

In my humble opinion, a 32/14 formula would get you just over the minimum threshold of protein but would be very deficient in fat. Such a formula would still have too many calories from carbs for my taste. I’d like to see a minimum of 20% fat.

If you are the researching type go to Google Scholar and search the veterinary literature for high-protein/high-fat vs high-carb studies. There have been many with sled dogs, hunting dogs, racing greyhounds, and even couch potato dogs. All the studies come to the same conclusions. Dogs burn fat with amazing efficiency and it is sustainable energy. In contrast, carbs load the muscles with blood glycogen initially, but then the energy stores are depleted. This is a boom-and-bust cycle.

Carb burning also cuts aerobic capacity.

Humans are different. We metabolize carbs pretty well as a source of long-term energy. We also tend to think fat will make us fat. It tends to be the opposite with dogs. Obviously one needs to take care with portion control with high-calorie rations. But feeding less food (by mass) with a higher caloric content (ie higher fat) will provide sustained energy. Such a formula makes it much easier to promote a strong lean body type.

A 32/14 formula would still have too many calories from carbohydrates IMO. Read the research if you’re interested.

The one caution I’d make if you do decide to go to a high-protein/high-fat diet is to transition slowly. It is always recommended to transition foods, but often that’s being “cautious.” Transitioning towards fat burning is different than just switching between different brands of high-carbohydrate kibble. Many changes have to happen from the release of different digestive enzymes by the pancreas to changes in the mitochondria at a cellular level.

So go slowly if you do decide to follow this advice. Then keep palpating the dog and checking the tuck with the aim of hitting that optimal balance of leanness and muscle. It is the kindest thing one can do with a dog developing hip pain or hip dysplasia, save surgical interventions for dogs who require it.

I hope this is helpful to you. Best with your dog.

Bill

[Spy Car]

@aimee, with due respect it isn’t an “internet myth” that dogs metabolize fats with an efficiency that contrasts markedly with the boom-and-bust energy release of carbohydrate metabolism.

This scientific fact has been demonstrated in dozens of scientific studies (nearly all funded by the pet food industry).

Fat isn’t “non-essential.” LOL. Fats are essential to canine nutrition, carbohydrates are not. This has been established by the National Research Council of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences. The NRC is the world’s recognized leading authority on canine nutrition.

Calories do need to be reduced, so it is best to eliminate non-essential calories from carbohydrates rather than cutting essential protein and fat.

Fat metabolism increases stamina. In one study funded by Iams, dogs ate a high-carb ration and who were de-conditioned “couch potato types) had their VO2 max (aerobic capacity) measured on a treadmill. As expected the results were very poor.

Then, the same dogs were put on a high-protein/high-fat diet. After a time (during which there was no alteration in their lifestyles) they were re-tested on the treadmills. The VO2 Max scores rocketed up nearly as high as those of elite highly-conditioned dogs.

Cutting non-essential empty calories, promoting weight loss, and increasing stamina is the smart path to weight reduction.

I doubt a surgeon would like to perform a hip replacement on a Lab carrying 140 lbs. Getting the weight down is critical.

Bill

[Spy Car]

[Content in violation of our commenting policy has been removed by the moderator]

Back to your problems. There are a number of improvements you could (should) make.

More towards an 80/10/10 ratio (meat/organs/bone). Try to make as much of the meat portion “whole” meat rather than grinds. Beef heart and pork leg (or shoulder) tend to be procurable cheap cuts.

Fat is to be embraced as a great source of energy (the ultimate source of energy for dogs). Because a canine digestive system needs to re-adapt to fat metabolism after a dog eats a carbohydrate-rich diet, it is wise to limit fat initially (during the transition). And to then work up to full-fat meals. Fat is very beneficial for dogs and not something to avoid or to restrict, except during a “transition.”

“Lean” meat is not a positive in the long term. Dogs thrive on fat metabolism. Fat is essential.

Don’t grind the meat. Let the dog chew and tear whole pieces. Much better for dental health.

The number of organs in your typical meal is too high. Stick with 5% (of the total) as liver and 5% “other” secreting organs (such as kidney, melts/spleen, sweetbreads, etc). Together that’s 10% organs as the total.

The biggest problem is with the bone. Forget giving beef or turkey bones and instead turn to bone-in chicken or similar soft edible bone. You want bone sources that will be well chewed and digested and that minimize the risk of tooth damage and/or obstructions.

Beef bones and turkey bones are poor choices.

Eating soft edible bone will keep stools ideally firm. There is no reason to feed pumpkin if the edible bone content is kept in the proper target range. Chewing soft-edible bone will also keep teeth sparkling white. Do not grind the bone. Feed soft-edible bone that the dog can chew.

The USDA website has bone percentages for common chicken pieces that can help you when figuring the 80/10/10 ratios.

Good luck.

Bill

• This reply was modified 7 years, 6 months ago by Mike Sagman. Reason: Text removed by moderator

[pitlove]

We started using the Victor Select Chicken Meal because it doesnt have ingredients Bentley can’t have. Is your Presa going to be neutered or is he already neutered? If not do you plan to keep him intact? Also, do you plan to work him? Or at least keep him active?

As far as rotating. I’m not a big fan of it. When I first got Bentley, I read all of the posts on here saying how important it was to feed a rotational diet and how their GI systems will be stronger and better if you feed multiple brands of food, so I did that. Did not work out. Bentleys allergies were out of control and I couldnt figure out what was causing the problem because he was eating a new food so frequently. Also now as a 4 year old dog, he has to be transitioned to a new food for 10 days or he gets sick, which is something that I was promised wouldn’t happen if he got used to eating different foods all the time.

If you still choose to do it, I would transition slowly to each new food and don’t change his food more than every 6 months or so.

We get Victor from a local feed store that is cheaper than online pricing for both Pro Plan and Victor. On a $/lb basis which is what I was going off it’s cheaper for me to feed Victor currently.

[Bayne K]

Shampoo is not a complete treatment by itself
We hate to break it to you, but even the best flea shampoo is not a complete treatment for fleas by itself.

That’s ’cause even the most effective flea shampoos won’t kill the entire population of fleas on your dog. Sure, the most potent shampoos can wipe out upwards of 90% of the infestation but don’t expect your dog to be totally clear of fleas, especially after the first wash. Getting rid of fleas requires a more holistic approach, which brings us to…

Your house matters a lot
Your dog may be the Ground Zero for the flea infestation but trust us when we say the infestation has probably spread a lot further than your dog’s fur. Fleas lay eggs on your dog but the eggs aren’t sticky so they tend to roll right off your dog’s fur and land all over your house – the carpet, the furniture, your dog’s bedding, your bed and so on.

If your dog is infested with fleas, there’s a very good chance that there are flea eggs and larvae lurking in and around your home. That means that you can rid your dog of the fleas that are currently living on him, but he’ll just pick up another batch as soon as he lies down on the carpet or his bed.

That’s why it is absolutely essential that you combine getting rid of fleas on your dog with getting rid of fleas in your home.

Shampoo smart
A good tip to make use of before you lather your dog up with flea shampoo: First, wet and apply the flea shampoo all the way around their neck. Lather that area immediately so the fleas can’t flee (pun intended) up from the body to the face.

Once you’ve secured the neck roadblock, go ahead and shampoo up the rest of your dog’s body.

Another helpful tip is to ease the entire process by bringing in some doggy treats to keep them busy while you lather and wait patiently for the fleas to die.

