[Shasta220]

Honestly, I get so confused these days. Grains are good, grains are horrible, certain grains are good, all are bad, etc etc.

What is the truth about grains in a kibble? Is an average GF food /always/ going to be better than a grain-inclusive food? Sure, I understand that many dogs have grain intolerances, but not every dog does. How are foods full of potatoes and peas really better than those with rice and barley?

I understand that grains are not a part of a dog’s natural diet, and they don’t need the extra carbs… But potatoes ain’t exactly health food either, eh?

Ultimately, I would love to do a raw home made diet for my dogs, but I won’t have the money, resources, or fridge-space for it until I move out. So for now, my dogs will have to stick to the kibble.

[ExplEngineer]

Thank you for your answers. Yes, I agree that both portion, and intake must be controlled in these larger [OK, Giant] breeds of dogs.

I am curious as to why there is an objection to “Hot Dogs” as the supplemental meat? And this is an honest inquiry, not a challenge or in any manner intended as being disrespectful. I am just a bit surprised that an all meat product of turkey, beef and chicken (I avoid the ones that contain pork, as it is my understanding that pork can be a trifle difficult for a dog to digest). When the steer is headed for the freezer, there is always ground beef (minimal fat content) or the type of chunks of beef that I use in chili or stew. When I come up on them in the supermarket I will pick up chicken breasts or thighs to add to their food, and of course the lads love cheese omelets for their weekend breakfast (they were given raw eggs in their prior home and seemed to thrive on them, but I hate to leave any raw egg product down on the floor for more than just a very few minutes while the cooked eggs remain edible for the better part of any hour. I do have to admit to throwing in an occasional strip of bacon as a treat, but it is not in any way included in their dietary schedule or as meeting any portion of their daily requirements for nutrition.

Actually, on occasion, I will even eat one or two of the hot dogs that I feed to them so I don’t see that there should be a qualitative or a food safety issue, but I assume that there must be something about them about which I am neither aware of, or I would not even consider feeding them to the lads. Trust me on that, both of my kids tell me that if for some reason they are involved in an accident, their last and most important wish is to come back reincarnated as my dog (& they are both >30, college educated, and in good career positions so they are neither deprived,nor underprivileged).

I am in my 47th year of owning and raising Mastiffs, but I still feel the need to seek out better ways of doing so. Now being semi-retired, they are with me virtually 24/7/365, and members of the family and the last thing that I would ever want to do is to raise them in a sub-optimal environment.

Tomorrow is annual inoculation day for my older one, and I shall be using a new, but highly recommended Veterinarian, and I will make a point of having this discussion with him as well, but as with physicians and psychologists, all health care professionals are equally skilled in all ancillary facets of animal health and as with human patients, a wise physician will consult with a dietician in constructing an omnibus treatment team, so I looking forward to integrating all available sources of information, and their recommendations, into our daily routine.

TIA to both of you for your input, and for adding resources to my knowledge base.

[RescueDaneMom]

Hi angele normand,

A homemade cooked diet is doable but you’re going to have to be really careful with the calcium/phosphorous. I’ve never cooked for a large breed puppy just adults so I don’t know how to go about making sure the calcium and phosphorous is at the right level. Hopefully Patty or someone else that is knowledgeable will chime in. Here is a website to get you started though: http://dogaware.com/diet/homemade.html This website has a wealth of info. I would go through it thoroughly. Also, the book “Real Food for Dogs and Cats” by Dr. Becker would be worth purchasing in my opinion. It explains everything about what canine diets need and how to make them. There are recipes for raw and cooked meals.

Good luck and good for you for wanting to do the best for your new furbaby!

[Sharon Buchanan]

Jazz ~
Sorry I didn’t get back to you yesterday. It’s been a madhouse around here with my oldest daughter moving out yesterday, me trying to finish some reading on raw diets so I can order some food before tomorrow and trying to find the right adoptable Golden for my husband.

I appreciate that RescueDaneMom jumped in to give you some very good advice. Pattyvaughn is another great resource as are any number of people more qualified than I.

Although some of the papers from the Great Dane study indicate that a 6 month old LBP could effectively absorb calcium, I have to agree with GDM that waiting at least until 10 months to switch to a higher calcium diet is better. I would however, still feed LBP kibble until full grown, up to 2 years old – you’ll know when your pup has reached that point.

I did switch Mystery to Orijen, Large Breed Puppy a month or so ago and if I hadn’t gone raw I’d have fed it until he was at least 16 months old. I wouldn’t have moved to Acana LBP because their MINIMUM calcium is 1.6%, Orijen is 1.2/1.5 min/max. Some of the Acana Regionals recipes have a similar low minimum calcium of 1.2% but they don’t say what their max is. Additionally, the protein content is lower than Orijen LBP. For comparison’s sake – Orijen LBP and both adult formulas contain 14 proteins and then starches follow. Acana Wild Prairie 2 proteins then a starch while their Grasslands is a bit better at 4. 80% of Orijen’s ingredients are protein, Acana is 60%. Of the other foods that RDM listed, I have opinions on all of them, but you can do further comparisons.

IF I were going to continue into adult kibble, I would absolutely have stayed with any variety of adult Orijen and would have felt very good about my decision. All five cats are eating Orijen with the youngest, a five month old Maine Coon stealing a few ounces of Mystery’s raw. I spent a lot of time researching pedigrees and genetics and food so that we could avoid, to every extent possible, a repeat of the $10,000 it cost us to have double-hip surgery on Sunset before she was two and three months of 24/7 in-clinic therapy to teach her how to walk again. I’m by no means an expert, but I can read and the more I do, the better I feel about my food choices, and why I switched to Orijen at 9 months and then raw so soon after at 10 months.

I wholly agree with RDM on turmeric. Mystery is enrolled in the Morris Foundation’s lifetime study on the relationship between cancer and Golden Retrievers and since we just lost Sunset to cancer, I feel a duty to do everything I can keep Mystery from getting cancer. I do purchase some supplements from Swanson and I’ve had Mystery on Springtime’s Longevity but I’m not certain I will continue that. I do agree with your decision to limit supplements since most kibble already contain a variety of supplements – I recently read an article on supplement overkill. If I can dig that article up I’ll let you know.

I also give Mystery raw eggs on occasion. It’s my understanding that the shell of the egg has a perfect balance of calcium to phosphorus. So if you’re still feeding a low calcium kibble and you want to add a bit more without switching to a higher calcium food, break an egg! I usually break it over a bowl, break up the shell a bit with my hands and pour it over his food. He gets the same eggs I eat – Born Free, Vegetarian without the added omegas or any other organic, free-range brown egg when Born Free is unavailable.

One more note – Susan Thixton had her site truthaboutpetfood.com hacked a couple years ago and so opened another site adding a “2” to the end. The problem finally resolved, she’s moved everything back over to truthaboutpetfood.com but is in the process of cleaning things up – hopefully that will be finished soon. Keep checking back, sign up for her newsletter or “Like” her on Facebook. She’s worth following.

Whew! 😉

[Dori]

Hi Coton’s Mom. I had an awful time with tear staining and rusty gunk coming out of all three of my dogs. Had all three to the vet who found nothing wrong with their eyes. The staining, etc. continued. I then took them to an animal opthamologist just to make sure my dogs vet hadn’t missed anything. Her diagnosis with the same. All healthy, no blockage, no bacteria. Both insisted that it had to be something they were ingesting (Food, Water?). My home has a whole house water filtration system. I followed someone’s suggestion (at this point I don’t remember who it was) and bought spring water using a reverse osmosis system. I then followed other suggestions of trying distilled water. I tried that. All to no avail. I was feeding my dogs a grain, rice, soy, corn, white potato, poultry free 5 star kibble. What turned everything around was when I was finally at my wits end and transitioned my dogs to commercial raw food. (Some day I’ll take on the task of following some of HDM’s recipes, too scared to do it wrong for now). That was approx. 3 months ago. All three dogs have stopped with the rusty colored eye debris. Of course there is some staining left (my dogs are all long haired breeds) but not near the eyes. Only on the hair that will need to grow out completely. If you’re a little concerned about a raw diet for your dogs as I was, once you get into it you realize how much healthier they have become and realize that WOW, the staining was the least of the problems on kibble. My 14 year old Maltese, Hannah, was listless, never played any more, just slept most of the time and I just attributed it to her age. Well low and behold, she is now running around, playing with toys, barking at anyone and anything that goes past our windows, playing with the other dogs, her coat is really really shinny and growing quickly (as are the other two dogs) and might I add their teeth are getting whiter and whiter. It’s truly miraculous and especially coming from a 65 year old mom of three precious dogs who was raised with the notion that you only fed kibble and if you found one that sort of worked ok you kept them on it, no and ifs or buts. So you see I’ve done a complete 180 on nutrition and health. I wouldn’t eat MacDonald’s day in day out (as tasty as they may be) everyday or I would be incredibly deficient in most all nutrient. My husband and I eat fairly well. Why I didn’t think that my dogs needed to eat that way is truly beyond me. Hope any of this helps.

