How much food do I feed my dog?

Dog Food Advisor Forums Diet and Health How much food do I feed my dog?

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  • #117552 Report Abuse

    Ryan K
    Member

    My question is a little bit layered but the main one is how much boiled chicken and rice for a bland diet should I feed my 26 lb dachund terrier mix? I have no idea if I’m supposed to do a cup twice a day or two cups twice a day? I’ve been doing one cup twice a day since yesterday. I don’t want to underfeed him.

    Also, does anyone have any ideas why my dogs triglycerides were so high? Is that usually a cholesterol issue? My vet made me take him back after fasting and draw blood again yesterday. I’m concerned this is a serious issue. All his other blood work was great. The triglyceride was the only high abnormal level. His urine mircoalbumin canine reflex was elevated too. I have been having a hard time getting him to eat over the last few months. He has become very picky. I had comprehensive x rays done 2 weeks ago when he seemed to be in pain. He was tensed up and shaking for an entire night and had runny stool. He has slipped a disc in the past so I was worried it was a flare up of his IVD but the vet said it seemed ok in the x rays. His X-ray also showed moderate hip dysplasia. My biggest concern though is his eating. I just ordered a bag of Hills I/D naturals low fat. It’s a little better then the regular I/D in that it’s not full of corn and fillers. The fat content is 7%. My worry is the fiber content. It says 1.5%. Shouldn’t this be higher for a RX food? Should I be concerned with that? Overall, I’m just a worried mess over my dog and his sudden lack of interest in kibble and his shaking and stomach seeming to be upset. I want him to feel better fast.

    Also, does anyone have any idea if Nutro Healthy Weight would be a better substitute for a low fat food for him? Is that a decent food? The fat content is 7% on that and the fiber is 11%. I’m wondering if I should just return the RX and go with the Nutro. So confused! Any ideas would be great.

    #117553 Report Abuse

    Patricia A
    Member

    I feel your pain. I’ve actually had sleepless nights researching all the reviews and countless opinions on the best dog food. I’ve got three dogs and each has different nutritional needs. I gave Fromm for years if you want to look into their reviews. If you go to the top of site you’ll see “LIBRARY” . Click on that and Advisor give Best Low fat dog foods. I don’t think you have to be a member to see his list. Also I don’t know if Goggle News is reliable but I found this the other day. http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2018/06/millions-of-roaches-plagued-maker-of-pedigree-iams-ceasar-other-pet-foods/#.WyWU0C3MzJ8. Just in case I’d stay away from Nutro. Hope this helps a little.

    #117554 Report Abuse

    Patricia A
    Member

    Always wanted to add this: Hyperlipidemia refers to the elevation in blood lipids (fats) and is fairly common in dogs. After a dog eats a meal, triglycerides and cholesterol levels rise in the blood and then come back down to normal levels again within 3-10 hours. However, in hyperlipidemia, fat levels remain high for over 12 hours. Even in us humans if you test trigs before fasting it would be sky high after a meal. Do you have him on Rx because of high Trigs? If his trigs are normal after fasting maybe he just needs a 4 or 5* kibble . Like I said my dogs always did great with Fromm. My chihuahua is 16. I recently switched my other two to freeze dried Primal. Maybe a little boiled chicken/carrots/stringbeans to get his appetite going. If he’s shaking he just might be in pain though. Hope this helps.

    #117555 Report Abuse

    Ryan K
    Member

    Oh thanks! I had him on a Nutro and he seemed to like it which was a miracle. That was my only reason for wanting to stick with them. Plus, it seemed to be one of the rare foods to NOT flare up his skin allergies. Darn! I have tried Fromm with him in the past with no luck. He has such weird skin issues that It’s tricky finding a food that doesn’t make him go bonkers with hotspot and air infections. I have found that any foods containing any sort of probiotics seem to really exacerbates his allergy issues for some reason. I have also discovered that lentil seem to be an irritant for him. He does well on Chicken surprisingly and lamb. The hardest part is finding something without a large batch of probiotics mixed in as well as now finding something low in fat. Honestly, I will take the allergies if the food brings his triglycerides and cholesterol down.

    #117556 Report Abuse

    Ryan K
    Member

    Thanks for that info! The vet put him on this diet because his stomach lining on the x-rays appeared inflamed and he was eating a lot of weeds and vomiting. I wound up taking him to an emergency vet for the latest batch of bloodwork because he was panting all night. When I have the results of that said to just go with the RX diet the prior but had mentioned and to have his blood drawn again. I went back and had his blood taken but have not gotten the results back so I don’t know if his triglyceride level has gone down or not. I am praying and crossing my fingers that he has normal levels. The level was crazy though. It said the normal range was under around 290 and his was 2,081! What the heck?! I don’t even give him table scraps! Anyway, do you happen to know how much in cups I should be feeding a dog his size? I’m guessing it’s twice a day? He’s a grazer so it’s tough. With rice and chicken I am not sure since I am just putting it down for him to eat right away. So confused.

    #117557 Report Abuse

    Patricia A
    Member

    Hope that his blood levels come back normal. At least this way you’re just dealing with the allergie issues. I didn’t notice any probiotics in this food. Look under reviews to see all ingredients . It’s high protein/ low fat and carbs. Wellness Core Reduced Fat (Dry)> When I top my threes dog food I sort of just eyeball it. I don’t want them to just get full on the chicken and not eat their other food. with your size dog maybe 1/4 chunk of a breast. Good luck again.

    #117558 Report Abuse

    Patricia A
    Member

    Just wanted to add he also might be shaking from hunger. Low fat dog food is not that appealing. If his trigs are okay I also think maybe this 5* food is good. Don’t think their is lentils and they have lamb recipes. https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/american-journey-grain-free-dog-food/ I hope someone else posts also with more advice.

    #117561 Report Abuse

    Ryan K
    Member

    Thanks so much! Me too!!

    I am not sure if I would give that one a go since it features probiotics. It’s one thing that I know seems to irritate his skin for some reason. Whenever I give him food with any probiotics he gets yeasty ears. It’s a curse! I don’t know why but that has always been the connecting ingredient that brings out the yeast in him. I’ll have to google other foods to see if there happens to be a low fat with no probiotic. I will give this RX dry food a chance while I am figuring things out. Maybe he will do well on it. My only concern is that low fiber content. I hope he can manage to poop with no problems. Hopefully, his triglycerides are normal after this next bloodwork. I’m so nervous. 🙁

    #117562 Report Abuse

    Susan
    Member

    Hi Ryan,
    do you have the money to see a animal nutritionist? & get a balanced cooked diet, join a few Facebook groups “K-9Kitchen” run by Monica Segal, Monica does balanced diets for health problems….
    there’s “K-9 Nutrition” group run by Lew Olson…
    also “Judy Morgan DVM” look at her videos on her F/B page she has a few home made balanced easy to make meals…

    When a dog is shaking its normally PAIN related, aso having diarrhea he probably was having intestinal pain could it have been Pancreas? did vet do blood test for Pancreatitis? also your dog might have IBD, my boy has IBD & he shakes when he has his stomach pain, I thought he was having Pancreatitis attacks cause he gets all the symptoms & he was shaking really bad, but blood test have always come back all good, no pancreatitis & the vet just says its his IBD, its stomach pain….
    So I have excepted he doesnt have Pancreatitis & its his IBD causing him pain after he has eaten something it has caused him bad pain, he does lift one of his front paws & wants me to rub his stomach/pancres area when he gets this pain & shakes….
    What was he eating when this was happening? was it a high fiber diet??
    Dogs have a short Digestive Tract, so they do better eating low fiber or no fiber at all my vet told me, how are his poos since starting the Hills I/d Digestive Care formula, are his poos firm, cause the Hills I/d Digestive Care formula’s are lower in fiber ??
    Try the Hills I/d low fat digestive care wet can food, I feed the Hills I/d Chicken,Vegetables & Rice wet can formula, it has less rice, No Fish Oil & has 14.9%-fat, I have to pick out all the boiled rice but Patch loves it for lunch & the cat gets all his rice & gravy she loves it.
    Hills have improve their vet diets & brought out some really nice wet can stews…