8 Best Effective Flea Shampoos for Small Dogs
https://goo.gl/2SBc5f

[Susan]

Hi Robert,
have you tried any puppy formula’s that have 1 single meat protein & Sweet potatoes or Potatoes, also adding boiled pumkin to his meals & see does he need a higher fiber diet?add 1 spoon of boiled pumkin to his next meal & see how he goes…
Pumkin can be boiled then frozen, it freezes ok same as sweet potato..
Potatoes & Sweet Potato seem to help dogs with gastro problems..

“Natural Balance” LID Potato & Duck Puppy formula, fiber is 4%
or there’s N/B Potato & Duck Adult & fiber is lower at -3%
https://www.chewy.com/natural-balance-lid-limited/dp/126515

or try the N/B LID Sweet Potato & Fish formula fiber is 5%, pea free, chickpea free..
You have to read all the Natural balances LID formula’s ingredients as they all vary

or try the “American Journey Limited ingredient Lamb & Sweet Potato formula, the fiber is 7%, the peas are 4th ingredient instead of being 2nd or 3rd ingredient like the other American Journey LTD formula’s are.
Here’s the American Journey LTD ALS Lamb & sweet Potato link.
https://www.chewy.com/american-journey-limited-ingredient/dp/148425

The Hills I/d prescription formula you’re feeding now is low in fiber 1.7% so maybe try a higher fiber diet……
also you need to find out WHY this happening? what does the vet say??
he’s young so he cant have IBD yet but if he continues with his diarrhea & sloppy poos he will end up with thickening of the bowel, when I got my boy he was a rescue & 4yrs old so I’d say someone just kept feeding him the cheap food that irritated his bowel & casued his IBD he has now… the Eukanuba Intestinal Low Residue dry vet diet formula was to only vet diet that ended up working for my boy, its low in fiber, my boy doesnt do well on high fiber diets….

Take back the Hills I/d Digestive Care vet diet that isnt helping him, vets diets are money back guaranteed & ask vet nurse can you try either the Royal Canine Gastrointestinal Puppy formula or Gastrointestinal Fiber response the fiber is 12%
Have you tried the Purina FortiFloria probiotic?? strengthen his gut?

Also reassure him when he is stressing out, tell him it’s OK, calm down down & stroke him & calmly speak, settle him down, also he may need to start gaining confidence, he may have low confidence, I rescued a dog she had very low confidents she had to go to puppy school & learn how to met other dogs etc…also never get cranky with him if he has an accident in house etc, whoever owned my boy must of belted him as he is so paranoid about pooing, it has taken me 4 yrs & Patch now FINALLY poos on grass BUT only if he knows he’s doing a firm poo, if he knows his poos is going to be very sloppy he wont poo on grass he holds it until he finds a bush or somewhere he can hide his poo.. I’ve reassured him & told him it’s OK Patch but he still starts to panic if he’s going to have diarrhea, as soon as he does do his sloppy poo or diarraha I praise him & tell him GOOD BOOOOY, you got it out, that after he has ran & looked & looked & panic stressed himself out, Im just relieved he fianally did his diarrhea lol
Here’s Royal Canine Digestive foods see which one is different to the Hills I/d formula he’s eating now, there’s also a Gastro Intestinal Kit

https://www.royalcanin.com/products/vet/digestive-support
keep me up dated what happened?

[Drew M]

Thanks Aimee for your reasonable opinions here!

After reading the article from Tufts, I don’t necessarily see that they are asserting that any particular ingredient caused the problem. From their use of the term “boutique” as well as mentioning home-prepared diets, it seems to me they’re more concerned about the general ability of many of these companies to ensure the right balance of nutrients is maintained in the food throughout processing.

Remember that when we were seeing taurine deficiency, it wasn’t about diets being too low in meat. The taurine was lost during processing; it didn’t stand up well to heat or storage. Many companies now add taurine in towards the end of processing to prevent this issue.

While there may be an issue with the ingredients themselves, I think it has more to do with the explosion of new pet food companies that people trust due to marketing claims, packaging, and the errant belief that you can assess the quality of a food from looking at the ingredient label. These companies may not have done enough research, hired the appropriate experts, or invested enough money into testing and quality control to ensure that the healthy-sounding ingredients they put in result in a nutritious diet in the bag.

[Susan]

Hi Ryan,
do you have the money to see a animal nutritionist? & get a balanced cooked diet, join a few Facebook groups “K-9Kitchen” run by Monica Segal, Monica does balanced diets for health problems….
there’s “K-9 Nutrition” group run by Lew Olson…
also “Judy Morgan DVM” look at her videos on her F/B page she has a few home made balanced easy to make meals…

When a dog is shaking its normally PAIN related, aso having diarrhea he probably was having intestinal pain could it have been Pancreas? did vet do blood test for Pancreatitis? also your dog might have IBD, my boy has IBD & he shakes when he has his stomach pain, I thought he was having Pancreatitis attacks cause he gets all the symptoms & he was shaking really bad, but blood test have always come back all good, no pancreatitis & the vet just says its his IBD, its stomach pain….
So I have excepted he doesnt have Pancreatitis & its his IBD causing him pain after he has eaten something it has caused him bad pain, he does lift one of his front paws & wants me to rub his stomach/pancres area when he gets this pain & shakes….
What was he eating when this was happening? was it a high fiber diet??
Dogs have a short Digestive Tract, so they do better eating low fiber or no fiber at all my vet told me, how are his poos since starting the Hills I/d Digestive Care formula, are his poos firm, cause the Hills I/d Digestive Care formula’s are lower in fiber ??
Try the Hills I/d low fat digestive care wet can food, I feed the Hills I/d Chicken,Vegetables & Rice wet can formula, it has less rice, No Fish Oil & has 14.9%-fat, I have to pick out all the boiled rice but Patch loves it for lunch & the cat gets all his rice & gravy she loves it.
Hills have improve their vet diets & brought out some really nice wet can stews…

Just ask your vet if you want to try a certain vet formula you think has OK ingredients & might agree with your boy.. I’d stick with the vet diets, they are balanced properly & made for certain health problems, some vet diets will help a few different health problems if you read “Key Benefits, look at
Hill’s® Prescription Diet® w/d® Canine Vegetable & Chicken Stew it’s for a few health problems, maybe talk with your vet about trying the Hills W/d formula??
https://www.hillspet.com/dog-food/pd-wd-canine-vegetable-and-chicken-stew-canned#accordion-content-054167331-2

Have you tried “Natural Balance” LTD Potato & Duck formula the fat is low-10% & fiber-3%, but you have to remember when the protein% & fat % is lower the Carbs are higher this is when weight gain happens if they are couch potatoes & dont excercise daily, The Natural Balance limited ingredient formula’s have all different ingredients so make sure you look at the ingredient list…
I would be feeding 3 small meals a day, same time every day, I’d feed 1-2 meals cooked meal or vet diet wet can food & the other meal the dry kibble… I feed 4-5 meals a day but my dog weighs 40lbs
https://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dog-formulas/special-category-limited-ingredient-diets

Here’s N/B Small Breed Potato & Duck, it has no probiotics
https://www.chewy.com/natural-balance-lid-limited/dp/36763

There’s Hills Prescription Weight Loss vet diet?? Ive heard dogs have very good results with this HIlls weight loss vet diet formula, Hills have brought out their
Hill’s® Prescription Diet® Metabolic Natural Canine
https://www.hillspet.com/dog-food/pd-metabolic-natural-canine-dry

There’s Hill’s™ Prescription Diet™ Metabolic + Mobility Canine formula its lower in carbs-36%, the fat is a bit higher-14.6% in fat, probably from from all the omega oils for joint health, https://www.hillspet.com.au/dog-food/pd-metabolic-canine-dry

*Metabolic + Mobility Canine has clinically proven nutrition to improve mobility in as little as 21 days AND reduce body weight by 13% in 60 days.

