[mah4angel]

Hello all!

So I decided to create a separate topic here on the supplements forum specifically to ask for suggestions for a cheap human multi with no calcium that would be safe/acceptable for dogs. I’m working on getting my Louie on a 100% raw diet but HDM pointed out that the recipe I have will be deficient in certain vitamins (d and e) and minerals (manganese) so I’d like to supplement with a multi. Here’s what I plan on feeding:

Morning:
1/2 cup whole grind (rotating between protain sources)
1/2 cup XKALIBER green tripe grind (greentripe.com)
Alternating between Dr. Harvey’s and Daily Greens super food supplements
Swanson’s glandular supplement
Omega-3 source (salmon oil, whole sardines, etc.)
No-calcium multi
Possibly organic virgin coconut oil if it doesn’t throw everything off

Evenings:
RMB’s

I don’t know that this is adequate but, it’s what I’ve got so far 😀

[Hound Dog Mom]

Looks good! 🙂 With the multi all your bases should be covered. You could add small amounts of fruits/veggies, dairy or eggs a few times a week if you wanted (although it wouldn’t be necessary with the multi and green food supplement). The coconut oil definitely won’t throw anything off – my dogs get coconut oil daily. If you didn’t want to go the multi route – supplementing with e, giving a capsule of cod liver oil daily or tinned sardines once or twice a week and giving some ground nuts/seeds a few times a week would probably create a fairly balanced recipe, given you’ll be rotating protein sources frequently. It definitely is possible to balance a recipe using whole foods, I just suggest s multi in the even someone doesn’t want to go through the hassle. If you do want to go the multi route (and you probably could get away with just adding the multi every other day) some reasonably priced multivitamins that would work – Twinlab Daily One or Duel Tabs, NOW Foods Liquid Multi Gels, Swanson also has a daily multi.

[mah4angel]

Okay! And the cod liver oil would not supplement the omega-3’s, correct (I believe you said before that in order to get enough omega-3’s through cod liver oil, you’d be getting excessive amounts of vitamin a and d)? I actually am going to try to go the non-supplement route especially considering I have a ton of flax seed that I bought at Costco that is a possible source of manganese if I supplement with it correctly, and because I just think it’s an all-around better option for my Louie.

SO I’m wondering if this will work for the morning:
1/2 cup whole grind (rotating between protein sources)
1/2 cup XKALIBER green tripe grind (greentripe.com)
Alternating between Dr. Harvey’s and Daily Greens super food supplements
Swanson’s glandular supplement (not sure of the dosage since it’s a human supplement)
1/8 capsule of 200 IU vitamin e (25 IU)
Salmon oil (should I give this daily or maybe alternate between this and ground flax seed/others nuts and seeds?)
Daily cod liver oil (not sure how much to give my 10 pound dog – I know you give your babies one 1.000 mg capsule)

I was also looking at urinary tract boosters because Louie apparently has crystals in his urine and a much higher risk for UTI’s and kidney/bladder stones.

I feel so close to getting this down AH 🙂

[mah4angel]

I feel like 1/8th of a capsule of the cod liver oil should do it (just based on the ratio of your dogs’ weights to mine) but then again, I really just don’t know.

1/8 is also the perfect amount because I make Louie’s food in batches of 8 servings.

[mah4angel]

Well, I think I’m going to try for this (updated a little bit after some research on my own):

Morning:
1/2 cup whole grind (rotating between protein sources)
1/2 cup XKALIBER green tripe grind (greentripe.com)
Alternating between Dr. Harvey’s and Only Natural Pet Super Daily Greens super food supplements (every other day)
Swanson’s glandular supplement (still not sure of the dosage nor how often to administer since it’s a human supplement)
1/8 capsule of 200 IU vitamin e (25 IU)
Rotating between salmon oil (1/2 tsp), coconut oil (1/2 tsp), and flax seed (1/2 tbsp)
1/8 1000 mg capsule of cod liver oil (125 mg)

Evening:
RMB’s (rotating)

I’ve already purchased everything except the green tripe, which I’ve already sent them an email about, and the RMB’s, which I’m still searching for locally.

I’m so excited!

[mah4angel]

Okay, changed some stuff again! Haha. I figured out the glandular supplement, and I decreased the amount of meat because I found an ounce to pound converter and he eats about half what I put down in the first place.

