[Hound Dog Mom]

While high lipase levels don’t always indicate pancreatitis – when they’re that high (3X the normal or greater) it usually is an indication of pancreatitis. By “latent” I’m assuming that the vet is saying it’s underlying chronic pancreatitis that hasn’t flared up yet. Your vet didn’t give you any dietary recommendations – such as a certain level of fat to shoot for? I wouldn’t say you need to quit feeding raw but you should closely monitor his fat intake. The fat levels should be very low (I’d say around 10%) – which can be difficult to find in a raw diet. The OC Raw Fish & Produce formula is pretty low in fat at 12% and the Goat & Produce is only 9%. Another option would be to purchase some lean meat (heart, poultry gizzards, 96% lean ground beef or turkey, whitefish, etc.) and add it to a pre-mix to create a balanced raw meal that is also low in fat. There are some dehydrated foods with low fat levels as well if this is something you’d be open to – The Honest Kitchen’s Zeal (9%), Grandma Lucy’s Pureformance Chicken (9%), Sojo’s Turkey Complete (8%), Sojo’s Beef Complete (8%), Addiction’s Perfect Summer Brushtail (10%), Addiction’s Outback Kangaroo Feast (8%), Addiction’s Steakhouse Beef & Zucchini (8%), Addiction’s Fig’licious Venison Feast (10%). If you aren’t familiar with “dehdyrated foods” – they’re essentially a raw diet that has had the moisture removed, you add water let it stand for a few minutes and it rehydrates to a similar consistency of fresh raw. Dehydrated foods aren’t truly in a “raw” state after the dehydration process (the meats are generally heated to a high enough temperature to kill bacteria) but they are much less processed than kibble and probably the next best thing to raw. I would definitely keep him on digestive enzymes (make sure it contains lipase) and probiotics. I would also recommend supplementing with a pancreas glandular. You may also want to talk with your vet about whether or not your dog could benefit from some additional fat soluble vitamins (A, D, E, K) and, if yes, in what amounts – when a dog isn’t metabolizing fat properly (such as with pancreatitis) they may not be absorbing adequate amounts of these vitamins. I know some other here have had dogs with pancreatitis so hopefully they’ll have more to contribute. Good luck.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 8 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[NicoBoxer]

Hello – I am new here, although I’ve lurked on the DFA site at those threads. This could be long, so bear with me. We rescued a 3-year old boxer last year who had “allergies.” We have two vets, a conventional one, and a holistic one, to whom we travel three hours each way when he needs to see her. We started taking Nico to her when all we were getting from conventional vets was Pred, then antibiotics or antifungals for secondary infections. You know the drill. Since transitioning Nico to a raw diet with supplements (enzymes, probiotics, a Chinese herb formula, and other herbs) Nico has done much better. His coat has improved, he itches much less (almost not at all in the winter). He’s still been on 5 mg of pred every other day, however, and vets agree that this is OK.
That said, we’ve done a few blood work ups on him and each time, all seemed normal except his Lipase. It was through the roof; it has “come down” to something like 4,000 when the high end is something like 1,600. I could be slightly off on that last number. We ultimately decided to do a separate draw and send that blood to a lab at Texas A&M. My husband just heard back form our conventional vet and she said she “got an earful” from the folks in Texas. I am beside myself. They are calling it something like latent pancreatitus or something like that. Has anyone ever heard of this? He has no symptoms that we can see. Every so often he has a soft or mucousy stool but otherwise he is fine and that is only occasional. I’m wondering if anyone has heard anything about this and if so, what is recommended to feed him? He loves his OC Raw turkey and rabbit. We HATE the idea of giving him kibble. And we worry that all the work we’ve done to ease his itchiness will be for naught. Thanks for listening if you’re still with me. Any thoughts would be most appreciated!
Sharon

[mah4angel]

Wanted to post some news about my progress!

I got the salmon oil and Dr. Harvey’s Multivitamin and Mineral supplement and have been adding them to his food already along with some coconut oil.
Tomorrow I should be getting the vitamin e, cod liver oil, and glandular supplements from Swanson, so I’ll be removing the Earthborn from his diet and using the supplements with the chicken grind.
Then I’ll be picking up the Xkaliber from greentripe.com on Tuesday, and will probably be adding that in sometime next week.
I was able to grab some RMB’s and organ meat, too ^_^ I got a whole ton and am doing my two week freeze now. SOOOO excited 😀
I got ox tail, pork necks, chicken feet (omg I never realized how unbelievably creepy those things were until I was walking about the grocery store with a thing of them!), chicken livers, chicken hearts and gizzards, and pork feet. I may have also gotten something else but now I don’t remember. The organ meat is all chicken because beef organs were kind of expensive (don’t recall seeing pork organ meat), and I figured it would all balance out with the RMB’s.
Unfortunately Only Natural Pet is back-ordered on the Super Daily Greens and won’t get it in till the 31st so I won’t be able to add that into my rotation for a little while. Sigh.
So we’re close to a 100% raw diet!! AHHH hehe 😀 I’m sure I will have many many many more questions and concerns along the way but I’m so glad I’ve gotten him all the way to this point ^_^

EDIT: Forgot to mention that I also got a kitchen scale! I am decidedly more excited about this than my wonderful fiancee but I’m so glad I’ll be able to measure his food out properly ^_^

• This reply was modified 12 years, 8 months ago by mah4angel.

[3pooches]

Hi all. I’m new to the forum, but have been reading this site and recommending it to others from quite some time. (Thanks Dr. Mike!)

I’m wondering if any of you have suggestions on how to slow down fast eaters, while still feeding a raw diet. At the moment, I’m using a large stainless steel ball in their bowls, but it doesn’t slow them much. I’ve seen the bowls with sections, but they’re plastic, and I prefer stainless steel and have elevated feeders. Also, a lot of the products I’ve seen are fine for kibble, but wouldn’t work for raw. (I had used tennis balls when I fed kibble, but that’s not an option anymore.)