*Hill’s® Prescription Diet® Metabolic Canine Lamb Meal & Rice Formula
https://www.hillspet.com/dog-food/pd-metabolic-canine-lamb-meal-and-rice-formula-dry#accordion-content-054167331-2

There’s Hills Prescription Diet™ Metabolic Canine Vegetable & Beef Stew or
Hill’s™ Prescription Diet™ Metabolic + Mobility Canine Vegetable & Tuna Stew
ingredients look good & no cooking, no balancing cooked diet.
Here’s all Hills Weight Loss formula’s
https://www.hillspet.com/search?_BRAND=pd&_CONDITION=weightCondition&_SPECIES=dog

BUT 1 thing all of Hills Weight Loss formula’s are high in fiber, if your dog does OK with higher fiber & doesn’t get any pain or sloppy poos eating high fiber then try feeding the wet can foods, wet food is easier to digest then hard kibble….

I have found when a dog becomes picky with its food they normally have stomach problems & food has caused them pain so they become very fussy & when a certain food has caused them pain they will refuse to eat that food, so best to stop feeding whatever it is & read ingredients, read fiber %, the Kcals per cup??
Try & work out what is causing pain ….
Good-Luck

[Lori H]

Hi Marjorie,

My dog Buddy has been through a lot, much like your dog. He just turned 10 and during his life he has had surgery on his spleen, surgery for bladder stones, been diagnosed with Diabetes and I was told by my vet that he was suffering from liver failure and was preparing me for the fact that Buddy was going to die. The liver failure diagnosis was over a year ago and today, he is healthy, happy, looks amazing and has so much energy. I just had him into the vet for blood work Friday and his numbers are almost perfect! It has been am amazing turnaround so I know how you feel. I basically had to get him healthy myself. My vet did not support my decision to do what I did, but it does not matter, he is healthy and that is all that matters!

I now believe wholeheartedly that most vets know nothing about nutrition. They are told to carry a line of food in their offices by one of the large pharma/dog food companies because most of these companies go out and recruit at the vet universities across the United States when vets are in school and provide them with a kickback when the sell either Science Diet or Royal Canin in their clinics, up to 40%. Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE my vet, I just don’t believe he knows much of anything about nutrition. He has been great to me, my dog Buddy and my three cats. He is good at what he does, diagnose and perform much needed surgeries and procedures. He did Buddy’s bladder stone surgery which has complications.

I was at my wits end as well and thought that I was going to lose Buddy, but I was not willing to give up so I did a Google search and found an amazing person who brought Buddy back to the healthy dog he is.

Buddy is on a very special diet and he has made huge strides in the last 10+ months. He is a very healthy dog to what he was 6 months ago.

I worked with a man named Rick Scheyer. He has an amazing website http://www.doglivershunt.com He has helped many dogs with liver shunt, kidney disease, bladder stone problems and much, much more become healthy dogs again. I would suggest reaching out to him for a free consultation. It might be the answer you need.

If you choose to go with his program, it is not cheap, but I believe that over time, I will save money by not taking Buddy to the vet time and time again because I don’t know what is wrong and having a battery of tests run and racking up bills in the thousands, I have been there!

He was slowly weened off of his processed food Science Diet U/D and placed on a diet of fresh veggies and meat based on a very slow transition to follow with Rick’s help.

Buddy’s diet is a balance of ¾ veggies to ¼ meats. Dogs with liver issues do not need as much protein as you would expect. He gets lots of yellow veggies (squash, tomatoes, peppers, cucumber, celery, carrots, Brussel sprouts, snap peas, etc.) along with hemp oil and nori blended with goat yogurt into almost a smoothie consistency. I then add meats, liver is great as it helps to detoxify the liver (funny that you feed liver to a dog with liver issuesJ) and then he gets a variety of supplements. He receives three gut supplements in the morning (Acidophilus, Bifudus and a Spectrabiotic) along with an Enzyme and something called Whole Body. In the evenings he gets the Enzyme, Whole Body and a Mushroom supplement. The process to make his food is not that time consuming and if you are at your wits end like I was, I was ready to do anything.

He also gets to have as much goat yogurt as he wants with coconut oil. He also gets sweet potato chews and coconut slices.

He is also allowed to eat fruits, not during his morning and evening meals since they digest differently than veggies, but he has not yet warmed up to them yet. I don’t know if he ever will.

He is doing great! He has so much energy and the numbers don’t lie! I got a glucose meter and I am going to start checking his levels daily. I would really like to get him off the insulin if I can. I believe the medicine is what causes the blindness, not the actual diabetes, my vet believes otherwise.

My vet has not said much of anything. I explained I was taking him off the prescription food and putting him on this program and he never responded. When I took him in the last time for blood work, I think he was surprised Buddy was doing so well, but did not ask me further about what I was doing. He is a pretty straight and narrow vet and I don’t think he looks outside the box. If Buddy’s glucose numbers continue to decline, I will take him back and back off on the number of units he is given. Now it is just maintenance and keeping a spreadsheet and monitoring how he is doing.

I suggest reaching out. I think Rick saved Buddy’s life. I took him to the vet in October to have blood work done and he is perfectly healthy!

Let me know if I can be of anymore help.

Good luck on your search and reach out if you have further questions or concerns. It was hard to take the jump and trust someone other than my vet with my dogs nutritional health, but I am so glad that I did.

Lori

[Susan]

Hi Jessica,
has your pup had his stool tested for Giardia & been on a course of Metronidazole for 21 days?
I’ve looked up the dry dog foods you have tried & I’ve noticed they were pea heavy…
Have you tried a kibble that has NO PEAS & less fiber?

Try the “Natural Balance” LTD Potato & Duck formula, the fiber is 3%, no peas…. see how he does with no peas & LESS fiber? if this doesn’t work, take back & try Natural Balance Sweet Potato & Fish 5% fiber & no peas…
https://www.chewy.com/natural-balance-lid-limited/dp/104645

Here’s all the Natural Balance Limited ingredient formula’s, read ingredient list as they all vary..
https://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dog-formulas/special-category-limited-ingredient-diets

Start keeping a diary, write down all the formula’s you’ve tried, write how his poos were & how many poo’s he is doing a day, also write down the Protein % Fat % Fiber % & Kcals per cup in kibble…
I would stop adding boiled rice as rice can irritate the bowel, add boiled potato or boiled sweet potato if higher fiber is needed…if the pumkin didn’t really help then higher fiber may not be needed but it might depend what you added with the pumkin??
Have you tried feeding 1 cooked meat he hasnt eaten before with boiled potatoes for 1 week? NO treats…

If after trying the Natural Balance formula’s that are pea free & didnt help I would see your vet & try a vet diet, Vet Diets are specially formulated for Intestinal Stress, some vet diets are higher in soluble fiber or high in insoluble fiber & see does vet diet help.
You might have to try a few vet diets to find the right one then feed for a good 6-9months..
Then you look for a premium dog food & try again after he’s been doing well for 6-9months.
My boy ate a vet diet for 9 months so his bowel & stomach could heal, I knew he did well on his Eukanuba Intestinal Low Residue vet diet & when I tried a new dry kibble & it didn’t work, I could go back to the vet diet he did 2 firm poos a day on & work out my next step while he was doing firm poos….
Have you tried a dog probiotic?
Try Purina Pro Plan Fortifloria probiotic? while feeding pea fee kibble..
https://www.chewy.com/purina-pro-plan-veterinary-diets/dp/50029

How was he when he was eating the “Pure Vita Salmon & Peas” formula? this was high fiber 6%, very pea heavy & high in Kcals per cup, try & stay under 370Kcals per cup for kibble, the higher the Kcals the more dense the kibble, so harder to digest..

