[BlueDog]

Thanks for the great response! The reason I ask is mainly because I would really like to start feeding a raw diet, but I don’t have a large budget or a lot of storage space. Do you have any suggestions that can help minimize expenditures? I know I need to find someone in town that I can joint order with, but do you have any other ideas?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi BlueDog –

It would be okay to use canned vegetables on occasion if you absolutely have to, but I wouldn’t exactly consider them a good substitute for fresh. A lot of nutrients are lost during the canning process. Your best choice is (obviously) going to be fresh produce, followed by frozen and then canned would be the least nutritious. Remember fresh and frozen vegetables need to be cooked and pureed prior to feeding – this will start to break down the cellulose and allow the dog to digest the vegetables more efficiently. If convenience is an issue another option that I feel is a bit healthier than canned vegetables is “pouched” fruit and vegetable puree sold for babies. I usually cook up and puree fresh or frozen vegetables for my crew but if I know I’m going to be pressed for time I’ll pick up some of these. They generally contain two or three different fruits and vegetables and the cooking and pureeing is already done for you. Canned fish is fine – tinned sardines are a great source of omega 3’s and vitamin d and low in mercury and canned oysters supply some omega 3’s in addition to many trace nutrients. If you aren’t feeding raw fatty fish or adding fish oil to meals you’ll want to feed tinned sardines. Steve Brown – essential fat authority and author or “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” – recommends the following amounts of sardines be served per week: 5 lbs – 1/4 can; 15 lbs. – 1/2 can; 25 lbs. – 5/8 can; 50 lbs. – 1 can; 100 lbs. – 1 3/4 can. (3.75 oz. can packed in water). And yes, it’s completely okay to buy bulk frozen meat. I buy bulk frozen meat because I get the best price when I buy in bulk.

[BlueDog]

I am new to this site and have just started researching raw food diets for my dog, and I want to say thank you all who have contributed their great advice to this forum! Your hard work is very much appreciated!! A quick question: Is canned food, say canned carrots for example, a decent substitute for fresh produce, or even fish? I know you have to watch out for added sodium.. Also, is there anything wrong with buying bulk frozen fish and other meats? So long as you thaw it of course.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi shelties mom –

I do believe that dogs should be fed a diet rich in joint maintaining compounds (glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM, etc.) for a lifetime in order to promote optimum joint health. A dog’s natural ancestral diet which is rich in bones, cartilage and sinew, would naturally contain high levels of these joint health promoting substances. For those feeding a raw diet that includes bones/cartilage, it generally isn’t necessary to supplement with joint supplements unless the dog has an orthopedic condition (i.e. hip dysplasia) or until the dog reaches its senior years. For dogs not eating a species-appropriate diet I feel it’s a good idea to supplement the diet with whole foods naturally rich in joint health compounds (think fresh or dried trachea chews, gullet, poultry feet, etc.) or give a low dose of a joint support supplement for maintenance (the dosage can be increased as the dog ages or begins to show symptoms of arthritis). Some whole food supplements beneficial for joint health would be sea cucumber, shark cartilage or green lipped mussel (generally come in capsules or powder). A standard glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM supplement will also suffice. If a dog is showing signs of pain or inflammation it can also be beneficial to combine a joint maintenance supplement with a natural anti-inflammatory such as boswellia, yucca, turmeric, bromelain, tart cherry, etc.

[dogmom2]

This is the spirulina supplement that my vet.

Animal Essentials Organic Green Alternative

Animal Essentials Herbal Green Alternative Antioxidant Powder for Dogs & Cats

Any thoughts?

Both my dogs are on Darwin’s, or we feed THK preference with an organic protein, or a balanced diet of rmb, meat and organ (usually kidney or liver). We also feed raw green tripe, and on occasion kibble with Merrick. ( we are switching from Evo red meat to trying our first bag of Brothers Complete Allergy. )
We also supplement with kefir, yogurt, cottage cheese, fresh eggs, sardines in olive oil.
We give pre and probiotic with enzymes daily, turmeric, glucosamine and fish oil also.

[dogmom2]

Hi there!!

Sorry it has taken me so long to get back here. It has been crazy busy around here these days.

Hank is doing great on the Darwin’s. We are now into our 3 full shipment, and I am very happy with the food. Both dogs really like it. We also bought duck necks from them, and we are incorporating them into their homemade raw diet. (we get grass fed beef hear, tongue, kidney and liver from a local rancher) It is fun to hear them crunching. My black lab loves sardines as it turns out.

Unfortunately, Hank had his first foot blow up in a year and a half, but we are convinced that it is ingrown hair between the toes that cause it, and not environmental allergies. We are doing laser treatments at our vet, and we did one acupuncture treatment as well. Poor guy, he is on low activity until it heals. His itching and licking is pretty much resolved for now.

All in all, I wish I would have learned about Darwins, raw feeding, etc years ago.

ps. I just ordered my first 5# sample of Brothers complete allergy last night for the days when kibble is whats for dinner!