    Just ask your vet if you want to try a certain vet formula you think has OK ingredients & might agree with your boy.. I’d stick with the vet diets, they are balanced properly & made for certain health problems, some vet diets will help a few different health problems if you read “Key Benefits, look at
    Hill’s® Prescription Diet® w/d® Canine Vegetable & Chicken Stew it’s for a few health problems, maybe talk with your vet about trying the Hills W/d formula??
    https://www.hillspet.com/dog-food/pd-wd-canine-vegetable-and-chicken-stew-canned#accordion-content-054167331-2

    Have you tried “Natural Balance” LTD Potato & Duck formula the fat is low-10% & fiber-3%, but you have to remember when the protein% & fat % is lower the Carbs are higher this is when weight gain happens if they are couch potatoes & dont excercise daily, The Natural Balance limited ingredient formula’s have all different ingredients so make sure you look at the ingredient list…
    I would be feeding 3 small meals a day, same time every day, I’d feed 1-2 meals cooked meal or vet diet wet can food & the other meal the dry kibble… I feed 4-5 meals a day but my dog weighs 40lbs
    https://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dog-formulas/special-category-limited-ingredient-diets

    Here’s N/B Small Breed Potato & Duck, it has no probiotics
    https://www.chewy.com/natural-balance-lid-limited/dp/36763

    There’s Hills Prescription Weight Loss vet diet?? Ive heard dogs have very good results with this HIlls weight loss vet diet formula, Hills have brought out their
    Hill’s® Prescription Diet® Metabolic Natural Canine
    https://www.hillspet.com/dog-food/pd-metabolic-natural-canine-dry

    There’s Hill’s™ Prescription Diet™ Metabolic + Mobility Canine formula its lower in carbs-36%, the fat is a bit higher-14.6% in fat, probably from from all the omega oils for joint health, https://www.hillspet.com.au/dog-food/pd-metabolic-canine-dry

    *Metabolic + Mobility Canine has clinically proven nutrition to improve mobility in as little as 21 days AND reduce body weight by 13% in 60 days.

    *Hill’s® Prescription Diet® Metabolic Canine Lamb Meal & Rice Formula
    https://www.hillspet.com/dog-food/pd-metabolic-canine-lamb-meal-and-rice-formula-dry#accordion-content-054167331-2

    There’s Hills Prescription Diet™ Metabolic Canine Vegetable & Beef Stew or
    Hill’s™ Prescription Diet™ Metabolic + Mobility Canine Vegetable & Tuna Stew
    ingredients look good & no cooking, no balancing cooked diet.
    Here’s all Hills Weight Loss formula’s
    https://www.hillspet.com/search?_BRAND=pd&_CONDITION=weightCondition&_SPECIES=dog

    BUT 1 thing all of Hills Weight Loss formula’s are high in fiber, if your dog does OK with higher fiber & doesn’t get any pain or sloppy poos eating high fiber then try feeding the wet can foods, wet food is easier to digest then hard kibble….

    I have found when a dog becomes picky with its food they normally have stomach problems & food has caused them pain so they become very fussy & when a certain food has caused them pain they will refuse to eat that food, so best to stop feeding whatever it is & read ingredients, read fiber %, the Kcals per cup??
    Try & work out what is causing pain ….
    Good-Luck

    #117565 Report Abuse

    Ryan K
    Member

    Hi Susan! Thank you for all of that info!

    I am not sure that I would go raw or take him to a nutritionist. I might one day but right now I want to keep trying dry foods.

    I should have mentioned before that I have been having a hard time with him and foods since I decided to take him off his old Zignature Kangaroo recipe and put him on rx Hydrolized protein by Royal Canin and Science Diet Z/D. Both of these cleared his skin up immediately but made him incredibly…OFF. He seemed very agitated and unlike himself when he was on these two prescription foods. He seemed almost restless and irritable. Someone mentioned that it might have been the super high % of Omega 3’s in those diets so I got him off of them and ever since I have been trying new foods. He has been a mess since that. I haven’t had him on one food that has worked well. I am not sure if those rx foods just really messed with his gut and now he has still not recovered or what but I need to get it sorted out. I made sure that the Prescription food by Hills has low Omega’s this time because that was a concern. I also noticed that while on the Hydrolized protein diets his poops were incredibly loose and runny. That was a big part in my taking him off the ZD and trying the Royal Canin Hydrolized. I didn’t like how soupy his poops were. He has anal gland issues so I would prefer him to have a food that gives him a more firm stool. But, at this point…I just need his stomach and appetite to normalize. That’s my priority. If I find something that he actually EATS and doesn’t seem irritated by I am sticking to it. He did well on the Kangaroo by Zignature but the lentils make him super itchy and his ears get very gooey and gross when he eats it. I had him on Orijen six fish for probably the first 2 years of his life (he’s 9 now) and he loved that but continually had ear issues…I realized it was the probiotics and stopped and they cleared up. I have had him on Acana which he likes but again…ear issues…skin issues….not fun.

    I did get several cans of the prescription diet you mentioned. Oddly enough, he does not like it! It’s so weird because he normally loves canned food but he sniffs it and turns away. I am hopeful that the fact that he is still eating boiled chicken and rice that that is a good sign? If he’s not eating anything I would be very scared. I think maybe I am overthinking this and giving him too many options and messing his system up. If his triglycerides come back as normal and there is nothing to worry about I will go from there. If that is a problem…I am not sure what the next step is. I think I also need to get him more exercise. He isn’t overweight…the vet says he looks healthy…but, he is very sedentary. I have a fenced yard and he runs around from time to time but nothing very regular. I might start walking him around the neighborhood. Maybe that will work up his appetite and help regulate him a bit more.

    Thank you very much for your amazing help!! 🙂

    #117913 Report Abuse

    Ryan K
    Member

    Update…
    Repeat blood-work showed normal triglyceride level which was a relief. His cholesterol came up as high that time though but the vet said all his other numbers were good so we shouldn’t be too concerned about that. I started him on Science Diet I/D Naturals and he hates it. He won’t eat it at all. He spits it out when he finds it mixed in his boiled rice and chicken. Should I keep up with this food or is his insistence of spitting it out pretty much a NO GO on this specific food? Ughhh! I’m so frustrated. Maybe I just need to throw in the towel and just feed him something that flares the allergies up that he likes but keeps his stomach content? It’s so hard finding something without zero lentils and no probiotic fermentation. 🙁 The nightmare continues!