Keep me up-dated, what has happened & what you tried.

[anonymous]

Excerpt from an article written by a veterinarian that specializes in nutrition. She is affiliated with one of the best veterinary medical centers in the country.
Hope it helps someone, if not the OP, maybe someone else reading this.
https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/choosing-the-right-diet-for-your-pet/
Raw diets are another popular option on the market today. Studies have shown that 20-35% of raw poultry and 80% of raw food dog diets tested contained Salmonella. This poses a health risk for your pet, but also for humans. This is especially true for children or immunocompromised adults, whether exposed to the raw food directly, or the feces of the pet eating the raw food. Additionally, there is increased risk of other bacterial infections and parasitic diseases when feeding raw diets. And the bottom line is there is no reason to believe raw food is healthier than cooked food.
The numerous dietary choices for your pet can be daunting but if you pick an AAFCO approved food made by a manufacturer with a long track record, odds are good that you will find a suitable food for your pet. Most of the large pet food companies employ full time veterinary nutritionists and have very high quality control standards. That is not to say that a small company cannot produce nutritious and high quality food, but you should check out their website if it’s a company that is not familiar to you. Take the time to research, and ask your veterinarian if you have specific questions or concerns.
Please understand that this article is meant to provide basic dietary guidelines for healthy pets. If your pet has specific health issues, then your veterinarian may make specific food recommendations, which may include special prescription diets.

Also: http://skeptvet.com/Blog/category/nutrition/

Excellent science based articles (nothing is being sold at that site)

[Lori H]

Hi Jenny,

My dog Buddy has been through a lot, much like your dog. He just turned 10 and during his life he has had surgery on his spleen, surgery for bladder stones, been diagnosed with Diabetes and I was told by my vet that he was suffering from liver failure and was preparing me for the fact that Buddy was going to die. The liver failure diagnosis was over a year ago and today, he is healthy, happy, looks amazing and has so much energy. I just had him into the vet for blood work Friday and his numbers are almost perfect! It has been am amazing turnaround so I know how you feel. I basically had to get him healthy myself. My vet did not support my decision to do what I did, but it does not matter, he is healthy and that is all that matters!

I now believe wholeheartedly that most vets know nothing about nutrition. They are told to carry a line of food in their offices by one of the large pharma/dog food companies because most of these companies go out and recruit at the vet universities across the United States when vets are in school and provide them with a kickback when the sell either Science Diet or Royal Canin in their clinics, up to 40%. Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE my vet, I just don’t believe he knows much of anything about nutrition. He has been great to me, my dog Buddy and my three cats. He is good at what he does, diagnose and perform much needed surgeries and procedures. He did Buddy’s bladder stone surgery which has complications.

I was at my wits end as well and thought that I was going to lose Buddy, but I was not willing to give up so I did a Google search and found an amazing person who brought Buddy back to the healthy dog he is.

Buddy is on a very special diet and he has made huge strides in the last 10+ months. He is a very healthy dog to what he was 6 months ago.

I worked with a man named Rick Scheyer. He has an amazing website http://www.doglivershunt.com He has helped many dogs with liver shunt, kidney disease, bladder stone problems and much, much more become healthy dogs again. I would suggest reaching out to him for a free consultation. It might be the answer you need.

If you choose to go with his program, it is not cheap, but I believe that over time, I will save money by not taking Buddy to the vet time and time again because I don’t know what is wrong and having a battery of tests run and racking up bills in the thousands, I have been there!

He was slowly weened off of his processed food Science Diet U/D and placed on a diet of fresh veggies and meat based on a very slow transition to follow with Rick’s help.

Buddy’s diet is a balance of ¾ veggies to ¼ meats. Dogs with liver issues do not need as much protein as you would expect. He gets lots of yellow veggies (squash, tomatoes, peppers, cucumber, celery, carrots, Brussel sprouts, snap peas, etc.) along with hemp oil and nori blended with goat yogurt into almost a smoothie consistency. I then add meats, liver is great as it helps to detoxify the liver (funny that you feed liver to a dog with liver issuesJ) and then he gets a variety of supplements. He receives three gut supplements in the morning (Acidophilus, Bifudus and a Spectrabiotic) along with an Enzyme and something called Whole Body. In the evenings he gets the Enzyme, Whole Body and a Mushroom supplement. The process to make his food is not that time consuming and if you are at your wits end like I was, I was ready to do anything.

He also gets to have as much goat yogurt as he wants with coconut oil. He also gets sweet potato chews and coconut slices.

He is also allowed to eat fruits, not during his morning and evening meals since they digest differently than veggies, but he has not yet warmed up to them yet. I don’t know if he ever will.

He is doing great! He has so much energy and the numbers don’t lie! I got a glucose meter and I am going to start checking his levels daily. I would really like to get him off the insulin if I can. I believe the medicine is what causes the blindness, not the actual diabetes, my vet believes otherwise.

My vet has not said much of anything. I explained I was taking him off the prescription food and putting him on this program and he never responded. When I took him in the last time for blood work, I think he was surprised Buddy was doing so well, but did not ask me further about what I was doing. He is a pretty straight and narrow vet and I don’t think he looks outside the box. If Buddy’s glucose numbers continue to decline, I will take him back and back off on the number of units he is given. Now it is just maintenance and keeping a spreadsheet and monitoring how he is doing.

I suggest reaching out. I think Rick saved Buddy’s life. I took him to the vet in October to have blood work done and he is perfectly healthy!

Let me know if I can be of anymore help.

Good luck on your search and reach out if you have further questions or concerns. It was hard to take the jump and trust someone other than my vet with my dogs nutritional health, but I am so glad that I did.

Lori

[FIREMAN29]

I’m not looking for veterinary advice per say, as you state I can call them up at any point and get advice from them. I’m looking to make sure what and how much I’m feeding him jives. All the food is was ground up through a grinder and thoroughly mixed together. He hasn’t vomited at all, and is still defecating on a normal schedule with the exception of the one incident. He is still energetic, has a normal appetite, is not displaying any muscular weaknesses, bloating, and has been drinking water normally. I don’t suspect a bowl obstruction at all, I appreciate the concern but spending hundreds of dollars based on a complete lack of symptoms isn’t responsible either.

I was under the impression this forum was pro-raw diets, and a place where I could seek some conventional wisdom. The websites I’ve gone to are all regarded very highly and I’d like to think that I can sniff out BS when I smell it, or read it in this case. If information doesn’t jive especially when held up to other professional literature then I don’t bother with it.

I’ll seek advice elsewhere…

[FIREMAN29]

Hello,

This is for anyone who can help me. I have a 2.5yo +/-95# male AmStaff. He is a great dog but has been plagued with digestive issues since he was a pup. We went all the way up the kibble food chain ultimately having to get him the most natural gain free, chicken free, high protein, high priced food on the market. And he still showed some opposition to eating it and would drink tons of water a day. On June 1st my wife and I finally got tired of all the issues and switched him to a raw diet. I read several books and web sites trying to gain all the knowledge I could. We transitioned him over 8 days essentially switch and 1/8 of his food out each day. He was more excited to eat and seemed happier after even a few days. He was pooping less, I mean this in terms of shear volume, his poop was firm and smelled less, and he seemed to stop straining when he pooped.