[pugmomsandy]

HoundDogMom might have the answer. She makes her own raw as well. I have a recipe book by Dr. Karen Becker/Beth Taylor and it actually gives all the breakdown of protein/fat/carbs as well as a nutrient analysis for all the recipes.

[NectarMom]

I have been using Mercola enzymes for approx 3 months now and it has pancreatin in it. If there is another brand that you might think is better or has more in it that she could use please feel free to post it.

For now we are sticking with Turkey but before the Pancreatitis issue I spoke to Darwin’s about mixing in Duck and I recall the girl on the phone from Darwin’s said Duck is lower in fat? I was talking to a co-worker about it and she ordered her yorkie the turkey and she said it made her yorkie very sick but I would bet she did not do a slow transition. I asked her about trying Duck because her dog was on a duck kibble and she said Duck was too high in fat from what she read up on the different proteins??

Also something I noticed more of is that since we switched to Raw my Chihuahua that had the Pancreatitis has been dropping fur like crazy, shes a black short coat chihuahua. Last time that happened my vet said it was due to her missing something in her diet and so that is when we started food searching, we were using Azmira back then.

[Hound Dog Mom]

All dogs (even raw fed) should poop at least once a day. My dogs have been on raw for almost two years and all three poop once or twice a day. Hopefully her stool issues clear up once she gets uses to her new raw diet.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Do you supplement with digestive enzymes? Enzyme supplements that include pancreatin, in some cases, is believed to help reduce the risk of acute pancreatitis or control chronic pancreatitis. Pancreatin is comprised of the amylase, lipase and protease produced by the pancreas. The idea is that adding supplemental pancreatin to the diet of a pancreatitis prone dog will lessen the stress on the dog’s pancreas. Another option would be a pancreas glandular – most glandulars are derived from bovine sources so I’m not sure if that would trigger a sensitivity (I know you’re trying to stick to turkey for the time being). Just some things to consider.

[Hound Dog Mom]

That’s too bad NectarMom. Most dogs can tolerate very high levels of fat but they should be worked up to it slowly. Raw typically has much higher levels of fat than commercial food, so dogs should have their fat levels increased incrementally. Many raw meaty bones and recreational bones (especially marrow bones) are extremely high in fat and should be avoided until the dog is well acclimated to its new raw diet and higher levels of fat.

[blurose]

I an thinking about switching my 70 pound Golden Retriever to a raw food diet. How do you determine the amount of food to give each day? I am planning on using frozen raw with bone already incorporated. Also, would I need to add any supplements? Thank you for your help.

[suztzu]

I am looking to add more moisture to my dogs diet he’s been eating Natures Variety Prarie Dry he does not do well on grain free foods. I want to add canned to his diet or a premade raw for variety and a little more protein without all the extra fat. I cannot decipher these canned labels ( I try but am not very successful) I would like to have something in the mid-fat range hes a shih tzu and gains weight very easily. The canned food reviews Ive been looking at are 20% and higher do I need to worry about the fat levels if it is not his main diet ? Even the 4 star foods are really high in fat. Am I missing something, I would feed him canned all the time if I could figure out how not to turn him into a blimp in doing so I know canned/raw is a healthier option for him. Any advice to alleviate my confusion would be helpful Thanks

[NectarMom]

Weruva did not work out and now I have 11 cans of it I need to get rid of. I had only given them inbetween the Raw diet one teaspoon and vomit was all over the house. Guess it is just raw twice a day and that is it!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi weimlove –

As far as wild game, I’ve only fed my dogs venison that my dad shoots. I’ve honestly never contemplated feeding shark or heard of anyone feeding it. I did a quick search and found two sites that say it is safe to feed: petmanage.com/fish-health/raw-fish-diet-for-dogs.html and rawlearning.com/fish.html. I would definitely give it a good long freeze though. I also wouldn’t go overboard as I’d assume shark is high in mercury.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Bigcoco –

1) 30% bone is way too much. As Patty said, bone should comprise 10% of the diet. The calcium to phosphorus ratio needs to be between 1:1 and 2:1 (ideally around 1.2 – 1.3:1). When the diet is 10% bone, 10% organ meat and 80% muscle meat the calcium to phosphorus ratio is right within that optimal range. A diet of 30% bone will be throwing that ratio of balance.

2) I checked out the product website and I can’t see where organs are included in the mixes? All I see is where they state 70% meat and 30% bone. If organ meat is not included in adequate quantities in the 70% “meat” you’ll need to feed organ meat. Organ meat should comprise 10% of the diet – 5% being liver and 5% being other organs (kidneys, lungs, spleen, pancreas, brain, etc.). Organ meat provides crucial vitamins and minerals that aren’t provided by muscle meat.

3) I can’t find where the level of vitamin e in the Bravo salmon oil is stated on their website and often the amounts added to fish oils are too low. I checked out the Pet Naturals of Vermont Daily Best supplement and there is little vitamin e in that either. Small dogs should get 50 – 100 IU per day, medium dogs 100 – 200 IU per day and large dogs 200 – 400 IU per day. Vitamin e requirements increase when fish oil (omega 3’s) is being supplemented, if adequate quantities are not received with omega 3 fatty acid supplementation the dog will eventually develop a vitamin e deficiency.