So here’s my recipe (I make eight batches for Louie right now and I will be continuing to do that, and adding a couple things every day so I’ll be able to mix it up and give him some variety)

Morning (recipe makes 8 meals, aside from the parts to be added on a daily basis):

4 patties / ~1.1 lbs / ~2 cups From the Heart whole grind (~0.1375 lbs / ~1/4 cup per serving)
2 cups XKALIBER blend (greentripe.com) (1/4 cup per serving)
1/2 650 mg capsule of Swanson’s glandular supplement (~40 mg per serving)
1 200 IU capsule of vitamin e (25 IU per serving)
1 1000 mg capsule of cod liver oil (125 mg per serving)
Rotating every day (adding to above recipe on a daily basis):
-1/2 tsp salmon oil
-1/2 tsp coconut oil
-1/2 tbsp flax seed
Rotating every day (adding on a daily basis):
-Dr. Harvey’s Multivitamin and Mineral Supplement
-Only Natural Pet Super Daily Greens

Evening:

RMB’s (rotating)

I’ve ordered the green tripe and am going shopping for the RMB’s tomorrow! Everything else is on its way here 🙂

[SandyandMila]

I just picked this up today for Mila from a local health food store. How’s it look? http://www.usanimalofvermont.com/sellsheets/0500540.090.pdf

[Hound Dog Mom]

Is Mila eating a homemade diet or commercial diet? (Sorry I’m drawing a blank here – I know you were trying raw but I can’t remember if you switched her completely to homemade raw or are just supplementing a commercial food with raw). If you’re feeding predominantly a commercially prepared balanced food (be it raw, kibble, etc.) I personally feel Mila would benefit much more from a whole food based supplement as opposed to a supplement such as this which consists of mostly synthetic vitamins and minerals (for more details on the benefits of whole food supplementation you can read the post I just made to sharkie on the large breed puppy thread). If she’s eating homemade food and you were planning on using this as a vitamin/mineral supplement, it’s not going to supply adequate levels of vitamin e or manganese (I don’t think I see managanese?) and I still feel that a whole food based supplement should be given in conjunction with a multivitamin/mineral. Sorry if any of this is repeated information or was already discussed, my brain isn’t all here today and I’m forgetting who I’ve talked to, what was said by who, etc. lol

[Hound Dog Mom]

Mah4Angel – that looks great! 🙂

[mah4angel]

YAY! Thanks HDM ^_^

[mah4angel]

I’m also going to be adding the Only Natural Pet Cranberry Wellness supplement for his urinary tract once I get it 🙂

[SandyandMila]

Bummer I thought I had gotten a good product and started giving it to her today. 🙁 I didn’t find what I was originally looking for (spirulina powder, chlorella powder, wheat grass powder etc.). I feed mostly raw (commercial and homemade) but also kibble (NV or Orijen) and canned (wellness, weruva) when I don’t have raw. I also just got Preference to feed with grinds for the added fruits, veggies, vitamins, and minerals. So I would have to get a whole foods supplement + a multi? I also saw this at the store, it is human-grade but they had it in the pet section as well. Is it a better option? http://www.solgar.com/pub/supplement/1180.pdf. I’ll read your post on the other forum. Guess I’m still confused with all if this. Can I feed the one I got with grinds and my RMB meals and just add a whole food supplement, if I can find one?

[pugmomsandy]

Nature’s Logic has a whole food supplement when you feed homemade raw. The other foods (kibble, canned) are already complete and balanced (except for superfoods). You can find the green superfoods at the supermarket in the health food section and of course Amazon. I buy from Starwest Botanicals too.

[SandyandMila]

Can I just use the one I got periodically, it’s a big bottle that I really don’t want it to go to waste. I can add the green superfood to her diet once I get it and give her less of the multi. If I feed Preference with her homemade raw which has vitamins and minerals including kelp and alfalfa do I still need a green or multi supplement? I know HDM said u can’t overdose on them, just want to make sure I know what I’m doing. She’s already been getting bee pollen and the commercial raw she’s had has coconut oil, salmon oil, and ACV so I’d just be giving those with the homemade raw, right? The dry and wet food is only one or two days a week and will be less once my Hare Today order comes in.