A couple days ago he woke us up around 3am and we had to rush him outside as he had a photo finish with totally watery stool. He had also felt a bit warmer to the touch leading up to that. I’m confident that the meat was not contaminated (given that we ate form the same batch), and we made sure to clean everything thoroughly throughout the transition and after. I went back to the trusty internet and books and couldn’t find anything relating at least within the area of what he’s experiencing. It was a lot of “WebMD” type of reading where he could just be having an upset stomach and it will pass or I may be killing him slowly in which case rush him to the vet immediately.

He still seems happy, and energetic, and hasn’t gotten as warm as frequently as he has since those two days ago.

Food Break Down: 13oz 85/15 Ground Beef or Lean Ground Turkey
3 oz Meaty Bone (usually a stripped turkey leg portion or cow bone of some sort, he doesn’t like chewing them so I have to break them up which is a pain.)
4 oz Organ Meat (only 2 oz if all we have is liver)
2-3 oz additonally of fruits and veggies

One meal a week we will give him fish.

Just looking to see if we even doing this the right way. I thinking that from what I read we put in too much fat but I can’t be sure. If anyone could shed some light on this I would be very grateful. We want the best for our guy and we know we can get this right just need some guidance.

[Jody M]

Good Evening. I’m new to this website. I have a 4 year old Bahamian Potcake. He has canine hepatitis, one FHO hip and one full hip replacement. We have been thru a lot. The IM doctors want me to change his food from bison, brown rice and organic carrots to Royal Canine HP. They believe he may have IBS because of high ALT numbers thru out Finns life. His stools are soft and mushy. I know this is not normal but I just read the ingredients in Royal Canine HP and wow it sounds terrible. Finn is on the Balance IT supplement but this also upsets his stomach. He has to have low or no copper in a supplement because of his canine hepitaias. Does anyone out there have any suggestions how I could improve his diet to help my little buddy with the IBS without switching to a commercial dog food? And maybe a different vitamin supplement to complete his home cooked diet? Any help I would be much appreciated!!!!!

[anonymous]

It most likely has nothing to do with the food
A veterinary dermatologist would be your best bet, if that is not within your means, I would work very closely with your primary vet and do exactly as he says, I would disregard any advice that I read online/forums and such, tons of misinformation.
Per the search engine:
/forums/topic/dog-chewing-paws-raw-and-vet-prescribed-food-making-it-worse/#post-116655

/forums/topic/prescription-diet-and-pooping-too-much/#post-109822

PS: There is no cheap way out of this. Veterinary care is expensive nowadays. It is what it is.
From what you have described, it sounds like your dog may need the expertise of a specialist. It may be cost effective in the long run, rather than going back and forth to the regular vet (bandaid treatments) and trying all kinds of different foods with no significant results.

[STEFANIE]

Hi Karen. I read your post and got really excited! My dog, Maui, is a Border Collie and now had 11 months. When he was 6minths old, he had a mesenteric issue and had to undergo 3 surgeries!! He now has only 30% of his small intestines (a portion of the duodenum, almost nothing of the jejuno, and no iliac valve). I am STRUGGLING with everything, from nutrition problems, stools and vitamins deficit. He takes weekly shots of Magnesium and B vitamins, and intakes a lot of meds (s.a. loperamid, pepto bismol, metranizadol, and others). I would LOVE to hear from you, what did you do to get to 2/3 poops? Dry food? Protein? High in calories? Everything. All I can learn is special! I live in brazil and here we have little (almost no) studies of this issue. One of the vets even suggest putting him to sleep… which for me is DEFINETELY NOT AN OPTION!!!! If you want to, lets exchange info. My email is “[email protected]”. I would love to hear from you. Thank u so much. Best Regards, stef and Maui.

[James P]

a c
For years we fed Blue Buffalo Life Protection Formula Small Breed Chicken and Rice mixed with Blue Buffalo Freedom Grain Free Small Breed Chicken Recipe. We had a few upset stomachs here and there, but no pancreatitis, which too much fat in miniature schnauzers diet causes. Then we screwed up and started adding some off brand canned food I had found cheap, just because we wanted them to have a little something special. The canned food apparently had too much fat and gave one of my girls pancreatitis.

Once we got her cured I wanted to significantly drop the fat in their diet just so she would not have any repeats as I am afraid that once they have pancreatitis, they are prone to it. We now still feed the Blue Buffalo Life Protection Formula Small Breed Chicken and Rice, but now mix it with Wellness Core Grain Free Reduced Fat. The Wellness Core Reduced Fat is a well rated food and I would feel comfortable feeding it alone if I had to.

I have read that sometimes Grain Free foods can have too much protein and cause kidney problems. That is another reason why I feed a combination of a grain free food with a light grain/vegetable food. Our oldest schnauzers will turn 13 this year and we did their blood work last fall. Their levels were all great with no problems at all.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 6 months ago by James P.

[Fanette R]

Hello,

I’m posting this message because I’m getting pretty confused with everything that is going on with my dog.
He has been diagnosed with IBD for almost a year now. It has been a long and hard journey but in May I started to put him on Firstmate Fish Original Formula, which has help a lot his stomach.

The only problem is that since April (so before starting Firstmate), he had started to lick the floor literally all the time. I do not know what is happening but it is getting to a point where I cannot even let him walk in my apartment at all (he won’t lick outside though). Furby is a rescued dog and I’m used to him licking because of his anxiety, but it is nothing like what he is currently doing. When he has anxiety, or even nausea, he will lay down and lick his bed for example. Here it’s totally different, he won’t lick his bed, he will lick the floor like he is looking for food and is starving, and if he sees something on the floor that looks like food he will run at it.

The thing with Firstmate also is that from what I’m seeing, you don’t have to feed a lot of it. Which doesn’t help with my dog looking starving. He is crazy about the food and literally bite my fingers out of excitement if I have it, and once he has done eating he will look for more everywhere (I have to add that my dog has never been a crazy eater, more like the opposite. The behavior started 2 months ago, and he is almost 12 years old).

Here are the feeding guideline for a senior dog :
Weight Less Active Active
5-10 lb 1/8-1/4 cup 1/4-1/3 cup
(2.3-4.5 kg) (19-39 g) (39-52 g)

10-20 lb 1/4-1/2 cup 1/3-2/3 cup
(4.5-9 kg) (39-78 g) (52-103 g)

20-30 lb 1/2-3/4 cup 2/3-1 cup
(9-13.6 kg) (78-116 g) (103-155 g)

30-50 lb 3/4-1 ½ cups 1-1 ¾ cups
(13.6-23 kg) (155-271 g)

50-70 lb 1 ½-2 cups 1 ¾-2 ¼ cups
(23-32 kg) (233-310 g) (271-349 g)

etc…

And the calories levels : ME (calculated): 3125 kcal/kg | 484 kcal/cup

There is different things that makes me confused :
– I’m from France so I don’t really use cups, more grams, but if I use a cup to measure the kibbles, I have something like 180g of kibbles for one cup, where here they say that one cup is equal to 155g. Which could make quite a difference
– Calorie levels. They tell me that for my dog who weighs 7.5kg, I should give 85g daily. If I make the calculation, it will mean that Furby will get 265 kcal daily (if I use their cup measurement, if I use mine it will get 222kcal daily). Both of those numbers seem crazy low to me, when Furby started to have IBD and was on bland diet and then homecooked food, I did all the calculation and it showed that Furby should eat something like 381kcal daily (let me know if I’m wrong).

