[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Good Morning Dori,
Yes, ideally having both girls on the commercial raw & dehydrated (i think) would be a good mix & as you say balance out in the end.
Both are quite expensive
I don’t think I am imagining this,but since pepper is no longer eating any kibble,at times she seems to have more energy, more vitality then when she was on the Amicus.
I don’t know, I know it won’t stop the clock for her, so I am just thankful for any tiny improvements she gains from changing her diet.
You have a great day.

[Dori]

Hi Cheryl. So glad to hear Millie and Pepper are doing well. If you can get them both transitioned to raw and raw and dehydrated that there is no need for worries or for feeding kibble if you can afford financially raw and dehydrated. One of the things that I think I have forgotten to say to you is that a complete and balanced meal does not have to be achieved with every single meal. Complete and balanced needs to be achieved over time. Not every single meal every single day. If you feed one meal dehydrated and one meal commercial complete and balanced raw, then you are golden. Kibble companies would have you believe that each and every single meal, no matter how many meals you feed per day, must be complete and balanced. That’s nonsense and not true. It’s the reason that a lot of people, myself included, feed a rotational diet. What nutrients they may be lacking in one meal or with one company with their different proteins (remember…most companies will change the protein, but typically the other ingredients pretty much stay in the same realm) the will get from a different food, different company. If they are getting to high nutrients or ingredients from another company, it will all balance out with a rotational feeding protein. Two companies can have the same exact ingredients in their ingredient list on their web site or their packaging but the % of ingredients are all minimums so they will all differ. That’s why a lot of us believe that “complete and balanced” diets need to be met, and will be met, over time. Not meal to meal.

[Sherri G]

Hi there –

I have a four year old English Bulldog (Oliver) who is…”special”. Ha! He has a very sensitive stomach along with some random other issues. Oliver had to stop eating kibble at age 2 because while he doesn’t have Mega Esophagus, he was having kibble get trapped in his cardiac sphincter, causing him to randomly and sporadically regurgitate. Soft, pate-style food and a Vegan Digestive containing Slippery Elm, Marshmallow and Licorice finally stopped that issue. Going to canned food, Oliver gained weight. He began a prescription diet food (canned) exactly one year ago and has lost 12 pounds.

A week and a half ago, Oliver began having awful gas (something of note: he does not receive any “people” food) which led to extremely horrible diarrhea. And when I say “diarrhea” I mean a gushing geyser. (sorry!) Naturally, we went to our beloved, trusted vet. After two trips and some tests (blood and stool) nothing out of the ordinary was detected. She felt he could have simply built up an intolerance to his food. She suggested switching to I/D (canned) to help with diarrhea and a course of Metronidazole.

After 3 days on I/D and Metronidazole, his diarrhea became worse. We switched to a chicken and rice diet and 7 days of Tylan. He is mid-way through the Tylan and our vet would like us to call when he finishes and then decide on food options.

After researching and making myself crazy (is there anything worse than not being able to make our “fur kids” feel better?), I started reading about raw food. I knew nothing about it until yesterday, when I spent hours upon hours of reading. I am not a meat eater myself and would definitely use a commercial brand – but we have yet another issue: Oliver cannot digest carrots.

After HOURS of research, I have found only 3 flavors of 3 different brands that do not contain carrots. Of those 3 brands, Primal Formula (Turkey/Sardine) seemed to be the “best rated” food. I have ordered a small bag to try.

So.. my questions are:
-Since Oliver is on a chicken & rice diet, would/should we fast him before trying the raw food? I’ve read different opinions on it but most dealt with switching from kibble.

-Do any of you have experience with your dog having chronic diarrhea or sporadic periods of diarrhea and you feel raw food has made a big change?

I apologize for the extremely long post. Our Oliver is complicated and we give him the best care we can, following our vet’s advice. I haven’t spoken to her about going raw yet but she leans more towards homeopathic and naturalistic approaches to everything so I suspect she will be in favor of it. I guess I’d like some advice/input/thoughts if anyone would care to share.

Edit: Since switching to Tylan Powder with chicken & rice, no diarrhea – just very soft stool.

Thanks so much,
Sherri (& Oliver)

• This topic was modified 11 years, 2 months ago by Sherri G.

[Ivchister]

Cheryl,

Q: What do you mean gastro sensitive?
A: She vommits immediately when she eats something she can’t digest, for eg. raw meat, any kind of fruit or when my mother gave her some inappropriate food. She ate grain free food with salmon but was stressed out when we were moving and had very bad gastritis that culminated by blood in vommit. We gave her Hills i/d after which she had a bad case of skin allergy so we tried with z/d and it worked for a while..
Q: Does she eat a grain free diet?
A: Not now..
Q: Is she sensitive to certain proteins& or grains that you are aware of?
A: I’m not sure because she first reacted badly while eating grain free food (with fish).
Q: Did your vet culture the ear discharge to see what it was exactly(yeast, fungal, some other infection)?
A: The vet said that there is no inflammation or otitis just a lot of dark brown ear discharge. But A LOT, like there is mud in her ears. I clean it with Otifree fluid.
Q: Do you think the ear discharge is diet related?
A: Yes, it might be related..
Q: Have you changed foods recently and this happened?
A: It is happening for a while now.. It started before the horrible gastritis period and I can’t connect it with anything else but food. We moved, the aparment is clean and new.
Q: Have you been feeding the same food(s)? I know lots of questions
A: No, because of the gastritis episode and the allergie reaction..
Q: Does the food have to be dry? If so, have you ever tried soaking the kibble in warm water before feeding? softer foods might be easier on the stomach.
A: Yes I have and there is no difference because she just doesn’ drink water if I soak it. She normally chews the dry food and drinks some water, she’s not only swallowing..

• This reply was modified 11 years, 2 months ago by Ivchister.

[Cheryl F]

Hi everyone. I’m new to this forum, but not new to the BARF diet. Back in 2004 I was feeding all my dogs/pups this diet quite succesfully, then I became unemployed for a period of 9 months late in 2008, and had to switch back to horrific kibble. I had 4 Saint Bernards, 1 Bassett Hound and a 60lb mix breed. Needless to say, the BARF diet food bill was quite extensive back then, and i had to re prioritize in order to pay the mortgage. I have only 2 dogs left now and the BARF diet is calling me back for all of it’s wonderful benefits. There weren’t as many suppliers then as there are now, and I’m reading the posts on the pros/cons of each supplier as well as performing my own research. I live in NJ and am looking for several suppliers who are reliable, have a good quality product, don’t gouge you on price and have a good selection of RMB, meat and organs. Please tell me your experiences with the various providers so I can make an informed decision before I place my order. Thank you all so very much.

[Dori]

Hi Cheryl. I have fed OC Raw from time to time. Yes, it’s difficult to find. One of my not too local stores will order it for me but it’s just a pain so I don’t feed it to frequently. Girls like it and they do well on it.

Commercial raws don’t have to contain fruits and veggies to be complete foods. Some raw feeders don’t even believe that dogs need fruits or veggies. I prefer my girls have them in their diet but as I give them all fruits, and veggies as treats and I feed a rotation diet, I’m not a stickler about whether they are included in the meal or not. Eventually with a rotation diet it all works out.

By the way, how are Millie and Pepper doing with raw??

• This reply was modified 11 years, 2 months ago by Dori.

[Akari_32]

Yeah well next time she needs ear drops or a nail trim, I’m calling you! She won’t look like such an angel then…. Lol

Blood test is going to be $130-something and dental a little more. Extractions are extra, though I wasn’t told how much. If a blood test was only $40 here, I’d have one done just for the giggles. Lord knows there’s more wrong with her than just meets the eye, and I’m sure theres something nasty going on with all the tumors on her body. But very few people want a dog this old with her list of problems, both mradical and behavioral, as long as hers, so I just deal with them as they come.

Cats can’t even hardly digest carbs, so what good would that even do? Raw diets are actually shown to reverse a lot of diseases in cats and dogs. Canned with low carbs (less than 5%) would be the next best thing. Vets all think high protein is too hard on the kidneys when in reality it’s usually high protein with not enough water that is so hard on them. Protein takes a lot of water to be properly broken down and processed. So do carbs, so why add carbs and take that water away from digesting what the body really needs (protein)?