[theBCnut]

Hi Lablubber
If you are serious about wanting to make your own dog food, check out the raw food section. Hound Dog Mom had blood hounds and the recipes she created on there are excellent and have the right amount of calcium for large breed puppies. After you look at that, if you decide you want something easier to get started, there are premixes that you just add meat and oil to, that you may want to check out. See Spot Live Longer Dinner Mix is one. The Honest Kitchen Preference is another. And Dr Harvey’s Veg to Bowl is a third. Finally, Dr Karen Becker’s book “Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats” and Steve Brown’s book “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” are great resources as is dogaware dot com.

[Molzy]

Thanks everyone! Tonight went better. I decided to let him eat it in his kennel, hoping he would take his time since he doesn’t have to worry about it being taken away. It worked! He still gulps large portions, but he crunches all the bones first so I think it’s ok. His poops looked fine today (last evening was his first raw) so we are continuing on!

Gonna have to price out some organ meat and additional muscle meat to eventually balance his diet out, but for now he’s still getting breakfast of honest kitchen so I’m not too worried yet.

[Sharon Buchanan]

BernerdAd ~
Just wanted to ditto Patty’s recommendation on pumpkin. It isn’t something I care to eat, but I keep a single can in my pantry just in case. When I have to open it up, another can goes on the grocery list.

Lablubber ~
I can’t remember if I read anywhere the age of your Lab. There’s a number of articles that HDM posted at the very beginning of this topic that address the correct percentage of calcium for large breed puppies. The figures vary somewhat, I chose to take the advice of Dr. Baker and keep Mystery’s calcium nearer to .80 percent. (My Mystery is an English Creme Golden Retriever – healthy adult weight will be about 85 pounds.)

I hadn’t found this forum when I was researching food so I ended up creating my own chart. I looked at calcium percentage as well as ingredients. I wasn’t going to feed junk (by-products, un-named meat meals, synthetic supplements, controversial ingredients – canola oil for one), no matter what the calcium percentage was. But I also wasn’t going to feed what I thought was the best kibble (no preservatives, no grains), if the calcium was higher than I believed it should be. I would have like to have been feeding Mystery Orijen or Acana but their calcium max for LBP is 1.5%. Though they say they try to keep it to the minimum 1%, they’d be okay feeding my dog nearly twice what he should’ve gotten. In the end, I chose Innova LBP kibble.

A simple explanation of the problem with too much calcium is, that a LBP less than six months old does not have the ability to process excess calcium properly. Too much calcium gets deposited on the outside of the bones which then causes bone disease. Again, this is the simple explanation – try reading all the articles HDM posted, some of them are a little more technical, but you’ll learn a lot from them. And don’t expect your vet to be familiar with the LBP study or any of the reports from that study. My vet said he wasn’t sure if he’d read any of them when I first mentioned diet concerns – and tried to make me feel like I couldn’t possibly know what I was talking about.

Back to the age of your Lab. Once a puppy has reached six months of age, he is able to process calcium better but even afterward, calcium still needs to be lower than what a small or medium size puppy can handle. I moved Mystery to Orijen LBP kibble just last month when he was 9 months old. To address your concern regarding transitioning foods, when Mystery’s Innova got down to the last pound, I added a pound of Orjen to it. When that was gone a few days later, it was all Orijen.

As far as expense goes, I considered Innova to be an average priced kibble – compared to Purina, Iams, Science Diet, or any other junk food. Orijen, on the other hand is going to cost more but is worth it – as far as kibble goes. Innova did have a recall last year at the time that I was feeding it to Mystery. I was forced to switch him over to Wellness – the next lowest calcium percentage, but I cringed at every meal because chicken meal is their third ingredient rather than first, and they use Sodium Selenite instead of Selenium Yeast. It looks like Innova has changed their LBP recipe – I don’t know what I’d do now if my only option to feed was kibble to a LBP.

BTW, when Innova had their recall, I had no choice but to switch Mystery to Wellness – without any transition. And my cats have never needed transitioning as I’ve upgraded their food. Obviously, common sense must rule if you see a problem cropping up because of the change.

I have to agree with Patty on Blue. In addition to their minimum calcium percentage being too high, they have three grains in their top five ingredients, they add chicken FLAVOR (why do they need flavoring?), sodium selenite and caramel which is used to make you, the purchaser feel good about the color of their garbage, as if your dog thinks caramel colored food tastes better than beige food. I also don’t like seeing oil of rosemary so high on their ingredient list since we had a Golden that had seizures (if your dog doesn’t have seizures rosemary oil/extract might not be a problem).

In retrospect, I should have started feeding Mystery raw when we first brought him home at 10 weeks instead of waiting until now when he is 10 months old. You will absolutely learn much here at dogfoodadvisor and especially in the forums. I would also suggest, if you have to continue feeding kibble, go to truthaboutpetfood.com and sign up for her free newsletter. She’s also on Facebook if you prefer. I will say though, that I credit Susan Thixton (truthaboutpetfood), with my decision to pursue a raw diet. Of course, it was here at the forums that I received the most encouragement to switch.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 10 months ago by Sharon Buchanan.

[Shasta220]

But this is great you’re doing raw! Like I say, I hope you can get a good routine going for your dogs. If I ever get the resources, money, and space to keep a freezer-ful of raw meat, I’m definitely switching my dogs to raw. I’ve seen incredible results from a properly balanced raw diet… I have even read of a Great Dane (lifespan is usually around 9-12yrs) who was fed raw his whole life, and lived all the way to 16y.o. and healthy to the end!

[Shasta220]

I completely feel you about being scared he might get injured. My dog, Otto, was quite the gulper. When he was only about 3mo old, he got a hold of a raw chicken bone (it was a leg bone, he had found the cat’s dinner…). I saw him take it, I ran over to him and told him to leave it (yup, this was before he knew the command “leave it”), but it was too late, he had broken it into 2 pieces then swallowed them. I thought for sure he wouldn’t make it through the night, but we kept an eye on him and he was completely fine.

The above suggestions to help with gulping are great. My current gulper, Loki, will get any of his raw meat frozen. He still eats it very fast, but at least he breaks it into kibble-sized pieces, as he doesn’t like swallowing large frozen things… Brrrrr!

I’ve never done a real raw diet with my dogs, I’ve only read the books and web pages. I hope you can get a good routine going with your guy, and I’m sure he’ll remember to chew soon 😉

[USA]

Hi Molzy

There will always be a risk in feeding a dog raw meaty bones. No one can guarantee you that a bone will never cause harm to your dog. Raw feeders want to feed their dog a similar diet to what wolves eat in the wild, believing it is the most natural and species appropriate.

One thing that I think is often overlooked is that when wolves consume bones they also consume the fur of the animal they are eating. The bone usually comes out the other end of the wolf wrapped in fur. The fur protects the inside of the wolf from being damaged as the bone makes its way through its digestive system.

For the gulping you could try feeding a large piece of frozen meat. The piece should be bigger than your dog’s head. This makes it almost impossible for your dog to just gulp down. Being frozen also makes it difficult to just swallow and could encourage your dog to chew. As long as you are able to take the piece away from your dog before it becomes small enough to swallow or when your dog has eaten enough, a frozen piece of meat larger than your dog’s head is an option.

Another option is raw boneless meat. This method has no danger of your dog being injured from bones. In this method you would have to add a calcium supplement to replace the calcium in the bones.

Reading a book like See Spot Live Longer (more geared to the beginner) or Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet (a little more advanced) both by Steve Brown will help you in preparing nutritionally balanced home prepared raw or cooked meals for your dogs.

I am not a fan of using a metal vice grips or a metal tube to stop your dog from gulping. I am worried that your dog might injure himself by chomping down on them or by trying to swallow the vice grips.

Good Luck with Quincy and LoJack!!!!

[Molzy]

Well, I gave Quincy his first meal of raw tonight, a chicken leg quarter (on sale for 59 cents a pound this week)! I tried to hold onto it to teach him to CHEW his food, but was only partially successful. I am now freaking out because I just let my baby eat a chicken bone! Trying to ease myself by watching YouTube videos of raw fed dogs, but all the videos appear to be chewing more than he did. Any advice? Is he still a candidate for feeding raw?