Right now I have increased his food and he is eating 140g of food daily but still seems starving. But I don’t even know if I’m doing good by increasing the food, I don’t want to take any risk with his IBD (I’m watching the calorie levels though to make sure he doesn’t get too much of it).
Plus, he doesn’t have officially kidney disease, but his last blood work showed that his urea levels is high so my vet said that I need to watch the phosphorous level in his food (which seems fine with this brand), and the protein shouldn’t be too high. Which is worrying me because they said on the Firtmate’s website that we don’t have to feed too much of this food because there is a lot of protein. Although on the guarantee analysis there is only 23% protein.

Guarantee Analysis
Crude Protein (min) 23%
Ash (max) 7%
Crude Fat (min) 10%
Calcium (min) 1%
Crude Fibre (max) 8%
Phosphorous (min) 0.75%
Moisture (max) 10%
Glucosamine (min) 100mg/kg
Magnesium (max) 0.1%
Calcium / Phosphorous ratio 1.3:1
ME (calculated): 3125 kcal/kg | 484 kcal/cup

And they also write :
73 % PROTEIN FROM Wild Pacific Ocean Fish Meal
27 % PROTEIN FROM Vegetables
0 % FROM Grains

Sorry for that very big message but I’m very confused and do not want to do something that will hurt my dog. I’m just really helpless at the moment his licking problem has been impossible to manage

Thank you so much for reading this, hopefully some of you could give me their thoughts 🙂
Have a great day,
Fanette

[crazy4cats]

Dear BaileysMom-
Please keep your pup on the prescription food. That poor thing. How stressful for all of you! There should not be anything in that food that would cause a reaction. It’s typically used for an elimination diet. Was that mentioned to you at all? Make sure he does not get anything else. No treats of any type. I know that can’t be easy. I’m not sure how long you have to wait before adding any other food.

If your dog keeps up with all the itching, it probably is environmental allergies. Luckily, I haven’t had to deal with allergies. But, I have read and heard a lot about them on this site. Please stick to the hydrolyzed diet to finally help figure out what his intolerances are. Good luck!

[BaileysMom86]

Hello, I have an 8 year old Lhasa/Shih Tzu mix (our best guess since he was a stray) named Bailey that we adopted him from the humane society 6 years ago. Bailey has licked his paws and everything else (the floor, the couch, us) since the day I adopted him and I have gone to many vets over the years, tried all different kinds of foods, etc. He has been on grain free food since a few weeks after I adopted him. We tried many brands over the years, but Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream was what we fed him for years because he would actually eat it (he’s very picky) and didn’t seem to bother him. He started to like it less and less and I had to coax him to eat. So at the beginning of August last year, I went to the pet store and asked if they would recommend a food that Bailey would eat and one that had very good nutrition to help my other dog shed a few pounds (she has no licking issues, she was just a little overweight that exercise wasn’t helping). He recommended Acana Singles lamb and apple. I transitioned him over and things went well at first, Bailey loved the food and I hadn’t seen him excited for meal time like that before. Then, at the end of August/beginning of September, things changed. One day, pretty much overnight, he went from licking his paws to biting them to the point they bled. He attacked all 4 paws and his “armpits” to the point they lost all fur and were a mess. We put an e-collar on him to prevent further damage and went to our vet. He was given medication for a staph infection, along with ketoconazole pills. His wounds healed, slowly, but he still attacked his paws every time we took the e-collar off. He would also contort and get to his back paw every now and then even with the e-collar. The vet pushed for hypoallergenic food and Apoquel. I told her I was going to switch him back to Taste of the Wild instead and she prescribed him a course of Temaril P to help with the itching, which did not help one single bit. I tried a lot of shampoos, olive oil in his food, Sulfodene ointment, seasonal allergy chews, basically anything I could find over the counter to help him so we could finally take the e-collar off. Nothing worked. I bathed him in Zymox shampoo one day and he broke out in red bumps down his back and extending to his belly and legs. They looked like hives and formed greenish/tan crusts. So I went to a different vet that was recommended by my mother in law. That vet recommended a Cytopoint shot so we had it done and it did absolutely nothing for Bailey’s itching. They also gave powder to put in between his toes to stop the itching and a shampoo to help his skin. Nothing helped and he was still having to live in the e-collar. So they thought it might be sarcoptic mange and gave him a Frontline injection, which did not help. Then they recommended Apoquel. I had a lot of concerns about that medication, but desperate for some relief for Bailey, I gave it to him. It helped a tiny bit, but not enough to take him off the e-collar and not enough to make me want to continue. Also, a small mass he had on his gums where he had lost a tooth swelled up to the point that I was very concerned so we stopped the Apoquel. Thankfully, the mass shrank back down to the size it was before the Apoquel and today it is gone completely. Then they recommended allergy testing and that was very far out of my budget given the pretty hefty bill I had already accumulated at that point.

So, frustrated and desperate to find answers, I did a lot of research online to see if anyone else had experienced the issues Bailey was facing and learned about systemic yeast infection and correlation to food…which I have also recently (in the past 2 days) read many feel are unrelated. But anyways, in April this year, I put him a home cooked diet of ground beef (73/27), hard boiled eggs including the shell, Nupro Gold supplement, and an omega 3/omega 6 oil blend made by Ark Naturals. The changes he went through while on that diet were interesting to say the least. After about a week in, his white/cream fur turned dark pink in many places-down his legs, around his face, on his rear. This happened pretty much overnight and I was excited, thinking this was the yeast coming out (as I had previously researched). The fur color went back to normal about a week later. Then, his fur started falling out on its own (we had him in an e-collar still). It happened in patches. He didn’t get any ear infections since I started the diet though. In fact, his ears were cleaner than they had ever been since I adopted him, so that was a positive sign I held on to despite the loss of fur being a shock. Then, about 4 weeks in, he started getting a thick, green discharge from his eyes and some of the fur around his eyes fell out (but not all of it) and the skin was red. And all of the fur on his chest and neck fell out and the skin was red, hot and inflamed. He smelled terribly of Fritos and my house smelled terrible. All of this was very, very concerning but I told myself this was still the yeast and bathed him regularly with a holistic anti bacterial neem/tea tree shampoo and tried to keep him comfortable. A week later, he was still experiencing the fur loss/red skin and he also got a bad ear infection and his ear was swollen worse than I had ever seen it. The fur on the underside of his ear came off easily in chunks when I tried to clean his ears and put drops in. Then, the following day a benign cyst he had on his tail from the day I adopted him burst. I expressed as much of the black gunk as I could but was concerned about the bleeding and risk of infection (and everything else that was going on) so I took him to the vet again the next day. I told them about my systemic yeast theory, everything I was doing with his diet and everything he had experienced. They were concerned that he was possibly allergic to the eggs or beef I was feeding him and told me those were highly allergic foods. I was shocked and didn’t want to give up after being on the diet for less than 6 weeks, but I was very concerned about the state he was in. They gave him a steroid shot, more medication for his ear infection, a new chlorhexadine based shampoo and mousse, and a prescription for Purina Pro Plan Hydrolyzed food. They also sent me home with prednisone pills to use if the steroid shot didn’t help. I transitioned him to the new food. His ear infection cleared up with the meds. The steroid shot gave him some relief from itching for about 2 weeks, but it progressed back to him being very itchy. I called the vet and started him on the prednisone pills, but they didn’t help at all. Now, 5 weeks after I started him on the prescription food, he is absolutely miserable. He is still in an e-collar. He has been able to get it off a few times and he has chewed his paws bloody in a matter of seconds. I know he has not been on the food the recommended amount of time to truly evaluate it, but he is so itchy, rubs himself on anything he can, licks his e-collar constantly and will try to chew his paws the second he is done eating.