[aimee]

Yes, Balance it is for a cooked diet. You could call and find out if it could be used with raw, but I kinda doubt they would approve of it…because of the raw aspect. I think Dr. Bartges at Tenn is a vet nut who will balance raw diets.

[Akari_32]

Interesting. Thank you. I’m not sure if that website is also the company that makes the product, but I can’t really find anything else about them. There is one other site that sells it cheaper.

I’ve not looked into Balance it yet because the site doesn’t like my phone very much. However, it is true that it’s for a cooked diet only? Or can it be used with raw? I don’t have time to be doing any cooking (i barely even cook for myself!) lol

[Dori]

Akari. I’m so glad Bentley is doing better with his skin issues. He’ll continue to get better. If his paws are still itchy I would suggest what BC has stated in other posts and that is that you keep some sort of container….rubbermaid rectangular type or any brand for that matter, right outside the door you taken him in and out of and rinse his paws in the water just before bringing him back in the house. Keep a towel inside the door to dry his feet. That should help if it’s due to environmental issues.

Just another thought. Don’t forget to remove carbs from his treats. We so often forget that most store bought treats are full of carbs and other inflammatory ingredients. Which is another thought….try to remove all inflammatory ingredients from anything he eats. Some are white potatoes, tomatoes (all night shade plants). Rice is another pro inflammatory ingredient. Every little bit that you can remove from his diet is going to help. Some commercial raw foods contain white potatoes which is an ingredient that, if your dog isn’t allergic to, you don’t think to remove. Just google inflammatory foods, fruits and veggies. I’ve had to do that because of Hannah’s arthritis so Katie benefited from the removal of inflammatory ingredients which wreak havoc on the allergy prone animal and human.

[Dori]

Cheryl, thanks for your kind words. I’m hardly an expert on raw feeding or animal nutrition I can only relate my experiences with my dogs.

I don’t feed kibble and I don’t feed canned. The only canned I was somewhat ok with is Weruva but it contains caraggeean (can never spell that word) and it’s also made in Thailand. A very good trusted by most company that makes raw and dehydrated is Vital Essentials. Vital Essentials sells (as treats I believe or at least that’s how I’ve fed them) a bag of tripe. That’s a way you could go if you wanted to introduce some tripe into their diet. I don’t use commercial treats (too many carbs and ingredients that allergy girl, Katie, can’t have and I also just don’t trust them with all the recalls out there) so I’m always on the look out for something I can give them as a dry quick treat for training purposes. The dogs love them and they have not caused any gastro upset either.

A sardine every day is imo way too much! Only two or three times a week is more than sufficient. That’s probably why Pepper was no longer doing well with the sardines. You can go back to feeding her sardines if you want to but maybe a couple of times a week, not every day.

If Millie is already eating a freeze dried food and doing well with it then she should have no problem with raw at all. Freeze dried is raw. I would certainly switch her as soon as possible to the raw and get her off kibble. You can then feed both dogs the same foods.

Cheryl, you are not asking too many questions and you are certainly no bother. We all started where you’re at now. It takes a while to get the hang of it. Anyway, we are all still asking questions as we should be otherwise how else would we continue to learn.

I’m a Virgo. Perfectionist would be a kind description of me and, I too, suffer from migraines. I’ve had them since I was 10 years old. Hereditary I believe because my mother always had them. Anyway, ask all the questions you’d like. If I can’t answer any, I’m sure others will. Eventually you’ll be the one answering posters questions. That’s how it works around here. Learn and pay it forward.

[Akari_32]

Dori, since starting on raw, Bentley has gone from chewing the fur off his body from his ribs back to just chewing his feet, but not to the point where they’re bald, just red and stained fur. Taking as much carbs as possible out of his diet has helped so much! I still think a grass/pollen allergy is part of the feet-chewing problem, but his skin is no longer red all over his body, and his fur is growing much more fully. He’s actually less hyper on a raw diet, though he is a young terrier, so he’s always got energy when he thinks he needs it (which is almost always LOL). But he doesn’t have pointless, wired-up-for-no-reason energy.

[Dori]

Cheryl. No do not put them in the microwave. I usually scoop them out of the bag from the freezer into their bowls. I leave them on the counter until they’ve softened up a bit which doesn’t really take more than 15 minutes or so then I feed it to them. If you want to defrost a little faster you can put the frozen nuggets in a zip lock bag and put the bag in a warm (not hot) bowl or tupperware, whatever, in the sink or counter until they soften up. You do not want to have raw cook in anyway (reason for no microwave or hot water) because you will lose some of the nutritients in the raw food, negating the purpose of feeding raw.

As to the Pro Dent Plaque Off, Hannah has been on it for at least a couple of years or so, as have Lola and Katie too. Hannah has had hypothyroid for at least half her life. Her thyroid levels are checked every quarter because she has been and still is on Soloxine so the testing is necessary. Also at 15 years old (last September 9th) I would be taking her for blood worth every six months anyway. Her thyroid levels (on her Soloxine….dose has never had to be adjusted) are always spot on perfect. So maybe iodine affects some thyroid patients and not others. Fish has always been in her diet and that has also never affected her thyroid levels. As I mentioned, I had checked with her vet before purchasing the Plaque Off and she told me that it would only affect her if she was hyperthyroid which she isn’t. Good Luck.

[Sam D]

We have a puppy where we want to give him a varied diet. High quality puppy kibble one some days and raw food (like honest kitchen, Aunt Jeni’s and Instincts frozen raw) on other days. So far he’s only had Taste of the Wild grain-free puppy.

If raw and kibble digest in the gut differently….then how can you really mix the two types of foods for a proper transition? We were just going to start him on Instinct Raw frozen chunks in his Honest Kitchen base mix but we’re worried he will not handle it well and then we won’t know if its the sudden change OR the food itself that’s bothering him.

Advice? Tips? THANKS!

[theBCnut]

Ivana R
Your dogs problems are likely related. One of the common symptoms of food intolerance is ear and/or eye discharge. Try Nature’s Variety Instinct Limited Ingredient Diet Rabbit and see if it clears up. If you don’t have that where you are, look for limited ingredient diets and see what is available to you. You want one that has ingredients that she has not had before.

Weezerweeks
After a bath, you can put 2 drops of rubbing alcohol in each ear. Massage the base of the ear before your pup shakes his head to mix the alcohol with the water. The rubbing alcohol decreases the surface tension of the water and that makes it shake out easier and it also makes it evaporate faster. Don’t use this if there is any raw tissue in the ear, it will sting. And don’t use it if your dog won’t let you put things in his ear, because you don’t want to wrestle with him and get it in his eye.

[Dori]

Hi Kelly. My suggestion would be do go completely grain free. Avoid poultry and all the night shade plants some of which are white potatoes, tomatoes. Just google night shade plants. They are all inflammatory and you want to avoid them. You also want to avoid soy. Also, as Cheryl stated, rice is also inflammatory. You need to remove as many inflammatory ingredients from your dogs diet. My 15 year old 7 lb. Maltese, Hannah, tended to have high liver levels and is also on Denamarin daily. Her regular vet had prescribed 1/2 tablet a day but the specialist I took her to (at the recommendation of her regular vet) so that we could rule out any issues going on told me to give her a whole tablet once a day for the rest of her life. I’m sure you are aware that it must be given 1 to 1/2 hours before meals. Not with the meal. I also give her 200 mg. of vitamin E (soy free) once a day (also prescribed by both the specialist and Hannah’s vet). Mercola.com is the only company that has a vitamin E without soy that I have been able to find. When I originally went grain free Brothers Complete was what I was feeding but had to stop feeding their foods because all their foods include turkey or chicken in them and one of my dogs (I have three toy dogs) is intolerant of all poultry (all fowl). For the most part back around 3 years ago I switched to THK Zeal (only one of their formulas I could find that didn’t contain any poultry). I then added commercial raw diets to their diets. I feed rotational within brands and also different brands. The Honest Kitchen Zeal is still in rotation. I also feed some Freeze Dried foods. Hannah’s liver levels have come down considerably and just a shade above normal. They were crazy high awhile back.

[Akari_32]

He’s on a completely raw diet now and has been for a good while now. I guess about 4 months. Seems longer… Lol

How much of that stuff do you put over your dogs food? They’re about the same size as Bentley, so it should give me a pretty good idea of what to expect. I think the website said something like 4 weeks, but if you don’t see an improvement in 8 weeks to use a little more each feeding.