Thanks!

[Cyndi]

Yes, turkey necks are perfectly safe. They are a staple in my dog’s raw diet. Good luck!

[Hound Dog Mom]

My dogs don’t show a preference for any protein over another and don’t seem to do better or worse on any specific protein. I have fed pheasant once or twice, but the only place I can get it is Hare Today and it’s expensive so it’s something that would be reserved for an occasional treat only. I do buy ground buffalo occasionally from the grocery store to add to a pre-mix but at $9/lb. that’s only a once in a while treat as well. I really don’t believe any specific protein is more or less nutritious than another. I personally stick to chicken, turkey, beef and pork because they’re the cheapest and easiest to get. I don’t feel that feeding more novel proteins would provide any benefit, it would just be more expensive. The only time feeding a novel protein would be desirable is if your dog shows sensitivities to more common proteins or when performing an elimination diet. I would think one of my recipes would give a 50 lb. dog about 4 or 5 servings but I can’t say for sure, it really depends on the dog. I would just start her on the same number of oz. as you’ve been feeding her of a commercial raw food, monitor her body condition and go from there or figure out how how many calories she’s been eating and feed her the same number of calories.

[FreeholdHound]

Can a dog test reactive to certain ingredients, which I agree, can set him off in kibble form … But can tolerate them well in raw form?
Chicken / Turkey kibble is out of the question as well as Salmon /Fish formulas, but raw chicken feet and sardines seem to be Houndie Crack to him. I want to try turkey necks next but don’t know if that’s pushing it.
I want to start incorporating raw into his diet and I was wondering if this is a common thing. As a retired racing Greyhound a raw/kibble mix would have been typically used. And I would like to go back to that type of diet (as opposed to 100% kibble he’s on now).

[FreeholdHound]

PS). I just ordered a bag of the Nature’s Logic Beef formula kibble. After some research I found this and 1 or 2 of their other formulas) to be the only kibble I’ve found that contain NONE of the ingredients that he tested sensitive to : Chicken, turkey, venison, salmon, white fish, soy, corn, milk, oatmeal, and sweet potato – oomph. Chicken, turkey, salmon & sweet potato are the big no no’s in kibble (but okay raw). I like the Victor but I am curious to see what happens with the Natures Logic. I’m aiming for a part kibble part raw diet, so even though the price on the NL is a bit steep compared to the Victor , it may balance out.

[sharfie]

Jules-
The 4% is from the raw food forum and the % to feed if you are feeding a raw diet. I had to switch my puppy to raw a few days ago. He has had loose poops and after trying different ways to clear it up and consulting with the vet, nothing was working. I switched to raw a few days ago and things are much better.

[mah4angel]

Yes! I do believe that we are always reunited with those we love; animal and human. Whether it be in Heaven or in another lifetime, whatever you happen to believe in ^_^

There’s a whole forum topic dedicated to raw dog food menus here: /forums/topic/menus/. I’m totally no raw dog food genie haha and you can see all of my ramblings and questions on there and my current future recipe is the last comment on the thread hehe. I don’t have everything I need to actually feed him his raw diet yet so that’s why I’m not feeding him 100% raw as of yet but I will be soon!

Here is a thread for help with starting a dog on raw dog food: /forums/topic/help-with-starting-my-dog-on-a-raw-diet/ BUT it will take a few months to transition her all the way up the ladder to raw food, so I wouldn’t be super worried about it quite yet 😀 I think the most important thing is to just get her off of Science Diet food. And if you have any of the Science Diet left, PLEASE donate it to a local shelter! I know that Science Diet is not at all optimal for our wonderful furry friends but shelters need all that they can get 🙂

I also wanted to add something that I forgot to my original comment, which is to start feeding raw meaty bones and organ meat (livers, hearts, etc.) when she is fully transitioned to DNA (or another freeze or air-dried raw). RMB’s as we call them are GREAT for dental health! And it’ll be a great introduction to real, raw meat. Pork necks, chicken necks, ox tails, chicken backs, chicken feet, pork feet, etc. are all RMB’s (as opposed to recreational bones like thigh bones, etc.) that are recommended. And the organ meats will supply extra nutrients. Just make sure to freeze them for two weeks just to be on the safe side 🙂

RMB’s and organs (and any table scraps, etc.) should make up no more than 20% of her daily diet (because it will throw off the balance supplied in the pre-made food), so you’ll want to give her maybe one pork neck one day and maybe one chicken heart the next day, and so on and so forth. BUT like I said, this is all a long way off so I wouldn’t focus too much on this portion of the feeding.

In reality, the longest transition time will more than likely be right now, switching from Science Diet to whatever 4-star GRAIN-FREE food (totally forgot to mention that the four-star food should be grain-free) you choose, whether it be Nature’s Domain or something else. This is because her tummy isn’t used to the lack of grains. It’s almost like a detox process. So, that transition will most likely take the longest to complete; probably a month or so.

This is why adding fiber (with things like pureed pumpkin, hemp, chia, and flax seed, etc.) and probiotics/digestive enzymes (with things like yogurt, etc.) is important because it helps to nourish the balance of good and bad bacteria in the gut as well as balancing out any other digestive problems.

I’m trying to pack in a lot of information into one comment so that you won’t have to do too too much fishing for information. It’s stressful, I know! The most important thing is to just pull the trigger and do it. I second-guessed myself and I waited until I felt I had found the perfect food, but no food is 100% perfect. There is no supplementing a wolf’s primitive diet with just one food, try as we might hehe ^_^

[MsDad]

Thanks for the info Hound Dog Mom. Is it just the calcium and phosphorus we need to watch out for or protein as well? I’ve been looking at Nature’s Logic but it has a very high protein content. Everything else looks really good. It just seems like I can’t find a food that has it all….

