Hi Everyone…I joined this forum hoping for support and advice. My beautiful 4yr old Schnoodle suffered an episode of torsion on October 13th. In less than an hour she went from an active happy, digging in the dirt pup to great pain, laboured breathing and dehydration. 7 hours later she had emergency surgery and 70% of her small bowel was removed (70% of jejunem, her ileum & cecum). She was in ICU for 6 days and discharged from hospital 2 days later. She has recovered amazingly well. However her weight has dropped from 18lbs to just under 14lbs and we are almost at 3 months post surgery. 2 days ago our vet gave her a BCS of 3/9 about a month post-op her BCS was 5/9 and from that we learned that she was a bit overweight before she got sick. We are being followed by a clinical nutritionist at the Veterinary College and she has been prescribed a hydrolysed protein diet (Hills z/d both dog and cat). After a month of the z/d exclusively (which she didn’t like) we are now allowed to top up her frequent feeds with a bit of grated cheese or ground beef (5-6gms per feed)Her energy level is good and she is still quite playful but we are really getting worried about the weight loss. she continues to have diarrhea 6-8x a day. She gets a packet of fortiflora everyday.
I would love to connect with anyone who has had a similar experience. I worry about her weight and intake all the time. I would truly appreciate any and all comments and stories from other dog owners who have been through this…especially from those whose dogs have survived and are now doing well…I would really like to connect with someone like that…I need the inspirationpitloveMember
Firstly let me just say I’m so happy your pup survived that episode. A lot do not.
It sounds like you have an amazing resource on hand being that you’re working with a nutritionist at one of the vet schools. The small frequent meals are likely going to have to continue for life and ensuring that she is on a diet that is highly digestible is key. If the Z/D is still causing diarrhea, have you told your vet and the nutritionist about this? She may need to go to another Hills formula or perhaps even to another brand of therapeutic food.
Royal Canin might be one to ask about. They have a lot of formulas in the vet diet lines and are very strict about ingredient quality and manufacturing.
Hi pitlove, thank you for replying. We started with Royal Canin gastrointestinal moderate energy but the nutritionist thought the hydrolysed protein in the z/d would be better for absorption. Occasionally Abby has produced a little soft poop but we don’t know why or when it is going to happen. the 6-8x a day has been the norm for us for the last 6 weeks or so, before that it was 10-12! We did bloodwork on Friday and next week after we get the results we are going to make an appointment with the nutritionist to really take a look at what she needs and if this diet is right for her. I have read a lot of posts on line about a homemade diet being the best thing for short gut and the nutritionist said that could be an option but she wanted to start with the ready made stuff first. unfortunately for us, Abby is a fussy little thing and for a while she wasn’t eating enough food to maintain her weight but things are better now that we can add the ground beef or cheese. Anyway, thank you for your suggestions, It’s tough worrying about this all the time and not being able to talk to many people about it. I really appreciate you replying 🙂
Are you still seeing a vet that is a vet specialist? diarrhea 6-8 times a day isn’t good, it’s better then 12 times a day but her poo’s need firming up, this is why she is losing weight, did the clinical nutritionist say to eat the cheese? cheese causes diarrhea with my IBD Staffy, you need to work out does Abby need a diet high in Soluble fiber or higher in In-Solubale fiber, my boy has IBD, Skin Allergies & Food Sensititives his vet wanted to treat his IBD first & to make sure we firm up his poos, he doesnt do well with all the Vet diets for Intestinal health or the Hyrdolyzed vet diets especially if the vet diets are higher in In-Soluble fiber & I’m pretty sure the Hills Z/d is higher in In-Solube fiber & lower in Soluble fiber??, I just looked in my desk & I can’t find the In-soluble & Soluble percentages for the Hills Z/d, I/d Digestive Care & the I/d Retsore formula’s, aaarrrhh, I’ve just moved….
I know Hills have changed their Z/d dry formula a few times, Patch was getting diarrhea from the old Z/d dry formula, the new Z/d dry formula gave him bad acid reflux & sloppy poo’s so I stopped feeding it, we have tried every single vet diet in the end a Premium dry kibble firmed up his poo’s ask your vet can you try the Hills D/D Potato & Duck formula instead, Potato firms poos up normally, in Australia we get the Hills D/D Potato & Venison formula, it’s 370 Kcals per cup so she should start to gain some weight if her poo’s start to firm up, you can email Hills & tick the box for a vet Nutritionist to ring you back & if you get a nice lady she will help you & give you the Soluble & Insoluble fiber percentages to a few vet diet formula’s this way you’ll know if your girl starts to do well on a certain vet diet if it’s higher or lower in Soluble fiber or try the Royal Canine Select Protein Potato & Rabbit dry formula or the Royal Canine Select wet can formula’s..
You know in your heart if you feel Abby is not getting anywhere with the clinical nutritionist find another one or find a good vet that specializes in Intestinal health problems that’s what I had to do with my boy I went thru 4 vets before I found the 2 vets that work at the same practice that finally helped Patch they both prefer home cooking but in the begining wet canned & home cooked went thru Patch, now 5 yrs later he does good on home cooked meals also are you sure the Probiotic is helping?? instead of the cheese try adding 1 spoon of boiled pumkin to her next meals for 2 days & see if the boiled pumkin helps firm her poo’s, Pumkin is a soluble fiber same as sweet potato, it can be frozen in those ice cube trays & take out as you need 1 spoon of cooked boiled pumkin …
Good Luck I really hope the angels find you a good Nutrititionist to help Abby firm up her poo’s & Abby gets back to normal very soon….
Go onto Facebook & join Monica Segal group called “K-9 Kitchen’ Monica is a Nutritionist you might met someone else that has a dog with similar problem or there’s Lew Olson group called “K-9 Nutrition” Lews friend in the group (I”ve forgotten her name) knows alot about Intestinal problems & might be able to help with foods to start feeding that are very healthy & start firming Abby’s poo’s…TyrionthebiscuitMember
I don’t have much to add but I second K9 Nutrition. They are all very helpful and one of the more laid back nutrition groups!
Hi Susan, thank you for all the info. I have read some of your other posts about Patch and I’m really glad to read that he is doing well.