I can find a lot of information on yeast online, but very little on the symptoms dogs face during yeast die-off, only that it will usually get worse before it gets better. I know every dog is different, but I can’t find any personal accounts/experiences which is confusing. Then, I also recently read that many people say diet can’t create or eliminate yeast issues and that was a myth perpetuated by a vet on the internet. I’m so confused with information overload and saddened that my dog has had to live almost a year in an e-collar and is so miserable. Does anyone have feedback on the symptoms I described to determine if it was an effect of yeast die-off, or an allergic reaction to beef or eggs like the vet thought? I have been doing research on the internet this week trying to decide what move to make next in regards to getting my dog some relief from his itchiness and I’m trying to decide between keeping him on the hydrolyzed food, switching him to another food, going back to homemade, or doing something else. Thank you and I’m sorry this is so long!

[Susan]

Hi Robert,
Hills Prescription Diet makes “Metabolic Canine Treats”.
Metabolic Canine Treats are a great complement for dogs being fed Hill’s™ Prescription Diet™ Metabolic Canine pet food, Hill’s™ Prescription Diet™ Metabolic Plus Mobility,
Hill’s™ Prescription Diet™ r/d™ Canine or Hill’s™ Prescription Diet™ w/d™ Canine.
https://www.hillspet.com.au/dog-food/pd-metabolic-canine-treats

Have you tried “Royal Canine”
Canine Gastrointestinal Fiber Response dry dog food?
https://www.royalcanin.com/products/royal-canin-veterinary-diet-canine-gastrointestinal-fiber-response-dry-dog-food/3959
ask vet can you try Royal Canine fiber response dry kibble to see if Timber stops doing his early morning poo 2-3am, poor thing he must wake up & need to poo..
When Patch was eating Sunday Pets food he started doing 5-6 poos a day & was pooing at 11pm, as soon as I stopped feeding him Sunday Pets food his 11pm poo at night stopped & he stopped doing 5-6 poos a day…

When Patch suffers with his Helicobacter he feels real hungry & wants food all day, as soon as he starts taking his triple therapy meds, Metronidazole, Amoxicillin & Losec twice a day every 12 hours for 21 days, his wanting food all day & feeling really hungry all stops…
I’d start feeding 3 meals a day, 2 cups for breakfast, 1 cup for lunch-1pm & 2 cups for dinner, space out his feeding times to keep him feeling fuller longer.. 7am, 1pm & 6pm…

Hills, Royal Canine & Purina Pro Plan all have similair vet diets,
have a look at Purina Pro Plan EN Gastroenteric Fiber Balance™ Canine vet Formula
it’s similiar to Hills W/d vet diet but it has a bit less fiber 10%, maybe if the fiber % is lowered a little, it might reduce amount of poo’s & work a bit better then the Hills W/d formula?..
https://www.proplanveterinarydiets.ca/products-consumer/en-gastroenteric-fiber-balance-canine-formula/
Purina Pro Plan Vet diet has ” Lite Snackers”® Canine Treats, Hypoallergenic, high in fiber treats https://www.proplanveterinarydiets.ca/products-consumer/lite-snackers-canine-treats/
Here’s another Purina Pro Plan Vet diet that is high fiber 16%
https://www.proplanveterinarydiets.ca/products-consumer/om-overweight-management-canine-formulas/
You might need to try a few different brand vet diets till you find the right one that agree’s with Timber, all vet diets are money back guaranteed & if you have a vet who has patience & willing to order in new brand vet diets or give you a presciption so you can order online…
Also you can ring Hills, Royal Canine or Purina & ask can you speak with one of their Vet Nutritionist & they can advice which vet diet would be best to feed or do what I do, I go thru all the vet diets & read Fat % Fiber % ingredients etc & try & work out which vet diet might work best then ask my vet….

[Cavalierluvr]

3 weeks ago I adopted an Austrailian Cattle Dog. He is thought to be around 5-6 months old. The rescue had him on Nature’s Recipe Grain-Free puppy food. I mentioned to the rescue that I would like to switch brands and was thinking of going with Fromm Puppy Gold or Fromm Heartland Puppy. She said Fromm can be too rich and said Natures Recipe Grain Free was a good food. His stools are firm. What concerns me is that this food contains the controversial Vitamin K….menadione sodium bisulfite complex. There are so many all life stage foods on the market, but I’d prefer staying with a Puppy formula. And I’m torn between grain vs. grain free. So many say grain is bad for dogs. But are dogs meant to eat lentils, potatoes, peas, chickpeas? No. And now I’ve read that there is concern with grain free diets causing Dilated cardiomyopathy or DCM. Any suggestions on some good Puppy formulas would be appreciated.

[James P]

I have been an Amazon customer since 1998. So far this year I have bought over 500 different items from them. You really have to be careful of the reviews there. Quite often competitors give items 1 star reviews, while shills for the item may give it 5 stars. Plus, a large percentage of our population are idiots with no common sense. If a review really leads you to believe one way or the other, look at the reviewers other reviews. That can really tell you a lot.

Here is what I did last time for our 4 miniature schnauzers when I needed to switch foods. I gleaned what information I could from several internet sites such as this one by careful analysis, creating a list of foods that fit what I wanted. I then researched each one by individual ingredient giving them a yes or no rating. After that I again went online and started reading reviews by the general public on many different sites with a very critical eye toward disregarding the flakes.

You are not going to find the perfect food. Some people think they have, but as long as imperfect people are involved in its production, it will never be perfect. Do the best you can, take some time and use your common sense. You will end up with a food that your babies can live with.

[Christine P]

Hi all,

I will be getting a Labradoodle puppy in August and am looking for suggestions for a hiqh quality kibble or canned food, or can I use both? Originally, I was planning to go with Acana or Oriijen kibble but now I’m reading there have been some issues with their food since Champion moved to Kentucky Eventually, I will transition to a more raw diet (or make my own). Heard Ziwi is a good canned food but expensive. Thank you.

[Ella r]

YeS, Thank you guys i read full guide here at Can Dog eat Carrots, & from the last 15 days i feed to my dog regularly it. Thanks

[Susan]

Hi Nicole,
maybe start with Freeze Dried Raw & see how he goes, but make sure its a limited ingredient freeze dried or Air Dried diet there’s “Ziwi Peak” look at the Venison or Rabbit formula, https://www.ziwipets.com/ the Ziwi Peak wet raw can food is really good but it’s expensive but its balanced & all ready to go, email Ziwi Peak & ask for samples..
at first slowly introduce the freeze dried or Air Dried with his kibble he’s doing OK on, add new freeze dried slowley over 2 week period & see how he goes, or I went thru a Animal Nutritionist with my boy who has IBD, you can still feed the kibble he’s eating now, just feed the kibble for breakfast then feed the raw meal for Dinner or the other way around but when I first started Patch on a raw diet he was hungry cause he was use to eating a dry kibble that was high in carbs that kept him feeling full longer, I had to feed him a small snack at lunch time to get him thru to Dinner…