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi MsDad –

Congrats on the new pup and very good decision on going raw. I have two bloodhounds that are raw fed. I make homemade raw and fed 25% of the diet as green tripe until 8 months old to keep calcium levels low, but in balance with the phosphorus. Green tripe has a balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio (1:1) but low levels of each mineral (only about 0.3%). If you’re going the commercial route the formulas I know to have acceptable calcium levels are: Aunt Jeni’s (Turkey), BARF (Beef, Chicken, Lamb), Darwin’s (Beef), K9 Kraving (Beef, Chicken, Beef & Chicken, Duck), Primal (Beef, Duck, Lamb, Quail, Turkey/Sardine, Venison), Stella & Chewy’s (Beef), Vital Essentials (Fish, Beef). If you can get raw tripe (I order mine from My Pet Carnivore and Hare Today) and wanted to occasionally use a formula higher in calcium you could mix it with tripe.

[MsDad]

Hi, I’m new to the forum and am a firm believer in raw diets. I will be getting a goldendoodle puppy in October who will ultimately be trained to be my service dog. So obviously I want to give him every advantage possible. So far, the best food I’ve found is Primal Rabbit Formula but I wonder if the calcium content is high enough or just right. Would love to hear any/all opinions.

Eddie

[mah4angel]

Hi! I’d like to start out by saying to ChristyGH and dendad, I am SO SO sorry for your losses! I know it’s easy to feel bad about your choice of diet for your babies but it is absolutely NOT your fault!! We all can see how much love you had for your babies and all of us have been there! You had every reason to believe that you were doing the best for your babies and no one should ever begrudge you for it, including yourself <3

I’m on my way to feeding my Louie (a 10-pound Silky) 100% raw and had a few suggestions myself.

His previous owners had him on pretty much whatever was on sale at the grocery store/whatever they decided to pick up from Costco that day (Pedigree, Purina etc.). The one he was on when we took him home was Purina Puppy Chow (we got him four months ago and he’s three, not a puppy anymore).

I’ve personally found that it was easier to transition him from the CRAP he was eating before slowly up the ladder of great-quality foods. I would buy small batches of each new food (5-10 pounds if available) which would last him for a month or so and then move on to a higher quality kibble. Every time I’ve upgraded his food, he’s picked out the old one from his bowl! ^_^

It’s important to mention how to transition a dog. You have to transition SLOWLY, very very slowly. You’re going to keep a certain ratio of new food to old food for a week OR if her bowel movements change, wait until they turn to normal to move onto the next ratio. At first, have 25% of the new food, and 75% of the old food. Then (once everything is normal) do 50% new 50% old. Finally, 75% new, 25% old until it’s 100% new food.

My suggestion (after going through this whole process) would be to do this (remember to ALWAYS properly transition your pup between each step and add probiotics/digestive enzymes and fiber):

-Change from Science Diet to a four-star kibble (something like Nature’s Domain: http://www.naturesdomainpetfood.com/ which is sold at Costco in HUGE bags so it might not be the best for a little one like yours)

-Then from a four-star kibble to a five-star kibble (like Innova Prime: http://www.petco.com/product/118780/Innova-Prime-Grain-Free-Beef-And-Lamb-Adult-Dry-Dog-Food.aspx?CoreCat=OnSiteSearch, or Earthborn Holistic: http://www.petflow.com/product/earthborn-holistic/earthborn-holistic-primitive-natural-grain-free-dry-dog-food). I HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend Earthborn Holistic products, they are GREAT quality and my Louie adores the Primitive Natural kibble.

-Then start SLOWLY adding in wet food to the kibble (like the Earthborn dinners: http://www.petflow.com/product/earthborn-holistic/earthborn-holistic-duke-s-din-din-gourmet-dinner-wet-dog-food).

-Then, switch from the five-star kibble to something that has raw in it like Nature’s Variety Instinct Raw Boost food (which has bits of freeze-dried raw in it): http://www.petflow.com/product/natures-variety/nature-s-variety-instinct-grain-free-raw-boost-venison-meal-lamb-meal-dry-dog-food. Continue to add in the wet food.

-Then go to a 100% raw kibble like DNA (air-dried raw, stands for Dried N Alive): http://www.dnapetfood.com/node/20, or something similar. At first, I would continue to add in the wet food to this, but then I would transition her to 100% DNA (or whatever food you decide to use).

-And then transition from that to a pre-made frozen raw OR you could totally cut costs and make your own (which is what I’m doing), and then you’ll have 100% control over what she’s eating 😀

• This reply was modified 12 years, 8 months ago by mah4angel.

[dendad]

No I haven’t considered raw. I guess it sounded unhealthy to me, but it looks like I have nothing to worry about. Thanks for the link. I’ll check it out.

[GizmoMom]

Have you consider switching to raw or pre-made raw? My picky dog ate it right up. When he was on kibble, he was very picky and refuses to eat. Now that’s he on raw, he eats everything. Even when I switch him to new brands of pre-made raw, he doesn’t hesitate to eat.

Go through this list and see which one you might want to try.
/dog-food-reviews/raw/5-star/

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Jessica1 –

The Organix puppy formula is 1.05% calcium and has 2.89 g. calcium per 1,000 kcal. – so yes, it’s a good choice. It would be perfectly fine to use both grain-inclusive and grain-free foods in a rotational feeding program. Many people are under the assumption that dry food is good for dental health – you’re not the only one. For the most part, this is a myth. Some dogs that thoroughly chew their kibble may may derive some benefit in comparison to a soft food however this benefit is minimal and will not be enough to prevent periodontal disease and – in my experience – most dogs don’t thoroughly chew kibble and therefore would receive no benefit. The only food that promotes dental health is a raw meaty bones diet and any dog eating commercial food, be it kibble or canned food, will need their teeth brushed on a regular basis or they will get eventually develop periodontal disease to some degree. Your vet telling you that your dog will have good dental health as long as he eats kibble would be the equivalent of your dentist telling you that you don’t need to brush your teeth as long as you eat crunchy foods – kind of silly, right? About 85% of dogs fed commercial foods over the age of 3 have some degree of periodontal disease, oftentimes it goes unnoticed by owners. Many people think “doggie breath” is normal, but it’s not. A dog’s breath should have no odor. All of the Organix canned foods appear that they’re labeled for adult maintenance, however if you’re only using the canned food as a topper and the bulk of the puppy’s diet is going to be a dry food approved for growth or all life stages this is fine. You could also top the Organix puppy kibble with a canned food labeled for growth from another brand, there’s no reason you can mix different brands of kibble and canned food. I hope that helps!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi londoncalling1996 –