4) It’s also possible your dog could be deficient in certain trace nutrients – it’s hard telling without a nutrient analysis but because the Pet Naturals supplement is designed to be fed with a complete and balanced commercial food the amounts of vitamins and minerals are very low (as they are with most pet supplements). To ensure your dog is getting all the trace nutrients he needs I’d recommend either supplementing with a human multivitamin – base the dosage off a 100 lb. person (i.e. 25 lb. dog gets 1/4 human dosage, 50 lb. dog gets 1/2 human dosage, 75 lb. dog gets 3/4 human dosage, 100 lbs.+ gets human dosage) – or adding whole food supplements. I prefer to avoid synthetic supplements for my dogs so I feed a variety of nutrient-dense whole food supplements like kelp, alfalfa, bee pollen, spirulina, wheatgrass, glandulars, sprouted nuts & seeds, etc.

“Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown is a fantastic resource for raw feeding. It’s a really great book for beginners – short and easy to understand and includes AAFCO compliant recipes. You may want to checkout this book. It was a constant resource for me when I first started feeding homemade raw.

[theBCnut]

I get raw from 3 companies and the grocery store, but Darwin’s is the only “balanced complete” diet I buy. I really like it.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Sheltie’s Mom –

If you’re feeding a balanced commercial food you don’t need to add any organ meat and I’d keep the tripe to 20% or less of the meal. If you’re making your own food organ meat should account for 10% of the diet (5% liver and 5% other organs) and tripe can account for as much of the other 90% of the diet as you want. Tripe has a 1:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio so calcium doesn’t have to be supplemented to account for the tripe. Organ meat is very rich in phosphorus and contains almost no calcium so you’ll want to add around 1,200 mg. calcium per pound of organ meat fed. Gullet and trachea contain mostly cartilage and a small amount of muscle meat – they have close to a 1:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio. If you’re just feeding trachea or gullet once in awhile as a chew, I wouldn’t worry about balancing the calcium to phosphorus ratio.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi taylorjesset –

The only K9 Natural’s formula I would consider feeding is the chicken. The beef and lamb formulas are way too high in fat (and this is coming from someone who feeds their dogs a high fat diet). For the average dog fat should be 50% of protein, for more active dogs or dogs prone to weight loss it’s fine to feed fat levels up to around 90% of protein, but unless a dog is a serious working dog (as in a sled dog in training or something similar) fat should never exceed protein. My dogs are extremely active hounds, I generally keep their fat levels between 60% and 80% of protein. The K9 Naturals Beef formula is 27.8% protein and 57% fat (on a dry matter basis) and the lamb formula is 28.9% protein and 53.8% fat on a dry matter basis! These foods have almost twice as much fat as they do protein. Eating a food this dense in fat could cause your dog to eat it’s daily amount of calories without fulfilling protein requirements. When foods are this high in fat it’s also a good indication that the meat used is very low quality (fatty cuts unwanted in the human food industry).

[pugmomsandy]

The Honest Kitchen has a couple of grain free foods and the ingredient lists are quite short compared to alot of foods and both your pugs can eat it. My pugs eat the Zeal formula on occasion. The pugs at my house also eat Brothers Complete, Nutrisca and Nutrisource Grain Free for kibbles. You might want to give (if you’re not currently doing so) daily probiotics/digestive enzymes to both your pugs to help with gut health and immune system. For canned food, Merrick 96% grain free is very simplistic as well and has vits/minerals so can be fed daily as a meal not just as a topper. Also you might want to give tripe a try – raw green tripe. You can find this in the frozen section at the pet store. It is very easily digested and has natural probiotics in it already. I’ll attach an article about it when I get home if someone else doesn’t do it first! Go to greentripe.com and use their store locator. Some better pet boutiques and feedstores will have it. If you join a yahoo group such as a BARF group, the members can probably help you locate a local source for tripe. There’s also canned tripe although not as good as raw tripe. Merrick and Solid Gold and Tripett have canned tripe. The pugs absolutely love tripe. They even get tripe spring chews instead of bully sticks. For raw tripe my boys eat 6 oz a day. For canned food they will eat one can a day.

How much BB were you feeding and which formula? When I used BB Wilderness the pugs only ate 2/3 cup a day total. One of my fosters lost 10 lbs on a diet consisting of canned food and raw food only. He started at 38 lbs.

[turtlemom]

I have a couple Great Danes. I am always researching food and comparing dry kibble labels. They were on Blue Buffalo but my local store went up on the price to 65 bucks a bag I had to re evaluate my budget for dog food. I went to a crap food and they are eating twice as much so the search is on for a good food again. I loved Blue Buffalo but is there a better dry food out there????

