[Cyndi]

I wish your vet was closer to me. I can’t find a good vet that agrees with raw feeding. Except the quack I saw a couple years ago, but I ain’t going back to her, lol!

[DogFoodie]

Oh Cyndi! My vet gets on my case when I see her if I’m NOT feeding raw at the moment! 🙂

[Cyndi]

Yes, thanks for your input, even though it’s wrong. A balanced raw diet is the best you can feed your dog, and I will continue to do so and NOT listen to my vet because most of them don’t know a damn thing about nutrition.

[SkeptVet]

“As far as I know, salmonella isn’t dangerous to dogs, only humans.”
Not true:

Yes, dogs can get salmonellosis

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24277916
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC339295/

“I wouldn’t bother asking your vet; chances are he will tell you not to feed raw, which is wrong IMO. Vets get very little education in nutrition.”
So you shouldn’t ask a medical professional for advice if it is likely you will disagree with that advice? Do most pet owners have more “education in nutrition” than vets, or just opinions gleaned from the internet and some books they’ve read? Of course, some like to discount the education vets do have as mere food industry propaganda and the alternative information on the internet as somehow more independent and legitimate, but that’s merely an excuse for dismissing an opinion they don’t like.

What do Veterinarians Know About Nutrition?

[Anonymous]

What you describe sounds like environmental allergies which are more common than food allergies/intolerances. Environmental allergies tend to wax and wane, they get worse as the dog gets older.
I had excellent results after taking my dog to a dermatologist/specialist for skin testing. If the dog is really uncomfortable you may want to start there. I wasted a lot of time going back and forth to the regular vet, trying all kinds of different diets etc
Frequent bathing with Malaseb or GNC Antifungal shampoo for dogs does seem to help in conjunction with other treatments. Nutrisca salmon and chickpea kibble agrees with her the best.
If you go to the home/forums page here and use the search engine to look up allergies, you will find a ton of posts regarding pet owners going through the same thing.

Helpful article below:
By Klaus Loft, DVM
Angell Dermatology Service

Anyone who suffers debilitating environmental allergies tied to changing seasons, pet dander or household dust mites knows first-hand the misery of a scratchy throat, itchy eyes or painful rashes.

Not everyone knows, however, that our pets can experience similar allergic reactions — and other very bothersome dermatological issues. But our pets need not suffer in silence. Modern veterinary science has evolved such that advanced, comprehensive treatments are now available to treat a range of skin conditions.

Top pet dermatological issues

Our four-legged friends suffer from some of the same skin issues as we do — and several that we do not. The most common conditions we see at Angell include:

•Parasites, such as mites, fleas and mange (scabies)
•Infectious diseases, such as Staphylococcal pyoderma (“Staph”) skin infections, yeast and fungal infections and skin fold infections
•Systemic diseases, such as autoimmune diseases
•Skin cancer, such as Squamous cell carcinoma, cutaneous lymphoma, Mast cell tumors
•Allergies, such as flea allergy dermatitis, adverse food reactions, environmental allergies, etc.

All of these conditions can become serious and, if untreated, dramatically reduce quality of life. But the tremendous strides made in veterinary innovation, however, is very good news for our pets. Specifically, the testing and treatments for allergies now rivals human healthcare in its sophistication, quality of care and long-term health outcomes.

Unlike humans, dogs and cats cannot tell us about their dermatological health issues. So we as pet owners must look for the signs. The most common indicators that a pet is suffering from some kind of allergy involve frequent episodes of ear infections, red raised or open sores on the skin, constant licking or biting of paws or groin — sometimes causing wounds that will not go away.

Allergies present a particular challenge because there can be hundreds (even thousands) of potential allergens that impact pet health, from foods to pollen from grasses, weeds, trees, dust mites and more. Today’s specialty veterinary hospitals have access to the very latest diagnostic tests to get to the bottom of what’s ailing our pet. Among these tests is the Intra Dermal Test (IDT).

IDT is generally considered the gold standard of testing for identifying allergens that cause pets to suffer from chronic skin and/or ear diseases. IDT involves injections of a series of concentrated allergens into the skin to determine which of them generate allergic reactions in a given animal. The use of fluorescein — a chemical that illuminates the inflammation caused by the injected allergens in order to visualize the strength of individual reactions — is key to accurately diagnosing pet allergies, and is just one of the many ways veterinarians use new technologies to improve care and diagnostics.

The results of IDT (as well as a review of the pet’s medical history) can then inform comprehensive immunotherapy treatments to relieve suffering. Veterinary dermatologists rely on IDT to build customized treatment plans for patients called Allergen Specific Immuno Therapy or “ASIT” for short.

ASIT involves a series of injections specifically created for the allergic animal’s skin. These injections, of diluted allergens, are designed to make a pet less sensitive to their allergens over time. In most cases these injections must be continued for life to reduce symptoms, but they are highly effective. Seventy to 90 percent of pets experience a reduction in symptoms as a result of ASIT treatment. These treatments can be delivered even more easily via droplets under the tongue, perfect for pet owners who are squeamish about giving injections to their pet.

This treatment is very new to the North American field of medicine (both human and veterinary) and underscores just how far innovation in veterinary medicine has come.

When it’s time to see the vet

Many pet owners are understandably concerned about taking their animals to the veterinarian because the cost (to say nothing of the fear some animals experience when going do the doctor) may outweigh any perceived reduction in suffering. To help pet owners know when it’s time to bring Fido to the doctor I’ve compiled my “Top Ten” list of dermatological symptoms that should never be ignored:

•Intense itching of the skin (head shaking, running the face into the carpet, furniture, etc.)
•Biting at the skin that creates red, raw crusting areas of the skin
•Multiple ear infections (head shaking, odor from ears, scratching at the ears with hind legs)
•Paw licking or chewing and frequent infections of the skin in the webbed skin of the paws
•Staining of the fur of the paws and nails on multiple feet
•Reoccurring skin infections in the groin, under the shoulders, perianal areas (on or under the tail)
•Greasy scaling skin and/or fur with odorous skin
•Hair loss, or thinning of the fur
•Dark pigmentation of the skin that is chronically infected
•Sudden depigmentation of skin

Allergies and other dermatological issues can be as frustrating for pet owners and their veterinarians as they can be for pets. I encourage any pet owner whose animal is experiencing any of these symptoms to consult with their veterinarian.