That’s too bad your store didn’t carry any of the foods. 🙁 If you’re not opposed to online ordering there are many sites that sell a wider variety of foods than you could find in a store and they also typically have lower prices – most also offer free shipping with no weight limit when you spend a certain amount of money (usually orders over $49). I’d recommend checking out wag.com, chewy.com, petflow.com and naturalk9supplies.com. Also the new lists should give you many additional options to choose from.

I definitely feel that, if it’s financially feasible, non-dry foods should be fed as a sole diet or at least in addition to kibble. Dry food is actually the worst thing to feed a dog – however to to budget and time constraints it, understandably, comprises the bulk of most dog’s diets. I urge you to check out this article Dr. Marty Goldstein (one of my all time favorite veterinarians) posted on his blog, it ranks the different types of food from best to worst: drmarty.com/what-should-i-feed-my-pet-for-best-health/

If you add wet food you should count account for this in her daily food intake – just monitor her weight and if she’s gaining too much start feeding a little less. One of my all time favorite wet food toppers (especially for large breed puppies) is Tripett. I like Tripett for several reasons: 1) high protein/moderate fat/low carbohydrate (ideal); 2) it has a balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio but very low amounts of each, so it can effectively be used to lower the calcium to phosphorus ratio in any food fed to a large breed puppy without the risk of throwing off the balance and 3) dogs go absolutely nuts for it (people hate it – if you feed it you’ll see why – but they love it). The only thing I want to note with Tripett is that it’s not a complete and balanced food (it’s just canned green tripe) so if you do feed it make sure it doesn’t exceed 20% of the meal or you could throw off the nutritional balance. Some other more balanced canned foods that I like that could account for over 20% of the meal are: ZiwiPeak, Addiction, Nature’s Logic, Nature’s Variety Instinct and Merrick. Dr. Mike has a great compilation of high quality canned foods over on the review site as well. If you’re looking for a quality yet budget friendly canned food (canned food can be quite pricey, especially when feeding a large breed puppy) I’d recommend checking out 4Health (available at Tractor Supply, $0.99 per can), Pure Balance (available at Walmart, $1 per can), Kirkland Cuts in Gravy (available at Costco, $0.79 per can), Whole Earth Farms (available at many online retailers about $1.50 per can) – these foods are all 4 – 5 star quality. Some other toppers you could use are dehdyrated foods (i.e. The Honest Kitchen, Grandma Lucy’s, etc.) – these foods are about the same consistency as a stew type canned food when rehydrated, a balanced frozen or freeze-dried commercial raw food (freeze-dried rehydrates to canned food consistency) or fresh toppers such as sardines, eggs, plain yogurt or left over lean meat or steam veggies from your dinner.

Digestive aids aren’t necessary, but many feel they’re beneficial. Many of the regulars here supplement with probiotics and enzymes. I don’t supplement with either because my dogs eat a raw diet (naturally occurring enzymes) and consume raw green tripe (rich in enzymes and probiotics) and kefir (rich in probiotics) on a regular basis. If feeding cooked food only (like kibble and canned) I do feel that enzymes and probiotics can provide benefit.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi DellUSN –

Yes – I feel that the sooner a rotational feeding program is implemented the better. There are several reasons foods should be rotated – there is no “best” or “perfect” food so switching brands will help to mitigate the shortcomings of feeding any one brand for an extended period of time, feeding a variety of foods helps to foster a strong and diverse population of microorganisms in the gut and by having several “go to” foods you’ll be able to make a quick switch in the event of a recall or formula change. Some also believe that rotating foods helps to decrease the risk of the dog developing a sensitivity to a particular ingredient later in life.

Initially, you may need to gradually transition your pup when switching brands. You would do this by feeding 25% new/75% old for a few days, then moving to 50/50 for a few days, then 75/25 for a few days, then transitioning entirely to the new food. If your pup is experiencing loose stools during the transition a spoonful of plain canned pumpkin and/or probiotics may help. My two dogs were both started on a rotational feeding plan upon coming home at 8 weeks old and neither experienced any digestive upset – but it does depend on the dog.

As far as which brands to feed, for the next four months or so I would recommend keeping him on a controlled calcium food. Any of the kibbles on my list would be comparable to Wellness CORE. I’m currently in the process of updating the list and by the end of this week or beginning of next week I should have a revised grain-free list, a grain-inclusive list and a raw list posted.

There really is no rhyme or reason to rotational feeding – everyone has their own method. I haven’t fed kibble quite a few years but for my last dog that ate kibble I got a new brand with a new protein source at the end of each bag and added a variety of canned food and/or fresh food “toppers” daily. When I got Gertie (currently two years old) I rotated between The Honest Kitchen’s (dehydrated) Love, Embark, Thrive and Zeal formulas and fed a different variety each day, I also mixed in a can of Tripett with her breakfast and gave her either a raw egg, a tin or sardines or plain yogurt at dinner. When she was 8 months old I switched her to a raw diet. Mabel (my one year old) transitioned to a raw diet as soon as she came home at 8 weeks. On their homemade raw diets my dogs get something completely different at each meal.