The diarrhea is definitely a major problem but we were told even before the surgery that Abby may have loose poops for the rest of her life (if she lives). Loosing 70% of her small bowel really speeds up gastric emptying….trying to slow it down is definitely a major priority and all the suggests you have made r/t fibre content and other kibbles gives me lots of questions to ask when we see the nutritionist. I find it interesting that you asked if the probiotic was working. I have been giving Abby fortiflora religiously everyday but today I thought I might try a day without to see how she does and so far she has eaten 7 small meals (~20-30gm of z/d mixed with 5gm cooked ground beef) and only pooped 3 times. It could be a coincidence but is it possible that the fortiflora could be contributing to her frequent BMs? I would be curious to know. As for the cheese. We only give her 5-6gms grated on her food. just to entice her to eat, and not every meal because she seems to prefer the beef so I don’t think that is contributing to the diarrhea, but its a good thing to keep in mind. Her bloodwork results have come back and although most of her results are normal there are a few that are high or low, but who knows, maybe those numbers are good for a dog who has been through such a traumatic surgery. I will look up K-9 Kitchen and K-9 Nutrition. Both sound like great resources. Thank you so much for all your suggestions Cheers for now,
Hello Everyone, It has been almost 2 weeks since I have posted about Abby and I thought I would give an update. According to the clinical nutritionist at the Veterinary College here in Ontario, Abby is doing quite well. She and her supervisor were not really concerned with any of the slight abnormalities in Abby’s bloodwork, with the exception of a low B!2, something we all knew would be an issue for Abby as she lost her ileum (the section of the small bowel that absorbs B!2). Therefore we have restarted B12 injections every 2 weeks.
Abby’s appetite has picked up now that we are almost exclusively feeding her small meals of Hills z/d kibble (both canine and feline mixed ~75%/25%). we “flavour” the meals with ~ 5-8gm of a slurry of boiled lean ground beef (I boil 1 lb of ground beef in ~300-400 mL of water, after it is cooked and cooled in the fridge I remove as much fat as I can and then pulverize the whole pot of water and beef into a rather thick beefy broth. I freeze it in small containers and then measure it out per meal) We heat the slurry in the microwave for 5 seconds so it is warmed and thinned and then we coat the measured dry kibble with it before setting it down for her to eat. She loves it. I suppose it sounds like a lot of work but really boiling a pound of ground beef, separating the fat, blending it then freezing it is really pretty easy.
We have decreased the daily Fortiflora doses as I was concerned that it could be contributing to Abby’s diarrhea. The envelope that contains the daily dose is the same amount for a Great Dane as it is for Abby who is only about 6.35kg (14lbs) and I thought she might be getting too much. However there was really no difference in her number of poops after I stopped the Fortiflora so now I give her a bit on her morning feed every 2nd day or so just to give her a little healthy bacteria top up and that seems to be fine. Her weight loss has levelled off and we have seen a slight increase in the last 2 weeks.
I spoke to our clinical nutrition resident about soluble vs insoluble fibre (Thank you Susan) and since we had such bad luck with soluble fibre (metmucil) her suggestion was to just try what we can from natural sources (veg, fruit etc) but to always maintain a rule of 90% daily nutritional content from her kibble, and no more than 10% nutritional content from other things (ground beef and/or fruit veg etc). Now that she is getting the ground beef we no longer give Abby any canned z/d. We also discussed other hydrolysed dog foods and alternative protein source dog foods (again, thank you both pitlove & Susan) and the CN is going to modify Abby’s original diet report with alternate options, all under the supervision of the assistant professor of clinical nutrition at the OVC. We are pretty lucky to live so close to such a high level of care for our pup.
Abby continues to poop 4-6x a day, thickest in the morning, most watery at night. Our CN reminded us that because Abby has lost so much of her small bowel she will always have diarrhea and our goals should be to see a decrease in frequency, to maybe only 3x a day and hopefully one day poops that are consistently only a score of 5 on the Purina fecal scoring system chart. Currently Abby’s poops are usually a score of 6-7 with an occasional 5. http://www.epi4dogs.com/poopchart.htm
Just this past week we passed the 3month anniversary of Abby’s torsion and surgery. This date was a real milestone for me as everything I read online re:veterinary studies of dogs that had bowel resections and a loss of a large section of small bowel, would show that a dog that survived the first 3 months generally lasted until they were no longer being followed by the authors (i.e. a couple of years). Because Abby lost 70% of her small bowel, she is on the borderline of good vs bad outcomes. So three cheers for our wee Abby…she has survived the acute recovery period and now we are transitioning to chronic mode.
I have to admit this has all become quite an obsession for me this last 3 months but I am feeling pretty good right now. Abby is a happy active little dog, her quality of life is very good. Other good news is that the CN at the OVC also reviewed Abby’s BCS and gave her a 4/9 instead of a 3/9 as our family vet’s practice partner did. (I shouldn’t have even asked for it that day, she was a vet that didn’t know Abby and a BCS can be quite subjective) The CN told us that family vets often underestimate Body Conditioning Scores because they are so used to seeing dogs that are overweight. So a 4/9 is pretty perfect and I’ll take it!
The next steps are the modified diet plan, and Abby will be discussed at internal medicine rounds this week at the OVC re: would she benefit from another round of metronidazole and/or would she benefit from a low daily dose of an antidiarrheal. I know those seem like simple actions that any vet might do, but the opportunity to discuss it with a number of professors and vets at a university teaching hospital may have far reaching results…who knows, Abby may be the subject of a journal article some day.