    #117915 Report Abuse

    Susan
    Member

    Hi Ryan,
    if your cooking Chicken & Rice start adding some veggies, broccoli, carrot etc & start balancing 1 of his meals a day or over the week add things that will balance his diet over 1 week, in Australia we have “NAS Digestiavite Plus Powder” I had to mix thru Patches cooked or raw meal was just 1/2 a teaspoon & it didnt smell of vitamins, it smelt nice like spinach & kale its green powder & has everything to balance a dogs diet…..
    Take back the Hills 1/d dry kibble, I would of gotten him the wet Hills Digestive Care I/d Chicken, Vegetables & Rice wet can food, it smells really good, its balanced & formulated for a few health problems, sounds like your dog doesn’t like dry kibble, I wouldn’t flare up his Allergies, I’ve been feeding Patch Chicken since March, the Wellness Core Large Breed formula cause the fat is low/medium, protein % is med/high & carbs are low & Kcals are 345 per cup & Patch does well on it BUT now he has red paws, red around his mouth, he cant eat too much Chicken, the chicken agrees with his IBD/Stomach but not his skin… Have you tried “Wellness Simple” Turkey & Potato ? I buying a bag tomorrow, my cat even likes the Wellness kibbles but she wouldnt eat te TOTW kibble also teh Wellness is palabity money back guaranteed…you have to read thru all the Wellness formula’s ingredients for no lentils, the Natural Balance Potato & Duck or Sweet Potato & Fish doesnt have lentils or chickpeas or Probiotics…
    Ive read that Probiotics die by the time we get the kibble or once exposed to heat?? I dont know if this is correct..

    Tin Salmon & Sardines in Spring Water or Olive Oil will help balance his diet, Sardines are very healthy, Sardines have vitamins minerals, Omega 3 are very healthy, just read salt % & buy brand with the lowest salt %, add 2 spoons to 1 of his meals a day, also crush up 1 egg shell a day & add to 1 of his cooked meal for calcium…
    I often buy tin salmon in spring water, for making sandwiched the smaller cans, I drain all the spring water & add a few pieces of boiled sweet potatoes, 1/2 salmon & 1/2 boiled sweet potato & mix & give only 1/2 for a meal & the other 1/2 the next day… dogs love fresh fish..
    I’d look at “Judy Morgan DVM” face book page, look at her videos & “Pancreatitis Diet” her “IBD Diet” she has easy to make cooked balanced meals, you just put everything in a Slow Cooker, then freeze meals, probably healthier then feeding dry kibbles…
    Your dog is smart & he can smell the off meat in the dry kibble or he can smell the vitamins & omega oils in the vet diets something is turning him off…

    #117922 Report Abuse

    Patricia A
    Member

    Now that his blood work for high trigs is negative, you’re only dealing with the allergies. Got to get your dog to eat something before he gets gastritis from empty stomach. Please look at all of these choices which most are pea legume free. http://petfoodreviewer.com/best-dog-foods-without-peas/

    #117923 Report Abuse

    Patricia A
    Member
    #117977 Report Abuse

    Ryan K
    Member

    Thank you Patricia and Susan! Those are vey helpful! Maybe I am just focusing too much on attempting to find. 4 or 5 star food? I have to look into Wellness again. I could have sworn those had fermentation in them. I have no idea why but whenever there is probiotic in a dog food his ears almost instantly get yeasty. It never fails.

    I will look into Nature’s Balance. I was looking at the low calorie one by them but maybe I don’t need to go with low calories now that his triglycerides are good? Or should his cholesterol drive me toward something more fat free? He DID eat the dry kibble tonight when I put some Nulo wet on top of it. I was surprised cause he was spitting it out when I just had it mixed with rice and chicken. I also saw him eat a few kibbles out of his bowl earlier in the evening in a grazing way but he does seem disinterested in the flavor. This is confusing but I’m going to keep looking!! Thank you so much!!!

    #117984 Report Abuse

    Spy Car
    Member

    Hey Ryan,

    The best way to feed is always “by condition” rather than any fixed about. That means reducing calories if the dog is too heavy and increasing if the dog is getting too lean. On the last point, Americans tend to have very skewed ideas about what’s a healthy weight for dogs. It is best for dogs to be lean.

    The two best ways to assess “condition” are:

    1) To palpate the ribs with an eye towards assessing the degree of fat layer over the ribs. Ideally, that fat layer is very slight. In an obese dog, there will be a thick fat layer. Either way, this is your standard of measure as you adjust diet. It gives you a “bechmark.”

    2) The other useful measure is to observe the dog from overhead and see to what degree it has a “tuck” (waist). Obese dogs will have very little (or no) tuck. Again, the tuck becomes a secondary benchmark.

    As to diet, feeding low-fat is the worst thing one can do to reduce weight, While it seems counter-intuitive, dogs naturally metabolize fats as their optimal energy source. It was what they were shaped by evolution to thrive on. Carbohydrates on the other hand cut stamina and lead to obesity.

    If you can’t do a balance PMR style raw diet the best thing you could do is to slowly transition to a high protein/high fat (low carb) diet and to feed fewer overall calories while you slowly bring down the weight.

    The worst move is to increase the carbohydrates (by cutting fats) because those carbs (along with overfeeding and diet-linked de-conditioning) are the culprits in promoting obesity.

    Best,

    Bill

    #117994 Report Abuse

    CockalierMom
    Member

    Hi Ryan,
    All the Wellness kibbles contain probiotics so you can rule it out. It seems that a lot of dogs with allergies do not tolerate kibbles with probiotics or digestive enzymes. My allergy girl can only tolerate a small amount of kibble with probiotics and she does not tolerate any food with FOS (fructooligosaccharides) prebiotics whether it has probiotics or not.

    #118002 Report Abuse

    Ryan K
    Member

    Thanks Bill! That is good to know. I didn’t even think of that. It makes perfect sense that they should have lower carbs since it’s not something they ate in the wild.

    His weight seems good. That’s what the vets have told me. He seems to be fluctuating though from what I’m noticing. He’s going between 25-27 between these visits. Not sure if that is there scale or the dog. The vet always says his weight looks great though. He’s a smaller dog. I think weighed 24 back before he slipped the disc in his back though. As long as the vet says he looks healthy and not overweight i am content with that. I was looking at the higher protein foods. I might try the Natural Balance high protein lamb. He doesn’t react to Lamb negatively. It has 32% protein and 14% fat. Hopefully that is a good ratio. At this point, I literally just want him keeping down food and actually eating regularly and happily like he once did before I started messing with his foods to try to accommodate his skin allergies. If I can get healthy skin on top of a happy digestive system I will be thrilled. Thank you!

    #118007 Report Abuse

    Spy Car
    Member

    My pleasure Ryan. I’d still palpate your dog as described above and decide how much of a fat layer you are willing to accept. It really isn’t about “weight” per se, but how much body fat a dog is carrying. Muscle “weight” (to a point) is beneficial in taking strain off joints.

    Body fat, in contrast, is just a tax on the hips. I prefer my dogs run very lean while being athletically hard-muscled. That preference would only grow in importance were a dog showing signs of hip dysplasia. I’d want to trim body fat to the minimum while supporting muscle mass.

    In my humble opinion, a 32/14 formula would get you just over the minimum threshold of protein but would be very deficient in fat. Such a formula would still have too many calories from carbs for my taste. I’d like to see a minimum of 20% fat.

    If you are the researching type go to Google Scholar and search the veterinary literature for high-protein/high-fat vs high-carb studies. There have been many with sled dogs, hunting dogs, racing greyhounds, and even couch potato dogs. All the studies come to the same conclusions. Dogs burn fat with amazing efficiency and it is sustainable energy. In contrast, carbs load the muscles with blood glycogen initially, but then the energy stores are depleted. This is a boom-and-bust cycle.

    Carb burning also cuts aerobic capacity.