At this point I’m planning on keeping him on honest kitchen for breakfast, and raw for dinner while I learn more and become more comfortable with balancing the diet (I know I can’t do chicken quarters forever!). But I need a little reassurance that my beloved dog isn’t going to bleed to death tonight because I let him eat bone!

I’m watching him like a hawk for any signs of discomfort (kind of difficult since he has digestive issues anyways), but so far he’s just running between me and the kitchen looking for more chicken and playing with his toys…

[Lablubber]

Hi KMS

Thank you once again for your reply on the vaccinations and yes i know this is a nutrition forum for large breed dogs and I have most of the tinme been talking about it buit it just came to mind while I was typing so I asked anyway, since all of your longtimers seem so well versed and have educated yourself in the finer points of truly raising your dog right… So thank you for your reply…. It is very much appreciated…

Then Patty, thank you also for your reply…. I know that written word is the poorest form of communication there is and you grossly misunderstood my intentions in my words because if you have read my other posts, I happen to think all of you are very informative and also very wise in your area of expertise. I actually switched off of the dog food my breeder had my pup on because of a post I think Hound Dog Mom made and I don’t know where in the world off of here that I got the idea to use Blue but it has made a world of difference in his coat, his stool conformity and he has yet to have the first issue with the Chicken and Rice Lg. Breed Puppy Food.

As far as the raw diet goes, I have no issue with anyone using it and believe me had I not seen first hand several issues myself with it, then I assure you for my pup, I would doing whatever it takes to have him on it and besides even the people I knew that had the issue may have not used the raw diet in the prop[er way or had the strict regime of ingredients like you guys do.

Believe me if I didn’t agree with anything you sauid or thought that you didn’t know what you were talking about….i sure would not have changed my whole way of thinking and I would still be using milk replacer in my puppy chow and facing hip or elbow issues down the road.

I came here to be educated by people like you and hound dog mom and all of the year of wisdom that is formed and madeup by in this forum. And then boom you hit me with another shot in your last reply and told me Blue had too much calcium as well and I just finished a 20 day transition over to it for my dog.

I swear someone on here told me it was one of the top 25 foods to feed a large breed puppy. So excuse me if I upset you by using the poorest form of communication there is because there was nothing intended wrongly for any of you. Because I am disciple of all of you and intend to remain so if you guys don’t shun me out for poor wording.

So with that said… Can I just plainly, country boy ask you what you would feed a labrador retriever pup that means the world to you if you don’t feel comfortable with going the raw way just yet?

One other thing I would also like to ask about supplimentation is with all of the stomach cancer issue that so many older dogs are facing… Has any of you ever added Tumeric or Curcumin to your dogs diet because I can tell you for a fact and even MD Anderson Hospital finally admitted that they have found that it actually kills cancer cells and then acts as an outright cancer fighting addition to your diet… My boss had Multiple Myeloma (Bone Cancer) and he was in stage 4 when they found it and then through nutritional changes and lots of prayer, he is a documented walking miracle. Needless to say his whole staff now takes tumeric/curcumin everyday… And my pup get a 1/2 capsule everyday as well, until I find out it is bad thing for him which I don’t think I will from what I have read. In fact I am going to write Texas A&M Vet. School to make sure that it will not and if not what dosage I could give him to be a correct amount for his system. I personally think it will make him cancer immune in his old age. I have had skin cancers on my arm dissolve and dissappear after just a few month of taking 3 capsules a day of it every day.

So I am sorry if I ruffled anyone up because I truly did not mean to do so because I respect and enjoy reading every single thing you guys write. I read it every day and every night religiously. I just thought it was kindly strange that everyone was replying to all the posts done after mine and not a thing toward mine at all… You know what assuming does but anything I aksed is asked geniunnely because I don’t know and really want someone more educated and wise to step up and help me out… This puppy means the world to me and so I only want the best for him even if I have to swallow a lot of stuff that I didn’t know I was doing wrong on.

So thanks for your reply and I look forward tolearning much more from all of you on this forum.

The Lablubber

So thank you for all of your help and wisdom and please continue what you are doing for all of us newbies to the real world of pet nutrition.

[Shasta220]

Bones do an amazing job, yes, but I will always brush my dogs’ teeth. Cassy had chews/bones her whole life, but I didn’t brush her teeth enough and she needed one pulled. Then our cat is on the raw diet, so she consumes whole bones daily, and she got an infected tooth at age 5.

Certainly though, if brushing is difficult to do, then bones make a close second for good dental care 🙂

[kms]

PattyVaughn –

Thanks for the feedback! If Augie has consistently good stool for a month, I’m hoping that’s when I can start to get him on a better diet. The vet wanted me to go 10 weeks – she even suggested keeping him on RC for the rest of his life – which left me kinda speechless.

So now I’m trying to figure out what next. Elimination diet or Limited Ingredient food? If elimination diet, what do I add first? How much? and for how long? I’m assuming 1st thing to add should be a protein. Should it be one he never had – or can I start with chicken? (foods he had so far contained chicken, salmon, turkey, rabbit – but we’re not sure if any of those were truly a problem since he also had worms, bacteria and several doses of antibiotics). Would I give it just once (with 1 meal) and wait a few days to see what happens – or give it with every meal for several days and then see? He’s 50 lbs, 8 mo, male, intact, Weim.

Sharon –

Thank you for posting the info about the the shampoo – this is the first time I heard that. I used Allergroom by Virbac for many years on our Lab (who we lost to cancer @ 9 yo) and have been using it on our Weim pup also. So, needless to say, we’re now looking for another shampoo. Maybe Mercola Organic? Pricey, but I trust their products.

Thanks so much to everyone. This site has helped me be a much better mom. Hoping to eventually do a rotation diet and maybe even feed raw down the road. Although, the Internal Medicine specialist who diagnosed Augie with IBD said that she doesn’t think a “rotation diet” is going to be possible. Hope that’s not true.

[Sue’s Zoo]

Sharon,

Dr. Frick had good general information but she doesn’t have a dog and isn’t doing it so not much in the way of practical advice. She did add a few supplements because one of my pups, Loki, has pulmonary stenosis so she gave some things to help his heart. She is looking over the actual meal plans and going to provide recommendations. She thought it all looked very good (I brought in a few of HDM’s meal plans from early in the Feeding Raw topic. She did say that it would be better to customize the herb and fruit supplements based on what each dog needs. And we discussed ways to do that. I’m going to take all the actual ones I use in and go over them with her next week.

I signed up for the Dogs Naturally conference. Thanks so much for providing that info. I’m looking forward to it and wish it was sooner! Not sure where you live. I placed my first order thru MyPetCarnivore.com. They make deliveries to various areas once a month, plus you can get orders delivered UPS but only when desperate as shipping for that type of delivery is expensive. I also found another place called rawpaws.org. They also run deliveries to several areas but I think both of these are primarily midwest US. Another frequently mentioned on this site is hare-today.com I haven’t looked into their shipping fees etc. I know they do ship fedex and UPS but no idea what it costs. I’ve also been able to find chicken backs and gizzards at Whole Foods; gizzards, liver, turkey necks at a local grocery store.

I will go through more of my info from Dr. Frick once I’ve had some time to digest and after we go over some specific diets etc next week.

[Sharon Buchanan]

Sue ~

I wish there was a holistic vet near me but the closest one is in Charlotte – 2 hours away, so I would definitely be interested in what yours says about the raw diet.

I think a lot of my hesitation comes from not knowing exactly where to get fresh raw food. I initially thought that if I went to the grocery store I would be feeding Mystery human grade food. But then you have to find organic, grass fed, etc., etc. Of course, there are no chicken backs in the meat department, though I did find turkey necks. My local store said they could order some tripe but when that came in it was white, processed tripe – no good.

I’m going to try to find a local butcher, but how I’ll ever know if I’m getting quality meats. Oh, genius that I am – I just realized I could get a whole chicken and cut it up myself. Cows, maybe not.

I like your idea of a washable rug and towel for RMB eating but right now I can’t keep Mystery on an 8’x6′ piece of linoleum. I’m going to try some “place” training on his crate tray to see if I can get him to stay in an area that he’s familiar with – except without the bars. I can add a towel to that but like our other Golden did, Mystery thinks a towel is for rolling around on.

I look forward to hearing about your visit with Dr. Frick.

[Sharon Buchanan]

Patty ~

You know, way back when, I remember giving our Sunset the DinOvite but stopped when we moved to Prague. I’d completely forgotten about that.

I did call Primal to talk with them about their food and was thaaaat close to placing an order until I looked at the Primal thread on dogfoodadvisor. What a catastrophe, wading through all that. In the end, I decided not to order any – a setback in my confidence.