[Susan]

Hi re-start the raw diet again, an elimination diet, just feed 1 protein, a meat he hasn’t eaten before & stick with green veggies, broccoli, celery, bok choy, beans etc these veggies must be blended in a blender made into a pulp, I stop the blender just before the veggies are liquid… dogs cant digest raw veggies like us, we chew our food, where dogs just swallow & don’t break down the veggies, that’s why you see corn or carrot in their poo…here’s the maintenance diet my boy was put on thru a Animal Naturopath if you scroll down there’s a Allergy diet…I had to pick 1 protein, 2-4 veggies & 1-2 fruits, I picked kangaroo mince, broccoli, celery, carrot & a apple, to start with, peel all veggies cut up then put thru a mini processor….I feed 1 cup meat & 2 spoons of the blended veggie/fruit mix 1/2 capsule probiotic dairy free, 1/2 capsule digestive enzyme added to the meal…then later you can add fish oil capsule
… I froze the left over veggie/fruit mix in 2 spoon sections & was told don’t mix thru the meat & freeze, freeze separate & just take out the night before, my boy weights 37lb so he was eating 1 cup Kangaroo & 2 spoons veggie/fruit mix for breakfast & the same for dinner… I’d stop the egg & chicken, my boy got red hot paws after trying chicken & egg, that’s why its best you add just 1 new food a week, so you will know what food he is reacting too…. http://www.naturalanimalsolutions.com.au/natural-diet.html
for the rash I bath in Malaseb medicated shampoo every 5-7 days while they have the rash or itch & you leave shampoo on for 5-10mins the Malaseb relieves the skin….

[Anonymous]

You didn’t mention how old your dog is? What you describe sounds like environmental allergies which are more common than food allergies/intolerances. Environmental allergies tend to wax and wane, they get worse as the dog gets older.
I had excellent results after taking my dog to a dermatologist/specialist for skin testing. If the dog is really uncomfortable you may want to start there. I wasted a lot of time going back and forth to the regular vet, trying all kinds of different diets etc, frequent bathing with Malaseb or GNC Antifungal shampoo for dogs does seem to help in conjunction with other treatments.
If you go to the home/forums page here and use the search engine to look up allergies, you will find a ton of posts regarding pet owners going through the same thing.

Helpful article below:
By Klaus Loft, DVM
Angell Dermatology Service

Anyone who suffers debilitating environmental allergies tied to changing seasons, pet dander or household dust mites knows first-hand the misery of a scratchy throat, itchy eyes or painful rashes.

Not everyone knows, however, that our pets can experience similar allergic reactions — and other very bothersome dermatological issues. But our pets need not suffer in silence. Modern veterinary science has evolved such that advanced, comprehensive treatments are now available to treat a range of skin conditions.

Top pet dermatological issues

Our four-legged friends suffer from some of the same skin issues as we do — and several that we do not. The most common conditions we see at Angell include:

•Parasites, such as mites, fleas and mange (scabies)
•Infectious diseases, such as Staphylococcal pyoderma (“Staph”) skin infections, yeast and fungal infections and skin fold infections
•Systemic diseases, such as autoimmune diseases
•Skin cancer, such as Squamous cell carcinoma, cutaneous lymphoma, Mast cell tumors
•Allergies, such as flea allergy dermatitis, adverse food reactions, environmental allergies, etc.

All of these conditions can become serious and, if untreated, dramatically reduce quality of life. But the tremendous strides made in veterinary innovation, however, is very good news for our pets. Specifically, the testing and treatments for allergies now rivals human healthcare in its sophistication, quality of care and long-term health outcomes.

Unlike humans, dogs and cats cannot tell us about their dermatological health issues. So we as pet owners must look for the signs. The most common indicators that a pet is suffering from some kind of allergy involve frequent episodes of ear infections, red raised or open sores on the skin, constant licking or biting of paws or groin — sometimes causing wounds that will not go away.

Allergies present a particular challenge because there can be hundreds (even thousands) of potential allergens that impact pet health, from foods to pollen from grasses, weeds, trees, dust mites and more. Today’s specialty veterinary hospitals have access to the very latest diagnostic tests to get to the bottom of what’s ailing our pet. Among these tests is the Intra Dermal Test (IDT).

IDT is generally considered the gold standard of testing for identifying allergens that cause pets to suffer from chronic skin and/or ear diseases. IDT involves injections of a series of concentrated allergens into the skin to determine which of them generate allergic reactions in a given animal. The use of fluorescein — a chemical that illuminates the inflammation caused by the injected allergens in order to visualize the strength of individual reactions — is key to accurately diagnosing pet allergies, and is just one of the many ways veterinarians use new technologies to improve care and diagnostics.

The results of IDT (as well as a review of the pet’s medical history) can then inform comprehensive immunotherapy treatments to relieve suffering. Veterinary dermatologists rely on IDT to build customized treatment plans for patients called Allergen Specific Immuno Therapy or “ASIT” for short.

ASIT involves a series of injections specifically created for the allergic animal’s skin. These injections, of diluted allergens, are designed to make a pet less sensitive to their allergens over time. In most cases these injections must be continued for life to reduce symptoms, but they are highly effective. Seventy to 90 percent of pets experience a reduction in symptoms as a result of ASIT treatment. These treatments can be delivered even more easily via droplets under the tongue, perfect for pet owners who are squeamish about giving injections to their pet.

This treatment is very new to the North American field of medicine (both human and veterinary) and underscores just how far innovation in veterinary medicine has come.

When it’s time to see the vet

Many pet owners are understandably concerned about taking their animals to the veterinarian because the cost (to say nothing of the fear some animals experience when going do the doctor) may outweigh any perceived reduction in suffering. To help pet owners know when it’s time to bring Fido to the doctor I’ve compiled my “Top Ten” list of dermatological symptoms that should never be ignored:

•Intense itching of the skin (head shaking, running the face into the carpet, furniture, etc.)
•Biting at the skin that creates red, raw crusting areas of the skin
•Multiple ear infections (head shaking, odor from ears, scratching at the ears with hind legs)
•Paw licking or chewing and frequent infections of the skin in the webbed skin of the paws
•Staining of the fur of the paws and nails on multiple feet
•Reoccurring skin infections in the groin, under the shoulders, perianal areas (on or under the tail)
•Greasy scaling skin and/or fur with odorous skin
•Hair loss, or thinning of the fur
•Dark pigmentation of the skin that is chronically infected
•Sudden depigmentation of skin

Allergies and other dermatological issues can be as frustrating for pet owners and their veterinarians as they can be for pets. I encourage any pet owner whose animal is experiencing any of these symptoms to consult with their veterinarian.