Once again, thank you pitlove, Susan, & Tyrionthebiscuit for reading and offering your supportive comments and knowledge. It has been very helpful for me. I realize this is a rather long winded post but I am hopeful that if ever anyone else has to go through a similar experience with their dog, they will find this post and know that there are people out there willing to share their knowledge and experiences to help that family have a positive outcome. As our CN said, a lot of this is trial and error because many dogs don’t survive post surgery or their owners can’t afford the surgery so there isn’t a huge amount of information out there. I will continue to post updates about Abby’s progress, thanks all….Cheers for now
Abby is one very lucky girl having a mum like you, I remember the first 2 yrs I had Patch I was doing the same buying Kangaroo mince & lean Turkey mince 99% fat free adding 1 whisked egg & making 1/2 cup size Kangaroo rissole balls & Turkey ball rissole then baking in oven on a foiled lined baking tray & the fat & water all come out & the meat seems to keep its flavour better then boiling the mince, then i’d boil sweet potato, potato, pumkin & freeze all the pieces in section as they thaw very quickly when you take them out of freezer only take about 20mins to thaw then I’d mash thru the Turkey or Kangaroo balls, I was in the kitchen 1/2 a day some days trying new recipes for Patch to see if it would firm up his poo’s……
How come you’re using beef mince & not turkey mince? Turkey mince is more leaner & easier to digest…I’ve been scrambling Patch an egg for lunch he seems to do really well on scrambled egg & loves it, Patch goes into Hospital tomorrow morning he went down hill real quickly after Xmas, I want biopsies done of the Eosphagus & Stomach to see if he has cancer??? something is wrong…
There’s also vet diet “Purina Pro Plan HA” it is the same formula as the Hills Z/d dry old formula before Hills changed the Z/d formula last November 2017, you could always give the Purina Pro Plan HA a try the fat is lower then teh Hills Z/d or the Royal Canine has a few Hydrolyzed formula’s later on if Abby gets sick of eating the Z/d & there’s an Canadian vet foods called “Rayne” if you want to have a look….Ranye has a low fat Kangaroo dry & wet formula’s & a Rabbit dry & wet formula’s & Crocodilla which is Alligator but it has Chickpeas as first ingredient, it’s Chickpeas alligator then field peas, the peas may cause bad wind pain…..
Hi Susan, Turkey sounds like a great idea. We buy our beef from a farm so I just grabbed what I had in my freezer based on what we saw at the Vet hospital.
I’m sorry to hear that Patch isn’t doing so well. Our dogs are like our children, I knew that was the case before Abby got sick but I had no idea how emotional I would get and how much I realized I loved her until we almost lost her. I imagine you have similar feelings. You have obviously put so much thought and time and money too, into keeping Patch as healthy as he can be. I hope that Patch isn’t in any pain and you find out what is wrong soon. I also hope that it will be a fixable problem.
Thanks for the suggestions about the Purina foods. I think that is one of the foods our CN is going to write up in the report. Royal Canin is always in the back of peoples minds here because the head office is about 10 minutes from the Vet school and they give scholarships etc to the UofG for the OVC. I’ve heard a lot of talk about kangaroo and alligator but haven’t seen any of those foods yet. In Australia I imagine, they are plentiful….or at least the kangaroo is, my husband worked on a farm in Toowoomba when he was a student and he says the famers used to go out and shoot the Kangaroos just to keep the population down. So I’d say the dogs of Australia get a real treat….We don’t really have anything running around Southern Ontario like that….Hmmm, raccoon maybe haha.
Your meatballs sound wonderful. Does Patch eat kibble as well as the food you prepare? what is the ratio? The extras we give to Abby are such a small amount of her overall diet it’s a little hard to add more than one ingredient per feed. To maximize absorption we have to give her small feeds throughout the day instead of one or two big feeds. She eats 5-6x a day. She does love veg and veg has virtually no calories so she can have squash and broccoli and red peppers (her favourite) as much as we wish to give her. I give them to her partially cooked now, to cut down on the gassy aftereffects.
Well I better finish and get ready for work. I will keep my fingers crossed for Patch. All the best….KarenInkedMarieMember
Sorry to hear about Patch.
Hello everyone! My name is Stefanie, and I am from Brazil, so for starters, let me apologize for my not-so-good English, but I’ll try my best! My dog, Maui, a 7th month old Border Collie, just went through three surgeries (yeah! amazing survivor!). On Jan 4th, 2018, he ate a HDMI cable and had it removed by undergoing a 3 and 1/2 hour surgery which ended up removing about 9cm of his jejunum. One week later, his internal stitches from the anastomosis had problems, and he ended up with about 800ml of fecal liquid on his stomach cava. With this severe peritonitis diagnosed and confirmed with an ultra, he had his 2nd surgery, which then removed about 10cm of the jejunum again. Less than 72hrs later, the same problems occurred with the internal stitches, and Maui had to undergo his third surgery. On the last surgery, the vets are not sure of the length they removed from his jejunum, and unfortunately, they had to remove his iliac valve. His duodenume and colom are still 100% intact! It has now been 20 days since his last surgery, and he has been home for the last 8 days (blessed!). As predicted by all vets, we are really struggling to help him out since he now has all the signs of SBS. He started all this nightmare with 15.200kgs, and now weights only 10.700kgs. He is currently on a restricted diet, which includes, only 600ml of water a day, served in small portions of 100ml, and now eats 4x times a day the following meal: 2 spoons of mashed potatoes (home cooked) + 2 spoons of a high-caloric meal (canned), which includes turkey, carrots, beet, olive oil, pumpkin and some other ingredients. 3x times a day, I give 1/2 smashed banana with a scoop of whey protein (for dogs, in Brazil named Caninus Protein). With all his 4 main meals, I give him a teaspoon of Pancreatin (mix and wait 15minutes before serving). And 2x a day I give him Omega 3 (1000ml), L-Glutamine (1 teasp), Taurina, a probiotic (in Brazil named Lactofos), and a medicine to help him hold his stool (in Brazil named Duspatalin).
By now I havent really seen any major improvement with his diarrhea, and my MAIN concern is that it is obvious that he cant really digest the food. We can observe the pieces of his meal on his stools. On the poop chart (http://www.epi4dogs.com/poopchart.htm) he has never scored more than 6! and often has an 7.. He varies from 5-9 diarrheas a day.
We have a nutritionist and exchange facts and info on a daily basis! Next week I am considering changing his meals for dry nibble ROYAL CANIN VETERINARY GASTRO INTESTIONAL FIBRE RESPONSE, since the canned options are very wet and it is clear that whenever he drinks water his stools get worst, since the canned meals include 70-80% of water, I am really considering giving him PROCESSED dry nibble and only adding some small spoons of water (so I can control the amount of water taken).
I would really appreciate ANY ideas, suggestions, feedbacks, information on this subject! I am reading a lot about SBS, and am totally committed on helping him as much as I can. Maui is an amazing dog and deserves to live for as long as he wants – and it seems he wants to outlive us all! He is a little FIGHTER and I love him with all my heart.
For now, I would really like to know how all of you guys managed to help them better DIGEST the food, and also what helped with the stool problems. Did you guys give them Metamucil (Psyllium)? If so, how much? Any feedbacks about the ROYAL CANIN VETERINARY GASTRO INTESTIONAL FIBRE RESPONSE? What seemed to work best as a probiotic?