[theBCnut]

Yes, you can add it periodically to use it up.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Sandnmila –

You don’t want to use Preference with a grind. Preference is designed to be used with boneless meat to balance the calcium to phosphorus ratio and if you add it to a grind (which contains bone and already has a balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio) you will throw off the calcium to phosphorus ratio. You also wouldn’t want to give Preference and a multivitamin – Preference essentially is a multivitamin (+ fruits and veggies). If you’re feeding grinds I would recommend cooking and pureeing your own fruits and veggies (cheapest) or buying baby food blends (I do this when I’m lazy, I buy the pouched fruit and veggie only blends such as Peter Rabbit Organics, Sprout, Earth’s Best and Ella’s Kitchen).

How often are you feeding grinds? If the grinds are 50% or less of Mila’s diet and the other portion is a balanced commercial food you’d be fine just giving her the grind plus a whole food supplement (such as the Nature’s Logic All Food Fortifier that Sandy mentioned) and forgoing a multi. I only recommend adding a multi if someone is feeding a predominantly homemade diet and doesn’t know how to or doesn’t want to take the time to properly balance the diet using whole foods.

[SandyandMila]

I’m feeding primal mixes and I got turkey burger blends from Bravo that I haven’t tried yet. I would just be adding the multi/green superfood supplement to those right? I was thinking of adding the Preference to the Bravo burgers since there’s not really much veggies in it but that would throw it off, right? I should just add puréed veggies and the supplements?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Yes, as long as you are feeding grinds that contain meat/organ/bone in the proper proportions (such as the case with Primal and Bravo) and these grinds make up less than half of her diet (i.e. kibble for breakfast and grind for dinner) you would be fine just adding a whole food supplement (or even no supplement, but I believe whole food supplements are very beneficial). Are you able to get the Primal mixes? I used these when I first started feeding raw. I believe they’re 80% meat/organ/bone and 20% fruits, veggies and herbs. To use up the rest of your Preference I say just pick up some ground beef or turkey at the grocery store and use that following the instructions on the package.

[SandyandMila]

Yes the primal chicken mix is the only one I’ve tried so far and just got the Bravo burger blends but haven’t tried it yet. I feed commercial raw in the am and either RMBs or that mix in the pm and the kibble and canned on the weekend for dinner. I haven’t used the Preference yet, maybe return it for baby veggie puree or the whole food supplement? And again the whole food supplement can be given whether commercial and homemade raw? Should I be worried about the brewers yeast in the Nature’s Logic? Mila’s skin and coat has been damaged due to allergies, not sure if the brewers yeast will make it worse? That’s the reason why I’ve switched her to raw and adding krill, sardine, coconut oils and supplements to get food. Thanks for all the help.

[SandyandMila]

The Bravo turkey blend burger also have meat/organ/ bone and veggies but only broccoli, green beans, yams. So I was going to add Preference to that but that would throw it off so maybe just add some fruit/veggie purée would be best?

[Hound Dog Mom]

There should be enough vegetables in it, but if you add more add just vegetables.

[SandyandMila]

Ok, thanks! Should I try a whole food supplement without brewers yeast? I’m not sure the benefit if it or if it would be bad due to her skin?

[SandyandMila]

Will the Nature’s Logic all food fortifier supplement set off anything if added to a grind or mix?

[Hound Dog Mom]

You’d just have to try it to see – none of my dogs have every had issues with Brewer’s Yeast. The whole food fortifier won’t set off anything. Pre-mixes just throw off the balance because they’re designed to be added to boneless meats (no calcium) so they’re fortified with high levels of calcium.

[SandyandMila]

Thanks, I think I will try it. I feel like I’m going in the right direction just needed a little help.

[SandyandMila]

I thought I read somewhere on here someone had mentioned Puritan’s Pride Green Source but not sure where. Would think product be a multi/whole food/ green supplement all in one? I had seen this at a local natural food store and remembered someone mention it in here. When should it be used (homemade raw, commercial raw, kibble/canned). How much, would it be half the adult amount? If I get Natures Logic all-food fortifier, would I use it in conjunction with Green Source or alternate with it. I’m still confused with supplementing and when to give which.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Green Source is a synthetic multivitamin/mineral with some adde whole foods.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 8 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[SandyandMila]

Ok

[SandyandMila]

So I purchased the Nature’s Logic All-Food Fortifier yesterday and fed it to Mila with her Bravo blend burger for dinner yesterday. My cat didn’t like it so much, she could tell right away something was up with her food. lol Anyways, the directions say to add it to dry or wet food. I predominantly feed raw (whether Primal complete formulas, or the Bravo turkey blend bugers, and grinds and RMBs when I have them) but do still feed dry and canned food if I have to about once or twice a week. Should I still add the Nature’s Logic to the dry and canned as well or would a green superfood supplement, as recommended above, be better?