[Smokey Dog]

We’ve had our dog a week and have been trying to transition him into a partially raw diet. I have fed him chicken, eggs, yogurt, spinach, and BLUE dog kibble the last couple days. He has had an allergic reaction, but I’m not sure if it’s from something in the grass in the backyard or because of his food. He doesn’t itch that much but he has small to large red spots on his paws, stomach, and ears. We thought it was going away, until last night when he seemed to have an especially bad reaction to something (I had recently fed him part of a raw Perdue chicken). Could anyone give me some advice?

(PS he also hasn’t had solid stool since we got him, but I’m not sure if that’s just because he is transitioning from one food to a different type of food)

[Smokey Dog]

We’ve had our dog a week and have been trying to transition him into a partially raw diet. I have fed him chicken, eggs, yogurt, spinach, and BLUE dog kibble the last couple days. He has had an allergic reaction, but I’m not sure if it’s from something in the grass in the backyard or because of his food. He doesn’t itch that much but he has small to large red spots on his paws, stomach, and ears. We thought it was going away, until last night when he seemed to have an especially bad reaction to something (I had recently fed him part of a Perdue chicken). Could anyone give me some advice?

(PS he also hasn’t had solid stool since we got him, but I’m not sure if that’s just because he is transitioning from one food to a different type of food)

[Smokey Dog]

We’ve had our dog a week and have been trying to transition him into a partially raw diet. I have fed him chicken, eggs, yogurt, spinach, and BLUE dog kibble the last couple days. He has had an allergic reaction, but I’m not sure if it’s from something in the grass in the backyard or because of his food. He doesn’t itch that much but he has small to large red spots on his paws, stomach, and ears. We thought it was going away, until last night when he seemed to have an especially bad reaction to something (I had recently fed him part of a Perdue chicken). Could anyone give me some advice?

[Smokey Dog]

I have a pit mix who I recently adopted and have a couple questions about going raw. Lately I have been feeding him one part BLUE salmon kibble, to one part raw chicken. I also have been including 2 eggs, yogurt, and spinach to some of his kibble. I cannot afford anything more expensive than chicken for another month or two, so will my dog be able to thrive on a half raw diet that is mostly chicken? Also, he has had some problems with his stool, and I was reading that some dogs do not react well to too much yogurt and raw spinach. Is that true/common?

[zcRiley]

ZiwiPeak Lamb formula, raw dehydrated. Requires no mixing or freezing. Has zero fillers, balanced vitamins.

[Cheryl F]

I just was able to contact a local butcher who supplies USDA meats for human consumption. They are also offering quite a number of items that I already feed my dogs, that I have to pay shipping/packaging for and has greatly increased the costs for me. Being able to buy fresh meat from a local butcher means that not only am I getting very good quality food, but also that I’m not being charged for additional packaging or shipping is a huge bonus. We will now be able to trim our monthly costs for feeding our animals (4 medium sized dogs) from $500./month to about $200-250./month.

For the specialty grinds such as green tripe, trachea and gullet, chicken w/organ meat, beef w/organ meat – i will still purchase from online shops.

By having a local butcher means that I can control how much food i have to store by not needing to order in bulk to offset shipping charges, and having a readily available stock local that I can drive to replenish my supply.

Sharon B – my vet’s office has several vets employed there. When I was on a business trip my husband took our puppy in for routine puppy care exam and the vet tried to scare my husband about ecoli and salmonella with the raw diet. Fact is, humans get those issues a LOT more than dogs can. Their stomachs are stronger than ours and we are more susceptible than them. Employing good hygiene and common sense is a must when handling any meat – whether it be for human or canine consumption. None of my dogs have ever gotten salmonella or ecoli from raw diet and i have ‘collectively’ been feeding this way for about 12 years.

Hope that helps.

Cheryl

[Marta W]

Mary we’ve been or raw for a month this week, so maybe she could have new protein.
i am thinking beef or pork mixes. Also i was going to get her turkey necks separate.

DO you know if feeding that is all she needs or should i give her some supplements?
RIght now her food has veggies mixed in but she wont have that with Pawfectly Raw.

[InkedMarie]

the ones under the “protein” link are grinds that contain bone. I told her that I thought she should have “bone” listed to make it easier.
No, I had no trouble ordering. I feed the grinds with bone but I also feed duck necks (getting a case of those from Pawfectly).

how long has your dog been on chicken? My “raw guru” who helps me said to go a month on one protein (or as close to a month as you can) then try another protein. Dogs should have more red meat than poultry: beef, venison, lamb, pork (in this case, it’s not the other white meat LOL) etc.

[Dori]

I have three toy dogs. Maltese, Maltipoo and a Yorkipoo. I have been feeding them commercial raw frozen diets for the past 4 years and are all doing phenomenally well. I feed twice a day each getting between 2.5 & 3 % of their weight broken up into two meals. I use a cheap digital kitchen scale that I bought on Amazon. For treats I give them bits of fruits and veggies. No pits or seeds in anything, please. I don’t feed any grains, soy, corn, potatoes, rice or poultry (one of my girls is intolerant of all fowl). I feed all three high protein, moderate to high quality fats and low carbs. Oh, for size comparison, Maltese weighs 7.3 lbs., Maltipoo weighs 6 lbs. and my Yorkipoo weighs 5 lbs. Keep in mind that when you feed commercial frozen raws though initially they may seem expensive, you feed less than when feeding kibble. My soon to be 16 years old Maltese acts like she’s more like 6 or 7 years old. The other two are 6 years old and think they are still 2 year olds and act like it too. Which is a good thing. Also keep in mind the savings that you get also from not being at the vet everytime you turn around with some ailment or other. My two 6 year olds go once a year for physicals and my almost 16 year old goes every 6 months for senior blood work and physicals.

[Alasdair D]

Hi Sharon,

Thanks for the input – the information on flax seed is new to me. I don’t grind them myself and I hadn’t read previously that there would be no benefit if they weren’t freshly milled. I use them for a source of Omega 3, but may have to rethink if pre milled has no benefit. I do feed the girls sardines once a week, so they get plenty of fish oil anyway.