Thank you all for the help and attention! Its very warm to know that there are so many people out there willing to help.
Best Regards, Stef and MauianonymousMember
Your dog has been through a lot. He has a serious condition. If I were you I would continue to work closely with your vet and go exactly by his recommendations (food, medication, treatment).
Obviously your dog needs the expertise of a veterinary healthcare professional, maybe a specialist, but NOT the internet.
I caution you. I have seen a lot of misinformation on forums, really dangerous stuff.
Best of luck
Hi Stefanie, I agree with anon101. Maui’s body has been through a lot of change and suffering and it would be very good if you could keep close contact with the veterinary nutritionist. Is the surgeon still available to you for Maui’s post operative care? I have found with Abby that we have to be very careful about making changes because her body reacts quickly when she is fed something new, and the reaction is usually more diarrhea, which we all want to avoid. Also, Maui isn’t even a month since all the surgeries started. He is still acutely recovering from surgery and should be getting lots of rest. For the first few weeks after Abby’s surgery we were hand feeding her very small amounts 6-8 times a day. also, I would watch to make sure she was getting enough water because she was losing so much through her bowels. The first food Abby was eating was Royal Canin gastrointestinal both canine and feline both wet and dry(dogs can eat cat food but cats can’t eat dog food- the cat food has a higher protein content) and we also tried to give her more of the dry food because we hoped it would absorb some of the water in her bowels. When we started to see the clinical nutritionist at the veterinary college here in Ontario (Canada). Abby was switched to a hydrolysed protein diet. Originally we gave her Hills z/d – both dog and cat but she didn’t like it very much. Now she is eating Purina H.A. and she likes it a lot. But she has to eat almost 3 times the amount recommended for a dog her size. We carefully measure and record every meal she eats and we never give her more than 40gms per meal. She still eats 6-8 times a day. You will have to monitor Maui’s weight as well, it sounds like he lost a lot. To answer your questions we did not have a lot of luck with the metamucil Abby continued to poop like crazy with it. Also, we were giving Abby Fortiflora but the internal medicine service at the vet college has suggested we try Visbiome instead. I have just ordered it so I can’t tell you how good it is yet but it looks like it is very well regulated and produced. Again, I would check with your vet about switching foods and go slow if you do. Maui may never have formed stool. Abby rarely does. It’s a big job you have ahead of you but hopefully Maui will recover enough to enjoy his life. That is our priority with Abby. I hope this is helpful. I am happy to share our experiences with you but I think the best thing you can do is follow your vet nutritionist’s instructions, monitor ins and outs carefully and keep records of them for the nutritionist, and enjoy every minute you have with Maui….Cheers for now, Karen
I just thought I would drop a quick line to say that Abby is doing great. It was a long and worrisome Winter and Spring but she has survived and I think it is safe to finally say she has even thrived. She is gaining weight and pooping 2-3x a day now. We have kept records on every intervention we tried, when, how much and her response. I am planning to write it all up in a document so that it can be shared with others who may be going through a similar experience. We know that many Vets recommend euthanasia for dogs when they develop torsion as the survival rate is very low and we hope our story will help to advance research.
To recap: Abby suffered mesenteric torsion on October 13th 2017. approx. 7 hrs later she had surgery at the Ontario Veterinary College where they removed 70% of her small bowel. She remained in ICU x 6 days and was discharged home to us. We have been followed and advised by a Vet at the OVC who is doing her Masters in clinical nutrition. She has been through several different feeds, meds, injections and even a fecal transplant. it’s quite a story and I am really excited about writing this up….not sure about the best way to do it, but I sure do want to ensure that others can benefit from our experience. Any suggestions? A Blog? A story? An article? I would love some advise. Has anyone else formally written of their experiences?
That’s excellent Abby is doing heaps better now…. yes I loved to know what food Abby ended up doing the best on, is she eating a wet or dry vet diet now or is she eating a cooked low/high fiber meals or does she eat dry for 1 meal & cooked or wet can food for other meals?, what medications helped, if she is on meds….
I would start a whole NEW post called “Mesenteric Torsion In Dogs” & “Short Bowel Syndrome in Dogs” so if someone googles Mesenteric Torsion In Dogs or Short Bowel Syndrome in Dogs, your new post/story comes up on DFA…you can also put the link from this post at the end of your new post so people can read thru all the posts & the same put a post on this page with the link to your new post so people can go over to the new aswell..
I don’t know how your going to write 1 & 1/2 years from start to finish without it becoming to long. I tend to write long post but I feel I need to explain everything & it’s so hard explaining from start to finish cause so much happens along the way, I suppose people can post a post asking you questions about stuff you may have forgotten to write or didnt think was as important to write….
Another poster might have some better idea’s on how to set it all out…
Now Abby is a survivor & that’s what people need to hear & reliese they mighten need to put their sick dog to sleep, it will take time & heaps of love & their dog will be well again..
Hi Karen. I read your post and got really excited! My dog, Maui, is a Border Collie and now had 11 months. When he was 6minths old, he had a mesenteric issue and had to undergo 3 surgeries!! He now has only 30% of his small intestines (a portion of the duodenum, almost nothing of the jejuno, and no iliac valve). I am STRUGGLING with everything, from nutrition problems, stools and vitamins deficit. He takes weekly shots of Magnesium and B vitamins, and intakes a lot of meds (s.a. loperamid, pepto bismol, metranizadol, and others). I would LOVE to hear from you, what did you do to get to 2/3 poops? Dry food? Protein? High in calories? Everything. All I can learn is special! I live in brazil and here we have little (almost no) studies of this issue. One of the vets even suggest putting him to sleep… which for me is DEFINETELY NOT AN OPTION!!!! If you want to, lets exchange info. My email is “[email protected]”. I would love to hear from you. Thank u so much. Best Regards, stef and Maui.
Oh my gosh Stefanie, I’m so glad to hear that Maui is still alive! Our stories sound very similar. I will email youCara PMember
Hi Karen and Stephanie
I just joined this forum so I could join in on the conversation. Firstly I hope that both Abby and Maui are still doing well. I have a 3 1/2 year post mesenteric torsion greatdane. His name is Luca, he is now 5 years old and weighs about 102 lbs.