I was looking at some the photos folks have posted here of their dogs eating RMB and I think it was HDM that had a pic of one of her dogs eating a whole quail. What? I want that! Minus the feathers of course. I did give Mystery a bone last week when it was warmer outside He went at it for over an hour while I enjoyed some quiet time over the waterfall and pond. Since I let him chomp away at apple tree branches, I wasn’t worried about the dirt too much.

I did try to give him a bone in his crate one day when temps were below freezing but he wouldn’t touch it. I opened the door of the crate and he brought the bone out with him. I tried to get him to stay on the 8’x6′ linoleum scrap but couldn’t keep him there. OCD kicked in, the bone came up and I set about steam mopping the crate, linoleum and wood floor followed by soap and water. I think I’ll try taking the tray out of the crate and start training Mystery to stay on it while eating.

I so appreciate that you shared the list of foods you’re feeding. With that, you’ve given me a better idea of what a diet should look like than anything I’ve come across so far. Thanks! I’d also read somewhere that balance doesn’t have to happen with every meal – it could happen over the course of days. That’s a little freeing. I’ll let you know when we get to our first raw day.

[Molzy]

Hello,

I recently contacted Honest Kitchen customer service to learn more about the Preference. I inquired about feeding bone-in meat with the Preference, and they claimed that Preference (and the two new base mixes they are coming out with this year) are fine to mix with meat and bone mixtures, and that the calcium/phosphorus ratio would be balanced as long as I used their ratio of Preference:Raw Meat.

Now, as a scientist and having some knowledge of mathematics, I am not sure how that can be true. How can it be a balanced diet with ground boneless meat AND balanced with meat/bone grinds?

Any thoughts?

Molly

[Sue’s Zoo]

Thanks Sharon, Patty and all research from HDM! It’s so good to have someone near the same point with feeding raw etc. It’s such a challenge! Can’t wait to check out the raw roundup internet conference. Thanks so much for sharing that. I too have used some frozen raw (Primal…and yes it’s VERY expensive) and will continue that when things are crazy here or I’m on vacation etc. but I really want to do the more natural whole raw most of the time.

I actually made the jump last week. Primarily because I found a specialist vet in our area that is holistic and does nutrition counseling for raw etc and figured I couldn’t do much harm in a week. I have an appointment with her tomorrow so I decided to start with some of HDMs raw diets from the beginning of the thread. (Wow!! A LOT of work!) But I’m convinced this vet can provide support because she helped so much with our GSD several years ago. He was such an awesome GSD but somewhere between 7 and 8 years old he started showing signs of DM (degenerative myelopathy). Our traditional vet gave us 6 months max with him but a friend recommended Dr. Ava Frick so we took Baron to see her. Thanks to Dr. Frick and stim therapy, acupuncture and natural supplements we were blessed to have a full 18 QUALITY months with our boy. So I checked with her and found that she does do nutrition counseling etc.

Both pups are going to see her tomorrow so we can discuss raw diets and the best way for them to get the best nutrition possible. All our dogs, other than Baron, died from some form of cancer affecting the digestive organs. Can’t help but feel that diet was the primary factor. So I’m determined to do anything in my power to provide these pups with quality food and life.

Have to say I’ve been overwhelmed a lot during the last week but I’m glad I started ahead of time. So many more questions to ask from a much more ‘real world’ vantage point! The younger pup is barely over 4 months but does pretty good with chicken backs. I will relax with it much more in the next 3 to 4 weeks as she gain her adult teeth. She just worries me with the way she attacks her food! The older male (all of 7 months) is more mellow in many ways and will lay on his rug with a turkey neck or chicken back and take time to enjoy it. But I have to say it’s a lot like watching my kids eat a meal I’ve prepared. Very fulfilling 🙂

BTW, we have all hardwood floors so I have struggled with feeding spots and found that the one that works best for me (us) is a large machine washable rug per dog covered with a large bath sheet (towel). The rug keeps the towel in place and most of the time I can just wash the towels and re-use. The rug beneath only needs an occasional wash.

I will post what I hear from Dr. Frick after the visit tomorrow. And I will also include some of the challenges I’ve hit over the last week along with any suggestions to help address them.

[theBCnut]

WOW, Sharon!! Way to go! Baby steps are fine and that conference sounds amazing.

When I started feeding raw, I started with what made it easiest for me, which at that time was DinOvite. That gave me time to do research even more and get comfortable with balancing diets. I now use commercial balanced raw(Darwin’s), commercial grinds that I balance(Hare Today and My Pet Carnivore), premixes(Dr Harvey’s Veg to Bowl, See Spot Live Longer Dinner Mix), and homemade balances raw. This way I get convenience the days of the week that I need it, a really great selection of different proteins, RMBs a couple times a week, and all the other features I was looking for in a raw diet.

[Sharon Buchanan]

Sue’s Zoo ~

I am a nanobyte of information away from going raw. I spent two months researching the best kibble to buy for my Golden puppy and now I’ve spent another eight months researching the best way to feed my growing boy and have come to the conclusion that raw is the way to go. Unfortunately, I am also concerned about balancing not only calcium and phosphorus but everything else, protein, veggies, supplements.

Being at a similar point in the raw decision as you (everyone makes it out to be no big deal but it is intimidating nevertheless), the best I can offer is to share a few things I’ve learned along the way and hope it’s helpful.

Having had a Golden that required double-hip surgery before she was two, proper bone growth was a huge concern for me. If you’ve been to the LBP nutrition forum (/forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/#post-33156), you’ve probably already read some of the suggestions that Hound Dog Mom posted at the beginning of the thread. If you haven’t, do – It would’ve saved me a lot of research time if I’d found the forum ten months ago. Although I waded through the technical jargon in many of the articles, I found the article by Baker most useful and objective. Now that Mystery is 10 months old, I’m allowing more calcium in his diet than Baker’s recommended .8%. I’ve changed his kibble to one with a higher calcium content (from Innova to Orijen), and have started giving him an occasional RMB and raw egg (yeah, puppy steps).

I can’t speak to whether a puppy should eat raw bones until their adult teeth are in except to say that when I asked my breeder about food choices, I was told he starts giving his puppies chicken backs at six months.

As far as balanced nutrition goes, I’ve considered “balanced” frozen raw brands but they really are expensive and there’s much debate as to whether they’re safe. I’ve read so much conflicting, contradictory and even argumentative information that I have to take a few days off research just to clear my head. Sometimes I wonder if I’ll ever get my Mystery off kibble.

That said, I did find an Internet conference (what will they think of next), on feeding raw that is hosted by Dogs Naturally Magazine. You can find more information here: http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/raw-roundup/. It isn’t until the end of the month but I’ve already registered and am hopeful to glean that last nanobyte of information so that Mystery will be eating only raw in March.

[Mom2Cavs]

Shasta220….my old vet (who I will never recommend to anyone) used Hills, Royal Canin, and Purina prescription diets in his clinics. When asked once what I was feeding my Cavalier, I responded Wellness…they had never heard of it!!! WHAT!? I should’ve left them right then and there but it took a little longer, to my regret. Anyway, we’re with a holistic vet now and I say, “what took so long?!” (maybe that they’re an hour from my house, but it’s been worth it!). My holistic vet carries in his clinic, and feeds to his dogs, Nature’s Variety kibble/canned/treats/premade raw and Real Food premade raw. He also uses Standard Process religiously and also Vetri-Science. He may have the odd bag of Hills or something but I’ve only seen this once. I’m thinking a patient must’ve insisted on it?! There are actually 2 vets in the practice (man and woman) and I see them both. They recommend titer testing, offer acupuncture and chiropractic services and are versed in Chinese herbal medicines. I’m never made to feel like I don’t know anything (which happened with my old vet…he had no bedside manner whatsoever!). Sometimes they even ask for my opinion on a food! I highly respect them and they are both just awesome!

• This reply was modified 11 years, 10 months ago by Mom2Cavs.
• This reply was modified 11 years, 10 months ago by Mom2Cavs.

[Shasta220]

Okay, I will have to be honest – I have only one time fed my dog what the vet suggested. I am NEVER doing it again! Cassy is a sensitive gal, and was doing fairly well on Dog Lovers Gold. I asked the vet if he recommended it, he shook his head and said “only food I recommend will be Hills.”

I don’t understand why vets mislead SO many people, who already are overwhelmed by nutrition but want the best, into getting this pure garbage! It’s quite frustrating, because I’d like to have a personal opinion on a good food, based on my dog’s qualities, but still all the vet will suggest is Hills…

Are there actually vets out there who agree that Hills is junk, or will I always be stuck researching out my own kibble? It doesn’t seem to be /just/ my vet either, everyone in this area rec Hills.