As for the chicken mince, I am lucky in that I have a poultry company nearby and am also friends with our local butcher. So they will just grind up chicken carcasses and add a bit of offal for me. I normally get about 50lbs at a time and they will freeze it in bulk then band saw it into 1lb chunks that I store in the freezer.

In terms of cost, this is pretty cheap for me – it costs less than £4 a day to feed both dogs raw and they are pretty big dogs. Mind you, deerhounds are very lean and don’t really eat a huge amount anyway. ( I am in the UK, so that may be expensive for you, but it’s cheaper than a good quality kibble here)

Personally, I don’t use any kibble at all. Just the raw food, plus some table scraps and even with the scraps I pretty much give them just the protein and fats with very little carbohydrates.

[gigi s]

I too have 2 Coton De Tulears. One is 11 and the other is 3 months old. The older dog eats, Ziwi Peak and Archetype burgers and Natures Instinct raw and boiled chicken

The puppy came with food from the breeder – all natures instinct. I am cutting out the freeze dried kibble and just giving her the Natures Instint frozen raw Chicken or Lamb mixed with Flee Free and vitamins and a little fresh boiled chicken and a few Ziwi peak pieces to introduce her to that brand.

They also get other vitamins and buly sticks and Bravo freeze died turkey hearts and venison liver and chicken breast and turkey breasts

What do you think?

[InkedMarie]

Sharon,
PawfectlyRawNE.com is up & running; I placed my first order thru them last week.

I don’t grind my own, I’m too lazy and most grinders that you can buy can’t grind beef bones.

There have been more problems for salmonella in kibble. Do you or have you ever eaten meat for yourself or prepare meat for your family? Raw dog food is just meat. If you touch meat, this is no different. I feed grinds so I don’t touch it, I use a spoon.

I can’t afford all grass fed meat for us and can’t do it for the dog, not all the time. If you buy your dogs kibble, dehydrated, cannned, etc it’s not the “good stuff”. IMO you do the best you can. I feed a combo of grinds from Pawfectly (well, I will soon!), Reel Raw and Hare Today.

[sharon b]

Inked Marie, sorry, I am in Windham NH, and Vincent, and the other Gentleman, can’t see your name, I can’t get a list of prices either. Website still being built, If you could e-mail or forward, I would greatly be appreciated @ sbmc64@yahoo.com.
Has anyone ever had a dog get really sick, or die from salmonella or e-coli? I read a thread where a man lost his 9 $ 1/2 y/o dog. I have a weak immune system and although I will glove up, I am a little concerned. Also mentioned on a thread for advice on my raw diet, For those of you that do your own grinding, how? Do you have a special grinder? My pup is going to be 150+ pounds, so this is not going to be inexpensive, but I know it’s the best for him. just trying to find the most economical way. What about hormones in store meat, does that concern anyone, or do commercial companies avoid them, or do we not know. Darwin’s did list a grass fed price list. Sorry, so many questions from the newbie.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by sharon b.

[sharon b]

switched thread to advice on my raw diet

[sharon b]

Following! I started a thread on raw for large breeds but have not seen any recent comments. I thought I was mixing raw in their kibble, an 8 y/o husky and a 6 m/o Newf, only to find out the package “Vital Raw” is misleading and not Raw. I was going to just switch to raw as my pup has an ongoing infection when I read on another link of a man losing his 9 & 1/2 y/o Pitbull to I believe it was e-coli from chicken, but may have been salmonella, so decided to wait and see how others weigh in on this. It does not seem this has been an issue for others. I did want to ask a bit about the supplements though as others recommended omega 3’s and salmon oil’s for mine, but you mentioned flax seeds. Do you grind those daily and add them? Just a comment about flax seeds, as they are only active the day you do that, as they oxidize and then are of no benefit otherwise, including all the gel-tab’s etc. The market has us fooled, I am an R.Ph and learned that in an continuing Ed, only helpful w/ husks off for a couple hours.
Because my dogs are so big this seems like a very expensive way to go, even though I know it’s healthier. Does anyone do kibble in the AM, and Raw in PM? What about all the hormones in the meat from grocery stores? All concerns of mine.
Also for those of you that grind, how? Do you have a special grinder that does the bones? Trying to figure the most economical way to do this?

[Dina H]

My dogs love this company’s food…I use the beef with tripe HVM (healthy variety mix), pork HVM, lamb HVM, duck HVM, chicken hvm. They love it all but esp the beef with tripe. I pick up my monthly supply in Quakertown and I know that they deliver to New England and New Jersey as well.

I will also use the Honest Kitchen dehydrated mix called Kindly and add this to their food…soak it well for 20 min to rehydrate and then I mix the raw with the Kindly. That product has the following ingredients and it is the only dog food out there that is HUMAN grade:

“Dehydrated carrots, organic flaxseed, dehydrated parsnips, dehydrated peas, dehydrated celery, dried organic coconut, dehydrated pumpkin, dehydrated chard, dehydrated organic kelp, dried marjoram, dried garlic, tricalcium phosphate, choline chloride, zinc amino acid chelate, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, potassium iodide, potassium chloride, iron amino acid chelate, copper amino acid chelate, thiamine mononitrate.”

[Dina H]

If you google ‘youtube dr karen becker raw’ you will find a 3 part series on raw food feeding….very very good. answers many questions.

[Keven J]

Hello I have come to this forum after researching the best diet for my new french bulldog. Currently she is eating “Instinct Ultimate Protein” dry kibble which seems to be one of the better kibbles available.
I would like to introduce her to a raw diet. Located in Ontario, Canada we have Big Country Raw Diet available and would appreciate your opinions.
My other option and the one I would like to research the most is preparing my own raw diet from intact broiler chickens which I have available free of charge. Could anybody provide insight as to the procedure (meat grinder, removing intestines/feathers, packaging, adding additional ingredients, act).
Thanks in advance and I am really looking forward to providing the best diet possible.

[Cotons mom]

I have 2 cotons both 1-1/2 years old. I only feed raw to both of them and have found out that a total of 1/2 cup of food per day per day is all they need (1/4 per meal for each). They are at a great weight, happy and have beautiful teeth.

Just remember to slowly convert your new dog to whatever you do decide to feed him/her.

If you feed kibble see what size kibble he is being fed now and maybe you can use this as a guide to what he will be able to handle down the road.