Over the course of these 3 1/2 years we have tried many foods ( commercial, homemade, dry, canned, raw etc) medicines, and treatments and he has been followed by veterinarian nutritionists, holistic veterinarians, veterinary school veterinarians etc.
I am not going to lie having a short bowel dog is challenging some days more than others
But your dog can live a fairly normal life and I would do anything for him. If either of you are interested in swapping stories of what you have tried, what works, what doesn’t etc
Email me. I don’t think there are many of us ( short bowel dog post mesenteric torsion)owners out there but I do believe we can learn from each other and this will help us give our special dog the best quality of life.Laurence TMember
I also just joined this forum to discuss about SBS.
My dog got an 80% small intestines resection due to a huge mass that was englobing all of his small intestines. They thought it was cancer but it wasn’t. Still to this day they haven’t found out what it was but he is still followed every two months by the Vetenarity University in internal medecine.
He got operated in February 2018 and he is still here today with us. Fingers crossed that the masses do not come back as they did even after the surgery was done. A cocktail of antibiotics made them regress and “dissapear” for now. But they are lurking in my dreams and I am always worried.
Anyhow, when Logan got really sick they told us:
– He has only a few days to survive
– That he was going to die of an agressive form of cancer
– That he wouldn’t survive the surgery
– They think he either suffered from Bartonella (tick born disease) or an auto immune disease so got treated for both. He is still on the auto-immune disease treatment at the moment.
He went down from 72 pounds to 59 pounds after surgery and is now back at 75 pounds.
Here is what he is taking to help his SBS:
– 2 immodiums (one in the morning one at night)
– 1 1/2 of metronidazole in the morning and 1 1/2 at night
– 1/2 of teva gabapantin in the morning and 1/2 at night (mild painkiller as we noticed that when he was eating he was getting crampy)
– 1 fortiflora in the morning mixed with his food.
– 1 B12 shot, once every two weeks.
– 1/4 prednisone every morning (treatment for auto-immune disease).
We used to cook for him, the the diarrhea was so back he wouldnt digest the food. We used to found pieces of food undigested in the food. The vets told us it is better he eats dry pebbles as the proteins are already “cut” to be absorbed faster into the system. Which ended up being true for us. As soon as we switched him to pebbles he started gaining weight and his diarrhea improved.
He is eating Royal Canin High Energy Gastro. And so far it is the best we found for him, ismall meals 3 to 4 times a day.
He does still have a lot of diarrhea. It’s been 10 months since his surgery and it’s still watery. Sometimes a little like mustard, but he poops about 6 times a day and we get up once or twice per night for him to go poop.
I really want to help him with his pooping. Sometimes I wonder if we did the right decision and I am wondering if his diarrhea is making him suffer? I need to find a way to harden his stools. I don’t want to lose complete hope. At least so that he poops less a day than that.
He drinks a lot of water being on predinose (cortizoid) so that shouldnt help too much but if I don’t give him water he sleeps with his head in his bowl.
Did someone found a trick or a way to tamper down the pooping / diarrhea ?
Thank you so much.
join this f/b group,
“Dogs with Inflammatory Bowel Disease IBD – Raw Feeding & Holistic Support”
I know the group says Raw Feeding but there’s alot of people in group that feed dry kibble, vet diet kibble/wet tin, cooked meals, raw meals etc, look out for one of the Moderators named Anu, I wont post last name, she is a wealth of information, really good help, it’s worth copying & posting your post then posting in the IBD Holistic f/b group once you’ve joined ask how to firm poo up naturally…
I know potatoes & sweet potato firms up poos for dogs who have IBD & EPI, have you tried a different dry kibble?? one thats lower in carbs & higher protein that has sweet potatoes or potato??…
also have you tried Slippery Elm Paste given 15-20min before he eats? you buy slippery elm powder, add 1/2 teaspoon in a cup slowly add boiling water & stir till you have made slurry & you can pulled up 5ml into a syringe when it has cooled down, I cover cup with cling wrap & put the rest slippery Elm slurry in fridge for the next time you need to use again, then you boil the jug & add a little boiled water & stir till it’s a slurry again & pulls up into the syringe..then I throw away if any Slippery Elm paste is left & start again..
Have you tried reducing the Metronidazole to 1 tablet morning & 1 tablet with Dinner, then get him down to 1 Metronidazole at Dinner time?? ask vet?
also have you tried Tylan Powder?
It is a macrolide antibiotic. Tylosin is used in veterinary medicine to treat bacterial infections…
Tylan can replace Metronidazole as Tylan is similiar to Metronidazole (Flagyl)…
Tylan powder will firm up poo within 1 day but cause its a lose powder you MUST put in empty capsules & put down his throat then he eats his dinner, tylan tastes awful & some dogs end up refusing to eat meal if you sprinkle Tylan powder on their food, so best to put in capsule & put back of tongue, push down their throat then quickly feed, its worth a try you might be able to stop giving immodiums twice a day & the Metronidazole, baby steps.
They have proven a dog taking a high Tylan dose can take 1/2 the Tylan dose once a day & poos stayed the same….
ask your vet about Tylan Powder, years ago you could by online or over the counter in the US, I dont know about now, I think I read you can still buy without script if its for chickens I think you might still be able to buy online best to ask in the IBD f/b group people might know more or if you join the EPI Dog group on f/b
alot of the EPI dogs take Tylan powder & are doing firm poos now, dont be scared to reduce dose if you do start your dog it wont make any differance..
I tried 1/8th teaspoon Tylan powder in capsule given once a day with Breakfast, within 1 day Patches poos were firm..
Go on U-tube it shows how to make the shoe box to hold up the empty open capsules so you can put 1/8th or whatever the Tylan dose is for your size dog into 1/2 empty capsule….
I hope you find something to partley firm up poos, you mighten it might be the ways poos stay with SBS, I know whats it like when Patch does a mountain of diarrhea out the front of someones yard on his walks, I know when he’s going to do sloppy diarrhea, he wont go poo & he holds it in & walks & walks till he can find a bush to hid his sloppy poos, the silly old bugger, he must of gotten into trouble when he was younger, he’s a rescue I got age 4yrs old, I’ve tried telling him it’s OK Patch, your a good boy & we can go home now after walking & walking to find a good bushto poo under & hide it, he will NOT do sloppy/diarrhea poo in his own yard, one vet said he’s a very private dog, lol…
Gosh Hi Everyone! I didn’t get an alert from the last 3 posts so I had no idea that Cara and Laurence had joined and Susan had updated.