At least they were a little more helpful on my cat’s raw diet. I think all they said is to give her organ meat – try to feed her a whole small bird whenever possible.

[Lablubber]

Hi it’s me again..

I have almost completely finished transitioning over from the food my breeder had my pup on to Blue Chicken and Rice Large Breed Puppy Food with nothing but good results. I have taken a little over a month and 4 days to accomplish that in and his stool are solid and no stomach issues…. Right now I am at 80 % transition 80% BLue/20% Purina Puppy Chow Lg. Breed Food. Right now I am also adding a teaspoon of coconut oil, a teaspoon of ground flaxseed and some fish oil, about 1000mg.

I am not using any toppers except at night for his supper meal and that is canned Blue Puupy Food about a 1/5th to 1/4th of a can. And his coat is shiny and he seems to be doing very well on it…

But for me where my problem arises is from me reading and listening to all of you guys….I almost feel like if I am not alternating out a bunch of different foods and using different kinds of toppers and adding numerous supplements to his food, then it makes me feel like I am shortchanging my dog???

And please believe me….. I have not spared any expense on my part that I know of concerning him and I really do not want to do the raw diet because I have had too many people I know who have had their dogs, get serious bacterial infections from it and some have even died from sluffing off their intestinal lining and dying of anemia before they could be saved by IV feeding and a harsh round of antibiotics.

So for me….This particular dog is just way too valuable for me to ever chance that and believe me I am not here to make any enemies by saying that but I just want you know my logic behind what I am doing with him so far. But then I also have to say this as well and something that I have found out in life myself and some wise words of wisdom and that is this…. Just because someone does something different or feels differently about another idea or approach to your particular way of doing things….Doesn’t neccessarily make them wrong….It just makes them different…! There i said it…My sermon for the day….

So anyway I took painstakingly long with my Labrador Retriever pup after listening to all of you guys and even forsaking what my vet said and changed over to a food that I read about and researched over for many hours and also a food that I had access to, to buy very readily, that I didn’t have to worry about ever running out of even where some of the online food stood the chance of having weather related delays in shipping, that it would not be running. And so I chose a food that I have seen proven to do well with my friend’s large breed dogs. And then I made a just a very few additions to the food, just to make me feel better.

I did as all of you said ion here and I cut out the milk replacer that I had always feed my pups for the first six months of their lives and longer is I saw the need to do so and I did thatimmediately. So anyway…He appears to be doing extremely well. Although he had to have several surgeries yesterday because he had a slight hernia that had to be repaired from a overzealous Lab mother licking him over and over all the time and never letting his navel ever truly heal up right. The he also had a dewclaw removed that either regrew or was missed by the breeder’s vet originally and he also had a place on his leg that had been cut while he was young at the breeder’s kennel that did not grow back right and so my vet did a little cosmetic repair there as well while he was out at no charge and she also micro-chipped him as well while he was out due to the fact that she hates to stick such a big needles in pups at that age if she can help it and so she prefers to have them out at the time of insertion and so she did that procedure as well..

So needless to say, my little fellow was exceptionally glad to see me when he I cam to pick him up….. He came home though like the walking wounded with a front leg dewclaw removed, a back leg, scar tissue repair, a hernia repair and a microchip inserted just at his shoulders along with an antibotic shot just above it, wearing an Elizabethen (sp.) collar to boot, so he was not a very happy puppy last night…. And today he is wired to a tee at work with me here today, needless to say.

So now for the advice part part….. Is the extra stuff I add to his food….The tsp. of coconut oil, the fish oil (which will be changed over to Krill oil when it gets here) and a teaspoon of ground flaxseed meal added to his food twice a day… Does all of that sound good to the ones in the know on here to be adding to his food or is that an over-kill???

Then on the medical part or at least the vaccination part of his regime…. He has had 3 series of shots so far… And I plan on having one more done just to be on the safe side, although my vet. says the 3 completes his regime. Plus he still has his Rabies shot coming up as well…. So does that suffice for his puppy shots being complete or is there anything more I need to be checking into???

I have read quite a few vets who did not reccomend them getting coronavirus or leptospirosis shots anymore(As well as my own vet feels the same way). But for me…Jess will be competing in AKC and UKC Hunter Retriever Trials and therefore he will be around a whole lot of other dogs in close proximity, so I just want to make sure that I have all of my bases covered with him as far as shots, intranasal and any other immunizations that he might need.

I am going to look into get his Lyme and Botedella vaccinations as well, but what is you guys thoughts on a working retriever and his vaccination requirements???

So that is about it today and I know i write very long but I figure if I don’t know, I never will without asking… So thank you for your patience…

Lablubber

[kcarter137]

I have a 1 1/2 year old 13 lbs chihuahua mix. She has a long story and I need help so here it is. She has been plagued with various ailments since we acquired her. After a couple months of raw feet and hairless patches on her body I took her to see an allergist/dermatologist. We did a food elimination diet and determined she was severely allergic to chicken, rice, and wheat; somewhat allergic to eggs, dairy, and fish in higher quantities. She has been eating cooked pork, 5-10% cooked liver, 15-20% pureed sweet potatoes with skin on, 15-20% raw beef, and every other day she gets half a sardine or canned salmon. She eats no bone but I supplement with calcium. She takes a glucosamine/chondroitin/msn supplement because she has bad knees. We recently started her on a wild salmon oil because my vet said she needed it also. He also told me that she’s not eating a balanced diet so she also needs a multivitamin. So I ordered one from b-naturals. I don’t know what else I can do for balance her diet out. My other half says we cannot feed her raw or bones. Help, please and thanks in advance!!

[Shasta220]

Maddy was originally on Cat Chow, so yeah- hair balls galore there!

She’s seeming to do much better on the new food. I haven’t seen a hairball in a while (well, I don’t really see them. My bare toes feel them in the middle of the night!)

It sounds like fiber and “lubricants” are fairly easy to add into a diet without getting a special extra-spendy-but-full-o’-fillers food.

I’m a little concerned about her weight right now. She’s been checked out totally healthy, and acts completely normal, but she feels pretty scrawny. I was hoping adding the canned was going to help (she hasn’t really ever had anything but dry), but she will eat no more than 1tbsp daily, even though I try to offer it to her twice a day. The worst? I honestly haven’t seen her eat the dry in a while – she only eats the canned now. I’m still keeping my fingers crossed that she eats dry when I’m not looking, since they have free choice dry.

I tried mixing dry with canned, but she refused. Picky picky girl! Are there any quality cat foods that have an extra calorie boost maybe? She doesn’t like raw meat at all, otherwise I’d try her on that.

[jenmac]

Hi, my 9 year old neutered male Maltese Bosco recently lost his vision. He was diagnosed with Sudden Acquired Retinal Degenerative Syndrome a couple of days ago. In September he went from 9 lbs to 12 lbs and since that time he has gone to 14 lbs. His blood work, done in October was all normal, including a thyroid panel. Before the weight gain he was on Acana and then I switched him to Acana Light in October but this made little difference. My vet switched him to Science Diet Metabolic food for the last 5 weeks or so and he has gained about 0.5 lbs. One symptom of SARDS is Cushing’s disease and this is what is probably going on with him. Some of his Cushing’s symptoms such as the excessive thirst and urination have abated so I am hopeful that the Cushing’s aspect of his disease is passing (which can happen with SARDS). Does anyone have any advice to offer for dogs with this disease? What food should little Bosco be eating? I’ve read articles that suggest some vision can be regained by switching to a raw diet. My vet has little experience with this disease. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!Hi, my 9 year old neutered male Maltese Bosco recently lost his vision. He was diagnosed with Sudden Acquired Retinal Degenerative Syndrome a couple of days ago. In September he went from 9 lbs to 12 lbs and since that time he has gone to 14 lbs and has stayed there despite being on Science Diet Metabolic food for the last 5 weeks or so. His blood work, done in October was all normal, including a thyroid panel. Before the weight gain he was on Acana and then I switched him to Acana Light in October but this made little difference. One symptom of SARDS is Cushing’s.

[DogFoodie]

Hi Ferrari4204,

I’m not too far from you in NW Indiana. I feed a variety of foods including commercial raw and I also came across a local product that I’ve found very interesting and gaining some popularity locally. I haven’t tried it myself yet and need to do a little bit more research into the product. Problem is, they don’t have a website and basically do all of their business locally, through word of mouth. When I was wanting more information about their products, I called the business and left a voice mail. The owner promptly returned my call, but unfortunately I missed his and haven’t made an effort to connect with him since. I was impressed how quickly he called me back and his responsiveness to my call.