I’d love a high calorie food so they don’t have to eat as much (less poo)
I’d love glucosamine and Chondroitin and Omega’s

What is a great dog food for Danes? I’d love to eventually do a raw natural diet….. but that is for another research day 🙂

Oh and sorry if this is already answered … I tried to search but only found large breed puppy info.

Thanks !

[NectarMom]

Mary Lou, I am thinking you might be right so we are stopping the Raw until we speak to Darwin’s and see if they have any suggestions. We may have to stop Raw and try another lower protein grain free , potato free kibble. Sigh. I just really hate seeing my girls uncomfortable in any way.

[NectarMom]

Mary lou, My dogs are not throwing up the food. it is hours later after the food has already digested that they throw up clear foamy liquid. I am afraid of any food that has been recalled and Natures Variety has been recalled before. My main concern right now is the acid reflux they have been having since switching to a high protein kibble. I am feeding Darwin’s Raw diet Turkey and I am wondering if it by its self is nutritionally sound for my crew. Darwin’s is closed today or I would be calling them asking. Thanks for your reply though 🙂

[Mary Lou]

NectarMom ~ our Bichon does not do well on kibble. Even if it seems to go well initially, we end up with throwing up. He does not get much kibble, but I have found two he seems to do ok on in small amounts. Right now, he has some Nature’s Variety LID Duck. They have a turkey, as well. He also does well on Nutrisca Salmon. Unfortunately, the only turkey they have is canned. He seems to do fine on high protein ~ unless it’s in a kibble. I believe these are around 29 and 30. He eats more raw and canned, but has had no issues with either of these kibbles. I hope you can find a solution for your pups.

[Melissaandcrew]

Nectar mom-

First, if a food was causing an issue to the point that I had to give all 4 pepcid, I would not be using that food. Unfortunately, as you know, each dog is different, so it can be trial and error until you find one that works for all problems that a given dog may have-some do better on grain free, some do better on grain inclusive or raw etc. Several of my dogs do not do well if the kibble protein goes over 33 or so percent. Why, I have no idea as they do fine with raw/canned etc that exceed that amount.

[NectarMom]

I am having the same problem with my 4 small dogs. I am feeding Brothers Allergy formula since Sept 2012 and I just started adding Darwin’s Raw to it with very little 95% can food (Turkey is the protein ) I am thinking it is the high protein from Brothers since they had this issue before I added the Raw. The problem is for me is that most of these freeze dried are loaded with potato. I give Pepcid AC to them but its not helping. I already had one with an ulcer due to this and an ulcer takes forever to clear up. I don’t want another one coming up with one also. It seems I cannot win for loosing. If I go 100% Raw would that solve it or would they not get enough nutrition? I am getting confused on this whole thing of high grain free protein is better yet it is causing health issues?

[NectarMom]

I am going to change my review just a bit because I do not know if it is the Raw causing this or not. I feed at 6AM every morning before I go to work and then usually around 5:30PM I feed again. I am mixing 1 TBSP of Raw with 1/8 cup of Brothers Allergy, less than half TSP of pumpkin and wellness 95% turkey and then mixed with that in the morning they get half a scoop of mercola enzymes and evening meal they get half scoop of probiotics. My problem is in-between because all the sudden hours later after a meal some are throwing up clear foam. Is this because they are needing something in between meals? I was thinking of getting some mercola bones for them to chew on. We have been on a good routine before the Raw added where 2 of my girls are loosing weight and they needed to. I don’t want to add anything else to the diet to make them gain weight. Stools are fine and no throwing up any solid food so just the throwing up hours later the clear foamy liquid. Any suggestions on what I can give them? Thanks 🙂

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi JenRose –

You may want to consider a dehydrated food, it’s much easier to find dehydrated foods that are lower in protein and fat than canned foods. Dehydrated foods will have the same consistency as canned foods when re-hydrated (as I know MegaE dogs tend to do better on foods with a “gruel” consistency). Some options:

-Addiction: They have a line of dehydrated foods with protein levels ranging from 18% -22% and several options with under 15% fat.
-The Honest Kitchen’s Verve is 22.5% protein and 8.5% fat.
-Sojo’s has two formulas that both have 22% protein and 8% fat.
-I and Love and You has three dehydrated options with 22% protein and fat levels ranging from 8% – 10%.
-Only Natural Pet’s Easy Raw dehydrated foods have 22% – 23% protein and 8% – 10% fat.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi crazy4cats –