    Humans are different. We metabolize carbs pretty well as a source of long-term energy. We also tend to think fat will make us fat. It tends to be the opposite with dogs. Obviously one needs to take care with portion control with high-calorie rations. But feeding less food (by mass) with a higher caloric content (ie higher fat) will provide sustained energy. Such a formula makes it much easier to promote a strong lean body type.

    A 32/14 formula would still have too many calories from carbohydrates IMO. Read the research if you’re interested.

    The one caution I’d make if you do decide to go to a high-protein/high-fat diet is to transition slowly. It is always recommended to transition foods, but often that’s being “cautious.” Transitioning towards fat burning is different than just switching between different brands of high-carbohydrate kibble. Many changes have to happen from the release of different digestive enzymes by the pancreas to changes in the mitochondria at a cellular level.

    So go slowly if you do decide to follow this advice. Then keep palpating the dog and checking the tuck with the aim of hitting that optimal balance of leanness and muscle. It is the kindest thing one can do with a dog developing hip pain or hip dysplasia, save surgical interventions for dogs who require it.

    I hope this is helpful to you. Best with your dog.

    Bill

    #118131 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi Ryan,

    Triglycerides over 2000 yikes! I have some experience with this problem. When triglycerides are this high they can result in a variety of problems. Intestinal discomfort, vomiting, diarrhea, behavior abnormalities, seizures and pancreatitis have all been reported. This is serious stuff! It makes me wonder if the intermittent pain your dog is having is in any way related to abdominal discomfort from high triglycerides.

    From what I gather you temporally put your dog on a chicken and rice diet and then the triglycerides were normal. So the good news is that it appears diet responsive. Chicken breast and rice is a low fat diet if that is what you were feeding. To know how much you need to feed you’d feed an equivalent calories to the former diet. Rice is ~200 kcal /cup for steamed white rice and chicken breast is about 120 kcals for 100 grams

    What you absolutely do not want to do is follow the well meaning but misguided recommendation from spycar to feed a high fat diet (20% was rec,) low carb diet! This would be a recipe for disaster ..literally.

    If a secondary cause (for example hormonal problems) is found and treated than feeding a low fat diet may not be needed. But feeding a low fat diet is the foundation of treatment of primary hypertriglyceridemia.
    It looks like your vet is on top of this by recommending a low fat diet. If your dog doesn’t like the first commercial low fat ask for a different one. You’ll need a diet significantly lower in fat than the one your dog was on when the high level was found. Work with your vet.. this is a serious problem!

    Some dogs can use commercial diets usually low fat vet diets but others need to work with a nutritionist for ultra low fat diet. Balance it dot com has some semi customized recipes if you need to go that route.

    #118133 Report Abuse

    Ryan K
    Member

    Oh no! Now I’m torn! I was still in the midst of looking up high protein/high fat diets for him actually! I have him on Science Diet Sensitive Skin and Digestion right now because I had read a ton of reviews about it being very, very mild on the system which it seems to be so far. I don’t like the ingredients in it at all though. I would love for him to be on something more nutritious and highly rated but jeez…it’s tough now since his new sensitivities to things he was once pretty OK with. He used to do great on Orijen but now it makes him super itchy. I want him to be at the best weight though since his slipped disc issue on top of them telling me he has moderate hip dyslpasia. I was considering Natural Balance High Protein Turkey which is 32% Protein and 16% fat but maybe I will postpone that. I was also considering Natural Balance Low Calorie dog food as well as their Original Ultra formula…It’s just a waiting game to see what happens with this Science Diet right now and then to possibly try him on something else in a bit if he isn’t enjoying this or starts showing symptoms again. I’m glad his triglycerides went down to a normal level after his fasting. I hope everything stays the same. My poor little guy! 🙁

    #118134 Report Abuse

    Spy Car
    Member

    Again, about the worst thing one can do for a dog experiencing abdominal pain is to stuff it with low-calorie high-fiber foods.

    When a dog is fed a low-fat diet the difficulty is that the dog will not experience the kind of satiety that have when they are fed the essential fats they were shaped by evolution to thrive on. So such dogs always feel hungry and act hungry. In response, pet food companies add massive amounts of fiber to such formulas, often in the neighborhood of 28% fiber. The poor dogs fed such a ration have to carry and move all this excessive fiber through their systems, producing massive amounts of stool in the process. It is both uncomfortable, irritating to the GI tract, and is extra weight to carry in their bellies.

    It is unkind, in the extreme, to have a dog with hip or disk issues (and digestive issue) to place such an extreme tax on its digestive track in my estimation.

    And for what purpose? To deny it the fuel it actually needs for optimal energy delivery and good health so it can be (poorly) substituted with not essential calories from carbohydrates.

    The less food, by mass, that a dog in such a condition needs to move the better. Think about it.

    The higher fat ration provides the nutrients a dog actually needs and reduces the need to add fillers that are hard to process. All that extra poop (and it will be dramatically more) is evidence of what a dog needs to process to manage such an unnatural and unhealthful diet.

    Ryan, try to find a formula with over 20% fat. The high-carb/low-fat road really isn’t a good one. I really isn’t species appropriate. The amount of fiber is an assault on the digestive track designed to make the dog feel “full.”

    Instead, much smaller amounts of high protein/high-fat foods would serve your dog much (much) better.

    Ryan, I realize you are getting diametrically opposed advice. I’d ask yourself what makes sense? What did nature shape dogs to optimally consume? Was it heavily processed cereal loaded with extra fiber to fool a dog into thinking it was getting the fuel it needs? Or actually giving dogs a proper portion of what they thrive on?

    Think about it.

    If triglycerides are high, the likeliest culprit is hypothyroidism. Has your vet ruled that out?

    If this is related to diet it is far (far) more likely that it is related to high-carbs than fat.

    Best,

    Bill

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by  Spy Car.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by  Spy Car.
    #118137 Report Abuse

    Ryan K
    Member

    Thanks for responding Bill!
    That all makes a ton of sense. It IS very conflicting to what some are telling me to do so it’s a tricky spot. I do know though that he did much better physically when he was on a higher protein diet. I’m not sure if hypothyroidism was ruled out. Would that show up in the blood work or is that a specific test he would require? My vet didn’t mention it. I do think it is most likely diet since all of his issues began when I started attempting to fix his skin issues by mixing up foods for him. It also didn’t help when he slipped his disc and didn’t have any appetite so I wound up relying on canned food which then led to him not wanting dry again. I am open to trying the high protein again for sure since I do know that he did so well on it in the past. I might just need to throw in the towel on his skin issues and go with the higher quality food. I am not having much luck finding foods with fat levels over 20% though. I will keep looking. I see them near 18% but I haven’t found one yet over 20. I was contemplating a go on Nulo Freestyle Turkey & Sweet Potato Recipe Grain-Free Adult Dry Dog Food. It has 33% protein with 18% fat. Not sure if that sounds like a good one to try or not. But, I am definitely investigating. I just want him to settle a bit and recover a bit. I’ll definitely try a new food soon for him though! He isn’t thrilled about this Science Diet. He only eats it if I throw a chicken topper on it so it’s not winning me over. I might also go back to Instinct by Nature’s Variety Original Grain-Free Recipe Rabbit. He was on that for about a year and liked it a lot. That was when he was a young dog though. I think the protein on that is 36.5% and the Fat is 20% so it could be spot on with that recommendation. We’ll see! I might order that though soon! Thank you Bill!

    #118142 Report Abuse

    Spy Car
    Member

    Ryan, I appreciate the spot you are in getting diametrically opposed advice.