Go on facebook & search for “The Australian Raw Feding Community” facebook group, or buy “Lew Olson” book her f/b group is called “K-9 Nutrition” or Dr Karen Becker has a book, both books are very easy to follow, I just went to the library & borrowed the books to make sure they were OK before I bought them…Dr Karen Becker is bringing out her latest new book it should be out by now, go on her f/b page “Karen Becker” & ask her is her lastest raw feeding book out yet?
or you can start feeding the Pre-Made raw but I was advise NOT to feed Patch any Pre-made raw dog diets you buy from pet shops, home made raw is more fresh & you know what your adding into your boy raw diet..
I had to start Patch on 1 meat protein-Kangaroo mince feed at breakfast with blended veggie/fruit mix & Chicken Breast cut up for dinner with blended green veggetables, broccolli, celery, parsley & 1 fruit-apple peeled. remove all seeds, cut up then put in a blender add 1-2 spoons of the veggies /fruit mix to 1 cup of meat, then I froze the remaining fruit & veggie mix in ice cube trays covered in cling wrap then you take out 1 cube = 1 spoon when you need it & I also added the Digestavite Plus powder to balance the diet cause Patches diet had no bone or organ meats yet cause of Patches IBD, we started him on an elimination raw diet in the beginning, this is why it might be best to see a Holistic vet or Animal Nutritionist to formulate a raw diet for a growing puppy who has IBS…
Here’s the Nutritionist I went thru she does Skpe, emails or rings you, here’s her “Maintenance raw diet” she gave me for Patch & I had to pick 2 meats, 2-3 vegatbles & 1-2 fruits to begin with, but we would email back & forth… http://www.naturalanimalsolutions.com.au/education.php

[anonymous]

Excerpt from an article written by a veterinarian that specializes in nutrition. She is affiliated with one of the best veterinary medical centers in the country.
Hope it helps someone, if not the OP, maybe someone else reading this.

https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/choosing-the-right-diet-for-your-pet/

Raw diets are another popular option on the market today. Studies have shown that 20-35% of raw poultry and 80% of raw food dog diets tested contained Salmonella. This poses a health risk for your pet, but also for humans. This is especially true for children or immunocompromised adults, whether exposed to the raw food directly, or the feces of the pet eating the raw food. Additionally, there is increased risk of other bacterial infections and parasitic diseases when feeding raw diets. And the bottom line is there is no reason to believe raw food is healthier than cooked food.
The numerous dietary choices for your pet can be daunting but if you pick an AAFCO approved food made by a manufacturer with a long track record, odds are good that you will find a suitable food for your pet. Most of the large pet food companies employ full time veterinary nutritionists and have very high quality control standards. That is not to say that a small company cannot produce nutritious and high quality food, but you should check out their website if it’s a company that is not familiar to you. Take the time to research, and ask your veterinarian if you have specific questions or concerns.
Please understand that this article is meant to provide basic dietary guidelines for healthy pets. If your pet has specific health issues, then your veterinarian may make specific food recommendations, which may include special prescription diets.

[Susan]

Hi Tiffany,
I think you’re doing a pretty good job, you’ve had a little set back with Aria, if Aria didn’t catch the rabbit Aria would probably be doing really well now, just start all over again..
You may of panic a little bit but after reading all the bad stuff on the net who wouldn’t panic, I would of paniced aswell actually years ago when Patch was pooing blood diarrhea I paniced & rushed him & took some of his bloody poo to the vets & waited out the front till they opened up at 8am, the vet nurses & vet were so calm & I was a mess, stressing out, I had no sleep, I’ve never owned a dog that pooed just blood all night…. he blood wasn’t from a raw diet, afterward I went thru a animal Nutritionist to put him on a raw diet.
But you learn from these things & if there’s a next time you’ll do things different….
Patch has IBD his vet gives me repeat scripts of “Metronidazole” that I keep in the cupboard & when something happens like Aria vomiting undigested smelly brown vomit or blood vomit or bloody poos & I see Patch isnt getting better after 2 days then I start him on the Metronidazole for 7-14 days..
When Aria spewed the brown stuff it would have been digested food in its liquid form, then she couldn’t poo cause she probably didnt have nothing much to poo out after being fasted for 24 hrs then she spewed a meal, her bowel would have been emtpy & she was unwell with Gastritis she probably felt like she had to poo but didnt have to poo..
What did she eat the day she spewed the digested food??
Just keep an eye on Aria being a GSD she may have a sensitive stomach/bowel then her brother Ronan has….She might be more sensitive to certain ingredients?
I just re read your post maybe don’t feed Aria any beef if she gets bad gas after eating beef. also beef livers are more rich, I’d start a Elimination diet with Aria, I’d feed Ronan the same raw diet as you were feeding before the Rabbit incident & with Aria I’d start feeing just 1 meat probably Chicken, Turkey & Duck & feed from the same animal so the same organ meat & same muscle meat, so feed from the same chicken or Turkey or Duck if you can, you’ll have to buy the whole chicken or whole Turkey try & find a chicken, duck & turkey farms close by, best to feed free range raw, but its more expensive.
also maybe when she spewed she ate too much fat??
My vet tells me, sometimes its good when a dogs spews, its not always a bad Susan lol the Gastro vet said its very easy for a dog to bring things back up, they’re not like us when we vomit, it just stresses me out a bit, I stress when Patch spews, well I dont stress as much now after the Gastro vet has explained it all to me & told me not to worry, its better out then in, also dogs have a short digestive tract & can easily vomit when they have too,
Chicken, turkey & pork these meat are suppose to be easier to digest & the bone is supoose to be softest from the Chicken but the pork has more fat but you can control the fat amount you feed if your making your own raw diet also home made raw is HEAPS better then the Pre made raw you buy already made, when I bought Turkey BARF pre-made for my cat she wouldn’t touch it, then I took the Turkey back & they gave me samples of the Rabbit & Kangaroo Barf & they all smelt the same as the Turkey BARF, you’d think being different meats they would all smell different, well they should of all smelt different, the cat wouldn’t touch any of them, then I went to supermarket & bought fresh human grade chicken & kangaroo mince & it smelt like fresh meat should smell, totally different to the pre-made pet BARF raw formula’s, So your better off making your own raw meals, it probably heaps fresher.. find a butcher that sells cheaper off cuts..

Just make sure when they’re both eating raw meaty bones, you watch them & make sure they’re both crunching & munching their raw meaty bones & if you see a certain cut of meaty bone that they’re not really chewing properly & just swollowing, then don’t use that cut of meaty bone again… Invest in a meat cleaver & a good chopping block & go nuts & start hacking at all the meaty bones lol…
If you join a few facebook groups you might find someone thats selling or giving away their smaller grinder/mincer they might have bought a bigger grinder/mincer?
Dont worry about them eating bones, dogs teeth are made specially for eating raw meaty bones, animals etc, a really good Raw Canine group is called “The Australian raw feeding Community” f/b group…

Canine Dental Anatomy

Incisors — Dog
There are four types of teeth in small animals: incisor, canine, premolar, and molar. Nature designed each to serve a special function. Incisors are named first, second and third; or central, intermediate, and lateral, based on their location in the mouth. There should be six incisors in the maxilla (upper jaw) and six in the mandible (lower jaw). Incisor teeth are used for shearing and grooming.

Normally, the
lower canine
should intersect
the upper lateral
incisor and upper
canine
There are two large canine teeth located in the mandible and two in the maxilla. The canines are designed to grasp and tear with great pressure. Premolar teeth have sharp edges used for shearing. In the dog, there are four premolar teeth on either side of the upper and lower jaws. Dogs have four molars in the upper jaw and six in the lower. Molars have a flat surface used for grinding.
So you dont need a grinder your dogs teeth are one lol