Feeding a variety of red meat, poultry and fish (or if not feeding fish, supplementing with quality fish oil) is very important. Different meats have different amino acid profiles, it’s important to feed a variety so your dog gets a full spectrum of amino acids. Even two different types of poultry – say, chicken versus turkey – will have completely different amino acid profiles. Rotating for this reason isn’t quite as critical when feeding balanced commercial kibble or canned foods as it would be with feeding a home cooked or raw diet as commercial diets should be formulated to include adequate levels of essential amino acids, but it’s still important. Different meats also contain different types of fat: poultry is high in polyunsaturated fats (especially linoleic acid) and low in saturated fats and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), ruminants are high in saturated fats and low in polyunsaturated fats and DHA and fish is, typically, rich in DHA. Feeding your dogs a variety of different protein sources will help balance the fats in their diet. It’s important that dogs (and cats) consume a balanced spectrum of fats, in order to do this they will need to consume a variety of red meats and poultry supplemented with fatty fish or fish oil or it will be necessary to balance the fats in their food – this would involve supplementing red meat recipes with alpha linolenic acid (ALA), Linoleic Acid (LA) and DHA (walnut oil or hemp oil or canola oil in addition to a fatty fish or fish oil) and supplementing poultry recipes with ALA and DHA (chia seeds or flax and fish or fish oil). I don’t know of any kibble or canned food manufacturer that balances the fats in their foods so it’s best to feed a variety. I personally prefer single protein group foods – red meat, poultry, fish but a food that contains both poultry and red meat would be better than only feeding poultry based foods or only feeding red meat based foods. When I fed kibble I’d cycle between a red meat based food, then a poultry based food then a fish based food. Red meat would be beef, lamb, venison, bison, pork, etc. Poultry would be chicken, turkey, duck, etc. In addition to the reasons stated, I like red meat (for my homemade raw diets) because I have a greater variety of organ meat to choose from. When feeding poultry the only option is liver (gizzards and hearts count as muscle meat), this isn’t enough variety. So I typically feed red meat organs because I can get liver, kidney, lungs, spleen, pancreas – I can also get healthy “by-products” such as trachea, gullet and green tripe.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi texasniteowl –

You may want to get your boy on some supplements that will help his allergies – quercitin, nettle, burdock root and perilla leaf, omega 3’s, bromelain, papain and coconut oil are all supplements shown to help ease allergy symptoms. Aunt Jeni’s sells a supplement called “Enhance Allergy Aid” with vitamin c, burdock root, quercitin and biotin. Vet’s Best sells a supplement called “Seasonal Allergy Support” with bioflavinoids, nettle leaf, vitamin c, perilla leaf and quercitin. You may want to consider purchasing one of these or a similar supplement and giving him some fish oil and coconut oil daily.

If your he is indeed allergic to your grass you should bathe him frequently in an herbal shampoo (avoid oatmeal-based shampoos) and have a foot soak ready to use after he’s been outdoors (you can make a solution using 1 gal. water, 1 c. hydrogen peroxide and 1-4 c. white vinegar or you can mix povidone iodine with water). Soak his feet every time he comes indoors so he’s not tracking the allergen through your house and vacuum frequently.

You should make sure his food is low in carbohydrates as high carbohydrate diets are “pro-inflammatory” and can worsen allergy symptoms. Your best bet, as Patty mentioned, would be a balanced raw diet. If that’s not possible a high protein canned or dehydrated food would be the next best option. If you must feed kibble keep it high protein. My top picks for kibble would be Orijen (38-40% protein), Nature’s Variety Instinct (35 – 42% protein), EVO (42-52% protein), Solid Gold’s Barking at the Moon (41% protein), Artemis Maximal (42% protein) Earthborn Primitive Natural (38% protein) or Wysong Epigen (60% protein). If you can at least top the kibble with balanced raw or a high quality canned or dehydrated food, this would be better than kibble alone.

Supplementing with probiotics is known to help allergies as well. I would recommend adding a high quality multi-strain probiotic to the food such as Mercola Probiotics, Garden of Life Primal Defense, Dr. Stephen Langer’s Ultimate 15 Strain Probiotic with FOS or Swanson’s Soil-Based Organisms. Probiotics may help firm up his stool as well. Some other ideas to help firm him up would be adding a spoonful of plain canned pumpkin to each meal and supplementing with digestive enzymes.

Remember it may take several weeks for things to clear up. Good luck!

[Hound Dog Mom]

I don’t have dobermans, but I have “large active dogs” (3 bloodhounds). I’ve found they do best on a high protein, moderate/high fat, low carb raw diet without grains or starches. Their meals average around 50% protein and 35% fat. They seem to maintain their weight better with higher fat levels.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi JillMcN –

Please be aware that using a pre-mix will not necessarily ensure that your dog is getting all the nutrients it needs. There are a few pre-mixes available that meet AAFCO nutrient profiles when prepared per instructions (The Honest Kitchen’s Preference, U-Stew, Urban Wolf, See Spot Live Longer Dinner Mix), but many have no claim of meeting the AAFCO’s nutrient standards and many of these – like Sojo’s, for example – don’t appear to be conplete and balanced when prepared according to the instructions. These unbalanced pre-mixes would be fine to use intermittently, but to feed long term you would need to know what supplements to add in order to balance the recipe. So if you’re planning on using a pre-mix long term, please make sure it meets the AAFCO’s nutrient standards.