    In the years I’ve fed a PMR style raw diet I’ve come to be able to spot raw fed dogs when I see them. It has happened a good number of times when I met “strange dogs,” and usually getting the “how did you know…well, of course, you know” type responses.

    And I’ve been on the other side, where strangers have approached me and known immediately that my dog is raw fed.

    You can tell when a dog doesn’t eat carbs. Every part of their condition from the skin, fur, teeth, breath and especially lean muscle mass with low body fat is vastly better. They stand out markedly from the condition of kibble-fed dogs.

    Second-best is feeding a kibbled ration that reduces carbs as much as possible.

    Here is a link to the type of formula I’d like to see.

    https://victorpetfood.com/product-items/grain-free-ultra-pro/?portfolioCats=133%2C134%2C165%2C135%2C153%2C159%2C160

    Disclaimer, I’ve never fed this food (as I feed raw) and I have no relationship with Victor’s. It is just an example of a reasonably inexpensive alternative called Victor Ultra Pro. It is a 42% protein/22% fat formula that they claim is 81% animal protein and has 14% carbs. Hard to do better than that with a kibbled diet.

    It is nutrient dense (high calorie) at 479kcal/cup, so you’d probably need to feed about 2/3 the portion of a less dense food (depending). Maybe less. That also figures in cost. The volume of poop would also be cut significantly. Not just nice for you, but much kinder for a dog (especially one with issues) not to move extraordinary amounts of waste through their GI tract.

    Since the fat provides a sustained energy supply, you could feed once a day (at days end) and your dog could then go to sleep instead of carrying around a belly full of food (which is actually really hard on dogs, especially breeds like yours with his conditions).

    The fat in this sort of food would keep him satisfied (w/o the need for obscene amounts of fiber) and would supply steady energy.

    I’d expect triglycerides to improve on the small chance the problem is diet related.

    I would definitely ask for a thyroid panel to be run at the vet. I’m a little surprised they have not done so already.

    I’d resist the low-fat/high-fiber-diet. I think your dog would suffer from such diet. It is no wonder he doesn’t like it. No diet could be more unnatural for a canine to eat. I’ve seen too many dogs on this misguided sort of diet, they never fare well. It is about the worst diet one could feed a dog in terms of nutrition.

    I’m sorry you are getting contradictory advice. But there is no question which way I’d go based on the nutritional needs of dogs described in the veterinary science.

    Best,

    Bill

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by  Spy Car.
    #118144 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Ryan,
    When a dog eats fat the triglyceride level in the blood increases, and then it clears. In normal dogs the triglyceride level really shouldn’t exceed 500 and then it falls back to a “resting” level. Your dog’s triglyceride level was over 2000 Blood triglyceride levels over 1400 are associated with pancreatitis.

    My dog had fat metabolism problems and it sounds like your dog also might have this problem. Please talk to your vet. These are not normal dogs .. they can not tolerate fat levels that other dogs can. She nearly died after one meal of 20% fat content. She got into the cat food. Though I knew she had problems with triglycerides and the only thing that kept them in check was a low fat diet I didn’t recognize how life threatening a single high fat meal could be. A single meal and she had necrotizing pancreatitis. She was taken into surgery and the Dr called and told me that there was only a small portion of her pancreas that wasn’t black and dead. He didn’t think she would survive.. her belly swollen with fluid from sterile peritonitis…she was in critical care for days on end. I visited every day thinking it would be her last. bloody fluid draining from her abdomen.. it was awful somehow she lived. It was over 2 months before she had her full strength back.

    For dogs that have fat metabolism abnormalities the fat percentage in the diet should be significantly lower than what it was in the diet being fed when the high triglyceride blood level was identified.

    Your dog’s level was 2081, a normal dog even after eating a high fat meal shouldn’t exceed 500. Does it make sense to feed a high fat diet to a dog that may be missing key enzymes needed to metabolize fat? Again normal less than 500 … your dog 2081.

    Here is an article on the problem https://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/the-benefit-of-low-fat-pet-food-in-dogs-with-gi-disease/

    Best of luck

    #118145 Report Abuse

    Spy Car
    Member

    Ryan, do you have a fasting triglyceride result back yet?

    I was under the impression the re-test results were not back yet, yes/no?

    I’d work with your vet to rule out obvious issues like hypothyroidism or diabetes before jumping to a conclusion that your dog has pancreatic issues.

    The same unhealthful high carb diets can stress the pancreas (by causing an unnatural demand on pancreatic amylase) and that can be a factor in dog’s developing pancreatitis. If the dog does have signs of pancreatitis then a high-fat diet would be counter-indicated. It’s a bad cycle.

    One thing I think we can all agree on is work with the vet to know what’s actually going on.

    Bill

    #118146 Report Abuse

    Ryan K
    Member

    Wow, Aimee I’m glad your dog is doing better. That had to be very scary. 🙁

    Bill…I did have his triglyceride level tested the following day after fasting him. The level was 90 which they said was normal. I think the Precision PSL test is the one for pancreas health? That one came up 107 which is in normal range. The only red marker was on his cholesterol which was 327 which is high by a couple points. My vet said it seems ok since all his other values were good. I am truly stumped. Aimee’s points are concerning to me if this truly is something that could crash his system from too much fat but I also agree that a dog is naturally better off with higher protein and less carbs. I just need to figure out what this dog truly needs for his specific condition. I bookmarked that Victor food. I have seen it on Chewy before and wanted to look into it. Is that a bad choice though for a dog like mine who is fairly sedentary? Someone once told me not to go too high with protein and fat if the dog was lazy…which mine tends to be. I might call my vet to see what she thinks about these diet suggestions. I want to figure this out so I can move on and have my old dog acting like himself again. Thanks you guys!!!

    #118148 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Spycar,

    I call horse manure on this “The same unhealthful high carb diets can stress the pancreas (by causing an unnatural demand on pancreatic amylase) and that can be a factor in dog’s developing pancreatitis.”

    Not a single shred of of evidence for this. Propaganda! I expect better from you!

    Ryan,
    I’m glad she made it too.. She dies many years ago at the age of nearly 14. She always had a high glucose after that incident, but not so high as to need insulin. A large part of her pancreas was destroyed. She lived out her life on a high carb low fat diet and didn’t have any more troubles.

    #118150 Report Abuse

    Spy Car
    Member

    @aimee, labeling the obvious as “propaganda” and horse manure is….

    Dogs were not shaped by evolution to consume carbohydrates. That’s a fact.

    Dogs have no capacity to produce salivary amylase (the enzyme necessary to digest starches/sugars/carbohydrates) all omnivores possess. When omnivores chew plant matter those salivary enzymes start working to digest the food.

    This doesn’t/can’t happen with dogs, as they lack the capacity.

    Dogs, in a trait that is unevenly distributed in the population, have acquired a capacity to produce amylase in their pancreas. This aided them, as opposed to their wolf species-mates (who have less capacity) in surviving as opportunistic carnivores in a relationship with humans.

    But producing pancreatic amylase is not the optimal or normal condition for dogs and –as mentioned–the capacity is highly variable.

    To take a marginal capacity (that is a dog’s ability to produce enough pancreatic amylase) a push it to the maximum by feeding dogs highly unnatural carbohydrate-rich cereal-based diets puts tremendous strain on that organ. It is an assault on the pancreas. It sets up a dog to be sick.