[SandyandMila]

Is the avocado in the Nature’s Logic All-Food Fortifier ok? Is it less toxic in powdered form?

[pugmomsandy]

The avocado meat is ok. I don’t think they use the skin or pit. The kibble and canned are already complete and balanced, although it’s a processed food, so you don’t really need it for them, so I would use the supergreens instead.

[SandyandMila]

That’s what you had mentioned before, just making sure because it says to add to wet or dry food. Thanks!

[Hound Dog Mom]

As Sandy stated the Avocado is safe. It would be fine to add the NL supplement to kibble and canned – it contains a lot of whole foods plus enzymes and probiotics but you could certainly add a green supplement instead, it’s really up to you.

[SandyandMila]

Yeah, I’m sure NL wouldn’t put it in their product if it weren’t safe. I’ve read online people feed avocado to their dog. Btw, is kiwi ok for dogs? I saw it the other day in a baby food veggie/fruit purée and was wondering. Thanks guys!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Kiwi is safe for dogs. I’ve used baby food purees with kiwi and I’ve seen dog treats with kiwi.

[SandyandMila]

Oh yeah, I’ve seen doggy cookies by K9 granola factory that are apricot and kiwi, just never tried them.

[Hound Dog Mom]

BTW Sandy – I love the new pic of Mila!

[SandyandMila]

Thanks! It was taken last weekend, she finally got to go back to the dog park. She had so much fun!! 🙂 I just got my first Hare Today order delivered (turkey necks, turkey hearts, green tripe). How long should I thaw them for so I can portion them out? And also, I noticed you use the ground lamb supreme from MPC when u feed lamb, do you prefer it to Hare Today’s lamb/mutton? Is the lamb supreme in the correct meat/bone/organ meat ratio or does it need anything added to balance it out? I like it that it also has tripe. I’ll probably feed it in about a month or two but would just like your expertise. It’ll probably be my next order. She’s loved her raw so far, didn’t really need a long transition and no digestion issues. She’s going to love the long turkey necks, she’s only had the cut ones from the grocery store. I’m going to start also giving her pork neck bones next week, do i have to add any extra muscle/organ meat or tripe to it to balance it out? Sorry this is in the wrong section of the forum, if you feel more comfortable please leave your reply on the raw food section, when you can of course. 🙂

[Hound Dog Mom]

When I plan on portioning food out to re-freeze, I let it thaw just long enough that I can get a knife through it. The less thawing the better. For my fridge, overnight usually works.

I’ve actually never used Hare Today’s mutton. I’ve just always gone with MPC’s Ground Lamb Supreme because it contains tripe and when there’s an opportunity to fill my kitchen with the lovely stench of tripe I take it! 🙂 I’ve never contacted MPC to verify for sure, but I would assume the Ground Lamb Supreme has a balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio – I’ve always fed it as is with no problems. It’s 50% ground ribs which should contain a high level of bone/calcium + the 15% tripe which has a 1:1 ratio which wouldn’t affect anything + the 25% heart and 10% organ meat which should reduce the ratio (which I’d assume is high from the ribs). At 10% the organ ratio is good.

Pork necks are typically very high in bone, so I’d make sure the meal just prior to the pork neck meal or just after the pork neck meal is heavy on muscle meat. You also may find that she passes some undigested bone when she just starts on pork necks. Pork necks are a lot denser than poultry RMBs and sometimes it takes dogs awhile to adjust to digesting the denser bones.

[SandyandMila]

Thanks for the heads up about the pork neck bones, I’ll make sure to keep an eye on that. I had read somewhere online that they suggested feeding them with beef hearts but wasn’t sure if that was correct due to feeding beef with pork.