[Dori]

Ok Akari. I know what you mean about their not drinking much water on raw. I hadn’t realized Bentley was an almost all raw diet. Now it makes sense.

There are two sizes of the Pro Dent Plaque Off. I bought the larger size because it was more of a savings and I use it every day on all three dogs. It does take a number of weeks (I forget how many…it says it on the side of the container) before you see improvement. It does a pretty decent job. I brush all three dogs teeth but I find that the Plaque Off does help. I hope it works for all your dogs. Have a great weekend.

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Commercial Raw Feeders,
I could use some help.
Just got some primal Raw for my puppy Millie.
I took a big girl breadth , my questions how do i go about introducing this into Millie’s diet?
Give a tiny amt. alone? I still feed her 3x a day-her noon meal is an orijen freeze dried patty-do u think I should switch w the primal?
Can she eat the primal in her regular bowl or should I get her another stainless bowl?
I am sorry if I sound a bit “out there” have never ever done this-just worried about Millie
Thanks all in advance.

[Naturella]

Anita, even though your vet said to do that, the kibble size will do nothing to help clean your dog’s teeth. It is like cleaning our molars with large cookies.

What you can do is try to get your dog used to brushing. You can start with putting some coconut oil or dog toothpaste on your finger and let your dog lick it, then slowly get it used to you rubbing it on his/her teeth with your finger, and little by little move to a rubber brush that you put on your finger, or a real dog toothbrush. Since you have to get in the back of the mouth, it won’t be easy, but it’s really the best way to keep their teeth clean, and you need to do it daily, or at least a few times a week.

Another alternative is feeding raw meaty bones, like chicken necks, feet, wings, legs, etc., or pork/beef riblets and neck bone pieces. Always supervise while your dog is eating those and make sure she/he crushes them up well and is not gulping them. You can feed those a couple times a week, but make sure the amount is no more than 20-25% of your dog’s balanced diet. And no cooked bones.

Hope this helps! 🙂

[theBCnut]

In raw diets, they may be getting a meal from the same type of meat source multiple times a week and at a higher concentration of meat, since kibbles are typically at the very least 1/3 carbs. And yes, heat destroys thyroid hormone.

I honestly don’t know if in fowl the glands are not present, in a different location, or removed during processing, but I have also read that it is not an issue.

[heather t]

I have been trying to research this issue because I have 2 questions that I can’t find the answers to. 1. Why are they discussing this only in reference to raw diets. I am sure the same parts of the animals are being ground up in meat and bone meal for kibble. Does the extra processing/cooking eliminate the problem? and 2. I saw in one place that chicken, duck and turkey necks are not an issue. I can’t seem to find this confirmed or explained anywhere. I am so glad people are on top of this stuff now!

[aimee]

Kristin,

I believe dogs are quite flexible and do well on a variety of nutritional approaches so I agree there isn’t one right way. What is most important to me is the the dog’s needs are met.

So when I read of cases like the Sheltie pup who was raised on pre mix and raw and suffered severe nutritional disease it concerns me. Do companies know what they are doing? I don’t know that they do….

My second dog has Mast Cell disease . I hope your dog does well.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19366336 Diffuse osteopenia and myelopathy in a puppy fed a diet composed of an organic premix and raw ground beef

[aimee]

Dori,

I ‘ll be happy to discuss THK or anything I post about. I agree with you that their customer service is very responsive but CS hands are tied by the overall lack of nutritional knowledge of the company as a whole.

I think I covered the “kickback” thing. Marking up a product isn’t a kickback. Income stream from selling foods in a vet hospital EH… minor at best… It isn’t worth a vet’s time to sell pet food, his/her time is better spent in the surgery room! Considering the small volume of food sold and taking into account overhead and theft it is likely a bit of a wash. Someplace on Dr. Wynn’s vet blog she addressed this topic as her accountant said stop selling therapeutic diets, it is too much of an income drain!!

Sure vets get volume discounts on food as does anyplace buying the diets but again that isn’t a “kickback” and the volume they deal with in general is so small compared to a large retailer. If vet offices sell food I don’t see it as primarily income related I see it as providing a product they have had success with and trying to increase client contact. If they break even woo hoo!

Ok.. Why I wouldn’t currently recommend THK. On its most basic level I expect a diet when fed as directed to meet my dog’s nutritional needs. I first looked at THK when a poster posted about all the “sticks” in the product. I looked at the profile for the product she was posting about, Preference, and using the information they posted and their feeding directions I ran calculations. When fed to my dog Preference didn’t meet NRC rec or AAFCO min recommended amounts. This alarmed me!

In fact I immediately contacted THK, especially as Preference was being marketed on their website as being appropriate for feeding puppies!. To their credit after I contacted them they removed the information and feeding recommendations for puppies from their website within days. BUT why did it take someone with minimal nutritional training ( that would be me) to point out to them that their food is deficient? They acknowledged I was right by removing the puppy feeding recommendations but why still market it to adults? What about the adults eating the diet? Don’t they care about them as well?

I’ll run through a calculation with you. I’m going to feed my dog Brooke who weighs 68 lbs Preference. I’m to feed her 3/4 cup mix and 1 1/2 cups meat using their active dog recommendations.

The Vit E content of Preference is 70 IU/kg as received, Calories/kg 3510 and Cal/cup 333. From the caloric information 1 cup has .095 kgs of food and 3/4 cup is .071 kg Preference.

.071 kg of food X 70 IU/kg = 5 IU of Vit E in 3/4 cup Preference. NRC rec amt for Vit E is 1 mg/kg body weight to the 3/4 power. Brooke is 68 lbs = ~31kg. To calculate bw to the 3/4 power multiple bw three times and square root twice. 31X 31X 31= 29,791, take the square root twice = 13. Brooke’s body weight in kg to the 3/4 power is 13 and NRC rec Vit E is 13 mg Vit E of the alpha tocopherol form.

Now we have to convert IU vit E to mg vit E (alpha tocopherol) which is what NRC uses. The accepted conversion factor I found is 1 IU vit E = .45 mg alpha tocopherol So 5 IU Vit E x .45 mg/IU = 2.25 mg alpha tocopherol supplied by Preference. The Vit E content of the added 1 and 1/2 cup 85% lean ground beef is .58 mg Vit E from the USDA nutrient database, I’m estimating 1.5 cups as 12 oz. 0.58 mg from meat plus 2.25 mg from the mix = total Vit E fed 2.84 mg. Preference provided about 20% the NRC recommended daily amount of Vit E. This is why I don’t recommend Preference, it doesn’t meet needs.

I’ll compare Preference to AAFCO on an energy basis. AAFCO rec Vit E is 50 IU/kg and a kg of food is defined as 3,500 kcals 50 IU/3,500kcals x 1000 = 14.2 IU/1000 kcals.

I was recommended to feed 3/4 cup Preference which gave me 5 IU Vit E and 250 kcals and 1 1/2 cup meat. 1.5 cups 85% ground beef from USDA database approx 731 kcals and .58 mg alpha tocopherol. I convert mgs Vit E from the beef to IU and I get~ 1.3 IU Total Vit E fed 6.3 IU and total calories 981 kcals 6.3IU/981 kcals x 1000 = 6 .4 IU/1000 kcals. AAFCO Min is 14.2 IU/1000kcals so Preference provides less than half the min AAFCO Vit E requirement according to their posted nutritional information.

Dori, I hope you can now see that using the information provided by THK and adding meat to the pre mix it does not meet either AAFCO or the NRC recommended min levels for Vit E.

Now let’s look at their complete diets, are they complete and balanced? Go to their site and pull up the nutritional information for Keen. The posted content of Vit E is 23.45 mg/kg DM and their posted arginine content is 0.06% DM. Compare that to AAFCO. AAFCO min Vit E content for maint is 50 IU/kg DM and arginine AAFCO min is .51% DM. It really is as simple as that…. 23.45 IU/kg is less than AAFCO requirement of 50 IU/kg and 0.06 % is far far less than .51%. But consider that KEEN caloric content is reported as 4524/kg and AAFCO requires any diet over 4000 kcals/kg to be corrected. The correction is simple 4524/3500 x 50 = 64.6 IU/kg. A diet with KEEN’s caloric density requires 64.6 IU Vit E/kg and THK says there is 23.45 IU/kg. The company reports that their diet has only 36% the amount that AAFCO requires. THK is saying that their diet is not “complete and balanced” b AACo nutrient profile.