    Often the precipitating event that leads to pancreatitis is the consumption (by a sickened dog) of a high-fat meal that it is unaccustomed to eating. This happens because the pancreas becomes conditioned to spilling the “wrong” digestive enzymes to metabolize fat and in the confusion, those “wrong” enzymes instead attack the tissues of the pancreas causing damage.

    Fat gets “blamed” for pancreatitis and the stressed and ill effects of a high-carb diet in sickening the pancreas is ignored. Dogs who eat a high-fat diet as a matter of course (and as intended my nature) do not work their pancreases overtime. Nor do they confuse the pancreas with which digestive enzymes to release. As a result, pancreatitis is very rare among those dogs and not-at-all uncommon in dogs fed high-carb kibble diets.

    The pancreas has two functions.

    One is to release digestive enzymes, and high-carb diets clearly undermine pancreatic health through a demand for excessive levels of pancreatic enzymes and causing a predisposition for pancreatitis.

    The other is to regulate blood sugars. Again, an unnatural high-carb causes wild swings in a bogs blood sugar levels. Boom and bust. The pancreas has to work overtime in an attempt to control for a diet that isn’t species appropriate. This also takes a toll on pancreatic health.

    Such a diet sets up a dog for pancreatic problems.

    In contrast, fat metabolism keeps a dog’s blood sugars extremely even. They produce steady glucose supplies easily and on demand in a slow and steady fashion that places no strain on the pancreas. This promotes good pancreatic health.

    So with both pancreatic functions, the “endocrine function” that regulates blood sugars) and the “exocrine function” (that produces digestive enzymes) fat metabolism works with nature to promote pancreatic health and high vitality.

    In contrast, a high-carb diet taxes the pancreas by requiring it to produce excessive (and wholly unnatural) amounts of pancreatic amylase due to feeding a modern processed cereal-based food. Then the stress on the pancreas is compounded on the exocrine by the wild ride of trying to control blood sugars.

    Those assaults on pancreatic health set up high-carb eating dogs to be sick. Not “propaganda,” but an honest evaluation of dog physiology. The junk-food diet is at the root of the problem. That’s what happens when species inappropriate food is marketed for dogs.

    Bill

    #118151 Report Abuse

    crazy4cats
    Member

    Hi Ryan K-
    Your dog has a medical condition. It cannot eat like a healthy sled dog! LISTEN TO AIMEE AND YOUR VET!
    Aimee is a long time poster, she knows her stuff!!!!!

    #118152 Report Abuse

    Spy Car
    Member

    @ryan, your dog is likely sedentary as a direct result of being fed a high-carb ration.

    That is to say, high carb diets directly reduce stamina and vitality. Such dogs will show very poor aerobic capacity when tested on treadmills and their VO2 Max scores are tested. The food actually de-conditions the dogs.

    A study was done on such dogs. Overweight couch potato types who were fed high-carb diets. The VO2 max scores were terrible. The same dogs were shifted to a high-protein/high-fat diet. When re-tested after a time on this diet (with no other changes in lifestyle) the VO2 Max score soared to nearly the same levels as highly conditioned dogs, based on that dietary change alone.

    The reason is that dogs have an amazingly efficient capacity to metabolize fat for sustained energy. It is the food they thrive on. In contrast, a dog fed a high-carb diet will have a brief period of energy and then a bust where it crashes and sleeps.

    Sadly, I think too many dog owners like the effect of “tranquilizing” their dogs through bad diets, sorry to say. Those de-conditioning diets lead to ill health on a variety of levels.

    Dogs with stamina and vitality have those things in direct relationship with their diets. The increased metabolic activity helps keep such dogs trim and well-muscled.

    I’m very happy to hear about the good test results! Definitely work with the vet to ensure there is no contraindicating condition for moving to a higher fat diet (like emerging pancreatitis), but overall it is a much healthier option for dogs.

    Your dog certainly can (and should) eat like a sled dog, it just requires much less food. You’d see a big increase in vitality and health.

    When dogs are fed junk food all the consequences, from obesity, to bad lipid profiles, to bad skin, bad teeth, to stressed organs, follows.

    proper nutrition is not for sled dogs and sporting dogs alone. The falsehood that is is is one of the most damaging untruths in canine nutrition (or should we say malnutrition) and is the reason so many dogs suffer needlessly from ill health.

    Again, congrats on the good test results!

    Bill

    #118168 Report Abuse

    Ryan K
    Member

    Thank you again everyone!

    I had a rough night with him. I gave him too much of the science diet sensitive stomach and skin and he spent the whole morning crazily scarfing Down weeds like a maniac and attempting to hack them up. I should have also mentioned in previous messages here that my vet suspects possible tracheal collapse in him. He has hacked a lot since he was about 6+. It’s just gotten worse in the last year or so. I gave him a Pepcid and it seemed so kind of settle his crazy grass/weed eating. I didn’t see him actually vomit though. I am just a bit confused as to how to feed him kibble now since he truly hasn’t been on any REGULAR kibble diet in months. So, would I just do the bland diet of boiled chicken and rice and then gradually add kibble in small amounts? I keep making things worse for him with this insane kibble swapping. I need to settle on one TODAY! Very frustrating.

    #118169 Report Abuse

    Patricia A
    Member

    Spy car I’m sorry to hijack these posts to help Ryan but you are the only i’ve read addressing fat benefits in dogs diet. I’ve posted several times about my concerns regarding my transition to Stella Chewy’s and Primal freeze dried with no replies. I have a should be 5lb chihuahua who is over weight. Switched about 6 months ago from Fromm grain free with canned topper. I’m not seeing any weight lose even though her walks have increased significantly. I’ve read that a 5lb dog should be getting between 80 and 120 calories a day. She gets Stella Chewy’s kibble of just 1/8 cup with less than 1 Patty or nugget a day. Morning my husband makes hard boiled egg and it is divided between my other two Chis’ of 16 year old and 3 years old . So she’s getting about 110 a day. I eliminated any treats and also totally stopped her food stealing from the other dogs. She SHOULD have lost but I still see a fat layer over her shoulder blades. You wrote about carbs causing weight gain. Stella and Primal says low carbs.I’ve read on small breed forums that their dogs actually LOST weight on the same foods I’m giving her. I love giving them the different flavors of rabbit, venison and primal’s Turkey/Sardine. It’s convenient but mostly I feel so good about feeding them something better then canned or kibble. I’m at a loose what to do. She’ll be eight and want to get her trim.
    Also Ryan I feel so bad for you. You’re trying so hard and I know my sleepless nights regarding worrying about your pet. I agree with the strickly boiled chicken n rice until her stomach is better. Then GRADUALLY adding anything but Science Diet. Like you said I think also the allergies are going to have to take a back seat to her stomach at this point.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by  Patricia A.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by  Patricia A.
    #118170 Report Abuse

    Spy Car
    Member

    Ryan, would you consider a short-term trial boiling up some lean chicken and perhaps either lean beef heart and/or lean pork (like tenderloin) and a small amount of liver and kidney (5% of each)?

    Then adding 1/2 teaspoon of finely ground eggshell to the cooled mix to maintain a calcium/phosphorus mineral balance. No rice.

    Has the vet given any suggestion there is an emergent problem with pancreatitis or other good reasons for restricting fats? I would not make a decision on a new kibble without that knowledge. Otherwise, I’ve expressed my strong preference for a high-protein/high-fat diet over a high-carb option, all things being equal.

    Have you spoken with the vet about checking for hypothyroidism and diabetes? These can whack out triglyceride levels.

    I’m sorry you and your dog are suffering so much. You are an obviously conscientious owner. Sorry to see you in such a tough spot.