[DogFoodie]

My Cavalier can eat virtually anything. She loves raw and does very well on a high protein, moderate fat diet with a bit higher fiber. That’s my toy breed though – yours could very well be different. When she eats kibble, I try to choose those that are smaller pieces. Although she eats Orijen, which is one of the biggest, with no problem. You can always give dry food a whirl in a coffee grinder if you want to make it smaller. The great thing is, it’s a bit easier to feed them higher quality foods because they eat such small portions. Just be careful, because it’s very easy to overfeed a small dog. There’s much less room for error when you’re only eating 300-some calories per day.

[Pitlove]

Fantastic! Your boy will tell you in his own way if the food does not agree with him. My dog did it to me when I was only feeding him kibble and he refused to eat until I added canned food to it. Canned is the next best thing to raw if you can’t feed raw. Now he eats no problem.

Also keep in mind that it is becoming widely known that many traditional vet’s do not have extensive training on up to date dog nutrition. I would say your vet is old school and might have not brushed up on current studies, research and literature about canine diet.

[InkedMarie]

As far as I know, salmonella isn’t dangerous to dogs, only humans. I wouldn’t bother asking your vet; chances are he will tell you not to feed raw, which is wrong IMO. Vets get very little education in nutrition.

[Pitlove]

Dog Foodie and Aimee thank you for your input.

Aimee- I have seen Vet’s like Dr. Becker say that carbs because they break down into sugar is what the yeast feeds off of. I’ve heard other people say that and then I’m hearing people say no it’s not that. There is so much information out there that contridicts one another that I’m finding myself stressed and confused.

Dog Foodie- I got what you were saying haha. As I said, I really disagree with my current vet that it is food related, but I am willing to try a food like Wysong to see if it makes a difference. I also think that I slacked on cleaning his ears regularly and that also contributed to the yeast build up. My current vet was saying that in her experience dogs do not start showing symptoms of allergies until 1 year of age, but down in LA she is finding they are showing them sooner because of the climate.

We are using Gain and Borox to clean his bedding. I started with the Borox because we had fleas. Those are just about gone, but they torn him up so bad he had scabs and is now missing hair in the spots that the scabs are falling off and his skin is flaky in those areas. I have an anti-funal shampoo from the vet that we have been bathing him in. When we were doing foot soaks for his yeasty feet it cleared it up very fast, but she said he has some yeast build up under his nail beds again, so we are going to re-start the foot soaks.

As for the raw, my boyfriend can be a stubborn jerk. He said to me “if you’re not going to cook for me, you’re not cooking for the dog”. Not that it would be cooking anyway more like thawing lol. Also I have yet to price it out and determine whether I would be paying more or less than what I’m currently spending on food. I am the one who feeds both him and the cat soley. He eats kibble and canned right now and the cat eats all canned. I do have some THK for him, but it’s grain-inclusive and he wasn’t super into it. He ate it, but he would walk away and come back which isn’t normal for him now.

I plan to give the Wysong a try and see if there is improvement by the time the food is gone. If not then I know it’s not the food. I’m also going to be a lot more aware of cleaning his ears and keeping up on it and soaking his feet. The yeast is not all over his body thankfully. It’s his nail beds and ears.

[DogFoodie]

Wysong Epigen is good product, Pitlove. It’s worth a try, but it also quite possibly not food related.

That said, I have a Golden whose seasonal allergies became very apparent to me this spring. He was eating a particular food that he’s always done great on when seemingly out of nowhere, he had yeast infections in both ears. He does have food intolerance issues also, and in the past, when he’s reacted to foods, he’s had the same type of reaction which resulted in yeast infections in his ears – usually his right ear. But, this year, I was able to relate the timing of the onset of his symptoms to seasonal environmental changes. Looking back, it happened the same time last year. I was starting him on Springtime’s Bug Off Garlic and I attributed his ear infections to him reacting to that. I’m still not certain whether or not he’s intolerant of garlic.

One thing I did that seemed to help was to add Quercetin with Bromelain, Papain and an Omega 3 supplement to help the scratching. I could tell a difference. My dogs allergies have improved as the particular pollen season that seemed to affect him the most has decreased a bit. We’re still not in the clear, but I’m formulating my strategy for next spring.

Another thing you might consider doing is preparing a rinse of diluted white vinegar. Use it to clean his feet and wipe off his legs and belt with it every time he comes in from outside. Vacuum frequently. Keep indoor cleaning products simple and natural. The sensitivity could also be to products in your home; ie: cleaning products, new carpet, bedding, etc.

A raw diet would be great, but it’s OK if you’re able to do it currently. Since you’re interested, talk to your boyfriend and find out why he feels uneasy about it. Would he be feeding your pup at times? Maybe you could assume sole responsibility of feeding him if your boyfriend is uneasy about it. Also, half raw is better than none. Maybe you could try a commercial raw – that’s sometimes easier to stomach for queasy feeders. It’s also agreat way to be sure you’re getting balanced meals. A dehydrated food like The Honest Kitchen would also be less processed than kibble. I’d probably choose a grain free one like Zeal. Raw isn’t for everyone. My Golden isn’t a fan of raw, unless it’s tripe, which he eats eagerly. Another option would be canned food.

Allergy testing is notoriously inaccurate. I actually had a hair and saliva test recently that tests samples using biofeedback energy. The test was affordable for me, but I’m struggling to make sense of the results. My integrative vet and I were discussing another test, Dr. Jean Dodds, NutriScan test as likely being the most reliable, but still limited in scope and possibly accuracy. So, you’re better off with an elimination diet for food intolerance issues and developing a strategy for dealing with your pup’s environmental sensitivities.

There was someone here who was feeling with an issue with a food the same breed as yours and she ended up figuring out that it was a specific new detergent she was using. She stooped using the detergent and the symptoms disappeared. She had started using Gain lavender. She and her pup went through h*ll until she figured it out.

I know how frustrating it can be. There’s an awful lot of us here dealing with similar issues. You’re not alone! Good luck!

[Anonymous]

The SkeptVet recommends this book, see below excerpt from a post response:

More Evidence of the Risk of Infectious Diseases Associated with Raw Pet Foods

“As for what people should feed, I have recommended and reviewed the book Dog Food Logic, which is all about this, so I encourage everyone interested in thinking about what to feed their pets to read this. I think the AAFCO standards pretty clearly prevent obvious deficiency or excess disorders. I think there is good evidence for some dietary therapies aimed at specific health problems (such as special diets for animals with kidney disease). I don’t think a strong, universal generalization about what is best for all dogs, all cats, etc. is possible or reasonable. And I don’t think anyone knows what the optimal diet for any individual pet is because the interaction between nutrition and health is complex”

[Pitlove]

Interesting, so that link about 7 facts of dog odor is saying that startch and grains have nothing to do with yeast overgrowth. Now i’m really confused because I thought they did. I can’t put my guy on raw right now. My boyfriend will not let me. Not really sure why but he’s just not ok with it. I want to try Wysong Epigen for him. Any thoughts on that?