I would highly recommend adding “toppers” if you’re feeding kibble as the sole diet. Toppers will boost the “species-appropriateness” by adding some extra protein, moisture and providing your dog with some fresh, less processed food. Some people believe canned foods are unhealthy, however they’re actually much healthier than dry food – they’re less processed, higher in protein/lower in carbohydrates and have a high moisture content. The same applies to dehydrated foods and raw foods. If you’re adding a balanced canned, dehydrated or raw food you can top with as much as you want. “People food” is great too – any left over lean meat or veggies from your dinner, eggs, tinned sardines, plain yogurt, kefir and cottage cheese are all cheap and very healthy foods (just keep unbalanced extras such as these to 20% or less of the meal or you could risk throwing of the nutritional balance of the kibble).

Hope that helps! 🙂

[kcarter137]

I have been lurking around on a few of the “Raw Food” Forums and decided to do homemade-cooked food. I would do raw but my boyfriend has vetoed it (hopefully I can slowly incorporated some raw items without him knowing). I have Dr. Beckers book, I have read it a few times and understand that I am going to need to supplement her food due to lack of bones but still have some questions. We are going currently reintroducing foods after being on a elimination diet of pork and sweet potatoes for the last few months due to her allergies. So far we have discovered she is allergic to rice and chicken. She can have fish. I still have a few more weeks of reintroducing items. I know the rice irrelevant. The dermatologist she’s seeing said that if she is allergic to chicken then she cannot have any “feathered” protein.
Does anyone have any experience with this?
Will I need to supplement her feed with anything to make up for the lack of “feathered protein”?

[mah4angel]

Hello all!

So I decided to create a separate topic here on the supplements forum specifically to ask for suggestions for a cheap human multi with no calcium that would be safe/acceptable for dogs. I’m working on getting my Louie on a 100% raw diet but HDM pointed out that the recipe I have will be deficient in certain vitamins (d and e) and minerals (manganese) so I’d like to supplement with a multi. Here’s what I plan on feeding:

Morning:
1/2 cup whole grind (rotating between protain sources)
1/2 cup XKALIBER green tripe grind (greentripe.com)
Alternating between Dr. Harvey’s and Daily Greens super food supplements
Swanson’s glandular supplement
Omega-3 source (salmon oil, whole sardines, etc.)
No-calcium multi
Possibly organic virgin coconut oil if it doesn’t throw everything off

Evenings:
RMB’s

I don’t know that this is adequate but, it’s what I’ve got so far 😀

[cearaandtroy]

We bought our pup some chicken leg quarters to make the big jump to raw. I was hoping he would take right to it, but unfortunately he is very resistant to the idea. I guess that’s what happens when you’ve been fed science diet since you were a puppy! I really really want him to get this, does anyone know of any ways to convince him to eat the raw meat? If I cut off small chunks and make it seem like a treat, he sometimes takes it and is very excited. Otherwise, he licks and might half heartedly gnaw on the leg quarter before losing interest and finding something else to do. So far, I’ve tried searing the outside and that got his attention for a few minutes but he again left it. What can I do??

[Michelle]

I also need to watch the fat content…I think that’s why Summer didn’t do so well with her inflammation when I was feeding based off of body weight. So, I know pork tenderloin and sirloin, fish (which I will cook) and some cuts of beef are leaner…I will have to use those. No just buying whatever is the cheapest. I’ll have to check out those pre-mixes – I did try one of THK’s about a year ago…Summer didn’t like it at all. And the person I worked with to balance the diets is a stickler for getting the correct amount of minerals/vitamins…so in that person’s eyes any other type of protein will throw the whole diet off kilter. I really don’t agree with that whole way of thinking either. Thanks!!

[cearaandtroy]

Thank you both! I have been trying the past couple days. The day before I started I gave him about 1/4 of a pound of lean ground beef just to get him excited and he gobbled it up so I was hopeful. I bought chicken leg quarters for him to start with and natures balance limited ingredient venison and sweet potato food just to supplement with while I was getting the hang of feeding raw. My problem now is, he won’t eat. He hasn’t eaten in a day and a half, I tried a chicken leg quarter and he licked it and half heartedly gnawed on it for a couple minutes, then left it alone. I tried keeping him interested but figured he just wasn’t hungry, because he seemed to like the taste by the way he was licking it. But he also hasn’t touched any of his kibble, though I think he likes it, because if I offer a piece as a treat he is very excited! I guess he is fasting himself because I left the kibble out all this time and it’s untouched. But it worries me. He’s a year old, is this normal? Should I try the raw chicken again? I was thinking of keeping ALL food away from him until he was actually hungry, then offering the leg quarter to him, but that’s hard to do when you live with your mother in law, and her dogs eat beneful, or when your toddler sneaks bites of pizza to your pup.

Basically, I need help with ideas on how to get him interested in the chicken leg! I really want to do this raw diet, but right now I’m feeling a little let down. I know it’s made to taste good to them, but I wish he would at least eat the natural balance over beneful or science diet!

[Michelle]

Hello, just need some opinions. I have 2 Saint Bernards – Summer and Norton (both 4 yrs old) I was doing homemade raw for both – for about 5 months. Summer didn’t do so good on it, Norton did ok, but not the best either. I decided to work with someone to balance out their diets which they have been doing great on for the last few months. My issue is that the main meat is Turkey and I want to change proteins. So, I was thinking do to my balanced diet 3-4 days of the week and then use a pre-made raw the other days to switch up the meats. I was thinking of using OC Raw Dog, Darwins and there is a dehydrated food Big Dog Naturals that sounds halfway decent…Thoughts anyone? Thanks!!

[Hound Dog Mom]

I agree with Sandy – active dogs should have high fat/high protein foods that are calorie-dense. Just because he’s a “police K9” wouldn’t make his dietary needs significantly different than another other highly active dog. I have two extremely active bloodhounds and they eat a grain-free raw diet with protein levels ranging from 45% – 55% and fat levels ranging from 30% – 40%. We keep carbohydrate levels low. Inked Marie had a great suggestion with Dr. Tim’s (I’d recommend the Momentum formula which is 35/25). The NutriSource Super Performance mentioned by Sandy is another good option. Some other dry performance foods I’d recommend checking out: Native Performance Level 4 (35/25), Pro Pac High Performance (30/20), Artemis Pro Power (30/20), Victor Hi Pro Plus (30/20), Redpaw X-Series Perform 3 (32/20), RedPaw Poweredge 38K (38/25) and Abady Maintenance and Stress (32/29).