    Best,

    Bill

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by  Spy Car.
    #118175 Report Abuse

    Spy Car
    Member

    @patricia, the good news is that you are seeing higher vitality (longer walks). That’s good.

    Could you list or link to the specific foods you are serving?

    The Stella kibble I’m seeing is only 14% fat. Despite being 36% protein (which is good), that means a lot of the calories are still coming from carbohydrates, which will disrupt fat-metabolism and slow weight loss.

    One also has to account for the higher calories in nutritionally dense food and adjust accordingly. Feed by condition and not by formula. Too many calories are still too many calories even if they come from optimal food sources.

    And the Stellas kibble I see is not optimal.

    Best, Bill

    #118177 Report Abuse

    Patricia A
    Member

    Thank you Spy for replying. Originally they were all eating Fromm grain free with a topper of health extension Vets Choice Chicken. Also toppers when I cooked of boiled chicken, salmon and steak if they were lucky that day. Its was a long winter and walks were very limited. Also when my three year old Chi put her nose up at the Fromm and topper Tia would steal before I had a chance to grab it from her. Hence the weight gain. My 16 year old is still her old food which at her age she’s been doing VERY well with. Of course she gets EXTRA chicken etc when others not looking at this point in her life. I finally gradually switched to the Stella’s kibble but really it’s a VERY small amount of her diet. Also cut down to tiny bit of the steak, salmon etc when we ate that because I think I was over doing the amount. So between the walks, treats cut out and her food being cut down I thought by now she would show a trimmer body type. So now you said Stella kibble is high in carbs. Even though it says low. I think her other food was average carbs so I thought I was doing better with that. Below is the list of foods I’ve been giving so far with the freeze dried. It’s ahttps://primalpetfoods.com/products/raw-freeze-dried-canine-duck-formula#variant=35868839058lways dehydrated with warm water. Thank you for your help. https://www.stellaandchewys.com/dog-food/freeze-dried-raw-dinners/patties/venison-blend https://primalpetfoods.com/products/raw-freeze-dried-canine-turkey-sardine-formula#variant=36371519122https://primalpetfoods.com/products/raw-freeze-dried-canine-duck-formula#variant=35868839058
    Is this kibble recipe lower in carbs? https://www.stellaandchewys.com/dog-food/raw-coated-kibble/beef-recipe

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by  Patricia A.
    #118179 Report Abuse

    Spy Car
    Member

    @patricia thanks for the links. I took a quick look and am not really well acquainted with these products (as I feed PRM style).

    It is hard for me to tell how much of the dog’s diet comes from each and what comes from toppers and other such items. All told, it seems like the aggregate would be fairly low carb, especially when compared to a standard kibble.

    The kibble is pretty low fat, but the freeze-dried Stellas and the Primal help compensate.

    I prefer “no carb” but also don’t believe in making the perfect the enemy of the good.

    At this point, I’d advise cutting down the rations slightly, especially the kibble (perhaps eliminating it entirely?), and seeing how that goes.

    As I mentioned previously, palpate your dog’s ribs to get a good impression of how much of a fat layer is there and work on reducing it over time.

    Sounds like you still need to cut overall calories and I’d try to make the reduced calories come from reduced carbohydrates. See how your dog’s vitality and desire to walk responds to the diet changes.

    Bill

    #118180 Report Abuse

    Spy Car
    Member

    @ Ryan, my post address to you above should have read 1/2 teaspoon ground eggshell PER POUND OF MEAT [emphais added on the missing detail].

    Bill

    #118181 Report Abuse

    Patricia A
    Member

    Thank you again Spy. I feel like crying just thinking about starting over with new food . I have been cutting the kibble little by little . If I continue to feed a little kibble with their food I will research just a switch to a VERY low carb/high protein and average fat since they get enough fat from the raw. Let you know if I start to see any results. She also have a vet appt coming up and will ask about blood work for any thyroid issue.

    #118194 Report Abuse

    Spy Car
    Member

    Absolutely no cause for tears Patricia, you are doing fine. Simple adjustments. Cutting the rations just a tad. I’d mostly from the kibble portion if it were me.

    BTW: The reason I asked Ryan about his dog’s thyroid is mainly because hypothyroidism can elevate triglycerides.

    Please let us know how your dog fares.

    Best,

    Bill

    #118195 Report Abuse

    Patricia A
    Member

    Hey Ryan….I came across this food from others who wanted a legume/lentil/ pea free dog food because of allergies. This got very high ratings and dogs are doing great on it. Please check it. https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/sport-dog-elite-series-dog-food/

    #118201 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi Spycar,

    I thought we should look at some of the statements you made

    You wrote: “Dogs were not shaped by evolution to consume carbohydrates. That’s a fact.”

    Actually no… it is not a fact. this is why dogs are classified as omnivores. Now I know you’ll disagree with that fact. So let’s consult an entity which you trust .. the NRC. you wrote “…National Research Council of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences. The NRC is the world’s recognized leading authority on canine nutrition.” pg 6 Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats NRC ” Cats originate from a family comprised only of strict carnivores (Felidae), whereas dogs are omnivorous.”

    Dogs are absolutely set up to consume carbohydrate. They have sweet receptors in their tongues. Hypercarnivores lack sweet receptors. There is no evolutionary pressure as hyper carnivores are not selecting and eating plant material. On the other hand sweet receptors are very functional and advantage to plant eaters. Sweet plant are generally safe to eat.

    Next you wrote “Dogs have no capacity to produce salivary amylase (the enzyme necessary to digest starches/sugars/carbohydrates) all omnivores possess.”

    Three parts to this statement “Dogs have no capacity to produce salivary amylase” But yet if you follow the literature salivary amylase is reported in the dog. And like humans the degree found is variable. So either the papers reporting it are wrong or the papers that report it doesn’t exist are wrong or maybe they are both right and depends on who you sample and how you sample. Really though it would be of little benefit as dogs don’t keep food in their mouths a long time before swallowing so it is rather immaterial if they have it or not

    Part 2 “(the enzyme necessary to digest starches/sugars/carbohydrates).. Amylase is only important for starch digestion. Simple sugars are handled differently.

    Part 3 “all omnivores possess. Where did you get this information from? Certainly not the scientific literature. Some omnivores have salivary amylase and some do not. Monkeys are omnivores. Old world monkeys have salivary amylase, New World Monkeys do not.

    You wrote “Dogs, in a trait that is unevenly distributed in the population, have acquired a capacity to produce amylase in their pancreas.” Goodness you make it sound like dog’s can barely squeak out a bit of amylase. They can easily make gobs of amylase. My past dog lost ~ 90 % of her pancreas and yet had no problems with digesting a high starch diet.

    You wrote “But producing pancreatic amylase is not the optimal or normal condition for dogs and –as mentioned–the capacity is highly variable.” Where do you get this “not optimal or normal” from? Please cite peer reviewed sources.

    You wrote ” To take a marginal capacity (that is a dog’s ability to produce enough pancreatic amylase) a push it to the maximum by feeding dogs highly unnatural carbohydrate-rich cereal-based diets puts tremendous strain on that organ. It is an assault on the pancreas. It sets up a dog to be sick. Often the precipitating event that leads to pancreatitis is the consumption (by a sickened dog) of a high-fat meal that it is unaccustomed to eating. This happens because the pancreas becomes conditioned to spilling the “wrong” digestive enzymes to metabolize fat and in the confusion, those “wrong” enzymes instead attack the tissues of the pancreas causing damage…..etc

    That simply is a fantasmical story conjured up by people with an agenda. Cite some peer reviewed papers that support this.. The pancreas has tremendous capacity for enzyme production and makes no sense to say that making lipase is a walk in the park but making amylase is “stressful” What would the mechanism be?