Diet after diet, nutrient after nutrient the information that THK posts doesn’t meet AAFCO

Have I reported them? The company on one hand says it is complete and balanced and on the other says it is not. For a feed control official to take action I think a nutrient analysis would need to be done to settle the question and a full analysis can cost thousands. I don’t have that kind of money to donate to the cause. I asked THK if their nutritional analysis are accurate and they said they are. I asked how they can say their diet are complete and balanced. They say they are. Both statements can not be true. Either the nutritional information is wrong or some diets are not complete and balanced. I don’t know which is true. The company said it didn’t have time to investigate it, but would get back to me. It has been over 6 months…Is that good customer service?? I’ve been waiting over 6 months for the company to answer as to how it can say their diets are complete and balanced when the information they post does not meet AAFCO.

I found a similar situation with Grandma Lucy’s, they say the diet is complete and balanced but they report that the Phos max is .45% which is below AAFCO min. I did report Grandma Lucy’s to the feed control official. Grandma Lucy’s printed their nutritional information on the package in their guaranteed analysis so the feed control official didn’t need to run an analysis. The food is misbranded: the label can’t say that it meets AAFCO while guaranteeing that the food is below AAFCO. So the official in my state placed a stop sale order on Grandma Lucy’s. Does that mean it isn’t being sold? Of course not!! The feed control official can’t be there 24 /7 in every little boutique that chooses to violate the law. Does the company care? They gave me the same line as THK; Our diets are complete and balanced. I’ve been waiting over 9 months for them to tell me actual Phos level in their foods.They said they should have the information sometime in 2015

People tend to buy food on an emotional basis. THK is very good at appealing to emotions: “human grade”, “whole food”, “non GMO” etc. They excel in it… I’m analytical.. I like numbers and data. I like things to be consistent and this company is full of inconsistencies. They say the food is “never cooked”…. but they “heat” to high temps. How is that not cooked? I asked THK but they wouldn’t answer. It isn’t raw… yet their phone number is “4 dry raw” and Lucy Postins says right on the video that it is raw. If you use their as received nutrient data the DM protein content is 21.85% for Keen but if you use their as served data it is 40% protein DM basis. They say the diet is highly digestible but expect your dog to poop three to five times a day. That’s normal… Really?? Normal for your dog to poop 3-5 times a day with undigested whole hunks of celery and sweet potato and alfalfa in it? They haven’t ever done any type of digestibility trials, how do they know it is highly digestible… they told me they know it is because raw foods are highly digestible… but wait… they told me their food isn’t raw. Do they have a nutritionist Nope… have they ever had a nutritionist review their diets? Nope. Since the company doesn’t use any nutritionists does it surprise me that their diets wouldn’t be balanced and they can’t do simple nutritional calculations… Nope

I see this company as a marketing company. They appeal to people who evaluate foods on an emotional basis only which is pretty much everybody! They say it is not cooked to appeal to raw feeders and they say it is heat processed to appeal to those that don’t like raw. How can it be both?? According to the nutritional information the company posts and depending on the diet their diets may not meet the most basic thing that a food should, which is meet the nutritional needs of the pet. As long as you don’t feed it consistently it should be fine. But why pay a premium price a food that comes out as it goes in? And why support a company that promotes feeding unbalanced diets to pets ?

Dori I hope this explains to you why I can’t currently recommend this company.

[Kim S]

Shawna thank you so much for replying! I have a dog that I rescued in July and she is about 1-1 1/2, has chronic ehrlichiosis, demodex and is in chronic renal failure due to renal dysphasia. She has survived longer than expected and seems to have a strong will to live. I have been researching quite a bit and have started acupuncture. I am working on trying to get her on a better diet but the vets are not crazy about the raw diet because she has such a poor immune system. They are researching the diet from Just For Dogs Food. I have started her on the Standard Process Renal Support and I am having a plumber install a reverse osmosis water filter system. She is on a pro-biotic also. She takes pressure meds and I put aluminum hydroxide powder in her food along with Nordic Omega 3. Her Potassium was normal this week but her BUN is back up to 57 and her phosphate is 8. I saw that the sprinkle fiber helps with the nitrogen. How much do you give her? Any other suggestions for the phosphate?

[Shawna]

OH NO!!! Pegripley and Kari K — I’m so sorry I missed your posts!!! My time is somewhat limited and for a long time I wasn’t able to log in to the forum side. Still don’t know why that happened?? If you still having questions please email me at shawnadfaemail@yahoo.com

Kim S – I use the Sprinkle Fiber in conjunction with the Primal Defense probiotic as needed (if Audrey seems depressed, or her breath gets a bit unpleasant etc). Audrey is nine pounds — I give her 1/2 to 1 full sized Primal Defense and 1/8 teaspoon of Sprinkle Fiber. I then give her more Sprinkle Fiber at the same dosage for subsequent meals until she is feeling better (usually, with her, only two or three meals). Audrey gets probiotic foods fairly often so I usually don’t have to give her more than one Primal Defense.

As mentioned in other post — I HIGHLY recommend Standard Process Canine Renal Support as well. And a raw diet if doable. Dr. Barbara Royal created a raw kidney disease diet for Darwins. http://www.darwinspet.com/our-raw-foods/our-raw-dog-food/intelligent-design-ks/#sthash.D8huiK2g.dpbs

[Shawna]

Hi Kim S,

Pugmomsandy sent me an email letting me know you might have some questions for me. Thanks Sandy!!

Nitrogen trapping has been very very useful in helping to keep Audrey feeling well. When her breath gets a bit funky or she seems depressed I give her Garden of Life Primal Defense probiotics and Fiber35 Sprinkle Fiber as the probiotic (both are products marketed for humans). I tried other “fermentable” fibers (like barley, apple pectin etc) but Sprinkle Fiber had the best results.

The product I absolutely MUST have for her however is Standard Process Canine Renal Support. She’s been on it for over seven years. I can explain why I feel so strongly about this product if you wish — kinda technical.

Some other things that I rotate in her diet are spirulina, chlorella, food grade activated charcoal, burdock root (another really good fermentable fiber (but she got tired of the strong taste)), milk thistle and more. I mix five or so super foods/supps with an equal amount of enzymes and sprinkle on most of her meals.

Turmeric would be very beneficial for dogs with kidney disease as well but sadly Audrey doesn’t tolerate it well.

Giving ultra clean (like RO) water is important too. Evian water is both clean and a good source of a specific kind of calcium called calcium bicarbonate. Mineral waters higher in calcium (and lower in sodium) have shown some benefits for kidney disease.

I would recommend raw to any that can feed it, gently home cooked if raw is not an option or canned if raw and home cooked are not options.

Absolutely no chemicals like flea/tick or heartworm meds and no vaccines (including rabies).

I’m not sure how much info you’re wanting so sorry if I went overboard. 🙂 There’s tons more I can tell you if interested (like keep oil soluble chlorophyll on hand in case of anemia).

[Daren S]

Hound Dog mom, thanks for all your info. I am quite confused after reading all this, vet info, breeder info etc. I am trying to choose a great puppy food and, once he’s full grown, a great adult food, preferably cooked frozen ……for my 5 month Bullmastiff puppy.

After all the reading and because I am not a big raw fan (will feed occasionally as a mix in) I think I prefer the cooked frozen diets as they are not as processed as dry kibble. Sounds like I should stick with the Wellness Large Breed dry puppy food (DFA 5 star) until he is full grown. Then maybe switch to a cooked Frozen food like Maverick’s Nature’s Kitchen (DFA 4.5 stars). I will always mix in healthy human foods, to have variety and excitement.

My bully is now 5 months and 80 lbs should grow to about 140 lbs.

Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated. 🙂

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Dori,
They have never had a grain inclusive diet-always fed Pepper grain free.Millie too
Believe me I am so nuts, I see a little wax I go crazy.
Millie is the puppy and she is on the freeze dried raw & then the commercial raw.
Pepper the 11 1/2 y.o. is on the HK with cooked meats or turkey.
I am to much of a scared cat to put pepper on freeze dried or actual commercial raw due to its high fat content-I just think her system couldn’t handle the high fat-She is the 1 with IBD/IBS gastritis issues.
They have never had an oatmeal based shampoo either.
Schnauzers are known to be highly allergic to a great many things. When I first got Pepper 3 yrs ago ,I would cure 1 thing and then a noter thing would pop up.
Thanks for the info.
The girls are driving me crazy no walks today 20 degrees its just warmed up to 30 pepper hasn’t stopped walking around crying.
Stay warm

[Cait Y]

Ok so I have lurked here for a little over a year, and recently started making my own raw cat food via Lisa A. Pierson, DVM because one of my boys almost died after getting into the Dry food AGAIN and his whole GI system blocked up because he cannot handle the lack of fluids in dry food. He is such a picky eater that I had put off the raw diet dreading that he would turn his nose up at it like he did the other high quality raw/semi cooked food I tried buying him. He LOVED the home made food, he even batted off his BFF to eat his food too!
HoundDogMom, other raw feeders please bear with me I know that the whole shebang I know as of now it is 6 pages long. I am trying to paint the whole picture with the dogs, their special needs and what is causing me confusion with the Raw feeding books I have read. There is so much going on right now in my personal life that I am having a very hard time understanding this and if anyone could help point me in the right direction or even a book or website or from experience I would be so very very grateful.
The biggest reservation I have about feeding Raw to the dogs (who LOVED the scoop of homemade cat food I gave them as a test) are the bones and sadly the limited ingredients I can use for my Special Needs Hound.
I have a 14 yr old Walker hound (Forest) who has like no teeth left and was just diagnosed with cushing’s disease but has some pretty abnormal liver tests because of the damage that was done while he went undiagnosed. His liver is so enlarged it displaces his stomach sideways and upwards which makes EASILY digestible food a must. He cannot have food high in phosphorus, copper or ammonia which means little to no red meat and lots of poultry, eggs and pork. He also has problems with chronic Constipation so I would have to be VERY careful about the amount of bone I add to his diet but I also want enough in there to give him the nutrients he needs. Since he is older he also burns a LOT of calories, He is on Vital Fresh pet Turkey or Chicken and gets 1.5 lbs a day. I don’t know what is causing him to burn so many calories except for old age or maybe his body is trying to repair itself – all he does is lounge in the lawn and do his hound dance for food – people or animal whichever he can mac on at the moment lol
My 3 yr old yellow lab (Nova) is also a high calorie burner but she is super active, we do scent tracking, retrieving, and lots of walking/running on the grass. She will go until she drops which I have never seen before, so now I watch her very closely for signs she is over heated. She eats up to 2 lbs of the above dog food a day but is still losing weight on occasion when her activity jumps up again. She has always had double the amount of Eosinophils in her blood that she should at a “normal” rate. She has been checked for parasites so the best I can come up with is that she might have GI issues going on intermittently – she doesn’t transition food gracefully and really doesn’t tolerate even high quality kibble (after research it’s not such a mystery anymore) which is in part what turned me onto Freshpets Vital.
To top it all off I have a Four month old female lab puppy (Ellie) that is still growing. I have her on 2 lbs of Freshpets vital but I am worried that she is not getting something in her diet as well. She has three white lines running across her nails – each nail on every paw. In my experience when the horses have white lines or even indents it means either they were very very sick or have a mineral/vitamin deficiency of some sort. I know when Ellie came to us she had a severe infection of hook and round worms. Her infection was so severe at 8 weeks old that the vet said she would have died untreated – thank you OCD and taking her to the Vet the same day she was brought home lol. They were resistant to the normal worming meds and for 2 months we battled with getting them under control and gone. If Dogs are like horses that would cause the lines because of how sick she was during this (Great going Lemon law Florida) yet I also worry because I know parasites in small animals or even large can cause a huge system imbalance with nutrients which hinders growth.
OK Limited ingredients – because of Forest I have to stick to Chicken, Turkey, and Eggs as a main protein source due to his liver problems and because Rabbit in completely unviable to me unless I want to raise them myself. I have no local butcher – the closest one is three hours away so Chicken and Turkey liver will have to do for organ meat – sometimes I can get chicken hearts once in a blue moon. For Fats I have to choose VERY easily digestible fats from an animal protein because with Forests Liver problems his biliary system can be overloaded very easily and that would be disastrous. Maybe I can add some duck occasionally to his diet?

Copper Issues:
If ammonia restriction is required, feed less red meats and organs since they produce the most ammonia. You may not want to eliminate them entirely though, as they have important nutrients that help with liver function.
Instead, cut back. Feed more poultry, fish, eggs, and pork. If feeding red meat, even in small quantities, buy the absolute best quality you can afford. Preferably grass fed, antibiotic, and hormone free.

Meats generally low in copper are:
• Beef (muscle meat, not organs)
• Eggs
• Turkey (white meat)
• Chicken (white meat)
• Rabbit
• Fish
Meats generally high in copper are:
• Lamb
• Pork
• Pheasant or Quail
• Duck
• Goose
• Salmon
• Organ Meats
When feeding organs for copper issues, some animal livers contain more copper than others. Beef liver is higher in copper than chicken or pork livers. Regardless, the zinc and b vitamins in liver help to reduce the risk of copper toxicity. Though if your dog has an issue with copper, opt for chicken or pork liver. (http://primalpooch.com/raw-feeding-guidelines-dogs-liver-disease/)

I have read Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet and Dr. Pitcairn’s New Complete Guide to Health of Dogs and Cats. I have some major issues with either of the books, UtCaD is so absolute – if you feed this protein then you need this oil. First of all Canola Oil? Corn Oil? Soybean Oil? Walnut oil? Flax and hemp seed oil? I own horses and I would NEVER give them Corn oil with the GMO crap going around I don’t trust Corn or Canola at all. If I am not comfortable feeding to my strict Herbivores I am definitely not OK feeding it to the other animals. By the way the 2,000 lbs animals have had major GI upset from Canola, Corn, Soybean and Flax seed oil. I’ve given it to them in small amounts – 3 tablespoons a day and I have seen a massive systemic effect that made me take them off of it immediately. It was supposed to give them the right ratio of Omega’s 3 and 6 plus help my older guys move and keep weight on since it was winter. The recommended Ratio of 6 to 3 fats are 10:1 to 5:1 for dogs – I have read that small fish or Krill are the best to supplement dogs with because of the low contamination rate and it should not carry Salmon Sickness. Soybean oil is also something I would never give my dogs or humans or anything because of the way it can mimic hormones and interrupt the function of the Thyroid. Also Kelp is recommended a lot, but there are so many negatives that came out during the feeding kelp to horse’s fad that I will not touch the stuff. If it can affect the horses with the amount of iodine to the point horses became toxic I don’t trust the manufactures. It was not that kelp was being fed in large amounts there was absolutely no regulation on what type they harvested or what it contained. Missing link for dogs is a product I am familiar with and they do make it for dogs with trace minerals but it is flax based. Won’t this completely mess up the balancing? Does anyone here feed this instead of kelp?
The Missing Link Ultimate Skin & Coat:
Active Ingredients (per tbsp)
Flaxseed Dried Kelp
Glucosamine Hydrochloride (Vegetarian) Zinc Monomethionine
Freeze Dried Beef Liver Lecithin
Blackstrap Molasses Chromium Yeast
Rice Bran Selenium Yeast
Primary Dried Yeast Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6)
Sunflower Seed Niacin (Vitamin B3)
Dehydrated Alfalfa Garlic Powder
Dried Carrot Yucca Schidigera Extract
Shark Cartilage Powder* Riboflavin (Vitamin B2)
Freeze Dried Fish Protein Powder Thiamine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B1)
Freeze Dried Oyster Powder Folic Acid
Barley Grass Leaves Powder Cobalamin (Vitamin B12)
Guaranteed Analysis Amount
Crude Protein (not less than) 18%
Crude Fat (not less than) 28%
Crude Fiber (not more than) 15%
Moisture (not more than) 10%
Linoleic Acid (Omega 6) 450 mg
**Linolenic Acid (Omega 3) 1000 mg
**Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Cat/Dog food nutrient profiles.