The recipe you posted actually appears to be quite balanced, only a few things that I’d tweak. I’d cut the liver from 8 oz. to 4 oz. and give 4 oz. of another organ (kidney, lungs, spleen, etc.) I’d add another whole food supplement (such as alfalfa or wheatgrass) in addition to the kelp. I’d also highly recommend rotating in red meat for the poultry 50% of the time – this will help balance the fats as poultry is high in polyunsaturated fats (particularly linoleic acid) while red meat is high in saturated fats and low in polyunsaturated fats. Red meat is also much higher in iron and many micronutrients than poultry. There are several books available that contain complete and balanced recipes that are AAFCO compliant. “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown is my favorite – the recipes are for raw food but could easily be converted to cooked by substituting muscle meat for any RMB’s and adding 800-1,000 mg. calcium per pound of meat.

[JillMcN]

I have a recipe by Andi Brown – I’ve made it once for my 7-yr-old-pug and I’d like to make it again while I continue researching the things I need to add.
It is home-cooked, not raw. I’ll post it after my question. After reading some posts here, I got as nearly-to-powder as possible some egg shells to add to each meal (1/4 tsp.) and some sardines for Omega 3s (although there is wild-caught salmon on the recipe).

When I cook the chicken, I obviously remove the large bones, but there are several small bones that I think would be very soft and thoroughly decimated by my extra-strong hand blender.
Is the answer always “no” – do not feed cooked bones, even finely mushed-up cooked bones to our dogs?

Thanks in advance.

The recipe I used (minus the oats and minus the garlic):
The Whole Pet Diet Chicken Stew
Special note: use organic ingredients whenever possible
• 5 pounds Whole Chicken or Turkey (bones, organs, skin and all)
• 6 – 8 cups spring water
• 1/2 pound of additional beef liver, or chicken liver or turkey liver (your choice)
• 1/2 pound of wild salmon
• 2 cloves chopped fresh garlic
• 1/2 pound green peas
• 1 pound coarsely chopped carrots
• 1/2 pound coarsely chopped sweet potato (yam)
• 1 pound coarsely chopped zucchini
• 1 pound coarsely chopped yellow squash
• 1/2 pound of coarsely chopped green beans
• 1 pound coarsely chopped celery
• 1/4 teaspoon kelp powder
• Dash of dried rosemary
See Chef’s Tip on Freshly Grated Toppings
For Dogs:
Add 12 oz. of Rolled Oats and adjust the water content to a total of 12 cups or enough to just “cover” the ingredients.

Combine all ingredients in a 10-quart stock pot (stainless steel, please). Bring to boil, reduce to low, and simmer for about 1 1/2 hours.

Once finished (your carrots are soft), let cool and de-bone the chicken by hand. With an electric hand mixer (I use one available from Sears for about $19) or a food processor, blend all the ingredients into a nice puree. Using plastic yogurt containers, or Tupperware, make up “meal-sized” portions or what you will need for three days, and freeze what you don’t need immediately.

[NectarMom]

Yes we are on turkey. I think in my situation it is best that I do not over load my dogs with raw meat on a bone due to they are so sensitive to change in anything in a diet. I am currently having issues with my shihtzu after day 2 on just mixing a half a teaspoon of Darwin’s turkey. Shes eating and no temp but shes very sluggish which is surprising due to my one with intestinal issues is fine and my shihtzu is following me around like there is no tomorrow and shes never like that. My shihtzu’s stool was a bit soft but not runny but I don’t like the way she is acting and nothing else has changed in her environment but the Darwin’s. I do things slow with them since they have had alot of issues with diet change. I am super parinoid of introducing any type of Raw with my dogs so I am taking baby steps to do this transition if it even works. Thank you both for your wealth of info and just to let you know it has been taken in and I really appreciate the advice.

[kmarron]

Thank you for the advice!

[NectarMom]

I got my Darwin’s Turkey order Wed and it was packed so well and still very frozen so I put all of it (which was ALOT) into the freezer and kept one pack out for in a couple of days ( Today). Darwin’s called me the day the shipment came in and walked me through how to make a hopefully smooth transition start. I can honestly say I was very very nervious about starting a raw diet for my dogs since I hate meat with a passion ( I do not eat it)

Day one: Per advice from Darwin’s – Feed my usual mix and add in just half a teaspoon with each dogs meal of Darwin’s and mix in enzymes ( Mercola Brand) Now I have a VERY picky Shihtzu that will only eat out of my hand her kibble and can food but not this morning, she was trying to eat everyone elses and when I put her bowl down ( shes always last eating because shes so picky) Everyone else would eat her food before she got a chance but not this morning she actually ate all of her mixture right out of the bowl…OMG …I have not ever seen her do that in 2 1/2yrs she was born.

My short coat Chihuahua ( GiGi) smelled the Darwin’s in the bo as soon as I brought it in and put it on the floor. She was litterally climbing the walls wanting what was in that box ( Frozen Darwin’s LOL! I truely believe she would have eaten it frozen she wanted it that bad..hehe!