[theBCnut]

The other thing to be aware of between HT mutton and MPC Lamb Supreme is that the mutton may have a much higher level of fat. Mine don’t have any issues going from a light fat meal the a heavy fat meal, but some dogs do.

[SandyandMila]

Good to know! Thanks

[scottNY]

Hello – maybe this is elsewhere, but can anyone recommend a good dog multivitamin for a 65 lb, 8 month old pit mix? I currently use the “Vetri-Science Laboratories Chicken Canine Plus Supplement for Pets” which seems good and he only needs 2 per day, but I would appreciate some advice.
Thanks!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Why are you feeding a multivitamin? If the dog is eating a balanced commercial food a multivitamin isn’t necessary and, in fact, I wouldn’t suggest giving one. I would instead opt for a whole food supplement such as Nature’s Logic All Food Fortifier, Wysong’s Wild Things, Dr. Harvey’s Whole Food/Herb Supplements, etc. If you’re using a multivitamin to balance a homemade diet I’d opt for a human multivitamin.

[MaggieM]

Hello,

I have a question about using vitamins and green super food supplements. I just started feeding raw and I think I have the meals balanced between the raw meaty bones and the other half muscle meat, organs and some vegetables, eggs and dairy. I am hoping that this puts the calcium/phosphorus ratio is in a balanced range. I have been adding fish oil for the omega 3s and now I am a bit confused as to what else I should be adding. I know E is needed with the fish oil but I have been debating between just adding the E or just adding a simple multi-vitamin or one of these vitamin/mixes.

Berte’s Daily Blend
EarthOrigins
Dr. Harvey’s Multi-Vitamin
SpiruGreen Superfood

The Berte’s and the EarthOrigins seem to be more of a cross between a vitamin and green blend compared to the others. I have heard so many different opinions I am no longer sure what is really needed. Does any one have any thoughts?

Please help.
Thanks,
M

[theBCnut]

I would add the SpiruGreen Superfood and depending on how well you rotate different veggies in, I might consider using a multi a couple or three times a week. If you give a good variety of veggies, I wouldn’t bother though. In my opinion, you are better off just adding the E, and I’d add D too.

I rotate my super foods and if you are worried that you might be missing something, a whole food supplement is the best way to go about covering nutritional bases.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 7 months ago by theBCnut.

[scottNY]

Hi All,

Sorry for the delayed response. To answer HDM’s question, I have been giving my puppy, who isn’t much of an eater, a daily multivitamin for the same reason I take one; it is extra insurance that, hopefully, I am getting all the nutrients I need.

I use the Vetri-Science Laboratories Chicken Canine Plus Supplement, which he likes chewing, and it has the NASC seal of approval. As I mentioned, he is not much of an eater [8-month old 65 lb pit-mix eats two cups of kibble per day or less] but he looks and acts healthy and certainly isn’t boney, so it just seems to be his way. I use a 5 star kibble from the HDM list and occasionally mix in some wet food, also a 5 star from that invaluable list. Is the multi really unnecessary? If I do want to use one, is the one I am using good? I struggle giving him human supplements because they don’t taste good to him and after awhile, I feel that disguising food for him is a bad habit. I prefer to save that for things that I need him to eat.

Any additional thoughts or ideas?

[theBCnut]

Hi Scott,

If he is eating a balanced food, then you really don’t need the multi. The best way to make sure you are covering your bases is to rotate to a different food after every bag. Two cups of kibble is only a little less than I would expect a dog of that age and size to eat of a high quality food. And as you say he is looking and acting healthy and not looking too skinny, so he knows the right amount of food for himself. That’s good.

[MaggieM]

Thanks Patty for your advice. I have one additional question about adding flax to poultry and hemp to beef. If I rotate daily between poultry and red meat do I still need to add these to the meats? If so do you add seeds or the oils? Daily? I’m curious about anyone’s opinion on adding these.

[theBCnut]

If you are doing poultry one day and red meat the next, you do not have to worry about getting all the special oils. The rule of thumb is 3 days a week. 3 days of poultry, 3 days of red meat, and a fish day. Dogs don’t digest the seeds very well, so I have heard that it is best to get the actual oil. Some nuts and seeds ground up and added to the diet is a good thing but you can’t assume that they get enough oils from a good amount of nuts/seeds.

[Author]

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