My local product is called J.J. Fuds. I remember when I was a kid and JJ Fuds was a local butcher shop with a master sausage maker at the helm. Who knew there was such a thing as a master sausage maker, but there is. From what I understand, the family has over 100 years of sausage makers and their fine German craftsmanship has been passed down for generations. Kinda cool ~ artisan products are special.

My local operation is still owned by the same family. They prepare their raw dog foods in a USDA inspected facility and all of their raw meat and bones are USDA inspected product as well.

So, small local business, no advertising and no shipping. I have found a couple of websites that’ll ship the product, but am guessing they must also be local and their prices are higher plus the added shipping cost makes it pretty expensive. The company seems to be fine with their local niche market.

It’s very affordable and half the price of other commercial raw diets. The manufacturer delivers the product himself to some local pet food stores and groomers straight from their processing facility.

So, I haven’t tried my local product yet; but, now that you reminded me, I’m putting it back on my to-do list. : )

Here’s a sample ingredient list from JJ Fuds Tender Beef Chunks Dinner:

Ingredients:
Beef, Beef organ meat (Heart, Liver, Kidney, Tripe), Fresh Whole Eggs, carrots, Celery, Sweet potato, Flax Seed, Cranberries, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Suppliment, Vitamin B-12 Suppliment, Niacin, Iron Sulfate, Vitamin A, Acetate, Copper Sulfate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Monoitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Biotin, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Sodium Selenite

[Ferrari4204]

I have been raw feeding my dog for two years, Natures Instinct patties and I was recently told about a store here in Chicago named Honden and Katten where they make their own raw diet formulas in the back of their pet store which is set up like a butcher shop. I decided to try their food out because it was less than half the price of what I was previously paying. My dog, pit bull mix, enjoys the food and seems to be doing well with it. My question is if anyone has run into a small shop like this making raw food. They did go through the process of following Aafco guidelines and it’s nice to see where the food is made and the ingredients I’m just wondering if their food is as good as the instinct I was feeding before. Like most here I will do anything for my dogs and firmly believe in raw feeding, switching food is a big deal for me and although I have never posted here I enjoy the form and was hoping to get some feedback.

[Susan]

Does anyone know any cooked low carb recipes for dogs with Small Intestine Bacterial Overgrowth….Im too scared to try raw just yet….

[Shasta220]

@Suzie, I’m sure there’s some food out there…possibly a lamb formula? It would probably be very expensive and difficult to find. I’d suggest starting your dog on a raw diet: http://www.dogaware.com/diet/homemade.html

Even a raw diet will probably be very tricky to omit those proteins, so maybe talk to your vet about any suggestions?

[Melissaandcrew]

I am not sure what you have access to in Australia, but yes, Tylan-tylosin tartrate used for farm animals. My vet first prescribed it for the dogs and then I just ordered a larger size bottle from a supply company. In farm animals, its OTC. I use the powder.

We did the metronidazole route with our two dogs first, and it worked, but metron should not be a long term medication-Tylan powder CAN be used longer term. We used it with every meal for 30 days, then I weaned them off of it. It worked liked a charm, but did take a lot of trial and error in getting the correct diets. First, I can tell you that YES YES YES YES to the lower fiber.

Secondly, they do NOT do well with diet changes. We feed the two with issues Victor Ultra pro, Abady granular, and raw. While we on occasion have a flare up, its been quite a while for any major issues. When one does flare up, its typically because they got something they should not have-either bunny poo or a treat, or kibble that the others eat. When this happens, we will use the tylan for a 3-4 day period and then all is well. For the record, one has not needed Tylan in several years, and the other(Maya) has a flare up perhaps two-three times a year now versus every few months.

I also found that white rice(as in doing aa boiled rice/chicken diet) to stop the runs is a big NO NO.

[kaylee1989]

Hi, I am now trying to stay away from bones that are commericalized for dogs from pet stores, since they seem to be worse for dogs. I am really interested in feeding raw bones. I gave my 1 year old dachshund (14 lbs) his first raw bone yesterday and he loved it. It was a femur bone (that is all the store had that I went to) I want to give bones just as a nice treat and something to keep him occupied. I am not planning on switching to a raw food diet. I currently give him Taste of The Wild dog kibble (1/4 cup) 2 times a day, I also give a couple treats or piece of meat and carrots daily. I was wondering if someone could tell me what bones are good just for fun treats and also how many times a week I should be giving them. Also, do I need to lessen up on the amount of food I give him the day I give him a bone or maybe just no treats that day? Honestly, he could probably stand to lose a couple pounds, so I definitely don’t want to add any more weight. (He seems to be obsessed with food and tries in every which way to get as much as he can with or without my permission) (and yes I have seen a vet about it, they said he is a fine weight but just shouldn’t gain any more) Anyways, any help would be great. I tried finding my own answers, but couldn’t seem to pinpoint exactly what to do. Thanks. 🙂

[theBCnut]

First of all, did you read the first few pages of this thread? Did you check out the links? The idea that protein causes problems was bad science and ignorance, so don’t worry about that.
Here is Hound Dog Mom’s latest list of foods that have the appropriate amount of calcium for large breed dogs.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?srcid=0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk&pid=explorer&efh=false&a=v
You have to sign up to view it, but it’s very worthwhile. Take the list with you to the pet boutiques around where you live and see what is available. DO NOT marry any one food, rotate foods. Do a search on the review side on diet rotation to learn more.

Keep your puppy thin, not just not fat, but thin. Less weight is less stress on joints.

Find a joint supplement with hyaluronic acid in it. That’s what the body needs to make repairs to joints. And consider feeding him a raw turkey neck once or twice a week, they naturally have good stuff for joints in them, since them have a lot of cartilage in them.

If you have bare floors, consider using throw or area rugs at least until he is grown. They think slip and falls can be a big factor in joint damage for puppies. And finally, no stairs for as long as possible. When he has to do stairs, make sure he does them at a walk.

[Bracha]

Hello,
I am new to this site (it was recommended by our pet shop owner). We live in Australia and thus spend a bit of time outdoors; bush and beach – lucky us. I have a very healthy German Shepard (as endorsed by my vet and every man that sees her walking the street – she has a large fan club, small town). She is de-sexed, large frame, straight back, 41Kg, 4 year 6 mnth. She has been with me since a puppy, 9 weeks. I initially fed her two different brands, but from about 2 months old she has been fed Dry Holistic Large Breed puppy than transitioned over to Holistic adult large breed. She thrives on it. Currently we are trying the Holistic Grain free large breed food and so far (2 weeks) all is well; her stools are a great shape, smell good and regular. Personally this is the only way to tell if your dog is responding to their feed in a positive way, check the pool daily!
I appreciate everyone has a budget, but am in total agreement with other members 4+ stars is the way to go.
I am currently researching the Raw diet option and will consider this diet. But the dry food is convenient. It is supplemented with 100 grams, human grade beef mince. I would be interested to hear members view on this combination of beef with dry turkey based feed; do they think it is self defeating? Enjoy reading the comments from like minded dedicated dog owners. Thanks

[Shasta220]

It more than likely is related to food, possibly environment. TotW is okay food, but I usually have found better quality food at the same price, if not, cheaper. Not always is grain-free food /the/ best, dogs often have intolerances to potatoes, other fruits/veggies, chicken, and occasionally even fish. I’d try some of the above suggestions for food, and maybe try adding plenty of fish oil to his diet (assuming he has no problems w fish…There are many vegetarian oils that work almost as well. Coconut and flax are two of my favorites for the dogs, they also get raw eggs regularly).

I wouldn’t recommend using the borax/peroxide, that might make him even worse, as Borax often causes “burning” to sensitive skin. If his problem is mange, and I doubt it is, the vet would sponge him down all over w medicine.

If there’s any possibility, I’d try doing the BARF diet (bones and raw food) for a while, that way you would know /exactly/ what’s going into his system, and you could customize it to give him optimal results! It’s a bit tricky and overwhelming to start the BARF diet, but the raw diet forums on here would probably get you to a great head start.
The raw diet might not nessicarily work though – I know a sensitive pooch who would get all red and inflamed whenever he was on raw.

I’m really sorry you have to deal with these problems, I’ve gone through skin issues a few times (it was with my lab, Otitis is the name.), it is definitely one of my LEAST favorite health issues to deal with – hands down!

Hopefully you’ll figure out the problem and get him back in good shape soon!