Now this is just the first day on it and the first feeding so I am hoping we do not have issues and I guess my only concern is the sweet potato since we are on a potato free diet. Time will tell if it agrees with GiGi since she is the one with intestinal allergies to what we do not know yet but for sure she is allergic to insect bites but that is not food related. Keep your fingers crossed for us. This is going to be a very slow process and we hope to make this work for our girls. I love the extra container they send to keep the raw in but I just for right now wish the porportions were a bit smaller since I am sure within 48 hrs I will be throwing some away.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Sounds like Shadow is thriving on his new species-appropriate diet! Glad to hear it 🙂

[Hound Dog Mom]

Marie –

I’m not convinced a dog can get all the nutrients it needs on a meat/organ/bone only diet unless it were to be eating a variety of wild caught whole prey animals (which isn’t realistic). There are a lot of items that are necessary to add in order to provide vital trace nutrients. I’m actually working on posting my dogs’ latest menu plan to the recommended menus thread. I ran a full nutrient analysis on this menu plan to ensure that it conforms to the AAFCO nutrient profiles for all life stages. I’ve always been a believer that meat, organs and bone alone aren’t adequate, but after doing this analysis (and suffering the headaches that came with it lol) I’m sure of it.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi shihtzumom –

If your dog was passing undigested veg – the veg wasn’t processed properly. Veg needs to be cooked and pureed before adding to the food. I wouldn’t advise feeding a diet without veg as it provides trace nutrients, antioxidants and fiber. You could feed the all meat variety amd prepare your own veg or use baby food (there are many “pouch” baby foods available that contain only fruit and veg). My dogs get fresh cooked and pureed veg at breakfast every day – broccoli, spinach, carrots, squash, parsley, etc. I used to add fruit occasionally, but now I just give them each a capsule of a freeze-dried fruit concentrate daily – it’s the antioxidant equivalent of a serving of fruit without the carbs and sugars.

[Shihtzumom20]

Hi Guys!
I just wanted to give an update on how Dawson is doing on his “real” raw diet! So far he has loved and therefore devoured every meal he has had, which is something for him! He bounces and dances until I put his bowl down. He has loved all the proteins, so far he has had chicken, turkey, duck and beef. What a change for the better! I have also noticed that his eyes are nice and clear and he doesnt have constantly wet “cheeks”. His fur is so soft! It is so nice to have him eat with such vigour instead of throwing his meal all over the floor.
I have a question though, there are carrots in the “dinners” , but I noticed they look the same coming out as they did going in! I was thinking about changing to the 100% meat blends that dont include veggies, or should I not worry too much about carrot pieces? If I do switch to the 100% do i have to worry about more supplements, he gets krill oil, vitamin D and vitamin E. He is getting locally pre-made raw Big Country Raw. Plus I am wanting to add more things like turkey necks, and he Loves beef trachea (so far it is dehydrated), I believe that you guys said it could be up to 20% of his diet, is that right?

[Melissaandcrew]

I would isolate the dogs overnight(different rooms) to determine which one is doing the house wetting overnight-My concern is the fact that you are stating the urine is clear, which means the dog does not appear to be concentrating the urine properly and could signify a kidney issue. Take the “offending” dog to the vet once you discover which it is, and have a full chem panel and ua done.

My dogs do not eat 100 percent raw-their meals are varied, but NONE of them urinate excessively when they do get it, nor do they urinate clear.

[Melissaandcrew]

Sorry-nothing productive to add except that your comment Patty, cracked me up : )

gebo- I am one of the few that will feed a corn containing product from time to time as part of my rotation. Not that I believe its GOOD for them, but I also do not believe that its the end of the world for a small portion of their diet. I believe in hedging my bets on the current schools of thought to dog feeding. Could one version be better factually(not opinion) then another? Sure-but I do not feel that any methods provide enough definitive proof for me to subscribe to just one. Therefore, I feed grain free, grain inclusive, one that contains corn(from time to time-Pro Pac) raw, dehydrated, fresh, canned, home made etc. While not every one will agree on what method is best, understand that the majority of the regular posters have researched their choosen way/method and do not follow along blindly.

[theBCnut]

I can’t help but wonder if the particular brand you’re feeding has a lot of salt in it. None of mine increased their urination when I switched to raw. Can you do a couple of days of feeding just hamburger or something to get them off the food you’re feeding, just long enough to tell if it affects their urinating, then go back to balanced food? If you didn’t see a change quick, I wouldn’t put off having a urinalysis done.