Also if everything is so precise that does not leave room for error such as what if the chickens were raised on Florida soil which is heavy in limestone and deficient in other areas – rather than let’s say somewhere in the bread bowl what about if they were fed a corn based feed and another batch was fed free range? If the meat analysis is different it throws everything off and we all know that meat from south Fl is very different than meat from MI or IN – same principle goes with growing vegetables even organic. How much of a God Factor is there for the abundance of some micronutrients and lack of others? UTCAD also has an abundance of some nutrients way over the NRC guidelines – are dogs different in the fact that they can rid themselves of excess things very easily? I know in humans and horses Vit E and Selenium can be deadly because it builds up in fat and the body doesn’t flush it out like the water-soluble vitamins?
Dr. Pitcairn’s New Complete Guide to Health has a lot of oat meal, rice, beans?! Half and Half milk, whole milk, whole wheat bread corn? That sounds not so great for dogs and especially not for cats like it says it can be. What about kidney beans? With feeding my dogs I have learned they do OK on rice occasionally when they have an upset GI but if they are on a diet with rice too long they get backed up. Also the beans – the dogs seem to have issues with digesting them like people sometimes do – why are there so many carbohydrates? Why cannot I do sprouted microgreens or carrots or even baked potatoes because I know the dogs tolerate those vegetables very well. Also Brewer’s Yeast? Isn’t yeast as a whole bad? It’s in everything and I know Nova already is prone to yeast infections in her ears and when she gets a UTI – Also can Brewer’s yeast cause or attribute to bloat? Milk – isn’t milk products bad if they are in large amounts such as 2 cups milk plus 2 cups rolled oats and 2 eggs and calcium powder? Everything to me seems so skewed.
Also RMB are out of the question – Forest cannot eat them and Nova and Ellie are gulpers – they came from a large litter and it would be just my luck to end up in emergency surgery with one of them. I have a grinder to which I can grind the bone up with the meat and I know the purpose of the bone was for dental health but if I make Meat Jerky and other goodies can I replicate that without worrying about emergency surgery or broken teeth?
Since I own a grinder already for cat food why cannot I grind bones to supplement their food with? So far in my research the basic recipe and consensus I have come across is as follows:
16% Organ meat
10% – 25% Bone
The rest of the food would be muscle meat and muscle meat
Meat is very high in phos and the bone is high in Cal which means the Cal to Phos ratio should be 1.2 to 1.5:1 although 1:1 to 2.5:1 is ok as well. I just need to make sure the dogs consume more Cal than Phos but the question is do I need to add bone meal or can I grind my own bones to supplement?
Here is what the Article analysis the bone content to be in prey animals:
Bone Content In Raw Foods
When sourcing bones for your dog’s diet, it’s a good idea to know the approximate amount of bone in commonly sourced foods. Here is a quick guide to help you keep your dog’s bone content in the right range; between 10% and 25%.
Chicken Whole chicken (not including the head and feet): 25% bone/Leg quarter: 30%/Split breast: 20%/Thigh: 15%/Drumstick: 30%/Wing: 45%/Neck: 36%/Back: 45%/Turkey/Whole turkey: 21%/Thigh: 21%/Drumstick: 20%/Wing: 37%/Neck: 42%/Back: 41%
Pork Feet: 30%/Tails: 30%/Ribs: 30%
Beef Ribs: 52%
Rabbit Whole rabbit (fur and all): 10% Whole (dressed): 25-30%

From this can I remove the proper amount of bones or add more bones in to balance or would you suggest a bone meal powder? Also I have yet to factor in the percentage of vegetable/fruit/microgreens in the recipe – I am just so lost so if HoundDogMom could help or someone else could chime in I would be so grateful. I am trying very hard to learn as much as I can but between the animals and two sick family members and special needs animals by the time I have a moment to sit down I am out like a light for the night or my brain is so frazzled everything looks like it was written in French. Am I over thinking this? I just don’t want to screw Ellie up – she has already had such a bad start with the worm infection – and Forest needs nutrients to rebuild his liver correctly and I wanted to see if this change in diet would help Nova’s Eosinophils come to a normal level. Also has anyone ever seen white lines on every toenail that grows parallel with the skin? Any help would be so appreciated there is just not a lot of room for error with Forest right now with his liver Alt levels 4 times what they are supposed to be. They cannot stay on the Freshpet much longer because to feed the dogs its 19 dollars a day and that’s not a very good long term solution.
Thanks so much everyone~!~ I Hope everyone had a great New Year and wonderful Holiday
`RedMare

[Dori]

Hi Cheryl. I will definitely report back once I’ve received and tried the KBPF. How long have your dogs been on grain free and now on freeze dried raw foods. All three of my dogs suffered from wax, yucky ears. Never smelled or anything like that but they were yeasty brownish and gunky. Sometimes they would shake their heads but mostly they were always scratching their ears. None of them had ear infections because I had them all checked out. I had to clean all of their ears every day to try to keep up with it. Once I removed all grains, soy, corn, rice and all poultry (fowl) from their diets their ears cleared up within a matter of weeks on their own. Now that they are on raw foods none of those issues have ever returned. Another thing I did was switch shampoos. I had always been told that if you had a talk with allergies you should use an oat meal shampoo. Well, that is really very wrong. Oatmeal may be soothing to humans but if you are allergic to grains, oatmeal being one of them, you cannot bath your dogs with oatmeal shampoos. I didn’t know any better at the time. Poor Katie. I was constantly bathing her with oatmeal based shampoos because of all of her allergies. Along with her food intolerances and sensitivities she also has environmental allergies. I couldn’t figure out why nothing was working until a light bulb went on over my head and I thought….DUH????? So I switched and she’s all good. It’s been a while since I had to use any particular ear cleaner now I just make sure to put cotton balls in their ears for bathing and then dry them out after bathing. The one ear cleaner called Clean Ear by 21st Century for Pet Health cleans & dissolves was build up. That one worked pretty well actually. You just squirt a little in their ears, massage it in, then they’ll shake their heads and then I would dry out their ears. You have to do it on a regular basis until their new diets kick in and it stops happening. I haven’t had to use it in years but I’m sure it must still be around. There are other over the counter products like that also of course that would work the same way.

[Kristin C]

Hi Dori – Thank you. One of my dog’s is sensitive so think I am going to pass on the Steve’s for now. I have some Primal beef coming to try. I’ll be interested to know how Better In The Raw goes for you. It has real food in it so it interests me.

It’s 0 degrees here in CT! The dog’s get a little nutso on these days when I’d rather not be outside. My beagle/Aussie has gone from slug to supercharged in the last year since changing her diet so it can be a challenge with the weather.

[Bobby dog]

Cheryl:
I hear you about being cautious! I have tried transitioning my dog to a few raw meals per week, but he just doesn’t care for it. Commercial raw he will eat, not prey model. That is why I am interested in home cooked.

I also tried to introduce RMB’s to him and he just buries them in the yard. Several posters feed chic and turkey necks. It just depends on your comfort level and your dog. Weight bearing bones are not recommended because of their density, your dog could crack a tooth. There is allot of info about RMB’s & raw diets in the forums. Here is a recent RMB thread, check it out and ask away. I unfortunately will not be much help with your RMB questions!
/forums/topic/rmbs-and-recreational-bones/

[debra r]

I have a 4 year old Miniature poodle who has never had any issues with allegries. But the past 6-8 months hes had outs of skin rashes and now he constantly naws at his groin area to the point of making it raw. At first i thought it was seasonal outdoor allergies, but now it’s winter and he is still so itchy and rashy. The vet gave me a steroid which does help, but i only give it to him when he gets really bad because i don’t like giving him steroids. I want to figure out the root cause. I have been adding omega 3 capsules to his food and Use Canine Life home made muffins (i make them with the mix and my own ingredients) which is his wet food once a day. I have had him on Wellness Complete Health for years and never had any issues with it, but i think this may be the cause. I want to change his dry food but am having a hard time deciding which brand to change it to. The vet is pushing the Ultra Low Allergen Hills Z/D prescription diet, but i feel its lacking nutrients and is super expensive. Any ideas or brands someone could recommend. I just want my pup to stop itching and want to give him a nutrient dense diet… Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

[aimee]

Hi Lisa,

So sorry to hear about your lab: ( Increased BUN from diet is tied into protein but it sounds like your dog isn’t eating a lot of protein. Rawhide is a source of protein, but he is off those now. Any other high protein chews you give him consistently? Rawhide contributes calories too so hope the weight loss is from eliminating those from the diet vs something else.

Another source of protein that your vet probably already considered is from bleeding into the gut. This may or may not show up on a regular blood count. A rectic count in addition to the normal blood counts could be done to make sure that constant regeneration isn’t going on.