[staxgrl]

Hey gang! I’ve been a reader for several months, but I’m just now ready to start making up my boys’ diets from scratch. I have 2 st. bernard/pyrenees mixes who are about 95 lbs each and a mutt who is about 45lbs. Big boys are 16 months-ish, little guy is around 9 months. Right now the big ones eat about 1600 calories a day and the little one eats around 750. I am happy with everyone’s weight, everybody has a nice tummy tuck and I can feel ribs under my fingers 🙂
Here are my planned menus, I am going to try and rotate in pork hearts and pork necks as well since those are readily available in bulk from my butcher. For now, I am out of room in my garage freezer 🙂 That said, I so appreciate/value your feedback on this. I know how much time and energy it takes to read through all the opinions/information on homemade raw diets, and your expertise is honestly priceless. I am so grateful for this forum. Here goes:

Hagrid/Ludo (95lb dogs)
1 large chicken quarter, bone-in (~1lb)
½ lb (8oz) gizzards
½ lb (8oz) heart
1oz liver
1oz kidney
2 eggs
¼ cup greek yogurt
2 cubes veggie blend
2 crushed multivitamins (one a day)
2 fish oil capsules (1200mg each)
200IU vitamin E (or 400IU every other day)

Debian (45lb dog)
1 small chicken quarter/drumstick (~1/2 lb)
¼ lb gizzards (4oz)
¼ lb heart (4oz)
½ oz liver
½ oz kidney
1 egg
1/8 cup greek yogurt
1 cube veggie blend
1 crushed multivitamin (one a day)
1 fish oil capsule (1200mg)
100IU vitamin E (or 200IU every other day)

veggie blend (steamed/blended and divided into ice cube trays):
2 bunches kale
1/2 lb carrots
1 apple
1 banana
1 sweet potato
4oz alfalfa sprouts

The menu is for a total day, it would be split up into 2 meals. I know that’s a kind of high percentage of heart, so I wanted to know if there were any opinions on that? And what about the veggie blend? This is a really simple recipe so I’m adding multivitamins to hopefully take care of any deficiencies. Thanks!

[Shasta220]

Hm. That’ll be rather tricky to figure out, for sure! I’ll be sure to do my homework now, I guess… LOL! Sighs, if only I had the money/resources/freezer space to do a raw diet for the pooches. At least he’s not a horse allergic to grain…(and I do know of one!)

[Shasta220]

I totally feel you. Our lab gets almost the same problem. Her condition is called Otitis (basically inflammation/infections caused by environment and/or food). It was always manageable…we had to wash her ears weekly, and just deal with her horrible odor. I always figured it was due to her cheap-quality food (poor girl, she had Dog Chow, Pedigree, and even store-brand foods!)… So I finally saved up and bought a bag of NutriSource senior, hoping it’d help. What did it do? It made EVERYTHING worse! She would gnaw at herself so much…about 50% of her skin would be raw bald spots that she chewed at. I tried hot-spot spray, but obviously it didn’t work at all.

I don’t remember what exactly the vet ended up giving us… A couple different pills, some ear treatment, and then a shampoo. Now Cassy is a brand new dog, and she’s off of NutriSource for GOOD (I was so disappointed to have such a high-rated food react so poorly with her. I honestly have no idea what the ingredients in it were that made her irritated…especially considering she did /better/ on the cheap stuff!).

Anyway…that’s my story of a similar pooch… I’d definitely agree w the others to talk to your vet about a blood test to see if it’s an internal problem. Try to list ingredients of all her foods…maybe conduct an experiment: try to get her off /all/ grains and chicken, then if she improves, try to bring either chicken or some grains back into her diet. It might help you see if she reacts to specific ingredients.

Once you’ve found the problem and gotten proper treatment for it, I’d advise some skin-and-coat supplements (if you’re on a budget, you can buy bags of flax and grind it. Excellent source of Omegas) to help out her fur when it tries coming back in.

I’m really sorry your poor pooch has to go through this. It’s really no fun for ANYONE :/

[Lablubber]

Hi KMS

Every vet I have been to with all my dogs recommends Royal Canin Feed for dogs. And I have to be straight up honest with you too…..

This whole dog food issue is driving me absolutely nuts but I study it like a beast and I read and read and read and this is what I have concluded in all that I have read, been advised to do, and from what I have seen first hand in all of….

The Raw diet, although I know that it can be really great and it does seem like the most natural thing to do for your dog. But this is also from my studies of it, know to be a fact……

First the whole reason you are reading this anyway because you like myself, want only the best for your dog and so you want to be absolutely sure your dog or pup is getting everything it needs and requires in it’s diet… And so yes….If you use absolute extreme caution in prep and storage and you get all of your ingredients from a for sure, organic farm and ranch. And if you want to be absolutely sure that your supplementation is correct that you are going to use. the only for sure way that you can do that is by having bloodwork ran on your dog and having a nutritional spectro analysis ran to know the correct amounts of each vitamin and nutrient is being met in his diet and then no one can argue that the Raw diet is a great way to go.

But… the big But word….. The downside to the Raw diet has been, that due to prep work and non organic ingredients being used and this has happen to people who are OCD about it…But it has led to some very serious bacteia infections in people’s dogs and has even caused death in dogs due to the bacteria present in raw food. This bacteria has caused dog’s intestines to actually sluff off the inner lining and pass blood so bad that if they made it through the IV treatment and antibiotics regime then they were fine or otherwise dwindled down and they died.

So the downfall to raw is obviously, the chance you take in that happing, the expense of the spectro analysis, not to mention food cost involved…

Then the super high tech foods that everyone reccomends… The stuff like Blue, Innova, Dr. whatever and all that list on here… They all have high cost, but at least because they were processed in a high temp. situation…The biggest majority of all bacteria has been removed from it. So that is not a worry…. But then you read and know people who have fed that feed and some dogs have bleeding problems associated with it because of the high protien involved in it… Or whatever causes it….. It is not a rarity either….

Then a big push by folks for this food is they say that is like the food that animals in the wild eat and so let me say this as a country boy to as well as being an avid predator hunter, I have never in my life, seen wolves nor coyotes…..Ever eating carrots, blueberries, potatoes, kelp, etc. So in reality then….What is a person to think???? Not like a wild animals diet at all….

Then you come to the more old tried and true….The per say….Puppy Chows and High Pros and the Iams and Eukanubas etc. and yet more and more people are having their precious dogs come down with all different kinds of cancers and tumors. And for me being an avid reader of medical stuff in humans and from all I have read about Monsanto and the genetically mutated corn and the serious ill effects and cancer causing issues they have had in humans because of it….Then it also makes me extremely leery of any pet product containing any corn or corn by product….But yet, even myself I had to learn from folks on here of the ill effects of non-regulated calcium uptake in puppies, especially large breeds and yet I have never raised a lab pup that I didn’t put milk replacer or powdered milk in their food when I feed them…

So needless to say…..It is a very scary world out there for all of us as pet owners…. But one thing I have learned about some vets is…. They like doctors will treat a dog, until you say this is enough and I have been there some times before myself. So one thing I have learned and also saved many a dog with even those who had been left to die of parvo is if you are truly serious about your dog as much as most of us are on here. I will share my country boy diet that has saved quite a few dogs, exhibiting the very same symptoms your dogs is showing…

Go to a local rancher/farmer who raises ducks or chickens near you and and one who lets them fend for them selves for feed and buy them. Then butcher the ducks and boil them down to pieces and I mean everything….the livers and gizzrds and hearts and then add cooked organic brown rice or even quinoa and feed your dog exclusively on that for at least several weeks or even a month after all signs of bleeding ceases to exist in his stool…. As well as, only allow him or her to drink only alkaline water. If you have to buy it….I know Fiji water is akaline but it is also fairly expensive.

Then I would also add 3 capsules of tumeric or curcumin which is the same thing, to his food daily everday and continue that from there on cutting back to one to two capsules a day after he is healed. You can get this at any health food store or pharmacy…

If your dog were showing any signs of weight loss or delapidation in any ways whatsoever…. As I did in the ones that had parvo, I would also recommend adding acidophilus to his food as well as Goat colostrum and I can tell you, your dog’s bleeding should stop within a 4 to 5 days and he will be well on his way to recovery although I would recommend keeping him on the chicken and brown rice regime for at least a month and then begin to transition over to what ever food you want him to be on from then on, always watching closely for any recurrance of bllod in the stool.

Myself I would use the Goat Colostrum and Acidophilus anyway if money permitted regardless of weight loss or not…. But anyway if you couldand if you really wanted to recharge his system as well…. I would keep him on the acidophilus, tumeric and Goat colostrum for at least several months afterwards and then I would also start adding high flora yogurt to his feed when the bleeding stops…

I am not an expert by any means, but I am just a country boy who loves animals and refuses to watch any animal die if I can stop it. I will be honest…. I have lost faith in the medical field when it comes to humans and am quickly losing for the veterinarian field as well due to drug manufacturers and feed manufacturers getting in some of their pockets….