Firstly Abby is doing great. She was up to 17lbs at Christmas, so we have had to cut back on her daily food intake….what a glorious thing for me to write! She is now down to 16.4lbs and I think we will keep her at this weight over the Winter (it’s pretty cold outside now and she can use the extra fat). We will probably limit her food intake a little more in the Spring as her ideal weight is actually 15.2lbs.
Abby remains on our home made prescription diet. She gets 75mg metronidazole daily and 1ml B12 injection weekly. Our nutritionist Vet did a presentation about her at the OVC and asked me to write up how I prepared her meals, the cost and the time. If anyone is interested I can post that here. I have learned a lot about making a home made diet, I think it helps to be a little obsessive compulsive….keeping to the recipe exactly and weighing each item after cooking and draining is very important.
Because Abby lost 70% of her small bowel she can’t absorb fats. She only gets 1tsp of canola oil daily, and whatever fat is left over after meticulously draining the lean ground beef (I obsess about draining it very thoroughly because the prescription recipe called for extra lean ground beef but it’s expensive to buy 2kg of extra lean ground beef at a time and extra lean generally doesn’t come in large packaged amounts).
Another very important addition to Abby’s diet is a vitamin/mineral supplement. Abby was prescribed Balance IT by the OVC Vet. We have to order it on line from the U.S. which is a bit of an annoyance but The OCV trusts that the product is properly monitored in production and the ingredients are of good quality. I believe the standards for medications for animals are not as stringent as they are for humans so the OVC is careful about what they choose when prescribing an OTC product. (over the counter)
Laurence, the trick for us in decreasing poops and firming them up is the homemade diet. When Abby was on the Purina H/A her poop was still pretty watery. Thickest in the morning and then like water by evening. Looking back at my notes from a year ago Abby was pooping 4-10x a day. Currently she poops 2-3x day. Her first poop of the day looks like a normal dog poop and we are now back to carrying poop bags with us when we go for walks. in the evening her poop is the loosest and I’d say it is the consistency of pudding. (On the fecal score chart she is a 3 in the morning and a 5-6 in the evening) What a change in a year!
I think there are 3 main factors in Abby’s improvement: 1) time – time to heal 2) home made prescription diet & 3) a regular daily dose of metronidazole – I hate that we have to rely on an antibiotic to keep her gut flora under control but that is our reality. Currently she is on half the daily dose she was originally prescribed but if I try to wean her down to a lower dose she starts pooping more so I guess this is where we will stay for now.
Finally I want to say a couple of words about probiotics. Abby was started on Fortiflora almost immediately after her surgery. We didn’t know if it was helping but we hoped it was. Later our nutritionist Vet suggested we try Visbiome. Visbiome is a high quality probiotic for humans with ulcerative colitis and I.B.S. You order it on line and it is delivered in a styrofoam cooler with a cold pack inside (obviously great care is taken to keep the bacterium alive). It was kept in the fridge and we gave it to Abby everyday. However, when I was researching fecal transplants in humans (yes, Abby had a fecal transplant – it didn’t really help) I came across a journal article that stated in humans:
“SBS patients, with colon in continuity, harbor a specific fecal microbiota that we called “lactobiota” because it is enriched in the Lactobacillus/Leuconostoc group and depleted in anaerobic micro-organisms (especially Clostridium and Bacteroides )”
The ingredient list of Visbiome states that over half the bacillus species in the probiotic supplement were in the Lactobacillus group! So essentially we were giving Abby more of the same bacteria that she already had an overabundance of!
Fortiflora has a lot of filler ingredients but only the Enterococcus faecium is the active one. Which is a strain of gram + streptococcus (which is naturally occurring in the gut of animals and humans)
Needless to say, we stopped the probiotics and she hasn’t had any since. I’m not saying this is the case for every person and every dog, but I believe the probiotic was not helpful for Abby. As an addendum I would just say that dogs and people, being both mammals there isn’t a heck of a lot of difference between them when it comes to the GI system.
Okay, I’ve written a lot here so I better stop. If anyone wants my recipe notes or even the link to the journal article about lactobacillus let me know
Cheers for now….KarenMarisol MMember
Hi, I’m new to this forum, Milo my 11 year old labrador just had surgery tonight, they had to remove 75% of his colon. I’ve started to find more information on what this mean, the dr did he will poop more and have diarrhea, so I wonder if this is similar to having your small intestine remove or if the results will be different.
We’ll go to see him tomorrow, and talk more to the dr on detailed care, but any information or guidance will help, I feel like a terrible mom because he have a history of gastroenteritis and usually the antibiotic metronidazole and omeprazol would work, this time it didn’t and I waited until the morning to go for a re-check, I keep going into my head what if I took him early would they have operated him early and remove less colon making it better 🙁
Thanks for the comments, it’s good to know that there are other dogs with similar issues living a happy lifeEszter KParticipant
I hope this forum is still active, I’ve joined hoping for some advice, sorry for my English it’s my second language. In a nutshell my 6,5 year old dog swallowed a chestnut and he needed a surgery to remove it, 2 days later he needed another surgery as his small intestine perforated and his belly filled up with fecal liquid. During this second surgery 80% of his jejunum removed, this was 10 days ago today. Since then he needed another surgery as his outside stitches opened up due to the fecal liquid absorbing in his fats. Seems like he is healing well now he has an appetite, he seems to take enough water and all in all he seems happy. I know we’re not out of the woods yet but we hope he will fully recover.
Currently he is eating Calibra Gastrointestinal cans around 200g 3 times a day and he is getting Agroferm probiotics +multivitamins and he is still on antibiotics hopefully only for 2 more days. It seems like he is doing well with poops generally 3 times a day soft but formed occasionally diarrhea.
Our vet says he needs to eat the canned food for 2 weeks then we can slowly change to home cooked food and slowly increase the portions as well.
He dropped from 30 kg (60 lbs) to 26kg (57 lbs) in 3 weeks but we don’t know yet if he will keep dropping weight.
He is always hungry, I’m not sure it’s because he had part of his small intestine removed or if because we dropped his portions.