[pugmomsandy]

If you’re wanting to get away from Purina, Nutrisource has a Performance 30/20 and Super Performance 32/21 formulas. Your active dog can use a diet high in protein and fat. Of course a good raw meaty bone (RMB) would be great for him too.

[guidosmom]

I should also add, both dogs, especially the younger dog, are sensitive to diets super high in fat. They seem to do fine on moderately high fat diets, but not extremely high fat diets.

[guidosmom]

I have two Jack Russell Terriers. One is 14+, the other is 8. Both have always had fairly sensitive digestive systems. They had been on evo red meat, then switched to Orijen red about 6 months ago. They did fairly well on this. In addition they always got some veggies, plain yogurt, and cooked organic chicken breast mixed in. About a month ago my older dog got sick with some kind of intestinal issue and has since been refusing his food. We have tried all kinds of wet food products, canned pumpkin, etc… some he likes for a day, then refuses the next day. We have been to the vet multiple times, and everything has come back normal. He consistently likes treats though, but I try not to allow him to have many. He also will sometimes eat wet food off a spoon or my finger, just not in a bowl. He started seeing an acupuncturist who gave us some samples of darwin’s natural selections beef and veggie. She recommended poaching it lightly first for him. I also read on the darwin website they recommend doing this for picky eaters or older dogs. He LOVED it, and has since eaten consistently for two days in a row without any vomiting or diarrhea episodes. This is huge for him. I tried mixing the darwin’s in with some of his kibble. He picks all the darwin’s out, and leaves the kibble, making it a little difficult to transition. Our other dog happily eats it all. My question, is poaching the food first recommended only during the transition phase? Or is this recommended for all older/picky dogs? Wouldn’t this take away all the benefits of a raw diet? I am only lightly poaching it, so like to think there is still some benefit. Also, because he is picking out and refusing the orijen (kibble), but eating the darwin’s, will this completely shock his system? I would appreciate any advice or tips anyone has about switching their sensitive, older, picky dog to a raw food diet. I love my older guy, and seeing him refuse food breaks my heart. Thanks in advance!

[Cyndi]

Hi Ceara,

I think Patty answered your questions better than I could have. I didn’t have too much of a problem with my Bailey choking. Even when she got down to a piece the size that I thought was too big for her to swallow, and she tried to swallow it, she made sure to chew it a few more times and then swallowed it. I don’t think you have to worry too much about your dog choking. The bones in chicken crunch right up and once they get the hang of using their teeth the way they were meant to, they’ll have no problems. Oh, and, like Patty said, when I started, I did remove the skin from the chicken. Even now, sometimes I’ll take most of the skin off.

They say to fast for one meal before starting on raw. I feed Bailey twice a day, so, when I started, I fed her dinner one day, skipped breakfast the next morning and then started her on raw for dinner. As you may have read early on I had a few concerns, but I feel silly about all the concerns I had. Your dog’s gut just has to get used to eating & digesting food that it was meant to have. You may see pieces of bone in his poop some, that’s normal, and he may even throw up some. Don’t give up, just hang in there. You’ll be doing the very best for your dog feed him a species appropriate diet and he’ll thank you for it! 🙂

[theBCnut]

Hi Ceara

Some dogs do need all the tricks to start on raw and some just get it. If your dog is a scarfer then you may have to hold on to the chunk of food or attach it to something until he gets the hand of it. How big was yous dog? Sometimes giving them pieces that are too big to eat does the trick. Mine started well with chicken and turket necks. They are a big chunk of food but the bones are smaller. Usually when starting raw they don’t suggest starting with high fat meats because the sudden increase in fats alone can cause stomach upset. In fact to start with they even take the skin off of turkey and chicken.

[cearaandtroy]

Cyndi, thank you so much for this post. You asked a lot of the same questions I needed answered, and I was freaking out over the idea of feeding raw being so challenging. But it seems like you have gotten the hang of it pretty well! So I hope you don’t mind if I add in a few questions.

My pup Troy is a pretty good sized guy, 52 pounds. He just gobbles down his kibble so I’m worried about starting him off on chicken legs/wings/etc. I don’t want him to choke on the bones. How did you prevent that from happening when you first started with your pup? Or should I just start with bigger pieces of rmb?

Also, last night I was making some pork ribs so I thought I would let him try a bit raw to see how he would do. The silly dog scoffed at it, wanted nothing to do with it! I kept trying and he refused to eat it. Did this happen with you? It makes me feel like raw feeding will be an even bigger challenge than I thought. I finally got him to eat it after I lightly cooked it (no cooked bones, of course), but that’s not exactly raw haha! Do I just have to fast him and introduce raw food when he’s hungry? I’m so unsure about everything!

[Cyndi]

Hi Ceara. You are in the right place, for starters. I have been feeding my dog raw for a little over two months now. I did a TON of research online and eventually, thank god, found this site. This forum section and the wonderful people on here, have been a HUGE help. Here is a link to the thread I started before I began feeding raw, while I was still in the research/question stage:

/forums/topic/help-with-starting-my-dog-on-a-raw-diet/

It WAS overwhelming, I do know that. Read thru that thread and maybe that will help. I asked alot of questions, so maybe some of that will help you…

I can’t help on the canned food topic, I’m not that knowledgeable, but I guess if you just go to the review section and look under some of the 4 and 5 star wet foods, that would be a good place to start. Also Kudos to you for not listening to your boyfriend about Beneful! That wouldn’t have been any better than the Science Diet.