    Enzymes become confused?? Really?? Enzymes are very specific in what they can do.

    The rest of your “pancreas” story is more of the same..

    Let’s revisit your recognized authority on canine nutrition the NRC .. again you wrote “The NRC is the world’s recognized leading authority on canine nutrition.” If carbohydrates are as awful for dog as you claim they are certainly that information would be published by the “world’s recognized leading authority on canine nutrition”. Yet it is no where to be found
    in the 30 + odd pages on the digestibility and use of carbohydrates in the 2006 edition of Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats. There is no safe upper limit imposed by NRC on the incorporation of carbohydrate in canine diets ..but there is for fat

    Maybe a clue can be found in looking at their recommended levels for fat. Does the NRC recommend high fat levels for dogs? Actually no they do not. The NRC recommended amount of fat for an adult dog at maintenance ( as opposed to reproduction or growth) is 13.8 grams/1000kcals. Assuming 8.5 kcals/gram that is 117 kcals from fat for every 1000 kcals fed or 11.7% fat calories, far below what you recommend.

    Recommended amount of protein is 25 grams/1000 kcals, 3.5 X 25 =87.5grams/1000kcals or 8.7% protein calories. 11.7% recommended fat calories +8.7% protein calories =20.4% That leave a lot of room for a lot of carbohydrate : )

    Dogs are very flexible.

    As you recognize the NRC as “the world’s recognized leading authority on canine nutrition.” and I don’t disagree with you there, I’d advise you to pick up a copy of “Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats” and read it!

    #118202 Report Abuse

    Spy Car
    Member

    @aimee, thanks for the comedy routine. I got a good laugh.

    I read the NRC report. It says dogs have no essential need for carbohydrates. None!

    Zero. Zip. Nada.

    Every study ever conducted shows that dogs fed a high-carb diet have substantially less stamina and endurance than dogs eating a high-fat diet.

    Anyone with eyes can see the differences in the quality of teeth between dogs fed a PRM-style raw diet and dogs fed a standard kibble diet. The former leaves teeth clean and white vs the tartar and plaque stained teeth of kibble-fed dogs, 60% of whom develop periodontal disease.

    Nor can anyone with eyes fail to see the body type differences between PMR raw fed (zero calorie) dogs and those fed a high-carb diet.

    De-conditioning dogs via diet–which is what feeding high-carb diets do, as shown in the scientific veterinary evidence does–takes a huge toll on health and promotes obesity.

    As to pancreatic enzymes, of course the “enzymes” themselves are not “confused.” LOL. What happens is dogs become conditioned to releasing ratios of enzymes based on their diets. Kibble fed dogs release a lot of amylase.

    When such dogs have an unusually high-fat meal and their pancreas releases an amount of amylase that is excessive for that “meal” (instead of the lipase that works to digest fats) that excessive amylase destroys tissue in the pancreas.

    Interesting that id cats are recognized as carnivores the same pet food companies that produce cereal-based kibbles for dogs market similar formulas for cats. These companies exist to make profits not to serve pet health.

    High-carb diets rob dogs of their vitality. The are no advantages and plenty of downsides to such high-carb diets.

    Bill

    #118221 Report Abuse

    Spy Car
    Member

    Hey aimee, after digging I’ve found a grand total of one self-described “controversial” study that claims to contradict all the previous studies that show dogs produce no salivary amylase. This study claims salivary alpha-amylase can be detected. But seemingly in such microscopic amounts (my term) that it would have no practical bearing on a dog’s ability to digest starches. LOL.

    New World monkeys, like Spider Monkeys, appear not to be “omnivores” who thrive on grains and other starches but are in a sub-class of “frugivorous” animals who eat 80-90% ripe fruit (thus very simple sugars) in the wild, with most of the rest being seeds.

    When fed starches (like Monkey Chow) in captivity they tend to become obese, just like dogs fed who are fed kibble.

    Bill

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by  Spy Car.
    #118251 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi Spycar,

    Guess you just didn’t look deep enough if you only found one controversial study reporting salivary amylase in the dog. But as I said really I find it immaterial. Dogs don’t retain food in their mouths for long periods of time there would be no selective pressure to maintain it. It just seems silly to me that people trot out the dogs don’t have salivary amylase as a line in the sand type of thing as some studies report dogs have it and not all omnivores do.

    In regards to New World monkeys, who do not make salivary amylase, in the herbivore, omnivore, carnivore scheme they are classified as omnivores. It could be said that frugivore is a type of omnivore which is how wkipedia defines it “A frugivore /fruːdʒɪvɔːr/ is a fruit eater. It can be any type of herbivore or omnivore where fruit is a preferred food type.”

    But if you want to separate out the different feeding patterns than this descriptions should suit you better. This taken from an overview of the group “Diets also vary widely; some species are nearly completely folivorous (eating a diet of leaves), some are frugivores, and some are omnivores” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK232186/

    Overfeeding any macronutrient leads to obesity.

    Unfortunately your understanding of the pathophysiology of pancreatitis is incorrect. You wrote “excessive amylase destroys tissue in the pancreas.” Amylase breaks down bonds in starch.. starch is only found in plants. Amylase can not destroy the pancreas because the pancreas is not made of starch.

    Dogs don’t become deconditioned via diet. High fat diets support stamina because the cells are filled with fat, the fuel is readily available. If you are going for intensity (anaerobic)that is where carb comes in. Sled dogs, endurance, low intensity exercise do best with high fat diets. Sprinters.. do best with a diet that contains a fairly significant amount of carb.

    The activities that most people do with their dogs don’t fall into either extreme, racing greyhound vs endurance sled dog, and a balance of carb and fat is probably best. Dogs are very flexible in their requirements.

    P.S. Tooth crowns will be cleaner with chewing activity but oral health(periodontal disease) was found not to be different between dogs and cats eating a natural diet vs a commercial food

    #118627 Report Abuse

    Ryan K
    Member

    Hey everyone!
    I just wanted to give an update on my dog. He has been on Nulo Turkey & Sweet Potato now for about two weeks and he seems to be doing well. He actually eats it! It has 33% Protein and 18% Fat. I do wish the fat content was higher but for now it’s working out. He finds it palatable and he has not eaten weeds to throw up in 2 weeks now which is HUGE! His stool is solid and well shaped. He seems to have more energy. I am adding a Nulo wet chicken & greenbeans pouch to the dry food once a day to get him going but he still grazes and eats off and on like he used to with the food just sitting dry which is a big deal to me since he had stopped doing that completely. This food seems to taste really good to him and it looks like it’s a great food. I’m very happy with it! Had to check in and update that. If he starts showing any discomfort again I will definitely get him back to my vet for the thyroid testing and possibly some ultrasounds. Thanks for all the ideas everyone!

    #119375 Report Abuse

    William D
    Member

    I feed my ladies the raw dog diet

    ______________________________________________________________
    There are no solved problems; there are only problems that are more or less solved.
    All the best,William [url=https://diceus.com/]Diceus[/url]

    • This reply was modified 1 year ago by  William D.
    #119437 Report Abuse

    Patricia A
    Member

    That’s great news Ryan. So happy you found a food he enjoys and is not causing any stomach upset. What a relief for you and him. Advisor gave dog food 5 stars also. Thank’s for the update.

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