I’m unsure what I could cook for him, I know it should be high nutrition and we have to blend it. Our vet said lamb would be the best however in Hungary lamb is quite expensive. I want to feed him well and quality food and not wanting to save money on it but looking for alternatives. So if you could give me advice about what should I cook for him would be really appreciated.
I’ll also check if there is a nutritionist we could see however I’m not sure that’s a thing here unfortunately.
Thank you very much.
Hi Eszter, and everyone else:
First of, hope everyone is doing fine and staying at home. We are facing difficult times, but Im sure we will all get by in a couple of weeks (or months, depending on the evolution of a number of facts that right now are very unpredictable). Here in Brazil, and in my city Rio de Janeiro, the government has imposed rigorous restrictions, which part of society has been collaborative, and another part is just simply not aware of how serious this is. All in all, we have started our quarantine in a very early stage, and we are all hoping this will bring us a positive outcome in the medium-long turn.
As for your dog Eszter, I am very glad he has overcome all of these surgeries and is out of risk. In our case, my Border Collie (Maui) had a really really hard time with the post-surgical phase – we really did not know he would survive at all. He had aprox. 75% of his small intestines removed (basically all of his jejunum and ileum – only his duodenum was kept). In Brazil there were no registered cases of survival for dogs/cats that had this amount of small intestines removed, so he is really the first recorded case here – which is a victory, but was REALLY hard since we had NO IDEA of how to handle the first couple of months.
Since his ileum was removed, we did in fact suffer with his fesses. In the first two months, he went to the bathroom on average 20x a day, in practically liquid form. He lost A LOT of weight since the first surgery (he had 3 in total), and after his 1 month hospitalization, he only weighted 9kgs! (he started with 17kgs). He was practically skin and bones.
Now, it has been almost 2 years since he was released from the clinic, and since then we had a LONG JOURNEY. But this is a story of success, and now Maui is VERY strong. He weights 21kgs, all of his vitamins are great, and he goes to the bathroom 2 or 3 x a day! His stool is still very mushy.. the first one of the day, we can collect, the other 2, is king of a puree.. which makes is hard, however, since he got his ileum removed, there is almost no expectation that his stool will someday get back to being 100% “collectable”. He does ingest and absorb most of the good vitamins, what is the best part and it very clear since he is healthy, strong and his exams are all good.
It is hard to say exactly what will be best for your puppy… since every case is singular, but in our experience some things were essential for this positive outcome:
1) cooked Home food instead of kibble: We cook it weekly . Daily portion is about 1.2kgs (separated in 3x of 400g each). In summary each portion contains 1/3 meat without fat (in Brazil we use a meat called “Patinho” and “coxão mole” and “lagarto” – all red meat. We tried giving him chicken, but it led to 3 or 4 infections or gastroenteritis, so we never tried again. Fish was also ok, but I though he did not gain weight); 1/3 carbohydrates basically sweet potato, cassava, and a little of parboiled rice, and 1/3 vegetables: carrot, chayote, zucchini, beets, spinach or kale, string bean…
2) Pancreatin: With every meal, we give him a capsule of Pancreatin. Humam type (https://www.amazon.com/NOW-Pancreatin-10X200-250-Capsules/dp/B000776KK0)
3) Food supplements: With every meal, we give him a serving (In Brazil, we use the brand called Food Dog : https://www.petlove.com.br/suplemento-vitaminico-botupharma-pet-food-dog-adulto-manutencao/p/destaque?sku=1949715&utm_campaign=GS_&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsrKigKmx6AIVghGRCh3VlQutEAQYAiABEgLdP_D_BwE)
4) Probiotics: it really depends on your dog which type is best, and the amounts…
5) B12 vitamin replacement: in the beggining every week, and now he takes the shot every 1 or 2 months;
6) Metronizadol (in Brazil, called “Flagyl”): Initially I think he took 400mg per day. Now he takes 250mg every 3 days – which is still a lot, but it keeps him from getting intestinal infections.
I think this is it. If you wish to send me an e-mail, please feel free. I had great help from Karen and Abby (they are part of this forum too). We exchanged many many emails, info and experiences since both of our dogs had similar problems – this was a HUGE relief for me and I am very VERY thankful for all the help I had from them.
Wish all of you the best,
Stefanie and Maui
email: [email protected]
********* account: @brotherscolliebrLily HParticipant
I’m a dog mom to a 2.5 year old golden retriever who lost 2/3rds of his intestines, including his ilium about six months ago. They aren’t entirely sure the underlying cause but his intestines strictured and we almost lost him. I’m so thankful to have found this forum because there is so little information out there.
Our poor guy is pretty consistent these days but he seems to still be losing weight. We tried a number of commercial prescription diets (hills, Royal canin, Purina em) but the dry food kibble just gave him extremely liquid diarrhea which led to some rapid weight loss. We’ve been doing chicken and rice but I can’t help but feel like he’s not getting enough nutrients so we are going to consult with the nutritionist again. (For those in the US the university of Tennessee has animal nutritionists and they do remote consultations and diet plans for between $100-300).
Baker is on about eight medications a day (I’d be happy to share if anyone would like the list). But the thing I’ve noticed makes the biggest difference in his stool is the fiber powder we give him with each meal. He pops about 3 times a day and because he’s eating 2000+ calories a day the bms are quite large. I’m hopeful that over time his diet can help firm things up and that he’ll start absorbing some of the calories.
I have a couple questions for the group of people are still active. First, when did people start noticing their dog gaining weight again? Was it a time frame or once related to another metric?
Second, Baker has recently started having a lot of pain/trouble with his hind end and possibly his spine. We saw a neurologist and she didn’t think it was a disc problem. Xrays said it could be possibly mild hip dysplasia. It’s just crazy to think he has another, unrelated problem. I’ve noticed he seems uncomfortable when he poops because the stance is hard on his back end and I wonder if any other chronic diarrhea dogs have had similar issues from the amount of time spent in that awkward position?
Hello Lily and everyone,
Karen Here…Mom of Abby who is doing so great you would never know she lost 70% of her small bowel. Lily, What I have learned is Baker needs time to heal, It took close to 2 years before Abby was completely healed (and as a nurse I can tell you, even with humans, a wound may be closed but the healing underneath takes up to 2 years). Secondly, getting a good home made dog food recipe really made the difference for Abby. She hated all the prescription kibble and her poops were always watery and frequent, up to 10 times a day, when she was on some of those foods (Purina in particular)
Thirdly, Metronidazole daily helped to keep her gut flora in check. She was on Metronidazole 2 times daily for about 10 months. when we could see that she was improving we slowly weaned it….really slowly
Four: If Baker lost his ilium, he will need injections of B12 for the rest of his life. B12 is absorbed in the ilium so if you don’t have one anymore then you can’t absorb it.