Good Luck! 🙂

[cearaandtroy]

Hi all, my name is Ceara and I’m new to the forum.
We just adopted a beautiful year old husky/labrador mix from ACS, poor thing was going to be put to sleep so we just had to pick him up and bring him home. He is wonderful with our 18 month old son, and I imagine he’s going to be very active once he heals from his surgery, he was neutered 5 days ago.
I found out he was being fed science diet his whole life at the shelter! Yuck! And when we brought him home, my boyfriend thought beneful was a better option because it had vegetables on the bag, and pretty sure that food is even worse! What I’m getting at is, this little guy is family now and I want him to be as healthy and happy as possible here.

I want him to eat completely raw if possible, but we are on a bit of a budget so I may just do mostly raw and then a good quality canned and dry food to make sure he is eating enough. I have no idea where to start, and my google search came up with mostly useless information. What kind of foods would I feed him, how would I start him on a raw diet? He’s 52 lbs so about how much should he eat? Any information you have for me would help a lot!

[Hershy]

Thank you, HDM!
All was very helpful – I really appreciate your feedback on the dog foods, and also, the calculations for figuring the grams per 1000Kcal. I couldn’t get my head around it, but now I’m back, thanks to your detailed lesson. : ). I’ll keep reading. So many very interesting and helpful posts. I’m sure I’ll be back with other questions, too, particularly regarding the raw food diet. I was feeding my 4 big dogs a raw diet before Charlotte was bred. Also giving them a daily vitamin supplement tablet (which was most likely not the best form of those vitamins and minerals…and maybe I didn’t even need it) I have a lot to learn about it, but I’m thinking that what they were getting was WAY better than the processed foods available. I stopped at the time of pregnancy due to lack of confidence for what gestating pups should get, as well as the lack of time to prepare it. My dogs ate as well as we did at that time. I had fun shopping for bargains – only buying proteins I could find for less than $1/lb. I was surprised at how often those were available so I could stock up : ). But that is another topic and another forum… so finding the best kibble I can is very important to me for my guy and gals.

Thanks, again-

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hey EHubbman –

Glucosamine and chondroitin are fine for puppies. A dog’s natural diet (raw) would be very rich in glucosamine and chondroitin as cartilage and bones contain high levels. Dogs foods, even those with added glucosamine and chondroitin, don’t contain enough to say so – so I wouldn’t worry about it’s presence in a kibbled dog food.

I have not been able to find any evidence suggesting that supplementing a large breed puppy’s diet with glucosamine can be harmful, however I don’t believe it to be necessary either. My two get lots of RMB’s so I know their diet is rich in glucosamine and chondroitin – I probably won’t add any supplements until they’re seniors. I do, however, typically recommend that large and giant breed dogs eating processed foods receive supplemental glucosamine and chondroitin (or whole foods providing these nutrients) starting between 1 and 2 years of age (when they’re young it can be a low dose, just for maintenance).

This is an excerpt from an article about large and giant breed puppy nutrition written by integrative veterinarian Dr. Susan Wynn:

“There are no studies so far that indicate whether it is effective or harmful to supplement with glucosamine to large breed puppies because of their risk of DOD. In general, I wait until I recognize a risk factor in a dog.”

[marmarx89]

I’ve been wanting to start my Louie on a raw diet for awhile, he has been on kibble and his stools have always been soft and I just didn’t feel like he was getting the best nutrition possible. I’ve been reading so much on feeding raw and all the benefits and I’m so excited to start it with him. I originally was going to feed commercial frozen raw, I bought a bag of the Primal Venison nuggets, but with his size (58.5lbs) he would go through 3 bags a week of that stuff ($90/week). So I started researching the Raw Prey Model and that seemed more feasible. Ive just started shopping around for everything, but I had a couple of questions I was hoping to run by you guys. I think I may have spent a little too much time creeping on here already, I feel like I already know everyone and their dogs haha. Anyway, I was wondering first how long you freeze your meats when you buy them in the store. I read that for the pork it has to be for at least 2 weeks but what about other meats? Also, in terms of adding the vitamins and supplements is that a necessity or just depends on what you like to feed? Im thinking of including some vegetables to his diet, do they have to be cooked first and pureed? or are raw vegetables allowed. Finally, the addition of vitamins/minerals that some people include in their diets are those something that I should definitely be including because of this type of diet or its just more a personal preference type of thing. Thanks in advance for any answers.

[theBCnut]

Most of the things I’ve read said 2 weeks, some have said even shorter if it is a deep freeze.

[Cyndi]

Oh ok, thanks guys! 🙂 & was mah4angel correct with 3 weeks? I can’t find anything online about how long or even that you should freeze it…

[Hound Dog Mom]

Cod liver oil is lower in omega 3’s than most other oils and in order to supply enough cod liver oil to give adequate amounts of omega 3’s you probably end up with excessive levels of vitamin a and d. I give each of my dogs a 1,000 mg. capsule of Carlson brand cod liver oil daily (provides 250 IU vitamin D, 2,000 IU vitamin A and 240 mg. omega 3’s). Dogs should receive about 2.3 mg. manganese for every pound of food they eat on a dry matter basis (so for a raw food which is high in moisture this would equate to about 0.6 mg. per pound fed). Ground flax has 0.2 mg. per tbs. Some other foods rich in manganese pecans, pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds and oysters. I would say that, yes, a human multivitamin should have adequate levels of vitamin e. I would make sure your dog is getting around 50 IU per 25 lbs. (the minimum dietary requirement is lower than thus but vitamin e requirements increase with omega 3 supplementation and it it has antioxidant benefits so for this reason I think it’s important to give a little more).

[Hound Dog Mom]

You freeze pork to eliminate trichinosis (as mah4angels pointed out) and also Aujeszky’s Disease and tapeworm cysts. Although the likelihood of any of these things actually being present in commercially raised pork is small, it’s better to be safe than sorry.