If this still could be kidney problems from a diet perspective controlled phosphorus levels are recommended in kidney disease. Phosphorus parallels protein which is likely where the rec to avoid high protein comes from.

Sounds like more diagnostics will be needed to sort this out.

[aimee]

Hi Kristin,

My dogs primarily eat commercial pet food along with some home cooked. The home cooked I add is primarily vegetables… all the colors of the rainbow, along with some lean meat. Primarily the home cooked is from my dinners but occasionally I’ll steam and puree large batches of veggies and cook meats specifically for them and freeze it to use as needed.

In regards to vets recommending consults if you are home cooking, I think all vets have a duty to recommend that the diet be evaluated to ensure the needs are being met. In fact I’d think they open themselves up to malpractice if they don’t make that recommendation. Similarly, if raw feeding, they have a duty to inform of the parasite and infectious disease risk. This is needed not only for the health of the patient but also extends to public health. Vets won’t get in trouble with AVMA, that has nothing to do with it, but they can lose their license and a huge chunk of change if they are sued if a person in the home comes down with illness traced back to the dog’s raw diet and it isn’t documented in the record that they advised against it. In fact just had a conversation about this at the vet. The CDC was involved, there was an outbreak of Salmonella in the household, 3 children were ill. Same strain in the raw food as in the dog’s poop as in the children. Thankful he had it documented in the record that he discussed risk with owners and advised against raw food.

[Lisa R]

My 7 year old chocolate lab has had a rising BUN count in his blood. His creatinine level is increasing very slightly, not proportionally in the manner the vet would expect if if we’re kidney disease. Additionally, his BUN continued to go up on RX kidney food and meds. The vet is baffled and doesn’t understand what the issue is.

I think it’s related to his diet in some way. He has always been, as my vet called him, a “fat magnet” since we rescued him 3 years ago. He gained a ton of weight very quickly when he first came to us, despite never being fed table food, etc, and continued to gain on small servings of RX diet food (from not quite 80 lbs to over 100). Currently he is on a very low quantity of weight mgmt IAMS, supplemented with green beans to fill him up. He was losing very little, very slowly and finally showed a big decrease in weight when we eliminated rawhide from his diet (unless it’s kidney disease and it just happens to coincide with the elimination of rawhide).

I think there is some dietary issue and he needs a different kind of food or supplement….maybe there is some intolerance for food we are feeding him and he needs grain free or salmon or freeze dried or something…but I don’t know what to try. The vet is advising against anything high protein in case he does have kidney problems but I’ve reqd every that is not necessarily a factor in kidney isses for dogs. But she doesn’t know what we should try.

Any thoughts?

[theBCnut]

Oh brother!! High protein does not cause hip dysplasia, no matter what bogus ideas you have come up with to try and explain your point of view. Try doing a little actual research on the current studies into the causes of hip dysplasia. Try starting with Dr Larsen, but don’t stop there.

Then go to your own dentist and ask what causes plaque build up on teeth. He should tell you that it is caused by starch in the diet. If he says anything else, get a new dentist. Kibble is 30% or MORE starch. Kibble fed dogs have to get their teeth cleaned just as much as other dogs and more than raw fed dogs, which are eating a HIGH protein diet.

No dogs don’t have to have high protein diets, but they don’t have to have starch at all. Replacing so much of what constitutes a natural diet for a dog with starchy kibble should not make sense to anyone. It’s like saying people should live off cereal bars and nothing else.

[Elizabeth A]

I’ve been ordering strictly pastured, organic meat and poultry deliverd to my home through http://www.uswellnessmeats.com for my family’s consumption. They also sell “pet burgers” which is mixed raw organ meats/ muscle meat that comes from solely pastured, organic animals. It is raw, delivered frozen in 1 lb bags, costing about $5 a pound. I give it to my older dachshund as a treat to supplement his canned Wellness diet. He loves it! I think it releases his “inner wolf.” haha Just wondering if anyone else has come across this product. They also sell pastured beef bones of varying sizes with the marrow. Some of their beef comes from Tasmania/New Zealand where the air/pasture/water purity is high. Just passing it on. My doxie is a rescue dog I’ve had since he was 4 and now turning 16–still full of life!

[pmsuperstar84]

LeahT, I live in Lexington and work at a holistic pet health store. We do special orders all the time for stuff we don’t stock on the floor. In fact, I special order my cat’s raw diet from one of our distributors. I know there are a tiny handful of stores like us in the state but they should be able to order as well. What were you looking for?

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Aimee,
I just read your post on THK & need a pre-mix for my schnauzer as she cannot digest kibble,
I thought THK was the best, but if nutritionally it won’t be adequate for her, can you suggest something better.
I do top it off with lightly cooked ground turkey breast or low fat beef-she seems to be doing ok with keeping the food down. I have tried all in the grain-free line except the beef.
we have been transiting very slowly.
Now I worry she will not be getting the proper nutrient profile if she continues to eat this.
I am not a great fan of canned food, that’s why I thought this was the one.
My other choice is the Royal Canin Vet diet hydrolyzed protein. Urghh.
Freeze dried or raw is not an option due to her other health issues.
thank you in advance for any info you can give me.

[jakes mom]

Just when I’m thinking about trying to put Jake on raw meat and dinner mixes I find out I can’t get SSLL. What are your opinions on the Honest Kitchen mixes? Price wise and quality wise? And which one? There are 3 to choose from. He’s a 30ish# beagle/bassett mix with no allergy issues or anything, I’m just thinking about better food for him. I’ve upgraded his kibble since I found this site altho I’m glad to know at least I was never giving him the 1 or 2 star stuff! Also added RMBs which he loves, but I’m not quite ready have a freezer full of bunny and quail. So I thought meat and the mix would be a good compromise if it’s not terribly pricey. Would that be comparable to a bag of 4star kibble? I’m betting he might drop a pound or 2 on the new diet, too, which would be good for him. He’s gained a couple of pounds since my other dog went to the bridge, Mom’s overcompensating I guess.

[Kristin C]

One of my dog’s ate her poo for the first 4 years. She was on Blue Buffalo (puppy, then wilderness). We switched her to a raw diet last year, along with the occasional Orijen kibble and she no longer eats it. From what I’ve read the flavors in kibble don’t digest and so poop tastes just like kibble to some dogs. Unless your clients are willing to change diet then picking it up right away is about your only option.

[Dori]

Hi Barbara. Sorry I haven’t chimed in sooner, it’s been a very busy day. As I’ve mentioned to you before, it has been a very long road to achieving a quality to Katie’s life. My favorite and most trusted commercial raw foods are: Primal Raw Formulas (the formulas are the only one of their foods that are complete and balanced), Nature’s Variety Instinct Raw Foods, Answer’s Detailed Raw Foods (a bit difficult to find but any pet store that carries their raw goats milk should be able to order in the food for you), OC Raw, Stella & Chewy’s (I go back and forth with my feelings about the taste of their food for my dogs but as a company they are top notch), Vital Essential Raw, Nature’s Logic Raw. With all of this said I continue to always be on the look out and continue to tweak Katie’s diet. The companies that I mentioned are the ones that I feel very confident and comfortable with feeding to my dogs; but you always have to be on the look out that if any of these foods you feed to your dog don’t agree with them, look for different ingredients in the foods that may be the culprit. Katie cannot have any fowl whatsoever. Sometimes a food may be labeled “bison”. Please make sure that there is no other animal protein in the food. Sometimes some companies will add chicken fat, turkey fat, or some poultry to up their protein requirements for their label. Also some companies may have an over abundance of peas or some other ingredient which may bother your dogs. I have not found that to be the case with any of the above mentioned companies and foods. I do have to be careful which foods from these different companies I feed my dogs because Katie cannot have poultry of any sort, duck, lamb, quail. I stay away from all those. The only kibble that is fed to my dogs on very rare occasions is Nature’s Logic Kibble. They are not strictly a grain free food because their formulas contain millet which is a pseudo grain. For some bizarre reason Katie, who cannot tolerate any grain whatsoever, doesn’t seem to have any reaction to millet. It started out as an error on my part. I thought Nature’s Logic was a grain free food. It wasn’t after some time that I found it contained millet which I didn’t realize it was grain free. I was looking for a kibble that she might be able to eat because my husband who, on the rare occasion has to feed my dogs, is very squeamish and hubby is a bit on the lazy side, and just wants to be able to scoop a food and pour into their bowls. It doesn’t happen often because I don’t like feeding them kibble. Anyway, if I can be of further help please ask away and I will do my best to answer any and all questions that I can.