Five: get Baker away from probiotics. We were giving Abby probiotics for a year after the injury thinking we were helping her but if you look at the type of bacillus in probiotics, at least half of the species are lactose-bacillus. Lacto bacillus is the most common bacteria in the stomach, duodenum, and jejunum. If Baker lost his lower intestines then giving him more of the bacteria he naturally produces in the upper intestines will overrun what little lower GI bacteria he can produce, which will contribute to more diarrhea and discomfort.
I can’t help you with the hind end pain problem, but certainly when Abby was pooping 10 times a day she wasn’t comfortable. Could it be a post surgical/scar tissue problem? That hurts.
Anyway, I am happy to send you any and all information I have. The prescription home made diet recipe was a game changer for Abby and I have shared this recipe with Stephanie too. I believe it also had a very good result for Maui. The recipe is specifically designed for dogs who have lost much of their small intestine (the part that absorbs most nutrients). It is a low fat, high carb, high protein, lots of veg diet and we add a vitamin supplement and a small amount of canola oil every meal (very small amount…1ml to each meal). The recipe was created by a clinical nutritionist veterinarian at the Ontario Veterinary College…which is 15 minutes away from where we live (The OVC saved abby’s life that fateful night, another regular vet office would not have been able to save her –her story has even been used in case studies at the OVC)
Finally, Abby’s weight dropped significantly in the first year after her surgery, she lost almost 25% of her post op weight after 6months. That is when we started the homemade diet and daily metronidazole and stopped the probiotics.
Let me know what you think….Karen
my email address is [email protected]Lily HParticipant
Thank you, Karen! I’m definitely going to email you. I’m desperate to get some weight on this guy. So I’m glad to know a homemade diet made a difference for Abby. I bet with some proper nutrition it will start to stick 🙂Andree CParticipant
Hi guys! I was so excited to find this forum. My pup Winnie had a double intestine recession and introplacation of the intestine 6 weeks ago. We still have about 8 to 9 bouts of diarrhea a day. Grade 7. We stuggle with the food since Winnie is a large breed puppy and she is on hydrolyzed protein at the moment. I create a facebook group today maybe we can all connect because i need help. Its so hard to see her struggle to gain weight.
What does your vet say about 8 to 9 bouts of diarrhea a day- Grade 7.
You need to work out does she do better on a lower fiber diet -2% under fiber or a higher fiber food -7%+ fiber,
What is the fiber % what she is eating now? Is it Royal Canin Hypoallergenic vet diet?? is it a low fiber diet-1% fiber??
Also if she is a Large Breed puppy then she needs a large breed puppy kibble so her bones don’t grow to quickly causing Osteoarthritis & joint problems.
Tell vet the vet diet he/she prescribed is NOT helping your dog, you can also call/email Hills, Royal Canin they have Vet Nutritionist who can advise on what is the best vet diet for double intestine recession and introplacation of the intestine?
A vet nutritionist will probably know a bit more about diet then your vet knows about nutrition.
My boy suffers IBD I found grain free – Potato kibbles work best for Patch- NO Lentils, Lentils can cause intestinal stress.
Wellness Core L/B Wellness Complete Health Large Breed kibbles
Canidae All Life Stages, Large Breed Turkey Meal & Brown Rice kibble.
Maybe a raw diet would be best if she cant handle Fiber, or those dog rolls sold in pet fridge section.
You never put up your F/B group name.Laurence TMember
Maybe I could help.
3 years ago, our dog got a huge mass around his small intestines and we almost lost him. To save him they removed 80% of his small instestines. They thought it was cancer. But after 2 years or different med treatments and ultrasounds, they found out he has a problem with his immune system, where his system is attacking the good bacterias in his stomach, creating masses.
So he has to take sterioids, prednisone, in extremely small dosage, enough to supress his immune system, and keep the masses from forming.
However, since his surgery, he is left with short bowel syndrom – aka. constant diarrhea. After 3 years, I can keep him a decent weight and have only two to three (soft stools a day).
Here’s how. Maybe it could work for you guys. After his surgery, he would go to the washroom 10 times a day, waking us up 4 times a night. We tried all kinds of specific vet foods with high fiber, etc. He would also be so skinny all the time because he would never have time to digest the food. He used to eat the Royal Canin Hypo diet bags and would go through 2 bags a week and it was horrible. And then when I looked in the ingredients the first one was cellulose and obviously it wasn’t working… The vets are sold on selling you Royal Canin because Royal Canin sponsors them…
So we switched him to raw food and it was life changing. We don’t make it, we buy it from the pet store in the fridges. I give him a lot more patties than what they prescribe a day for his weight, but since we switched him 2 years ago to raw, he’s gained back all of his weight, and he only goes to the washroom 3 times a day. Not asking for the door at night anymore. The reason is that the raw food takes a lot more time to digest than the pebbles, so he has time to take a bit of supplements.
Also, we give him probiotics in his water, and he takes a shot of B12 every week or two weeks – that helps alot with the diarrhea as well.
He is also on metronidazole every day, on prednisone every 2 days (to prevent the masses) and take two immodiums a day.
And he seems like he is doing well. 🙂
If any of you want to ask further questions, please let me know !
- This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Laurence T.
Thank you Laurence for responding. This is helpful.
A few questions if you don’t mind. Do you have a specific raw diet you follow? and when you say patties, what type of meat is it you are feeding your dog?
get both dogs into a strict routines, their training to be inside dogs will be easier + dogs love a routine, keeps them more relaxed cause they know whats happening next & will get to know toilet break times, walk times, etc.
My boy suffers IBD my vet said get Patch into a poo/walk routine this really helped him in the beginning.
To keep Zelda calm get some proper CBD Oil, it will keep her calm & relaxed, helps with pain, inflammation & healing.
When you have a spare 20mins watch Anglea Ardolino video below, she’s a Pet Cannabis expert, at 8-13mins is the most improtant part of video to watch – how to buy proper CBD oil.. how CBD companies lie, false labeling etc
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