[sharon b]

I also am more confused than ever. I have another thread going on starting to feed large breeds raw. Also not only concerned about the pathogen’s that I would think if buying commercially would be at minimal risk, I would think that dogs in general would have the enzymes in their GI systems (that humans do not) to kill these serious bacteria?? But I read one article where a man lost his 9 & 1/2 y/o dog after twice taking him to the vet and the e-coli didn’t come up on routine test’s because they don’t test the GI tract.
Also of concern to me is I myself have a very weak immune system, but want what is best for my dogs, so could wear gloves, but what about where they walk, lick, one is a drooler??? Can’t control all aspects of it just with gloves. Think I will also get this book on my kindle.

[Susan]

Hi Pitlove, your vet is on the right track about the potatoes high starch diet, but she hasn’t explain it properly, I would try a hypoallergenic limited ingredient kibble without potatoes, peas, lentils, sweet potatoes etc cause what she has been eating has caused the yeasty paws, also Malaseb medicated shampoo is excellent for this.. bathed every 5-7 days, I was putting the Malaseb just on Patches paws in a empty bath & leaving it on for 5mins then rinsing off the Malaseb kills the bacteria & really helped..
here’s a link to Karen Helton Rhodes face book group called “Canine Skin Solutions group” https://www.facebook.com/groups/1563654607200747/
here is the link explaining overgrowth Malassezia from food allergies (CARF) read #4, it will explain things more..
http://www.healthyskin4dogs.com/blog/2015/6/21/why-does-my-dog-stink-7-facts-about-dog-odor-you-need-to-know
I found as soon as I put Patch on a raw elimination diet, the red paws, smelly feet, went away…this is the diet Patch was put on you need to scroll down & click on Skin Allergy diet & just pick 1 protein 2-3-veggies & 1-2- fruits, I picked broccoli, celery, carrot & apple all peeled then cut up then put thru a mini processer ..1 cup of meat & 2 spoons of the blended veggie/fruit mix.. I had to add digestive enzyme, probiotic & digestaVite Plus to balance the diet but the Naturopath said he would be Ok without the DigestaVite Plus for 1-2 months while we were doing the elimination raw diet, I wasn’t adding no organ meat yet or no bone cause of his IBD.. with yeast you need to feed green veggies, broccoli, Bok Choy, Zucchini, Celery etc & stay away from the starchy veggies if you decide to feed a raw diet … http://www.naturalanimalsolutions.com.au/natural-diet.html

[EVAN H]

Trainers telling me that they can feed raw chicken with the bones intact to large breed dogs and that the dogs don’t seem to be susceptible to salmonella..AND YET…I just now got an email alert from this website here saying some turkey sprinkles was being recalled due to salmonella…

?????? opinions/ actually would prefer some facts??

tks

[Susan]

Hi Michelle, I’ve been going through the same thing for about 1 year now, finally had a Endoscope & Biopsies done, I thought Patch had an ulcer but thru biopsies they found Helicobacter-Pylori infection & IBD (Food Intolerances).. Patch was treated with antibiotics Metronidazole Amoxicillin & Zantac for 3 weeks, The Helicobacter is very hard to get rid of & Patch suffers bad acid reflux when the Helicobacter come back. I’m picking up a script today for Losec (omeprazole) cause the Zantac isn’t working anymore…

Low fat diet makes a big difference…You need to find a low fat foods….Fat makes the acid reflux worse, if you can feed a cooked diet is best…try & stay away from kibbles, I found kibbles can make the acid reflux worse so what I do cause I can’t find a real low fat wet tin food with 2% fat & under, I soak his limited ingredient low fat-10% kibble in water then when the kibble is swollen, I drain the water very well then I put thru a blender mini processor & the kibble comes like wet tin food & I have the low 10% fat & I’ve been cooking, I buy Extra lean beef ground mince & add blended broccoli, celery, carrot with the mince then bake in the oven, I make mini meat loaves or rissoles..you get to know the good low fat grounded mince hardly any fat will come out while the meat loaf or rissoles are baking..
About 2 months ago I went thru a animal Naturopath & she said Patch needs to heal his stomach & get the stomach pH back at 1%… Patch was put on a low fat raw Kangaroo mince & blended broccoli celery, carrot & apple, 2 spoons to 1 cup of the kangaroo mince + Digestive Enzymes + Probiotic, the raw worked excellent then he started regurgitating the raw, water kept coming up into his mouth causing real sore throat from the acid coming up into his mouth… he also regurgitates the cooked meat if its real dry sometimes.. soaked kibble seems to work the best for Patch….also I give liquid Mylanta 3mls when I see him swallowing & uncomfortable with his acid reflux the Mylanta helps straight away…

Good-Luck, I hope lowing the fat works for your boy, my boy is a rescue & I’d say he was left untreated for tooo long, I got him at the age of 4..

Have a looked at the “Canine Caviar Special Needs” the fat is 9%min the protein is low but you can add your own meat toppers if the kibble works.. another good one is the “California Natural Lamb & Rice” it has just 4 ingredients fat is about 11%..you may know another low fat limited ingredient kibble but less ingredients are best, less food to cause the acid reflux… with Patch we are finding he has food sensitivities as well that irritate the stomach then the bowel…The Taste of wild wet & dry is too high in fat % the lowest I found was 15%min fat so max % would be around 17%.. I always email the kibble company & asked what is the max% with the fat & they normally email me back….

Try a new lower fat diet first & ant acid meds then if new diet and ant acid meds don’t work, have the endoscope & biopsies done, that’s what I did…

[InkedMarie]

so, she’s allergic to rabbit. There are other proteins you can feed her. Grandma Lucy’s has a goat then there are all the raw proteins I listed, not to mention that I forgot.

[Alasdair D]

Hi All,

First post, so please be a bit gentle….