Just a quick add on to my post is that I do rotate brands, proteins within brands, etc. etc. My very favorite of all commercial raw foods is Primal. Without a doubt I have no qualms about recommending Primal Formulas. Primals Pronto Formulas are also an easy way for you to transition into commercial raw feeding because they are small little bits that you can scoop out frozen and put in bowls and wait till they soften (approx. 15 minutes) and then feed. I have three dogs…..5 lb. Yorkipoo, 6 lb. Maltipoo and a 7.3 lb. 15 year old Maltese. They have been eating these high protein, moderate to high fat, low carb foods for approx. 3 years. None have developed any issues from eating high protein, moderate to high fat foods. Many will scare people into believing that some foods have too much fat to feed dogs. It’s not the quantity of the fat or the protein for that matter, it is the quality of the fats and proteins in the foods. Huge Huge difference. As I’ve said, I have spent years figuring all this out, researching ingredients, companies, supplements in the foods and I’m very confident that I feed my girls high quality foods with high quality ingredients from companies that I trust implicitly and companies that, to my knowledge and investigation, have never had recalls.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 3 months ago by Dori.

[DogFoodie]

Hi Barbara,

Yes, I would suggest that you go back to square one and complete a proper elimination diet. Did you conduct your elimination diet using veterinary guidance? Here’s an article that will give you an idea of what your elimination diet should look like: http://communityvet.net/2010/03/diy-elimination-diet-for-the-dog-an-cat/

Elimination diets take a long time, many months, in fact; and require strict discipline. If your diet wasn’t conducted like the one in the article, it’s time to reconsider starting fresh.

You’ve mentioned some other items that your dog cannot have that you didn’t originally mention. Were those ingredients that you unearthed or did they show up on your dog’s allergy test?

Once you’ve identified his allergies, you can safely begin looking for foods. A raw diet, either homemade or commercial is great, but not if it contains any of his allergens. You could consider looking at Rayne customized diets, if you’re unable to find a commercial diet that meets your requirements or are not comfortable making home-prepared meals that contain none of his allergens, and are most importantly, properly balanced.

[Akari_32]

Food for the next 72 days!

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/Akari53/9ED9755D-F378-42C5-8076-CDC2820623C0_zpsinsoiy6d.jpg

The single 5.5 oz cans on the left are for raw in the morning and and a can at night. The rest of the meals are 3oz cans in the morning and 5.5 oz cans at night. Two funny combinations that’s happened during sorting:

Wellness in the morning, 9Lives at night:

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/Akari53/63C91AD6-7959-41F4-B1EE-4B00423A09AF_zps90rbtcqp.jpg

And raw in the morning and Friskies Sausesations at night:

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/Akari53/BBD4B1CC-ADCF-4DAC-8021-A5D1ED5F6BF3_zpsfmr8rsvk.jpg

I can’t decide which is worse LOL Only at my house…. Both of these are the last cans, Btw. I try to spread out the super junk as much as I can, that why I still have these. The rest of his food is good, though! Or at least decent for the most part lol

Halo Impulse, Wellness, Authority Flaked Turkey, some sort of Blue Buffalo Healthy Gourmet, Newmans Own, Sheba, my two selected Friskies Special Diet and Fancy Feast varieties each. Oh, and some Insticnt Pride. I think there may be one more, but I’m not sure… lol

[Barbara P]

Thank you DORI, DOGFOODIE and KAREN, for your input. DF – I have tried an elimination diet but continually changing ingredients was hard on his bowels (and my carpets) when I was working. I retired in June and am now trying to address his food and behavior concerns. Are you recommending that I go back to that after investing the expense of the allergy testing? Do you think this would this be helpful to me, or would it be better for him to try the commercial raw/ homemade/freeze dried as Dori recommended. I believe you mentioned you have a golden too and they are know for this. KAREN – Thank you for the info about the kibble. From that statement I deduce that the reason he is turning prematurely white in the face since beginning the latest kibble must be the starch, would you agree? DORI – It sounds like you have been through with your Katie, everything I have with my Colby. I know nothing about how to make homemade meals that are complete and balanced, and am worried about choosing raw foods that might not be. Do you use a certain brand or do you mix them up?

[Akari_32]

You guys know I’m always on the look out for a deal, and to better the dogs diets at the same time. I was surfing around and came across Hare Today. I know several of you guys use it, so I decided to check it out.

I’ve figured out that I need to keep it at $3.89 and less, to keep the price competitive to what I am doing now, which is See Spot Live Longer, and sale meats (lots of sale whole roaster/frier chickens @.@). Which should be easy, I think.

However, what is shipping like? Is there a “free shipping when you spend so much” deal they do? I need to stick with less than $30 a month. If it needs to be bought in bulk, thats fine with me. Shipping is a huge factor on this right now.

What makes me really like this idea, though is that the prices are cheaper than in store (which means nothing if shipping is too much lol), and I can get Bentley more than mass amounts of chicken, because the variety here sucks. Its either chicken, beef, chicken, pork, chicken, maybe some random organ someone ordered at Publix but never picked up, more chicken… Everything but the chicken and some pork is just so pricey, $5 a pound and up! I’m thinking he is still having problems with chicken though, because even though he’s been on raw for some time now, he still breaks out and gets red and itchy and yeasty at times. I know the grass and rain and other pollens has something to do with it, but I can’t help but wonder if completely cutting out chicken would help him even more, or maybe cutting out the pre-mix, if its something in the SSLL.

If I can cut out the SSLL, are the meat/organ/bone grinds on Hare Today balanced? Like this beef blend, for example?

“Ground Beef/Organs/Tripe/Bone, 5 lb $19.20

Hormone and antibiotic free beef. This is approximately 80% meat, 7% tripe, 7% organ [heart,liver, lung, and kidneys] and 6% bone.
Fine Ground

This food is low in Sodium. It is also a good source of Vitamin B6, Phosphorus, Zinc and Selenium, and a very good source of Protein and Vitamin B12”

I would think yes, but I figured I’d make sure. According to the calculator, he’d only need about 3.84 oz. He currently gets a 5 oz chunk of whatever meat I give him and SSLL, and a little coconut oil because the princess won’t lap up the SSLL anymore without the coconut oil, or a good deal of blood from the meat. Rotten little dog lol

Also, since I’m considering cutting chicken from his diet, should I also cut out other birds, and stick with beef, pork and maybe fish? He didn’t really like fish based kibbles when he was a puppy, and he’s not a huge fan of fish oil, but maybe he’d like raw fish? The whole sardines or anchovies, or whatever they were, on Hare Today are right in my price range at $3.85 a pound, and I know whole fishes are balanced meals. I’d also like if you guys that know the site better than I do to recommend some goodies that are in my feeble price range. Mixes of meats to make balanced meals are also good, as well. Just keep the average price per pound in my price range 🙂

As far as bones and RMB, I can just get those in store, I think. Some prices are cheaper at Publix than Hare Today, so I’ll price shop for bones first before deciding where I’ll buy them.

I’d also like to know if there are any other sites like this that may be cheaper, or have other things. I’m also looking at complete freeze-dried and dehydrated meals, if anyone can recommend any that are going to be about $30 or less a month for an 8 pound dog.

Thanks a bunch guys!

[Susan]

DogFoodie, peas are high in Lectins like lima, beans, sweet peas, cow peas, potatoes, tomatoes, lentils, sweet potatoes, the list goes on..

Barbara, I found sweet potatoes & potatoes made my boys ears itch, he would shake & shake his head while walking, scratch & scratch his ears, I had to do a elimination diet to find out what foods made him itch scratch & have diarrhoea.. its worth it in the end..

Like Dori said the best is either home cooked, commercial raw or freeze dried..
kibble is the worst to feed as it has starchy ingredients that bind the kibble….

[DogFoodie]

I think it seems odd that the same thing is happening to both dogs at the same time.

Any chance of changing to a different brand of commercial raw or even a home cooked diet?

I have no first hand experience with UTIs or crystals, but wondered if something was going on with one of my dogs when she started licking herself, so I started both of my dogs on Mercola Bladder Support. The batch that Mercola is shipping expires in February, so I’d wait until they have a fresh batch on hand if you decide to consider it.