[mah4angel]

Yes, I believe Trichinosis.

[Cyndi]

Well, I’ve been feeding raw for 2 months and her gas just started recently, that’s why I was wondering if it might be the liver or the rabbit grind and why. & do you know why to freeze the pork for 3 weeks? Parasites or something?

[mah4angel]

I believe it was 3 weeks, but I could very well be wrong about that.
Louie has been gassy since we got him and I can’t figure out if it’s better or worse on his partially raw diet. It could totally be the detox from the raw 🙂 Supposedly that’s one of the side effects of juice detoxes in humans, as well.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Shihtzumom –

Unfortunately that supplement wouldn’t be safe for a dog. It contains green tea extract which contains caffeine, caffeine is toxic to dogs – this was actually the main reason I asked for the ingredients list, most “green” supplements for humans contain green tea extract. It also contains grape extract – grapes are toxic to dogs (grape seed extract is okay though).

If you’re feeding an unbalanced diet and want some extra nutritional assurance I’d go with a basic one a day type human multi that has no calcium or that is low in calcium (<5% dv) so you don’t throw of the calcium to phosphorus ratio of the meal. For a small dog I’d give just 1/4 of a human tablet. No, the green supplement I have posted wouldn’t be a substitute for a multi, it will however provide trace nutrients and immune boosting effects and would be great to give in addition to a multi. You could use the glandular supplement as well – you can give this as daily if you want or just a few times a week (my dogs get a capsule of a glandular three days per week).

[Cyndi]

Hey Everyone! I have a question about pork necks. I haven’t given these to Bailey yet and I’d like to start. Right now I alternate chicken backs and turkey necks for her dinners and I’d like to start adding pork necks into the rotation. Do I have to freeze these for a certain length of time before I feed them, and why? I think I’ve read before that I do have to, but I couldn’t find where I read it.

Also, another question that has me wondering….. Bailey gets gas, really stinky gas, but I haven’t been able to narrow it down on what it is. I believe it might either be from the turkey livers or the whole ground rabbit carcass. Any ideas which it might be and why? She never had a problem with gas up until I started feeding those two things, which I started right about the same time, so I can’t figure it out which one it might be…

[mah4angel]

Do you think Dr. Harvey’s would be the best of both worlds as far as supplementation? It has both vitamins and super foods, whereas as the Young Again has more vitamins and the Daily Greens has more super foods.
Because I’ll be adding green tripe into his diet (within the next week, hopefully), it seems that he won’t really need the added probiotics, enzymes, or fiber that the Young Again product offers.
The Daily Greens is essentially what I was looking for but now I’m wondering if that’ll all be enough or if I would also need to add a multivitamin or something. AH idk 🙁

[mah4angel]

I also had questions about supplementation with vegetables and with fish oil!
Costco has Wild Alaskan Salmon oil pills (not in the pump like they have at Pet Smart), would these be okay? Coated or uncoated? Do I poke a hole in them and squeeze out the oil? How many mg’s of omega-3’s and 6’s does he need (what should I look for on the label as far as levels are concerned with a supplement like this)?
I also found some Herbacil Artichoke Dietary Supplement at Target, it’s in a little bottle/vile thingy in liquid form, I guess, and it contains artichoke, grapefruit, fennel, prickly pear, apple cider vinegar, and L-Carnitine. What fruit/vegetable supplements would you guys recommend? I just sort of didn’t feel right about the Herbacil (idk, I guess I was looking for something with more superfoods?), and it was a little pricey. I also had no idea how much I should be adding to his food. Maybe a powdered supplement would be better?

Right now, here’s what I’m doing for Louie:
1/2 cup raw whole chicken grind
1/2 tablespoon of golden flax (for fiber and a little extra omega-3’s and 6’s)
1/2 tablespoon of low fat plain yogurt (enzymes/probiotics)
1/2 cup of Earthborn Holistic Primitive Natural (I’ve kept this in so far because I have yet to figure out my supplementation and this formula has omega-3 sources (fish) very high up on the ingredient list as well as fruits and vegetables… Also, it wasn’t cheap to buy and I still have quite a bit left)

I’m hoping to get here:
1/2 cup raw whole grind (alternating between chicken, beef, pork, etc.)
1/2 cup XKALIBER green tripe grind (greentripe.com)
Some sort of fruit/vegetable supplement (for antioxidants and vitamins)
Some sort of omega-3 supplement (fish oil, whole fish, etc.)
RMB’s: I was giving him pork necks (which were GREAT, he LOVED them!!) but then my mother-in-law cooked them -___________- So now I’ll have to go out and somehow find pork necks for him and freeze them for 3 weeks before I can start giving them to him again, or find some chicken necks or something comparable for his size (he’s a little silky; 10 pounds)
I believe everyone said that I wouldn’t need to add any fiber, enzymes or probiotics because of the green tripe, but I’d like to be sure. Also, any fruit/vegetable supplement should contain fiber, anyway.

Your advice, as always, is much appreciated!

• This reply was modified 12 years, 9 months ago by mah4angel.

[DieselJunki]

It’s a sister group to the yahoo group Raw Chat and Raw Feed. They just put it on facebook. And any comments about things with plants are automatically deleted as wolves in the wild don’t eat such things and if they do it comprises of such a small bit of their diet that why bother feed.

[Hound Dog Mom]

What? I’m not familiar with either of these Facebook groups (I actually don’t have a Facebook) but I can’t understand why someone wouldn’t be in support of natural supplements for an elderly dog with arthritis? Many glucosamine and chondroitin supplements are actually animal-derived (usually shellfish, shark or bovine or chicken cartilage). There are also many “animal” based supplements such as green lipped mussel, sea cucumber and velvet antler that have been proven effective. I still don’t, however, see why any one would be opposed to a plant-derived supplement either. It’s true that raw diets are high in naturally occurring GAG’s but some dogs with orthopedic issues need more than that and anti-inflammatories can help a lot in many cases.