As an introduction, I live in the UK and have 2 Deerhounds. One is 10 years old and one is 10 months old. The pup has been fed raw since birth and I converted the old lady to raw when we got the pup 6 months ago. The old lady had been fed raw many years ago, but I got lazy and moved her onto Royal Canin some years ago at a vet’s recommendation. Over time, she developed some skin problems, but the move to raw has cleared that up completely and she now also has more energy.

Anyway….what I am looking for is some advice on the diet I currently feed them. I will describe the “go to” menu, but be aware that I do chop and change depending on what is available and also feed lamb rib bones and other raw meaty bones often.

I normally feed the dogs twice daily. Breakfast is a raw mince and vegetables (see below) meal and dinner is normally raw chicken wings or quarters.

The mince I use is made from ground chicken carcasses so has about 15% bone, and also has about 10% added offal. It is all human grade chicken meat with no additives or preservative whatsoever – just pure ground up chicken parts.

For the vegetables, about every month or so I buy a load of leafy greens, carrots, sweet potatoes (the orange ones) and broccoli, then grind it up really fine in my food processor and freeze to use later.

I use about 1/3rd veggies and 2/3 mince for the breakfast meal – and I also add a supplement that I make up from equal weights of powdered kelp, brewers yeast and ground flaxseed. Each dog gets a desert spoonful of this powder with their breakfast.

That’s the typical meal plan. Both dogs love it, the pup appears to be in phenomenal health and the old girl is much better than she used to be.

So, I am really looking for comments on this….. I think it covers most of the bases in terms of protein, fat, carbs, vitamins and minerals, but I want to know if there is something I am missing or anything I can or should add to improve their diet.

Let me know what you think!

Many thanks,

Alasdair

[Pitlove]

M M- I’m very glad to hear that your dog is doing well on a vegan diet. It is first and foremost important that dogs are healthy whether they are eating meat or not. I am not a supporter of vegan dog diets and as an aside I feel it should be considered animal cruelty to do feed them to a cat as they can become critically/fatally ill, however, your dog is clearly an extreme case.

Do you know if she is allergic to Rabbit or Kangaroo? You can feed those raw as well and for a dog with such extreme allergies you probably have already found out that raw is usually best. Hare Today also makes Cavie grinds (guinea pig). That could be another novel protein to look into. However, the grinds from Hare Today are not complete and balanced and would require you to make them such (your vet could probably help you).

As I said though, it is great that you have found something that is working for your dog. As long as she continues to remain thriving and healthy for her yearly check-ups and allergy and yeast free then more power to you both!

[InkedMarie]

So she is not allergic to “every kind of meat”. There are some kibbles with kangaroo and rabbit, there is a freezedried food with goat. You can feed raw like I do (ground) and feed goat, emu, rabbit, pheasant, quail, off the top of my head. MUCH better for a dog than a vegetarian food, IMO.

[sharon b]

Thanks Cheryl, I did hear back from the vet. He got a sample of the “snot” and tested positive for 3 bacteria, I am not sure which exactly. I am a pharmacist, so I know med’s, based on them, He has been on Augmentin and Metronidazole for a month now, they must have been some gram positive staph type, and possibly an anerobic maybe? He is being switched to cephalexin now, another broad spectrum. The infection is mostly in his nose/sinus’s, but he is congested in the throat too. Lungs are clear as of last exam and no sign’s of difficult breathing. Vet didn’t seem to think it was allergies, said he was too young, although my boyfriend thought that comment was in regards to me saying I was going to switch to a raw diet. Seems sometimes they need to be educated, especially when they don’t see a particular breed often. As far as the vomiting, it is hours later, and the other dog is outside much of the day (old habits). Curious on why no turkey necks? are they bigger? I am not sure if my freezer is going to be big enough for this, and my home is small and not enough room for an additional freezer unless I get the porch I am hoping for added on. I would just look for one on Craig’s list and put it on the deck put have heard the winter weather if on or off ruins them. Obviously if below freezing wouldn’t need to run it. I will do small batches of food for the time being.
My guy is pretty good with his paws, he eats bully sticks and hangs on to them, and we have given them both beef bones before, mostly rib from pet stores, not raw.

[Ysabella J]

We have fed a variety of high quality canned food, kibble, and premade raw to our Golden Retriever for her entire life. I’ve recently done research and am just trying to get some more opinions/options. So, in your opinion what is the best canned food out there? Personally, I think Orijen/Acana are top notch when it comes to dry, Stella & Chewy’s or Primal for raw, but haven’t found a personal favorite for canned food.

Which also brings me to.. Does anyone know a high quality canned food that uses chemical free packaging? I wish the brands I listed above had canned foods as well.. Lol. Thanks in advance you guys!

[M M]

We have been using V-Dog for 10 months with amazing results in our hyper-allergic English bulldog. Only after switching to V-dog did we learn through allergy testing that she is allergic to milk and every kind of meat (tho’ we suspected at least some meats were an issue as we tried ~6 types). To the person who has never heard of a dog being allergic to meat, you’re welcome to call our vet and discuss our dog’s case. It happens. A week after we adopted her, her previous owner commented that she has “allergies” but he didn’t specify details and we had never heard of meat allergies. I had to buy a cone collar to keep her from scratching herself raw.

The first vet we saw recommended a novel protein diet so we proceeded to try salmon then various rare protein and grain/potato-free options. I didn’t notice any changes in her intense whole-body itching, skin yeast and bacterial infections, and ear infections, so I figured we had not given it enough time to show benefit as I was told it takes 3 months after switching foods to notice a change.

We switched to the V-dog a week after our pup had a severe allergic reaction with facial and airway swelling, wheezing, and hives that failed to resolve with 2 steroid injections and oral prednisolone. She gobbled up the V-dog and begged for more, which was a huge change from me having to lace the other foods we’d tried with peanut butter or moist food (which she often would just lick off and leave the kibble behind).

Within a few days of switching to V-dog we noticed a dramatic reduction in the itchy-scratchies, yeasty body smell, yeasty ears, red face after eating, and watery eyes after eating. Her hives resolved and thanks to her improved smell I was able to wait 2+ weeks between baths (vs 3x/week with medicated shampoo as previously directed by our vet). Her hives totally resolved. The bald spots in her coat filled in and now her coat is thick and shiny.

A while after switching to V-dog, I tried giving her a fresh raw meat knuckle bone which she gnawed at for 2 minutes then promptly threw up and then refused to touch it. I thought maybe she didn’t like the raw aspect, so I cooked meat and made homemade broth from bones, at which point her allergies dramatically worsened. Stopped the meat, allergies gone.