Yiour are well blessed if you have a vet who is in it for all of the right reasons… Very few and very far between… The love of money is the root of all evil and yes it has creeped down into the Vet world as well.

[kms]

Hi all! Just wanted to post an update on Augie and really need advice again. My vet has done all he can do to get rid of the Campylobactor bacteria. First, he put Augie on Marbofloxcin – which I opposed after reading about adverse effects on large breed puppies. After 4 days with no change in stool, we switched to Clavamox. Did 1 round. The stool is the same (1st part is formed, 2nd part runny). So vet sent us to an Internal Medicine specialist. Specialist did exam and sent bloodwork to Texas A&M for a CBC panel, profile and GI Panel. All bloodwork normal – TLI and Folate were fine and no pancreatic inflammation. Specialist thinks this is likely Inflammatory Bowel Disease. She suggested doing a biopsy of the large and small intestine (either a Biopsy via surgery or Biopsy via Endoscope). I asked if we could try elimination or hypoallergenic diet to see if the IBD is due to diet and she said “since he’s not losing weight, I’d be ok with that – but wouldn’t know anything for couple months”. If we go that route, she recommends Royal Canin HP (hydrolyzed protein; hypoallergenic, soy based protein). I asked about treating IBD with RAW or at least with a more premium limited ingredient food and she had no experience/opinion there.

I worry about him being only 7 mo old and having to go through all this. Can pups really have true IBD this young? My gut is telling me to change the diet, but I could end up spending 2-3 more months on something that doesn’t pan out for him. What do you think? Has anyone ever fed Royal Canin HP for GI issues? It’s only 19% protein (soy) and rice is the first ingredient. I thought grains were bad for dogs with IBD, colitus, etc. It does, however, have ok calcium levels (2.5 mg/1,000 kcal) and it’s approved for all life stages.

Thanks for any advice or insight….

[GizmoMom]

rhonda, look into PMR (Prey Model Raw)
http://preymodelraw.com/

Or home cooked meal.
http://www.dogaware.com/diet/homemade.html

[JASTECH]

Jesse82, the food change is your best choice. When a dog is healthy inside the skin & coat follows which mites don’t like. Sense your dog is of a mixed breed called Bully Breed (not American Pit Bull Terrier) they have skin, joint, tumor and other issues more then pure bred APBT.
So start with the food, try feeding a BARF diet staying away from the grains and post your results as what raw meats and how much you feed your dog. The specs on your dog will help determine how much to feed, energy level etc.

[Jackie B]

Dr. Mike plans to come out with a Cat Food Advisor someday. Cats are easier than dogs though. They are obligate carnivores. The more meat in the diet, the better for them. And if they will eat wet food, that is preferable to dry (especially raw wet food but cooked should be OK. People say raw preserves more nutrients and I’m sure it does but cats are picky.). You should at least supplement dry cat food with the wet food several times a week to help prevent kidney issues and other problems down the line.

My friend who is a cat expert feeds Authority wet food from PetSmart. She fosters cats so she has to pick a budget friendly but still good food. If I had a cat I would likely feed a frozen raw product.

[Sue’s Zoo]

First, thank you so much HDM for taking time to respond and Patty for helping out. I guess I did realize the c:p ratio was still important but was hoping it might be somewhat automatic when feeding raw. And from your response it seems like that is the case IF I get the balance correct between organ, muscle/tissue, and bone. And there are several ways to accomplish that–grinds, RMBs, Tripe mixes, etc. I guess at this point I just want the simplest way to get started, which ideally would be someone saying: feed this, then this, etc. 🙂 while I read and re-read all your info and additional recommended resources to educate myself and become more confident in creating my own meals. I did see some of your info under raw feeding giving your dogs various diets over a period of time. I’m going to look at those more closely because I think it’s what I need to kickstart the program. I just wasn’t sure if those contained all the necessary nutrition for large breed PUPPIES (as well as adult dogs). So thanks again for your response.

I think I may start with MPC as I look for less expensive routes for the future. Considering what I pay for just doing half Primal (chicken, beef, rabbit and venison) plus top end kibble/canned (rotating Wellness CORE Puppy/Earthborn Coastal Catch/Halo Surf n Turf, plus a daily can of FROMM Gold rotating proteins), with these pups, I can’t imagine it’s going to be much more…I hope. And I’m going to get a freezer (checking CL today)

And lastly, for now, you mentioned books. I have the Ancestral Diet book. I’ve noticed Dr. Becker’s is recommended in several places so I plan to get it. Are you familiar with Raw Dog Food by Carina Beth MacDonald? Any others you could recommend to help me jump in quickly?

So happy to have found this site. I’m sure I’ll have many more questions over the next few months. Learning so much from you and some others. And I’m a skeptic so I don’t trust everything I read on the internet. But just by reading your posts it’s obvious you’ve done the research and know what you’re talking about.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Sue’s Zoo –

Yes, the calcium to phosphorus ratio is still important when feeding a homemade raw diet. When feeding a “grind” such as those sold by My Pet Carnivore there’s really no way of knowing the “exact” C:P ratio although it is assumed that it’s balanced. However, as we know, the concern with large breed puppies is not only that the C:P ratio is balanced but also that it remains relatively low. My suggestion (and what I did with my pups) would be to mix in about 25% green tripe with any grind that you feed (MPC does have a great grind called “Ground Beef Tripe Supermix” which is 50% green tripe/40% muscle meat, bone, organ/10% trachea and gullet which would be a good choice). Green tripe has a balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio of 1:1 but the levels of each mineral are relatively low (only about 0.3%) this way you can “lower” the overall ratio without the risk of throwing it off balance.

It’s also perfectly fine to start young pups on RMBs (it’s easiest to start small – chicken necks, etc.) but I would recommend feeding some muscle meat at each RMB meal. RMBs do have a balanced C:P ratio but it is very high (usually close to that upper 2:1 limit) so I would say feed about half as much muscle meat as you do RMB. So, for example, if you feed 8 oz. of chicken necks also feed 4 oz. of muscle meat.

As far as ordering – you’re going to be going through A LOT of meat with two large dogs. I currently have two female bloodhounds and we go through about 150 lbs. of meat per month. When I had my large male (who unfortunately passed last summer) we were going through closer to 250 lbs. per month. My suggestion – especially if you’re on a budget – would be to try and locate a wholesaler. I get my meat delivered right to my house by a wholesaler that sells to grocery stores and restaurants. They butcher all their own meat so they do have items like chicken backs, gizzard, hearts, organ meat, etc. and will deliver to kennels that order at least 300 lbs. at a time. You will likely have to place a large order if you go this route but if you invest in some freezers it’s worth it in the long run – I pay <$1 per pound for everything I get. The only meat I order outside of my wholesaler is green tripe and I get this from Hare Today – with the shipping it’s the most expensive thing my dogs get. You can often find good deals on used freezers on craig’s list or in the free trader.

Do you know how to create a balanced diet from scratch? There are some great books out there and also some pre-mixes if you’re not sure about what you’re doing.

[Sue’s Zoo]

Thanks Patty. I noticed they were offering special pricing of all 4 books for $25C so I just decided to do it. All the information on this site (DFA) is amazing but for me it’s difficult to digest because it’s in so many bits and pieces. I need it consolidated in one place, at least to get started. I’m sure I’ll be back here when I have specific questions.

So far the first several pages have been interesting and useful as they’re explaining why a raw diet is so beneficial. Very detailed info regarding digestion, anatomy, benefits of raw but written so a lay-person can understand.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 11 months ago by Sue's Zoo.

[theBCnut]

You have to balance a raw diet. And giant breed dogs have special calcium requirements so their diet needs to be balanced extra carefully. But yes, they can get total nutrition from a good raw diet.

[Rabbinator]

I’ve read a lot about raw diets, kibble diets, wet diets, rotation diets, homemade and store-bought foods. I work in the pet industry and while nobody has actually asked me yet (raw is not really big in this area apparently), I have yet to find a definitive answer to my question.

Many things that I have read said not to, under any circumstances, rotate raw and kibble. Others say that it’s actually great to rotate raw and kibble, but not to feed both simultaneously (which makes sense re: digestion). I have found a lot of opinions, but no science to back any of it up (other than the simultaneous feeding). I understand protein rotation as well as wet/dry combination/rotation, but I’m at a loss for kibble/raw.

Does anyone have any evidence for/against a kibble/raw rotation?

And another fun question: If feeding raw and kibble simultaneously is unhealthy, why do I carry Nature’s Variety Instinct that is normal kibble with freeze-dried raw coating? Does the fact that it’s freeze-dried raw factor in at all, or is it a gimmick? (NV website about Raw Boost: http://www.naturesvariety.com/Instinct/RawBoost/dog/lamb )