[K-Rae]

I started my 4 dogs onto pre-made raw a month ago. They are currenty getting chicken and beef (carnivora.ca), and mixed raw bones to chew on once or twice a week. I plan on switching them onto a different brand (k9choicefoods.com) and serving beef, bison and llama. No more chicken.
My 9 yr old pom/chi and my 8 yr old german shepherd are urinating way to much. The 10 yr old westie is a little more and the 1 yr old collie/chihuahua (yes I know) is completely normal. I have asked my vet for her opinion and she says switch back to kibble and you won’t have a problem, and if it does continue bring them in. I will not switch back to kibble, and the increased urination is the ONLY negative side effect.
– not drinking any more water (actually was less then when on kibble)
– eating supper at 6:30 out several times before bed at 10-11pm and directly before bed
– urine is clear when they mess in the house over night (not sure which dog, but probably the pom)
– eating 2% of their weight (they are at perfect weight and all extremely fit)
– never had any health problems other than food allergies (why we went to raw)
– normal energy level, maybe slightly increased because they feel good
– the pom has started eating feces again (he did it when he was a pup) * I have reviewed other forums on that and will be adding enzymes as per HDM 🙂
– everyone is defecating properly as per raw, not straining and not overally chalky
I am an educated dog owner, and have done my research before switching to raw. The pre-made works best for us because we work in emergency services and really never know when we will be called out and how long we will be gone. We need to be able to have a friend stop by and feed the dogs and can’t expect someone to feed primal raw for us or spend a long amount of time preparing it. I always keep 2 days of food portioned out into sealed glass containers in the fridge.

I am curious if other people that feed raw have had this problem? Did it resolve it’s self? Is it possible it is the chicken diet? I really don’t know? I am at a loss as to why they are urinating so much. Any help is appreciated.

[barfworld1]

Hi, So sorry to hear about your dog. There are some great tips on how to treat cancer with a natural raw diet. Check out this blog at http://www.barfworld.com/html/IPEzine/TIP_10_2013.html and please let us know if you have any questions.

[Hound Dog Mom]

There are several brands that manufacture pre-mixes. These are some of the most popular:

-The Honest Kitchen
-Sojo’s
-Grandma Lucy’s
-Urban Wolf
-Birkdale Pet Mix
-Dr. Harvey’s
-See Spot Live Longer Dinner Mixes
-U-Stew
-Wysong’s Call of the Wild

[kmarron]

Thank you for the input. I will check out the Marie’s site. Hound Dog Mom, where would I find a pre-mix?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Janet –

If you’re sure the “scooting” is not due to anal gland issues I would bring a stool sample to the vet to check for parasites just in case (certain worms – such as tapeworms – can cause “scooting”).

To help with the stools and the transition to a new food I would add a spoonful of plain canned pumpkin to each meal and supplement with probiotics and digestive enzymes (there’s no need to buy a “pet” supplement, something from the health section for at the grocery store with suffice and likely be cheaper). You can continue the pumpkin and supplements permanently if need be.

Grain-free foods are, unfortunately, pricier than grain-inclusive foods. Earthborn is probably one of the most budget-friendly grain-free foods available. Some other options would be Nutrisource, Taste of the Wild, The Source, Victor, Authority and 4Health (note: Taste of the Wild and 4Health are manufactured by Diamond). NutriSource, Taste of the Wild and Source run about the same price as Earthborn while Victor, Authority and 4Health are slightly cheaper. Authority Grain-Free is available exclusively at Petsmart. The Source and 4Health are available exclusively at Tractor Supply. Earthborn, Taste of the Wild and Nutrisource can be found at most high end pet specialty stores and online. Victor will likely be the most difficult food to locate – I haven’t been able to find an online retailer and it’s not sold in my area but if you can find it, it looks like a fantastic food and it a great bargain.

You’re correct that dry food doesn’t really clean teeth, that’s a myth. I wish it wasn’t though – I’d eat potato chips and cookies all day and use the excuse that it’s for my dental health lol. 🙂 Canned food is actually healthier and more species appropriate (higher moisture content and higher protein levels) so if you can afford to occasionally buy some quality canned food (4Health has some grain-free varieties that are a bargain at only $0.99 per can) that would be great for your dog. Healthy “people food” is good to add to kibble too – eggs, tinned sardines, leftover lean meat, plain yogurt, cottage cheese, low glycemic veggies, etc.

I think raw bones are best for dental health. My dogs eat a raw diet and get raw bones daily – beef ribs, pork necks, turkey necks, chicken backs, etc. If you’re going to buy something from the store I’d go for “natural” chews (make sure they’re made in the US) such as dried tracheas, bully sticks and pig ears – these are species-appropriate (high protein, grain-free) and great for dental health. As far as “treats,” I’d go with high protein meaty treats such as jerky (made in the US of course), grain-free biscuits or freeze-dried raw foods. I’m a big fan of Nature’s Variety Instinct dog biscuits, EVO biscuits and Darford Zero-G biscuits (although I’m not sure if the Darford biscuits are being made anymore 🙁 ). I also feed freeze-dried raw (such as NV Instinct and Stella & Chewy’s) as treats.

[Hound Dog Mom]

HI kmarron –

Have you considered a pre-mix? If you use a pre-mix you just add meat and water, all the vitamins and minerals are in the pre-mix so you don’t have to worry about whether the diet is balanced. There are many pre-mixes available with low glycemic ingredients. And definitely check out the site Marie posted a link to – that site is a wonderful resource for everything dog related.

[InkedMarie]

I replied on the other thread to go to http://www.dogaware.com, I’m pretty sure he has cancer diet ino there.