The V-dog is expensive, but we happily pay for it as our dog is now healthy and happy. She was so miserable before. When we go to the vet for routine care she and her staff all say how nice it is to see a healthy bulldog. We also supplement with coarsely ground home-cooked beans and veggies (especially kale and broccoli), which she devours. We give her plain organic PB mixed with freshly ground flaxseed for treats. For training treats we just use the V-dog kibbles since she loves them so much. She also loves and begs for raw carrot sticks and fruits like thin apple slices, mashed cherries/berries, watermelon, and banana (tho’ we heavily limit fruit to small amounts due to high sugar content and also give watermelon from near the rind to limit sugar).

I would like to find a home-cooked food option in case there is a time when we can’t get the V-dog (and also it seems that baked kibble is not really an ideal food, despite how well she does with it compared to other kibble and moist foods), but for now I am very happy to support the company. The vet told us that we should stick with V-dog as it is working so well for us.

Of note, our dog also has environmental allergies, but as long as we vacuum to keep dust/pollen at a minimum she does fine. I do limit her time outdoors during the worst of the pollen season. But even if her allergies flare from pollen they are nothing like what they were before the V-dog switch.

[Cheryl F]

Hi Sharon,

You said for the 2nd day your Newf pup has thrown up. Is it immediately after he finishes eating, or some time later (say 1 hour post feeding). If it’s immediately – thats regurgitation and oftentimes dogs on RAW will do that and then re-eat the food. Nothing to be worried about unless its an every day occurrence for a ‘period’ of time. Hardest part is to keep the other dogs from “clean up on aisle 12” participation! You also mentioned a couple other things – but didn’t fully qualify them. He came back positive for 3 bacterias….what bacterias. What is the infection he was diagnosed with and what is he being treated with? Not that that has any bearing on the BARF diet, but I’m curious. I would advise you to call your local butchers/food stores and ask them what they have in the back that they haven’t put out yet, ground up etc…. If you get on their good side and ask them for help in the processing of your meat requests, they may do the chopping for you. i dont recommend feeding your dogs ground up food all the time. The chewing action is what they need to clean teeth, expend energy (in the case of your newf pup – chewing a good big knuckle bone for an hour or so will tire him out and give you a break). Plus it’s good for the dogs to learn how to ‘hold’ the bones properly in their paws so they can get at the good stuff. It’s quite amazing to watch them learn what they need to do. I wont forget the day that my one puppy learned how to use his paws as tools and then his raw meaty bone handling skills went over the top for him. 🙂 You can feed large dogs full chicken necks without worrying about having to cut them up. I only cut up now because I have ‘smaller’ dogs than i used to. NEVER feed a turkey neck without it being cut up. I have had to fish my hand into my Saints mouths in the past to retrieve a full neck that was getting stuck because i didn’t cut it up….so word of caution on that.

Sounds like you have done a ton of research on this topic and while the whole process of feeding raw is foreign to some and maybe a little scarey or cost prohibitive up front – it’s far better for them, costs less $ in the long run due to smaller portions, less vet bills, less $ for meds due to allergies, etc…

Id love to hear back from you on what the specific issues are with your newf pup by the way. Have a great day.

Cheryl

[sharon b]

For the second day now, my Newf puppy has thrown up. Seems to be a lot of mucus, most likely this infection or allergy. Not going to wait, switching to raw, even if it/s from a pet store, and grocery store now. Since I am not even sure it’s an allergy, and I have some chicken patties, I will start with that tonight. Tomorrow get more, or possibly just go straight chicken and add as I go. Waiting for vet to call back but puppies can’t afford not to be eating or loosing their meals. He is acting fine, but very congested in the throat and still sneezing with crap coming out. I may prefer organic but more than that, I prefer that my dog get the nutrition he needs first and foremost. This is not a typical allergy, It came back positive for 3 different bacteria’s, but the infection may be secondary to something underlying, IDK. Either way, going Raw cannot hurt, it can only help.

[Pitlove]

Sharon- One thing that most can tell you is that with raw because of how nutrient dense it is you feed less. When I went to Darwin’s to calculate for my 9 mo kitten it gave me options for ages. Not sure if it does the same for dogs. If it does it might have actually calculated it correctly for your pup. Hopefully someone who uses Darwin’s for their dogs can weigh in on this.

Raw seems very overwhelming to me as well, however most things are like that for me when it comes to my animals. I worry and over think everything. Another suggestion I have is to call Darwin’s directly. I’ve heard they have excellent customer service and I’m sure they could give you an idea of how much a LBP would eat on raw.

[InkedMarie]

Sharon,
I’m no positive but I don’t think your mixer would grind any bones but I could be wrong. I see people recommend a Wesson/Weston for grinding but beef bones can’t be ground in those either, I don’t think.

Hare Today, Darwins & Reel Raw have the “good” meat you mentioned. Pawfectly Raw NE is in New England, I don’t think she ships. It is restaurant quality, USDA meat. The beef is from farms in NY/VT. I’ll be honest. I want to feed raw but I am on a budget myself so I feed what I can afford.

[sharon b]

Also, I feed twice a day even though I am home, although my 8 year old husky still is used to once a day. I am aware of bloat but they recommend having that surgery done when neutering is done. He sometimes goes to doggie daycare, so the food mixing I do now and refrigeration and such we decided was too complex for three times a day. Raw food would be even harder at daycare, although they will have to deal when he is there and we are on vaca and he is on raw, hopefully by then. My boyfriend is flipping out a bit on the cost of this raw food, even though it really isn’t much more than what we have been spending, and the puppy’s food will decrease after another 4 months or so. Any suggestions how to get him aboard? I can’t even get him to eat healthy w/ vegetables, so trying to play the healthy card. Any discount on pet insurance?? that would help?

[sharon b]

Thank you Cheryl and Vincent and Marie. I am on disability for neck and shoulder injury so cutting and chopping would not be good for me, but I do have and rarely have used a meat grinder on a kitchen aid mixer. Wonder if that would help?? I am a bit of an organic freak so doubt I would find chicken on specials that are hormone free? Was the chicken you found hormone free? Does anyone go to a local butcher and ask for chicken and turkey necks and various other bones they normally would be buying?? Just a thought, might also make it more affordable. I looked into Darwins, and getting into Perfectly Raw and checking also into shipping cost’s. Darwin’s I believe stated no hormones and sells grass fed meat.